The Customer-Driven Leader (Episode #8) ~ Tony Loyd

James welcomes Tony Loyd to the Customer-Driven Leader Podcast. Tony is an author, speaker, and executive coach who helps business leaders build endurance in a world of constant change. A former Fortune 500 executive with companies like John Deere, Diversey, Medtronic, and Buffalo Wild Wings, he has led teams through uncertainty and understands the strain leaders feel when expectations rise and change is constant. Over time, he saw that most leaders weren’t failing. They were fatigued.

Tony’s perspective is shaped by his own endurance journey. After cancer surgery reduced his lung capacity by 25 percent, he learned how to perform, recover, and keep going with less. That experience reshaped how he understands leadership.
He developed the Endurance Leadership Framework, a practical, research-backed approach that teaches leaders to regulate emotion, clarify purpose, adapt to change, connect with others, and maintain momentum. As the founder of Culture Shift Advisors and a TEDx speaker, Tony helps leaders build cultures that stay calm, clear, and aligned so they can make confident decisions and last. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hey, good morning, everybody. Welcome to the Customer Driven Leader Podcast, where we explore the critical impact that leaders have in creating, winning, and sustaining cultures that positively impact customer experiences. I'm your host, Dr. James Killian. Thanks for being with us, and thank you to the XM Global Collaborative for sponsoring this event. I'm super excited to have my next guest on. I'm welcoming my good friend and colleague, uh Tony Lloyd. Tony is a master of just about everything you can imagine. He is an author, he is a keynote speaker, he's uh an executive coach who helps business leaders build in this crazy time. And he's a former Fortune 500 executive with brands you may have heard of, like John Deere, Divercy, Medtronic, and Buffalo Wild Wings. And I've known him for a pretty long time, and he's a pretty great guy. And I'm happy to say that I'm actually getting the privilege of collaborating a bit with Tony on his next project. Uh, over his experiences over his long career, he's noticed that most leaders out there aren't actually failing. It's just that they're exhausted. And so he's now developed what he calls an endurance leadership framework. And this framework teaches leaders to regulate emotion, clarify purpose, adapt to change, connect with others, and maintain momentum. And we're gonna talk about that here in a few minutes uh in a lot more detail. But first of all, Tony, great to see you. Welcome to the show. Good morning.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Good morning. Now we we have a deal here. I'm not gonna tell the stories I know about you if you won't tell the stories you know about me, right? That we have a deal here.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

I can neither confirm nor deny that I can move forward out with the express uh permission from the Secretary of the United States of America. Thank you. So, Tony, we we are gonna get into the endurance uh leadership framework here in a bit because um, you know, I'm again I'm humbled that um, you know, I get the opportunity to work with you a bit on this, and so I'm really excited to start to get the message out uh about what this is and and what the advantages of the framework are. But as you know, I I have uh certain bookends on the front and back. So I start and finish every show the same way. And so I'll start the same way I ask every guest this question. A leader, team, or company is customer driven when what? Can you please finish that sentence?

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Yeah, um, I'll tell a story. Is that okay? Please, indeed. Yeah, so I I was in a meeting at John Deere, and there was another business leader there, a guy named Tony Worthington, and uh greatly admire Tony Worthington. If he's out there listening, shout out to Tony. He's he's just a fantastic person, uh, great leader, very smart, taught me a lot of things. But we were both in a meeting one time, and somebody would go, Well, it's like Tony said, I mean, I mean Tony Worthington, and then you know, somebody goes, uh it's like Tony said, Oh, I meant Tony Lloyd, right? So it got kind of confusing. And finally, Tony Worthington kind of sitting back in his chair and he goes, Well, he's just the smart Tony. And I go, Well, I I don't know that I'd be referring to myself that way. He goes, Well, here's the thing, you can be as smart as you want, but if you aren't serving the customer, you're not spit. It's like, okay. That was kind of a kind of a backhanded compliment in a way, right? But that's how focused he was on serving the customer, right? He every thought he had, every question he asked, every, you know, every meeting he was in, it was not what's good for me, not what's good for my career, not what, you know, it's what's good for the customer because they're the ones writing the check for us, right? Um, let me let me give you though kind of a negative example, and I think this is interesting. Um there was a company who really thought they were customer focused, and what was happening was the sales reps were going out and they were meeting with customers, and customers would go, you know, like this was a uh company you and I both have have worked with, and uh the customer would go, you know, I like your toilet bowl cleaner, but I kind of wish it came in an orange, right? In an orange uh scent. And so the um, you know, the the salespeople would go back and talk to the RD people who would talk to the people in the lab, and then next thing you know, we had an orange scented toilet bowl cleaner because one customer mentioned it. And then somebody else goes, Well, you know, I kind of like that orange scented, but I I wish it removed uh lime better from the toilet. We have a lot of lime deposits. So now you've got the orange toilet bowl cleaner with lime, uh, lime prevention, right? And next thing you know, we've got a warehouse full of skews that we can't move because one customer or two customers had asked for this thing. And so there's a cut there's a case where a company and and the employees, they were really trying to be customer focused, but they weren't being process driven. Right? So they were they were customer focused but not process driven. That doesn't work. Um and and so just because you're totally focused on the customer doesn't mean you're serving the customer. And so I know that you're all about customer service, you're you're all about you know keeping the customer at the center. But if you're not doing good things for your company at the same time, your company's not going to be around to serve those customers. So part of being customer focused is also understanding what's the impact on the total operating system that we live in so that we can continue to exceed the expectations of our customers. So so that you know, those are sort of a a positive and a negative example of um of companies that that were really trying hard to focus on the customer.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Yeah. I I love that. And that actually knocks out the second question, which was can you give me a good example of a bad example or a story that's kind of shaped the way that you think, right? Yeah. And um I I think that's really important what you're saying here, because you know, I thought uh it's a maybe a little bit cliche, but I thought, you know, Howard Schultz's approach of having the two empty chairs at the table, and if it's not good for the customer and good for the partner, which is what they call employees at Starbucks, um, then it needed to be revisited. And, you know, again, maybe a little bit hyperbole there, but I I do think that it gets at a central concept, which is you cannot create great customer experiences if you're also not creating great opportunities for employee experiences. And I know that's something that, you know, as a learning officer, as a coach, as somebody who's, you know, been you know in charge of developing all these people with all these great brands. I'm sure you've had your fair share of understanding the connectivity between, you know, the leader creates the culture that allows employees to thrive, and that then creates the opportunities for them to impact customers.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

I think you just gave the entire endurance leadership pitch right there.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

That was well, I mean, let's actually get into that, right? I mean, so like um and and by the way, uh everybody, I totally downplayed Tony's bio. I mean, he's just been like, look this guy up, he's done it all. I mean, uh TEDx, I mean, uh, you know, you formed Culture Shift Advisors along the way, uh, really integrating a lot of the key learnings that you've had over your really exceptional career. And um the argument being, you know, as you and I talked in the beginning, basically, you know, leaders are just are they're exhausted today. And we all feel it, the stress and pressure, the short-term results, push. And um, and I I think when we first started talking, you had said something to the effect of, well, you know, it used to be um, you know, leaders were always under pressure, and then, you know, they they'd end up with some some trial and they get knocked down and then they get back up, dust themselves off, catch their breath, and then get back to work. And now, before they can even get back up, they're kicked in the kneecap and you know, hit on the back of the head and punched in the gut all at the same time. Um, and yeah, it's just impossible to to get a toehold. So you've been arguing that resilience isn't really enough, that leaders need endurance. And so maybe endurance toward what? Uh say more about that.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

That's that's a good question. So um the first thing I'll say is the reason resilience isn't enough is this that resilience is about bouncing back, right? So you you know, you're coming along, you get a blow, it sets you back a second, and then, you know, for a lot of people, there's like this uh post-traumatic growth, right? If we can incorporate in all the lessons learned and what we, you know, and sort of keep an open positive outlook during during a big trial, then we we can actually have not just post-traumatic distress, but we can have post-traumatic growth. And there is no shortage of trauma right now. I I'm telling you, James, you know that I've been out, I've been having a cup of coffee with a hundred different business leaders, just you know, trial balloon floating this idea about endurance. And I've been asking people, you know, tell me what's happening right now. And, you know, we've got leaders who will say, uh, you know, well, uh rapid change is slowing down our execution, and what, you know, like all the things that you would say in a shareholder meeting. So it's coached very well and it sounds like it's packaged. Uh, but when I probe behind that kind of stuff a little bit, I go, okay, what's it sound like in the hallway? Uh one leader said, if you're standing in my hallway, you're gonna hear, hold on a sec, wait a minute. We gotta we gotta rethink that. Let me circle back with you. We're you know, the thing I told you on Monday, it's no longer right. We now on Wednesday, we now have to readjust and you know, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Um, and one business leader said to me, She goes, I don't even know what's true today. And and I'm like, Well, can you say more about that? And she's like, Well, are are the tariffs on? Are the tariffs off? Um, do I need to move my factory out of China if I move it into Vietnam? Is that going to, you know, are they also going to get big ter I I don't even know what's true today. Like, there's so much chaos, so much coming at us.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Yeah. Side note on that, Tony. I'm really glad that World War III didn't happen last night and we were able to actually do this podcast today.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Well, yeah, I mean, you know, it's the little things in life. Always look on the bright side of life, right, Jim?

SPEAKER_00 11:08

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

So, you know, I mean, what we're seeing is economic disruption. Um, you know, I I don't know when was the last time you uh filled up your car with gas, uh, or maybe you're uh all electric, right? So uh yesterday I filled it up and it was outrageous. Yeah. Um, and I don't know when the last time was that you looked at your uh your um investments, but like, you know, it's going the other way, right? The price of gas is going this way, and investments are going the other way, right? And so businesses, you know, our suppliers are calling us up. I had one person say, I'm sorry, this this answer is a little long, but we got all the time. Trying to illustrate here a little bit. So one person said we had to have a price increase because our price, our costs had gone up. And so we, you know, went out and started sort of pushing that through. And so our supplier has increased their price, and you understand you have other suppliers too. So, gosh, we're really sorry, but we're gonna have to have to ask for more. And that's a hard conversation to have. And they get all the way to the end of that, and like they're almost with their last sort of like their B level, C level customers, and a different supplier for a different reason jacked up their price and said, We can't honor that price anymore. And now they've got to circle back and do that again. Yeah, and so you know, it it's it's like knockback, knockback, knockback, knockback, knockback. There is no time for um for us to have resilience when the challenges are constant. So um, so what you now have to do is you have to endure. That's that's the thing that uh Jen and I, and you've been working with us. That's the thing that we came up with. It's like you have to learn how to be unshakable in a world that feels unstable. And that is a that's a skill that is uh, you know, that's something you can learn, that's something you can reinforce. Uh, but the root of this word endure is really about tolerance. It's about tolerating. How do you tolerate um, you know, AI and uh technology disruptions? How do you tolerate um, you know, the talent pipeline uh leaking out? How do you toler how do you tolerate all that? You have to you have to find a way to to build some internal endurance and build some structural endurance in order to be able to to to endure those kinds of disruptions.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Yeah. And and this concept came out of uh to some extent your experience as an endurance athlete. Uh can you talk more about that? Because I'm a big fan of integrating you know lessons from from sportiness into business and vice versa. Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Yeah. So I'm uh I'm a pretty good runner. Um I have been three times invited to the uh age group world championship races. Uh the next one is going to be in Cape Town on May 24th. Um, so I've been uh you know, I've been training for marathons for a long time. I've been running marathons, I've done a few ultra marathons. Um, and and and so there are so many parallels between being an endurance athlete and being a business leader. You know, there's the concept of recovery time that, you know, if you if you're sprinting from sprint to sprint and you're always training hard, something's going to break. Yeah. Um, and and so just like your body, you know, your ankle is gonna start saying, um, hey, you know, down here, pay attention a little bit. You know, somebody in your organization is going to start showing pain. They're going to start showing the fatigue. And that fatigue is going to show up in different ways, and we can talk about that. But, you know, if you don't find that rhythm of rest and recovery, that's one of the examples that we have within the framework. If you don't find that rhythm of rest and recovery, then you're never going to last. You you can you can have a heck of a quarter. Uh, but you know, I mean, you and I have both talked about this before, that the goal is sustainable, profitable growth. Sustainable, profitable growth. If if you're growing and profitable, but it's not sustainable, that doesn't work. If you're sustainable and profitable, but you're not growing, nobody's gonna want that because they want their investments to grow, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So sustainable, profitable growth. You have to be able to balance all three of those. And so, yeah, part of that it's it's an inside job first, just like being a marathon or just by like being, you know, I mean, you're an athlete, you're a triathlete, you're you're all those things. And so you know what that's like. That the the race starts within.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Yeah, yeah, it it does. And and and um, and you know, I think about like we you know, we as athletes, we talk about like zones, right? Like zone one, two, zone three, zone four, zone five. Zone five is basically you're sprinting for your life because a lion is running after you. Zone one is you're warming up, right? And um you can't show up on a race day and expect to top out your zones if you haven't been creating the daily habits of showing up routinely, consistently, and performing at a level that conditions your body to be able to handle the more extreme scenario of actually race pace is what we refer to. And I I I see that translate into business a lot. You know, you see all the burnout, you see people who are um, you know, a tail as old as time, right? Oh, that person's a really great individual contributor. They have to be made into the manager and they know nothing about managing, and they haven't been prepared, and they haven't been coached, and they haven't, you know, been mentored, and they're just not ready for it. And so they go full bore burning the candles at both end, and then they're toast in about 90 days, right? Right. So um i if you don't mind because you had it on your bio too, because I I I do think it it really says something about you, Tony. You know, you you you've recently gone through some some health scares, and and and that's really reframed how you're approaching, I think, even the endurance leadership framework. Are are you willing to say a little bit about that? Yeah, I'd be I'd be happy to.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Um as I'm as I'm having this conversation with you, I'm sitting in my apartment, and um if I am just through the wall right behind me, um, I was standing there on April 25th, uh April 29th, 2025. And the reason the memory is so clear is because um I was moving into this apartment. And the reason I was moving into an apartment was because I was going through a divorce. And so, you know, for anyone who's been there, um it was the worst day of my life. Uh, you know, I felt hollow, you know, that feeling like like your chest is hollow, like there's nothing in there. Yeah, um, I was haunted, I was, you know, I was horrified, right? So all those things were happening at the same time. Oh, there's three H's, there you go. So I'm there feeling that, and it's like the worst day of my life. And then uh I get a ding on my phone, so my phone goes off, and I walk over and pick it up, and I well actually reach in my back pocket and I take it out, and it says, check my chart. Well, my chart is um the the portal that my doctor sends messages through. And so I'm like, Well, what now? So I open it up, and the first words I see are pulmonary malignancy. I had lung cancer, and it was found accidentally through a a scan for something different, and they found this pulmonary malignancy. So, you know, I wouldn't say this question came fully formed in my mind in this moment, but it was definitely there and it was starting to form. Uh, and the question is, how do you endure when the bottom drops out? And that really, you know, honestly, James, you you mentioned all the things I did. I was Fortune 500 executive. I had a podcast called Social Entrepreneur, I sold a best-selling book, you know, all that kind of stuff. But I was honestly, at that moment, I was on what I would call fade to black. You know, like I'm backing out of all my obligations, I'm sort of stepping back, I'm trying to, you know, like let's just do less. I I'm old and and and I've got enough money, and I don't need to keep doing all this stuff. Let's just stop, you know. And um, and it sort of it lida fired me. But you know, a better analogy, I told this story to somebody else, and and she said, you know how you we used to get ketchup bottles and they were made of glass. And so when you were trying to get that last little bit of the ketchup, or if you're in the UK, maybe your brown sauce or something, right? You're trying to get the last of that ketchup out. What did you do? Well, you you right, you hit the bottom of the ketchup bottle, and then the last little bit came out. Well, the universe gave me a big spank, you know. And so, like, this is what has come out for me. This this concept about you know, my friends, my friends are still, many of them are still in Fortune 500 companies. A lot of them are struggling with this um uh constant churn of chaotic change. And so, how do you endure in the middle of this constant churn of chaotic change? And so that became sort of a theme for me. Now, uh last September I had 25% of my lungs removed. I am currently in training for the age group world championship race in Cape Town, so I'm on this sort of cancer to Cape Town uh arc right now. And um, so this isn't theoretical to me. Like I am living endurance. That is, that is the thing that I am building in every cell of my body. And so, how do you keep yourself, you know, how do you keep yourself calm? How do you clarify your values? How do you, how do you, um, you know, be um change uh enabled. How do you shift when things shift? How do you uh how do you connect with your community? And then how do you build that rhythm of rest and recovery into your life? Those those became the framework that that we're we're now sharing.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

Yeah. Thanks for that addition. And I'm really glad that by the way that you told the the story about um how you received your diagnosis because even though we talk about uh being customer driven or customer centric in my vernacular here, patient centricity uh also falls it's synonymous, right? And I think, you know, that's a really great example of like the worst possible patient experience that you can ever imagine, right? I mean, talk about no bedside manner at all. I mean that that's horrific, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Yeah. I got cancer by text, dude.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Cancer by text, unreal. So um so in in thinking about like um you know kind of um how the work that I do with customer driven leadership intersects a bit with uh with endurance leadership. So under under my um research we show that you know under stress and this is something that that Bob Hogan of Hogan Assessment Systems was was really big on was the the potential for people to derail when under stress. So um you know my research shows that leaders who you know maybe operating at a at a desirable level when it comes to customer focus and employee focus when under stress or duress in particular, they will regress backwards into undesirable territory or customer derailing territory. So where where would endurance help leaders with dealing with that and and say more about that.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Yeah well first of all let me just admire your model for a second right can we do that can we just go thanks I'll let you know I get it. I really get it and and and what I find is that there are many thought leaders today who are all sort of focused on the same thing but they're approaching it at different angles. So you're approaching it from the customer experience and the almost customer obsession like how do we really make that customer experience something desirable and if you want more more stories of harrowing customer experience trust me I have several but um I also think about that internal experience in an organization and you've been in some of these workshops where we've done this probably hundreds of times I have um done this exercise with thousands of thousands of leaders and and what I've done is I said okay describe the worst boss you ever had and people have no problem doing it right I know that guy I know oh yeah yeah I'm working for him right now I can tell you a thing or two right um but they're reactive right they're um they're unclear in their direction they are um inflexible a lot of times um you know like my way or the highway and it turns out that my way is the highway the well-worn highway I'm not flexible to listen to other things um they're often disconnected or isolated they isolate their team uh and they just they run on empty all the time they want you to run on empty I mean there's nothing worse than the person who's constantly praising the team member who's sending emails at two o'clock in the morning and then coming in at five because they're just they're they're setting expectations reinforcements and rewards around total annihilation right um and then when we say tell me about the the best boss you ever had you know they're they're they're they bring a calming presence into the room right they they help me to understand how my work connects to the larger picture and to things that are of value to the organization and even to my own values right um they are adaptive they can find new ways the you know um a friend of mine always says hold tight to the vision but let the form be flexible and I think that is just such good advice like I I I have to keep that form flexible I love that I'm standing that yeah TM but it but they're connected and you know like the worst boss often is hoarding talent a connected boss is sharing talent through the organization bragging about their people throughout the organization connecting you to resources they're not jealous they're not waiting right um and then then they're consistent over time you can count on them right that but here's what I realized I have been both of those bosses and sometimes on the same day right and and and I because you're showing up as your best self and sometimes you're showing up as your worst self and I I have a saying that I've been saying a lot and when I say it people often go yeah and it's not you're not failing you're fatigued. And as soon as I say it people go yep that's it that's it. So I think if you're showing up as your worst self as an individual now you're showing up as your worst self for your team you're showing up as your worst self for your customers you're showing up as your worst self at home etc um so yeah you're not failing you're fatigued and and so that fatigue can drive negative customer experiences. And so that's what we're really trying to address with my model. But what I was going to say is you know you have a particular viewpoint that you're dealing with this problem. There's there were some people uh published an article in Harvard Business review that said you know what the problem is the problem is fear because fear is causing managers to pull back. It's causing them to delay decisions. It's got you know and I went you're right yeah that is that is definitely something that's happening. Just because we landed on endurance and and sort of dealing with the fatigue in organizations and learning how to endure doesn't mean that other people don't have really amazing models that should be honored and upheld and and shown off. So you know I I think these two things it it's like saying are you a fast runner are you left-handed?

SPEAKER_00 28:48

Both can be true right yes yeah I I think that's right there's there's a lot of opportunities to harmonize because I do think it's it's it's taking different viewpoints of of consistent problems that we're seeing out there for sure. Yep yeah so um I uh I see that we have a a couple of questions from the audience here let me pull these out here so so uh how do we position effective experience management as a dominant operating philosophy for leaders who prioritize sustainable profitable growth wow like Mike dropped right there's a big question yeah that is a question okay so so say the first part though again so I've got it in the chat here if you need to pull it up too how do we position effective experience management as a dominant operating philosophy for leaders who prioritize sustainable profitable growth.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

Yeah yeah you know um effective experience management I'm gonna let you take that first and then I might weigh in with something if I have anything to add.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Well I think experience management is basically if you look at um what are the gaps between the expectations that employees and customers have that aren't being delivered on, right? I mean we've we've all I mean like that example of you getting a text about your diagnosis, that's a huge experience gap, right? And that is a function of leadership, frankly, because you know that should never have happened that way. There should have been better systems and workflows back to your original point. You can talk about being you know patient centric in that case or customer centric. But if you don't have the right systems tools workflows processes technologies uh collaboration tools these days are really important to enable people to actually take the right steps and deliver that superior experience then you know your competition is going to do it instead. And so I think the leader has to bring that philosophy that framework that operating system if you will um to be able to enable and empower the people to be the extension of whatever that brand is.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Yeah yeah you know I have some insights into healthcare in particular uh Jen worked in a healthcare system for a lot of years we've watched the changes over uh a lot of years one of the things that has happened and and this is almost a cautionary tale here is we have replaced expertise with systems and and here's what I mean by that we have people who are in charge of patient centric care who are they're not social workers they are not physicians they are people who do surveys and and and I'm not saying in every system right there there are some systems that just do a fantastic job of just really focusing on the patient in this particular case in healthcare um but you know here here's a here's a medical insurance kind of you know rock and hard place experience we're going through right now so Jen went to her primary care physician and the primary care physician is in network and said to the primary care physician it's time for my inoculation so I need a flu shot I need uh COVID I need whatever else it is right so they give her her vaccinations she gets a bill for $1500 now I went to CBS to to the local you know pharmacy over here and I got my shots and I never saw a bill they just took care of it all she got a bill for your basic flu and COVID vaccines for $1,500 so she called up the clinic and said look this you know this must be a coding error there must be something wrong and like no no it got rejected by your insurance company and this is the bill so you need to call the insurance company so she calls the insurance company and they go oh your doctor is out of network she goes no he's not here let me pull it up on your website my physician is in network there it is he's been my physician for many years it's the same physician they're still in network it says so on your website yeah but the clinic is not and and here's here's the yeah here's the the just let me for a second here oh my god here's the deal it was part of M Health Fairview but then it became M physicians and like maybe a sign got changed somewhere but we are somehow supposed to intuit that the name that is ever so slightly different than what we have seen and the logo that looks it identical to the logo before that somehow we're supposed to know that the person working for our in-network position is out of network. And so rock meet hard place right and and they're each going no you need to talk to them no you need to talk to them no you need and and in the meantime like she's a busy professional right so that's what happens in these horrible customer service experiences which by the way this is just the point I wanted to make sorry I went a long time to make this one point at the end of every one of those calls they go please stay on the line for our customer satisfaction survey do you have a zero can I hit a zero right you know like like that is not customer centric. And the people by the way the people in the billing office at the clinic and the people at the uh at the entrance company have been so well trained their voices are so pleasant I'm so happy I'm glad to help you with that let me just help you oh that must be hard for you they're well trained individuals in a profoundly sick system.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

And so if you aren't working at that system level all of the individual activities that you do are not going to help the customer so all right I'll stop talking that was that was too much but it's oh my gosh I I'm sure I know for me personally and I'm sure for anybody else who's listening um can empathize because we've all had that exact same freaking experience. And and so I I don't know if it's a professional to say this on a podcast but I'm just gonna shake my head and go dude dude I mean I I feel you that is just like painful yeah and we've all been there every single one of us I you know and I as you know I've just recently had to navigate my mother through the healthcare system to go into assisted living and that's been that's been a real joy let me tell you what you know that or pulling my fingernails out coin toss you know yeah um all right we have another question from the audience how might customer centricity and effective experience management help leaders to endure as opposed to more transactional and short-term driven operating philosophies I love this question because there is so much garbage that comes out in the area of I'm doing air quotes here leadership development um that often has no theoretical basis no expertise you know it might be somebody who I don't know was a copy salesperson and hit their number every year so they decided to write a book about leadership philosophy or I I don't know I but I love you know I talk more about uh about your perspective on this like yeah this is really important because you've done a lot of research uh to support and bolster where you're coming from right yeah so you know one of the one of the things about culture um you know uh to me culture you know the the old saying culture eats strategy for breakfast right so expectations reinforcements rewards alignment around the customer experience and and so just that you know it can't be a program it can't be uh hi I sorry I'm still on right I'm saying hi you want to say you want to pop in and just put your face in there this is Jen hi Jenny here see you later good to see you yeah yeah Jen there's a genius walking out the door right there so now she is yeah she is so yeah so it can't be a program it can't be you know a system it can't be one more bloody form to fill out but that that's what we see a lot we see a lot of this sort of you know it it no wonder that office space is such a cult movie you know have you done that report uh uh we have a new memo have you seen the memo let me give you the memo you know um uh a lot of these systems they create so much burden uh in order to try to be customer centric that often it interferes with the ability to deliver that kind customer centric uh experience the the the the thing is just expectations reinforcements and rewards that's the magic dust that sort of drives the customer experience yeah yeah I I I agree with that uh a hundred percent um you know it it's interesting kind of backtracking a little bit i think about the environment that these leaders are operating in and um you know go going back to you know your your uh really your opening comments about how you know here's what our leaders are hearing in the halls you know that what is the truth I don't know what it is it's going this way it's going that way um you know so but you you mentioned too that you know the the the trade-offs here is that leaders are being forced to make decisions about passing along many of these costs to the customers right now and that's why we're seeing the price of everything go skyrocket right now right yeah what I think will be very interesting is if and when, hopefully when not if uh we see a little more stabilization in some of the you know economic climate um issues tariffs is a really great example right it's a big fat question mark on everybody's head these days um so what happens if that goes away are are these organizations going to lower their prices I think not I think not and so that will be but it will be very interesting to see like are there certain leaders out there who take that big bold move and tear tell their shareholders and their boards you know what yes we did raise our prices and passed on those costs to the customers yes we could keep it at this level and maintain a higher level of profitability but maybe that's not sustainable um to use your words so all right let's let's take a look a look at a little bit of a a lightning round here um so all right ready here we go the answer is 42 but for it's always the right answer Tony uh what's more dangerous a burned out leader or a calm composed leader who's disconnected from customers ooh good question what a good question um I I think you have to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time you know um if you if you so if you've created an an environment right that supports um the employees and the business leaders etc to be able to remain calm to clarify the values to do all those things right and yet it's all a navel gazing experience right it doesn't help the customer that that's so it all has to start with who's writing my check okay that's who I'm paying attention to uh because the customer is where the cash flows from uh so so I think it has to be yes and it has to be it it you know here's here's what I've seen and you've seen this James you've seen it the uh business leader uh uh sales executive who gets uh promoted because she or he gets results and yet they leave bodies in their wake.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

Yep yeah so you can't be uh customer focused truly if you aren't well adjusted internally right i within the organization so it the answer is yes and I think you have to add both.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

Yeah I I I I buy that.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

All right um so next question can a leader be highly enduring and still be customer avoidant good question yes uh I same scenario same scenario uh only the other way right so now you've got somebody who is uh they're not customer focused uh but they're very evolved you know that they walk into the room and everybody goes whoa thank heavens that she's here thank heavens that he's here right that oh man I just need this person to just sort of give me a nice verbal appreciation and they're gonna be specific and and they're really gonna you know wrap me in a lot of support here and I've got the resources I need to do my job. Whoa aren't they wonderful you know but if they're not facing the customer and having those those conversations with the customer and giving them equal love it it it doesn't work. So it's two sides of the same coin.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

Yeah I I agree and that's something I talk about as well is if you if you look at you know the the pecking order that gets established in organizations just through that promotion process right somebody's a good individual contributor they get promoted to the manager they get promoted to middle management they get promoted to VP then they get you know SVP level and now you've taken somebody who at one point in time had the immediate pulse of the customer and you've removed them you know three four five levels and they're relying on data to tell and data data is great you know we need data but they lose the context because you can get Lost in a spreadsheet very easily. You have to, you have to feel the pain. You have to actually feel the emotion that's associated with that customer interaction because your frontline, they're the extension of the brand, you know, and they're gonna model behavior. So right.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

Yeah. Yeah. Did you I I don't know if you want to go to this. There was another question that just came in. I think it's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

Oh, okay. Um, oh gosh. Yeah, let's talk about this. What about mass employee layoffs? Can you continue to be a customer-centric organization when you value profitability over loyalty to your employee? Ooh.

SPEAKER_01 44:40

That sounds like somebody got a little hurt here. You know, I mean, God bless you. If that's you, if you're on the short end of that stick, you know, I get it. Um, you know, here's here's one thing. I I think I think something interesting is is happening right now. You know, given given that AI is coming in, it's automating a lot of things. Um, we have robotics uh building things. You know, I've mentioned this to you before. There's a factory in China that that cranks out 300,000 cars a year and they have no employees. Um it's all robotics and AI, and even the maintenance crew that works on the robotics there, a contract company, don't even work for that company, right? So you know, when you scale that then and you take that to all kinds of organizations, and and and listen, if you think you're if you think AI isn't coming from for your job, you probably don't know what's happening, right? Yeah. Um so there will be a disruption of our society because people get their money from work, they get their, you know, that they depend on that for their housing, for their insurance, for their food, for, you know, like everything is built around work, around jobs. And what do you do when you have a billion-dollar or multi-billion dollar company that the shareholders make all the profit um and there's no custom no uh employees? There are no employees. Now you have you have this pipeline directly from customers, directly to the shareholders, and there's nobody in between. So that is going to shake our entire uh uh ecosystem of democracy, of uh, you know, uh of of capitalism. So this is going to be a big question. The the the how am I gonna say this? Um so I can both empathize with the tremendous pressure that executives are under. I've been there, I've been in those board meetings, I know what it's like to have activist shareholders say, look, you aren't maximizing profitability. It is your fiduciary responsibility. If you don't, we can take you out and put somebody else in your place. So I'm not saying that that kind of pressure you should say, oh, well, you're right, right? I'm also empathetic to the fact that even though we often say people focus on, you know, or executives focus on profit over people, I I think that's a simplification. I think that's an oversimplification. I think that people are uh that that executives are human beings who are dealing in a very complex um uh environment. So I think we're gonna see more and more and more of this question about what about employee layoffs, mass employee layoffs that continue to continue to be customer-centric while also um you know not taking care of all of these employees. And and it's a it's a challenge of our times. Um and and I think employee loyalty is as important as customer loyalty, it's something to be focused on. If you're not paying attention to your internal customers, what are you doing? Right.

SPEAKER_00 48:16

So Yeah. Um, you know, but I think with the the pace of change too, it's really interesting. I mean, I'll go back to the original um question here. Can you continue to be customer-centric when you value profitability over loyalty to your employee? Um I don't know the answer to that if I'm being real, because I'm you know, initially I would say that's not sustainable because it, you know, I do see that there are ripple effects here, because as certain employees are being laid off today, um, it's creating questions in the minds of those who remain, like how much time do I have left? What's my shelf life? It's also creating um a real issue with uh recruiting power. Um, because you know, hey, you know, I I know the minute that I walk in the door of this organization, I've got an 18-month shelf life maximum before you know I'm then at risk. So how much loyalty am I really going to have to that organization? You know, it's a big fat question mark. Probably not a lot. Um, but if you look at the the change of things, if the organization, even in the midst of layoffs, can lean in and provide the the new era of employees with the right systems, tools, processes, workflows, collaboration tools, support, um, can they continue to thrive and be customer-driven organizations over a long time? Maybe. I mean, I I can't pretend to say uh, you know, you know, even though my model would say, you know, that's not sustainable. I mean, you know, that with the power of AI going on right now, people, you know, may be able to have that, you know, super hyper personalization at scale that allows them to be super performers with a fewer number of people.

unknown 50:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:13

Yeah. I I I think we're all discovering, right? We're in uh we're in um undiscovered country right now. We're we're right now just sort of charting the territory. We don't know. Um, but I know I know that it's changing a lot for everybody. Um, and I don't think I'm saying anything new here, right? It's not like uh, oh, I just discovered AI, right? You know, oh golly. Uh but yeah, it it's hard. And and especially, you know, somebody pointed out here in private companies you have a little more leeway, you have less shareholder pressure. Uh but even within a private company, somebody owns pieces of that private company, and they are, you know, some of those owners are going to want to maximize profitability at the cost of some of the traditions or or loyalties within the company. So it's a constant pull for leaders, and it's one more reason why we need to endure in the middle of this, right? So I agree with that.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

And I think too, you know, the comment about the private companies, um, you know, really interesting. When I was researching for my book, I learned that in 2024, which was a year where kind of nobody did anything, right? No decisions got made, everybody was like holding their breath. Let's wait and see what happens. Yeah, except for private equity firms. And their increase in MA activity was up 24% from the year prior. And that trend has continued over the last year, year and a half or so. So, I mean, and if you look at how private equity companies operate, they're what I refer to as customer tolerant. They recognize the importance of customers, but only insofar as the customer is a means to an end to generate that profitability. And that's not building brand love and affinity. That's not building customer lifetime value. That's not building, you know, an army of rabid fans. It's not being Taylor Swift, that's for sure. So, Tony, I I know we're running short on time here, so we're gonna go ahead and land the plane. So we had the first book in was, you know, a customer-driven company is what? Um the signature sign-off here at the end is what I refer to as two things. So this could be in the form of stop, starts, and continues, but essentially, you know, what's one behavior that you think a leader could start practicing tomorrow that customers would feel almost immediately? And what's maybe something that a leader should stop doing in today's environment that will help them be more effective at driving better customer um centricity?

SPEAKER_01 52:50

Yeah. Um so the first thing I'd say about being better is let the experts be the experts, right? You can't you can't replace uh experience and expertise with a system. Um that you know, I was I was thinking about how physicians and social workers and et cetera used to be part of the team on discharging a patient. Now there is a patient discharge coordinator whose job is to get that person out the door as soon as that's reasonably achievable in some systems, right? Not in all systems. So so let the experts be the experts. Because if you if you rely on the people who have the basis of knowledge to make the decisions, it you're going to get better quality decisions. Keep in mind that endurance is not about grinding harder. Right. And endurance is about you know being calm at first or calming yourself. Like like uh I I think if if more people, including some politicians, um, were better at self-soothing, then we would have a much easier world, right? Uh so so calm, uh clarifying your values. Um uh you know, it's uh it's it's being change agile. It's um it's it's connecting within and without. It's building those connections. Uh, you know, as an endurance athlete, and you know this, James. I I people picture us as the lone runner out on the path, you know, I rarely run alone. I've I've usually got somebody involved here somewhere. And so, you know, that connection uh builds endurance. And then the thing that I said at the top, and I think this is what customers will feel the most, it's that rhythm of rest and recovery. Yeah, you can't you can't sprint your way through a marathon, you can't sprint your way through a business. You need those cycles, that rhythm of rest and recovery, and that'll get you there.

SPEAKER_00 55:03

Something I need to work on personally as well. Tony, thank you so much for being uh my guest today. How can people best get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_01 55:12

Um so probably easiest is cultureshift.com, C-U-L-T-U-R-E, S as in Sam Shift S-H-I-F-T uh.com. And so um they can they can find out more about me there and um you know uh about our offers and about endurance leadership and all that.

SPEAKER_00 55:34

And you offer a a free assessment um as as part of this to to help people um learn about their own start on a journey towards endurance leadership, right?

SPEAKER_01 55:46

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 55:47

Fantastic. Tony, thank you so much for being on. Thanks for the XM Global Collaborative for having us. It's been a really great session, really appreciate you. And then we'll go ahead and sign off now. Thanks so much for joining us today. Thanks, take care of