Yellowstone Actress Jen Landon, Reunites with Her Former Therapist to Discuss her Eating Disorder Recovery

In this candid and moving conversation, Yellowstone and Grey's Anatomy actress Jen Landon opens up about the hidden complexity of eating disorders, childhood trauma, recovery, and the surprising ways identity, perfectionism, and performance can intertwine. Host and previous therapist to Jen, Carolyn Costin, brings her expertise as an eating disorder therapist to a raw and compassionate discussion about what it really takes to heal — not just physically, but emotionally and relationally. 

Jen shares how her relationship with food became a coping mechanism for overwhelming feelings, a sense of responsibility she carried from childhood, and the pressure of being seen in a body that was deeply connected to her sense of worth off-camera. Together, they explore how disordered eating can feel like control while actually taking control away, why recovery often begins with the smallest possible steps, and how learning to “trade up” to slightly less harmful choices can create lasting change.

The conversation also touches on the role of treatment, the importance of being met with honesty and structure, and the value of seeing the healthy part of a person even when the disorder is loudest. Jen reflects on how acting, ranch work, and the physical demands of her role on Yellowstone unexpectedly helped her reconnect with her body in a more grounded way. This episode is practical, humorous and profoundly human, offering hope to anyone struggling with an eating disorder, supporting someone who is, or trying to understand how healing actually happens.

About Jen Landon:
Jen Landon is a 3x consecutive Daytime Emmy winner who played “Teeter” on Taylor Sheridan’s Yellowstone on Paramount Network. She also appeared in Jason Retiman’s The Front Runner, Max Barbakow’s Brothers, as well as numerous television shows including Animal Kingdom, FBI: Most Wanted, Banshee, Helstrom (Marvel), The Orville, Chicago Med, The Resident and House MD. 

Follow Jen Landon on Instagram 

Jen Landon on IMDB

Thank you for listening. Please take a minute to review our helpful links and resources below.

Important Links:

Learn about the Carolyn Costin Institute

Apply to become a CCI Certified Recovery Coach

Follow the CCI Institute on Instagram

Subscribe to Carolyn's YouTube Channel

RECEIVE 20% OFF your purchase of the 8 Keys to Recovering from an Eating Disorder (book).

Recovery Resources and Support:

The National Eating Disorder Association (NEDA)

Project Heal

National Association of Anorexia Nervosa and Associated Disorders (ANAD)

Carolyn's Bio: 

Carolyn Costin is a world-renowned eating disorder clinician, author, and speaker. Recovered from anorexia, she pioneered the belief that full recovery is possible. Founder of Monte Nido, she transformed treatment with a holistic, home-based model. She later founded the Carolyn Costin Institute, training coaches and clinicians worldwide. She has authored six books, ...

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Welcome to Becoming Recovered, Body and Soul, a podcast not only for individuals struggling with eating disorders and body image issues, but for loved ones and professionals trying to help them. I'm Carolyn Coston. I recovered from an eating disorder in my teens and have spent the last few decades helping countless others do the same. Through my work as a therapist, my books, the treatment centers I founded, and now my institute where I train and certify eating disorder coaches, I've become an internationally recognized expert. But this podcast is about bringing in the real experts. People from all walks of life who, like me, became recovered themselves. They will be here to provide insights, discuss their journey, and inspire you on yours. This podcast is intended for educational purposes only and is not a replacement for professional therapy or treatment. Please understand that we mostly avoid what might be unnecessarily triggering content, but this is a real show about the reality of eating disorders and recovery. So there is a chance something might be personally triggering. If you're struggling, please reach out to a qualified provider for support. You can also check our resource list. Hello, everybody, all the listeners and viewers. Welcome to Becoming Recovered, Body and Soul. This episode's quote, here we go. Tension is who you think you should be, and relaxation is who you are. And my guest today epitomizes this. She's unapologetically herself, you'll see. Uh, when I first met her, she was looking for herself in all the wrong places and ended up in treatment with me for an eating disorder. And though you might know her from one of her roles she plays, today you're going to meet the lovely human being she truly is. I'm so happy to have her here with me today. Welcome, Jennifer Landon. Hi. Which many of you know as let me see if I get this right. Tater.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

That's pretty much how I said it. Is that pretty good? Yeah. I'm also like kind of loving this role reversal because like now you're like there isn't like a performance element to this. So now like you're stepping into that. So like you have to guide me. Right. That's what I'm saying. Like there's a I love when that happens. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I mean, this was I what was it, 25 years ago? I was gonna ask you you anticipating my questions. I have when was it? It was I was 18, so I think it well, like they know how old I am.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

It's obviously 20 it was 24 years ago. So just would you remind me what how you made it to my office? How did that happen? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Well, I got I got real sick and people took notice eventually. That I know that and and you know, I don't even know if it how it all came about because I was in New York in college, and then I came home. Well, this is this is interesting. I came home and I was thin, but I would I this is I actually want to talk about this at some point, which is like using weight as a barometer for illness. Right, because I was can do it, right? I was thinner than I had been, but I oddly wasn't quite as sick as I was like six months prior, but I was binging and purging so much, which I had stopped doing, but my weight had dipped a bit. But I suddenly got suddenly my weight is what made people go, Oh, you're sick, even though I had been begging for help earlier. It happens all the time. Yeah, I'd been really, I went to adults and was like, I went to I people in my family, I went to teachers in college and was like, there's something wrong. I'm sick. I have I'm doing things with food that are harmful and not okay. And they're like, You look fine.

SPEAKER_02 4:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

And I was like, No, I'm not well, but my weight suddenly, and maybe I was manipulating it without knowing it just for this reason because my words weren't getting across. So my mom took note that I was quite thin, and I was.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Maybe she found me out here in Malibu, and we were both my practice was here and yeah, and all that.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

And then I did what like anyone with a real good eating disorder would do, which was like once it was like you're gonna go to treatment. I was like, Well, then I'm gonna get real sick.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Custer's last stance. Yeah, you kidding. I was like, I'm not gonna, I'm going for it.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Yeah, yeah, because they're gonna take it away anyway. And yeah, or like I'm not that whole thing, which I think people talk about. I actually have an adult male friend. I'm so proud of him. He's seven and a half years older than me. I love him so much. I tried to adopt him. Turns out it's real hard to adopt some people. I would think so. I love him. He is like my son, though, but he just went and got treatment for an eating disorder. Oh, wow. And he had that thing where like I'm not sick enough. Sick enough. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

Yeah, a really good friend of mine, Jen Gadiani. She's actually going to be on the show. She has a book. She's a medical doctor, but she has a book called Sick Enough. I was gonna say because it's so common that people are not necessarily in denial they have a problem, but they look out there and they think other people are sicker than they are. And the weight thing is part of it. It is actually, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

I the the yeah, totally. The not the not sick enough really is like such is such a such a thing. But I remember you saying to me one time, oh no, you're sick enough. I would, yeah, yeah. And you said it like that. And I like believe I trusted that I believed you. I don't know if I would have believed you if you would have been like, you're sick enough. You know what I mean? Like you was clear.

SPEAKER_02 5:57

Oh, okay, good. Yeah, I like that. Well, I'm gonna I want to get into the treatment. I have some questions about family stuff, and anyway, but first, I, you know, I I think most people are gonna know who you are, but I want to know a little bit about this character you play because I want to know about you, because I knew you before. And what what stuff about her is like you and what is not like you? And what did you I wonder? Because of course, knowing and you get really famous and everything, and I'm watching, and I think what parts of you did you manifest in that character to bring her alive because she's so um, you know, that I think what I think it's the number one cable show watched in the US, and people loved that this character.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Yeah, it was it is like I think it was the ratings were just insane, and I think I think they still are.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

And you were a big part of that, and you created this badass cowgirl thing, which I didn't really know. Well, I knew you were a badass, I but not like that. Maybe you did. I didn't.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

I knew that I was feral, like I think. Well, you know what I mean? Like I really am. Oh, I know, yeah. I'm still oh, I remember there is something fair. I mean, I was raised with like a lot of dogs, and then I think like a little isolation, like I still be outside, like smooth my dogs, you know. But I always felt like that character really was on the page, and I thought I was just doing exactly what was on the page, even um when I auditioned for it. But but I think I didn't apparently I brought a lot to it for my book.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Yeah, I mean, I I can't you think of a lot of people that could read that page and do it way differently.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Totally. I think I probably am unique in the fact that, and I don't know what this is about, I don't think a lot of actors are willing to like look like I feel not in life, but when I'm acting for whatever reason, like the more permission I have to be ugly, the more attractive I feel. I don't know how to explain it. And so like raw and just yeah, just you know what I mean. Like like brass, funky, you know, a little funk. Yeah, and um, but that character, and then that job more than any other job, was I basically was like live action role-playing. Like Tay my boss really wanted us to do everything that we were doing, and so I don't know if you guys you had to learn a lot then, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:29

I mean, you weren't really roping cows before no that I could I couldn't ride a horse. I mean, that's a big I could sing. No, it was it is and it's key. Well, this is what I mean. Badass. Who does that? Not many people do that. You know, most people don't give themselves credit for the things they do, and yeah, and that's a little bit what's happening now because honestly, what you know, I'm proud of myself.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

Okay. I've I one of the purest experiences of feeling proud of myself, like that I have ever felt was, and I still was never excellent at it, but I didn't know how to ride a stick horse when I went into the show. And there was riding and then roping a cow, and roping a cow has many moving parts for somebody who grows up doing it, no, but for somebody who doesn't, you lose a finger really easily. Yeah, I can imagine really easily or other body parts, yeah. Finger, especially. I mean, no, really, like a lot of people it pulls right off. So when you go and you catch, and if you're doing it really fast, like in a team roping, when you dally around the horn, if you get your fingers caught up in that, oh, in any way, when you go to turn, it's just yeah, clean off. So okay. And so I work, and the last season, especially, because I really wanted to pull it off, and I don't think I ever got one clean turned for the healer, but still, it was better than it went really well that day. But I worked my butt off, and I was so proud of the progress I had made, even though it wasn't perfect. I it's one of the I really was so proud of myself, and I had so much fear.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

I look at that and I think about the things you did, and of course, the show is about well, the show is about um, I'm trying to get people in all different walks of life. So I'm not just interviewing people in the eating disorder field, I'm interviewing people in their fields who also had an eating disorder. Totally. But I do want to be um, I want other listeners out there who are struggling to think about, and and here's something that sort of coincides. Um, think about you you did these things, you're proud of yourself. Are you proud of yourself for getting out of the eating disorder? Do you think of that too?

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Yeah, I am really proud of myself, but I also feel like so much of my recovery was about dumb luck. Okay, say talk about it. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'd like to be like, I'm so proud of my like with roping. I I also had dumb luck. I had great teachers and I was given a bunch of resource. But see, I see you're just gonna say that about a lot of things. No, well, I mean, I can be really proud of myself.

SPEAKER_02 11:04

Wait a minute, and dumb luck. You you got me as a therapist, so you that's not dumb.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Really good luck. But do you know what I mean? Like I had the so I because I thought about this because I was thinking about like, oh, like there's no part of me that's like, well, I recovered and like other people, you know, like because I did something right. Okay, good point. I was lucky enough. I probably had disordered eating starting really young. I mean, it certainly should have been there. I had a pretty lot of circumstances, pretty funky childhood. But like I got sick later than some people, you know, like I wasn't 12. Like I could cry thinking about one of the people I was in treatment with.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

And I just am going to for something.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

That's all right. I cry all the time. It is sad.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

It's so sad. Um the person I'm thinking of Aaron. Yeah, she got sick. Really young. Yeah, nine, I think. And so I was lucky enough that I feel like I knew it like life felt like underneath me enough beforehand. It was like a before. And so when it hit and suddenly, you know, it was like I was playing around with food, and then it hadn't suddenly it had me on the chain and had full control. Like it was such a drastic shift.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

And so that even going into recovery, I had such a sense of a before.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

So I was like, I have to get over there. So I would call that you could connect with a healthy self. You could connect. There was one still there, even though the eating disorder ego state or whatever takes over, you could connect with that part of you.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

And then I was lucky to get you, right? Like I think I can really imagine where if I and I think a lot of people with eating disorders are particularly sharp. They're smart. And I think that if I had gotten a therapist and I've, you know, I I don't stay with any of these therapists, but I've met a lot of therapists who are really nice, but they don't have an edge that I can kind of bump into. Well, you definitely needed an edge.

SPEAKER_02 13:18

Yeah. But if I didn't You needed somebody who was directive. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

And if I not just how do you feel about this? Right. But a lot of people aren't lucky enough to come across that, you know, or they don't have access to it, they don't have resources for that. Exactly. I would pick my eating disorder any day over that.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I do. Well, look, one of the things I do when I train therapists is talk to them about it's nice to be empathic and understanding, but if you don't challenge that person, if you don't be get the be the authority figure sometimes, yeah, they're not and make them uncomfortable, they're not going to grow. But therapists aren't trained to do that. Right. Eating disorder therapists, more so totally. Yes. So let's talk about your family a little bit. Okay, yeah. Your your father died, yeah, and he was young, and you were very young when it happened. And you felt uh, I remember, yeah, really responsible uh for things and a lot for your mom. And I I mention that for this reason. A lot of people I see, especially people who get anorexia, even if they have binge purge type anorexia, there's something about they have uh, and and especially at an early age, a heightened sense of responsibility, but they're not in a position of power to change things. Right. And it's really interesting because that responsibility becomes connected to a lot of other things, like over-responsibility, about you know, all different things. So I just wonder what you thought about that.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

The thing that was coming to mind while you were talking was that I don't know if it felt as much like responsibility as what it felt like was that everybody around you is having huge feelings that felt really chaotic. Yeah, I bet. And I don't know why I felt this way, but even as a kid, they felt slightly irresponsible. Some people were expressing feelings. And so as a young person, there's the there was like a counterweight of because it was all so noisy out here that there was a real repression of feeling, or like to like almost being just like the weight in the middle of of chaos. And I don't I don't think I felt I think my responsibility with my mother and where like that really came in was like because she had suffered loss, right? I don't think I felt free to hurt her feelings the way a kid kind of needs to hurt the feelings of the parent.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

Well, a kid uh definitely doesn't need to not be the one to pr have to protect it.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

The feelings, yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

So I mean, I just I'm just trying to look at things because I like to share for viewers what are pieces of the puzzle, not that I think, and I'll say straight out that I said a lot of times, you don't have to know all the reasons you got sick to get better. Right. But I think there are many pieces to the jigsaw puzzle, and I wonder what you think of as yours. And when I thought about that responsibility without power, I just see that so much. I had it too. Right. And I see that so much. I wondered what you thought about that.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Totally like the parentified child, basically. Yeah, 100%. I mean, it it makes it just makes so much sense. It does especially you're having fe you're taking care of somebody else's feelings, they're not really taking care of your feelings, right? And so, like, of course, you're gonna work out your feelings with like an inanimate object, basically, and it just happens to be food or like whatever happens to be the thing that you pick up.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

Yeah, I think it was a few things, you know, and your eating disorder morphed in different ways.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Totally roaming addiction, dysfunction, and in di in different ways.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

But to go back to the thing about like uh, did you say why or like the many pieces of your jigsaw puzzle? And I'm gonna go back to things you did to get out of it because I know maybe I totally maybe using the word uh were you proud you recovered, we got off track. But I do want to know what are things you think you had to do, what are things you had to overcome? Because there are a lot of things you have to do to get out of it, and it does take effort and it does take will. And of course, you know, I believe people can be recovered, and I always said that to you, but I want people to hear different people like you experience of what are some things that are your jigsaw puzzle that got you in, and what are some things that you think helped you get out?

SPEAKER_01 18:01

I think that if I there were a lot of feel like it that eating disorder came up, I think, in reaction to suddenly like a rush of feeling that I wasn't prepared to deal with around things that happened when I was even younger. I think if I would have had those feelings around the time that they happened or had been conscious of what was going on as a little, little kid, I don't think I'd be alive, period. I don't think I would have got it. I really don't. Um I think that food is really accessible, right? If you're not a rebellious, I wasn't a rebellious kid. Like, you know, teenagers, like alcohol, yeah, drugs, whatever, all that stuff. Like I kind of would like force myself. It was an easy way to act out. Yep, it was there, it was available. Um, I have genetic OCD, right? I totally have an OCD brain. Um, then you know, I've got so hang on for a second.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

So once you get uh just for the audience view, um once you uh I mean OCD is really it's obsesses compulsive disorder. And once you get into something, it's almost like you do it a couple times and then it's like a ritual, then you then you keep doing it. Can't stop. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

I just want to say so. It was that was a major part of my eating disorder, was like calorie counting. Yeah, crazy. Um, I think that you have complex trauma from childhood, right? Like not necessarily even, you know, I think there's some awareness now around CPTSD where it's not like you had some horrible incident. And and I would even say that let me say something about trauma.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

Yeah, the definition of trauma that I use is the inability to integrate the affect of the experience, right? Right? So you wouldn't resilience you you can't say, you don't even know how to integrate it, you know. You have these emotions, you don't even know how to make sense of them and use your cognitive brain to help you with that. So that's why there's big T trauma and a lot of little T traumas.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

I think the little T trauma in some ways is like worse because it's not obvious or it's not so talked about. Yeah, you can't identify it. Like if I look at the big T trauma in my childhood, and there's I know yeah, you know what it is. And I mean it's like I didn't put any question about that in my show notes. We could seal of approval on big T trauma, but it's I don't think that was as detrimental as all the all the little ones, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

So there are a lot of little things that happened along the way. You you you're using food, and also, I mean, you're an interesting one because someone who has all the various kinds of symptoms when you're restricting, like for example, anorexia binge-purge type. When you're restricting and you binge and you purge, when you do all those things, you're you're you're just all over the place. Um, so there's a lot of things to get, I call it being in control of your out-of-controlness because you're controlling it in a way, you know what I mean? Yeah, so you have to okay. So we're looking at the jigsaw puzzles, we're looking at family stuff. There's a big tea trauma, there's little tea tea traumas. Food wasn't easily accessible way to act out because you weren't rebellious in other ways.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

I can relate to that in my in my own life, and then so, and then body image and okay, stuff from society, but like from I think like it matters most from the people who matter most. Now, that could be like your classmates or it's different for everyone, but um, you know, we all bought into, you know, and it morphs over time, but this body image, you know, I remember being told when I was younger. By my parent, that like I should lose weight. And it's like there's no photo, like I like, I can't find there's like no photo that indicates that you needed to. Like, and not that any kid needs to, but like really, you know what I mean? Like really. Like the shittier part of me might be able to be like, all right, that was a little tough there, you know.

SPEAKER_02 22:21

You know, like the vanity in a parent, but no, like it I just recently was speaking at a conference and um about an award that I got. Oh, that's right. But I I um I put up a picture of myself when I was 16 years old to say, this is how I looked. I look at that, I think I look pretty good. My doctor told my mom I needed to lose weight. That was the beginning of my it takes like demise. It sets it off. Yeah, you know, yeah. Okay, so you grew up in that whole atmosphere, yeah. And then you meet me, and I'm just I'm the same as I am here as I am as a therapist, and I was recovered, and I told you you could be. Okay, but what are some things that not just with me, but you went on to see a great therapist in New York. And what are some things that you had to give up? What are some things you had to face? What are some things you had to challenge? Can you remember what were some of the things that helped you? Yeah. And by the way, here's what's interesting when I when I interview people that I've treated, not for this podcast, but there's been other things, even for my website when we were interviewing people at one point about what helped them recovered. They get stuck. They get stuck thinking of thinking. They can think of all the things that got them sick. Totally. It's harder to think of how you got out.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

It's really hard. It is. I think because it's it literally, and I feel like this maybe is an important piece of it, which is like so much of the recovery process just felt like scrambling to like stay above the water to like suck in that next breath of air. It is partly like that. Yeah. And so there's no like, well, how did you move your hand over that big wave? You're like, I just knew I wanted to live. Well, that's a good start. Do you know what I mean? Like, I knew I wanted to live. And that tied into something.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

I think you didn't know what being recovered was going to be like. I think that makes sense. You can't really see the picture of it, but I think you also didn't want to be where you were. So that's a good thing I remind people of. Yeah. You don't have to know where you're going, you just have to know you don't want to stay where you are. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

To have some sense of like this is, and I mean, I I feel like a my eating disorder was uncomfortable for I feel like it sucks more for people whose eating disorder is, and I don't know if this exists actually, but I can imagine like a really good anorexic might not ever be super uncomfortable because they're like so in control. I was not there is a bit of that suffered. I suffered from my eating disorder more because there was such an out of control. The out of control part. Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

That is the part that often gets people to treatment. Okay, so you're on to something. That's true. People with restrictor anorexia nervosa often feel like they are, I hate to say this, we both hesitate, winning at the game. Right. But they, and that's a big part of helping them heal is helping them see they're not winning it. That's not really control. Well, they're winning it whatever this game is.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

They win the game of losing it. But really, when you win the game of anorexia, you die. That's right. That's what I mean. They're losing the life game. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

So, you know, and people who um are often driven to treatment when the binging part and the constantly thinking about food and all that, that they can so identify as they want to get rid of that.

SPEAKER_03 25:57

Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

So, in that way, the motivation to get better is always a little bit like, take this away from me. Where someone with anorexia is often, I want to get better, but I don't want to gain weight. That's a typical refrain from someone. And it's like, well, that's kind of a bummer because you're probably gonna have to get it.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

You're gonna have to gain some weight if you get better. I you said something, you reminded me of something you said the other day. And then this really was like, I didn't remember that you said it, but it was such a big thing in the recovery process, which is, and I'm not gonna say it as well, so jump in, but it was about building up your life in other areas. Oh, yeah. That I feel like is crucial.

SPEAKER_02 26:37

Well, when you were talking about this, it is someone throwing a lifeline in that and saying, see, I could bring you on this boat or see, look at we could go over here. I think there's something about showing people. That's why I was so particular about who I hired to work with me right now. Show all the people I wanted and still do, you know, um, like training coaches right now. I want them to be and have something that the people they're treating want. You know what I mean? I want them to be role models for things you can do in life. I had pictures, I don't know if you remember, all over the clinic of places I had traveled. Here's me in New Zealand by a waterfall, and here's me in the Himalayas trekking that I could not do if I was um sick. I couldn't do when I had anorexia.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

And I I think, and I always I've probably mentioned this on at least three of the podcasts so far. I see myself as trying to pour, you know, those old science test tubes, you know, it's a U-shaped test tube and it's filled with blue water. You can't turn the test tube, but how do you get the blue stuff out? You pour pink stuff in. Right. And so I try to fill people with other things as a replacement's a hard word, but I'm getting at what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

And it I want to piggyback on that because the replacement thing is interesting because, like, with one, it's that a big part I found that the more and I have found this true in all areas of my life. If there is a problem and I'm just focusing on fixing that problem, whether it's a bad habit at work, like in acting or in my routine or whatever, if I'm just focused on the problem, it's not getting better. I can dedicate all my time to it, it's not gonna get better. It has to be a balance of that and then focusing elsewhere to fill up with what you're talking about. And I the thing that I, you know, this might not be good advice.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

I mean, I want to say something. Yeah, it's like instead of saying me saying stop doing that, it's like what if we did this?

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Right. Yeah. Which brings me to like a thing that I'm wary of saying, but it's like when you've got something as enticing to you as an eating disorder or adrenaline or whatever, you're not gonna be really for me. I was not gonna be able to make the jump to like reading a book, yeah, or meditating. Like I'm that I understand. So some I feel like a big part of the recovery was was trading ever so slightly up. Yeah, I like it. You're not going from an unhealthy choice to a healthy choice. But if you can just go from like a trade up a little less unhealthy, that could be a good slogan. Trade up a little, just a little steps at a time. Like this is a bad that is what it is. It is like this is a benign example, but I was scrolling on social media too much, just like not looking at anything. I wasn't, I just was like, I'm on here too much. And I was I couldn't get myself to read a book, right? I was like, that's too much to ask. So I got into video games.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

Okay, but did you start then doing too much video games? Well, yeah, but I traded up. You keep trading, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

You just keep trading, video games, you know, maybe, but do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 30:03

Like, there's at least I do think that just like the trade-I do know what you mean because in treatment, what I try to do is expose people to all kinds of things, you know me, whether it's painting or crystals or going for thoughts in nature or whatever it is. And if it excites me, and or if it excites one of my staff members, then them bringing it to the table, you know, hopefully you find something in there. But there still is that thing where you have to help people, like there's all kinds I and I don't remember any things that you did, like when you're when you're just driven to binge. I mean, one of the things I try to teach people, and that's what I don't remember any of it, or are you just being polite?

SPEAKER_01 30:46

No, I don't like me hiding food in lockboxes. No, I do remember that. But you say it. It's my thought. I was like, don't protect me, get it. I had such, I'm like, I mean, it was so bad, and the binging was so bad that I had to put food, I'm just saying this for y'all, in lockboxes and then lock it up. And then it was there was like a night eating element, and I would like soap on food in the middle of the night, and then go and like rinse the soap off and like eat it.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

Okay, I'm really glad you brought that up because okay, those are not easy things to stop. And so, what I'm saying, did you reach out? I a couple of times you reached out to me. Yeah, and I said, you can call me in the middle of the night, it's fine. I do that with clients, but I'm just saying one of the things that I teach people is reach out to people rather than your eating disorder to break right, to break that because it gets very, very, very habitual. Yeah, you don't even have to, you don't have to get triggered to do it. Yeah, you were just doing that automatically. You were basically with the lock saying, stop me from myself, and then figuring out a way to find the key and get past the locks.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

I also woke up a few times eating things that were not food. So, like there was a bit of a sleepwalking element to it as well. Like one time I woke up, I was sitting on the toilet peeing, licking a CD.

SPEAKER_02 32:01

Yeah, like I don't even know what it like it feels psychotic when you talk about it. I mean, it sounds it sounds like it was. No, I almost it was great. Okay. In a trance, I call it, in a trance, dissociated. Yeah, you know, and people often, those are the things people often don't want to talk about. Yeah, my psychosis was the other way I tell people look, I wouldn't lick an envelope because I thought I would get the calories from the I wouldn't use the stamp chapstick, yeah, because you could I couldn't know.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

So we both sound psychotic. Yeah, no, it's crazy. I wouldn't also. This is the thing with eating disorders in the whole chapstick one, right? This is interesting. I wouldn't use chapstick because I couldn't count it.

unknown 32:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Now that wasn't something actually because the calories weren't listed on the container. It didn't say it. Yeah, so who knew? But if I really look at it, I got that behavior from a memoir about somebody with an eating disorder. Who would did that? Which is why the eerie, contagious part. Okay, so that's talking about it.

SPEAKER_02 33:00

Well, that's why. That's why we have to get back to the good things here in a minute. But that's why I always say people with eating disorders can bring out the best or the worst in each other. So what I want to do is talk about it and then talk about steps to get over it. And one of the things to get over it is be honest, tell people, like you did, um, get help, find a therapist you connect to that you have a relationship with. If you're not telling the truth to your therapist, find another therapist because you need to find someone you'll tell the truth to. Yeah. Reach out to people. Yeah, exactly. Reach out to people instead of your behavior in the moment when you want to do it. Reach out to somebody. This is why coaches are really working out right now, because therapists don't necessarily want to get calls in the middle of the night. That's what I'm training coaches to do. That's very cool. They're like 12-step sponsors. Okay. If if I want to drink, I can call my sponsor in the middle of the night. That's what I'm that's that's what the the institute is doing now. Um anything else you can think of, stuff that not just working with me, but maybe even in New York, uh things you had to do.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

So much of the ground, I mean, so much of the groundwork I felt like a the tools that I got were here, right? And then I feel like the I feel like I went to treatment and then I went to treatment pretty fast after I got sick. I wasn't sick that long.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

So the recovery after took a long time, even though I had the tools, it was just so hard.

SPEAKER_02 34:33

Well, this is important for people to know, also, is I say you don't get recovered going to treatment, going to a treatment program. You get on the track. That's it. And once you're on that track, and this is what I think is so important about treatment programs, is get people on the track and make them feel like recovery works for them. Yeah. Because if we're just doing things to people in treatment, and then they they they were following their eating disorder rules before they came into treatment. Now in treatment, they have to follow our treatment rules. Right. And then they leave, they go back to their eating disorder rules. Right. So what I see about someone like you and getting you in treatment is we we get you started, you know. Let's say you're on the set, yeah, and you recognize a lot of the behaviors because it takes one to know one. You know what I mean? You kind of can tell when someone has an eating disorder. Yeah, I've had friends who've had eating disorders. So, what would you say to somebody to help them to start the process of help?

SPEAKER_01 35:36

I think the advice that I would give if they if they want to get better. Because good start, I can't, as as painful as that is. That's a good start. I like it already. Painful as that is, if somebody doesn't want to get better, you can't force it. You can't. No. You can't, you can't save it.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

Okay, so look, that's a very good start. It's painful and hard to say. What I say to therapists is don't just start telling people how to get better. Would you like I say, hold up a mirror and say, here's what I see. Would you like to change that? Then you can start the help. But if they're not even ready to to to if they don't even want it, you start at the well, what I do is I start at the okay, well, tell me all the reasons why you don't want to get better. Right. Meet the person right where they where they are. Okay, so let's say, yeah, I would like to have help.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Then I would say, come up with an image, if you can, of what a full life would look like for you. It doesn't, you don't have to know. I mean, and it can change in five seconds. And if you could like, and and that's if the person can access a sense of a healthy life or a dream of a healthy life, which I could, I could, so I'm projecting. A lot of people and have that as an image because I find that having a picture of a north, yeah. So you're gonna go off track and it's gonna suck, and you're gonna relapse, and you're gonna feel like I'm never gonna be able to get out of this no matter how hard I try. And you're gonna feel like that a thousand times, and you just keep returning to that image. And at some point you're gonna wake up and you're gonna be out. Yeah. And it might take 10 years, like it took me.

unknown 37:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Ten years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

It took me at least seven. Yeah. And that's why I tell people not to give up. And that's why we talked about baby steps. And you probably don't know this, but in the eight keys book, in the first key called Motivation, the book that I wrote. I don't even know if you know about that book. No. The first key, motivation, patience, and hope. I have an assignment that is called um a day in the life when I'm recovered. And I do that thing. And I help people, well, I do this anyway in in sessions, help people visualize a day when they're recovered. Yeah. And people can do it. It's hard for them to do. Say you're well and you're you could be teaching or you could be. And one of my favorite things, stories, is a girl who I treated years ago. And in her day in the life when I'm recovered, she said, I'm a teacher and I'm I'm working with adolescent kids, and I'm home at night after a long, happy day of teaching. I'm wearing leopard print pajamas and eating mint chip ice cream. Five, six years after she left my treatment center, she sends me a picture. Amazing. And she said, I came home on the subway today. I'm a teacher. Here I am in my leopard print pajamas, eating my mint chip ice cream. We can manifest things. Oh my god, I have a I have something I could do. That's amazing. Monty Roberts and the horse training thing that he does, the man who listens to horses. Do you know about him? Um is he Diamond Cross Ranch? Is that uh Diamond something, Star Diamond up in San Inez? Oh, I don't know, but I know people up there. Okay, well, he wrote a book, and there's a movie about him, and his book he was abused as a young man by his father. And he also uh was raised on a ranch, they had horses, and he would watch his father beating the horses into submission, you know, to accept the rider and a saddle. And um, he thought to himself, uh, you have to read this book. He thought to himself, there must be a better way. And he went out and he started studying wild Mustang herds. And he came up with what their sort of equus body language is. And it turns out, and I I may be telling you things that you know already, but it turns out the mare is like the sort of disciplinarian in a herd. And if a colt is acting up, the mare will turn and and face the colt immediately and sort of run at it, and it runs out of the circle of horses and it starts circling the herd for permission to be let back in. Oh, I know. Oh, this is so good. It's very cool. Horses are prey animals, they don't want to be out the single one out there, you know, yeah, for the cat to get. No. So what they do is they tilt their ear towards the mare, they drop their head, and they start, and you can watch this happen. They start this licking and chewing behavior, like, I'm just grazing, I'm not gonna do anything bad. And as soon as the mare feels like they're duly repentant or whatever, the mare, instead of looking at the colt like that, will turn like this. What's this part of a horse?

SPEAKER_01 40:57

Their shoulder shoulder leg. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 41:00

Now it turns like this, and the colt can come back in the group, and it's called and and join again the group, and it's called join up. Now wait to hear this next part. He decides he's gonna try that with wild horses, and you can watch videos of this. He he was training all the Queen of England's horses, and he would get a wild horse, and he does it to this day, although he's in his 80s, so he gets a wild horse and he gets him in a ring, and he kind of goes at the horse like that, and he makes the horse start running around in a pin. Yeah, and the horse, and you will see it happen, starts to tilt the ear, yeah, starts to drop its head and do the licking and chewing, and then he'll go like this and turn so his shoulder is facing the horse, and the horse will walk up. He can walk up to him, and then he can walk around and it follows him. They want to join up. Yeah, he gets a saddle and a rider on a horse within maybe 30 or 40 minutes with no whipping, no tying, no forcing, and he calls it, and this is what made me think of it starting instead of breaking horses. Uh-huh. Starting.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

They use that in the Western world too. They they'll say that to start the Colts. That even in Texas, they'll use that now. Well, but this way, this method? No, but the word starting, which is great. Like, and and starting is honest.

SPEAKER_02 42:30

Starting is a lot better than breaking. Yeah. But this method, isn't that amazing? And it's really by it, and he says, instead of telling the horse you must, I what I say to the horse is, will you? And that's what I think about treating people with eating disorders. And instead of like you must do this, it's joining up, meeting them where they are, allowing them to feel safe. And then then then you're off.

SPEAKER_01 42:59

It's also this, okay. So what you just said ties into one of the things like I thought about when I didn't think that much about the questions, but looked at them, which was you one one of the things that was so helpful was that you that means that you you continue to see the healthy part of a person. Yeah. Always. And I think that is really crucial. And I think that is something that on my journey I ran into a little bit of, and I get it, I don't know what I would do if I had any credentials and I was treating somebody who's coming in to see me, and they're so sick. Yeah, like I'm just worried about them.

SPEAKER_02 43:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

But it's so important to continue to see the healthy part of them, right? Like it's that sociology experiment 101 where you know they treated half the kids in the class like bad kids at random. Yeah. You know, or the mice that they treated dumb, and then they just were dumb. Yeah. But I think. That is what you pay attention to, what you look for.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

Yeah. Yeah. I am my my little radar is where's the healthy self? And I'm gonna strengthen that part because it's there. It is there. I've never met somebody where it wasn't there, even really sick people. And it's harder in some. Yeah, you mentioned one girl, hard, really hard to find, especially at an early age, the imprinting. Yeah. But you can find it. And one of the ways you find it is how would you feed your seven-year-old sister, you know? And and they can do it. Right. Even Erin could do it. Right. She could feed someone if she was babysitting. She could feed them totally appropriately. In fact, probably better than a lot of, you know, she'd be all perfect about it. Perfect. You can bring out the healthy self for others. It's hard to bring it out for yourself, but it is there. And I'm glad you said that. That's a nice thing you said about me, because that's what I do try to do.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

I remember feeling really respect, still like respected as like a whole person. You know what I mean? And I think that's so well, we're treating humans, not diagnoses. Right. And it's like there's something I I do, I did have other experiences with different people along the way. And where and not Judith in New York, where it was like, I'm like, I feel like you're not seeing me. Like I like, I feel like you're just seeing a part of me.

SPEAKER_02 45:23

Yeah. Well, that can happen. And as you said, the eating disorder can be big and scary, yeah, dangerous. And yeah, really scary and daunting.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

I imagine.

SPEAKER_02 45:32

I think that's the goal is getting to that healthy self and strengthening it. And there are little little ways to do that. And part of that is introducing people to things, and part of that is being someone that role models it, yeah, you know, and role models choice. Yeah. Uh I'm trying to think of some other specific things. Um, yeah. I mean, I think, I mean, there's a lot of things I do. Like I get people to talk to that part of themselves, I get people to write back and forth from that part of themselves. Sure was big. You know, and I think um, yeah, it's a big part of what I do, you know, and I having people, I don't know if you remember this, but um, so your eating disorder self tells you all kinds of things, like don't eat this, you can't eat that, you have to get rid of this. And having people sit down and well, write back to that part because it's this this getting better is not between me and you, it's between you and you.

SPEAKER_01 46:29

Yeah, you know, yeah. I mean, there was so there was definitely a lot of journaling, which just helped me really from it, it held space to kind of keep me from self-harming. That was also like a really big piece of it. And then the journaling ties into, and then I think actually, here's a fun little weird part. Eventually, journaling became its own addiction for me. Like, this is where like psychology is so interesting. Personality and temperament just go jumping, jumping, right? Yeah, so like about 10 years in, I had to stop, I had to put myself on a journaling fast because it was a way for me to avoid having my raw feelings that were uncomfortable and not tidy and that were messy, and not just with myself, but with other people, which is still challenging for me. You know, it's like I schedule my nasty self when I'm like alone for 45 minutes. And I'm Did you do that before you came here? No, oh no. I know I was doing something in the shower, but it wasn't about you. But I was in the shower, and I'm like, it wasn't about you at all. Okay, well, you got something out.

SPEAKER_02 47:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like, but look, we we don't five days ago. Okay, we recover from our eating disorders, but we don't recover from our temperament. No. So remember before we started this show and we were I was talking about being a little anxious, and I go, you do shows all the time, but I'm a little anxious. And then I took for panel. And and and that's fine. And I said I like my anxiety because because um I I've learned that I have it, and it can be useful. Our traits can be liabilities or assets, and that's a big part about what I cover on this show because we're not going to get rid of those traits. So like what like I went from anorexia, the the show that I did right before this one um was a runner and had an eating disorder. And I told her I went from anorexia to an exercise, exercise addiction. Right. Because my obsession just switched, you know? And there's a lot of things like that where I um tell my now I oh, I wish I had one of my paintings. I'll I'll show you later these um this paintings I'm getting into, which is very, very, very, very detailed oriented. So I always say I'm not perfectionistic, I'm just detailed. You're detailed. No, it's a it's true. I yeah, it's a it's also just like a Virgo thing. It's true. Yeah, I know that's true too. Yeah, it's just like a Virgo thing. So what are so so okay, your trait besides OCD, besides being obsessive, what what are some other let's blend in a little bit with your acting and all that. I have some other questions I want to ask you. One is what what of those things, because you have those things, did you bring to your role in Yellowstone? Because you've done other shows, but I don't know them so much. And um but but she's such an interesting character. And what are some of the things you brought to that? And since you can get so into something, how do you switch out?

SPEAKER_01 49:28

Yeah, okay, okay. My ADD is so bad. A few things. I said a few things too. No, no, it's good. My one talk about like so. I started acting professionally while I was after treatment, but I still was really soft suffering from my eating disorder. While I had my eating disorder, I was on a soap opera, but you know, we're I did like 550 episodes or something of that really crazy, right? But I never had insecure I might have had insecure thoughts, but I didn't suffer from them. All of my thoughts were all around food, and I could go act boldly, even when I really should have been a little more self-conscious about some of my choices. But I had no, I there wasn't room for negative thoughts. It was all around the food. So you think you sequestered it? Oh, go ahead. Once the eating disorder was more in recovery, and then at a certain point you make you realize, like, oh, I don't really think about I'm just like not fucking like I'm not thinking, there's not fear around food, it's not a moment of the day. It was like all of those negative voices went into all the other areas. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:43

It kept you sequestered, uh-huh. Like it it protect it. That's the protector part. Yeah. Yeah. And it does, it is a coping mechanism. I mean, look, one of the definitions of the my definition of being recovered is that you will no longer use eating disorder behaviors to deal with, distract from, or cope with other problems. But then what happens is the oh shit, now what? Now I gotta find another way to cope with those things. And it does leak out or bleed out or whatever you want to say. Yeah. And then you gotta feel your feelings, and then you gotta do something. Yeah. Or you you it's so what did a lifelong thing?

SPEAKER_01 51:18

So what do you do? Well, the eating disorder is not a lifelong thing. But our traits our traits are so like you know, so for me with um my like with acting stuff, so how does it help me? The OCD part? It doesn't. No, not how how does it it help if I was an editor when when I'm in the edit and I've been in the edit room, it's the only thing I found where it's a perfect match.

SPEAKER_02 51:42

Oh, yeah, that's that perfectionism and that it makes the product better.

SPEAKER_01 51:47

Yeah, that OCD in acting just makes it worse. Yeah, it just does. So, what do you do? For a while, I just drank a lot of alcohol, but um, talk about roaming addiction. Uh, you you suffer, you suffer through moments where it just really sucks and it's uncomfortable. And then you start. So one of the things, but I feel like you've learned to accept that about yourself so you recognize it.

SPEAKER_02 52:13

I I tell people accept that about yourself and and and even warn people about you, which is kind of what you do. I I feel I do. You go, I'm this, I'm this is what might happen.

SPEAKER_01 52:24

Yeah, now I now now I do, even now I do, even going into the edit, the editor was like, Thank God you told me that, because otherwise I would have been like, this is impossible. Yeah, but I I had to set a thing, you know. Sometimes I have to set sort of, you know how when you with eating distorted, you have a meal plan, right? Well, some people, not everybody. Okay, well, I had a meal plan. You did. I had a meal plan. And and then so, you know, I don't know if this is more like DBT, which I've never technically fully done, but like sometimes with OCD stuff when it shows up in work or I don't know how many times I've checked the stove or whatnot, I kind of have to set external rules.

SPEAKER_02 53:03

Yeah, yeah. Like but can't you use that uh for your best? Yes, 100%. Okay, oh my God. I often with people with OCD, I know they have this temperament. I know that it's gonna morph and switch to other things. And for some people, I have them use that instead of saying you shouldn't have rules, you should be free and be balanced.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

That's asking a lot.

SPEAKER_02 53:27

I know it's it's a it's too big of a it's too big. So wait a second. So what I say is just change the rules because the rules we have now are really harmful for you. Right. So I'm not saying go from all these rules to no rules. I'm saying let's look at your rules and you can have some if you want, but and maybe we could call them guidelines, you know, work with the OCD.

SPEAKER_01 53:53

I think so a hundred percent. And then there's certain things where, like, you know that you're not gonna be able to, no rule is gonna help. I call those like like with the eating disorder for a while there, there were just certain foods I was not gonna be able to touch for a very long time. You know what I mean? Yeah, like that were just they were a nose.

SPEAKER_02 54:10

And that's okay. That's I always hope that the person can get there, but it's okay. There's no certain food you have to eat to be recovered.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

No, it's like you're not, or just like things that we're gonna trigger avenge, but like um, yeah, there's certain thought processes, like I can't did those pages come. No, it's fine. Um, I think. But yeah, the I think that moving, it isn't it's a in another it's another version of what we were talking about earlier, I feel like, of trading up for slightly less harmful things. It's too much to ask that you go from totally messed up to totally free. Yeah, you know, like, but if you can just and and actually this ties into one of the ways that I had to learn to process feelings. Because sometimes feelings are too big, and I they they get real physical for me, and I feel like I'm gonna collapse, and I don't have the energy to feel the full extent of them. So I make a deal with myself that I just have to feel them a little bit for like 30 seconds, and they're always in my body. And like almost real gentle, like that's nice, and I like that. Maybe if that feels kind of nice, you go for another 30 and you have a little more feeling checking it out. Usually you end up having you kind of usually end up having a catharsis by the end of it, but you you have to like be so bait. It's like, what about Bob? You know? You know, it's baby steps.

SPEAKER_02 55:45

Yeah, baby steps. Yeah. Oh, that's a funny show. Um you talked about how in some ways the eating disorder was protective while you were acting. And I worried about you as an actress. And I worried about you because I thought, oh no, she's gonna get because other celebrities that I've treated, some that you know, some have been public about it, yeah. Um have talked about the changing rooms or how their clothing size changed, or paparazzi's following them and taking pictures of them eating food as if it was a Hollywood scandal, like in the 50s, it was coming out of a hotel room and now it's oh, she's eating a donut. Right. You know what I mean? Right. And I was worried about you, but you you you said in some ways it was protective. Is that the sequestering thing you were saying? Well, on one, I never got famous enough for that. So that was the easy easy way. You definitely are famous enough for that because when you're on here's what I mean. You know you're on TV, you know people are watching. I millions of people watched you.

SPEAKER_01 56:50

Yes. Some people would be very so for me, for some reason, and I actually have found this, and I don't know, I can't speak for anyone else with an eating disorder, right? But I can speak to speak to my own experience and friends of mine who are female actors or actresses, whatever. Um the way that I have found that like in when I'm acting, my body literally is just like a tool that's telling a story. So you don't really think about as nothing. Your body on the screen and the image of it. My body, I yes, but from a story perspective, my weight doesn't determine my even while my eating disorder was still kicking, my weight on camera was telling a story, my weight off camera determined my worth. That's so weird. Do you understand?

SPEAKER_02 57:43

Like I'm trying to understand because like it's so different from what other people I know who are in the line or have people filming them or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 57:53

And is that but would you say that their eating disorder and their body image is worse than people who don't work in that field? Do you know what I mean? Or are they just another person with an eating disorder?

SPEAKER_02 58:02

Well, that's a good question. What I would say is some things are harder for them because whereas they're trying to deal with it, then they'll all of a sudden see someone put a picture of them up somewhere, or they'll think somebody watching when they're trying to like when people are gaining weight and they're trying to like learn to deal with it, but if they're in a show, it shows up on the show.

SPEAKER_01 58:24

Listen, you know what I mean? I was protected on some level because my if my weight was going to be ridiculed at any point, it was while I was binging, right? Like on some level, I've in some on some level, my body fits whatever sick body norms that we've decided. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Forced to confront that I get that, forced to confront that. But I can tell you that I am pretty sure here in the Say from which show, a scene of mine in which I am in my underwear that apparently went very well was cut because my body didn't my legs looked heavy and my body didn't look attractive. And you? Yeah, on what show? I I oh you can't say the show.

SPEAKER_02 59:07

I'm not gonna say, but I can but even that, like which would but that you would drive you crazy and make you worse. There's something there's something weird about that part of you that's different from other celebrities I've seen or read about or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 59:22

My I I don't I can speak to it at least in terms of even just like what I look like. Like if I'm going out in the world to go to the just meet a friend, you know, the five times a year I leave my house.

SPEAKER_02 59:40

Is that is that another problem we have to get into?

SPEAKER_01 59:43

Agoraphobia. It's hot. Um I care about what I look like, I do, and some OCD elements come in. More so than the shows. Uh-huh. Oh my even coming here. Fascinating. Is that I have to say, I don't wear this when I go, but if there's something about it being just because this is your raw self.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:03

This is the true me. This is you being I don't feel like I'm and the other is you are playing a part, so you don't even have to worry about what she looks like because you have to be her in mind. You have to embody hers in some way. Other in my life growing up in Malibu.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:23

Yeah, I know. I don't know how to say that more seriously. That that okay, I'm serious in Malibu. I know I lived here. Live. Take your children to Oklahoma, raise them, and then come back. Um, just let them be around some people. You had you had that when you were younger, but it sounds like growing up, what you looked like was your value. Yeah, I know it was not how smart you were, it was not what you did. It was, were you pretty and did men find you attractive? Right now, luckily, none of the characters I have played, that's not their objective or their life. Oh, that makes sense. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:07

Yes, okay, that makes sense. So where so you can be the raw them even right without oh my gosh, okay. That's that helps me. Does that make sense? Yeah, like yeah, yeah. That helps me understand it because I I worried about you, but now that makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:26

Yeah, it it it gives me a freedom. And I do think, especially working on Yellowstone and being out in that ranch world and being around those women um it gives you an appreciation for a body in a whole other way.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:45

Oh god, I look at that, I'd look at you roping a cow.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:49

These women, I mean, the women, I know. Tell me what you mean. These I mean everything from Go ahead, say even just the weight of a saddle to like something, you know, dragging like a tra hooking up a tractor, like working horses, or like something, a fence breaks and you've gotta fix it, or like, and I was I have spent the bulk of the last uh 10 years out of the state, out of the city of Los Angeles. And who can tell you LA is particularly ill?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:25

Yeah, I understand that. I can. I I understand that of around body and appearance. Okay, so these strong women, what I want to know is it feels like maybe you took a part of being able to play her and act her and be her, it feels like maybe that has helped you become more of those traits yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:47

No, no, 100%. I don't know. So no, 100%. Okay, like it to the point where, like, frankly, it's messed me up and my life trajectory. Like, I don't know what I'm gonna do. Because I barely, I mean, I didn't act because where else can she work besides a horse ranch? I my plan right now is like maybe to quit acting and just become like the world's crappiest ranch aunt, because I am not good at it. Well, like the show you are because take 35 the world's best horses. We're gonna rig it. So it looks like you did it. Um, but no, like I I did so much of that. And and even when we weren't shooting, that's the life you lived.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:25

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:26

You know what I mean? And so, like it yeah, I don't know how to I don't know how to go back.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:36

Well, I don't know that there's going back. There's but I think there's going, you know, like we said about anything, like we said about recovery. Yeah, there's trying things and seeing how that fits. Who would have known this would fit so well? This became an iconic character, and yeah, you wouldn't have known that unless you did try it. There's other no, I mean you you can kind of morph. So I think you can morph again. I can morph. That's the feral part. Yeah, I can I can definitely got some survival instincts in that feral aspect of yours.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:05

Yeah. It was, I I really, if I'm thinking about an eating, like eating disorder treatment even, like I know they do like equine therapy and stuff. Yeah, they do. And I don't, I've never had it, so I don't know, but I imagine it's real peaceful.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:20

Like well, most of it is uh it's supposed to be. I take people um to see to watch join up because and I'd have them get them in the ring and have them send the horse out. And I want them to, it's body language because if they're anxious, the horse is anxious. If they're not doing the right move and turning at the right time, the horse won't join up. It's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:44

Yeah, I mean, they are an externalized nervous system for sure. Yes. You can you could tell who was nervous before they when they would say standby, you could tell who's nervous by whose horse would start dancing.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:54

Yeah, it's fascinating that thing. They just pick up their, it's like a it's like their nerves are right on their skin or something. I don't know. But I I yeah, we used to take the clients from Montanito to to um ex experience that. There's uh other kinds of equine therapy that people do, but I would do that particular one.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:11

But why'd you bring why'd you say that? I don't know. I'm reenagging on what I was gonna say. Were you gonna say maybe I'll do that someday? No, I was gonna say like throw them on a like keep them, keep them safe. Don't have it be so safe, but yeah. Yeah, kind of like there's an a lot like like my first experience coming out of the roping box and like being safe.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:38

I know I know what you're saying.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:39

Do you know what I mean? Like there were a part of my eating disorder recovery was putting myself in situations that were safe, but scary to me. Well, the No treatment center is gonna do that. The distract no, because it's unsafe. Liability. But I mean, putting yourself in situations where even if it's just emotionally like put something at risk. Yes. That's big, that's louder than your eating disorder. You know, sometimes I think it's like why like women who are traumatized, like we all have to listen to true crime to go to bed. Look, I like do you talk about?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:11

I know exactly what you're talking about. And actually, people who have OCD, one of the things, uh, some of the things they've done, my clients, I didn't put them up to it, and I wouldn't do it at a treatment center because of liability, but skydiving, for example, where they get this whole different view of themselves and life and that high from something else, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:32

Can I tell a really idiosyncratic story? Just what's new. At some point, I know, at some point, this is this is right after treatment. And I was still living in California. I was at an acting school and I was really depressed. Like, because every day I was like, today I'm not gonna binge. And of course I would. Yeah, of course that happened. And it was just like Groundhog Day, the worst version of Groundhog Day. And I started to get like what felt like suicidal for sure. The closest and um and I don't want to minimize any of this, so that's probably why I'm really wary, but I had started to think about how and it freaked me out. And I was um hiding behind this acting class building, and I was crying, and this girl came around back, and she was like, Okay, babe, are you okay?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:18

She was like sobbing. She was like, She was like, You want to slap?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:26

And I'm not kidding. She's she slapped me out of it. I'm not kidding. I know that's crazy, but she kicked my survival instinct back. Yeah, yeah. I think there's something that is interesting about tapping into the animal again that's important. There's the feral again.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:42

Yeah. Well, I mean, I would say don't try that at home. Don't hit people who are sick. But you're just talking about being shocked out of something and being sick. Yes. And when people say snap out of it, you know, there's probably other ways to think you can like figure out how to do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:57

Loving. Yeah. I think you can be really loving, but also like honor what kind of energy this eating like an eating disorder will kill you.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:07

Yeah, you can love people also uh to the grain to death. Yeah, right, by just being so loving. And uh that's a whole nother that's another podcast. Um, okay, I wanna uh we're we're at the end. I'm gonna ask you this the the the S question. Okay, because I because this show, Body and Soul, and um that's so so the the question is how do you take care of your soul self? And you can go ahead and say what you actually really think.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:42

I was well when you when I think about that, I don't I think of like my soul, I think just myself as self, but do you know what I mean by that though? No, I do. What's nourish? What's ner like for me, like just like what's nourishing. Yeah, like not what is a good idea, but like what actually fills you up.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:03

And part of that is letting myself um what's she's like a self-help person, but I like her, you know. I think she comes from Utah. But anyway, she says, follow what feels warm. And I really like that, which is just sort of let yourself do what you genuinely like, not what you think you should like. And I know that's hard when you have an eating disorder, too, right? Yeah, because it's all heady. Yeah, well, that's why I give people a lot of opportunity. What you actually like, even if it's dumb, even if you think it's petty, but like if it fills you up or or like kids stuff, yeah. Video games, yeah. Right. I like to play video games sometimes. Um, but I that's it. And then um, and I think I shared this with you, but like my you turned me on to Mary Oliver and you gave me the journey poem, right? Because that's like the one you gotta give. Yeah, you gotta give them.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:56

And so I ended up reading her whole body of work and one of her poem Wild Geese is probably my favorite.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:02

I have it right here. I'm gonna read it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:03

Oh my god, do you okay? Then I won't say. And then I'll show you. You say well, then after I'll show you the tattoo I just got.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:09

Okay, so I'm gonna tell the viewers what you said when I said I'm gonna ask you about soul. And you said, I don't, I can't lie. Oh no, you can tell me. I don't know if we have souls. And and and I think and at first I thought, no, don't say that. But then I thought we need to talk about it because I think a lot of people have that first religious connotation of it. Yeah, you don't have to believe in reincarnation or anything, it's just that's why I said, no, the essence part, yeah, the fulfilling part, the part that you're not getting an A somewhere and you're not doing a performance and you're not doing, but just fills you up.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:46

And it and I'm always trying to, I like I said, painting or taking people out for nature walks or whatever it is, and um giving people poetry. I think poetry and music hits us on a different level. Totally. So um, I'm gonna we so you mentioned something about wild geese when we were talking about doing the show. So I brought it. Okay, so I'll read it and then you can say whatever you want to say. Uh so wild geese, and it's by Mary Oliver. You do not have to be good, you do not have to walk on your knees for a hundred miles through the desert repenting. You only have to let the soft animal of your body love what it loves. Tell me about despair, yours, and I will tell you mine. Meanwhile, the world goes on. Meanwhile, the sun and the clear pebbles of the rain, oh that's making me cry, are moving across the landscapes over prairies and deep trees and mountains and rivers. Meanwhile, the wild geese, high in the clean blue air, are heading home again. Whoever you are, no matter how lonely, the world offers itself to your imagination, calls to you like the wild geese, harsh and exciting, over and over, announcing your place in the family of things. I was glad you reminded me of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:07

It's so good. I I I love that poem, and I think the the the I feel like with an eating disorder too, there's so much of it is and it can be different kinds, whether it's a rebellion, but a rebellion is a rebellion against being a good girl or whatever it is, but like this idea of you don't you do not have to be good yet. Like you only have to let the soft animal of your body love that it loves. And I think that that's it's so simple, right? It's there's nothing big, idea, nothing important. It's pretty simple. And I think that one of the things that has really messed us up and is messed me up is that we for we think of ourselves as not animals. Yeah. And we really are. We really are. We really are. And I think that we'd be better off if we remembered ourselves in that context a while ago. Yeah. That feels like a wrap on that.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:06

Okay. Right? Boom, everybody. Yeah. Thank you so much. Oh my god, I adore you. Likewise. I'm so uh grateful that you're here. Oh my god, I love being here. And thanks for that. Bye, everyone. I just want to remind everybody if you want to follow along, watch the show, and stay with us for these episodes on becoming recovered, body and soul. Uh, subscribe to the podcast and we'll see you next time. Thank you so much for listening. I know how difficult and scary it is to understand, treat, and recover from eating disorder and body image issues. And I'm here because becoming recovered is possible and worth it. And I know that hearing from others has been there really helps. So if you like this episode, please subscribe to the podcast where you'll receive updates regarding future conversations on becoming recovery body and soul. And if you're interested in working with a native disorder recovery coach or training to become home, where you're gonna find information about coaching at the community. Take good care, you body and soul, and I'll see you next time.