The Most Expensive Mistakes We've Made In Business & How YOU Can Avoid Them

Ever get caught in the slippery slope of "just this one favor"? If you give a mouse a cookie, he'll want milk… then your nights and weekends. In this episode, we break down the mindset and mechanics of protecting your time, because no one will value it more than you do, and how that single shift transforms profit, sanity, and client quality. You'll learn the difference between a customer and a client (and why only one belongs on your calendar), how to stop pricing with your wallet in their pocket, why order minimums are the simplest boundary with the biggest payoff, and how saying "no" (without excuses) ends scope creep before it starts.

Highlights

00:00 Don't make these same mistakes we made early on in business.

03:45 Who should sponsor the podcast?

15:30 What assuming your client's budget is costing you.

22:00 How to set and keep boundaries that honor your time (and your clients too.)

27:00 Just because it's how everyone does it, doesn't mean it's how it should be done.

33:45 Is doing favors hurting your business? 

38:45 Your business is NOT for everyone.

43:00 The first hard lesson we learned in business.

Resources + Links

Apply for Luxury Clothier Collective Mastermind HERE

More resources for custom clothiers HERE

Watch on Youtube

Follow

Appointment Only in IG: @appointmentonlypod

Resources + Links
Apply for Luxury Clothier Collective Mastermind  HERE
More resources for custom clothiers HERE
Watch on Youtube

 Follow
Appointment Only in IG: @appointmentonlypod

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

If you give a mouse a cookie, he's going to ask for milk to go with it. If you give a mouse a glass of milk, he's going to ask for a napkin. Then he's going to ask for this and that. It's the same type of idea. It's bad behavior that you, if you don't value your own time, may find yourself allowing people to operate with. And here's the thing: nobody's going to value your time more than you do. So if you're not valuing your time, why would anyone else? They're not going to, and you can't be upset at them if they don't. This is Appointment Only, the podcast for entrepreneurs building profitable high-end businesses. If you want control, profit, and freedom from the endless hustle, this is for you. We're Kenny and Danny, twin brothers from day one and business partners for 15 years. We're sharing insights from our own experiences running a high-end small business, the highs, the lows, and what we've learned along the way that will help you build businesses you enjoy running that aren't running you. We're here to help you continue creating businesses that support the life you actually want to live. Your appointment starts now. The podcast brothers are back. Appointment only is back for another anxiously anticipated episode. You know what? Honestly, back by popular demand. Popular demand. We hear you. We loud and clear, everybody. We see the the cries out there on social media. More, more, more. We get it. We get it. We get it. You can't stay away. And you said, listen, a few episodes, that's not nearly enough. That's not we're not even getting close to scratching the surface. Barely even started, and we're desperate for more. You know what? I think all of you appointment only podcast. You know what we need is we need like a like a name for the those of you diehards. And there are, there are many of you. We need a name, and it's it's tough. Like like all of you, what comes to mind right away would be AOs, but that kind of sounds like a hole, which is not what we want to be calling our listeners AOs, but like appointment only, all of you appointmenters. I mean, there's really I appointmenters. Woo, that's got a ring to it. Rolls off the tongue. That one, that's an earworm right there. So help us out for those of you listening. Can you what would you like to be called? You know, what's what would you like your nickname to be? Fans of the it's it's a rare situation where you get to choose your own nickname. Exactly. And that's the position we're putting you in. That's right, Rockstar. You got that right, cool dude. You you you listeners are just a bottomless pit. You just can't get enough of this podcast. Well, speaking, speaking of can't get enough, here but let's let's change it up and we're gonna put this at the top today. Like, subscribe, rate, review, five star. Five star only. But I just want to remind you, that's important. I was listening to a podcast the other day that I've been binging, and they moved where they asked people to rate and review to be towards the top. And I was listening and I and I was thinking, oh yeah, I'm 20 episodes in and I haven't even done that yet. I hadn't followed them, I hadn't rated them. So I did. I did all of those things. It would just be really helpful because there are people out there who want to become an appointmenter. They don't know it yet, but they want this. And they need your help to find us. And if there's someone out there who you think might like the podcast, please send it to them, share it with them, because I'm sure that that would be very helpful as well. But for those like and subscribe, we'd really appreciate that. And just something to think about. I understand that it isn't necessarily and quite frankly, I was a little surprised how hard it was to like and subscribe. Right, and and to find it because I don't know if there's something wrong with me, but I have the hardest time maneuvering the Apple Podcast interface. I find it so complicated. Well, let me just throw this out there. I think Apple TV has the worst interface of all the streaming platforms. I think Peacock is pretty bad too. Nah, peacock peacock is a piece of cake. Okay. I don't watch a lot of Apple TV. The only thing I watch on Apple TV these days is morning show. I can maneuver I'm I'm kind of like a cocker though. I don't think that one's gonna work either. That's what they call the big fans of Peacock. NBC calls their for their, yeah, their watchers that uh I think for sure. And it's it's good. It's catchy. That one's catchy. We'll need to find something uh equally, equally upscale. But but DM us if you have an idea of what you'd like to be nicknamed, because I would love to refer to you as that. I want to use your given nickname if you would like, but I can't think of anything other than listeners, which is lame. That is very lame, and it doesn't do you justice. Let's just be honest about that. No, it doesn't. It doesn't. You deserve an awesome uh nickname that makes sense. You know, I'm I'm not going to say rock stars. Hey rock stars, hey rock stars, hey business freaks, hey business bitches. Thanks for tuning in. We're not gonna do that. So we'd love some help with that. We'd love some we'd love a rate and a review if you can find it. Apparently it's nearly as well. Just on Apple. I only tried on Apple. I should probably go rate and review them on the other things as well. Uh, the other thing we need your help with is getting us a sponsorship from Lagonitas Hopi. No, I'm just kidding. I would love that. That'd be great, but we're not actually thinking that's gonna happen. How much money do you think we've spent? Oh, I mean on Loganita. Let me get my calculations. Many, many thousands of dollars. Here's the thing about the sponsorship, though. Free product will not do. I also need now. I'm getting picky. I'm getting picky about my my imaginary future sponsorship. I don't just want the free product, I need it delivered. Oh, yeah. Because it is not convenient buying these things. You gotta find them. They come in four packs, but as bottles, they're all like individually wrapped. So it's very hot hard to stock up. And you often can't find the cases. So that's what that's my ask. You know, they say, they say asks for something specific. That is my ask from Lagonitas. I would love a sponsorship for Hoppy Refresher, and also I would like it delivered. According to my front door, according to my calculations of the studio, that would be great. According to my my calculations, I think I personally spend about $4,000 on my personal Lagonitas Hopi Refresher every year. Really? Okay. I actually would have guessed it was higher. It's about $38 each time I go because I get two 12 packs and cans. Right. Cans. And I go I do that about twice a week. Whoa, you buy a lot. I don't drink it at home anymore. It's all I drink at home. I don't drink it at home anymore just simply because I didn't like purchasing it. I thought it was annoying and I it's just, you know, more things to carry. So I've got a I've got another sponsorship idea. Oh, let's hear it. It's it's a beverage as well. Stoke Cold Brew. Okay. The green one. Yeah. Only interested in the green. What I've only had the green because that's what you like. So that's just all I've ever bought. What is, is there something wrong with the other kinds? Not that I'm aware of, but I just don't like the taste of the other ones as much. Well, that's an important part of drinking something, is you want to like the taste. You want to like the taste. Uh-huh. So Stoke Cold Brew, if you're out there, I know you're listening. I mean, let's be honest. Who isn't? I know you're a part of the group. They're an appointmenter. They're they're a huge appointmenter. I know you're an appointmenter. See though how important it is to have a good nickname for the listeners? Because we would love to refer to them, you, the listener, as something so cool, but it's just not, it's just not rolling off the tongue. And I'm having a hard time thinking of anything. We could really use your help. We could really, we could really use you. Stoke, Lagonitas, there you go. That's our ask. And it's not that annoying to buy Stoke, right? You'd be happy to do that at the store. I think when you're sponsored, I don't send it to you. I don't love going to the store, the grocery store. Okay, so we'd like it all delivered. And on that note, DoorDash, if you're out there listening, if you're out there, please sponsor us. I ended up ordering from bed, a box of Kleenex, and a box of waters from at like midnight last night. I don't know if I have a little case of the sneezys, a little cold, or if I actually have seasonal allergies. I did develop, you know, not to brag, but I did develop seasonal allergies as an adult. That's sweet. It's very cool. It's uh pretty sweet. So I can't tell if what's going on right now, if those of you uh listening, you appointmenters, are saying, wow, that main host has an even deeper voice than he usually does. And even a touch more nasally, too. And that would be why. That's so that's what's going on with my voice is I don't know what's going on. It's something or another. It's either allergies or a little bit of a cold. I was traveling over this past week. I was in New York City, and it's entirely possible that I could have picked something up somewhere in the middle of Times Square. That's where you go in New York. I love Times Square. Oh, yeah. You can't, yes, absolutely. I was like elf. I was eating the gum out of the subject. What's your favorite Times Square spot? I love the MM store. Hey, what would you say? What would you say? Olive Garden. Oh, that's a good one. I am I kind of like Bubba Gump, but we used to spend a lot of time in Times Square when we used to go to New York for our still go to New York for our trade shows, but we don't go anywhere near Times Square these days. But we used to stay right off of it because what else are two Minnesotans to do in New York City? Like you go to Times Square. We never thought, though, that that was the hub of where the locals were. We were aware. We were aware that Times Square was not cool. But what we liked about Times Square was just on the other side, there was this place. It is now closed. It actually closed a couple months after we quit drinking, which I'm pretty sure is unrelated, but it was called Heartland Brewery. It was absolutely our spot. If any of you listening, if any of you appoint appointmenters knew us back in those days, you actually probably were at Heartland Brewery with us. We've probably been to Heartland Brewery with you. It is just, you know, looking back, it probably wasn't that great, but we loved it. It was a we always had we had our reserve table by the window. And we would, it was like it served as like our home base. It was so fun. It was just a great spot and we loved it and we looked forward to going there. And it was on 43rd Street, actually in between Bryant Park and Times Square, about equidistant. So I always said it was off Bryant Park. That's a lot cooler. Not Times Square. But it is that's where it was. It's not around anymore. But that was one of the reasons why we always kind of stayed outside Times Square. Was we were like, well, we you know, we want to be close to the home away from home. We want to be close to Heartland. So that's what we're gonna do. If you got to do it, you gotta do it. It was also walkable to the things we needed to do, kind of up off the park. But anyways, all that to say, apologies if you are noticing that my voice sounds a little bit different. Umbody's thinking about it as much as you are, and quite frankly, I'm sick of hearing about it. Right, okay. Well, you got it. He thinks he's the boss of the podcast. He's not. I'm the number one guy of this group. And do you know what that's from? I'm the number one guy in this group. I don't know. Vanderpump rules. I've never seen it. Oh what? Nope. You you and Anna would like it. I think so. You should watch it. Okay. You guys would really, really like that because um, well, I'm you know, I'm just that's all I'm gonna say. I thought I would think it was so stupid, but I was hooked, and I'm the number one guy in this group. That's that's a direct quote. And you know what, Jax? I get it. Because that's how I feel right now. He thinks he's the number one guy in this group. He's wrong. I'm the number one guy in this group. I'm the main host. That's why I sit in this chair, and uh that's why that's why I'm in charge. Someone's gotta steer the ship, and it's gonna be me. Captain. That's my new nickname, Captain. Let's dive in. Lagunitas, happy refresher.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

That makes me happy. You think that one will work? I think they'll like that. That makes me happy. I think they'll like that a lot. Who will? The appointment. Lagunitas. Oh, the lagunitas. Okay. Yeah. I'm just trying some things. We're we're seeing how it lands. We're seeing, we're seeing what happens. We'll see we're seeing what gets around. Yeah, we're we're moving around, we're moving, moving here, moving there. Uh-huh. Trying this, trying that. Very flexible, very chill. You if you know me, you know how chill I am. So chill. How cool. I'm, you know, I barely have a pulse. I'm so chill. Yeah, going with the flow. I'm so chill. Uh, quite the opposite, in fact. I'm sure as we get through the podcast and as we're sharing episodes, there will be examples of just how chill I am. Just how zero chill you have. What we want to talk about today is in relation to what we are sort of talking about with Amanda. If you listen to our interview with Amanda Brickman, which I would highly recommend you do, listen, I am just going to be honest. This is the lead guy in the group talking. I am just going to be honest. I am not generally someone whose preference in podcasts is guest episodes. When I'm listening to a podcast and I do listen to some, I primarily like to listen, I like the hosts. That's why I listen. So when they have guests on, yeah, sometimes I like the guests, but sometimes I just don't really care. And then I'm guilty of sort of looking through the the episode list and and skipping to something that I am interested in. All that to say, I I listen to more podcasts than you, and I agree with that. Thank you. You're welcome. That's the number two kind of talking. I'm gonna go back to sleep. And you know, if you want to chime in at any point, you you just feel free just to wait till I stop talking. You got it. So Amanda was on our show uh a few episodes ago, maybe it was last episode, uh, and she is amazing. Amanda Brinkman, she's so smart, so creative, so awesome. She created and hosted the show Small Business Revolution, which originally was on Hulu. It's now, I think you can catch you can catch all the episodes now on on YouTube. I believe it's where it's currently streamed. Isn't that confusing when the streamers will like trade content? It is strange. I we were watching, I can't remember what it was, but we were watching it on Netflix, and then it was, you know, it alerted us like this title is no longer available. But then we found it on Hulu. I just don't understand the way all the licensing works. But anyway, small business revolution right now, you used to be able to watch it on Hulu, but now you can watch it on YouTube, which I would very, very I don't know, I don't know if there's something that I would recommend more for small business owners, especially in a certain stage of business. I think small business revolution, well, I know it was absolutely revolutionary for us, but I think you will find it not only enjoyable and entertaining, but super, super inspiring and also really educational. So if you haven't watched it, I would recommend you do that. But as we were having our conversation with Amanda, we were reminded of some things. Mainly some mistakes that we uh made early on in business. And that's always it's easy to look back on and it's easy to shift the focus to where you're at now and where you want to be. But I do think calling out some mistakes that we made in business is important. And I I do think oftentimes people are guilty of only focusing on what's next, what's next, what's next, that they forget to look back and realize just how far that they've come. Yeah. I I yeah, and I I think especially small business owners, entrepreneurs, we're very driven people. Driven people. And and you're generally not taking a beat to really reflect on the things that have been accomplished. You're hyper focused on what needs to be done because chances are you're responsible to do a hell of a lot. So we wanted to take today's episode and and dedicate it really to the mistakes that we used to make. And we wanted to kind of riff off of some things that were addressed in our interview with Amanda and just tell some of our own experiences as it relates to mistakes that we made at certain stages of business and what we learn from those mistakes and how we do things differently now. We are truly gonna riff. Uh, if you're watching this, you can see you're probably thinking, where's the lead host's iPad? Forgot it. I'm used to him having an iPad. Well, yeah, I forgot it. So I don't have that. So we don't have our notes, which is fine. We're gonna riff, you know, this is appointment only, and we're we're ready for riff. We're ready for a good time because you know how chill we are. So chill. So chill. Go with the flow. As we were talking with Amanda, and it's not just Amanda that we find this in common with, but when you're talking to small business owners or people who've started businesses, or even just business leaders, you realize that you actually have a lot more common than not. You realize that a lot of the same things that you find frustrating or that you find difficult, that person also experiences. Maybe some of the details are different, but overall the themes are very, very similar. So a lot of these mistakes that we used to make, I know hit close to home for many of you. And if maybe you're listening and you're thinking, oh yeah, I do that too. Or hopefully you're saying, Oh yeah, I used to do that and I figured it out. Yeah, that used to be something that I did. But maybe you're saying, Oh yeah, I do that now. Still, the point of the episode is to encourage you that there is a way out. And you don't have to continue to operate in these ways because they are doing you a lot more harm than good. The first thing that comes to mind for me is we used to operate with our own wallet in our client's pocket. Basically, just we would use our own financial limitations and restrictions and we would project that onto our client. We would assume that they only wanted to spend a certain dollar amount or they wouldn't have scheduled with us if they didn't want to spend maximum this amount. And by the time we realized that this was a mistake we were making, I don't even want to know. I mean, you do the math on how much you've spent on hoppy refreshers. Seriously. I don't even want to know how many tens, hundreds of thousands of dollars we missed out on just because we were making assumptions about people that we never should have been making. And really, this just comes down to your price points. You know, where are your price points? How did you set them? I mean, there's a mistake. Seriously. Setting your price points based on what someone told you your price points should be or what experience you have dictates the the amount that you're going to charge instead of actually doing the math on what these things cost you, coming up with an appropriate margin and charging that much and growing your margin then as you continue to sell more. And we, you know, Amanda, Amanda in our interview talked a lot about the margin and the profit, the profitability being the lifeblood of business. And, you know, the price points is huge. And the mistake of of your wallet being in your customer's pocket or your or your client's pocket is is simply simply put, it's you're capping them at an unnecessary place. Yeah. If you sell products or services, it's their job to balance their own budget. It's their job to figure out what it is that they want to spend. It's not yours. You probably hear us mention Danny just did this. He he said customer and client. And he we don't use those words interchangeably. The way we see it as it relates to our business, uh, we see clients as people that we are either actively working with, you know, over the course of their order in real time, or they're people who repeat. And if we've worked with them once, but they don't repeat, they're a customer. People who buy once are a customer. It doesn't matter how much they spent, it doesn't matter how recently it was, if they haven't repeated, or you're not in the process of working with them again, they are a customer. But those people that you build a relationship with and that you see time and time again where there's a loyalty, uh, a mutual loyalty, that's a client. So that that's what we mean when we say customer versus client. We do see them as different types of people. And the business we're in lends itself to both. Some of your businesses, you only have one or the other. And depending on what industry you're in, there's obviously going to be different nuances with what you charge and how you have pricing conversations. We're we're not advocating here for trying to trick people and getting them to spend a lot more than they thought they were going to have to. What we're saying is when you're in business, especially when you're new in business, you have a tendency to put your own financial restrictions or hesitations on the customers. And you say, Well, I wouldn't spend this much on what I'm selling. So you know, they won't either. And that's just not true. Certainly a mistake that we made, and a mistake that we see a lot of business owners make. We talk about that a lot in our uh in our clothier mentorship matters. Mastermind where we're we're talking about, you know, how are they supposed to buy something if you've never shown it to them? Or how are they supposed to buy something they've never seen? They won't. We also talk about the idea that valuing your time, and Amanda mentioned this. She took, she used the term uh uh time affluence. Valuing your time is one of those things that so many small business owners don't do for way too many years. I don't know why. I mean, we used to not do it either. It's it's so easy when you're running your own business. It's so easy to not value your time because you are, especially right away, you need to do so many different things and you need to focus time and attention on so many things that you're not good at, that you that you are good at. You're wearing all of these different hats. And that that ultimately is, it can turn very easily into a bad habit. Oftentimes, business owners, I think, take that bad habit that they've built and they just continue to repeat that behavior and that pattern over and over. And a lot of times it feels easier. I'll just do it myself. You know, I'll just get it done quick. And it doesn't matter if I'm very good. Uh it's just easier to do it myself. Or maybe I'm the only person around. So I have to do it myself. And oftentimes I think it takes, it takes something to snap you out of that rhythm. It takes something, maybe, maybe you accidentally get a really good client or you make a really big sale and you're like, wait a second, this just put all of this into perspective for me. That's kind of how it happened with us. It was accidental. It we it certainly wasn't on purpose. We accidentally worked with somebody who valued his own time, who in turn valued ours. We made the biggest sale we'd ever made by far, and that put everything we were doing into perspective. And it was actually funny because at that same time, we were also in the process of working with a customer. Make that very clear. Very much a customer. And he had bought one thing, and he was, he was just being a real, you know what. And he was, he was being super rude. He would did not, he didn't value our time at all. And he was totally taking advantage of the fact that we were responsive. So we're working with this guy, and then we're also working for the first time ever with a with a guy who ended up being a great client for a short period of time, but he was hot and heavy for for about a year, you know, placing huge orders, more than we'd ever sold, more money than we'd ever seen come through from one person. And we're working with both of these people simultaneously. And it was really easy for us to be able to identify hmm, which one of these is actually worth it?

unknown 24:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Which one of these is actually gonna be worth moving forward with? And it was just, it couldn't have been more clear, but it was at that moment where we recognized oh, wait, this awesome guy is valuing our time. He's being respectful and he's paying us a ton of money. The end. I mean, there's nothing more. I was wondering where you were gonna go with this. There's nowhere to go from there. It's just it is what it is. And so let's figure out how to run a business that caters to that person more than that caters to this person who doesn't respect your time and is gonna. I mean, the people who spend the least are the most work, always. There, there's there's a concept that every small business owner, any business of any size, understands. The customers generally who spend the least have the highest expectations and require the most of you. Maybe that's the first time you're hearing someone else say that. And you thought that you were doing everything wrong because that was your reality. No, that's a very, very common thing. And if you ask 10 other business owners, my guess would be probably nine of them would say that exact same thing. Yeah, if you have any sort of conversation with somebody who's been in business for a while, that is something they have absolutely experienced. And as an entrepreneur who's running a small business, like I said, sometimes it takes something else for you to understand that your time is valuable. And it takes something even more to take that understanding and start to apply it to your business in a way that has a monetary impact. Now, this this I think is where it hits that kind of that next level, gets into that next zone, where now all of a sudden you are supposed to pay people to do things that are not a good use of your time. You are also supposed to not sell a product that by and large is not worth your time. You're also supposed to stop working with customers or clients who, by and large, aren't worth your time. And as an entrepreneur, what it feels like in those moments is it feels like you're letting money slip through your fingertips. You're spending money on something that you could have done for less expensive or for free. But it would have taken you X number of hours and that's not worth it. Or you're saying no to somebody who wants something from you and you don't have anything else going on, but you know that that's a slippery slope and you can't fill your calendar up with this type of meeting, there's this kid's book that my mom used to read to us called What If Everybody Did. And that sensibility is one that we've carried with us in business, where as we were sort of coming to terms with what our time truly is worth. And by the way, the the practicality of valuing your time is an order minimum or some sort of a requirement on people with what is the minimum they can spend and work with you. Our order minimum in our line of work is astronomically high compared to what most other people selling custom suits would require of their clients. And in fact, most other people doing what we do don't even have an order minimum. That's one of the first things we share with the people in our custom clothing or mastermind is the order minimum thing. That is the one of the easiest ways to absolutely guarantee that your time is not being wasted. But the what if everybody did is a kid's book. I mean, it's essentially what if everybody jumped in the mud? This is what would happen if everybody did. Yeah, it's a it's a picture book and it's it shows, you know, it's just silly things like that. You know, what if everyone shows a field of flowers? What if everybody picked off a bud? This is what would happen if everybody did, and it's a whole bunch of stems. I don't know. I was I was looking, I was trying to find the book um to read a couple of the pages, but I couldn't find it. And then I'm remembering jumped in the mud, picked a bud. Uh, what would it be? Some other ones. Slam the door. This is what would happen if everybody did, and it's a whole bunch of broken doors and buildings falling down. Something on the floor. Stomp on the floor. This is what would happen if everybody did, and it and it's it's broken floors and people that fall through. Okay. You get the idea. Aside from how impressive it is that we are able to still, I mean, you think about how impactful that must have been when we were what, two, three when my mom's reading us that book. That's the idea. Think about your business, think about what you do, think about the behavior that your customers do. That's the worst. And think about what would happen if all of your customers did that. You know, here's another kid's book that I think is very much in line with this idea. If you give a mouse a cookie, he's gonna ask for milk to go with it. If you give a mouse a glass of milk, he's gonna ask for a napkin. Then he's gonna ask for this and that. It's the same type of idea. It's bad behavior that you, if you don't value your own time, may find yourself allowing people to operate with. And here's the thing: if nobody's gonna value your time more than you do. So if you're not valuing your time, why would anyone else? They're not going to, and you can't be upset at them if they don't. So, of course, if you give a mouse a cookie, he's gonna keep seeing what he can get away with. He's gonna keep asking for stuff. If you give a mouse a cookie, then he's gonna want milk. He gets milk, he wants a napkin. He gets the napkin, he's gonna want to look in the mirror and make sure he doesn't have milk on his face. Then after he does that, he's gonna want to do, you know, whoever knows. I don't remember how the rest of the book goes. But it's this idea where you can't be surprised when someone's not valuing your time if you yourself aren't valuing your time. But as soon as you make that transition, and this is a mistake so many, so many business owners make, they just don't ever get to that point. Because, like Danny was saying, they're so fixated on the well, but it's money and it's something and it's better than nothing. And having a having anyone who wants to spend even a few bucks with me is better than nothing. No, it's not. Yeah, I don't know that it is. I don't think so. And that's a mindset shift. And that mistake that people make that we made for for a long time, it holds you back and it keeps you small. Just change your own business that happens to be inside the industry. And that's something that I think oftentimes, you know, when when things are going wrong, it's like, I need to stop trying trying to change the world. That's never gonna happen. What I can change, though, is is my response to my own world. Be the change you want to see in the world. Exactly. I just made that up. Yeah, you just made it up. Just so good. But hopy refresher, be the change you want to see in the world. But it's true. Everybody's industry has things that frustrate them about the industry that they're in. There's no such thing as a perfect industry that you love everything about. Everybody has things that are by and large, quote unquote, industry standard. It's work that are annoying and that that you know are frustrating. But you're not going to be able to change the entire industry. You can, though, change the way that you're operating within your industry. And that could end up changing certainly the way that people respond to you in your business. That's a good call to take the pillow out from these chairs. I took the I took the pillow from behind my lower back, and there was a point where Kenny was like, Why are you doing that? That's nice. That's much better. I know. Sit back, sit back and you and relax. Chillax. That's that feels a lot better. I like that. Thank you. Sometimes he does have good ideas. Every once in a while I have a good one. Yeah. Good idea. Uh-huh. That's uh, let's see. What what other what other mistakes did we make for far too long? And and this is we never made any mistakes. Going back to valuing your time, like I said, sometimes it takes something else to get you to see that you were not valuing your time. This is the point of appointment only, Pod, is that we can address things that we learned far too late. I really wish we would have started valuing our time before we accidentally started working with that guy and made that awesome sale. Yeah. Because, first of all, I bet he would have bought a lot more. I know, I know. I've thought about that too. And second, I can guarantee you we would not be dealing with that other frustrating customer simultaneously. No, because we would have set the stage that we value our time. You don't have 24-7 access to us. You don't get to disrupt what we've got going on in our lives outside of work. Here it is. Here's here's another one. And it's it's related to valuing your time. Because what ends up happening when you value your time is you end up saying no. And we spent way too long being afraid to say no. And I think that not being afraid to say no was a lesson that we learned even later. I mean, it was years later. Cause I remember having this conversation. It was probably the early or mid-2021. And we finally just said, okay, we've we've got to stop doing favors for people. That's that's when it was got turned a few times. Yeah, it was in relation to it was in relation to doing favors, where as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, you got into what you do because you love it, right? That's I I can almost say that that is true across the board. Doesn't matter what you do. Doesn't matter if you started your own. What business you started. You liked it. You liked something about it. You liked something and you started this business because you love it. Now, when you when you turn that corner outside of I'm doing this because I love it, and you turn into I'm doing this because this is my living and this is my this is my livelihood, you have to look at it through a business lens. That was something that took us a little bit longer to not necessarily to turn the corner on, but it it took us too long to stop trying to do favors for people because we just love what we do. And we used to do, you know, we you mentioned just the time affluence and why it's important not to just pick up a whole bunch of odd jobs because it's easier for you to do it. That's essentially what we had to remind ourselves of. You know, just because someone asks about this, oh, do you mind doing this? Or do you mind just like overnight shipping this quick? It's, you know, or doing this favor for me or helping me do this thing. Uh, you know, just because you can doesn't mean you should. What if everybody did? What if everybody client every client asked? If you give a mouse a cookie, you know, all of these stupid things, but they are very real lessons to learn. It's just not a good use of your time. And it's hard to say no when you could. You know, it's hard to say no. But remember what I said about uh my grandpa, grandpa king? The the first the only lesson he wanted to pass on to me about business was say no. And if someone says why not, you just say, because I don't want to. I I mean I've never said that to someone, a client or a customer asking us to do a favor, but it it happens all the time. Oh, do you think you could do this? No, that's just not really what we do, and that's all you need to say for whoever it is in your industry, whoever is asking, hey, do you mind if you do this or could do can you do this quick? Or it's really not a big deal. I love when they just tell you it's not a big deal. Yeah, it's not a big deal for me. It's no big deal to do that. Uh no, that's just not what I do. That's fine. That's all you need to say. It's not what I do because it's true, it's not what you do. Another mistake that we made in business, and I I'm sure this was touched on in our interview with Amanda as well. A lot of these things were, but I don't think you can emphasize enough the importance of niching, the importance of being exclusively for a group of people that you speak uniquely to. And do we know if it's niche or niche? I don't know that we know if it's niche or niche, but I say niche and I say niche, it just kind of depends on the mood. If I'm all hopped up on hoppy refresher, I'm niche. He's yeah, he's a niche bitch. But if I'm trying to keep it cool and I don't have a lot of cold ones in my system, it's niche. Niche, yeah. Uh-huh. I like that. That's good. But that is something that when we first started our business, if people were to ask us who buys your product or who are you for, we would say, well, really, honestly, anyone who wants this. Yeah. I I want to work with, I remember we used to say, I want to work with everyone. Yeah. Everyone. I want to work with everyone. Everybody. No, you don't want to work with everyone. No. And I I think with time comes clarity, comes focus. With it, with experience comes clarity and focus. And I can very clearly say these are the types of people I don't want to touch with a 10-foot pole, having worked with enough of them and having enough experience that it doesn't, you know. What are some names? You talk about niching, and what happens when you identify like who you're for is you generally just automatically then can by deduce what is you what do you call that? Deduction. Yeah, deductive reasoning. Deductive reasoning, you can identify, okay, well, if I am for this, that means I'm no longer for that. And it's very clear, it's crystal clear. We get inquiries from people every day, and oftentimes it's not gonna work. Yeah, I mean, that's what happens when you run, especially when you when you start leaning into exclusivity and luxury. And we're working on this with our with our custom clothing mastermind group, but we're talking about the things that are that set you apart from the other people doing what you do and the ways that you can lean into more exclusivity. Being exclusive isn't bad. And and I think sometimes especially small business owners are afraid to say no. I I don't know why, why the word exclusive has such a negative connotation because inclusivity is the focus, and people want are trying to be more inclusive and they're trying to be more tolerant and accepting, and and exclusivity is I think seen as the antithesis of that. But it but in a business setting, I agree with you. Yeah, I know. I it it doesn't make sense and it's not a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with exclusivity in business, it it's it's required for certain businesses to do a good job for the people who want to work with you. Yes, you have you have to have the planning and you have to have the time. And the only way to guarantee you're gonna have the time is to be counting on it because you have a booked appointment. That's how it goes. But I do think that the word exclusive definitely has a bad rap. So sometimes when we're talking about exclusivity, you know, some people will be like, oh, well, I don't want to be exclusive. You should. You have to you should you should want to be exclusive. It's not a bad thing to be exclusive, but we no longer do that thing where we say, I want to work with everybody. Because that's silly. That's that's that is stupid. And that's also not realistic. It's not realistic, it's not possible. Even if it was possible, uh that's not a good use of your own. Not enough time in the day. So uh-uh. You don't want to work with everybody. It's just it's it's this the sooner that we can wrap our minds around that, the better off we'll be because we'll be focused on a clear end goal. And the only way to get to that end goal is to understand where you're going, but then to understand also all of the different routes you're not gonna take. We used to uh this kind of this kind of goes back to the well, actually, no, this is totally separate. We used to price match. Oh yeah. And I I I don't want to say that too loudly because I'm embarrassed. Uh this was we only did it a few times. Yes, very, very early. We learned this lesson really, really early on, but we did used to do it because I think the temptation is to want to say yes to things, you want to do people a favor, you want to be nice, you want to be inclusive, and then you end up making really dumb decisions. And I think that's when we didn't understand margin in any capacity. Yeah, we were so focused on the remote. I mean, because volume revenue. Volume business is price match. Yeah. Bring in your coupons and we'll match the price. That's volume behavior. You can't run a margin business matching people's prices. That's insane. And we weren't matching everybody's prices. No, but we would hear from people and they would say, Oh, this place reached out to me and is offering the same thing. I'm I'm doing air quotes for all of you appointmenters who are listening. The appointmenters thing, it's not gonna happen. It's not working. I'm just trying, I have to say something. Listeners, to those of you listening, I'm doing air quotes. The same thing that you would do, and they're they're doing it for this cost. And there were a couple of times where we said, Yeah, I think we can make that work. That was really dumb. We never should have done that. And what ended up happening, because here's the thing it's not just about the one time that you let this client or this customer get away with that. If you give them else a cookie, but then that's their new expectation and moving forward. And this happened. The next time they came around, they said, Yeah, I'd like to come in and I really like that price point we were working on last time. So you're not doing yourself any favors by doing a favor for someone because it becomes the new standard. And that is a very, very fast luge to the bottom. I I think too, in talking in terms of Is the luge like the Olympic like thing that goes like super fast? I think so. In Park City, was that the luge? Yeah, that's what it is. It's a luge to the bottom. Louge to the bottom. I do think we we made the distinction between client and customer. Here, here's another distinction for you. A client wants you to stay in business. Yeah, a client will never ask you to match a price of somebody else. A customer doesn't care. They don't care, they just want to get the best deal they could possibly get. Yeah, they don't plan to work with you again. And if you go out of business because you're giving too many people great deals, they'll they could not care less. No, they'd be happy about it because at least they got something for cheap. Yeah, that's bad. I mean, but it's true. It's so true. Another mistake that we made earlier in business was we would change our behavior based on who we were with at the time. As in, not not like, you know, if we had some bro, we'd be like, oh yeah, dude, like this is how I talk too. But like we'd be working with somebody who was in maybe more of a conservative industry. So we would dress that part and we would take them through a process that we thought they would appreciate based on the industry that they were in. Yeah, we were doing a lot of like customizing of the process. Instead of just doing our thing, we we just didn't have enough confidence in ourselves to realize that when people are hiring us or working with us or being drawn to our company, it's because of what we have going on in our business and in our company. It's not because they want us to cater everything to what we think they might want to hear or see. That's not where I thought you were going with that. I thought you were gonna say we were changing our process based on people's. Promises. Oh, which is what we always tell people. Don't shade your process based on promises. Because you know, we'd hear that all the time. Oh, well, you know, if I like this one, I'll be back. Yeah. If you give me a good deal, then I'll then I'll come back. If I like, if I like the grand total, then I'll definitely be back. And you know, that was just something that it didn't, you know. A lot of these lessons you only have to really learn a couple times, then all of a sudden you really, you really wise up. But that is something that we were tempted to do, especially early on. Oh, well, they're saying that they're saying that they're gonna do this if I do that. So I'm gonna do that. Well, that's you know, people are all talk. You know, that's one of the very first lessons we learned in business at all. The first lesson we ever learned in business was that people are all talk. Do you want to share how we learned that lesson and and what it did to us emotionally? Well, all of you appointmenters know that we started our business in ties. And when we started our business in ties, we were hearing from all sorts of people who had amazing intentions, a lot of excitement. They were super excited about buzz, a lot of buzz, but just buzz building. And you can't also here's a lesson. You can't pay your bills with buzz. You sure can't. Turns out if you could, we would have. You can't pay your bills. You know what? I think that is a timely lesson, and and it certainly applies to like the culture today. You can't pay your bills in reposts or cut or comments or shares. Unless you're an influencer, then that is how you pay your bills. That is how you pay your bills. But if you're, you know, unless you're an influencer of Lagonitas, like we are. We're big-time influencers. You can't. But there were all sorts of people who were really excited about our ties. Tons. And hundreds making all sorts of promises that they were gonna for sure buy them and and couldn't wait for them to get on store shelves. Are they for sale yet? So they can just buy them like crazy. Where can I buy? Buy them all up. Nom nom nom nom nom. I want to eat them all up. But we ordered our inventory based on what we felt like were really conservative numbers so that we could sell out quickly. We thought we were gonna sell out. And we still have inventory. This is 15 years later. We still have some inventory from our first round of ties because so few people actually put their money where their mouths were. People are all talk. And it's not like we were when we put the ties on store shelves, it's not like they were crazy priced. No, but they just didn't do what they said they were gonna do. And back then it was super frustrating because it's like, man, everyone said they were gonna buy ties. We had at the time, this was before Instagram was really a thing. It was, it was like, oh man, we have these this number of hundred of likes on our Facebook page. There's many people following our Facebook page. So we just, you know, we thought, well, if everybody who's following us buys a tie, we're sold out. And and we were doing this whole thing where people would help us name the ties. So we'd like post a picture and then there were all these comments on Facebook dibs on but on that one. I that's the one I want. We we thought we were, we had it made in the shade. We thought we were retired. And boy, we're boy were we wrong. But uh, you know, we you can't be mad at you can't be mad. No, and and looking back, it's like I'm so glad we learned that lesson then me too, before we entered into the the industry that we're in now, because by the time we shifted our focus and started doing custom suits, it's like so-and-so says they're gonna buy a suit for me, and it's like, yeah, whatever. Whatever. I mean, there's no expectation that anybody will. I never believe anybody. It's like, you know, you turn almost into a cynic. Just like I know no one's listening to this podcast. You know, everybody's like, oh, I can't wait for the podcast. I can't wait. I can't wait. And it's like, yeah, you're not gonna listen. You're not an appointmenter. You're not this is only for those of you very exclusive appointmenters who you know what's up. You know, you know what's going on. But you know what I mean. In whatever industry you're in, I'm sure that if you could pay your bills with people's promises, you also we would all be, we would all be retired, living in the Florida Keys and have an going fishing. But here we are working because that's how it goes. And that's a lesson that that that's not necessarily a mistake that we made, but that's that's a lesson we learned really early on. And I'm really glad we did, even though it really sucked. Yeah, and I I remember in 2020 seeing restaurants go out of business and posting like their farewells on social media and reading the comments of people who are like, Oh, I'm so sorry to hear this. I've lived in the neighborhood for 12 years and I really wanted to try that place. It's like, hello. Didn't you? You used you would get fired up. I correct me if I'm wrong. Was there ever a time where you responded to someone that said you're part of the reason they closed? Yes. And it wasn't, it was in 2020. So it was like completely sober, yeah, clear-minded. And I still I stand by everything I said. I and I I I said something along the lines of there were multiple places that closed, and I made comments on multiple pages in response to these types of comments where it's like, you are the one of the reasons why this business is closing. Or there was a there were another one would be, you know, oh, I love I only I I went here once and I was wanting to come back. Right. Like once is not enough. Yeah. Put your money where your mouth is. Too many customers, not enough clients. That's exactly right. Way too many people cut are being customers and they're not at home like that. Yeah. One day, one day I'll get to that restaurant. Yeah, one day I'll try that cheeseburger. That's the other thing. With what we sell, I totally get that most people aren't gonna prioritize it. That's prioritize. That's a whole episode, prioritize versus afford. Oh. That's when we drive home to our custom clothing mentorship group. It's like, it's not about affording, it's about prioritizing. And growing up, growing up, our parents never said the word afford. And looking back on that, could we have learned some valuable money lessons growing up? I think they we should they should have used the word afford. I I think that would have been really clear. We could have we could have learned some. We could have learned a little more uh financial discipline from our parents, but they never said the word afford. And and I don't ever use that word now either, because I hate the word, because people use it as a reason to not prioritize things. A bit of a transition from mistakes we used to make to hopefully not too preachy. Our goal is we don't want to, we don't want to sound like we're talking at. We we really want this to sound a conversation. We're just having a chill convo. Convo. And we're chill. And listen, and that's the thing about us. So chill. We're so chill. I'm much more chill than you are, right? But I I I get worked up and I get passion. I'm a passionate, I am a passionate man. Oh. But I am, I am a passionate man. That sounds so weird to say. I don't think you should say that anymore. Okay. Let's think of a different way to phrase that. You are a you are I have a passionate person. I mean, that's so much better than a passionate man. You're I get work, you get fired up. I get fired. I get fired up. He's someone who gets fired up. I there we go. That's what that works. Well, you know what? I'm someone who gets fired. The thing you need to know about Danny is he gets fired up from time to time. You know what? That's just what that's just what happens from time to time. And there's really no other way to explain it. There's no getting around it. There's no if ands or if ands or buts about me getting fired up. We both, though, get fired up. And so when we're talking about something that's so close to home and something that we deal with every single day as it relates to running a business, especially when you start focusing on what it means to actually try to run a great high profit business and a high-end business, that's when we can really get going. So I hope that listening in was something that was enjoyable, gave you something to think about. And what I ultimately hope is that you're listening to this saying, yep, me too. Yep, yep, yep. And you're in agreement rather than saying, Oh, shoot, I'm I'm all I'm actually doing all these things wrong. I don't think anyone listening is doing all of the things wrong that we used to do. I would imagine that you're probably listening, saying, Yeah, obviously. I know I can't be everything to everyone. That's why this is my niche or my niche, depending on how many happies you've you've thrown back. How many hobbies have you had? That's the real question. But I really that's that's ultimately the hope of a lot of these conversations, is it's really supposed to be there's nothing that feels better than when you're listening to something or you're watching something and you find that you are receiving confirmation that what you're already doing is smart. That's why it's working. That's why I keep listening to the book. Someone has to be the most expensive. Why not make it you? But if you're going to be the most expensive, you have to also be the best. That book is the title of the book. It's a bit of a mouthful. It's a mouthful by Andrew Griffiths. And I've listened to it multiple times, and it is such great confirmation for us. If you're if you're a business owner looking for confirmation or looking to be challenged, it kind of depends on what stage of business you're in and and what you do. I I highly recommend that book. In my opinion, that has been the best overall book, business book that I've ever listened to. It really is uh it has the power to be life-changing. The thing is, you don't you can't just listen to a book and have it change your life. You need to actually do the things that are recommended you do in the book. And the author, Andrew, does a great job of giving you action steps. And it's it's such a great, it's such a great book. We send it. That's the first thing that we do when we get someone new that signs into our mastermind is we send them that book and we say, listen, we send it as an audio book because that's how I listen to audio. I noticed I was saying that's my favorite book to listen to, yeah, to read. He doesn't read. Danny actually can't read. All he can do is hear. La Guintas happy refranchier. I just find it so much. I mean, you can listen while you're driving, you can listen or watch when you're on your walks, like Danny does watching things. But yeah, that's I would definitely recommend that if you're looking for some business content to consume in between our episodes here. Uh someone's got to be the most expensive. Why not make it you? But if you're gonna be the most expensive, you also have to be the best. That's what you should look up. Andrew Griffiths is the one who writes that. Uh, please like and subscribe. We like you. We would subscribe to you. We would follow you. We are following you. Look behind you. Here we are. Look to your left. No, we we would really appreciate if you like, subscribe, send this to someone who you think would appreciate it, who you think might need to hear it, uh, who you think is already doing this really well and just needs a little bit of confirmation. We would really appreciate that. Please submit any questions you have. Yes. Because as you know, we like to address one specifically at the end of each episode. Do you think they know? Have we even done it yet? I don't know. Have we? I don't think so. Okay. We really want to. So here's the deal is we want you to submit your specific business questions, whatever they may be. Uh, whether it's, oh, I'm having this problem with the with the customer. What should I do? Or how would you recommend I say this? Or I'm looking to go full time. What do you think? You know, whatever it is, whatever your business question might might be, please shoot us a DM. Uh, that's probably the best way to get in direct contact with us. Shoot us a DM and we would love to, we'll keep it accountable if you accountable. We'll keep it uh what's the word I'm looking for? I was gonna say professional. Professional. We will keep it professional, but no, we'll keep it confidential. We'll keep it confidential if you'd like, but we would love to answer whatever is on your mind that's feeling really relevant and really fresh. I mean, that's that's why you're listening, and we want to be as helpful as we can be. So thank you so much for listening. 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