Becoming Recovered: Body and Soul
Becoming Recovered: Body and Soul is an new podcast launching in June 2026, hosted by world-renowned eating disorder expert Carolyn Costin M.A, M.ED, MFT. This deeply insightful show explores what it truly means to move beyond survival mode and into full, lasting recovery—body, mind, and soul.
Designed for individuals navigating eating disorder recovery as well as the loved ones, clinicians, and professionals who support them—this podcast brings together real stories, expert perspectives, and transformative conversations. Carolyn Costin, clinician and founder of the Carolyn Costin Institute and author of seven influential books on recovery including The 8 Keys to Recovery from and Eating Disorder, draws from decades of experience helping thousands heal their relationship with food, their bodies, and themselves.
Each episode features candid interviews with individuals who have fully recovered from eating disorders, alongside leading experts in the field. Featured guests include Dr. Jennifer Gaudiani, world-renowned medical expert, author and founder of the Gaudiani Clinic; Jen Landon, acclaimed actress from Yellowstone and Lee Harris, a globally recognized energy intuitive. Carolyn will also be sharing her own wisdom and expertise through solo shows.
Whether you’re at the beginning of your journey or seeking deeper healing, Becoming Recovered: Body and Soul offers a compassionate, empowering space to remind you that full recovery is possible. Please take a moment to subscribe to this new podcast and tune in each week so that you never miss an episode!
Thank you for listening.
For more information about Carolyn Costin and her work, go to: https://www.carolyn-costin.com/
Becoming Recovered: Body and Soul
Black Women are Under Diagnosed and Under Treated, a Coach who is Making a Difference
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In this episode of Becoming Recovered: Body and Soul, Carolyn Costin sits down with recovered coach, educator, and advocate Giva Wilkerson to discuss the often-overlooked experience of eating disorders among Black women.
Giva shares her personal journey through grief, perfectionism, restriction, bingeing, and the realization that her struggles with food and body image were serious and deserving of support. Together, she and Carolyn explore how harmful stereotypes about what someone with an eating disorder “looks like” can prevent people—especially Black women and those in larger bodies—from being recognized, diagnosed, and treated.
They also discuss why effective treatment requires looking beyond weight and appearance, truly listening to patients, and creating spaces where people feel believed, understood, and safe enough to be honest about what they are experiencing.
Throughout the conversation, Giva reflects on being recovered as more than changing eating behaviors. It is a gradual process of rebuilding identity, connection, joy, and freedom. She shares how therapy, community, coaching, creativity, movement, and self-compassion have supported that process.
Carolyn and Giva also talk about raising children with a healthier, more balanced relationship with food, their bodies, and their self-worth—and why becoming recovered is ultimately about building a full life, rather than spending that life trying to control or “fix” the body.
About Giva:
Giva Ann Wilkerson, MA, MPA is a writer, educator, advocate, Certified Eating Disorder Coach and yoga teacher of Jamaican and Black American descent. She is a graduate of both the University of Pittsburgh and Indiana University-Bloomington, with graduate degrees in African American & African Diaspora Studies and Public Administration. To date, Giva has been teaching and writing on personal development, eating disorders and healing for over 15 years. In addition to her academic credits and work in the eating disorder fields, she is a trained sexual assault counselor, trauma-informed care provider and mindfulness instructor. She has implemented over 50 personal development programs and workshops, been quoted in Refinery 29 magazine and has made appearances on several national programs, including Good Morning America. Her loves include nature, all things Brooklyn and spending time with her daughter.
Giva's website: https://www.givawilkerson.com/
Giva's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/givawilkerson/
Thank you for listening. Please take a minute to review our helpful links and resources below.
Important Links:
Learn about the Carolyn Costin Institute
Apply to become a CCI Certified Recovery Coach
Follow the CCI Institute on Instagram
Subscribe to Carolyn's YouTube Channel
RECEIVE 20% OFF your purchase of the 8 Keys to Recovering from an Eating Disorder (book).
Recovery Resources and Support:
The National Eating Disorder Association (NEDA)
National Association of Anorexia Nervosa and Associated Disorders (ANAD)
Carolyn's Bio:
Carolyn Costin is a world-renowned eating disorder clinician, author, and speaker. Recovered from anorexia, she pioneered the belief that full recovery is possible. Founder of Monte Nido, she transformed treatment with a holistic, home-based model. She later founded the Carolyn Costin Institute, training coaches and clinicians worldwide. She has authored six books, ...
Welcome to Becoming Recovered, Body and Soul, a podcast not only for individuals struggling with eating disorders and body image issues, but for loved ones and professionals trying to help them. I'm Carolyn Coston. I recovered from an eating disorder in my teens and have spent the last few decades helping countless others do the same. To my work as a therapist, my books, treatment centers I founded, and now my institute where I train and certify eating disorder coaches. I've become an internationally recognized expert. But this podcast is about bringing in the real experts. People from all walks of life who, like me, became recovered themselves. They will be here to provide insights, discuss their journey, and inspire you on yours. This podcast is intended for educational purposes only and is not a replacement for professional therapy or treatment. Please understand that we mostly avoid what might be unnecessarily triggering content, but this is a real show about the reality of eating disorders and recovery. So there is a chance something might be personally triggering. If you're struggling, please reach out to a qualified provider for support. You can also check our resource list. Hello everyone, and welcome to Becoming Recovered Body and Soul. I was looking at some statistics this morning and realized that about one in 11 people have an eating disorder or are diagnosed with an eating disorder in their lifetime in the United States. So, you know, it's well known that a lot of people are battling an eating disorder. But what's not as well known is that some of them have to first battle the stereotype that people who look like them don't have one. And my guest today is here to talk about that and specifically about what it's like to be a black female with an eating disorder that goes undiagnosed, overlooked, misunderstood. And she has worked for several organizations, including some I've been involved in too. And she's been on national media like Good Morning America and ABC News as a spokeswoman for black women and other marginalized groups and underrepresented and undertreated in the field. As quoted in the book, Black Women with Eating Disorders, this book right here. For a long time, many people suffered quietly without realizing what they were experiencing had a name. This was true for my guest today. And she also recovered from her eating disorder and now works as a CCI coach, helping others recover. And she's here today to share her story, how she's making a difference in the lives of other people. Welcome, Giva Wilkerson. And I'm so glad to see you and glad to have you here today. Thanks for joining me.
SPEAKER_01Well, thanks for having me, Carol. It's good to see you and speak with you as well. This is a really important topic. You know, this topic is personal to me. I'm passionate about it. And so any information or any opportunity I have to share information about this, I'm just always open to it. So I'm enjoying this conversation already.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think we'll talk a bit about your story for sure. And then we'll get into, and I think your story will lead us into that a bit about the bias in the field and what helped you get treatment and recover. And then your work in the field. I think I'm gonna call you an activist and a coach. I've seen you do a lot of work and help a lot of people, and a lot of it pro bono too, and working all hours and everything else. So let's start a little bit with your journey. And I don't know a lot about because we were in the field working to help others, and so I don't know a lot about your own personal story.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so okay, it's a long story, but I'm gonna make it short. So I often tell people when I'm giving presentations or I'm just talking about myself. I think my eating disorder started when I was a very young child. When I was nine years old, my mother went to the hospital and never came home. She was very sick and she died, and my life got flipped upside down. You know, I had two younger brothers who I then started to care for. I took on the role of mother. I took on a lot of pressure, put a lot of pressure on myself to be perfect, to take care of them, to be the perfect child. And with perfectionism, you know, we often see that with eating disorders. And so the perfectionism, the trauma, the feeling of not belonging, feeling different because I didn't have a mother, all those different things. I mean, it turned into this deep desire for comfort and control. And that happened to me when I was nine. And, you know, it lasted for unfortunately too long, you know. And, you know, through high school, I dealt with, you know, restriction and binging, restriction and binging and being on diets. And I'm like 12, 13 years old, obsessed with my calories. I remember finding a book my great-grandmother had. It was an old book from like 19, like maybe 70 something, and it was about dieting. And it was like eat X amount of calories a day. And I'm like 12 trying to restrict my calories, counting calories as a child, because in my mind, if I could have my body be as small and petite as possible, I'd be safe. I'd be in control. I'd feel more empowered, you know. And we both know that's just absolutely not true.
SPEAKER_00You know, you're in control until all of a sudden it's out of control, or what I say to people, you're in control of your out of controlness.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's I love that. I love that. I think that's 100% right. And so that was like my life for very long. And you know, I didn't get help with my eating disorder until I was an adult. I was probably started thinking about it in my late 20s, started thinking, okay, maybe something's going on with me. I remember I went to a therapist and I went because I had a really bad breakup. Let me not say breakup. He dumped me. He dumped me, and I was devastated. And I'm sitting there talking to my therapist, wonderful, wonderful woman. And I'm talking about all these things, and you know, food keeps coming up, and food keeps coming up. And she goes to me, Do you think you have an eating disorder? And I go, No, you're you what are you talking about? I don't know what that is. Of course not. I knew there's something was going on. Did you know? I knew I knew that I didn't like to eat in front of people. I knew that if I didn't go to the gym, I felt like my life was going to fall apart. I knew that I basically was carrying all of my guilt and all of my calories to bed with me every night. The guilt of just like, what did I eat? Thinking about it, ruminating over it obsessively. I knew that there was something going on with food, but this goes to the stereotypes and the stigma. That wasn't for me. That was for white women, that's for white girls.
SPEAKER_00And I'm, you know, I I'm gonna interrupt for a second because I think you talked about this on one of your news shows at some point about how all the images and the media were skinny white girls, and so it's hard to connect that you could have that same thing they had. Was that true for you? That's 100% true.
SPEAKER_01So I remember, oh my god, so I'm aging myself now. This movie, it was probably the 90s called For the Love of Nancy, and it had, oh, what's the girl from Growing Pains? Oh god, I don't know. Okay, so this actress, I'm aging myself. So, but I remember watching that movie and I'm watching her. It's movies about her, she was dealing with anorexia, if I'm not mistaken, and just the thing she was doing. And I remember one, two things from that. I remember relating to it, and I remember two, learning from it. And I also remember thinking, okay, that's what they do, that's what she does because she's a at least middle class, probably affluent white woman. That's an illness. What I have is not an illness. I don't have to get help because I don't look like that. My problem might not be, it's not as bad. Because here's the other thing, you know, and you and I both know this, but the majority of people with eating disorders are not these super, super thin people, you know. And so because we see that image of this super thin white woman all the time as the poster child for eating disorders, if you don't look like that, then you must not be sick enough. So in my mind, I was never sick enough because I didn't look like that.
SPEAKER_00And I have heard some data that says that black women have a higher percentage of bulimia and binge eating than anorexia. So we were just missing it all together in some ways.
SPEAKER_01And I have to say that I want more research to be done in that area because I work with a lot of black women who restrict, who have anorexia. So I know underreported, super underreported.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's what I was gonna say. I think it's unreported and undiagnosed because I've seen the data, I saw it again recently, but I thought I've seen enough to think, is it just going underdiagnosed? I think it's going underdiagnosed.
SPEAKER_01I think that one I'll give you an example. I went to the doctor yesterday and I always tell every new doctor I have a history of eating disorder because I want to see the reaction, I want to see what they're gonna do. And I always get this like lookup, okay, panic, a little bit of panic. Like, I'm not sure I'm supposed to handle this. What am I supposed to say? And I'm waiting for them to ask me if I'm exhibiting any symptoms now because I think that should be a good follow-up question. If I tell you I have a history of eating disorder, you're doing my medical intake, ask me about my relationship to food and body right now. And it never comes up. Now, if I had came in, I'm not gonna, I can't say this with certainty, but if I was a very, very, very thin white woman and I said that, would I have gotten some different questions?
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah. You know, I mean, there's some data out there. I think you also referenced at a talk once or something about cases presented to physicians. And these cases were presented and with the symptoms and everything, and two different groups. One, they said that they identified the person as white, and the second group, they identified the person as black. And if they were identified as white, the physicians diagnosed properly with an eating disorder 44% of the time. But if they were black, only 17% of the time. None of the medical stuff or the symptoms or the complaints changed, just the color. I thought that was fascinating.
SPEAKER_01Because we still to this day believe that this is a and you know, and it harms men too. You know, they think of this specifically as an affluent white woman's illness or disease. And it's not. It's interesting. I talk to a lot, I've worked with a lot of physicians, I've worked with a lot of therapists, but still, it's either two reactions, oh, I don't want to touch that. They're completely freaked out about dealing with eating disorders, or two, well, you know, from my experience, I've seen this, this, and this, but that's because that's what you've been looking for. I think they're very hesitant to look for something different. And I'm not exactly sure why that is.
SPEAKER_00And they don't get trained for it either, as we know in medical school. They get zippo for eating disorders.
SPEAKER_01And I'm just, I'm really curious with all the things that are going on, specifically now, with people's, if I can be really honest, obsession with weight loss, we're gonna see a lot more eating disorders. And I'm wondering if people are gonna get more curious to say, hey, how about I educate myself on what my patients are gonna be presenting with? But it doesn't seem like you're the curiosity either. I talked to my doctor yesterday and I said to her, after I told her about my history of eating disorder, she then disclosed to me my weight, which, you know, at this point, I can handle it. But if earlier in my recovery, no, let me tell you, I would not have wanted that information.
SPEAKER_00I still don't want it. And I tell the doctors, don't tell me, I don't need to know, you know, check my heart, you know, take my blood test, take my urine, listen to my lungs, whatever. I don't need to know weight. It's almost like a statement I'm making because I can handle it. I have been told on occasions and I don't fall apart. But I think that's an interesting phenomenon too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's very interesting. I just don't seem to know. And she did actually say to me, she said, Well, you know, everything seems fine. You're not below weight. You know, you're not underweight. That's what she said. You're not underweight. And I was thinking to myself, wow, what a very uninformed. That's not the word I chose in my head at that moment, but an informed thing to say to someone because I came in here, I told you that I have history of eating disorder. You asked me nothing about what I'm experiencing now, so you have no idea what I'm experiencing right now. I could still be actively in my eating disorder. You assume I'm not. Then you tell me my weight, and then you tell me, well, everything seems fine. You're not underweight in the eating disorder mind. I'm not underweight means I need to lose weight. It was just like, I was like, wow. And I wanted to educate her, I didn't have the time. And I'm surprised you didn't, you know, it was it, you know, I was like, okay, I have to get out of here, and I wanted to, but I will be sending a letter because I think it's important for people to know, and not to make anyone feel bad. You know, I'm sure she's a very kind woman, she's a good doctor, but she could have done me serious harm. She could have done serious harm to me, but just from just not noticing the pattern and the things I was saying, listening to me, paying attention to what I was saying, analyzing what I was saying, the way she should have been doing as my physician. But it happens all the time. And I think, you know, as a black woman too, on top of that, unfortunately, a lot of people still, not just in the medical field, people in general still think that we're a lot stronger. We we can handle a lot more. This idea that I'm somehow superhuman, which actually you're saying I'm subhuman because I cannot just be a human being who feels pain and has challenges as well. But it's kind of like, well, I should be able to handle anything that's put in front of me. And that is killing people. That's killing black women. We are struggling. Silence.
SPEAKER_00The interesting thing about doing this show is the idea that, you know, black women are not just this category, we're all the same, and we can talk about them like they're all the same. So I was a little concerned about that, and I was a little concerned about the term black women, you know, and the idea that, you know, I said to you, I always want to make sure I'm saying the right thing and not saying the wrong thing.
SPEAKER_01That's perfectly fine. I mean, I think you can categorize a group of people who've been subjected to certain systemic oppression and systemic inequities. I think when you're talking about how the system treats a group of people, I think you can love them together. But of course, we're all individuals who have different experiences. So, you know, we have different class experiences, we have different ethnicities. You know, I am a woman of Caribbean and Black American descent, and so my experience is gonna be different from someone maybe who is African. But the way society tends to view us tends to be very similarly, and how we're treated tends to be very similarly by the medical industry, by unfortunately, many therapists and professionals.
SPEAKER_00And so I didn't know your story, and I didn't know the therapist said, Hey, do you think you might have an eating disorder? So you're one of the, I would say, luckier ones who someone thought to bring it up to you, even though you knew you kind of had something, but she made it real for you, I guess.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, and it's interesting. She actually does treat a lot of eating disorder clients. She does have a lot of eating disorder clients. I learned that actually working in the field and seeing people refer to me from her. Like, I'll say, Oh, you don't have to have this. And it's at the time that you know, she didn't know that I was doing this work. It's really interesting. But I was lucky, yeah. I was lucky to find someone who actually was like listening to me and saying, wait, you're talking about food a lot. You know, I'm talking about going to the gym because I'm upset. I'm talking about like I couldn't eat because of this thing. She's like, hmm, you know, if anything, that sounds very disordered. And so I, of course, after she told me that, I denied it and I did not get treatment. I didn't want her to take my baby away. And I think that's what people don't understand about eating disorders. Nobody wanted to be stuck. This was my thing. This was my identity. This is how I controlled, you know, all the pain. I controlled my body. I controlled how in my mind I was controlling how people related to me. If I am thinner, if I look this way, if I'm small, and you know, this analogy of being small and being safe. I hear that with a lot of people, and I definitely experienced that. So if I am small and safe, then that person won't harm me. They won't treat me this way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we're not gung-ho, someone take this away from me. It's doing something when you have it. And also that identity thing, I remember thinking when someone told me that, I remember thinking, no, you'll be taking me away. What do you mean, taking it away? That that's me in there. And that's why I try to use that eating disorder self-healthy self philosophy, like, you know what I mean, that we train the coaches about and all that. Just the idea that, oh, yeah, it is you, it's a part of you, it's an alarm system, it's there for a reason. Let's let the healthy self put it out of a job and figure out a healthier way to deal with that, you know.
SPEAKER_01It was a hard thing for me to accept that one, it was a problem because as far as I was concerned, it was serving me. Now, was I harming my body and doing a lot of damage, which I'm still dealing with? I, you know, from over exercise, I have, you know, now in my 40s, I'm feeling the effects of doing those things to my body. And so I was doing things that was harming me, but it was a comfort there. This was my thing that, even though it was a secret in my mind, the effects of it were obvious to everyone. Therefore, it was beneficial to me, if that makes any sense. In my mind, it was working.
SPEAKER_00I don't understand what the problem is. It makes sense to me. And I think it either makes sense to the listeners listening to this because they have experienced or are experiencing this, or it makes sense because you're explaining it in a way that others that are trying to maybe learn from this podcast and understand, you know, can begin to appreciate. So I want to know about at some point you got treatment. I mean, you're recovered. The thing about this podcast is I say I'm interviewing the real experts, people all walks alive who are recovered. And so, what are some aha moments that helped you turn things around? What stands out to you?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I, you know, I continued in therapy. I started seeing a different therapist because I just started seeing a different therapist. She was wonderful. I saw a different therapist, and I told my therapist about, I said, Hey, I think I might have some issues with food. You know, my last therapist asked me if I had an eating disorder. I told her no, but I think something's going on. And my new therapist was like, Well, let's talk about it. It was really good because she was really good about talking to me about food, but talking to me about me at the same time. And she really helped me to see that the food thing was not really about food. I know you say this, it's you know, it's not about it's not about the food, you know, it's about the food, but it's not about the food. And she helped me to realize that, oh, I'm doing this because I'm in pain. And when I realized I was in pain, and then you know, I was like, oh, so I am literally killing myself because something's going on with me. And through therapy, I learned that I was running away from myself. And you know, one of the things I tell my clients, I said, you know, for me, my recovery was about reclaiming my identity, reclaiming who I am, defining myself for myself. I didn't have to be perfect. My eating disorder was tied to my perfectionism, was tied to this idea that I will never be safe, I will never be good enough. And through therapy, I had that. I was like, oh, this goes back to how I feel about me. I'm doing this. There's a reason why this is happening. Because, you know, in the eating disorder, it's kind of like this has to happen. This is all I can do. I have to do this particular thing. I'm like, I don't have to do this. I cannot do this and still like myself and still feel good. And you know, first I thought that'd simply be yes.
SPEAKER_00You know, in neurolinguistic programming, they talk a lot about how language shapes our behavior and stuff. And one of the things that they say about eating disorders, which is so true on some level, an important level, is that an eating disorder isn't something you have, it's something you do, and you can stop doing it. And I think we all, all of us who are recovered, at some point realize we have the power to change it. It doesn't feel like that in the beginning, does it? I mean, I don't know how it was for you, but it was hard for me to get better. It was a struggle. So, are there some steps you can offer of things for listeners that you had to take that you thought, I'll never be able to do that? And like one of mine was gaining weight. I cried and stomped and said I wouldn't be able to handle it. How? Give a little bit of the house.
SPEAKER_01It's interesting. I, you know, I love the house. And I tell my clients this and they never believe me. But the thing is, it's like I tell them, I said, you're not going to gain the weight until you're comfortable enough to do it. And I say that because for me, I was so afraid of gaining weight until I started realizing I was actually living a life. And I was like, oh, I'm actually like enjoying things. Like, okay, you know, someone offered me a little piece of like a little tiny piece of something that I normally wouldn't eat. I eat it. And I didn't think about it. And I go, oh, I didn't think about that. And I keep going. And then eventually you have a little bit more. I started living my life. You have to, like, for me, at least, not everybody, maybe, but this is my personal experience, and I think it actually works. I had to build a life outside of my eating disorder. So for me, it was a gradual, slow thing. It wasn't like, now I understand if someone goes to treatment and then you know, you have to eat things against you know what they believe, you know, against your will, you have to eat things. That's very different. But in real life, when you're doing this outside of treatment, it was baby steps. It was little steps that I didn't even notice where I was.
SPEAKER_00I turned around and I was like, oh, that's where I was. You know what? I did the same thing. And look, when I ran Montanito, I mean, it was very important to me that we went slowly with people, we collaborated with people. Because you just mentioned what happens often in treatment, where people have to do something totally against their will. They're totally freaked out and resistant to it. And then when they leave, what do they do? They follow the treatment rules and then they go back to eating disorder rules. And other people on this show have mentioned, and I think it's a theme I'm hearing. If you're giving up something that's become important to you or habitual to you, you have to put something good in.
SPEAKER_01I needed to have another coping strategy. And for me, that was people, that was family, that was friends. I tell my clients all the time, you know, I found community based on real interests, not just my body. Now you can find a lot of people who want to obsess about food and body with you. You can, but I found people who wanted to talk about, you know, I love art, I love music. I started playing the guitar. I found things that I really enjoyed that gave me an identity away from just being consumed with what I ate and how I looked. And as I did that, I'm playing my guitar. I'm not thinking about whether or not I, you know, oh wow, I could have gone to the gym. I'm actually laughing and having fun with people. And so I was moving towards something and away from my eating disorder. But you can't just walk away from you can't drop your baby. You got to pick something else up. And that's what I did. And so for me, it was community, it was interest in hobbies. It was seeing myself different, learning about who I actually was.
SPEAKER_00You say you can't you can't drop your baby. And I think what's comforting about my philosophy and how I teach coaches and how I taught therapists for so many years is this idea that you don't get rid of the baby, you get rid of the bad behaviors the baby's doing. You know what I mean? So we don't get rid of that part of ourself, just the behaviors that it's adopted, because that part of ourself is, you know, our alarm system, the thing that tells us we did have issues, you know, that we did have wounds that we were trying to heal. Like you said, comfort and control and safety and protection and all those things. We just have to figure out a different way. So, do you use that a lot in your coaching with clients, the ED self, healthy self thing?
SPEAKER_01Oh, 100%. Well, 100%. You know, I talk to clients every day, you know, as a coach, I'm texting. I'm texting throughout the day. I say, hey, text me, let's let's communicate. And when I start knowing I'm talking to their eating disorder self, I'm like, okay, who am I talking to here? Yeah. We got to come back, you know. And my clients, they hate it and love it at the same time because I'm gonna call you out. I'm gonna say, hold on now, what's going on here? What happened?
SPEAKER_00What happened? Because I'm not talking to you. You know, if they don't hate it and love it at the same time, they're not growing. You know, that's the thing. That's a good sign. If they hate it and love it, you know you're getting somewhere with them because there has to be that trust and there has to be that bond, and there has to be a challenge, or people don't get better. And that's the thing.
SPEAKER_01What we're really doing is we're really helping them to learn how to sit with the discomfort a little bit more. Like, okay, yes, recovery is hard and it sucks, and it's uncomfortable, and you're not gonna like it until you are at a certain place where you realize how far you've come. But you know, I keep telling them, okay, you know, you keep running away from the pain. I get it, I get it, I get it, but you gotta stay here with me. Stay here with me. You can do this, you can do this. You don't have to go to the gym. No, you can finish that. You can finish your meal, you can do it. And you're feeling uncomfortable, call me. Let's sit together and talk about it.
SPEAKER_00That's what's so great about a coach, right? And you and I have been involved in experiences of training people, you know. You've done a lot of training yourself, training mentors. That's a part that in the moment, where the texting and the calling and whatever in the moment, and it's so interesting to me. I mean, we both worked at organizations like Project Heel and ANAD, where they train mentors and talk a little bit about your work during that because you recovered and then you pretty quickly started giving back.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like yeah, it was like I started at Project Heel and then they introduced me to you. And it was like, hey, Carol's about to teach you how to train people. But like, okay, I have been a trainer and educator before, and I've been pretty good about knowing how because a lot of being a coach, particularly a peer supporter, is learning how to take your story and make it relatable to other people. So learning how to communicate. I've always been really good at that. And so when I started doing this work, training people to be mentors and support group facilitators, it was like, okay, well, how do I connect with people to help them feel empowered to tell their stories, to connect with others? Because this is all about healing and connection. You know, and I think, you know, going back to the eating disorder, eating disorders are extremely isolating. They want you to be alone, they want you to lie and keep secrets and be over here by yourself. And so, part of being a coach and being a peer supporter or a mentor, a support group facilitator, we're saying you're not alone. I see you, I understand you, I want to help you, I'm not leaving you. And so I help people to understand that's what our job is to see people, connect with them, and help them.
SPEAKER_00And also, I think the no-judgment and empathy piece of having been there. I mean, I have a lot of good therapists, and I even have some good coaches who never had an eating disorder, so they don't have lived experience. But there's a different kind of empathy when you've gone through hell and back and you're a survivor and you can say, I did it. Did you think in your own journey I'm never gonna recover? I mean, did you ever have those thoughts? I don't even know if I had that thought. I thought that I was just gonna live like that forever. I'm you know, you know what? I'm the same.
SPEAKER_01I didn't even have the word recovered in my mind. What are you talking about? This isn't how it's gonna be. This is normal for me now. And then I turned around and I was like, okay, and I'm talking to my therapist, and I'm just like, she's like, Oh, how are things going? I'm like, Well, I think it was right after a holiday. And I ate everything that I wanted to eat. And she's like, Well, how was that? I was like, Yeah, it was the food was good. She's like, How do you feel about that? And I was like, I feel okay, you know, you know, I'm a little bloated, blah, blah, blah. And she's like, You ate it and you seem okay. I'm like, I think I seem okay, you know, and I was like, Oh, I don't think about that anymore. Oh, I'm not afraid to wear my bait. Wait, I'm wearing a bathing suit right now. That is so for me, it was all these like benchmarks were things I never thought I would be able to do. It's like I'm eating an ice cream cone on the beach in a two-piece bathing suit, and I'm not worried that everyone's thinking that I look terrible right now. I'm not even thinking about what I was thinking about.
SPEAKER_00So you're talking about something very interesting, a phenomena that I find when I interview people or have worked with people or just talk to previous clients about how there's a bit of a looking back. Like when we're in it and recovering, it's such small incremental steps, like maybe trying a few bites of an ice cream cone. And then there's this time where we're eating one and we realize I wasn't even thinking about that. And so there is a looking back when you realize it's going, going, gone, you know, you know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So that that brings up this idea of there's so many things I want to talk to you about. This idea about being recovered, because you know how fierce I am about that. And you know, there's a lot of people still using in recovery or always recoverying. What do you tell your clients about that? Or what do you tell them when they say things like, I don't think I can be recovered? Or some of them say, I don't even think anyone recovers. I think you're always having. Well, first, my first response is, Oh, so you're telling me my experience?
SPEAKER_01It's for me. And then usually go, that's fair, but I just can't do it. It's not gonna be for me. I said, Okay, well, there are a lot of things you thought you couldn't do. Okay, and I said, and you really plan on being the same person you are right now for the rest of your life? Do you think that's how this works? You're gonna have more experience, you think you're gonna stay the same? I said, So if you're capable of changing in other ways, why can't this change?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I mean, it's so true. You know how strongly I feel about this. I feel like it's a really big thing. And I just had an interesting experience with a therapist talking about somebody and talking about how, well, what is really recovered and what you know, I think this person is, you know, recovering pretty well. And what do you think recovered is? So I sent my definition, you know, said, look, I just ask people, look at this definition and see if you meet this definition. And then, of course, my and if you meet it for two years kind of a thing. So I love that you say that thing. What do you think? You have to be the same your whole life?
SPEAKER_01I mean, it's interesting, you know, a lot of times when they say that to me, there's so many things missing from their lives. I said, Well, okay, do you plan on like finding someone who you really connect with and you potentially love? Well, yeah, I'm like, well, that's gonna be different, right? Do you plan on having the same job? No, well, that's gonna be different. I said, You don't think you're gonna change with that? So why do you think that your eating disorder won't change as those things happen? I go, Oh, I'm like, so if we add these beautiful elements to your life, maybe you won't need it anymore. I'm just throwing that out there. You know, I'm very sarcastic with my clients. I'm like, I'm just throwing it out there. Why would you still need it? Do you think? You go, hmm. You know, and it's not that easy, of course, right? They're not changing their minds completely at that moment.
SPEAKER_00But I think part of my job It's those glimpses getting those, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's just a motivation. You know, I think, you know, primarily I focus on motivation, helping them challenge their beliefs around their eating disorder, helping them discover and utilize coping strategies, those kind of things. It's like those things to help them kind of just cope with the day to day so they can stay strong in their fight. Because this is a fight, it is a fight, it's a fight against what feels like you're fighting yourself every single day to do the right thing that is so extremely painful at the same time.
SPEAKER_00That's why the empathy and non-judgment and collaboration and all that is so important. So I want to go back to your advocacy work because you've done a lot of it and you've been a spokesperson, not just for marginalized groups and black women, but for so many people in the field. And you like doing the training at Project Heel. And will you maybe say a little bit about Project Heel and ANAD and the difference? I I don't know if the listeners are gonna know about those.
SPEAKER_01So Project Heel primarily focuses on now, like you know, really just representation and access to treatment for everyone, but especially those who are marginalized, those who are either can't afford treatment or those people who are just again, like we mentioned, they're just underserved, overlooked, and underserved. And so they really like to put an emphasis on supporting those people by helping them get access to treatment because treatment is important, you know. There are people who probably have done this on their own. I don't know any, but I know that for me, having professional treatment as well as the community around me was essential, and Project Hill provides that. And so when I was there with them, they had the communities of healing, and that was basically just a lot of us recovered people coming together saying, Hey, this was a battle that I don't think many people know about. I survived it. Let me help other people. And so I trained them to be one-on-one mentors as well as support group facilitators so that people could have community. Because, like I said, these eating disorders are extremely isolating. And to know someone else is having those same really horrible thoughts about themselves and about how they look and about what they ate, and those secret things, those things are so shameful because there's so much shame that comes with an eating disorder. When you have someone else there who says, not only that I survive it, but I'm not judging you for being in it, and I'm here to help you, it changed, it's a game changer. So I took that work that I was doing at Project Hill and I went over to Annad and I kind of revamped their model and I continued that work there.
SPEAKER_00And I've probably trained and worked with almost 200 people at this point, and I'm really, you know, that let me say something for the listeners that or you say uh what Anid stands for.
SPEAKER_01Oh god, okay, National Association of Anorexia, Nervosa, and associated disorders. You got it very long. I know I it only took me like two years to remember it, but yes, you know, did you know that I ran?
SPEAKER_00I don't know if you remember this, that I ran groups for them in the 1980s. I was I was one, of course you did. Of course you did. I know. If you go back, I have my little hands, my tentacles, and everything. Carolyn, yes, anything that was popping up, I wanted to get in it and get involved with. So I was running free support groups. Well, okay, so let me ask you about specifically black women. What are some sensitivities? If someone's out there listening to this, some of the things you've said, and what are some sensitivities, different questions you have to ask, things that you think maybe you can educate, yeah, even even me about on things when we are treating a black woman, could be a black male, I guess, but I was just was gonna make this show more general, but then I decided, okay, but what about black women? We have the books, the black women with eating disorder books. That was actually published by the people who wrote the eight keys book, and I gave them some names of people to talk to and how to get going on that. But what are some considerations?
SPEAKER_01So I think one, believe them, you know. So if a black woman is actually coming to you and she's talking about challenges she's having with food and body, believe her. I think oftentimes, again, my doctor did it yesterday, she said she told me my BMI. I'm like, why are you even like we're still talking about BMI now? It's 2026, but whatever. You know, people look at weight and look at BMI and they say, Oh, you can't be sick. Yeah, so one, throw that out the window. And that's that's for everyone, but especially for But don't minimize.
SPEAKER_00So if a black woman is telling a doctor even a little bit about their issues with food, don't minimize it.
SPEAKER_01Believe her, listen to her. You know, don't say, well, you know, look at her chart and say, Well, your weight doesn't look such and such. You know, don't do that. I think also understand that it can be very difficult. I think many black women are very aware that they might not be believed or taken seriously. And so she may be hesitant. So be patient and be supportive, be welcoming so that she feels comfortable coming to you so that she can talk to you about these things. I think another thing, also understand that this is a misconception a lot of people have. People think that every person, not every person who has an eating disorder, has this desire to be super thin. I think that comes with it oftentimes. But another thing that people try to project onto people of color, and particularly black women, is this idea that if you have an eating disorder, particularly if you have one that you know, if you are restricting or if you're purging, that you want to somehow look white. You want a European aesthetic. And that's not true. Many cultures, particularly, you know, in African-American culture, there isn't this particular desire to be very thin. There's a different beauty aesthetic. And so for me, one of the reasons I was hesitant to tell people about my eating disorder, about my restriction, was I felt that they were gonna say, Well, you just want to look like a white woman. I don't, I'm very proud to be a black woman. My eating disorder wasn't about trying to look like I have a European aesthetic. I was trying to control my body. I just wanted to control my body. The byproduct of that was me being small, which I did get praised for. Let's not get that. You know, that is very true, I got praised for that. But in my culture, a curvy body is more accepting. So for black women who may be restricting, we also have the stigma that we don't look black enough as well. So she may be stuck in a place where people are telling her that she doesn't look like the thin white woman enough to be safe, but also she doesn't look like what she may believe a black woman is supposed to look like. It's a very tricky place to be in and it's very nuanced. And I haven't found very many people who understand what that's like. And that's why I do the work I do. I work with so many people of color, particularly black women, because I understand that the European beauty aesthetic it is hovering here, but we have our own. And when you are restricting and you may be getting closer to that, you may feel like you're losing your identity as a black woman. And so that's a very tricky thing to deal with and navigate. And I think sometimes, particularly I hear this from black people who've been maybe in residential or in PHP, they're in groups with people who don't understand because they want to look like Taylor Swift. I never wanted to look like Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift is not my idea of beauty, and so when you're in support groups with people who are saying, Oh, I want to have this beauty aesthetic, that's not what I wanted.
SPEAKER_00And you know what I think about this is how much we just have to individualize treatment no matter what or who. You know, what is this person's history? What are this person's wounds and traumas? You know, there's big T trauma and little T trauma, and there's a lot in terms of understanding what are the little T traumas or upsets. If you like you mentioned about being in school and about isolated and stuff, and I thought, well, one of the things about black women is that if you're in a school or live in a community where everyone else is not the same color as you are, that's a little bit isolating, also. So you just it just I feel like there's some magnifications of problems that other people have, but we just need to pay attention to it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think cultural competence and cultural understanding of you know the big topics and understand what people are bringing into spaces. For instance, you know, I'm not gonna talk about politics, but when things happen in the country that impact certain groups of people, you're gonna see the eating disorders grow, numbers of eating disorders grow because I'm being impacted by what's happening, you know, I have to cope. And so we have to understand how systems impact groups of people, you know, and we don't want to think about that, but it's true, it's very true. If I'm a black woman and I have a curvy body and I am restricting and I'm not losing a lot of weight, and I'm in a predominantly white environment, and I don't have anyone who's recognizing what's going on with me, and I also don't have anyone who I can talk to about my experience who looks like me, that is gonna be traumatizing in itself. I have a lot of people tell me they go into treatment and they're surrounded by people who don't know about their experience or where they come from and are afraid to talk about it. And I think that's the thing. I think we need to be more open to having conversations that make us uncomfortable and learning.
SPEAKER_00Remember when I said to you, I'm sometimes afraid I'm gonna say the wrong thing or whatever. Say to the listeners what you told me.
SPEAKER_01So I think one, so I'm gonna say this I think it is everyone's personal responsibility to educate themselves. Okay. I think that we all need to be mindful of who we speak to and who we ask. But I do think it is important for us to be able to acknowledge when we are lacking in knowledge and understanding and be able to go to someone who has that knowledge and understanding, who also is able to educate, who also is willing to, because you just can't walk up to anyone and just ask them that it's not their job to educate you. But if you have someone who you trust who is open to educating you and sharing their perspective, do it. Don't be afraid to learn, don't be afraid to be corrected. That's another thing. Oftentimes, people are afraid to be corrected, and people are afraid to correct others. So I tell people, because I do this training, I did a training last week with a therapeutic practice. They wanted me to come in and talk about how to facilitate mixed race support groups when you have people of different backgrounds. And the whole training was about how to have an honest conversation and make it as safe as possible. And I think it's about humility saying, you know what, I don't know. I don't know this is your experience. And I apologize if I've done anything that may have caused harm. I'm going to educate myself more. But if you feel comfortable, if there's anything I ever say that sounds like that sounds ignorant or offensive or harmful to you, if you feel comfortable, please come tell me. I want that feedback because I respect you and I care for you. And I tell people that. I work with people of different just because I'm a black woman doesn't mean I know about every single culture. That's not true. I well, I'm American. I live here, I live in New York. Um, I had a client, a South Asian woman, and she was explaining to me about her experience about, you know, growing up and having body hair, and people shamed her for her body hair. I had never heard that before. That's not my lived experience. I didn't know that. And I said, thank you for sharing that with me. And I went afterwards and I educated myself. I went and there are plenty of South Asian women doing this work and eating disorders, and I went and looked at their blog posts and what they wrote about these different things to educate myself because I did not want to go back into my session with my client, ignorant about something that she just mentioned to me. And I think we we have to be open and we have to communicate, but we also have to just be humble as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and take the feedback, you know, be able to withstand being corrected or, you know. But I do think it makes a difference if the communication back and forth. And I really appreciate what you said about just be cognizant about who you ask, because it isn't other people's responsibility to educate you, but there will be some people who have the time or the energy. And that's why I could ask you. You can ask me.
SPEAKER_01You can always ask me because I'm an educator. I understand that I work with people who don't understand all the time. I don't have a problem breaking it down. I don't personalize it. Now, if someone comes in and makes an assumption about my humanity, that's very, very different. But if you don't know something about my experience, I I have no problem sharing that. I'd rather you ask me than to ask the client.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, good point. So, with that, what kinds of things do you think make a good coach? Because you've trained coaches, you've had an eating disorder, you recovered, you have worked for organization training mentors, and now you work as a coach. What do you think makes a good coach? What do you think you have to stay on your game or keep in mind? I think you've already said a couple things, but still.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, okay. Well, when you have to be extremely patient, I think that's the thing. And you said this when you trained us. You can't be tied to the results. You cannot be tied to the results of this person's actions. Like, I mean, you're gonna have a client who's good today and terrible tomorrow. You cannot be tied to this, and you have to have no judgment. No judgment. The last thing they need is judgment. So it's interesting because I've interviewed people who wanted to be like mentors, and I think that those are the people who come in and think they're gonna save someone.
SPEAKER_00I know, I know. You're not you know what I say when someone says that, I say, and what do you do when they turn to you and say, I don't want to be saved?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I think self-awareness is extremely important, particularly if you're gonna be a peer supporter, but even if you're not being a peer supporter, I think you need to understand how you're reacting to things. I've met people and I've worked with people who have no poker face at all. And I'm like, you have to make sure that whatever they're telling you, like you're not reacting to everything. And I think that comes with time. I mean, there's nothing at this point that a client could tell me that I would be surprised about.
SPEAKER_00It's like nothing. Imagine 45 years later. Yeah, exactly. I'm sure I don't hear, I don't hear much that surprises me, you know.
SPEAKER_01But you have to be able, you have to be empathetic, you have to be patient, you have to be able to stay in it with someone, not tied to the results. I think you need to be honest too. You know, a lot of people with eating disorders, myself included, we become really good at lying. And I like to model honesty for my clients. So sometimes I'm like, I have no idea what I'm supposed to say right now. And I know I'm supposed to say the right thing, and I don't know what I'm supposed to say. And it gives them permission to say, you know what, I don't know either.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And to know that you're not gonna guess or just make up some BS for their own benefit. You know, and I think that's cool. So well, I feel I feel really proud right now, even though I know you were already had all the skills and the aptitude for this, but I just feel proud hearing you say this stuff, like not be attached to the results and all this stuff. I remember, I remember, I read the books, I read it.
SPEAKER_01I did my homework. Um yeah, no, I mean, I think it's just true. It's 100% true. I think my clients like me because one, because I'm a peer, but also because I model what freedom kind of looks like. And you know, I mean, I feel like a free person.
SPEAKER_00I think freedom is a good word. I use that word. I say, I'm gonna help make you free. So you're not following some kind of hijacked brain rules or obligations that this part of you is telling you you have to do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly, exactly. Like I share with them my quirkiness and my weirdness that I love about myself. I'm not for everyone. You know what I mean? And I talk about how much I love not being for everyone.
SPEAKER_00I think um, what about uh that brings up the soul aspect of healing, you know, because I called this healing body and soul, and you've mentioned it a little bit in this idea that yes, you have to heal your relationship with food, but it's not just about the food. If we only just talked about that, we might be able to get people to stop symptoms, but for it to stay, to stay recovered, that's the whole key eight in the book. And I don't think we've ever talked about this really, what your take is on that, how you bring that into sessions. Anyway, any thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_01You know what the thing is, I really believe my recovery was about healing my relationship with myself. So, again, knowing myself, liking myself. Eventually I got to the point where I love myself. I really do.
SPEAKER_00I think that is soul level stuff. I think when you do that, then you naturally take better care of your body. You do.
SPEAKER_01I respect myself, and I think that's the thing. I don't apologize for my existence anymore. That was a big thing. I don't fear being myself. I think I used to always fear that people would see me and they wouldn't like me or they would find something wrong. And now I live unapologetically, and I think that's for me is freedom. And it was all about me saying, hey, this is who you actually are. You're not the things that your eating disorder tells you. You're actually a good communicator, you're a good trainer, you're a good daughter, you're a good sister. Now I see myself as a good mother, I'm a good partner at times. I'm like, oh wow, you know, I'm a mediocre guitar player, you know, I'm these things, I'm not with the eaters. So self-discovery and having this life and this identity and being able to say, and I tell my clients all the time, I think I'm really dope. I really like myself, I really do. And I like to tell them that because it's good to model that for them. Exactly. Like what you like yourself, yeah. And you admit it. Not only you like yourself, you admit it. Yeah, and I say, I'm really great, and I want you to challenge me on it, you know. And I tell them all the time, it's not I'm not for everybody, and I'm okay with that. And so for me, the whole soul part is about just really discovering myself and embracing myself, not running away from the fear that I'm gonna be seen. See me, see me. I want you to see all of me. I'm unapologetic about it, and that has changed my life completely. That changed how I show up in spaces and how I interact with people.
SPEAKER_00So, what about you know, you have a daughter, and you must think things about having a daughter and she's growing up in this world and anything. What do you hope to see for the better in the world she grows up in? Now, believe me, that's a big question, especially right now. But I know. Oh God, I know.
SPEAKER_01I let's take out of the out of the context of what's going on in the world right now. I think I celebrate her. You know, it's interesting. There was this thing where it was like, don't praise girls for how they look. And I don't think we don't praise them, I think it's a balance. I tell her that she's smart, beautiful, kind, and funny. Those are the four things that you are so smart. All the things beautiful, kind, and funny. Oh my God. I praise her. I model my relationship to food. Oh my god, this is so good. I eat a variety of different foods. We eat fried chicken, we eat candy. I'm from Philadelphia, so we have this thing called water rice, italian eggs. We eat Italian eggs, it has tons of sugar. We love it. We do those things. We eat fruits and vegetables, we are intuitive. I celebrate her a little. I'm like, look at your little thighs, your little belly, you're so cute. I just want her to feel good about herself. For me, it's about modeling for her within my, you know, through my actions, but also surrounding her with other people, particularly women, who talk about more than just how they look. Oh my God.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I like the fact that you said, you know, it's not that we can't praise that. It's just that if we're only praising for that or over praising for that, then that becomes the benchmark or the measure stick. So you got to mix it up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I want her to feel good about how she looks. You know, I mean, I've met women who say, Well, we never taught the how I look, and now they feel a little bit like, well, there comes a deficit in that too, because it's like, well, am I pretty? I don't know how to be pretty. I'm just like, oh my god, it's a whole other thing they have to go through, kind of discovering how they feel about how they look. And I believe my daughter is beautiful. I tell her she's beautiful, but I tell her she's so much more than that, too. And I think I also protect her from images and from people saying things that could be harmful to her. Someone said to me the other day, it's like, well, you know, it's not healthy for a baby to be chubby. I'm like, why are we judging a baby's weight? Like, I mean, I get it if the kid can't be active or anything, but some kids are just chubby. Like, when that becomes an it, why is that an it? Do you see what I'm saying? People are so like from a child's born, they're analyzing their looks, their weight. And I'm just like, don't do that around my kid. She's gonna eat if she wants to have another cookie. Now, mind you, she might be bounced off the walls, but I'll let her have a second cookie.
SPEAKER_00You know, if it's in that balance, isn't it? It it's really a balance. In some ways, I think, and I could probably have a whole podcast on this, how the eating disorder world, especially people who are are in recovery and trying to, you know, be oh, what's the word? In balance about all this stuff, butts up against the wellness world, you know. Like you said, there's a reckoning coming with what's happening with all the weight loss drugs and all that. I mean, there is a yeah, there is a reckoning coming, and we just have to do our best to balance with it and not let anything get too out of balance. I mean, you definitely don't want image to be more important than substance, you know? Yeah, it's a lot of people. And so it but but I do think that people who have had eating disorders really are aware when they're raising kids and not just daughters, you happen to have a daughter, but they're really more aware of these things. And you know, I think people who have really recovered from an eating disorder have what I see is almost learned a way since you dealt with your demons already, you have a more balanced way of dealing with some of the stuff that comes at you, and so you're a little more prepared to see it and not make a big deal about it with your kid, but know how to guide left or right on the track, you know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I completely agree. I think I'm aware of what could happen. I'm not, you know, I'm not sitting here harassing her saying, honey, it's fine. Intuitively eat, intuitively, she's she's you know, she's trying to tube. But I I think I'm just aware of the fact that I want her to be a full person, a whole person, you know, and I'm gonna de-emphasize certain things and emphasize certain things. I am trying to find the balance with her. I'm trying to teach her healthy coping strategies. We're already breathe, honey, breathe. You know, that's not really working with the toddler, but breathe, you know, you can put it into it. It's a good one though, but maybe not for a toddler. Yeah, and you know, I'm like, it's okay to be upset. It's okay. Let mommy know when you're upset. So teaching her coping strategies so that she doesn't turn to not just like an eating disorder, but anything, yeah, right. Or to cope. And so I am a very much aware of that. I'm very much aware of the world we live in where everyone's losing weight and portion sizes are getting smaller again. And I'm just like, what?
SPEAKER_00But I know. Don't you feel like don't you feel like sometimes didn't we already deal with that? I feel like things recycle. You've been around long enough, and these issues recycle, you know. Just like interesting. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I want to know if there's any books you want to recommend. If they haven't read Uh Fearing the Black Body by Dr. Sabrina Springs, I believe it's Springs. Oh, yeah. Yeah, my body book. Excellent book because it really is about the racial origins of fat phobia. I think we have stopped talking about fat phobia, and I really want people to start talking about fat phobia again, particularly now that it's like you don't have to be fat, you can take this drug. And I'm like, there are people who are like, I don't want to take the drug, I just want to be myself. And I feel like their voices are getting silenced again.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's what I mean by coming back around. It's so interesting. And I just say, you know, we stopped talking about that, but you know, we can't stop talking about that until it's not happening anymore, you know. So I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I think that you know, that's a really excellent book about fat phobia. I think say it again. It's called Fear in the Back Body, The Racial Origins of Fat Phobia by Dr. Sabrina. I want to say it's I don't think it's string, it's either Strings or Springs, and I apologize. I think it's Springs. I think it's Sabrina Springs. I remember this book. I've met her, she is such a humble, gracious, intelligent woman. The book is it's academic, but also you can read it. You can understand it if you're not into academic reading.
SPEAKER_00So for listeners, we'll put Project Heel and Anad and both of these book resources that we talked about today into the show notes, as well as how to get a hold of Jeeva. If you want to take her up on being a coach or something like that, we'll put all that in the show notes. I always like to end the show by asking if you have a question for me, because I think it's only fair if I question you the whole time. So you need to ask questions of Carolyn, I would just text you.
SPEAKER_01You know what I would love for you to talk about, actually? And this is and I I actually share with people what you told me. When I called you, I said, I said, Karen, I need to ask you a question. And I said, What do you tell people about weight, like managing their weight in recovery or something like that? Like what happens to your body in recovery? And you told me, live the life you want to live and your body will adjust.
SPEAKER_00Was this when you called me and I was in Costa Rica? Probably.
SPEAKER_01I'm always told you.
SPEAKER_00I remember having this conversation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's so funny.
SPEAKER_01And I asked you about that, but I want you to talk a little bit more about the idea of incorporating any kind of movement into your life in recovery because you know, I'm an active person, I'm a yoga teacher, I have a talked about that. Yes, oh yeah, I'm oh yeah, and I use yoga and mindfulness with my clients all the time. All the time. I have I have tons of thoughts about that. And I'm an active person. I also live in New York, I live in Brooklyn. This is a walking city, so I'm walking and living my life. So I don't find myself needing to exercise. I think about you when I think about the fact that I have the body of someone who lives in New York who has a toddler who teaches yoga, you know, and that's and that could be a lot of different things. It just happens that I look a certain way, but this is the life, this is the body I have. I think that really resonated with me because I was like, oh, if I'm happy and this is the body that I'm living in, this is the body that I'm happy in, then why can't I be happy with my body? You know, if this is the body that's carrying me through a happy life, this is the body I'm supposed to have, perhaps. You know, that's what makes sense to me. But I don't know if I'm interpreting that correctly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, you're definitely interpreting that correctly. I mean, I think the thing is where do you put your emphasis? And it's shifting the emphasis of my body is something I have to mold into shape, you know, it's a project that I have to fix, shape, you know, repair, change, or I'm gonna live my life. Like I like to hike, so I'm gonna live my life doing the things I want to do and have the body that goes with that. And so people can walk at all shapes and sizes, people can dance, people can get in water and do water stuff with all shapes and sizes. So I do try to get people to do something that they like to do. Now, some people doing that change their body shape. That's okay. I mean, I'm not against anybody who gets into some kind of, let's say they decide they like square dancing and they end up losing weight because now they're burning more calories, but not, you know, excessively. But it's not like I'm against anybody. And I think what happened in the eating disorder field in a way was there was this reluctance to help anybody, or how do I want to say this? There's a fear that if you're treating somebody and they happen to lose weight, that you might be seen as someone who set that as a goal. I've never set that as a goal. I don't care how much I've treated people, I treated this guy, probably the heaviest guy ever treated was 500 pounds. And we never even set weight loss as a goal. I mean, he had it in his mind when he came to me, but it doesn't matter. That's not the goal. The goal is health, freedom, happiness. Start doing the things that you want to do. He started walking, by the way. Well, he he had to lose 100 pounds first, and then he could go do a little bit, you know. And it wasn't okay, how do you lose weight? It's okay, you want to be able to walk, you want to be able to go and visit your sister, you want to be able to do these things. Let's get you first walking up this little ramp, first walking around your house. You know, that's an exaggeration, but I think it's all the same thing. Yeah, no, it is.
SPEAKER_01It is about what is your goal? The goal isn't weight loss, the goal is freedom and happiness, like you just said, you know, and so for me, I'm really happy. Like I love going to the park with my kid. And so I love the fact that I can walk to the park with my kid. I walk, that's what I do. And I've built my life around things that I enjoy. I always tell my clients, I say, Are you happy? And I have about maybe about 60% of them always tell me yes, the initially time I asked them that. They eventually go, I don't think I'm happy. I don't think I have much in my life. I say, Well, if you love dancing, go dance.
SPEAKER_00You know, do that. You and I both know people who are really fit, they go to the gym all the time, they're only eating clean foods or whatever, and they're not that happy. No, they're not. No, they know still they're I mean, I mean, I'm not saying they all aren't. I know people who are fit and are happy, but I I know those people who think that's gonna lead to happiness, and it's just off the mark, that's all. I'm sorry, they're not happy. Have you ever had a clean diet?
SPEAKER_01I I'm sorry, I need ice cream. I I I can't, I I I need I I don't care if it's vegan ice cream, you know, whatever it is. I need some sugar.
SPEAKER_00I need some it's so good. Okay, that's a good point. I'm thinking of people I know, like some vegan people I know that are also fit and whatever. I mean, I just think when we're trying to help somebody who knows that they've been derailed, that helping them find what can bring you joy, you know, and that kind of goes back to the soul piece about being on this planet. And can you walk outside and take a look at the moon? Do you have music that you like to listen to? And if you want to move to it, fine, you know. It's just that we got this, you know, the way the world became. I mean, it's interesting to note that there was a time when there was no scales, people didn't weigh themselves all the time. Do you know what I mean? And there were no diet products. We're talking about capitalism.
SPEAKER_01It's it's expensive, you know, to lose weight. It you can pay, it's there's money to be made from telling people that their bodies are wrong. And so that's true too. And that's why it's everywhere, you know. Buy my product, it'll help you be happy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we just it's just extremes, and which is why I come back to balance and freedom and joy, you know? Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_01We have to talk about yoga and eating disorders in another time because I would love to tell you about that. Because you talk about soul, I mean, being present has changed my life.
SPEAKER_00Like Yeah, I think presence is a big part of soul because that's when you sit there in presence and you realize I'm not my thoughts, I'm not my feelings, I'm this underlying essence. And yoga was all about that. Yoga, meaning to unite, was unite body, mind, and soul.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, it's an aspiration of self. And so when I teach my classes, my classes are challenging because I incorporate a lot of balance poses. And I love balance poses because they're I call them the great equalizer. I when I have like the really athletic guy who comes to yoga through, and he's like, Oh, yeah, this will be easy. And he gets in my class, and I've got like the you know, 60-year-old woman who, you know, a curvy woman in the classes, she's like in there doing all the poses and he's struggling, he's falling over. Standing there in tree pose, and he can't do it. He's in, you know, she's in warrior three on one leg, like you know, yeah, all over. And I love it. I love getting people's. I say, you know what, if you're not focused, you're not present, you're not gonna hold the pose.
SPEAKER_00And you know what, Montanito, it used to be almost diagnostic, and we can tell when people were way off balance and couldn't hold balanced poses. That was meaningful, you know, on the mat, off the mat. That is really true. All right, I guess I'll have to have a yoga and eating disorder one.
SPEAKER_01Yes, you should, you should. I know a couple people we should invite too, so just let me know.
SPEAKER_00All right, I will. I'm gonna be following up on this. Yeah, thank you so much for being here. There were a lot of words of wisdom, as usual, from you, and I'm glad our paths are still interacting a bit here and there. Yes. And thank you, listeners, for tuning in. Don't forget, if you want to stay with us and listen to future episodes, just click that subscribe button and you'll hear about upcoming episodes of Becoming Recovered, Body and Soul. And thank you, my lovely guest GB.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much, Carolyn. You'll always see you all next time.
SPEAKER_00Okay, bye-bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening. I know how difficult and scary it is to understand, treat, and recover from eating disorder and body image issues. And I'm here because becoming recovered is possible and worth it. And I know that hearing from others who've been there really helps. So if you like this episode, please subscribe to the podcast where you'll receive updates regarding future conversations on becoming recovered body and soul. And if you're interested in working with an eating disorder recovery coach or training to become one, contact us at CarolynCostin.com where you're going to find information about coaching at the Carolyn Costin. Take good care of your body and soul, and I'll see you next time.