Episode 3: Burnout

Burnout is more than just feeling stressed or needing a vacation. In this episode, Dr. Stacey and Regular Travis unpack what burnout really is by exploring formal definitions, common misconceptions, and why it's often misunderstood.

Through personal experiences, real-world client presentations (with confidentiality protected), and evidence-based discussion, they examine how burnout can impact work, relationships, motivation, and overall well-being. They also debunk common myths, discuss the warning signs to watch for, and share practical, sustainable strategies to reduce and prevent burnout before it reaches a breaking point.

Whether you're feeling overwhelmed, supporting someone who is, or simply want to better understand this increasingly common experience, this conversation offers education, relatable stories, and actionable takeaways to help you move toward a healthier, more balanced life.

Pull up a chair... you're always welcome at the table.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the table is a wellness podcast intended for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only. While the hosts are licensed professionals and guests may have professional experience and expertise in mental health, healthcare, or related fields, the information shared on this podcast is general in nature and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any medical or mental health condition.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Listening to this podcast does not establish a psychologist client, therapist client, physician patient, or any other professional relationship between you and the host, guests, producers, sponsors, or affiliated organizations. The content presented should not be considered medical, psychological, legal, or professional advice, and should not replace consultation with a qualified healthcare or mental health provider who is familiar with your individual circumstances.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Some topics discussed may involve mental health challenges, trauma, grief, addiction, suicide, abuse, and other sensitive topics that may be emotionally difficult for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. We encourage you to engage with this content thoughtfully and seek professional support if you experience distress.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Any opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of the hosts, podcast producers, sponsors, or affiliated organizations.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

By listening to this podcast, you acknowledge and agree that neither the hosts, guests, producers, nor affiliated organizations assume responsibility or liability for any decisions, actions, or outcomes resulting from the use or interpretation of information discussed on this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

If you are experiencing a mental health crisis, having thoughts of harming yourself or others, or need immediate assistance, call or text 988 to reach the suicide and crisis lifeline. Call 911 or contact your local emergency services.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

We're so glad you're here. Pull up a chair and welcome to the table.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Hi, friends. Welcome to the table. Pull up a chair. Hi, Dr. Stacy. How are you today? I wanted to have a pregnant pause.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

I appreciate the pause. Yeah. I'm not so good at pausing, personally. Yeah. It's a skill that just doesn't come naturally to me. I have to be very conscious of it. So I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 2:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

I'm doing okay. Yeah. I'm doing okay. I think I'm doing okay. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 2:39

You know, I am also doing okay. I tend to mirror what you say. Have you noticed that in our pod here that you say this? Well, you know, quit being a trendsetter with your with your life. Hey. I am doing for reals. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Okay. Um what could be better? Tell me one thing that could be better right now.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Could be better. So, full confession, I'm doing okay in my nutrition, like keeping my macros, but I've been a little like I've eaten ice cream every night this week.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

This is crazy because I've had more ice cream in the past week than I've probably had in the past three months.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

Not every single night.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

But one time I had it twice in one day.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

You know, which is ice. Okay, full confession. I did the same as with friends in Pennsylvania, and they go every night, their family goes to this ice cream shop for Hershey every night. That's their ritual. So every night I was rolling hard on the Hershey's ice cream, and one day we had to stick because you get no Wi-Fi, right? And God forbid we live in a world where we can't tap into the the Wi-Fi do and suck deep from the well. Uh so we would have to go down there to get the Wi-Fi, and we did that early in the day. So I'm like, we're here. And we had ice cream. Then we still kept the ritual of the evening ice cream. Oh my gosh. Two two time.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Yep, yep, yep, yep. Okay. Wow. You're like very validating to me personally because I was having this like you were carrying an ice cream. Oh my gosh, so much ice cream in one week. Um, but not as much as Travis, actually.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

So we're in it together, Dr. Stacy, in our ice cream obsession. So but we're, you know, folks, far be it from us to cast judgment on ourselves or others. If you need ice cream, just eat it and enjoy it and all things in mode moderation. But look at this table.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

We have what's happening here.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Oh man. Fun, fun.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

I mean, actually, I'm gonna cue you in to talk about it. I'm gonna describe it, but you're gonna give a little bit of information because you have more insights.

SPEAKER_03 4:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

So I want you to picture very thin cloth, something you might double up to make uh an old-timey skirt or dress, perhaps.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Yeah, that's good. Um I like it.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

A little frayed at the edges. Yeah. Like if I took a lighter to the edge, maybe that would make it stop doing that, but slightly frayed at the edge.

SPEAKER_03 5:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Um, and full of color and life via paint.

SPEAKER_03 5:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

So the cloth itself is a cream white, maybe it was white at one point. I would say a little off-white-ish. Yeah. But like a flavor blast of colors throughout via paint.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

I like that description. Thanks. Yeah, so this is uh in another part of my life. I am an acrylic artist.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Um and working in that acrylic is a type of paint for those who are not artists. Thank you. Hi.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Yes, acrylic paint. So acrylic paint is water-based and it's easier to work with, it dries quick, you can blend it easier. And I I that's how I work. I'm an abstract artist, so I paint that way. And this particular piece of cloth I pulled out of um, because why wouldn't you have a sewing room in your house? And it has lots of fabrics. They are not my fabrics, they are my partner's fabric. And uh, she typically doesn't get too stirred up if I grab something out of there. So I grab this, and I can't tell you what this is. She could tell you what this is. Uh, and then my process is I just enjoy really emptying myself and then just allowing a more subconscious approach to my painting, and then it takes form as I continue to do it. So that's what we have before us is a Travis Skelly original acrylic art piece as our tablecloth.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

On the table. And I as you were saying that, I was thinking about what is this material? I know this material, it's a linen of sorts. Yeah. I have had shirts and pants made out of material like this.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

And I'm thinking this would be lovely if we uh Would you like are you saying you like a little halter top? Yeah. Original? Yeah. It'd be so cute. The problem is unless I stiff where the paint is. And because it's not fabric paint, when you wash this, it's a water-based acrylic. Who knows what will happen to it? And you could condition and season it.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

I'm worried about what might else, what else might be in my washing machine.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Yeah. Yeah. In my washing machine. If you put anything in there, it will be what how did you say a flavor blast of color. Flavor blast of color. It is. Yeah. So I'm happy that our table can be covered with my artwork. And just so you all know, folks, the world can be covered in my artwork. I'm happy to do it.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Yes. So today we're going to give you a little preview. Yeah. A little uh snippet of what we're drinking.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Listen close, folks.

SPEAKER_01 7:43

Mmm. Refreshing.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

Refreshing.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

What is that sound?

SPEAKER_00 7:50

That is the sound of soda pop.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Oh boy, here we go.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Today's episode of Welcome to the Table is the hosts are being are consuming soda pop.

SPEAKER_03 8:02

We are.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

I am consuming good old fashioned the OG Diet Coke.

SPEAKER_03 8:08

Diet Coke.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Not to be confused with Coke Zero. Not to be confused with gold label.

SPEAKER_03 8:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

I.e. no caffeine. Caffeine's still here.

SPEAKER_03 8:16

Full blown.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Diet ready to go. Silver label. And this is uh FIFA edition. There's a soccer ball on it.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Wow. Um that is uh fancy, you know, Coke is is right in there.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Yeah. Like they they are they're doing all of the fueling the FIFA players.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Fueling the players. Each one they got rid of Gatorade. They're just tubs of Diet Coke. Open open vats. Like they dump the Diet Coke all over themselves. It's amazing. It really is.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Only a little sticky.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Yeah. So I went a little different direction, America. Um, I am having a nice Diet Mountain Dew. Um so crisp. Doing the dew. So this is just the normal Diet Dew label uh with mountains from the highest peaks of the dew mountains there.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Let me tell you something I appreciate about my Diet Mountain Dew.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

There is 10 calories.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Which you know, most diet coke has or most diet sodas have zero. Yeah. But in my head, the 10 calories tells me there's something so authentic and real about this. Yeah. It's negating the fakeness of diet soda.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

Like we're diet, but we'll still push you down. Yeah, exactly. Like we'll put you in a headlock.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

We're diet that way.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Love it.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

And I'm gonna take it, let me take a little sip here. Mm-mm. There it is. And if you've never had Diet Dew, uh just a small snippet before we get into our topic, Mountain Dew historically was created as an alcoholic mixer.

unknown 9:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

That was its original purpose, was up in the mountains as you were making uh some good old shine.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

Moonshine.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

You needed a little dew to mix it up, and that's where Mountain Dew came from. Now, the founders of I'm guessing this is a Pepsi product uh might send us a cease and desist for that story because it's probably a pretty abridged version. But let me just tell you this it is your one-way ticket to Flavortown.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

One way.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

And even the diet version of it is so like you want to talk about flavor blasted.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Yeah. There it is. It's fl it's so flavor blasted that they etch MD into the bottle. Like you were you're pedaled to the metal.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Yeah, actually, as I examine my boring smooth Diet Coke bottle, yeah. It's like, what are we doing?

SPEAKER_01 10:46

You put these together and it's like, what do we got?

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Not not the same.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Not the same.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

Cut from two different fabrics.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

That's okay. This is kind of how we are. You know, you're you're pretty polished Diet Coke, and I'm in the wild. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:01

In the wild.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

In the wild.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Yeah, maybe we're changing from regular Travis to wild Travis.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Ooh, I like that. Wild Travis for this episode. Let me get another sip of this dew, and then it's gonna get wild in here.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Okay, so today's topic is burnout.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Burnout. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Let's tell you, we're first gonna tell you what definition of burnout we're not going to be using today.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Yeah, so not doing any donuts in the parking lot. Um, all tire tread will be protected.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Dr. Stacy's not Tokyo drifting out of here. Maybe she might, but that's not the burnout. Uh, we're certainly not gonna talk about what all my parents' friends told them about me or how I might end up in life. Um, we're not defining anybody's uh no no prophecies spoken over anybody that you will be this. And uh yeah, no, it's certainly not a t-shirt. Remember the old burnout t-shirts?

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Yes, not that either.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

It's not a burnout. So uh Dr. Stacy, what can you tell us about burnout?

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Well, um, I can tell you a handful of things. Um, but you know who I think would be even better is the American Psychological Association.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Oh man, not Siri.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Not Siri. Well, let's give Siri a chance too. Should we start with Siri?

SPEAKER_01 12:22

Yeah, if I don't know if Siri, let's see what Siri says.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Let's see what Siri says and see how it compares.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Hey Siri. Define burnout. My Siri's not talking to me right now. Um if you pour Mountain Dew on Siri, she does not like it. Uh so Siri says that the reduction. Oh, oh, whoops, whoops, I lost it. Hold on. Bring it back. It's popping all over the place now. Siri says nothing about it because uh, folks, what you may not know is I am inept at using apparently my Siri. Siri defined burnout. Here we're gonna try this again. Good thing we edit these down because it's not nothing's happening. It was something about reducing fuel in the in the system, which uh let's just say Siri is not is off topic.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Okay, Siri is a no-go for today. Let's circle back to the actual uh Okay, so the initial definition I'm taking from uh take care.org burnout is a syndrome that results from the long-term pressure of work, school, family, or other issues. According to the American Psychological Association, someone going through burnout may experience physical, emotional, or mental exhaustion, decreased motivation, and negative attitudes towards themselves or others. While stress can cause you to feel overwhelmed, burnout can make you feel numb, disinterested, and unmotivated. Burnout, if it's left untreated, can spiral into things like depression.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

So we can get we can get somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

That was a very official definition.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

Yeah. So what do you what do you think? What do you take from that definition?

SPEAKER_01 14:17

Yeah, I think what I take from that definition is that burnout is a process that there are signs and symptoms of it that we may not even fully be aware of or privy to. But it also has destination point, like it's a process to something. So it could be a process to depression or a process to some type of maybe breakdown, process to which we might do some, I I don't want to say drastic, but could be drastic things. Like I'm quitting my job, I can't take it anymore.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Yeah, absolutely. So something that I am pulling from that definition is who burnout may affect. Um, so I think stereotypically, when we think of the, you know, APA version of burnout, yeah, um, this exhaustion, this kind of like overworked feeling, a lot of times we're thinking of really high achieving professionals or uh, you know, something's going on where you are like pushed to your brim in a professional sense. Um, but I I like this definition because it really draws on the fact that this can be from school, family issues. This is not, you are not subject to burnout only if you're under certain professions or in a certain professional role.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Um, burnout can happen to anybody.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Yeah. And it also, I like that because I think we could extend it beyond just focusing in on career and work. That you can get burned out of life conditions, you know, whatever that may be. And work is attached to that, but it may not be your career, it may not be your profession. It may be I'm burned out of parenting. You know, I'm burned out of caregiving for an older adult in my life, or, you know, I'm burned out of Mountain Dew.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

You could be. You could get there. Yeah. And I think that also brings up like another topic that I'm thinking of related to burnout, where folks may misattribute the burnout, thinking that burnout again, kind of going back to, oh, it must be my job. I'm stressed at work. Um, a lot of times we'll see it, I've seen it many a times with clients where they're thinking their burnout or their feelings of burnout, maybe they're not quite identifying yet as being fully burnt out, um, but feeling like they're approaching that.

SPEAKER_03 16:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

Um, they're saying it's, you know, my job, I'm stressed, I'm this and that. Um, but when we uncover or when we dig a little bit deeper, really their job is what's really providing them a sense of purpose and drive. What they're really burnt out from is the lack of balance that they have. It's not the job itself, it is the hours that the job is. Or um, you know, maybe there's something happening at home and they don't really want to admit to themselves that that is actually what's causing the stress or causing the mental fatigue or the, you know, this over overloaded mental load. Yeah. Um, because that might be a burden to somebody else. Yeah. Um, so it's easier just to say it's gotta be work-related. I have a stressful job, it makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Yeah. Well, and I think that um there's this maybe a sense of what control do I have over it? And if I can give it some agency, like my work is triggering this, yeah. Then these other areas that I have really no control or I don't want to confront can't be the culprit, right? It has to be work. Because then work, you're you may not be looking to change your career. You may not be looking to challenge the structure of it, and you can just kind of resign yourself to like, oh, it is what it is, versus oh, over here I could maybe work on this and it wouldn't alleviate the burnout.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Yeah. Yeah. So thinking about your experience, whether you personally, if you've ever reached a point of burnout or you've seen people in your life experience burnout, what to you um indicates or cues you in that burnout is on the horizon?

SPEAKER_01 18:13

It's on the horizon. So I think for me, um, my first experience, I would say, in my professional life and like mental health care, and you know, I think any care provider probably runs into some fatigue in helping others and and serving in that capacity. Um But I think for me it became this realization that the things that I was trying to do to offset the like the fatigue or the overwhelmed feeling were no longer effective in offsetting how I was feeling. And I think in the in my caregiver space, what that informed me, the realization was I hit a capacity of like this is as much as I can give in this space, and I don't know how to find another well to draw from to fill that bucket. And so now I'm only giving this amount. Um, and whatever that led to in my personal life, I just knew I'm at a point where I don't know where to go with this to to figure it out. And I think that's when I realized, boy, you I'm just burned out. Like I don't I'm not it's kind of like oh man, I can eat this chocolate cake and it's really good, but now I just have no taste for it at all. And I take a bite of it and it's flavorless. And used to, I love chocolate cake, but now everything just feels very dulled.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

I think is yeah, maybe my personal experience with it, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

Yeah. So my I don't know that this would be my definition of burnout, but my definition of burnout approaching um is when the stress and overwhelm outweighs the drive and passion. Yeah. So I once was so driven, motivated, and passionate about blank.

SPEAKER_03 20:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

And now the stress is superseding that. Um, and when I get to that point, or when I see folks get to that point, then we need to reel it back in. Hold on a second. Yeah. Like where why is the passion lost? Is it really that we've, you know, moved on from that situation, whether that's uh a job, an entire career, a relationship, um, or is it just that these circumstances, the stress surrounding these circumstances, is overshadowing it?

SPEAKER_03 20:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Um, and a lot of times we can see that like kind of offset, we step back and say, wait a second, I'm actually taking no time with my friends, family, spouse.

SPEAKER_03 20:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Um, I'm putting all of my time and effort into you know, I'm thinking of grad students, right? Like you have all these deadlines, these expectations, you're making no money. Yeah. Um, it sucks. Yeah. Like it's really tough. And if you're not, if your passion for your project does not outweigh the stress, overwhelm, and pressure, you will burn out.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Yeah. And you know it's interesting because I think in terms of like an ecosystem, right? And and for us, for me, when I think of my personal burnout, it's very singularly focused. So if I think of a healthy ecosystem in nature, that system is diverse with lots of things happening in it. But if it is overrun, you know, with something that becomes very homogenized, uh, an invasive species, for example, that just takes over everything, the whole infrastructure, that's all we can see. And it's hard to understand is there anything else in all of this? Like I need how do I even tease out what needs to go away and do so. I think that was, and I appreciate you bringing that up because I think that's where I got. Because burnout uh i is so heavily attached, I think, to purpose and meaning and you become so singularly focused on just this one thing is triggering it that we can't look at the whole ecosystem and see all the things that might be initiated or overrun. And so how do you regain, right, that purpose and that that fuel once it's slipped off? Yeah, that's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Yeah, I'm thinking similarly, talking about like a stay-at-home mom. So I've heard it before many times. Well, you know, she can't be burnt out because she's at home all day, doing what she loves. She's with the kids, right? But again, if we take that um kind of equation that I said, if the passion for being mom and homemaker dwindles below the amount of pressure, stress, overwhelm, this is no longer a good time for anybody involved, right? So yeah, I think like being subject to burnout is, you know, kind of operating. Keep that equation in mind.

SPEAKER_03 23:06

I like that.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

Like, can I maintain drive, motivation, and passion for this despite, I mean, the reality is this shit's gonna be stressful.

SPEAKER_01 23:15

It's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

We're gonna have pressure, we're gonna have um stressors that come up, we're gonna have grief, we're gonna have loss, we're gonna have things that are triggering us in a way that is we're not gonna see the best version of ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

And I think it's important, I appreciate that. I I love a great visual, and that helps in my mind's eye visualize kind of that point of struggle there. Uh and I think attached to all this is this shame and guilt, right? Because we well, you're home all day, you're with the kids, and you can be questioned like, oh, don't you love your kids enough? You wanted to be a mom, or don't you care enough about this population? You should be coming to work, and everybody's burned out. So what's you know, what's your big deal? Um keep your own.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

You're so fortunate that you have the ability to be in blend position.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Kind of the uh the old count your blessings, would you, which I'm not suggesting doesn't work, but in that point, it doesn't work well.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

And it's like very like it's not validating, that's for sure. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

It's not validating. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Yeah. So um yeah, let's think about different areas when we're talking about folks in the professional realm.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Who do you think like ranks high?

SPEAKER_01 24:32

The highest burnout?

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Yeah, just high in general. So I have for context, I will like let you know. I have 12 professions most prone to burnout, but not in any particular order.

SPEAKER_03 24:41

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

And they kind of like shimmy around which one's number one.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

But I found a handful of different articles and the overlap was So you want me to shoot for a ranking, or can I just throw spaghetti at the bottom?

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Yeah, throw some spaghetti.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

So I obviously, and I'm gonna generalize, healthcare workers are gonna be in there. But I would also put service industry workers like retail. Um, having spent a large portion of my life working in that industry, high, high levels of burnout.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Like big, big time. I would imagine the trades can be a burnout point.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Okay, hold on. Let's break that down. Go back to the service industry.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Yeah, let's let's I'm I told you spaghetti at the wall.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

No, no, no. I I like it. I'm just I have a follow-up question.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Service industry.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

Tell me why that makes sense based on that equation.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

So your equation was remind me of the equation.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Uh when stress and overwhelm and pressure outweighs passion, drive, motivation for that particular thing.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you're speaking specifically in like service industry of retail and that or healthcare service. Service. Just service in general to other people.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

Let's not healthcare, not healthcare.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

Non-healthcare, but service industry.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Retail, food.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

I would think there is a monotony to it. Um and as you are continuing to do the things that are the same every day, day in and day out, you start wondering what exactly am I really doing for people? Yeah. So and I think, yeah, the complaint plays a part, but I think that's more of the one of the paper cuts or the straws. But I think the core thing, when I think back to my time in retail, you start feeling like if I'm mowing an endless lawn and the grass is just gonna keep growing, and what am I really doing with it? Yeah, does that touch on some of it?

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Yep. Um, my thought was um the lack of appreciation. So you hit on like complaint, yeah, yeah, yeah. But just like feeling like you don't really get to see a lot of the great things. Yeah. You're working for a retail store, you see somebody leave with their thing, you don't see them jazzed about the outfit that they put together. Yeah, yeah. I think that there's a lot of um there's minimal opportunities for praise, and there's a lot of opportunities to be corrected or to be told something's wrong. Um so I totally agree. Okay, so you got service industry, you have healthcare. Yeah. What else you got?

SPEAKER_01 27:22

You said uh I think probably the trades like construction, things like that.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

What else?

SPEAKER_01 27:28

You know, ooh, what else? What else can we do? I have a list of twelve. You don't have to give twelve. Burnout rate there. Um in the business world, I would think probably like CEOs, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 27:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

Folks in that realm, financial kind of folks.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

So basically anyone anyone, everyone is burnt out, is what you're telling me.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

Oh everybody's burned out. Okay. So no. Okay. So what's the list?

SPEAKER_00 28:02

The list that I have, like I said, I've I went through a handful of different articles, and there's a lot of overlap, a few variations, but roughly um we have uh food service industry, including chefs. Yeah, teachers. You didn't mention teachers.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Oh, sorry, teachers. That was nothing against you.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Uh veterinary industry.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Doctors, physicians.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Mental health professionals, separate. Yeah. Um nurses, also separate. So these are separate line offs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Air traffic controllers.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Yeah, you know, high pressure. Yeah. I got a couple of buddies who are air traffic controller. We could talk about that someday because it's very interesting.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Yeah. Do you hear that it is very stressful? Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

And one thing, real quickly, about air traffic controllers that we we don't know is there's a forced retirement age. And you get trained in a specific location and then you are assigned to a spot. You don't get to choose where you go. So you once you enter into that that um that industry, from that point on, you have little to no control over your own career, time off, all that. And it is that constant thought of what you are actually controlling, right? And just because you're staring at these things on a screen, sometimes you feel this disconnect from the life that is in your hands, and it's a lot of pressure.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Um, and the forced retirement age is is really low. It's like in your 50s.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

No kidding.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

Yep. So you can work only this amount of time in the industry and then you are you exit it because it's just after that point, I'm guessing they have research to indicate that. They assume cognitively you are that you just cannot stare lips on the thing anymore. Um it's interesting. Like, you know, if you know personalities in different industries, air traffic controllers have their own kind of little niche personalities.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

Yeah. It seems like you have to.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Okay, so some others on the list. IT professionals.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

Oh. Uh-oh.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

Similar.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

You know, just like the monotony, I'm imagining. Yeah. The lack of, you know, what's on the other end of it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Yeah, what's on the other end of AI. No, I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

Probably. Uh journalist. I was surprised about that one.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

But you're in a lot of traumatic stuff sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

Yep. That's actually with the first line item covering a lot of trauma. Yeah. So that makes sense. Uh surgeons, law enforcement, and firefighters. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

And I like that they pull out like very specifically, because I think we can think generally.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

Yeah. For sure. So um further, um, the article discusses symptoms within a professional life that would indicate burnout is happening or it's on the rise. Uh persistent exhaustion, physical or mental. Okay. Detachment from work. So unable to remain focused and engaged, or the lack of desire to be engaged with work.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Yeah, autopilot.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Yep. Uh reduced performance or feelings of ineffectiveness and irritability, impatience, and emotional flat flatness.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

So, in your experience hearing that, that kind of stuff, um, do you recall a time when you worked with somebody and you recognized in them like even if you didn't know like this is burnout, like some of those things were popping up, like, oh.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

Yeah. I mean, it happens a lot. Like I said, folks will come in with, you know, problem A that they're really fixated on. They know that this is an issue. Yeah. Um, but problem A has like overshadowed a myriad of other issues that, to be honest, um, you know, it's like the chicken of the egg. Where do we really start? But uncovering a lot of the background, we often find, wait a second, yeah. There's something else at play here. Like it is not that the job sucks or that you can't stand your coworker. There's all these other factors in play. Yeah. Um, what's happening at home? Are you actually burnt out from being dual role? Yeah. Caregiver, full-time caregiver, and full-time employee. Yeah. That's a lot. And that's the reality that a lot of folks are are living, whether that's caregiving for children or caregiving for an elder family member. So we see it on both sides.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Yeah, that's interesting because you know, you think of your identity, right? But then there's the roles of any identity that go with it. And we're we have to switch around. One of there's a sh a show on HBO Max called The Pit. I don't know if you've watched it.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

I've not watched it, but I've I've heard of it.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

It it's set in a in an ER in Pittsburgh, and I feel like it does a fantastic job of showing burnout play out in the in the so every episode's one hour on the shift of an ER shift. And anything and everything that can happen with that, and all that comes into a very busy ER, and one character in particular is the manager, like you know, the head doctor in the ER, and his so good, but you watch from his personal life to his professional life how it has just bared down upon him to the point where he's like, What is this all for? Yeah. And you see it starting to come out sideways in his in himself in anxiety, but also with his like his co-workers and everybody. It's a just a really interesting look at how things kind of that process and where it can end up, if not headed off at the past.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Yeah, let's go to where it could end up. Yeah. Let's think about like some maybe unhealthy coping mechanisms that folks turn to in times of again, they may not even be identifying it as burnout, but you know, hindsight or bird's eye view, we can say, mm, burnout is or was approaching at that point.

SPEAKER_03 34:09

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Yeah. So we see a lot of increased um drugs and alcohol consumption. Absolutely. That's a that's a place to turn for a lot of folks. And a lot of times it starts with it's just, you know, a glass of wine only on Thursdays before the weekend. Yeah. Plus the weekend. Yeah. You know. So we have Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and then you could probably have a a glass of wine on Wednesday, wine Wednesday, duh, hello. Yeah. And then before you know it, we have the seven day a week, yeah, you know, need a drink just to unwind from work, yeah. Kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 34:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Um, and you know, uh, how do we define that? Is that a problem? They're not getting drunk every night. Um, they claim that they can stop whenever, but it's not causing them harm. So why would they?

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Yeah. Well, and that is, I mean, there's a reason things like this become dependent beyond the the biochemistry, right? Is that these are managers and governors of things. Um that in my person and it's these are slow slides. I think sometimes we think it's like zero to hot. Like one day I've taken a drink for you know entertainment, and now here I am like drinking a this much. And it really doesn't happen that way. You described it very well that it starts with a governor of this thing or or whatever it is, and then slowly it becomes a dependency upon this thing to manage other things, and then a dependency just physically, mentally, all aspects, and then it becomes all-encompassing, right? Full blown into addiction, and without getting into the criteria, right, of assessing somebody who might carry an addiction or not. We know um that while it may be and continuing to successfully manage this, there's a destructive element to it, right? That we may not even be able to see, but now we're dependent upon it to manage this. Right. Um, and that can really, I think, be a lot of things. Um, I remember when I started in community mental health, I weighed this much. I didn't put a number up there, but I I was I felt pretty healthy and over time I gained a lot of weight. Food became a big manager for me. It was a place I could go, you know, and and you gotta eat, right? But it was just something different. It was not a healthy way to cope with all the stress of life. But at the end of the day, it was easier to grab a pizza or drive through and just pound some stuff that made my brain say, ah, yeah, you know, you're relieved off of this.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

And also feeling like I deserve this. And feeling like that.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

Yeah, give me a piece of cake. Yeah. I deserve to have ice cream, right? All of those things. And nothing wrong with having those things in your life. But we're talking about the managers, right? What we go to as a respite from and trying to head these off. And we also know that these are such short-lived fixes to the problem. They don't, they're not going to endure because uh a chemical dependency of some type will overrun your life, and then you're at work and you might feel like you need that thing, right? And now big problems, right? For sure. A lot of consequences.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Yeah. Another thing that we see a lot is folks turning to potentially inappropriate relationships under certain circumstances. So let's go back to like take the profession out of the equation. Maybe home life's not that great. Yeah. Maybe there's something going on and it feels like a quick fix to get some attention elsewhere.

SPEAKER_03 37:52

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

Um, and so then you know, you start to break down the walls, and you know, there's this perception of what's going on. Then we have, well, what's really happening behind the scenes and um a little bit more introspection, like what's going on? Is there a self-confidence, self-esteem? Is there feelings of abandonment, lack of attachment, and all of those? Um, so we see it a lot. It's not just necessarily obtaining a substance of sorts. This may be getting attention from different individuals or engaging in different types of relationships as a means to cope with the things that they're not happy with or the things that they're feeling overwhelmed by.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

Yeah. We might just kind of categorize that as all risky behavior, right? That we're willing to take these risks in whatever it is, whether it's a substance or relationship or activity.

SPEAKER_03 38:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

You know, um, that maybe I drive a little faster and maybe I have these intrusive thoughts about, you know, what if I just took my hands off the wheel?

SPEAKER_02 38:49

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

Yeah, or or I'm gonna get into riskier activities.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

So another thing then, uh as the one article alluded to, like if burnout is, you know, goes untreated or like not handled or tended to, we can lead to depression. Right. And also turn to other, you know, potentially misdiagnosing um different mental health disorders because of, especially when we're talking about risk-taking behaviors. Okay, so now we're engaging with things that we didn't engage with before. Suddenly, on paper, maybe someone meets the criteria for mania.

SPEAKER_03 39:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Um and so now we have a whole other slew of things to consider. But if we get to the root of all of this, started with burnout. If we can handle the burnout from a more holistic perspective, do we get to that manic state? Right. Some people will. And we know that there's a biological component to all mental illnesses. Um, and there's a lot that are perpetuated by, as you say, the paper cuts that lead up to things that lead up to the explosion, really.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

Yeah. Well, yeah. And that is um, you as the clinician might you're trying to tease that out with the individual. Yeah. You know. And sometimes it gets to that point, right? It's a crisis now. Yeah. And the crisis is different in that acute setting when you're trying to tease out the one thing or the couple of things that you can settle down enough to get the clearest picture. But you can walk out of that crisis point, as you alluded to, with a myriad of misdiagnoses and medications that are really not for that, but for all, you know, for that moment, this is how it presents, this is what we have before us, this is what we're going with. And maybe it has some effectiveness, but it's not getting to the heart of the issue.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Yeah. Yeah. That like momentary, momentary release. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so when we're thinking of like crisis response, we're thinking of like the ER, we're thinking of inpatient mental health.

SPEAKER_03 40:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

We see it all the time. Yeah. Folks are coming in with, you know, their crisis, they're coming out with five diagnoses and a handful of medication.

SPEAKER_03 41:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

Um, which again, sometimes is exactly what they needed.

SPEAKER_03 41:05

Right.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

Sometimes did we get to what was actually going on? I would argue a lot of times we don't. And it's interesting in the private practice realm, we'll see um two different ends of the spectrum. Some folks coming in really not wanting a diagnosis. And they have the the right to say, I don't want to be diagnosed. Now, not if insurance is involved. Right. And that's a whole other catalog. But if somebody's doing self-pay, they can say, You think whatever you want to think about me, but don't don't you dare tell me and definitely don't write it out my chart.

SPEAKER_03 41:35

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

Um, so that's their choice. They have the option to do that. So I I see that side of it. Then I see other folks coming in every fifth or sixth session with, do you think I might have um and they kind of want those additional diagnoses to validate their feelings, validate their experiences. And I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong.

SPEAKER_03 41:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

Um, but it's interesting to see both sides of that. Um, and I always say like, knowing the why doesn't fix the problem. That's right. So knowing why you have these presentations, whether it's bipolar uh or is it you know intense stress burnout that it's presenting as mania, and you maybe meet the qualif uh the diagnostic criteria for depression.

SPEAKER_03 42:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

Um so we have this little bit of swing. People are like, oh my gosh, I'm bipolar. I have I have both sides. Yeah. Um when we really break it down, if that's not there, yeah, what is either way we're working on the symptoms. Yeah. Um you know, the the side note to that would be a lot of people are like, yeah, but like understanding it feels validating. I want to know why I'm presenting this too.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

Give me a label for it, and then I can work from that point. And that that's true, you know, and and trying, you know, to wrap a stigma in that diagnosis part from burnout, you know, you're really trying to get people to use the language and the thinking of living with rather than I am this, right? Because that is difficult in the crisis. I mean, now when I refer to crisis in this moment, you know, working in an inpatient behavioral health hospital where we get the folks when they're to that pinnacle point who will come to us. And it's not uncommon for folks to come in with multiple diagnoses and they've anchored some of their own identity to it because there's a comfort, right? Now I know what I'm dealing with. I am this. And then in addition to, and obviously that's the work, right? We're gonna treat the symptoms, but we're also gonna try to initiate some thinking around it. Like the behaviors don't have to be always rooted in in uh meaning, okay, I've done my exhaustive work on being bipolar, so this is how I have to act because I'm bipolar.

SPEAKER_03 43:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:51

That you don't have to be at the mercy of that. And you know, similarly trying to figure out oh, if you if You were burned out and we approached it this way, it might cut out a bunch of wrong turns.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

So that begs the question should burnout be a DSM diagnosis?

SPEAKER_01 44:11

Ooh, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_00 44:13

That should have been healing and hot takes, but we'll just we'll address it now.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:19

What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 44:20

Well, I think that when I think of the diagnostic manual, right, you're looking at, okay, here's the diagnoses, and then here are here are the the signs and the duration of the things that are going on, right? You're you're the doc. I'm regular Travis. So this is a layman's understanding of the diagnostic manual. And the short answer is I've always seen the diagnostic manual as a living document in the sense that it ought to be considered to be changed and added to and taken away. It it's not an exhaustive, like, okay, this is this is you know the uninfallible word of right. We know that it has had why it's called the DSM 5 is because there's been other other iterations of it as we learn more. Uh I think that burnout, what would be nice about it be having its own separate criteria and diagnoses is that now you might be able to in a lesser grade, less intense kind of diagnoses, appeal to someone's insurance to pay for treatment modalities that are not way out, right? Because you you're gonna struggle with that. Insurance, as much as we don't like to talk about it, is gonna say, well, what's the diagnosis?

SPEAKER_00 45:41

100%.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

And how are you justifying your treatment to this diagnosis, right? If we suspect it's I don't want to say just burnout, but it's burnout, but we cannot m sidele somebody who's already in a stressful point, like, well, I can't treat this, right? And I'm not trying to push a moral dilemma on a clinician to say, I'm just gonna give you this diagnosis, wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

For sure. Yeah. So I, yeah, it's PSA to anybody who doesn't know this. If you've ever been in therapy and you utilized insurance, you have a diagnosis, whether you know this or not. So if your clinician did not communicate that diagnosis to you, you have a right to know what that diagnosis is.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

What are you billing under is a good question. It's a great question.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

Your provider will answer that appropriately.

SPEAKER_01 46:33

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

Um yeah. So I I always go back to so the DSM being this, you know, very objectified version of something that's super subjective. So in so many ways, I want to throw it out the window and be like this is a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 46:47

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

On the other hand, for the sake of getting coverage, this is very helpful for a lot of individuals.

SPEAKER_03 46:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

So yeah, when we're talking insurance, we have to have a diagnostic code on every single session. And we can't say in one session you no longer have a diagnosis. Right. Because if we say that, insurance says then you no longer need to be in there. Which is yeah, that's a whole other thing. Anyway, um so for that reason, I I do like sort of like the idea of burnout being a diagnosis. Um my fear though is if it were a diagnosis, then would that be more stigmatized? Is it um chicken or the easier to talk about now and easier to admit to feeling burnt out since it's not a DSM clinical diagnosis? Yeah. So I always go back to the adjustment disorder, which is like the most beautiful diagnosis that ever was to be in the DSM, because I mean, we all have met the criteria for an adjustment disorder at one point or another. Um the caveat is it's technically only a six-month disorder. So make sure that we're re-upping our treatment plans accordingly.

SPEAKER_01 47:53

But folks, another one of uh whiz wiz nugget wisdoms from doctor states.

SPEAKER_00 48:00

Yeah. So if, you know, we're the concept of an adjustment disorder is there is a stressor that is creating, you know, an array in our internal mechanisms, right? So something happened externally that has caused us to feel unwell. And we don't even really have to identify what version of unwell is because um there's adjustment disorder with depressed mood, adjustment disorder with anxiety, and there's a really beautiful one, adjustment disorder unspecified, wherein we don't even have to say what's happening. Um, we just have to say there is a stressor and the client is less well because of it, and we're gonna work on getting through that stressor to be able to continue going to therapy. So then that's great.

SPEAKER_01 48:44

Right. That so that leaves me wondering instead of having its own separate, like you're burned out. That's your diagnosis, you're a burnout. Um we can use this adjustment disorder, and the sub point to that could be what is causing and triggering is is a is burnout. And that then puts maybe, oh, I'm not gonna always carry this for the rest of my life.

SPEAKER_02 49:08

Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:08

But there's a period of my life where I'm experiencing this season of burnout, right? Um, and you're right, that that certainly we don't wanna of we want to diminish as much stigma. Um it's already challenging enough to admit like I'm feeling some kind of way, and then to say, well, now I'm gonna label you with this, and if your coworkers find out they're gonna be like, Oh, don't don't mess with Bob. He's burnt out. He's burnt out. And then we can think of the darker sides of what that word is attached to. Like Bob's gonna come in and go postal on everybody or whatever it is, and now Bob feels like people don't trust me. Yeah, I'm othered at work now, whereas used to I was just Bob. Or I'm not trusted anymore. Or I'm not trusted.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

Maybe I slipped up a couple times and didn't do things the way that they needed to be done. Yeah, and now everyone's viewing me as incompetent or incapable.

SPEAKER_01 50:05

Yeah. And in some of my friends who work in many of those industries that you described as high levels of burnout, we can call it stigma, but that trust is the biggest thing, especially in a in a profession where you feel like you are people are dependent on you to do it, you will hide these things because if once you lose that trust, then it's like I I don't know if I can ever get it back.

SPEAKER_02 50:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:33

And can I be the type of person I need to be in this space? And will people trust me to be that? Or if I show any sign in the future, will they be like, uh-oh, see, here we go. We can't trust him.

SPEAKER_00 50:45

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, okay, so let's think about the concept of burnout and what we can do with burnout. So, what is our responsibility in the matter if we begin to feel like the burnout coming on? Yeah, we're feeling those like precursors to full-blown burnout.

SPEAKER_03 51:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:03

Um, so I mean, uh you tell me, what do you what do you think is our responsibility?

SPEAKER_01 51:09

Well, I think that like most things, having safe places and people we can talk to initially is is probably a very good way to start. Yeah. And maybe even the way to deal with it in general. There's a comfort in a room full of people who are struggling with a similar thing. And now, let me just caveat there's also uh the real challenge of commiseration just breeding more of the same negativity. For sure. Um, so gotta be careful. Like I'm if my coworker and I are super burned out and we are just now kind of getting together to to bitch, but we never really exit out of that space. All it is is like, you know, I'm ventilating, but the air fills right back in and it just never goes anywhere. So I think when I it's a trusted person, maybe a friend, but also a professional, you know, seeking that help early and being comfortable with like, hey, I'm gonna talk to somebody.

SPEAKER_00 52:15

Yeah, plug for therapy.

SPEAKER_01 52:17

Plug for therapy. There you go. Dr. Stacy's here for you. That's your jingle.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

There it is.

SPEAKER_01 52:23

You can use that.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

Okay, so something else that I would say is identifying what fuels you and what drains you. And that sounds so silly. No, I like it. I know that, but yeah, so many people cannot answer the this really simple question that I ask every single client, which is what brings you joy? And people will sit there and not have an answer.

SPEAKER_01 52:44

Do you feel like though it's kind of like what's your favorite movie or what's your favorite song? You have it. But then it's like, how do I but I and I don't want to knock it.

SPEAKER_00 52:55

You know, just what brings you to the job. That's true. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 52:58

So I could be like I forget you're the professional.

SPEAKER_00 53:01

My thought is I might, if I was asked that question, I might be like, depending on the day, my answer might be different. But I'd say, Yeah, well, right now I'm thinking, you know, here are the things that bring me joy, right? Okay. Um, so what fuels you, what like yeah, you know, brightens you up, yeah. But also what takes, you know, sucks the life out of you for lack of a better term. Yeah. Like knowing those two things is really, really important because inevitably we are going to have things that suck the life out of us. Sorry, yeah, spoiler alert, it's gonna happen. So if we can offset some of that bad with things that make us feel good, yeah, go back to that balancing act of how burnout happens to begin with. If we can offset that equation, um we will be better. Yeah. We will either prevent it from getting to full blown burnout, or if we've made it to that space, that's probably our first step in trying to get out of that space of burnout.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

Yeah. And and I'm also a big fan of a physical, like if you have to write these things on post-its, on things around your your space to where you can see them as reminders of like this brings me joy to do this. Yeah. Have you done this? Did you pet your cat today? You know, like sometimes those are the very simple things that bring you a lot of joy. Like my buddy runs a small business and it's very stressful. You run a small business, you can you can and some days he tells me at the end of the day, he's like, I just need to go to my apartment and pet my cat. Like that is his, that's his what brings him fulfillment and joy is like I spend time doing this. So I think having that knowledge, I agree, is is fantastic. But write it down, put it somewhere, post it around your house. Don't who cares what people think? And when they ask, guess what? It's a great chance to talk to other people about well, you know, I struggle with some of this, and this helps remind me that there are really good things in my life that I can do and then ask them, what brings you joy? Yeah. What fulfills you? And now all of a sudden you're you're synergizing this community of people who focus in on those things. Yeah. And it stops being so like this dirty thing that we all because we're all dealing with it. So what brings you joy? Yeah. Well, so that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 55:15

What that sparked for me was actually something. Um, I had a client, a past former client, reach out to me probably a year after we discontinued working together. Um, and discontinued working together just because like he was doing better. Like it was uh successful. Goals accomplished. Yeah, absolutely. Um but he reached out via email and said, just wanted to let you know that I utilized and he referenced something that we did super early on. Yeah. I worked with him for, I don't know, two or three years. Yeah. Um, and I didn't even remember it at the time. Once he emailed it to me, I was like, Oh, yeah, you're right, I do remember doing that. But it was some one of those things that um I guess came to me in the moment we did it. Like it was kind of like a um like creative task that we did in session or started in session, he finished it out of session. Um, but he was like, Hey, that happiness book, I just want you to know that that was really meaningful. And I've referenced it multiple times since we stopped working, and this has kept me achieving my goals. And all that it was was I said, find a notebook that's bound, whether it's spiral bound or whatever. Um, and I want you just to write all the things that make you happy.

SPEAKER_03 56:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:19

And on a different page. Every page is something else that brings you joy.

SPEAKER_03 56:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:23

Um, it can be anything from your favorite meal to just time spent with certain people to something really elaborate, skydiving.

SPEAKER_03 56:31

I don't know, whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:32

Um, and I then I was reminded in that home, and this was a couple years ago now, um, how meaningful that is and how helpful that can be. And then it like refueled me, like, oh yeah, why am I not still doing that with other clients? Like, that's a really great task. I I employ the happiness jar, um, which I believe is really helpful.

SPEAKER_03 56:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:51

Wherein you have a jar, uh well, a container of any sorts, actually. That's the beauty of it. Make it whatever you want. Yeah. Um, but I tell folks, um, anytime something makes you happy, just jot it down, put the date on it, throw it in the jar, New Year's Eve, dump out the jar, and remind yourself of all of the things that made you happy throughout the year.

SPEAKER_03 57:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:11

Ritualistic. I'm really into rituals. I think that that can be so meaningful for so many folks.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

Yeah. And that is, you know, when we think of our brains as being plastic, right? As much as we can have some of these negative grooves carved into them, these practices that are ritualistic create new habits, create new ways of thinking. Uh, similarly, when I was running intensive outpatient groups for folks in in uh substance use recovery, the room was like, you know, like an office room. You know, you have like a weird fake ficus tree in the corner that looks like where did that even come from and who has it. And it would just sit there, and one day I proposed that we turn that into a gratitude tree. And I had all these little ornaments and things. And when it first started, you kind of saw the like, what this is but then it became such a necessity. People would come in excited to hang their gratitude on this tree and excited to see other people's gratitudes hanging on that tree.

SPEAKER_03 58:12

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 58:13

And so I'm a big believer like you in these these rituals, these things that give it agency and space in your life. And then it's it's not just this abstract of Stacy's giving me some advice, but these are the realities of living, the things that we can do that give a physical activity um reminder. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:39

I like that a lot.

SPEAKER_01 58:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:41

Yeah. So key points here, things to be doing.

SPEAKER_03 58:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:46

What we can take autonomy or we can identify as autonomous beings in helping us get out of burnout or preventing getting to burnout. Um, knowing what drains you and what fuels you, um, doing those things that fuel you as much as possible, offsetting the bad with good. So if you know you're teetering on that equation where you're like, man, the stress, the pressure is getting really high, I better do some of those other things that are gonna kind of bring me back up.

SPEAKER_03 59:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:11

Um, talk to somebody, yeah, friend, spouse, go to therapy. I will say make sure that if you're talking to a non-professional, make sure they have the capacity to take on whatever you're giving. So not being one of the people who, you know, trauma dumps or just like jumps into a conversation. Um, I'm, you know, this is a one-way street, I'm giving you all this information, do with it what you want, type of thing. Yeah, now it's really make sure that the person you're sharing with is um able to and willing to connect in that way. Yeah, yeah. Um so let's hear what what research says about um preventing or recovering from burnout. So um actually really similar to what we said. So number one, recognize when you are feeling off.

SPEAKER_03 59:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:58

Um first step is like, you know what they say. First step is knowing that you have a problem. Knowing it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:03

That's it, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

Just recognizing it. Um number two, reach out. They say to a medical professional first andor loved one. So we kind of hit that one. Um, finding ways to integrate self-care and stress management. Um, that kind of goes back to what fuels you, but I guess a little bit more specifically um managing your stress. So what fuels you may not always be the most de stressing in nature. It may feel good, but I'm gonna say that that is actually gonna be different than stress management at times. Yeah. So I would say let's let's separate those. Um so yeah, I think that we we're pretty spot on with what the research says about what do we do with burnout. Pretty great.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:46

That is yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:47

Okay, so let's let's pivot slightly into healing and hot takes. Um so we're gonna stay on the topic.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:55

Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:56

I wanna know do we think burnout is a society issue, an organization issue, or a personal issue?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:08

So I uh I think weirdly yes to all. Like it it right, because we we live in the ecosystem and I think that everything plays a part in it. And when I think about this question, I think about um responsibility, I guess, and power versus powerless, like our our ability to initiate change. Uh I mean it's no surprise that we live in a culture, while there are many positive things to how things have been structured for us as members of this culture, that we uh can oftentimes find ourselves working uh uh towards an end. You know, capitalism is built on profits and consumables and what you can produce. And sometimes your value comes in keeping your head down, powering through, being productive, being a valued member of society is connected to what is the greatest value of work, that you gotta be able to work. And if you feel bad, then we joke about it, like, well, just you know, eat some food or rub some dirt on it, get back in there.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:20

Sleep it off. Sleep it off. So I think societally, yeah, there's definitely a push that doesn't allow for off-ramps for things like burnout or other conditions that arise out of it. And we can fear like, well, if I do that, are they just gonna come in behind me and plug somebody else in there and now now I'm in a worse state because I tried to care for myself? And that can feel very powerless, right? Yeah. Because the only power we might feel like we have there is through voting politics, which we will not get into. Uh certainly organizationally, um, but I I guess where I'm gonna land without belaboring and going into my opinion on each one of those, is I think that I'm always a big believer in our individual responsibility to care for ourselves. Um, that it does not exist in a vacuum, that we have people in our lives and and around us that I think genuinely care. Yeah. And but I do think ultimately we have some responsibility to ourselves to acknowledge, to learn, to push through. And that is not me saying that it's a weakness if you don't recognize you don't have insight, or that it's a failing or a moral failing or anything like that. I just think that ultimately if we live in a in a systems and work in systems that are not gonna care for us, that's air quotes again, folks, that we have to learn to care for ourselves and we have to learn to care for each other. And that is our responsibility. So that's my hot take.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:56

Yeah, I totally agree. Um, I think the the concept of like recognizing, I see a lot where folks will recognize, whether this be like clients, personal life, just people that I interact with, where they recognize something that they want to change or something that they don't like or something that feels off.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:15

And then do nothing about it.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:17

So the first step being recognize, yes, that is the first step. But if that's the only step, you may as well not have recognized because honestly, it's gonna feel worse now. Yeah. And it's gonna feel worse for the people around you. Yeah. Because now you're the chronic complainer.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:29

You're this negative energy that is sucking the life out of things. So I'm sure people come to your mind where it's like, yeah, I notice when I am with blank, my only source of connection is to bitch about something.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:41

And it in the moment feels pretty good. Like we can we're like together on this. Yeah, you know. But then in hindsight, you're like, wait a second, actually, there was nothing positive that came out of that interaction. We just both, you know, angrily talked about something.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:57

Um, so yeah, I think the recognition is important. I think we have to do that. But I think without actual action steps, and not to say you have to figure it out. Yeah. Again, mental health professionals are there for a reason. Friends, family, so long as they have capacity.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:12

Um, but I think that um certainly the society side of things as well as organization does not help that. And um, I would argue organization is more impactful than society.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

Um, because I think that we can zoom out and mo most of us can say, yeah, you know, there's all these flaws and like very meta picture. Yeah, yeah. Um, we can kind of reconcile with that. Like, yeah, sometimes that just sucks, and I disagree with how that's going. Yeah. But then from the organization side of things, you know, it's like so comical to me when I see these workplace wellness initiatives where they get pizza on the third Thursday of the month. And I'm like, well, did you actually ask anybody on staff what they wanted? What was actually good for their mental health, de-stressing, made them feel valued or important. Actually, you know what they wanted. They wanted an outdoor lunch. They wanted to get out an hour early on Fridays. They wanted therapy dogs in the office. They wanted to have an ability to flex one day a week virtually.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:11

Yeah. That's what they wanted.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:13

And that is actually going to keep them retained at your organization. We're talking about sustainability and folks, you know, remaining employed. Um, talk to the people. What do they want? And so to me, the organization plays a big role because they have so much control over a situation and they could do such little things if they just talk to the people internally. Um, so yeah, so I I bounce back and forth between I would say, yes, individuals probably have the most responsibility.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:42

But we have to kind of take control of our own space and our own self. Um, and I think that uh toxic organizations can really ruin a person, even if they're coming in with a really strong sense of self.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:56

That's a good hot take. And great future episode to talk about organizational care for your work staff. And in in that light, you brought up some great points, and I certainly don't want to belabor it here, but you know, the idea of retention and attracting and having a healthy workforce. Um why are those self-care things why don't those outweigh some of the other systems will push onto people to the point of burnout. So great another episode there, Dr. Stacey, down the pipeline.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:33

Okay, so let's end with uh drop a joy and our call to action. So what what do we got? What's feeling joyful for you?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:40

What's feeling joyful for me? Uh you know what? I have been in a artist collaboration with uh with someone, and we are right at the tail end of having everything completed, and we'll be entering into the next phase. So the process of that has been a joy working with a fellow artist, collaborating, talking about how this our styles come together and how we're gonna present this work. So I'm that's been my joy.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:10

Nice. I love that. Um, my joy is I have currently have a service dog and training client out of the Cleveland area.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:17

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:18

And um I realize that they are just five minutes from Cleveland Bagel.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:23

Oh, snap. I love Cleveland Bagel are delicious.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:26

Cleveland bagel. So yeah, I've been um really really embracing my time headed up to Cleveland once a week because I I make sure that I stop and get myself a nice fresh baked bagel with a homemade schmear.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:41

Yes. Cleveland bagel, if you're hearing this, we love you. Give us some bagel.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:46

We love you so much. We love you so much.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:48

Stacy's carbo loading. For no good reason.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:53

Okay, so um, for all of you tablegoers, this week, um, we want you to check yourself and check others for burnout.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:00

Or for signs of impending burnout. Maybe we're not there yet. Hopefully we're not there. Yeah. Um, but just kind of do a self-check. Where do you stand? How are you feeling? Yeah. What can you do to kind of prevent yourself from getting to that place? Um and I would encourage you to start with showing appreciation for yourself, showing appreciation for those around you, um, showing appreciation. If you had a great experience with um a doctor's office, maybe the uh receptionist was super friendly. Yeah. Let them know because I'm sure they don't get a lot of compliments. So show your appreciation, check yourself for burnout, and we will see you next week on Welcome to the Table.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:36

Yes, we will. Thanks, friends.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:38

Thanks.