It's Never Too Late to Recover from Anorexia: From Near Death to a Full Life

Most people with an eating disorder see recovery as a distant, even impossible goal, especially after trying many times. But Rivka Levin's story proves otherwise: after over a decade of relapses, treatment, and despair, she fully recovered- and shares how she did it. Rivka's journey from near-death moments to a thriving, soulful life is an inspiring testament to hope, resilience, and the transformative power of inner work.

In this deeply personal episode, Rivka joins her former therapist Carolyn Costin to explore the real dynamics behind full recovery and lasting healing. They break down how understanding the split between the healthy self and the eating disorder self—plus the traits that fuel these behaviors—can turn perceived weaknesses into powerful assets. You'll discover concrete strategies like using values as guiding stars, transforming traits like perfectionism and anxiety, and the importance of rituals that nourish the soul.

Together, they discuss the significance of mentorship, role models, and community in recovery—highlighting relatable stories of relapses, setbacks, and victories. Rivka shares her innovative approaches to body image, trauma, and soul healing, emphasizing that recovery is a gradual process of building a new identity based on genuine connection, presence, and soul work. She reveals how rituals, mindfulness, and honest self-compassion help rewire the nervous system and foster resilience.

This episode challenges the misconception that eating disorders can’t be fully healed or that traits are fixed liabilities. Instead, it offers hope and practical tools for anyone feeling stuck—whether you're navigating your own recovery or supporting a loved one. Rivka’s story underscores the importance of patience, persistence, and the deep inner work that restores not just the body but the soul. Perfect for clinicians, coaches, parents, and anyone seeking a hopeful, motivating perspective on full recovery—this conversation illustrates how body and soul reconnect to create a life of authenticity and joy. If you've ever felt that hope is lost, this episode will renew your belief in transformation and remind you that recovery is a journey worth taking.

About Rivka:

Rivka Levin is a clinical psychology PhD candidate, researcher, and therapist-in-training whose work integrates research, clinical practice, and lived experience. Her clinical training centers on eating disorders, neurodivergence, and gender diversity, and she has published research on orthorexia and the relationship between ADHD and eating disorders. She is currently completing her doctoral dissertation on emotion regulation and eating disorders, examining both the inner experience of emotions and how they unfold in relational contexts.  Drawing on both her clinical training and her own experience of full recovery from an eating disorder, Rivka brings a warm, grounded perspective to these conversations and is particularly interested in expanding how recovery is understood and what makes it possible.

Thank you for listening. Please take a minute to review our helpful links and resources below.

Important Links:

Learn about the Carolyn Costin Institute

Apply to become a CCI Certified Recovery Coach

Follow the CCI Institute on Instagram

Subscribe to Carolyn's YouTube Channel

RECEIVE 20% OFF your purchase of the 8 Keys to Recovering from an Eating Disorder (book).

Recovery Resources and Support:

The National Eating Disorder Association (NEDA)

Project Heal

National Association of Anorexia Nervosa and Associated Disorders (ANAD)

Carolyn's Bio: 

Carolyn Costin is a world-renowned eating disorder clinician, author, and speaker. Recovered from anorexia, she pioneered the belief that full recovery is possible. Founder of Monte Nido, she transformed treatment with a holistic, home-based model. She later founded the Carolyn Costin Institute, training coaches and clinicians worldwide. She has authored six books, ...

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Welcome to Becoming Recovered, Body and Soul, a podcast not only for individuals struggling with eating disorders and body image issues, but for loved ones and professionals trying to help them. I'm Carolyn Coston. I recovered from an eating disorder in my teens and have spent the last few decades helping countless others do the same. In my work as a therapist, my books, the treatment centers I founded, and now my institute where I train and certify eating disorder coaches, I've become an internationally recognized expert. But this podcast is about bringing in the real experts. People from all walks of life who, like me, became recovered themselves. They will be here to provide insights, discuss their journey, and inspire you on yours. This podcast is intended for educational purposes only and is not a replacement for professional therapy or treatment. Please understand that we mostly avoid what might be unnecessarily triggering content, but this is a real show about the reality of eating disorders and recovery. So there is a chance something might be personally triggering. If you're struggling, please reach out to a qualified provider for support. You can also check our resource list. Welcome everyone to this episode of Becoming Recovered Body and Soul. Today I am with a lovely young woman, Riv Kalevin, who I treated off and on for many years for anorexia nervosa and compulsive exercise starting in about 2005. She's joined us today, fully recovered for many years, and is a very good example of why I tell people not to give up. Even after a lot of treatment, ups and downs. Um, I think this is going to be an inspiring uh episode because of that. Welcome, Rivka, and thank you so much for joining me.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Thank you for having me. I can't believe that it was over 20 years ago that we met.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? Wild. Yeah. It's so good to see you and so good to know about how you're doing and what's happening in your life. Today is gonna be a really great podcast for listeners because I hope that people are gonna be inspired by our discussion and your story. And anyone who feels like they or a loved one, it's been too long or they've had too many treatments, or the illness is, you know, gone too far, it's just never too late. And the few things that I want to really stress today, we're gonna talk about a lot of stuff, but is um some tips and strategies, ways that you turn things around, because someone who was, you know, I hate to say, but so far gone, you know, turned things around. I think that is helpful. And I want to talk, we're gonna focus a bit on eating disorder self, healthy self, and about soul healing, and also about paying it forward. You know, I know you've helped, uh, I know you talked fairly recently to a client of another of a CCI coach and and raising your own daughter and how some of these lessons you learn from healing from an eating disorder you can use in all these other ways. So I want to start with the the worst. And the worst was uh I I was there witnessing many people feeling like, you know, in tears and feeling like they were saying goodbye to you. And I want to know what you remember of that. It was at an alumni retreat, and people were coming up to me saying they knew you were gonna die. And what was that? Do you remember that?

SPEAKER_01 3:53

And what was that like for I think that was in 2007? Um, like the second alumni retreat I went to. It was almost like I described it as a near-near-death experience because I actually um like I was alone in a different room while everyone was singing in the living room. So I could hear all these people singing and I couldn't get up. Like I actually couldn't get up off the floor, and I was having really severe palpitations, and this has never happened to me before or since, but I felt like the entire room was rocking. I don't know if I describe this to you at the time, but I felt like the entire room was rocking. So I thought maybe there was an earthquake, but it was like a rhythmic rocking, but I think it was just my own cardiac event going on, but I couldn't get up to ask for help, like I actually couldn't move, so it wasn't until someone I think realized I wasn't there and came to check on me. But the saddest part, I think, is that I wasn't afraid to die. Like it felt like a reasonable option at the time because I had very little hope that I could get better. So when people are saying goodbye to me, it felt reasonable. Do you know what I mean? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Like instead of tragic. I I I do. You know, in 45 years of treating people, I obviously have treated a few people, not many. I'm so lucky, not many who have died, and no one while I was treating them, fortunately. But I know that feeling when someone sort of gives up hope and gives up the will to live because they don't think they can ever make it. And, you know, is there anything that you tell people now? What about when people now say they're giving up hope or what what would you tell them?

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Someone said this to me in treatment. I don't remember who it was, but you don't know the after when you're in the before, you know, like the your whole story hasn't been written yet. And I couldn't imagine being recovered because I had never experienced that. So it's very hard for me to imagine anything except an eating disorder life. And so I think it was helpful for me to hear one that that is possible to have something, even though I couldn't imagine it. And I don't have a good imagination, so that for sure wasn't helping me. But it's possible to have something else even though you're not there yet. Just because you're like, you know, no one is recovered before they're recovered. Everyone who's recovered had a period of being sick, you know. So while you're stuck in the sickness, it's really hard to imagine something different. I remember um the first time I went to treatment with you, you told me that you worked with many recovered clinicians and not one of them wanted to go back, you know, to eating disorder. I don't know if that's something that you you said to lots of people, but I remember that being in my mind too. Like of this, you know, this funny.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

I didn't know I was saying it way back 20 years ago, but I just said it recently here. I'm in Tasmania. We're doing this podcast with me in Tasmania where I'm helping the Australians. Um, I helped them open their first residential. And I was just saying that last week to clients up there saying, Look, here's a really good testimony is that nobody wants to go back. Nobody who becomes recovered ever says, I'd like to go back there. So I want, before we get too far, I start the shows early on with a quote. And I like to have this some kind of interesting quote for people. And I decided, oh my God, I have this beautiful writing from you. I have a few. Actually, I ended up selecting a portion of something you wrote. And for the listeners and the audience, it comes from something called an eater's agreement that I have people write towards the end of treatment, either in residential or even in my private practice, kind of a vow that they write to themselves, uh, a kind of a pact between themselves, their body, and their soul that's gonna help them like a guiding star for going forward and staying on the journey. And I got it from a book called Nourishing Wisdom by a guy named Mark David, if you want to look it up.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Okay. So this is yeah, a selection of one of my eater's agreements. I have more than exactly. I agree that to live a soulful, meaningful existence, I must treat my body with gratitude and respect. It has withstood a lot and deserves care. I agree to take in that which is nourishing to my mind, body, and soul and to encourage myself to discard the rest. I agree to invest in those relationships which have nurtured my growth and to mend or change those that do not. I agree to challenge the lies of my eating disorder. I will not believe it when it tells me that I can lose weight without losing connections with others. In these moments, I will remind myself of the direct correlation between my relationship with food and my relationship with people. I understand that by restricting my food, I am restricting my life. I agree to allow myself a full life that this requires being full of food as well. I agree to keep moving forward in recovery even when it feels impossible. In those moments, I will rely on others. I cannot do this alone, nor do I need to. Recovery is a process, and I agree to be patient, as a life I want is worth so much more than a life of fear or no life at all. I agree to embrace life.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

All right, so I want to know how that feels reading that. I know you had to write another one also, because you had some relapses on her journey uh and and did this again. But I just wanted to pick something that is so meaningful to me to look at it. It actually made me tear up looking back at it. Um, what's it feel like to you, that vow? And does it sort of represent that you go, oh, I'm doing that now? Does it feel like that?

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Yeah. It actually feels quite moving, you know. Like, I think the longer you go or the longer I go from when I was ill, the like initially I was so grateful not to have an eating disorder anymore. That it was so like every day wake up and you know, I'd be like, I don't have an eating disorder. And now it's I'm just so used to my normal life. So it's sort of nice to kind of reconnect to my gratitude of being recovered. Um, and I'm so glad that I didn't give up. It did feel impossible. Like I had many, many moments where I was like, I can't, I can't do this. And I'm it's like getting through those moments that feel impossible is how you get to the other side, you know? And I think in terms of like I'm respecting and being grateful to my body, I am so grateful to it. Like I gained bone density in my 30s, which are like way to go. Like I went from osteoporosis to not anymore, which is amazing, right?

SPEAKER_02 10:49

I mean, is the this this show is about resilience, it's about comebacks, you know? It is about the the the will, and we're gonna talk a little bit later about temperament turned for the good instead of bad, you know.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Yeah, um, I remember you saying to me that you know, you think that restricting is so much willpower, and that's you being in control. But would really be challenging for you is eating. So why don't you turn your willpower around?

SPEAKER_02 11:20

Yes. Oh my God, I love that you remember these things.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Yeah, obviously they stuck with me, so they impacted me, right? Because that was that was 20 years ago, some of these things.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Yeah, well, that's that really is true, isn't it? It's not willpower, and I got that from my own healing, you know, it's not from my own uh really the first moment I heard my my eating disorder self talking and thinking that's easy for you to go in that party and not eat any cookies, you know. Anyway, before we go any further, let's talk a little bit about your story. I I don't want to get too deep into it, but what age, you know, did you get an eating disorder or about, because it doesn't just happen one day, it develops over time. Your diagnosis, what got you into treatment, just a little bit about the the first part of the journey.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Yeah. So I was about 15, I think, when I started restricting, I got into it in an atypical way. Like I think a lot of times it's a diet gone awry, and it wasn't for me. I was underweight before I developed an eating disorder. Um, you know, I grew up in a household with a very strict food and mentally ill mom, and she had an eating disorder, like very orthorexia type. Um, and I had other signs that, like in retrospect, I think sort of were indicative of this coming before I started restricting food. Like I got really into handwriting analysis when I was like 13, and I shrunk my own handwriting really small and really neat. And I think it was one way of me trying to feel in control, find a sense of safety.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

Um, I also was really into okay, I have to say something about that because I have a copy of my shrunken handwriting. Have you ever seen it? No, yeah, I did the exact same thing. Tiny, tiny, tiny writing. What is that? It's part of the temperament, I think. Yeah, you know, okay, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

And I was also really into gymnastics, like fully obsessed from maybe like 11 to 14. And that segued into reading about gymnasts. So I read about eating disorders, and then I read like the golden cage and these books that talked about anorexia as like these perfect girls, right? And I was like, wow, you know, it's a way for me to be better. So I actually went into the eating disorder, like thinking it was a good thing, rather, you know what I mean? Like, which I think is a little bit unusual, at least in those days. And then I didn't think I had an actual eating disorder because I was like, no, this is my plan. Like, you don't understand. This isn't not a disorder. I'm this is like a plan I'm executing, you know.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

Right. Oh my God. Well, I think that happens to people in different ways. Um, but that is interesting, and that same book caused me to have a mini relapse. Oh, really? Yeah. I read it and thought, oh, I wasn't as good as they were. I wasn't as perfect as some of the girls. They got a lot lower weight than I did, which is why I then started telling people don't read stories about people who have eating disorders. It unless you read about people who are recovered. And I want to look at the book first. I even made some of my own mistakes in my early writing. I remember writing how low I had gotten in weight in one of my, I think it was in the first dieting daughter book. I don't do that anymore, you know. We we we learn because any little thing, you know. But okay, so then you you it got out of control at some point because you figured up actually. Okay, you ended up very quickly in treatment.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Yeah, and from Canada to America. Yeah, first I was in treatment in Canada. So I did as an adolescent, I did day treatment and inpatient treatment, and then I did treatment as an adult in Canada. But the treatment at the time was not very good. It was very behavioral, group, like it was all group-based, very behavioral. Um, they kind of took the philosophy that the starving brain couldn't really take in therapy. So they wanted us to like wait, restore, and then do therapy after. Hey, that's still going on.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

That's that's still going on.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

And I I know that at a certain point you can't really do therapy, but it's it's maybe very initial, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:47

I think um I am disturbed a lot today uh when I hear all the time you can't do therapy with people until they are renourished. I understand what they mean if you have to be in the hospital and you know with a tube to save your life. But I do think we've gone a little astray on that.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

Yeah. It wasn't helpful for me because how the program worked is they discharge you when you met your goal weight. And then I had to like cut down calories on my own, figure out how to, because I was on a weight gain calorie amount. So I had to figure out how to cut calories on my own and had no skills to like replace whatever the eating disorder was providing for me, you know, like so it was I tanked immediately after leaving. And then I did a number of hospitalizations there, short-term hospitalizations in the eating disorder unit in Toronto before I came to LA the first time and after. But the Canadian government actually paid for me to come to Monteo the first time.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

Oh, I didn't remember that.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Yeah, they actually covered it. Uh, our health minister at the time apparently had like a family member who had an eating disorder, so it was very um amenable to people seeking treatment outside the country. So he knew kind of how severe they could be. And then I had a number of friends who had gone out of the country, mostly to Romuda Ranch, which would obviously not be a great fit for this Jew here. But um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

So and also let me just say something for people who don't even know what Montanito is. It's a it's the clinic I used to own that I started in the United States and then sold it in 2016. Okay, I just want to put that in there. I don't know where you're gonna go in terms of which episode you're gonna be.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Yeah, so I then I was looking to treatment in the US and I was trying to decide between your place and Wendy Oliver Pyot had a place at the time. I think it was called Center for Hope of the Sierras. And um, I think actually both places were good. Like I think I narrowed it down to top two good, but um I had I had had a dream a few months earlier that I went to treatment and the place looked like Montanito. So I was like, okay, I think that's just where I meant to go. And something I talked to Fredda a lot. Fredda was a very patient woman, or is a very patient woman.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

Is and she she she was a big part, I think it's really important connections. That human connection. And to be, I always say being treated, you know, person first, patient second. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Yes, and I think she like really took time to answer lots of my questions, my word. Like she talked to me multiple times before I um made the commitment to come down there in in 2005.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

So you did Montanito, you graduated from there the the first one. What what year was that?

SPEAKER_01 18:41

In 2006. So I went from and then I went to the EDCC for step down, which for I don't remember how long, but my government, I I think that, like I actually think that treatment really was good for me and really helped me. But I also think that my funding cut too quickly. Like I think for the length of time that I had at eating disorder, for the severity of my eating disorder, I think I just needed more time, you know, than I was given. And I'm sure that's a lot of people's experience with insurance in the US too, that they well, what you said is interesting.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

What you said about the philosophy at Montanito was to try to get people up to practicing eating what they, you know, and we didn't give them way more calories than they ultimately were going to need, even if it went slower. We, and I still believe this, you give people the calories that sort of matches where they are with their weight, and you discharge them to a step down where they learn to practice it on their own for a while. Anyway, you you you you were uh terrified of weight gain and all these things. And I think it was at that alumni retreat. Am I right? Is that where you met Gwen, the co-author?

SPEAKER_01 19:54

I met her at the 2006 ones. That was my first one that I went to, it was in 2006. Like I think I might have still been at the EDCC. I think I was still at the EDCC at the time, but I came to the alumni retreat. And we instantly, we both were non, you know, slightly insomniacs. So everyone was sleeping but us, and we went for a walk on PCH and just I immediately bonded. And Gwen, she's become family to me, you know. Um, she's had a pivotal role in my ability to recover. Um, I think also having women recover that I could model the kind of life I wanted after was super helpful.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

Um, you being one of those, when being one of those, other therapists at Montanito being those people, you know, like we've talked a lot on this show and other people I've interviewed about how you need to um, if you're giving up something that feels so important and such a part of you, if you're giving it up, you need something to replace it with. And having recovered role models around was uh I I knew it was a big factor in my private practice, and then it just became even multiplied in Montanito when we had so many recovered staff. But Gwen, um, I I'm talking for the listeners, I'm talking about Gwynn Grabb, who's the co-author of The A-Keys, who was first a client at my treatment center, and then uh recovered and became a therapist. And along that way, we met Rivka and was significant. And what I think is interesting about that relationship is that Gwen sort of acted for you like um the coaches I trained now, you know. I mean, you did live-ins with her, you know. Yeah, I mean, she was a role model. She's not a bunch of her house, but yeah. She ate with you, you know. I mean, it was just an interesting thing. And when I was thinking about you and the relationship with Gwen, I thought about that. Wow, she sort of acted like a coach. And it's part of the reason I have coaches now, because they provide something that, you know, isn't the same thing that a therapist can provide. Anyway, that that that you ultimately um I I think in the intervening time Gwen knew you were tanking and and all this stuff. And between Gwen and I and the show Starving Secrets, that Tracy Gold show, you um I think Gwen gave your name to the show. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Yeah, she called me and she was like, you need to go on this TV show. I had asked the Canadian government to pay for treatment again in the US, and they changed their model where they only like um they have like three preferred providers in the US that they work with, and so they don't like cover beyond that. And my old psychiatrist wrote a letter being like, she doesn't need to be treated in the US. So even though I hadn't seen him in like 10 years, but um, so I felt like so. Gwen's like, you have to come do the show, it'll be at the EDCC because I wouldn't want to just go treatment anywhere, right? Like the whole point for me was to go to treatment somewhere that I knew was a good place, right?

SPEAKER_02 23:07

Yeah, you knew the philosophy worked. And for listeners, the EDCC is um eating disorder center of California, which was a day treatment that I opened when I found out people were leaving Montanito, but really needed a step down. We really needed to offer some follow-up care that wasn't full 24-7. So um, yeah, you went to that, but I think I remember getting calls uh and I told the show uh I would give them a uh a spot to put uh a client uh on the show if if it was you.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Yeah, I think uh I think that they were probably hesitant to take me because I was the only person out of country, right? Like everyone else was American on the show.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

But so thank you for advocating for but look, I mean, if you if you look and read, because I checked the other day just to see what what's the follow-up of the people who were on the Tracy Gold Starving Secret show, and you're the only one they put information on, and they don't have follow-up, but as you were leaving, even how well you did, you know, ultimately. But anyway, you were it was really a lot. What I remember is the compulsive exercise. I would get calls that you were walking up and down the streets of Los Angeles at all hours because it was only day treatment, and it just was clear you needed to go back into residential, which you you did. And I guess that was really the part because after you left that residential, and it was one of the one of the centers that I owned in in Oregon, uh, I think your trajectory went pretty positive after that.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Yeah, I had like I hadn't had any eating disorder symptoms since leaving residential. I went back to the EDCC, but yes, I do think I needed residential. I think I needed more containment. The exercise wasn't only weight loss focused, it was also just anxiety management because eating was so hard for me. Like, so I was in a constant state of like near panic, which physiologically like I just wanted to move, like sitting was hard because I wanted to like move my my my coping mechanism before I went to treatment was walking hours a day because I was really anxious. Like starvation made me super anxious, right? And then I coped with that anxiety, not through eating, but through exercising until I was exhausted. Yeah. And then resting, and then it would be like a cycle again, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

And I think it's like, you know, you get a coping mechanism that ends up being a problem, just like the eating disorder was a coping mechanism that ends up being a problem.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

Yeah. And as you know, I do things to extremes. So I do think I needed that containment of a residential um program to like I needed more than day treatment at that point. So I'm really grateful that I was, you know, able to go.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

So it's such a big turnaround, you know, from people saying goodbye to you because they thought you were gonna die from years of having an eating disorder in and out of treatment programs in Canada and then California and then Oregon. Can you give listeners, because this is the thing, what are some of the things that helped you? What are some of the insights? Like you were so terrified of gaining weight. I'll tell I'll say a quick story of something. Do you remember sitting together? It was filmed on that show. We were in Oregon and I was gonna have a meal with you. So uh, do you remember this? I I indeed do because it made me very uncomfortable. Normally, when when I'm eating with a client with anorexia, I'm a role model and I'm eating the food and I'm helping them pace, and you know, and in this case, I decided I'm gonna do something different with Rivka. I'm going to eat like she's eating, and I'm going to follow her pace. And so, and I was really hungry, and I started going really slowly with my fork and cutting up the food into tiny bits. And it was really, I remember it was kind of shocking. You kind of looked at me and I said, Look, I'm really hungry, but I'm gonna do what you're doing. I'm gonna model this. And you were very uncomfortable with it. Yeah, very you said it looked really weird. And I said, you know, pot calling the kettle black. That was an interesting thing. Sometimes I would just make stuff up to do, you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

Yeah. I think that it feels because I think that all of those behaviors for me were ways to try to gain a sense of safety when feeling really unsafe. So it was almost like compromising with the eating disorder in this way, right? Like I'm gonna eat the food, but I'm gonna eat it in this weird way. I'm gonna eat it slowly so I don't feel out of control. I'm gonna try to leave as many crumbs as I can, whatever it is. Like it's all of these almost bargaining with the eating disorder in this way.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

And actually, that's something that I had to stop doing because I realized that that was getting in the way of me recovering because I was trying to keep part of the eating disorder, you know, like I wanted to be able to like recover and also also keep the eating disorder a little bit, which I had to tell myself, like I was had anorexia for 12 years and I did, I don't know, like eight rounds of treatment or something altogether, like lots of treatment. And that never worked for me, right? Like I can't, I am not someone who can keep part of an eating disorder.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

It doesn't work. People always say, I'm gonna get, I want to get rid of these few things, and I want to keep this one, and that one, if you keep it, grows and keeps the whole lot. It's because, and and this is what I I I we're gonna get into with a video clip. It's because you have to get the healthy cell fully back in control and no longer have any split-off part, not even a teensy weency bit of the split-off part. It has to be reintegrated. And I'll I'll I'll say more about that in a minute. But do you remember what helped you? Because you can say I had to give that up, but was it recovered people around role models? Was it doing it slowly at steps at a time?

SPEAKER_01 29:32

I think part of it, first of all, I couldn't do it immediately. Like I couldn't just enter treatment and do that right away. So that was a process that took months of being able to wrap my head around that. But I think that for me, I really felt like it was my last chance at treatment. And so I thought, I need to do things differently this time because whatever I've done every other time, I relapsed within weeks. Like I didn't even sustain recovery for months, honestly. Like I was it, it went downhill quickly for me. And I was always like, my mindset leaving treatment was always like, I'm just gonna lose five pounds because I'm so uncomfortable, you know? Just gonna lose a little bit because I can't tolerate this, but I'm not gonna go back to the eating disorder. And I knew that that didn't work because I tried it many times. So I told myself basically that I had to do things differently than I had done them before. So if the way I did it before was letting myself lose a bit of weight, I could not let myself lose any weight. If the way I did it before was bark, these little barkins, then that's something that I had to stop doing. And again, like it wasn't immediate in treatment. I was probably like five months into treatment or something before I got there.

SPEAKER_02 30:43

Well, let me say this then. Um, that that's why a level system like I used in my uh residentials and and all that is important because you don't throw everything at the person all at once. So you and you could move up to uh at least level two without even having desserts, for example, without having to prepare your own meals. So there's baby steps, you know, you let people eat quote safer foods for a while because the most important thing is getting the nutrition in. So yeah, I think we gotta let people, I always talk about keep them in their window of tolerance. Because if you push them out of the window of tolerance, then they just go back to everything when they leave. And was it was it were role models, um, recovery, people who are recovered. You talked about this a little bit before, eating meals with you. Um I kind of want to talk about the relationship part because I think relationships matter.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Yeah, I think there are a few things. I think having I'm someone who needs a template for everything. That's just how my brain works. I have a very bad imagination. Like if I'm publishing a research article, I have to look at that journal and see the way they design their article so I know how to format mine, you know, like it's just so I didn't have a template for being a recovered person because I was in a revolving door of treatment in Canada where I just saw the same people coming back again. I had lots of friends with eating disorders from treatment, but none of them had recovered. Well, I had one friend who recovered, but it wasn't like a common thing for me in my life to know that people recovered. And so I think one, it was just helpful to see people who had recovered living full lives. I also think in treatment, the little tastes of real life are helpful, like little things like taking us to movies or the beach or things like that, because it's really easy for like when I w had an eating disorder, my life got very small. Like I did wasn't socializing, I wasn't really doing anything except having it in disorders like my full-time job, you know. I wasn't working, I was just unwell. And so I think it's helpful to have these little glimmers of how life could be because it creates a possibility for something different. So I think all of that was really helpful. So I think something that was super helpful for me in my final treatment was thinking about what are my actual values. So, do I value appearance? Is that a really big value of mine? Do I value um like hyper over control, all of these things? And I think that when my anorexia first started, I really did want to be in control and I was really afraid of being a burden on other people and I was afraid of being too much and all these things. So I'm gonna veer off and we'll come back to values in a second. I think something that was incredibly helpful in treatment was this like unconditional positive regard that where I could just actually show parts of me that I thought were horrible or unacceptable or you know, that I really rejected. And people would just think, oh, that's normal. That's a like, that's no big deal, you know? And um, because I think I was incredibly hard on myself, like extremely hard on myself. Oh, you think?

unknown 34:03

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:05

And I'm still probably quite hard on myself, but nowhere near that, like I have very high standards for myself, but nowhere near that degree where they were like impossible, I think.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

This is where the traits thing comes in. You realize you still have all those traits. So do I, you know, and there we mitigate the traits, but we also have to channel them in a positive direction. Do we use our traits as liabilities or assets? So I want to talk about that a little bit more, but I don't want to get too far away from this from you in treatment and and and this clip I have taught where you talk about having a split self, where we're in session, and I use this a lot as a training video around, I just used it here in Australia. Um, you're going around the world uh because you bring up, I uh you say something like, I get so confused because I feel so split. Like part of me wants to do this. And and then I talk to you for a little bit, and then you say something like, My healthy self gets quieter when there's food around. You know, it just goes back and regresses, and the eating disorder self comes out. I want to talk about this concept because it's woven throughout these podcasts, and it's something that I think it's it's taking all those temperament traits and using them, your healthy self using them, not the eating disorder self using them. And it's really this thing, and and the thing I want to come across so much in this show for people who say my eating disorder is just more powerful than I am, is to say it can't be more powerful than you are. You give it its power. And so it's so beautiful some of the things you're saying. I told myself I couldn't do that anymore. I told myself I tried all the other ways, and that isn't working. And so this is just a little look behind a session where um we're looking at that whole concept that the battle isn't really between me and you, or some other therapist and you, or your parents and you, or whatever. It's between you and you.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

I get some confused though, because part of me, like I have so split. Like part of me really wants to get better, and part of me wants to eat, and part of me wants to not cut out my food and all of those things, and part of me is like, that's the worst idea I've ever heard.

SPEAKER_02 36:36

Well, ask yourself which way both of those two sides will go. See, that part of you thing is that's that exact concept is part of you has a pretty good healthy self that can sort of realize. And part of you has an eating disorder self that says, Well, I have the worst idea. Now, you you live with those two selves. Your healthy self got you here. Your eating disorder self didn't. So you have to continually ask yourself. This is don't give us all the work. It's not gonna happen if you give all the work to us. You have to continually ask yourself, okay, who who do I want to be listening to? My healthy self or my eating disorder self. If I follow my healthy self, where is that gonna lead me? If I follow my eating disorder self, where's that gonna lead me? And you kind of know where that leads you. I mean, you've been around the block a couple times. So when you're in a battle like that, and you are in a battle for your life, you have to keep coming back to that's why intentions are so important. What's your intention? And we have to keep coming back to which those are gonna believe. I I don't doubt that the eating disorder of thoughts and all the messages and all that are there pretty strong, but only you can decide if you're gonna listen to those, or listen to us and your healthy self, because we step in right now, and your healthy self might not have a strong thought or believe for understood.

SPEAKER_00 38:17

A lot of healthy self.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

The healthy self does? Yeah. That's why you need other healthy self around. You know? It gets quieter, the eating disorder stuff gets louder. That's when it's the most challenged when you sit down to a comes right forward and wonder, oh, I know how to deal with this. I know how to protect us. Okay, we're not gonna eat all of that, no way. And it just like takes over. I remember like it was yesterday. You gotta put it. Reach over and grab hold of somebody's hand. Tell somebody, I'm really getting beat up, boy. I want to eat the rest of this, but my animal is really beating me up over what I already did eat. Because right then and there is where you need the help, you know.

SPEAKER_01 39:08

Okay, what is that like emotional to see that, you know? Cause I it's I remember how it felt. Like, even though I'm so far from that in my relationship with food, I remember that emotional experience of being tortured, you know, like it's that internal battle is brutal. Um, yeah, so it makes me sad to see. Um, and I, you know, I'm so grateful I'm not there anymore. Um I think that in terms of healthy self um versus eating disorder self, I think one of the really important things that you talked about in treatment was how the eating disorder isn't self isn't just this evil thing. It's actually there for a reason. And it has like lessons to teach us, you know, and it has something to say, and we can listen to it in one way, but not listen to it, you know?

SPEAKER_02 40:06

Yeah, I think that what I try to say all the time is it's doing something for you. So let's get the healthy self to do those things and put it out of a job. Yeah, we basically put the eating disorder self out of a job. I don't think people are stupid when they have it. I felt successful, I felt in control, it mitigated my anxiety. I also was an anxious person. And there are a lot of things it provides, that part of us, but it's a part of ourself that is doing these behaviors. So we don't even really get that, get rid of that part of ourselves. We get rid of the behaviors it thinks it has to do. Yeah. So that's why I talk about integration. You know, I never say you have to get rid of this. I say you have to get rid of the behaviors it's doing and integrate it back so you're no longer a split self.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Yeah. Yeah, I think that was a definitely a new idea for me coming because I think that focus in treatment prior was much more just like stopping, like getting rid of the eating disorder was more the language that, you know, and not really understanding its function or purpose. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:21

I remember the first time someone told me about getting rid of the eating disorder. I'm like, that's me. You're getting rid of me if you do that. And I what I didn't, you know, my own recovery really helped me formulate how to treat others because I got into this field before there were all the books, you know, and magazines and articles and treatment programs and all that. And uh I I had that experience of realizing um, like having I was having conversations with myself, realizing that I didn't talk to other people, I wouldn't make other people eat, like I was forcing myself to eat, you know, all kinds of things like that. Um so anything else uh about uh any aha moments or that turned you around. You mentioned a few good ones.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

Yeah, I think that so I started talking about this, but then I interrupted myself before. So I think that um in the last treatment, really think about what my values are. So my values are relationships, and I had to really acknowledge that my values were reciprocal relationships, not just one-way relationships, because uh I remember when I was at the EDCC that, and this is before I trained to be a therapist, they're like, Rivka, you're a great therapist, but you're actually here for treatment. Like, you know, like I was happy to talk about everyone else. That's why I love group therapy. Yeah. Exactly. So um I think that I had to really come to terms with, you know, if my values are these authentic, meaningful, reciprocal relationships, that means me showing up too in a vulnerable way, right? That means me relying on other people because I was so afraid of this burden too much thing. Um, and so I think that thinking, and my values are not looks. Like I'm I'm just not, I don't, I don't really care about appearance, right? And so my eating disorder behavior was really not aligned with my values. And I realized that to do it was more easy it was easier for me to do the very hard things when I thought of them as value-aligned actions, if that makes sense. Like this is bringing me closer to an authentic, meaningful life that I want to live, you know?

SPEAKER_02 43:38

Well, it's just like the idea of do you have, do you want to have choice in your life, or do you want a brain that obligates you to do certain things? Do you, when people think, oh, I'm making a choice to restrict this food or a choice to go run for five miles? No, I think your brain's obligating you, you know, it's showing people it. You're exactly right. I'm glad you brought up the word values. And it's the same thing, um, like being in control of your life. And, you know, I remember the first time I thought, I'm not in control of this, it's in control of me, you know? Yeah. And um, and we would do values kinds of exercises there, but also you you you saw people sort of living their values, you had, you know, exposure to that. So let's talk about this thing about the the values and about the traits and uh about using our traits, you know, as liabilities or assets, because you've mentioned a bit about you're anxious and you like structure, you know.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

Yeah, yeah. And the other thing I want to say just practically, like if we're talking about like tips for leaving treatment, the other thing that was really helpful to me was not allowing myself to lose weight. So I, because I always went with this mini weight, like like this idea that I'll just lose a little bit because I'm so uncomfortable. So I know there's some research that shows that it takes about about a year for body image to sort of normalize after recovery. And it's a slow thing. So I'm evidence-based. I was like, okay, I'm gonna try to give myself a year, but I could not commit to that a year, like it just felt impossible. So I just would wake up and say, I'm not gonna lose weight today. Today, I'm not gonna lose weight. I don't know about tomorrow, because tomorrow's another day. And it really felt like my body was intolerable to me. Like I felt like um, like a monster almost, you know? Yeah, um, it was so extreme. So I initially wore clothes that really hid my body and I was like, well, if that's what I have to do, to just because in my mind I was just like, what do I need to do to not lose weight? So hiding my body initially, I needed to do that. Yeah, and and then also start to fill my life with other things so that it wasn't all about eating, it was eating around other things, you know? So I started working, and then I'm like, okay, I have to eat now because I'm gonna be picking up a kid from school and I need to have energy to do that. Like I had to have these like little reasons to keep eating every day. Yeah. And then also I was lucky to have uh really good friends who had from treatment and we'd meet and eat together, which was super helpful and supportive, and sometimes like, you know, challenge ourselves together. And I think another thing that was helpful in treatment, because I wrote, I wrote down a list because I don't want to forget, was feeling like actually valued and like cherished by the staff. Like it wasn't just like like I know I said unconditional positive regard, but it was like even more that I felt like very appreciated and seen in this way. And that was like my healthy self that was seen, you know? And that really helped grow that because I was so disconnected from that because my whole life was an eating disorder. So I wasn't having these positive experiences with other people, you know?

SPEAKER_02 46:53

So I mean, we saw it as our healthy selves, healthy soul selves, because we're gonna get into that in a few minutes, are connecting with this person's healthy soul self. And the eating disorder was just like, ugh, we don't who needs that?

SPEAKER_01 47:08

Yeah. I remember you saying that you would could kind of like just like put like kind of like literally push the eating disorder away and like see the person, you know?

SPEAKER_03 47:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

And I think that that really helps grow that that person when and when you really just see the eating disorder, it helps grow the eating disorder, you know. So I think that's that was useful for me.

SPEAKER_02 47:27

I don't think people mean to do that, but in some ways I think they do that. In some ways, I think they do that without really meaning to people who are trying to help, you know.

SPEAKER_03 47:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:36

Um which is why it's really good to help parents understand this concept, and um, you know, now training coaches to help understand this concept. You mentioned so many things that it's just interesting listening to you talk because we've never had this kind of talk. Yeah. And uh about things that I did that helped me get better. And I think probably people listening, um, people who have had anorexia or maybe people who are still struggling will relate to so many of those things, you know, the things that really help to make this beat, this, this bit by bit sort of turnaround, you know?

SPEAKER_01 48:17

Yeah, yeah. And I think what you mentioned early about relationships, for me, relationships were a huge part of my ability to recover because I was choosing those over the eating disorder and I, or choosing the eating disorder over those. Like that that was a choice I had to make in my mind, you know, am I choosing these relationships that really matter to me, or am I going to go back to the eating disorder? And I think that one of the really nice things about alumni groups and those kinds of things, because I think that was like I felt like I built a community for first it was an eating disorder recovery community. And then after a while of that, maybe a year of that, I was able to branch out to non-eating disorder community. But I I think that it takes my identity was very wrapped up in having an eating disorder, and it takes a while to build an identity. And I had to kind of keep myself busy with other things that kind of felt meaningful enough while building an identity. And I remember like thinking, like, I don't want to even know what how to introduce myself to people or they're like how to talk about myself because like my whole life feel like all has been an eating disorder, you know. So I think that that takes time. And for me, it was like not going back while building that, you know, like allowing myself that that time until other things start to become more important.

SPEAKER_02 49:35

I think that's a really good tagline for the show. It takes a long time to build another identity. And it does become an identity, which is why I don't in I say this a lot. I don't use the term, you know, you are an anorexic. You have anorexia nervosa and you can stop having it. I don't, I don't want to reinforce the identity piece. I also want to go back to something you said about body image. And um, you know, I I I don't use the 12-step philosophy to treat eating disorders for for lots of reasons. Partly I don't see it as an addiction. I think you can be fully recovered. But what you said about body images, where I think the one day at a time thing works really well. And and and because it is true, sometimes I would bargain with clients and say, just try it for a month, you know, just just and then you can always go back to it. I would always tell, but you can always go back. No one can prevent you, you know. But I like the one day at a time thing.

SPEAKER_01 50:35

Yeah. And I told myself, if after a year you still can't tolerate it, then you can go back, you know. But after a year I didn't want to, and it was more tolerable. It's hard to hang on for that year, you know. That and I didn't like I didn't like my body. I didn't, I couldn't even say I accepted it because I was like, how who could accept this?

SPEAKER_03 50:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

And I think that was okay for that period of time because I just had to tolerate it. Like I even that was probably too much. I just had to live with it, you know?

SPEAKER_02 51:06

Um, and that's where when I'm when I'm doing this work, okay. You bring up another really good point, and I'm having people write between their eating disorder self and their healthy self. I don't promote them saying things, but let's say their eating disorder self says, you know, you're too fat and that you can't live in this body, it's disgusting, and whatever. And I try to get the person to write back from their healthy self, like, what would you tell your kid? What would you tell your friend? And they start go, they start doing some kind of fantasy, like, you love your body, and you know, and I go, okay, you don't have to go that far because I don't want a bunch of BS. What I want is something that's really true. And if what's really true for you is just to say, I'm doing this because the alternative is worse, I'll take that for now. I want it to be something true that your healthy self says. I don't just want you to say a bunch of stuff you absolutely don't believe. And maybe at such time you will believe that. You know, we we went from we went all different ways um treating body image, and body acceptance is a big one, but body neutrality I kind of like even better because it's just putting it like it's just a gotta be a neutral saying. I'm not gonna be all positive about it, I'm not gonna be all negative about it, like I am the size of my feet, you know? Yeah. And so I use that, I use that a lot more nowadays. The neutrality.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

I'm totally fine with my body now because it honestly just like isn't relevant. Do you know what I mean? Like I just don't even care. So it's neutral, like Switzerland. Yeah, it's it's totally fine. Um, it does it, it does what it needs, and I'm grateful to it. So I don't have that like really negative, distorted body image that I had before, you know. But I also don't need to like walk around in a bikini and and like enter bikini contests, but I feel fine with it, you know, like it's it's it it fits its purpose, which is a body so I can live my life, you know.

SPEAKER_02 53:11

So let's talk a little bit more about those traits because we both talked about being anxious and uh we you talked about needing the structure and all that. You talked about the nervous system thing and what you're doing now. Share a little bit about you doing even some research in that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:29

So um I think that I definitely have a lot a lot of the risk factors that would, you know, lead someone to develop an eating disorder. And those are temperamental, and so they still affect me now. So my daughter's just saying today that I'm a perfectionist, you know, and I'm I'm like, I'm working on it. But yeah, I have some perfectionism, um, which she calls me on because she's like, doesn't have to be perfect. I'm like, you're you're so right. Yeah, it doesn't. Um, and I'm definitely someone who prefers routine and structure and predictability. And I think that anorexia provided a lot of that for me. It gave me pretty intense routine, right? And I also um get overwhelmed very easily. I have ADHD and you know, other neurodivergent traits like sensory stuff. And I think that the eating disorder can be very focusing in a way, you know, and drown out all this like extra noise. And I have other ways that I do that now. So I um a couple of years ago developed long COVID, which caused POTS, um, which is postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome. And there's a reason no one says its full name because it's rather long. And um people with eating disorders and neurodivergent folks are both more likely to develop chronic conditions like this. So I'm I'm thinking a lot about how to rewire my nervous system in a way, because POTS is a nervous system or a di uh a dysfunction of the oddonomic nervous system. And so the ways I seek safety now, because it's not through um uh dieting and it's not through exercising, because honestly, my ability to exercise is limited right now. It's through things like meditation. I'm really into a couple of kinds of meditation lately. So I meditate daily and I have for the past I'll say two and a half years, I think. And I love um Yoga Nidras. I don't know if you're familiar with those, Carolyn, but it's like a body scan that's like hyper specific. So it's like every finger, you know. And I find those awesome. And I've gotten really into like sound bath type meditations lately too. Um I always loved the bowl, the, you know, the what was it called?

SPEAKER_02 55:50

The singing bowl that I had?

SPEAKER_01 55:51

Yes, yes. Yeah, because something about listening for the sound to end is very like focusing for me and grounding.

SPEAKER_02 56:00

Oh my gosh, did you know that um they Tibetan monks they used a sound like the like hitting chimes or hitting a bowl? Uh and I have a beautiful old Buddhist bowl, um, but they would listen to the sound and wait till the sound disappeared and then start the meditation. It's a way to focus yourself and and listen until the sound goes. It's pretty interesting. So I'm glad you brought up all these things because, you know, when people say things like you never fully recover from your eating disorder because you were born with these genes and you have this genetic traits. I always say, oh, I'm way rid of the eating disorder, but I I still have my traits. That's a work of progress going on. And so I have sound bowls at my house, and I've often on done meditation. It's easier for me to do things like yoga or a silent walk in nature. I found it always a bit hard to meditate, but I have my moments where I go in and out of doing a meditation practice. But anyway, being able to work on ourselves and realize, okay, we have predispositions we're born with, but we can work with those and we can manage those and we can use those in some ways for for good. Like, you know, I always I always make the the analogy that, or the joke, really, it's not really a joke, but when I was in high school, I got straight A's and anorexia. Right. So you, you know, you can use those traits. I was always the one getting my homework done on time. And people like that if there's a project to do, um, I'm the first one responding to all the emails. You know, there are ways that our traits are useful, but put to the the the wrong task, like counting calories or whatever, not useful. So I love that you're a therapist and you're doing research now in this because we are understanding way more about the autoimmune things and that are happening or that are connected or correlated. Uh, I don't really know all the correct words yet, with anorexia nervosa, um, immune system things, and also the overlap that we have of like ADHD and POT and different things like that. So I'm glad that you brought that up.

SPEAKER_01 58:35

Yeah, there's actually some um researchers that think like about 20 to 30 percent of people with anorexia and nervosa are are also autistic. Yeah, I have seen that. So there's definitely a lot of neurodivergence, and you can see that with the rigidity and you know, like there's a lot of a lot of overlap for sure.

SPEAKER_02 58:53

Like doing well with structure.

SPEAKER_01 58:55

Yeah. Yes. And I think like back to before what was helpful in in early recovery, I really needed a meal plan, like even at like after leaving treatment. I needed to eat by the clock for a long time. Even hungerfulness took me a long time to kind of get connected with, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:15

So I think the meal plan is why okay, so that's why I don't use intuitive eating. I just say most people who come to me, it's already so screwed up, they can't intuitively eat. And it's okay to have meal plans. And so in the Eight Keys book, we talk about conscious eating, and conscious eating, you can be on a meal plan and be a conscious eater, you know, yeah, and you can also, as you move along in recovery, become more intuitive, and people are different in terms of what their needs are. You know, there's a thing going on a lot about um treating people who are neurodivergent, and one of the things, and and especially people who have RFID, yeah, um avoidant restrictive food intake disorder. And there's a lot of interesting um, okay, I want to think about this for a minute, um, understanding and empathy and and about treating them and saying, look, it's um they have a lot of reasons not to want to eat these certain foods or certain textures, and they don't have to be made to eat those, they just have to make sure they get their nutrients in. And I think it's so important to we can apply that to anorexia nervosa also, you know. Sometimes in treatment, we're trying to force the burger and fries, and you know, all foods fit and all that stuff. And sometimes I I want to give the same empathy to people who have anorexia, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:43

Yeah. And say, look, it should take time, like a lot of time, right? Like, and and we have to meet people with where they're at. And I saw someone, like one of my friends who's a psychologist, works a lot with RFID, and she posted something about how RFID is like um a way of seeking nervous system safety. So those textures, those foods feel unsafe, and you're trying to seek safety. And I think that's true of all eating disorders, you know, and that's why you brought up window of tolerance, right? Yeah, exactly. So we have to yeah, like we have to work with our clients, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:20

And so this is this is really just shouts out individualized treatment, individualized treatment, you know. And you're in for the long haul. This is a tortoise versus the hare kind of race, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:33

I think that it's hard for a lot of treatment providers who don't have personal experience with eating disorders. Like I worked with eating disorders at a at a hospital in Toronto, and I think it's hard for treatment providers who don't have experience to understand all of these nuanced things, you know. Uh, like I remember there was one um adolescent who was quite close to the end of their treatment and was doing very well eating meals in the program. And then they had a task to go downstairs to the cafeteria and choose something. And the staff that accompanied them was really surprised that that was way harder for them than eating the meal that came to them. And I was like, well, you have to understand there's so much choice all of a sudden. And they're thinking, like, what does my eating disorder want? What's the healthy choice? What does the staff person think? Like, you know, it's a very different decision. And I think when you have lived experience, all of that's intuitive. Like, not that you can't be a good therapist without lived experience because you can learn those things. And, you know, like Anna's a wonderful therapist, right? And she doesn't have lived experience. But I do think that for me, I find that really helpful. And I also think it makes me much more tolerant is the right word. Like I think people get often get frustrated working with clients with eating disorders because they see them as like oppositional or like refusing to do the thing they need to do sometimes. Yeah. And I think because I understand the fear, like it's terror, right, that comes with it. Like another thing I didn't mention, but in rain rock, I took um, like in residential treatment, I was taking anti-anxiety meds before meals because I was so panicky. And that was at a point where I decided that I really had to go all in because before I would have been too afraid that I would lose control if I took an anti-anxiety medication before a meal, you know. But it it's terrifying. So I think that that's one thing that's helpful to have sort of have that lived experience is you really empathize with that terror in this way that makes you like much can be more, you make you more patient, you know?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:29

And you understand the I think it's the thought, the thinking that this is a willful behavior, a manipulative, willful behavior. And and we have to see resistance as fear, and we have to see resistance as the person, you know, it has not found an appropriate alternative for themselves yet. Yeah. And I and that's why I thought it was interesting that was popping up a lot this understanding with um people who have RFID. And I'm just saying, yeah, okay, now cross the bridge. Right. Right. Cross the bridge to the other ones.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:02

Yeah. And even with um, like with bulimia and hervosa, maybe they're not eating those really risky foods right away, right? Like the foods that can I know that restricting leads to binging. That's usually the the formula, but also there may be they may need some safety established first before they can have those riskier foods for them.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:24

Yeah. Yeah. Or, or even when you add it back, maybe a little bit. You don't have to have, you know, the whole you can have a few bites sometimes, or doing visualizations to get the person to practice in their mind first. There's all kinds of things. And um anyway, you're bringing up so many good topics that I hope people are grabbing on to bits and pieces. Um, the last one is about soul healing. And because this is, you know, Body and Soul, Recovered Body and Soul podcast. And I'm gonna read something now. Um, I'm not gonna make you read something you wrote. I'm gonna read something you wrote, and we can talk about how maybe it helped with body image or also how it fit maybe a bit with your religious beliefs, which we haven't talked about. But here's what you wrote once. Okay. During treatment, I was reminded how we are so much more than our bodies. Each week we would have flowers in our room, take trips into nature, read soulful quotes, sing, and pick out angel cards. These rituals imbued our days with deeper meaning, getting us out of our own narrow experience. An important part of my recovery was building a new value system and new rituals that enriched my life rather than harm me. I gained a new understanding of the soul. I learned about the importance of my body as a dwelling place for my soul, and I learned that taking care of my body was vital for my soul to complete its earthly mission. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:00

Yeah. You know, I remember one of those weekly quotes was like that one that's like, I'm there we're human beings, not human doings, you know, that idea. But I do think that um there's so much focus on body when you have an eating disorder and changing your body. And something else has to matter more, you know? And like for me, I don't know, like I think I was I was how this I was very religious in some ways at the time, but not in others, because I followed like some Jewish law very strictly, but I didn't necessarily believe that there was like a God that wanted me to do these things. I think that um a lot of that was honestly my need for routine and some rigidity. And I had this fear that if I let any of it go, I would let all of it go, you know? Yes, and I would lose something. And I have to say I'm a lot less religious now, but I still love ritual. Like I really do. Um, and I find it really helpful for me. Like I need daily ritual. So even things like I meditate five minutes in the morning to this same ocean sound every morning, and then I have my morning coffee with a square of lint, 78% chocolate, like these little things that I get so excited about. But if I don't have my coffee, I'm miserable. Um, so I do still think that ritual is really helpful to me. And I think that the eating disorder actually provided me with a lot of ritual that was harmful, you know? Yes. Like the foods that I could eat, couldn't eat the way, ate the foods, you know, cutting up foods, all of these, the walking, all that stuff. It almost becomes like a religion, right? Like it's becomes like an obsession. And I do still really enjoy a lot of Jewish ritual, like lighting Shabbat candles and having family Shabbat dinners, but I none of my family um keep Shabbat anymore. And I felt like it was actually like strictly keeping Shabbat was getting in the way of my relationships with my family. So that values thing came up for me where I was like, what, like I couldn't, let's say, have uh meet a Shabbat dinner with them because I couldn't drive to meet them where they were, you know? And I was like, I don't know if this is serving me anymore in the way that it used to be, but I still love the ritual of the dinner together, you know? Um yeah. So I think that I think I probably could have been more flexible about an entriatment in retrospect.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:41

I think that yeah, I think I introduced rituals because um, well, uh I say this all the time. Uh it's a lot I learned from my own healing. Yeah. But then I realized people have all these rituals they have to give up. And this is the replacement thing. What are we replacing it with? What are we giving them to do instead? You know? Yeah. And the idea of a soul, human beings, you know, rather than human health.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:09

And because I'm thinking so much about nervous system lately, I was talking to this therapist who does nervous system work, and she was saying she has this idea of microdosing safety. And I think that rituals are that. Yeah. So, like when you go out for a walk in nature, so it's much harder to do in Toronto, but I'll even do things like pay attention to the sound of the snow crunching under my boots for a minute, you know? Like just these little ways of now. I think about it more as being present in my life, you know, and how I can show up in a present way as a parent and even for myself. And there's I still have a brain that constantly I have a very busy brain, you know. And so it's yeah, so it's this ongoing effort to to almost like be like, oh, I'm here, you know? And so I think that's how I think about soul now is like is how I bring myself to the present moment. And I think that nature can do that, mindfulness can do that, joy, different experiences of joy, or not. I think novelty is so important too, because it's really easy for us to get stuck in a rut and just be like default mode, you know. Right. And I think that's one of the nice things about in treatment, how we actually did these outings that introduced some novelty. But I try to do that in my life now, like even something as simple as like not walking the same route somewhere, like something small and just like noticing what's different. Yeah. Um, yeah. So I think I think I I'm thinking a lot about presence and how to help myself be more present when my brain constantly wants to be somewhere else. But then when I do get a sense of presence, I'm like, oh, you know, like you get that feeling that's like, oh, I'm here, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:00

Yeah, it's so lovely. Those are all really take takeaway things for listeners, I think. Um is there anything that you want to say about, you know, um raising Daniela and how this comes to play, some of the lessons you learned and the this whole thing about presence and being in nature and and all that stuff. How do you pay that forward or whatever, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:29

Yeah, well, with Daniela, one of the things is that I don't even have to do this consciously because I think that I have a much healthier relationship with my body and food than most women do. So I don't talk about bodies in a negative way ever. And she for her, fat is a neutral word, and she's nine. And I think I don't think it'll last much longer just because of peer influence, but she still like um she still sees it as a total, like thin fat, they're just neutral words that describe shapes, you know? That's fantastic, and it's hard to do in this culture. Yeah, and I don't know how long it'll last, but I'm like, at least we got this far. Yeah, I'm very anti-diet, so I don't have any diet products in my house. I'm like full fat everything. Um, I don't talk about foods as good or bad. Um, and I do see risk factors on her. Like she's a lot like me. She's anxious. And you know, kids know if you're present, they demand it. And she demands and expects that of me in this way, you know. Like she once in a while, she'll be like, get off your phone, let me. Like, I'm here. I'm like, okay, put it down, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:38

Yeah, you're taking care of each other.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:40

Yeah, yeah. It's it's the best, you know. Like I always wanted to be a mom. It was always something I wanted, and I thought it wasn't possible for me because I was so sick for so long. And it's such a I had a really difficult relationship with my mother because she was so unwell. And, you know, frankly, like it was like traumatic in many ways, my childhood. And so it's really healing to be able to have this really meaningful, um, safe, trusting relationship with her.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:13

Yeah, it's so beautiful. Well, I think you already answered. I have two questions that I ask a lot at the end. Um, and one of them is what do you do to take care of your body and soul? And you already have described both of those really well. And the other one is, do you have a question for me?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:31

I think I'm curious because I think we have pretty similar temperaments. What you find helpful and what you struggle with still, if you're willing to share.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:41

Oh, yeah. You know, I struggle with um, is this enough? Yeah. You know, have I done enough? Um, is this slideshow gonna be enough? So Bruce will say, uh I'll spend, you know, 30 hours on an hour presentation I'm gonna give or more, you know, yeah. That um that I I still I still have that, yeah. I think I still have the inner critic of uh, you know, have have I it's not have I helped enough people, but it's what am I doing now to help people? And yeah, um so that that happens. I do struggle with being more anxious, but I like to think of it as high energy rather than rather than being anxious. So I look at all the places where that's useful. And for example, I was the one, and and the perfectionism piece. I I was the one during COVID that was making sure everything was right and we had enough mask, and I was wiping off all the food that was coming in from the ordered groceries, you know. And I remember saying to Bruce, see, see, my traits do come in handy.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:53

There's some use for them. Yeah. It's because I I, you know, I learned such a long time ago that I'm not gonna get rid of those traits. I'm just gonna work at trying to help them, one, not overwhelm me, and two, put them in the right direction. But I still, you know, slip up and I still get worried about things that um no one else is really worried about. And and I have people, I reach out to people to help me with that. I mean, I do what you said you do. I I try to do those things that I know will help, like reaching out to somebody else when I I I just reached out to Anna. You mentioned Anna as an issue. Anna, for everybody, was a fantastic, wonderful therapist at Montanito who did not have lived experience of having an eating disorder, but everyone thought she did because she was so good and so empathic. And that was perfect that you said that, by the way. And I know I'm segueing off my question, but I reached out to her because she's someone who I can call and I wanted her to put something in perspective to say, is this my ego getting in control and making me want to do this? Or do I need to do that? Can I say no to this? Someone was asking me to do something, you know. So I think we find um the ways, the healing mechanisms, you know, and I as long as we continue to keep using them, then we can helpfully, hopefully bring ourselves back into balance.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:27

Yeah, I'm trying to really, do you know this idea that uh Winnicott wrote about the good enough mother? Yes. And and so I'm trying to use that in general my life, you know, it's hard for me because I like to reach very high standards. And I had to do my internship year um when I have long COVID, not feeling at my best. I felt so bad because when they interviewed me, I was well. And then by the time I started, I wasn't. And I had such positive feedback from them. And I was like, I was probably at like 70%, you know. Yeah. And so that was helpful learning for me. Yeah. Because, you know, I got a job offer after, right? Like they were definitely satisfied with my performance when from my perspective, I was falling so short, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:16

And I think same with parenting. Like I I want to, I'm very hard on myself when I feel like I've messed up with parenting. And so, but I have to tell myself, what what do I what example do I want to set for my daughter? Do I want her to think that she can never mess up? And also remind myself that learning to repair is so important in a relationship, right? Because humans mess up with each other. So that's valuable too. So I'm trying to bring this sort of good enough model, but it doesn't come naturally to me, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:49

I I was just gonna say that about it's learning to repair. And because I used that model also when training therapists and coaches that you can mess up. And if you mess up with a client, just say because it's the repair that is important, and that's sometimes people don't want to repair because then they're admitting that they've done something wrong, you know. We have so many things that are aligned, so many ways our brain thinks similar, or the stuff we're reading, or all that. I'm I feel really I mean, I feel a little emotional having you um on the show like this and just representing this lovely human soulful life. And I got to be a part of that. I got to be a part of you getting to this place and now having this lovely child and passing it on. And so thank you so much. You're making me cry.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:41

Well, we we also cry a lot. Yes, and I still like you know, it's interesting. Like, I think that part of it is I didn't really know how to cope with big emotions, and I'm a super feeler, you know, I'm a very sensitive person with strong emotions, and I see that in my kid. And I think that the eating disorder was a way to to tamper, you know, dampen that. Yeah, but they're you know, I've I've learned with time better ways to cope with emotions, and it's not, you know, it helps me in my work and in your work too, I'm sure, this this part of me, because it helps me understand my clients what they're experiencing better, you know?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:24

Um yeah, the whole staff at Montanito, there was a new staff member, and she came in saying, Oh my god, Carolyn's crying, and they were like, Oh, just you know, she always does that. Yeah. Yeah. It's really about knowing who we are, accepting who we are, not you know, letting others know who we are, and then continually being open to trying to keep ourselves in in I like that word balance, in in balance and and aware, you know, aware of what's going on in our lives. Anyway, I I think people are going to be really inspired by this show. Thank you so much. I know you're helping others now, and I'm really interested in your um your work that you're doing in terms of uh neurodivergence and nervous system and all that. So let me know. Keep me posted. And for the listeners, uh, if you've been interested in this show, if you want to follow us, tap into more becoming recovered body and soul shows, just click on and become a subscriber. And hopefully you'll be with us next time around. Thanks, Carolyn. Thank you so much for listening. I know how difficult and scary it is to understand, treat, and recover from eating disorder and body image issues. And I'm here because becoming recovered is possible and worth it. And I know that hearing from others who've been there really helps. So if you like this episode, please subscribe to the podcast where you'll receive updates regarding future conversations on becoming recovered body and soul. And if you're interested in working with an eating disorder recovery coach or training to become one, contact us at CarolynCusten.com, where you're going to find information about coaching at the Carolyn Costin Institute. Take good care of your body and soul, and I'll see you next time.