The Customer-Driven Leader (Episode #5) ~ Dr. Tom DeWitt

James welcomes XM Global Collaborative Founder Dr. Tom DeWitt. In this episode we discuss the globalization of experience management, challenges and solutions with a cultural twist!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Good morning or good evening, everybody, and welcome to 2026 and the first new year episode of the Customer Driven Leader podcast, where we explore the critical role that the leader has in creating and sustaining winning cultures that positively impact customer experiences. I'm your host, Dr. James Killian. Thank you for being with us. And this is usually the part where I say thank you to the XM Global Collaborative for sponsoring this great event. But in this case, I actually get to say thank you, Tom DeWitt, founder of the XM Global Collaborative, for sponsoring this great event. Thanks. And I really appreciate you being here, Tom.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Yeah, me too. This is great. It's not very often I'm on this side of the microphone.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

So it's true. It's true. I mean it's kind of fun. You've definitely had your stage persona up there for a while, but uh you've just been running around. So so for anybody who doesn't know Tom, he is uh founder and former director now of the CXM at Michigan State University uh program, uh where I was faculty along with uh prior guests like Lou Carbone. Um a really great experience, uh and I can't thank Tom enough for giving us all that um that role. Um in his role, he was dedicated to advancing customer experience management globally through all kinds of programs, workshops, academic initiatives. And as previously mentioned, he's now founder of the XM Global Collaborative, which I'm gonna let him tell you a little bit more about, but was essentially founded to expand professionalism and education across both employee and customer experience practices in a worldwide forum. So um, Tom, I I always tease uh is a little bit like where's Waldo. So so I asked Tom where he is at this point in the world, and he said he's in Thailand for the foreseeable future. So really appreciate you being here uh late in the evening with us. Thanks, Tom.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

You bet. It's great to be here.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Yeah. So I always, as you know, um uh having sponsored uh this podcast, I always start and finish with the same um kind of an approach. And so uh with you all I'll do the same here. So I would like you to finish this sentence. A leader, team, or culture is customer driven when what?

SPEAKER_02 2:25

Oh I should have prepared better for this. Prepare better for this. Um I you know, I truly believe it's when when everyone in the under organization understands what it means to be a customer-centric organization. Um I think we trivialize it, play lip service to it. You know, nine times out of ten, if you ask a leader, is your is your organization customer driven, they'll they'll they'll they'll say it is. Or is it customer-centric, they'll say it is. But when you when you actually break it down to their operating practices, it falls apart. Or maybe the leader purports to be customer driven and and says he leads an organization that's customer-centric. But question is, does it does that make it its way down to every employee in the organization? And nine times out of ten, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

So yeah, I agree with you. I I think that's a great response, actually, and it really aligns with um some previous guests who I've had on, um uh other speaking that I've done. Um, and and then as you know, I've just completed writing a book and uh lots of interviews as part of this book, and and uh I I think I've made you aware that this is part of your interview, so you're going in the book too.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Nope, no problem.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

But a very consistent theme that I've heard from uh from you know expert practitioners like uh Matt Eagle and Professor Rob Markey uh from uh Harvard Business School in Bain. Um you know, something that I think is pretty consistent is that they say that uh no leader really goes into a role with the goal of not being customer driven, right? They all have good intentions, but to your point, uh it's the little things, the daily practices, the habits. And if those aren't there and the structure isn't there to support it, then the tendency to want to be customer driven may still be there, but in practice, you just don't see it happening.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Yeah, yeah. Um that's so when we think about go ahead, Tom. Sorry. Go ahead. No, I was just gonna say Yeah, I I often utilize a 15 uh three-dimension 15 item scale for organizational customer centricity and dimensions, but it's been a while since I've used it now. Um but uh when whenever uh I think that the first part is um leadership it really around leadership vision and and and so forth. The second one is more around collaboration, and the last one is around implementation, which is real operating practices. And they start out okay, you know, you know, they maybe customer satisfaction measures go up alongside um um uh financial measures. Um the the the the leader of the organization reinforces it verbally and maybe even through through his or her own behaviors exhibits it. But then when it comes down to actual practices, people working across the organization and sharing of data and encouraging employees um to make recommendations and and and have those operationalized, um it just falls apart. So yeah um and that's why I feel that you know for experience management to truly be effective, it's gotta come from an organization that's truly customer-centric. So you've gotta, you know, you you you've gotta lay out the foundation, not not just in terms of what you talk about, but um your operating practices across the firm on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

So totally agree with that. I mean, that that that lack of structure and follow-through is a really big issue, and and and really something that's central to the thesis behind the customer-driven leader that I'm really pursuing and that I pursued as part of the research is because leaders today are under more stress and pressure to deliver short-term results. And unfortunately, um, that tends to take away the long game perspective in a lot of cases. And so you you see people engaging in these behaviors that that may you know achieve the goals for the quarter or for the year, but they're doing it in a way that unfortunately has a compounding negative effect on future brand love. So when we when we think about that structure and process, and we'll come back to that for sure. Uh, I definitely want to talk more about that. Um, but also let's let's make it a little bit personal as we start um uh moving towards the rest of the the conversation here, Tom. Um so tell can you think about like a great example of a bad experience that you've had as a consumer that has impacted how you think about experience management?

SPEAKER_02 7:48

Sure, sure. Um I was staying in a hotel. Um I won't I won't say where or the hotel chain, but um had flown a long distance to get there and uh um was traveling with my wife and uh woke up at you know, when you wake up at four, three or four in the morning, it's like should I go back to sleep or should I try to get up or finally decide I'm gonna I'm gonna make a cup of coffee. And there was instant coffee in the room, there was a steam kettle um there and um you know, usually the kettle's unplugged, right? And um filled it with water, went to go plug it in, and lo and behold, the kettle didn't fit any of the outlets in the room. Except except the one the TV was plugged in, you know, this big TV. So I'd uh physically move the TV, unplug it, put the steam kettle in and you know, to me what it illustrated is you know, um what what I find often is organizations kind of get fist fixated, and we're doing it with AI right now, they get so fixated on latest trends or things that are being done, and just a failure to um just a failure to understand the the basic competencies of experience management and what it entails. I had a similar experience, different hotel, um, same country, but again, won't name countries, but not saying it's a country level factor. Um one of the most beautiful hotel rooms I've ever stayed in in my life. Um the uh the interpersonal service on the ground floor with everybody was incredible. Um the general manager of the hotel was there to greet my my wife by name as she went to breakfast, and and we didn't we couldn't figure out how she figured out her name and everything, and all the staff were great. But when we went to take when I went to get out of the shower and I to hang up my towel, there's no place to hang it up. There was no hook, there was nothing. And you know, and and I don't want to sound like I'm the picky guy, but these are all basic little things if you've done, you know, journey mapping is part of the process, but it's understanding the the the purpose and the reasoning behind it, right? So, like the hotel room was gorgeous, you know, they hadn't missed the detail in the room itself with the furniture and the accoutrements and everything that were in the room, but they just lost a basic thing that, you know, at least once, if not twice a day, our guests are gonna take a shower. Now let's go through those steps and what does that look like? And what are they gonna need? You know, they're gonna do this, they're gonna do A, B, C, and D. Same thing with the the the kettle. It was interesting. They made sure that the room had everything, but they never thought, they never thought about how are they gonna use it, you know. Um, what it what does this look like? What are the challenges gonna be? You know, one of the other, and I and I hate to make all these examples about hotel rooms, but oftentimes you have to be a contortionist or a gymnast to reach the toilet paper and and and and and hotel, you know, right, and hotel rooms. You're you're doing this or whatever. Um, but you know what's amazing. I was on a I was on a cruise ship, I think it was a river cruise in Europe, and it was amazing. Let me give you a positive example. So I've kind of blown out the negatives here, right? So same situation in the bathroom, and and um but here they figured it out. They figured it out because what they did is they put the toilet paper roll inside the vanity with a little slot in the vanity door for the toilet paper to come out the vanity. So, you know, they were thinking, they were saying, you know, where on the wall do we put the toilet paper roll without giving any thought to how the person's gonna use it. Instead, they thought about, you know, the space and the limit, you know. Um, you know, you're thinking about a uh a bathroom on a crew on a ship, usually they tend to be smaller. Um, and they installed it inside the vanity through the door, so it was right there where you need it. Two very contrasting, you know, in one regard, everything's beautiful and impeccable, but they never took, you know, they never took a journey-based approach. Um, or you know, we always talk about empathize, you know, and I think this is one of the things that bothers me about our industry too, is we always talk about empathizing with a customer, but how often do we operationalize that? You know, it's one thing to try to understand, but then say, okay, now having understand the customer and not just the steps they go through, but you know, who are our customers? Where are they coming through from? How have they traveled? You know, they must be tired. Because what's interesting, same hotel with the the the towel thing, um, you know, from the Bellman to bringing cold beverages and the lobby, and all those little things were great. All the you know, all those details, but somehow they missed the detail on the towel. Now, the good thing at that hotel, this same general manager, she was very proactive from day one. She said, Um, if you have any feedback, please let me know. She made she was very proactive from from day one, the first time we met, um, and wanting to know if there were any issues, if anything could be improved, they wanted to know about it. So I did. I, you know, having this issue with the bath towel, I told her about it. And what was really great is the next day when I saw her, she said, I've spoken to the owner and and we've already discussed it and we're taking action on it. Now, they didn't come and and you know, I was hoping they would come and install something in in the in the bathroom. But I was only there for a few days, but I have no doubt that they did. So, you know, I think that's a key thing. Um, for the most part, they got it. They missed this little thing because maybe they hadn't taken a systems approach or a journey-based approach to it. Um, but they had created the culture in the organization that allowed for the feedback and the utilization for the feedback to improve the experience. Unfortunately, the hotel where I had the steam jacket kettle, not the same culture, you know. Uh it was it was clear when I walked in the, you know, into the lobby, nobody ever greeted me. I don't not even sure they knew I stayed in the hotel. But right.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Well, and that and that those those opposing um stories really, you know, to your point about operationalizing um this beyond just having empathy, uh, really comes back to fundamentals, right? And and and the the fundamentals and the empowerment and what's the expectation that's being set. Because you know, the expectation with the example of the GM who uh was truly interested and eager to make an impact on the future experiences that guests had is very different than probably the person who this steam kettle got delegated to, and they just went out and found whatever they could and threw it in the room without even thinking, does it fit any of the plugs? Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:59

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

So pivoting a little bit, Tom, um, you you you know, I I always talk about, you know, where are you? I mean, my gosh, you just in the last few months, it seems like you've been in in Europe and Singapore and Vietnam and now Thailand. And I know that you're a uh a student of the world, I'll I'll say.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

And um, you know, one of the things that I really appreciated about you and your perspective about the um the program that I had the privilege of teaching in, the MSCXM program and the Broad College of Business at Michigan State University, is that you really stressed the importance of integrating a perspective on diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging into the program itself, which um I was a big fan of. And one of the themes that we're um, I'll say unfortunately seeing uh over the last, you know, say year is just a massive de-investment in DEI, um, and really even just general health and wellness. Um What do you think the downstream impacts of those de-investments are going to be in employee and customer experience and the ability for employees to deliver that superior customer experience in the foreseeable future?

SPEAKER_02 17:24

That's a that's that's a that's a that's a great question. Um let let's start by understanding, you know, let's start um let's start by understanding what those words mean, what diversity, equity, and inclusion mean. You know, um so diversity in terms of um, you know, I think all too often when we think of um diversity we think of just differences, you know. I think people simplify it and say we need more people of color working with us. You know, I I heard that uh and and I heard that at the university um as well when I was here. But no, you know, I mean, um diversity is when I think of diversity, I think of of um of different backgrounds and different perspectives. And you know, the one thing that I see with all my travel, and to your point, you know, I travel like nine countries in two months. And um just, you know, when you see the differences, like when you uh all these examples that we've discussed in delivery, um, but when you see the the differences and how experiences are are delivered, and um many of those differences can be attributed to cultural differences and and both positive and negative, you know. I mean, I've grown to love, uh having lived in Thailand now two years in a row, I've really grown to love the people here and their acceptance of others and acceptance of differences and and their general demeanor and their friendliness and care for one another and their ability to make people feel welcome. You know, I I've experienced the healthcare system now in um in in Thailand on multiple occasions, both in hospitals and clinics, um, over the past two times I've been here. And never have I felt so welcomed. Where often in the US, I I I feel like they're doing me a favor, you know. Um, they make you feel like they're doing you a favor by having you there. Where I feel, you know, whenever I'm in the healthcare system here, I'm made to feel welcome. So when I think of diversity, I think of diversity and thought, diversity and and beliefs, and and a lot of those do come from different cultural or ethnic backgrounds, and they and it's the sh the uh and diversity, you know, like in our field, um, diversity and disciplines. Um, you know, often we think of user experience or customer experience, it's important or employee experience. So um, yeah, you know, it's understanding that diversity is more than simply checking a box um about ethnicity or gender or otherwise. It's creating an environment in your organization where, and this I think this is where equity and inclusion come in too, that differences are encouraged, you know. It's important to get people from different backgrounds, um, whether it's your sexual orientation or where you've lived, or you know, and to me it's like a and sometimes the analogy of a salad's been made, you know. I mean, do you want to eat iceberg every day? You know, you just want to eat iceberg every day, or do you want, you know, a mix of greens and tomatoes and it's it's just so much more enriching and and and enjoyable, which is why I choose to live abroad. You know, I I spend most of my life living in the US and different states, you know. Granted, part of that was in Hawaii, which feels like a different country. Um, but you know, that's why I love living abroad, because to me, every day is an enriching experience because I get exposed to influences and stimuli that are so different and that I learn from, you know. And for me, a lot of it is learning about experience delivery. And, you know, like in the banking industry here is fascinating. Um, bank branches and shopping malls, they generally have a floor or an area in a shopping mall where they might have four or five different. Different banks next to each other. Um and it it kind of tells you boy, people here must be loyal to their banks, you know. When you and they're open seven days a week.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

Yeah, fancy that, right? Um and they don't in general you don't see bank you don't see teller comers. You see chairs in front of, you know, you you see let me sit down in front of you. If I'm gonna do business with you, I want to sit down in front of you um to understand you. You know, this isn't about moving people through a line and getting them out, and even the seating area for waiting customers, and I'll send you a photo, the latest one I snapped of um Bangkok Bank. Uh it's gorgeous. It was just gorgeous. But my point is from a diversity standpoint, it's not just about meeting quotas, it's about, you know, it is about getting diversity of backgrounds in your organizations, because those people, you know, when I think about everything I've seen over the past two months in nine different countries, and if you look at, you know, if you look at the complexity of the backgrounds of people in the US for through immigration and and everything else, and how their upbringing and their cultural influences and where they've worked and how they were educated, and gender differences, you know, when I think of what women go through in their life as opposed to men, and you know, it's important to have those differences there so you have the opportunity to be exposed as an organization to differences of beliefs and uh and opinions and shaping what you do. Um, you know, I mean, how one, you know, how white males, you know, well, and I hate to, you know, go along just gender lines, but you know, how how one group of people view things is going to be very can be very different than others. Um, you know, males are gonna look at things differently from women because of their roles in their life and and even physiology and you know, and and a whole wide range of things. And then now to to also bring along different cultural perspectives on top of that, um, or differences in skin color. I mean, the reality is depending upon your skin color, you know, maybe um, you know, like we've learned things about um the skin of um black people in terms of um dry skin and you know, you know, for health care. So it's always uh to get as much many of those differences as possible is just from an information standpoint is just is just amazing. Um, but also creating uh an environment, so moving on to equity inclusion, you know, creating an environment in an organization where people feel supported in their role and they don't feel threatened or intimidated, you know, um, whether whether it's along gender lines and and and people feel pressured or or otherwise, but um you know it can only benefit people, you know. I guess that's the way I've always felt. Diversity can only benefit people. The more diversity you have, the richer the environment you have, whether it whether it's a a workplace or whether it's an entire country. Um so when companies cut back, they lose that. You know, they lose that and they go, you know, what they do is I think they they they um in my humble opinion is now you you you know when you when you now you're minimizing people's opinions and you're you're minimi, you know, when you reduce equity in the in the workplace, when you reduce inclusion in the workplace, um you know, let alone the diversity, how does that make people feel about their job every day, right? You know, yeah. Um everybody needs to feel safe and secure and hopefully empowered in what they do. Um but then to do it in a workplace with people from diverse backgrounds, it's so enriching.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Um, so you know, yeah, I agree. And and even just from the um not even just the philosophical perspective, but actually from a business results perspective. Yeah, exactly. Because one of the things that in order to be truly customer driven, or even customer-centric, I'll say just customer aligned, right? That that's a really good way of phrasing it, being customer aligned as opposed to customer derailing. So in order to be customer aligned, you have to avoid group think. And you know, to on a point that you made, right? You know, if if it's just a bunch of you know, 25-year-old white males sitting around the table, that perspective of who their customer base is and how they think about them, and how to be empathetic and how to deliver something that meets the demands of the customer today, but also is drawing that customer towards some innovation. The thing is, you can't innovate if you're stuck in groupthink. And there have been, to your point, dozens upon dozens of studies that have shown that homogeneous groups, so same sameness, right, outperform heterogeneous groups only in the short run. But if you really want to be viable and market competitive and think differently, you have to have a heterogeneous group. You have to have differences of thought, diversity, differences of opinion in order to think about those nuances with different groups um and their needs, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:08

Yep, yep. Well, just a mindset of the employees, too, right? They're gonna be more, you know, most people I think are gonna be more productive in a in a heterogeneous, you know, heterogeneous um um environment um where yeah, diversity of thought is valued and different back, you know, different perspectives and backgrounds are are valued. Um it's just more enriching mentally than to your point, being in an environment where people are very similar and and and and and and a group think persists. So yeah. But, you know, I mean, that's just uh and and you know, and I and I think of myself, uh, you know, you mentioned my background, you know, I grew up in Michigan. I came from a conservative family, relatively conservative, country boy, go to the big university, um, and and then I met my wife, who's from Singapore, and we got married, and and uh my first job was in China, and um, you know, and I've spent much of my career working in Asia. You know, imagine what my life would have been like if I'd stayed there, you know. And I think that happens with a lot of families too. You know, like when I look at my own family, I've got siblings that have never lived outside a 30-mile radius of where they are now, and and vacation times every year are spent working on the deck, or you know, I and I think I'm really fortunate that um I was given the opportunity, you know, to make that trip when I was 23 to Southeast Asia, to Singapore initially, and then China. And it just kind of it created this curiosity in me that has burned my whole life. And I and I what I often feel sorry for people that don't share that curiosity, but you know, I also look at relatives and I say, guy, that that that life looks, you know, that simple kind of life, and where that that looks comfortable, you know. But you gotta, you know, you gotta wonder, and I and that's why I'm always trying to encourage people. I know, hey, come visit or go here or there, and because I'm I'm hoping, and I think that's it works the same in an organization. If we can create an environment where we can expose people, and I think as an industry, that's what we're facing now, too, is people, everyone's kind of working in their own silo geographically. You got the US, you got Europe, you got Africa, and you got South America, everybody's kind of working their own silo. And then now we have silos on silos. Oh, you got the CX people over here, you got the employees experienced people over here. Yeah, now what happens when they start working together? Holy smokes! And that's what we're trying to do as an organization. We want people to sit down at the table and talk across disciplines and across companies, you know, like let's talk about AI. You know, how is AI gonna increase productivity in your area? Now, let's talk to the employee experience person, let's talk to the UX person. You know, amazing for now, you know, we're all with our blinders on and our job every day, and now all of a sudden you get to hear those different perspectives. Now let's multiply that. And this is what we're doing with um XM Global with chapters globally. If if you're gonna do a workshop, do it in conjunction with another chapter in another country virtually, where members can work in teams and breakouts and discuss different perspectives in their countries. Because, man, I tell you, it's amazing the differences that exist across countries and region in this world. And if you're never exposed to it, you don't get that curiosity or that explosion that I get every time I travel, where you just shake your head and wonder, like I did the first time I went in the shopping mall, and I'm like, five banks side by side, and then I looked at the branch design and I saw this what had to be a culturally influenced design, you know, that you don't treat people, you know, like going up to a counter and standing there and go is is is very impersonal and it doesn't it doesn't really demonstrate and the ties are always there's a great deal of respect for one another here, you know. Um as an elder, I'm an elder in I get bow, I get I get this subtle, you know, putting of the hands together in a in a small bow from people, and I do it to them too, just be out of respect. It's a very much, you know, and it's a beautiful thing. And I think that's reflected in in how they operate. Um and you know, and to learn that and say, wow, you know, when I first saw it, I go, this is this is this is really cool, super cool. And then to see what really struck me with Bank Cock Bank is they're doing similar things in Vietnam, but only for VIPs. And that made me thinking too, you know, you have cultures where in Vietnam is very much that kind of culture, you know, it's about, yeah, we want to give personalization and luxury, not to everybody, but to VIPs, you know, we wanted to make it a status thing, and and that bothers me, you know. The ties don't seem that way. It's very much here that you know, like when I looked at that branch, it wasn't a VIP thing. It was it was a it was a branch and a shopping mall. And the seating was high-end, it was beautiful, and you know, there were flowers on the table, and it and this is a bank, you know. Um much like you know, much like the waiting area in my doctor's office where you walk in and everybody greets you by name, Sawadi Krap. Um the um the seating is rattan, um, with a color seam on the cushions that's reflected in the wall colors, and the music's fantastic. There's a cappuccino machine there. Um, there's a bowl of their b bananas and infused water. Um, but what I notice, not just there, but also in hospitals, what they do is they want to keep you comfortable, so they keep you in a comfortable waiting area where your needs are taken care of, and then they take you to where they need you to go. You know, they don't put you in a cold room and make you wait, like is typical in the U.S., where you're staring at posters on the wall about syphilis or or or whatever, God knows what, right? You know, but what's be so beautiful there is they get you comfortable, they make you feel comfortable, and they come over, Mr. You know, Mr. Tom or Mr. Thomas. Um, could you please follow me? You know, and they take you in a room and they do a blood draw, or they take you to another room for an ECG, ECG, or they take you the doctors don't leave their offices, they take you into the doctor's office for for the consult. Um, and this is true in hospitals as well as clinics. So it's not just, you know, it's not just one clinic, it's um it it seems to be across the country.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

So sticking with this theme.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

I mean, you And I know we got way off track on D.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

No, we didn't actually, but I mean so you've you've been your professional journey, you know, academia global consulting, experience management, leadership, the first master's degree in customer experience management, and now the XM Global Collaborative. And one of the themes that we've been talking about, and I'd like to double-click on for a minute, is this whole cross-border collaboration, because I think you've articulated pretty freely how um the experience of um uh different cultures and and and different um practices and principles with different countries, for example, have an impact in shaping um how you think about experience management. From your perspective, uh, given this cross-border collaboration um that you're emphasizing, what do you see as some global trends in experience management, either employee or customer or both, that the US uh in particular should be paying attention to from a global perspective?

SPEAKER_02 36:47

Wow. Um well, I think you know, a global trend of trends. Um, I don't know if it's trends so much. Um I think I think there's a global trend to digitalization, you know. Um you know, uh to be able to conduct business in a seamless and transparent way, 24 hours a day from from your phone. And that's a that's a global trend. Um and you know what's kind of funny when you travel internationally and talk to people, they seem to feel that the US is leading the world in NCX. And I think they are in some ways. You know, I think I think um I think they they they they are in some in in many ways, including including digital, and and that that that's probably probably true. Um but where I think the rest of the wor uh world is leading is and and and you know maybe not specific uh countries, is um there's a few a few things. One is the authenticity of the experience and the and the genuine nation nature of the experience. I think the US to me it's like a factory, you know, where experiences has become impersonal, standardized, cost eff efficient for operators. You know, I know when I go to most restaurants to the US and I order salads, it's been poured out of a bag, right? Right. Um, what I learned living in Ecuador and what I've seen in other countries, when I go out to dinner and I look at the plate, I can tell whether the cook loves what they do. You know, there's a lot of love in the food in Ecuador. It's a poor country, um but the people there the love for what they do is seen in the food, you know. And they take the time to do it right. You wait longer, but they take the time to do it right. Where in the US, um it's turned into a factory, you know. And I think it's a reflection of our short-term focus, it's a short of reaching short-term goals, standard. It's about reading it's about reaching profit, it's about reaching financial targets. There's no doubt, you know, because then it's also about trimming your workforce. So that's the other thing. What I see, what I see in other countries like Thailand. And my wife and I see it in the place where we went to breath uh breakfast where they've had staff recently, they've added staff, um, and it and and and the way in which they engage with people in such a genuine and authentic way. Not in the way in the you know, in the US, um, I'm Jamie, I'm gonna be your server today. Um, is everything tasting and I never quite understand this. Is everything tasting okay here? Or whatever that thing about tasting, you know. I never quite understand that question, you know. Rather than saying, what can we, you know, something along the lines, what could we be doing differently to serve you? Well, how can I help you? How can I, you know, but it it's all this, I feel like I'm a a widget on a on a on a on a production line when I quite often in the US, you know. I I don't feel that I I don't feel this genuine concern for me or my needs or why I'm there or or anything else. But what I do see in other parts of the world is is um you know taking the time to be genuine and authentic in what you do, um, and doing it right. Um and and food is just one part of that, but also the service level and how you're you know, how you're you know, um and how people engage with you. And I've seen some bad examples too, you know. I'm oh yeah, you know, I again I won't name the city or the country, but my wife were and I were there for a week and and we felt like again, everywhere we went, we felt like um they were doing us, you know, we went to a restaurant and it was kind of like, what do you want? You know, the waiter, or and they're like, oh, okay, you know, um, and the food was very much the same way. It was like I was lukewarm and uh kind of tasteless and whatever. Um, and we were happy to get out of there. And then we went someplace else. We went to Malta, um, which was fascinating because um, you know, as much as some countries are screaming about immigrants taking jobs, most countries realize that their own people can't fill all the jobs. You know, they don't have the requisite skill sets or people don't want to do the jobs. What's fascinating about Malta is they realize if they're if they're gonna run as a country, they need help from the outside, particularly in service roles. So I would say ever you know, every place we went, from grocery stores to restaurants, all retail spaces were all manned by people who um were from different countries. I I won't call them foreigners because they're not foreigners, you know. They were from India, they were from Ethiopia, they were from the Philippines. Um, but what was clear, you know, they created a these or whoever they work for created a culture where the personalities of these people really came through in a really genuine way, um, and and created incredible experiences. So I'm afraid what's gonna happen in the US with digitalization and and more and more AI and robots is a focus going to be on efficiency and cost reduction, and the consumer's gonna suffer because of it. Yeah, you know, they're taking the human factor out. But what I'm seeing here elsewhere is they're using technology to enhance the experience. So they can take time with you, you know, to be genuine and authentic. It's not that, you know, their focus isn't on cost cutting, and this is what I think we've been preaching. But in the US, they're you know, I think they're just gonna use it as means to save money. But what I've seen overseas is they're using technology to enhance the experience so they can spend more time with you interpersonally, um, or not feel so rushed, or or maybe, you know, it it's enhancing the experience, it's not taking away from it, which which is what I see in the US.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

So yeah, I agree with you on that. And and one of the themes that I'm seeing a lot of is um particularly over the The last year to two years, a major uptick in private equity acquisitions. They're doing it very quietly, right? Because they don't have to announce anything. But a lot of companies moving off the public markets, going into private. And to your point, what we tend to see as a trend is all about let's throw AI at the problem and let's focus on operational efficiency, which does do certain things like improve the balance sheet. And it does maybe help you hit the numbers for the quarter. But we have to understand too that that environment is very much like house flipping, right? It is get in, you know, invest some capital, the minimum amount that you can, and maximize profitability and then flip the house for a tidy profit. That does not build customer lifetime value. That does not build brand love and affinity.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

Yeah. So if we're talking about ex equals CX, right? How does that flipping affect the psyche of the people that work for that organization? You know, when I was at MSU, I finally got to the point I said, you know, don't be loyal to any company you work for because they're not loyal to you. Always be looking for your next job. And I hate to say that, but I think it's true. You know, you have to, you know, I was trying to protect them because they're doughy-eyed, they're, you know, they're thinking they're gonna work for this company the rest of their lives, but then some private equity firm comes along, and next thing, you know, I had one student, she had been out two years and had three jobs, you know. And it's like, um, so yeah, so you start, you know, we look if you if you break down employee engagement and what it really means in a comprehensive way, you know. How how what is my fit with my job? How fulfilled do I feel in my role? Am I being developed property? Do I like my job? What is my fit with the organization? Do I support the decision making? Are my personal values consistent with those with the organization? And then lastly, you know, intent to stay and and so forth. Well, heck, if you work for a company and you and you know, and and a big part of this, if you think about how those first two things I talked about manifest themselves in your job, those are those are all part of a great organization that spends time with understanding what your goals are and your values. They help you understand how what you do every day impacts the customer and how it's valued. You know, empowerment's part of that, right? And developing that relationship. And at the same time, you know, they're educating you on the vision and the mission of the organization and their long-term focus and why why what you're doing is really meaningful. I mean, nobody wants to roll out of bed every morning thinking, oh, I'm gonna make another widget today and make some money. No, they want, you know, I think people in general want to feel they're making a difference in the world, that they're helping people. But if you work for an organization, and it's just about reaching financial targets without, you know, and I think you may have alluded to this previously, you know, the best organizations are able to tie customer outcomes with financial outcomes and understand and employee outcomes, right? They understand how employee outcomes um are tied to customer outcomes and financial outcomes in hand and hand. Um but if all you do is like, oh, yeah, in order to meet our next budget, we're gonna have to slash a thousand jobs, and that's a common. And if you're left dealing with that, you know, if you're even if you're not cut, so you're not one of you're one of the lucky, you're one of the lucky ones that were left. So to speak, though. You got the baggage, you know, stress level goes up, workload goes, no, you know and survival guilt. It's real. So so yeah, and and and you're you're you're gonna now all of a sudden care about your job and your employer and be able to deliver a uh off a genuine and authentic experience. Give me a break. So, you know, that's why companies like that are privately held, family-owned, and you know, you're gonna hear a recurring theme with me around food and hospitality, but look at Chick-fil-A. You know, say what you will about the value, you know, the values of the owner. But I mean, if you look at their dedication to the customer and how they choose franchisees and how they develop a culture and how they develop their people, and I had their CMO on a podcast a few years ago, or their former CMO, he said they never could have done that if they were a publicly traded company. Look at In N Out, look at In N Out, and they're calculated growth, family-owned company. They've made four menu changes since their founding, it must be in the 50s, early 60s. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

Four menu changes. And there's always a line out the door in every single location.

SPEAKER_02 49:18

The focus is we do, you know, we keep it simple and we do it well, right? And then we pull it up, put it all on full display for everybody to see. I love driving through the drive-thru and in and out that where I can look and watch people doing their work. And you know, and they they and it's it's you know, hand-cut fries, a burger, you know, I'd like mine animal style, cheeseburger, single animal style. But the way they wrap it, they wrap half the burger, they they put it in a, you know, when you go through the drive-thru, they say, Are you eating in your car? Because they want to know, do I need to bag it or put it in a tray? You know, again, you know, so if you're eating in your car, they put it in a tray, and then they position your burger at a 45-degree angle to do what I say, it's smiling at me. My food is looking. Well, you've heard the phrase people eat with their eyes. You know, I was thinking about that today, too. You know, and again, think about most restaurants in the U.S. And yeah, people eat with their eyes, you know, and and it's that way, it's not just with food, it's with everything. So, and you know, when I see the food on the plate and it says, There's a lot of love here, and it is within and out, there's a lot of love that goes into preparing that food. Um, and you know, and it's a reflection of the culture and how they peat their they they treat their people and how they pay their people. I heard somewhere that their unit managers may make an excess of $200,000 a year. And no doubt their their pay is based on sales targets, but sure, but but you know, they've created this culture around quality and um calculated growth where they control the complete supply chain, right? You know, that's right. And um, it's kind of like Trader Joe's is another great example.

SPEAKER_01 51:14

That is a great example.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

Well, I mean, they could blanket this country with Trader Joe's and you wouldn't have enough, but instead people beg for Trader Joe's. Please come to my town so I don't have to drive an hour and a half. And again, it's about, you know, you're gonna do it right. And they've created a culture and the organization where, you know, it's one of those few companies where I get the feeling they hire their customers because when cashiers take the time to comment on what you're buying and tell you how much you're gonna love it, you know you're in a good place because they're in a good place mentally, right? I mean, they're they're having a good time too. It's clear. It's not just a job, it's not, you know, the tech now, you know, you can improve the technology at class at the cash register. And and I you also notice they haven't moved to self-checkout, and there's a reason for that too, because they understand the value of that interpersonal. And and you walk away, you know, and I don't know how you feel, I walk away saying something nice to the cashier every time I'm there because I feel they've made an impression, they've brightened my day.

SPEAKER_01 52:26

Well, and it creates a positive flywheel for you know that kind of cultural interaction too. People enjoy going there and enjoy interacting, and that is a function of leadership, frankly, and how that leader is setting the tone and the pace. And so as we as we get closer towards you know, wrapping our time up here today, you know, uh with so many CX initiatives failing today due to lack of leadership alignment and employee engagement, what counsel do you have for executives to be able to reframe XM really as part of core business strategy and not just a support function?

SPEAKER_02 53:08

Okay. First of all, understand what it truly means to be a customer-centric organization in a comprehensive way. Um make customer satisfaction and value delivery the purpose of your business, not profitability. Make profitability should be what allows you to continue serving the customer. You know, I mean customer experience management and when I when I was designing the degree program at MSU in the first course in the degree, it was like customer experience, you know, the motivation behind customer experience management should be to deliver on your customer-centric vision and mission. You know, it's not a and I I'm not don't too much about this means to an end and ends to a mean thing. Because what's happening now, I think most people are jumping on the CX bandwagon are doing so because they think it should something they should be doing. It's a buzzword, everybody's doing it, we got to be doing CX. So now it's bolted on. But if you're truly a customer, you know, if your goal is to maximize the satisfaction of your customers and make their lives better and make them happier and their and more fulfilling, and and and feel the same way about your employees, you'll do everything at your disposal to do that.

unknown 54:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 54:34

With the understanding that profitability is gonna follow. You know, I mean, Amazon's a pretty good example of that. And I know there's a lot of, you know, I mean, there's a lot of uh arguments against Amazon too, but I think that's the way Jeff Basil started the thinking was, you know. Sure. Um, but it's and I think that's where you gotta be at as an organization. If you want to integrate it as your if it's if it's integrated if it's uh your business philosophy and your operating practice, it's gotta be uh in your DNA, right? I mean it's gotta come naturally. You can't force it on on on people. Um and um you know, the the people that I've talked to that make it work, you know, when you're moving from a product focused, transaction focused, more relationship, and it's helping people to understand how what they've been doing every day fits with this, how it supports that, you know, it's not trying to deprogram and and you know, and I think this is this this is where everybody jumped in on the NPS train for years and years where where it faltered. You know, I think it's important you gotta meet people in sales where they are in HR and whatever, and say, you know, you guys do really, really great things. Did did you realize what you're doing is customer-centric? Did you realize what you're doing advances our customer goals in this way? You know, and I think that's what you have to do. It's kind of like reverse engineering it, where you know, it's it's not easy for a business to start out over and be customer-centric all of a sudden. Um, but I think most people, most meaningful, you know, most people um like the idea of working for a customer-centric organization, you know.

SPEAKER_01 56:29

I tend to agree with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:32

And and educating people on what that means and what it's gonna mean day to day and how it's gonna make their work more meaningful. Um, and then rather than totally re-engineering the whole firm and be able to say, you know, you're doing some incredible things that can be considered customer-centric. Um, let's build on those, you know, and at the same time figure out how we're gonna work together. And I think, you know, to me, the customer journey, and I know there's a lot of different journeys, and you know, let's say, you know, helping people in an organization to understand who their customers are. I and this is where I think personas have value. I think personas have some of the greatest value in educating employees on who they're there to serve. And then to me, journeys are a great way to show people where what they're doing impacts the customer. You know, say, did you know what you're doing here impacts here and here. This is a shared experience for all of us. You know, we're all here on this, we're all here to work together to make this work for our customers.

SPEAKER_01 57:39

Yeah. And the reality is most people don't know how what they do impacts the customer.

SPEAKER_02 57:44

No, no, they don't because the their leadership hasn't made it a priority, and the KPIs on which they're evaluated hasn't haven't made it a priority.

SPEAKER_00 57:54

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 57:55

You know, and I know we don't have tons of time to talk, but I mean, this is why you need to get things like employee engagement out of HR and you need to make it a responsibility of management. You know, if if I told you that 40% of your performance evaluation is based on employee engagement scores, you're like, what? What's that? What's a floor engagement, right? Right all of a sudden, now I've got your attention, you know, and it's not hard to explain to people what employee engagement is and why it's important, how it's reflected in their outcomes and their responsibility as a leader. You know, I mean, I I don't feel disengaged from my work because of H how HR treats me. It's because of how my boss treats me, right? Yeah, well, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 58:42

And let's also, and I make this point in my class as well, and and this is I don't want to turn into an HR bashing session here, Tom.

SPEAKER_02 58:52

They got a role.

SPEAKER_01 58:53

They do, but their primary role, their primary role is not the development of the people, it is the protection of the organization and its interests. Secondarily, is hiring and developing and promoting and training, and that's secondary. So it's Tom, as we as we Yeah, go ahead. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 59:14

Yeah, but it's in partnership with people across the organization, right? It should be, and that's a key thing.

SPEAKER_01 59:20

It should be, yeah. So, Tom, what's next for the XM Global Collaborative?

SPEAKER_02 59:24

Oh man. Um, we'll be coming up on our with our our annual um um our first anniversary, the first week of of March. Um, we have 12 chapters um globally stretching from San Francisco, where you're chapter president all the way to Perth, Australia.

SPEAKER_01 59:47

Yes, you're now looking, uh ladies and gentlemen, at the new chapter president for the XM Global Collaborative for the Bay Area. Uh, Tom is extremely influential.

SPEAKER_02 59:57

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think we have a pretty compelling vision. You know, the the biggest challenge is to get people um, to get them out of their comfort zone, to understand, you know, what one thing I hear a lot in in our industry is how alone people feel, you know. Um they're they're one or two or few people inexperienced management in the organization. Um, you know, we want we want people to feel they're supported and they're not alone. And they're not just supported by people in a in a local chapter operation, but they're supported globally. Um you know, our our emphasis as an organization is twofold. It's virtually, you know, and how can we reach people and support them virtually through virtual programs? Um, you know, we have an online mentorship program, we have an online repository and and community forum and so forth. Um, but it's also um creating these communities on the local level where people can build relationships and support one another. And then in collaboration, and that's the R thing, the other thing that's really unique about us is hands-on learning and learning um across different disciplines, which is why you'll see it's not CX collaborative because those people disciplines tend to work in silos, so it includes people from divergent disciplines across the XM sp spectrum. Um but you know, working to help them to collaborate across cultures and and borders and which which is where um you know working with chapters on collaborative events is a is a great great way uh creating opportunities for chapters to collaborate on events uh across borders is is really um fortuitous. And um and we have plans, we have plans to sometime this year um to launch an academy, an online academy um that spans five categories of core competencies and sixteen subcompetencies, so a total of um five certificates and um across 16 different subcompetencies um that can be taken at the chapter level or taken individually, asynchronously, online using a learning management system. So our focus is very much on continuous improvement. We we believe things change every day. Um, but more importantly, you know, similar to the approach at MSU, we need to be, you know, broad in terms of our understanding of the competencies that are necessary to be effective in our industry and really deep in the skills. Because the sad reality is we have more experts now and more consultants we've ever had before, and we're failing miserably as an industry. Um customer experience index scores um have been on the decline the past four years, including a 20% decline last year. And for people that don't know what that means, what it means is customer perceptions of the quality of experiences have been declining for four consecutive years.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:22

So 20% though, that's pretty massive. I hadn't heard that stat before.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:27

Yeah, significant drop. So um believable. We have a lot of work to do, you know, and it comes with humility and a lot of hard work.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:35

Um, I'm not a yeah, so well, and one of the trends that I've seen, you know, I go back six, seven years ago, and and I so so just before we wrap up here, just to put it in perspective, you know, I I had a um associate at a company that I worked with, and he got poached by a bank to be their chief customer experience officer. And um and he went over there and they were paying him $775,000 base salary uh plus about a million bucks a year on top of that in stock and equity grants. And um, he was there for two years. Uh, he was very miserable, he said. And um, and then they just eliminated his job, and they've never put backfilled it. And I've seen that trend where about you know, six, seven, eight years ago the CXO was hot, hot, hot. And now that function is just getting absorbed into broader, more general marketing functions or analytics functions. And the same thing is happening with to some extent EX practices, but it's almost just defaulted to let's just do an annual engagement survey and hope to God that the scores this year are better than they were last year, right? I mean, but that's not being proactive or forward thinking or shaping the experiences that employees and customers are going to have going forward. And I think that's a big miss.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:02

Yeah, it's it's a big miss, but you know, I mean, at the same time, um, and this is why we created the master's degree at M MSU, you know, a lot of those people were ill-prepared to uh for the roles that they were they were trying to fill. You know, um very few people had the requisite skill sets, you know, they came from sales or they came from marketing, they came from advertising, they learned on the job, they learned by going, you know, watching webinars or going to conferences. Um and you know, the the goal really of the master's program was to create tomorrow's CXOs by by developing the comprehensive set of skills. You know, I mean at the same time, and no, you know, no ill will towards the or towards the survey companies, but I think a lot of um people were convinced by salespeople that if they bought a software system. You know, that it was going to solve all their problems. You know, um it called it a customer experience management system, which it's not. It's a it's a database. You know, it's it's a means of collecting data and analyzing it, but that's a very small part of the equation. And I did we did a study last year and we identified the top 10 reasons why um experience management initiatives fail. And it wasn't from a lack of journey maps or surveys. Five of the ten reasons fell under organizational factors, short-term focus, um, um um inability to change, um, lack of um strategy or vision and so forth. Um, and two, so now we're at five, now we're at seven, two had to do with employee experience and empowerment. Lo and behold, you know, areas that are rarely discussed in the CX world, and then three in between, you know, that had to do with data or whatever. And you know, if you're giving, if you consider CX to be your call center, if you consider CX to be your survey, you know, you know, your you're you're you're missing the the whole point, you know. I mean, there's a reason why we call it, and I think we were MSU was were some of the first to put M on it. We wanted to make CX a managed process, you know. Um, and um and uh anyways. As it should be, as it should be as it should be as it should be.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:38

But yeah, so the as we as we land the plane here, Tom. So you know, my signature wrap-up here is the the two things, right? Uh, which is basically uh uh an extension of like a stop, start and continue. So if you had one piece of advice for leaders to start doing tomorrow to improve their experience management programs, what the what would that be? And one piece of advice to stop doing to improve, what would that be?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:06

Oh man, I should have read my my prep notes a little closer. Um I'm gonna come back, you know, I'm I'm gonna so the first thing, I'm gonna come back to the same mantra that I've I've I've been um that that I've been hitting on is understand what it truly means to be a customer-centric organization and what that means in its entirety and detail um across the organization. I can't stress it enough. Um very few leaders want want to engage in that discussion because I think you'll find that your failures um you know, and that includes understanding the importance of employee experience and engagement. It it includes um it it includes uh um spending more money on qualitative research rather than s trying to operate alone on on um uh on on NPS and and and certain and simple survey data. You know, so uh that that's my recommendation because I think you know I think what companies often do is they jump into they look at CX maturity and maturity, you know, that's more strategic and it doesn't always it doesn't always unbundle all all the the the aspects of what it mean customer centricity means and how um yeah I think you know mo I think most leaders in in some way, shape, or form of oversimplified what it is that we do. And it's extremely complex, but it doesn't have to be if you understand it, you know, that you you know it's understanding um the nuances and facets of what it means to be a customer-centric organization, it's a lot, but I think it's a great place to start. And if you haven't started there, then everything else downstream is is irrelevant and it's not gonna stick. So that's the thing I'm recommending they do. What do they stop doing? Yeah, can they stop talking about NPS? Can we stop talking about NPS? I mean, MPS is literally when you look at, and you know, this as a researcher, an academic researcher, when you look at the the path of antecedents, antecedents being the things that we measure, um the things that when we look at human behavior, whether it's employee psychology or human psychology, the willingness to recommend, and this is just a promise to do something. How many how many promises do customers and you know employees and customers not follow through on that they say they're gonna do? So so many businessmen are using huge decisions on NPS scores, um and uh but not understanding all of the all of the underlying psychological processes and things they could be measuring that finally result in that. You know, why is a bit you know, and I guess it gets back to the first question. Why is an industry aren't we talking more about desired emotional states, both employee and customer? I mean, most everything we do every day, every you know, whether it's work or things decisions we make as consumers is to change, not to check a cognitive box off a thing, but to change our emotional states. Why aren't we talking more about that understanding and designing for emotional states and measuring for emotional states? Why aren't we talking more about trust and and its relationship and moderating, um, and you know what moderation and mediation and but you know, and mediating the relationship between um customer satisfaction and loyalty, you know. Um, there's we have so much work to do as an industry to help people who work in this field on a day-to-day basis to better understand how the human mind works, um, both in terms of how they evaluate their jobs and what they want to get out of it. Um, you know, why aren't we using the tools? Um, you know, why and why aren't we using the tools we use to understand customers to better understand our employees? You know, we went through a horrendous the the the healthcare system went through horrendous their people went through hell during COVID. Um but they weren't willing to spend the money on on qualitative research to really understand their people and what they went through and help them and better meet their needs in the the future. You know, we should be creating empathy maps and jobs, you know, and using frameworks we use and and CX for EX as well. You know, why aren't we talking about jobs to be done for employees? Why aren't we talking about empathy maps for employees? You know, why are we still, yeah, this is an earthing people. Why are we, you know, stop putting CX equals or EX equals CX out there as if it's some new thing? You know, we've done tons of research in academia, including my dissertation over 20 years ago on that, you know. Um, so yeah, let's get off NPS, let's stop talking about it, let's start measuring important things, things that actually lead to reflect loyalty and lead to loyalty, and on and creating accountability across the firm for all the factors that are are driving it.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:19

So I know that was a lot, and we're probably interestingly enough. I I mentioned that I interviewed Rob Markey, who's one of the co-creators of the Net Promoter Score uh for my book, and and even he would agree with that. He's it was never intended to be advanced.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:34

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean the the article, I mean, I read Reichel's article when it first came out. You know, I was a doctoral student, and and uh, you know, my research was in services marketing and employees, and and and I thought it made sense. So it was brilliant, you know. I it it was the one thing you should measure because ultimately it reflects someone's trust in their brand, right? But um, but we stopped measuring trust, you know. We wanted to go, you know, and I and again, I I think I mentioned this previously, you know, we we work in a fast food industry, not just in how we deliver experiences, but how we think about them and how we execute on them, um, and how we develop our people. You know, we have we have an um we have globally this addiction with simple, cheap, and easy certificates, and you know, let's get certified, let's be certified. We know we have certification pro those you're a certified expert for life. Just pay your $500 and take a test, and you're an expert, right? You know, and and we're addicted as an industry. I call it a fast food, you know, fast food mentality for development, but we have so far to go as an industry, so so far. Just unbundling the psychological and emotional processes of employees and customers is would be a huge development, um, and measuring for that in a meaningful way. Um, and helping people in our industry to understand the simple, and I know you've mapped this out, to understand the simple connection between employee experience and not getting employee experience confused with engagement. Um, employee experience is a necessary but not but not sufficient condition for employee engagement. There's other there's other variables, but most people in our industry don't know the difference between those two or how you know, so we need to spend more time on, you know, educating people on on how it's actually quite simple, but it's creating accountability, right? There.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:53

Um 100% agreed. Well, that's why I'm so happy to be you know part of the XM Global Collaborative and pushing that agenda forward, which I think is just incredibly important right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:04

We're we're trying. Well, this has to be your longest episode ever, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:08

It is the longest episode. Number one for 2026 is also the longest. So, Tom, as we wrap up here, thank you. Thank first of all, thank you. Um, and thank you for sponsoring my podcast. Uh, I you know, I I'll say thank you, Dr. Tom DeWitt, for actually you know being part of this today, too. How can people best get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:29

Um, LinkedIn. Yeah, LinkedIn. There you go. I'm I I'm at the top of the list. Um, Tom DeWitt. I'm at the top of the list of Tom DeWitt's on LinkedIn. So I'm easy to there you go.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:40

Tom, Tom, number one, Tom here. So there you go. There you go. Well, thank you so much for being on. Thank you for staying up so late with us. Uh appreciate everybody for watching or listening, and we'll see you next time. Uh, this is James Killian signing off until next episode. Thanks, everybody.