Episode 5: Lived Experience: Grief with Tammie Brenton

Grief is something we will all encounter, but no two experiences of grief are exactly alike. In this deeply personal and insightful episode, Dr. Stacey sits down with Tammie Brenton, a therapist with extensive training and experience in grief, trauma, and the intersection of the two: traumatic grief.

Tammie begins by sharing her own personal experience with traumatic grief, offering an honest look at the realities of navigating loss when grief is complicated by trauma. Together, they explore how traumatic experiences can shape the grieving process, why grief doesn't always follow the stages or timelines we expect, and how loss can affect us emotionally, physically, relationally, and even in the way we understand ourselves and the world around us.

The conversation then shifts from lived experience to professional insight as Tammie shares what she has learned through her work with individuals navigating grief and trauma. Dr. Stacey and Tammie discuss how therapists and loved ones can better support someone who is grieving, what helpful support can actually look like, and some of the things we often say or do with good intentions that may not be as helpful as we think.

This episode is a conversation about loss, resilience, healing, and the importance of making space for grief in all of its forms. Whether you've experienced a significant loss, support someone who is grieving, work in mental health, or simply want to better understand what grief can look like, this episode offers both professional perspective and the powerful reminder that sometimes the most meaningful support begins with simply being willing to sit with someone in their pain.

Pull up a chair... you're always welcome at the table.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to the table is the wellness podcast intended for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only. While the hosts are licensed professionals and guests may have professional experience and expertise in mental health, healthcare, or related fields, the information shared on this podcast is general in nature and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any medical or mental health condition.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Listening to this podcast does not establish a psychologist client, therapist client, physician patient, or any other professional relationship between you and the host, guests, producers, sponsors, or affiliated organizations. The content presented should not be considered medical, psychological, legal, or professional advice, and should not replace consultation with a qualified healthcare or mental health provider who is familiar with your individual circumstances.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

Some topics discussed may involve mental health challenges, trauma, grief, addiction, suicide, abuse, and other sensitive topics that may be emotionally difficult for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. We encourage you to engage with this content thoughtfully and seek professional support if you experience distress.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Any opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of the hosts, podcast producers, sponsors, or affiliated organizations.

SPEAKER_03 1:26

By listening to this podcast, you acknowledge and agree that neither the hosts, guests, producers, nor affiliated organizations assume responsibility or liability for any decisions, actions, or outcomes resulting from the use or interpretation of information discussed on this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

If you are experiencing a mental health crisis, having thoughts of harming yourself or others, or need immediate assistance, call or text 988 to reach the suicide and crisis lifeline. Call 911 or contact your local emergency services.

SPEAKER_03 2:02

We're so glad you're here. Pull up a chair and welcome to the table. Hello, Tammy Brenton. Welcome to the table. Hello, I am so excited to be here today. Yay, you're our first lived experienced guest. Um, so we have um quite uh an episode in store here. But before we dig into the tea, so to speak, let's talk about what we're drinking, which is tea.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

Yes, I brought some perfectly mint tea soothing to my throat, which it's a little scratchy right now.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

Okay, I'm drinking blackberry citrus plus zinc, um, as if it were cold and flu season. It's not, but I'm gonna just really ramp up my immune system while I have the opportunity. So drinking tea today, let's talk about the table. We're at a square table, which we've not yet been at. Um, and the material, like fake wood laminate vibe, perhaps, with a steel center holding it all together. Feels sturdy. Feels sturdy. I do fear that I will be tapping on the table at some point. So I'm gonna refrain as much as possible. Okay, so what's going on? Tell me one thing about your week to warm us up.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

Oh, uh one thing about my week. Um, it's only what? Monday. So it seems like it's already been a whole week. Um it's been busy um doing all the summer things, getting kids here and there to practice, and um just still enjoying summer. Big summer people. Yes. Hot temps, yes, humidity, give me all of it.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

All of it. Yep, I'm with you. That's new to me in the past couple years. I used to be like not a big summer gal. And um, as time has gone on, the older I've gotten, the more I want the hot weather, I want the sunshine. Um, so I'm with you. I'm embracing it while we can. Okay, so let's get into our topic, um, which is going to be grief. Tammy is going to give us um some background on herself and how grief has made its way into her life. Um, but before we get into the depths of grief, let's just talk about who Tammy is now, present day. Um, just super base level. What do you do? What do you enjoy doing? Good weather is helpful. So I'm assuming you're outside a lot. What else?

SPEAKER_02 4:32

Yes, outside as much as possible. What do um I enjoy doing? Well, I enjoy running. However, that's kind of on pause right now. Um I enjoy walking barefoot in the grass. I enjoy the slow things in life, really, like sunrise, sunset, and this is the season to get out and do all of that. Um love spending time with family and friends and um healthy food. I love hummus. And um, what do I do? I am a wife, mother, and grandmother, and currently have my two grandchildren in my home. And so that's been there's a lot of noise in my home, which is exciting and also different, but loving that. And also I work at with um Stacy at Stay Wellness, and I'm a therapist and love that, and also hold grief online workshops and retreats as well.

SPEAKER_03 5:35

Yeah. Okay, so we're gonna get back to you in present day as we move along. I want to go backwards and cue you into your big grief story. And I think what we're really gonna get into is realizing that grief is not one specific thing, it's not just um loss of a loved one. There's many other aspects of grief, but thinking about your big grief, I'm gonna cue you into being able to tell your story. Um, and then I'll kind of give you a little bit more insight as we go and prompt you into different topics.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

Yeah, so my initiation into grief was traumatic, um, unexpected, um, like a lot of people, and what most of our culture believes that grief is, has a voice for is um loss. So um my daughter Maddie, um, I always like to start with who she was before the last four years, because sometimes that can get like highlighted in an exclamation point, and she was so much more than that, although there were some really extraordinary moments in even the hardest shattering. Um, but Maddie is my firstborn, so she made me a mother, and um she was loyal and passionate and competitive, and she loved to laugh. We both share that. Um, as I get into her story, um we spent a lot of time in hospitals and emergency rooms um through her illness, and we would still laugh. Like if we needed to, like she'd be so sick and we'd have on the office or friends or something that just made us laugh. Um, so we shared that, and um, most of all, she loved her family, and um she is um the strongest person I've ever known. Um and so um in 2014, Maddie lived in California. She was expecting her second child, Brenton, and she was having um some problems with breathing and passing out. And the doctors, and we all thought, you know, she's having a big baby, which she did. He was um 10 pounds. And holy cow! Yeah. Didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, he was 10 pounds. Oh my god, big boy. So we thought, yep, that's what it is. Um, however, after having Brenton, she did not get better. Actually, things got worse, and it was a long year of misdiagnosis and really advocating so hard for the medical doctors to listen that something was seriously wrong. Um, she had her first surgery in 2015. Um, they biopsied her lungs um through x-rays and scans. They were like, something is wrong with her lungs. And so they went in to check that out. And um, that was the first time I was given just earth-shattering news. Um, I remember a doctor coming, the surgeon coming out. We weren't still in California at a hospital there, and just kind of thrusting the pictures of her lungs in my hands and saying that um if she didn't have a lung transplant in two years, she would die. And um there was nobody there. I just remember being alone and holding those and um wishing that somebody would come out and help me in that moment. Um and so we finally got her back to Ohio to the Cleveland Clinic, um, to the um pulmonary unit there. And we did receive that double lung transplant um April 28th of 2017. And um I remember that night so well when she got the call that it was so hard even in that moment for her to um like she could say yes or she could pass. And um, we knew that it those lungs came from a 16-year-old girl. And um we were so grateful in that moment, and also we mourned and grieved for that family. And so on April 28th, we got this beautiful miracle, and it was such a long, hard process of her coming back to health, but she was healthy again, and she started to do the things that she always wanted to do, to be the mom that she wanted to be. Um, she enrolled in school again to be a respiratory therapist, and then she started, her health started to decline, and we just kept thinking she was getting like a virus or something. So we stepped up like this is all before COVID, right? And so we are like the kids have to shower and change their clothes after coming home. We had those automatic hand sanitizers everywhere. We were wearing masks before that was a thing. And um, but on October 30th, she had had a six-week stay in the hospital, which was the longest she had ever been in, which we always said Maddie was institutionally challenged. So that was really hard for her to be in the hospital that long. Um, and the doctors came in on and said that there was nothing else that they could do, and she needed to move to hospice and that we had months, but in reality, we had three days. So on November 2nd, um we laid in bed with her. Um, as a family, we were around her, and then um, as everybody cleared out of the room, we laid in bed with her, and it just held her for the last time here.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

And through that process, you know, you're speaking to things that you're experiencing as a mother, you're speaking to things that you're experiencing as a human, watching someone else suffer, um, and also the shock. So when you talk about grief, you're talking not just about the loss itself, but you mentioned, you know, things being traumatic. So can you kind of break down that wall or break down kind of that meaning of like traumatic grief and how that is different than traditional grief? Because what you're describing is clearly traumatic grief.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

Yes, and that's such an important distinction to make because in our culture we think you know, grief is like sadness and it's crying. And um at some point things get better and you move on and back into life. And but when you add the trauma piece, and that's what I didn't understand at the time, what was happening, it was like a full like physical experience. Um so I felt things so physically, the brain fog was awful. Um just like I lost 20 pounds in um probably a month. Um, couldn't eat. And all the while being like I have her two little ones, I have my son and my husband, and how do we move on? And so when somebody was able to name that for me, actually I found a book, um, it made so much more sense that somebody could put language to what I was actually feeling, that I wasn't broken um or crazy. Um, but this was trauma.

SPEAKER_03 13:38

Yeah, and understanding that trauma for yourself as well as understanding the grief, like just, you know, it's not uh, you know, in six months now the grief is is moving to the next stage, right? So we know that there's not necessarily a linear process through grief. So can you speak to what your understanding of your own grief looked like and some of the ways that you moved through those various stages of grief?

SPEAKER_02 14:01

Yes. So I mean, I think we're pretty well educated that those five stages we all talk about really um are not linear at all. And not necessarily that we're going to even move through those, although I wanted it to look like that. Um, because I've always been a person that like you do this and this, and then you get this. So I was really like, okay, well, if this is what it like, I was the type of person was like, if I have to go through grief, then I'm just gonna rush through it. Like I will almost like if grief was the fire, I would just throw myself on it and do it because I just wanted it to be over. And as um I learned reading um the book by Dr. Joanne Cachitore. The book Bearing the Unbearable, somebody gave that to me, and it is a book about child loss, and I remember I couldn't put it down, and that is definitely a book that I would have never been able to read um before this. And it just like for once I felt seen and heard, and everything made sense. And um, Dr. Cachatori also has a care farm in Arizona, and um it has rescue animals, and it is a place for parents that um have lost a child. And so my family went there seven months later, and it that really started the journey of okay, grief and I like we got to get to know each other because we're in this for life. I will grieve Maddie for as long as I love her, and that's the rest of my life. So, and the beginning, probably to get better back to your question, it was a lot of just trying to cope in any way I can. In the beginning, grief can feel like a free fall and there's no bottom. So um I did have some good community support and leaning into that, but then the harder work really was what I had to do on my own and um with um support from other moms and um Dr. Cachatory.

SPEAKER_03 16:24

So, question in that process Do you feel like it is necessary to understand your grief before being able to work with it and move through it? Or is there some ability for folks to grieve in a way where they're not even consciously understanding what their grief is holding for them?

SPEAKER_02 16:45

So I believe that, well, grief is like life, it's an experience. So you just experience it and it evolves with you. Where I started and where I am now are very different. And I suspect as I continue on that it will continue to evolve with me.

SPEAKER_03 17:05

Yeah. And so when you're thinking about folks like working to understand their grief, if you could give them a piece of advice, what would that be?

SPEAKER_02 17:14

To understand, um, like to do the education of like what physically is going on, or like the big thing when people come to me is like I feel like I'm going crazy and the whole brain fog of grief and some of those things, like to really get in, like those are the basics of grief that we don't ever hear about. And so educating yourself on that. So just looking at like what is different right now and what am I feeling, and being that that is grief, that is grief, and also that grief is love. We don't grieve anything that's outside of our circle of worth, right? So whether it is a person or another grief, like it's something that's dear to us, or we wouldn't grieve it. And really re-leaning into that as we can. Um, I would also suggest first steps is like really knowing your nervous system, because we can't just go into something um and lean into something that we haven't built the capacity for. So slowly building the capacity for the harder things.

SPEAKER_03 18:29

And you mentioned like support. Um, who is who can we lean into? Um, and who, whether that be not necessarily individuals, but aspects of society, let's say, might not be so supportive when we're looking to tend to our grief.

unknown 18:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

So community is so important and our support system is really important. However, many of us, until we've gone through it, have not built that capacity to be with hard things. Um I think that, you know, we know that families and relationships all revolve in systems, right? And so sometimes those systems haven't built the capacity to support you in the way that you need. Um, I learned that some people were good for practical support. Like I could give them this to do. And even though I wanted them so desperately to show up emotionally, that wasn't um what they had, what they could give. And so I did, I have a dear friend. Like she showed up, and sometimes you're surprised, like she had never had a loss like this, but she read the books that I was reading and and she really stepped up into that. Um, a therapist, if a therapist has good grief background can be helpful. It's really finding like that person that can witness with compassion without trying to fix it, because that's what we do. So um, yeah, looking at your support system and just figuring out like what can this person be there for me and what way, and knowing that you need a deeper witness. And so that may be somebody that's outside of your family or support and looking for that and can be online, it can be grief groups, things like that.

SPEAKER_03 20:25

Yeah. And if an individual is looking to be that support for somebody else, what are things that they should be doing and should be tending to? And also what are some like do not do things on that list?

SPEAKER_02 20:38

Yeah. So if you are supporting someone that is in grief, it's really, I was talking about with my friend who I was just talking about, and we were talking about how she showed up for me. And I'm like that had to be so hard for her to do. And she said yes, because I had to do the opposite of everything I had learned to do. I had to be slow and I had to be quiet, and I couldn't fix it, and I had to just witness your grief, and that was hard. And then um, but practical things is you know, we hear people say, like, if you need anything, let me know. And that is so well-meaning, but that really puts the burden back on the griever, like, figure this out, and we just don't know. So things like, hey, I'm at the store, and can I get you some milk or bread? Or I'd like to order dinner, can I give you get you Mexican or Italian? Like little choices like this or this. So the brain doesn't have to work any harder. Um, it can even look like just a text that says no need to reply, but you know, I'm thinking of you. And so just giving lots of space, consistent check ins are important. So deep listening. Consistent check-ins and knowing that times on the calendar, like giving that permission. So, like if it's Mother's Day, like I or you know, I need more than a happy Mother's Day, it is both happy and it is also holds deep pain. And both are allowed to be there. But typically in my experience, I need permission because otherwise I felt like I didn't want to ruin everybody else's day. But when somebody allowed me to have both, it really softened the sorrowful part of it.

SPEAKER_03 22:35

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm thinking about some common phrases that I know really like grind my gears when I'm working with folks with grief, which is um, well, we know they're in a better place. Or um they're not suffering anymore. So somehow, like the individual, again, they mean well, but what that is doing then is putting on to them this idea that um, so it's it's okay now. Like you can move on from your grief. Let's let's keep it moving kind of vibe. Um, so I'm wondering if you experienced any of that throughout your process. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Yes, yes, yes. Um, and that's I learned that that's a bypass, right? So, and that says more about the person that's saying it, that they feel so awkward and it's easier to say that because yes, did people say, well, she's not suffering, she's in a better place? And I was like, a better place? Like she has two children. Like, how is that better? And um, in the beginning it was really hurtful, but as I did my grief journey, a lot more grace for those people, just knowing that number one, that's what that's so automatic. You know, like this is just what you say, and it's supposed to be better. And it's like giving somebody a hot stone they didn't ask for, and now you have to hold it until they walk away.

SPEAKER_03 23:56

Yeah. Can you speak to um some of your like really big changes over time? So you talked a little bit about um Dr. Joe and the care farm um and kind of like that process.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

So big changes is um I started to realize that um grief is just love. And then as I realized that that to love Maddie fully meant I would grieve her fully. I stopped resisting. And we know that resistance is where the suffering is. So I started to get to know my grief. I started to understand my own nervous system and what I could do to help in that. Um and then just really I Dr. Joe was so good about like do your own work first, um, not to try to make meaning first, which is what we like to jump to, um, but do your own work first. And then out of that came this passion, how do I help other people? Like in the places that I really needed somebody and there was nobody there, like I want to be that person for them. Um, what hasn't changed is this continuing bond with Maddie and that I am still her mom and I still connect with her in other ways and I still love her completely. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:36

And I think like that concept is so often missed when we're looking into grief. Like I think when people are talking about, you know, the passing of a loved one, again, like third-party bird's eye view, people are describing one's process of grief. And I think it's never talked about this like lifelong journey. People may say, I will continue to grieve, or you know, I will move through the stages of grief endlessly, so to speak. Um, but I think like leaning into like this love, this like intense love. And because of the intense love, the intense grief that goes with it, this kind of dichotomy of the beauty and the sorrow simultaneously, which you spoke about with regards to Mother's Day. Um, but I think this this is something that we can translate into other arenas too, thinking about um we can be suffering and we can also be living our life in a different way. And so you are a great example of that. So you pivoted when this was all going on, what was your background? What was your career? Um, and how did that change um on the other side of this?

SPEAKER_02 26:38

So when all of this started, I worked for um the Perkins Public School System, had such a great support. Um, they were really cheered. That's where Maddie um graduated from, and they really cheered us on, and they were great support. And um and then I just knew that that wasn't my place anymore. There was something bigger, and something that you said, Stacey, really just like I know I need to say this, that Maddie's motto during her um time for transplant and really her life motto, and she lived it so beautifully and continues to inspire me is life doesn't have to be perfect to be beautiful, and that is what like continues to just fuel everything that I do. Um, and so I was at the schools and things were wonderful and things were easy, but I just really felt like there was and and meaningful too, but that there was this um this bigger purpose now that I was supposed to switch paths. And so yeah, at age 50, I said, yeah, I should go back and get my master's in social work, and I did, and like what I am doing now helping people with trauma and grief is just really um it's not in spite of my grief, but because of my grief, and it is um I had somebody say to me the other um not long ago that like you turned your pain into purpose, and that really just felt icky to me, and I didn't know why. And then I really sat with that and I realized because I didn't turn my pain into anything, um, along with my pain, I have this purpose.

SPEAKER_03 28:35

Yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah, and I think it's um like so admirable. I'm like thinking selfishly about myself, and I don't know that I could put myself into like throw myself into the fire, as you said, going into the the path on a day-to-day basis that you came out of. Um and what I know is people love and appreciate that so much. So we know about it in the grief community, the addiction community. Um, obviously, we can't expect every provider to have experienced what every client has experienced. And there's something so beautiful about being able to connect with a provider who has some lived experience. And I think that um, again, not that you can't be an amazing grief therapist without having your own big traumatic grief, but I think there's something that's so um like magnetic and beautiful about that process that I always say anybody who has Tammy as a therapist is so lucky. And I would, you know, selfishly, I I love her as a friend. And I'm like, man, if I could have her as my therapist, like my all my problems would be solved. So in thinking about that, let's think about like day-to-day, what types of um clients are you working with, um, and maybe a little bit of background into your continued. So you didn't just go and get your master's um to become a social worker. You've done all of these other external trainings and certifications to be really, really well qualified to handle folks um coming in with intense grief and trauma. And so I'd like to hear a little bit about that too.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

Yes. So since I was a little later in life than most people graduating with their masters, I was like, I just want to do all the things right now and hit the ground running. And I knew that I couldn't only support people out of my own experience. That wasn't going to work. So I started with like nervous system certification, which I love and comes into every session almost of like just knowing your nervous system, how do we support that, knowing that there's that we have options and um the ways that we can show up and we can work with that. I did compassionate bereavement certification and the advanced um with Dr. Cachitory there in Arizona, um, which was really important. And then I just continue, I've done EMDR um training now, and I just continue to put all the things in my toolbox. Sometimes I have to tell myself to stop. Um, because I would just keep learning. I love to learn and I love to learn things that will help other people. But those were my big ones: nervous system, um, certification, the compassionate bereavement certification, and then EMDR training.

SPEAKER_03 31:21

Yeah. And if you continued with all these trainings, you wouldn't have enough space to hold all of your paper copy PowerPoints and books that you have attached to everything as hard copy folks, we tend to stack up all of those things.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

Yes, the hard copy.

SPEAKER_03 31:36

Sorry, Trees. It's so tough. Just like it's so nice to have something in your hand to just reference back and I'll save a document and I will never go back. But if there's a book on my shelf or if there's a uh printout that I put in a file somewhere, I will sum through there. I'm not reading it cover to cover by any means, but I will find the thing that I was looking for and extract those details. So I'm with you on that. Um, in your work with people, a question that I think is worth asking: are you comfortable andor do you find it appropriate to cry in session with clients?

SPEAKER_02 32:13

So yes, I am comfortable. Um it really depends on my clients. Um because I've had some clients come in with traumatic grief stories and say that they went to a therapist and the therapist cried harder than they did. So that is kind of like that's the line, right? So I may have some tears or tears in my eyes, but I'm holding that space, not falling into what they are experiencing. Um, I'm that anchor in the moment that they can cry. So, yes, is it okay? Um, am I ever sobbing? Absolutely not. So um knowing your client well and um, you know, or a friend or a loved one, definitely different with a friend, but not crying harder than they are.

SPEAKER_03 33:07

Yeah. Has that been something? So alternatively, have you experienced um friends, family, and or clients who have said, I actually appreciate that you showed emotion during this time. Um, I felt connected to you in, you know, I was crying, I was telling you the story, you were having an emotional experience as well. Have you experienced that?

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Yes, and I know what it meant also for people to cry with me. And at the care farm, there's this beautiful plaque that says, you may forget who you laugh with, but you will never forget who you cry with. And whoa. Yeah. So yes, tears are appropriate, tears are beautiful, and just another way to show that you care. Um, they show up differently depending which role I'm in.

SPEAKER_03 33:55

Yeah, and I think we hear often, um, you know, like, okay, I'll grab you a tissue, or just the act of somebody grabbing a tissue. Um, or, you know, it's okay, you don't have to cry, or somebody crying and saying, I'm so sorry. Like, how do we respond to something like that?

SPEAKER_02 34:12

Yes. Um, yeah, so I mean, we're trained not to, I mean, the tissues are there, but we don't push them over, right? Um like no, no. And do people apologize for crying even in session? Yes. And of course, I always tell them that tears are welcome. And I also explain that tears are like our first cry for help. Like it's so appropriate. And that just means that you need help. And so tears were just information, and there's no need, like we have really shut that form of communication down, even in younger children, right? Um, so yeah, tears are. I have uh a bereaved mom, and she'll like call me and like leave our little podcast, you know, that we do on the voice next. And it's always I know she's gonna be crying, and then I will cry, and then I will, you know, to give one back to her, and I'm in tears, and we say um tears are our happy place. So sometimes that is because you cry and then you laugh, right?

SPEAKER_03 35:20

Yeah, yeah, that's so true. Yeah, I think um just society as a whole is not very grief positive. Um, so whether that's crying or just, you know, how much time do you get off work? Not very much.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

No.

SPEAKER_03 35:32

Um and how much are you only allowed versus, you know, what should you take off work? Um, again, trying to put this very subjective, um, horrible experience into this objectified X amount of time and then move on and and keep going. Um, and I think that that says so much about um one, the work that we do and how we can, you know, help kind of change that narrative for our clients, but it says so much about our society and where we're at. It's really, really sad to see the um brushing away or like tampering down of the grief experiences and crying being a good example of that too.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Yes. Our our culture is really set on fixing healing and all the fast things in life. So, and the crying takes too long. So, um, and we're just uncomfortable with it. So when we begin to be comfortable with it, it's like it's a sacred honor to be in the presence of somebody's tears that they were vulnerable enough to show that part of them.

SPEAKER_03 36:37

Yeah, a phrase that sticks with me that a client said is crying is so embarrassing. And I just want to like wipe it off and keep it moving. And that crushed me. Um, I'm like, wow, we have to approach this from a totally different angle. And um, it's not just how are you right now in this moment, but how are we going to move throughout and be comfortable with the grief? Um, it's never going to feel good. And, you know, as uh a phrase that you've used is kind of befriend your nervous system and befriend your grief and kind of walk alongside it rather than shoving it away and hoping it never returns.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

Yeah, is that befriending or getting to know your grief? Because otherwise it's hijacking you around every corner, is what I felt like. And that's why just getting to know it, knowing when it's showing up, why it's showing up, and this is what I do when it does show up.

SPEAKER_03 37:30

Yeah. And absolutely. So let's shift and give a little bit of insight into some things that I think are really applicable, um, both in the therapeutic realm as well as just day-to-day life. And I think a really great resource that I can thank Tammy for providing way back early on in our work together is the five gates of grief. And I think recognizing, I'll kind of let you explain and give a little bit more insight, but the big thing that I want to highlight as Tammy is speaking is grief is not just this one avenue that is not just this one arena of losing a loved one.

SPEAKER_02 38:09

Yeah. So Francis Weller, we can thank him for that. His book called The Wild Edge of Sorrow. And he has the five gates of grief. I think they have added a few more onto there. But yeah, that gate, that grief is actually, I believe, present in all of our lives, just in different ways. And we haven't given it that name or given it that space or the community to actually um hold it. And so gate one is the one that we know everything we love, we will lose. So we lose our people, we lose our pets, those things we are very um aware of that, although we still don't talk about it until you get there and then you figure it out for yourself. Um the second gate, which is so important and um is the places that have not known love. So when we have clients or people come in that have that deep shame and things like that, things that they've hidden away because are not um just acceptable in society, or they haven't been able they can't bring that part out because they're trying to belong into something or fit in. And so those places that have never known love um is a deep, deep grief. And um, being able to name that for somebody and to explore that is um quite um pivotal in their relationship with grief and um and the healing of that. The medicine for that is self-compassion and um which we don't do real well in our world, in our culture either. Um, the third gate is the sorrows of the world, and that one is so evident in like turning on the news and just everything that's going on. And again, like we can become numb to it, but then there's no change. And yet we need a community to grieve that because to grieve the sorrows of the world on our own is so much. Um, but so we have a choice to numb it, or do we grieve it and finding community to do that? Um the gate four is what we expected and did not receive. So some people that that gate is so deep, like we didn't get attunement or um the nurturing that we needed. And again, it goes so unspoken and unnoticed because there's not an event, right? Yeah. And there's nothing that was taken away. It's just we didn't receive it. And yet it was our right as humans to receive that. And we didn't receive it.

SPEAKER_03 40:57

Yeah, gate four is one that I I touch on so frequently in therapy. Um, when folks come in not thinking that we're doing grief work, and I'm like, surprise, we're doing grief work.

SPEAKER_02 41:08

Yes, yes. It all comes back to this. Like, if they were gonna give you any textbook in school, you know, for our work, it would be the wild edge of sorrow. So um, and then the fifth gate is ancestral grief. So um we know this more like, you know, if we think about the um the people like the lineage of like the Holocaust survivors and things like that. And so we talk about it in that way. And Francis Weller is really big on ancestor work, but like we can hold grief that doesn't really belong to us, but it's just been transferred generation to generation. And um, so yeah, it's so much more than gate one of loss of a person. And although I will say that was my initiation into grief, I found myself at so many of the other gates. And I will also say that that is like I feel like I know my belt myself better than ever because I've explored all of that. And um, and I will also say with all of the grief, so it just seems like it's all heavy, but intertwined with that is gratitude and joy. Like they don't cancel each other out. There's so much that grief and love and joy and gratitude is so connected, and so it's so much more than we think it is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:39

Yeah. A phrase that comes up for me that I think puzzles folks when they initially hear it is I always say almost everything, because I've yet to find there is an exception to this, I'm sure. But almost everything can be conceptualized through either a grief pathway or an addiction pathway. And I don't mean hard drugs necessarily, but um just recognizing that, you know, either we're on the end of the spectrum where we're mourning something or we're yearning for something. And so I think if we look at that dichotomy, people might say, well, I'm not really yearning anything. Why am I, why am I feeling this? Okay, let's flip to the other side then. Is there suffering? Is there sorrow? Is there um like mourning the loss of something, even if it's not a loved one, even if it's um the loss of a job, that a job change can be grief, even if it's a promotion or it's you know, on paper a better situation than we were in before, we can still mourn the changes that occur. Um, so that's kind of a an anecdote that I tend to pop in. And initially, when I say it, people are typically like, I don't follow. And then as we get talking about it, or maybe a session or two later, folks will bring it back up and be like, hey, actually, like, let's go back to that concept because I'm feeling both. Like in this part of my life, I see it through an addiction pathway, or through this part of my life, I see it through a grief pathway. Um, so I think again, grief is coming into play so much more than we think it is. That is so good. That is really good. So I want to um offer some insight um and like tell folks where they can connect with you via email, perhaps. And I really want you to talk about the foundation. So could you share some information about the foundation and how to connect with Tammy?

SPEAKER_02 44:30

Yeah, so um how to connect with me is through the Stay Wellness page, um, stay wellness.org. And also my email is on that. Um the foundation, the Madison Brenton Foundation. Um one thing that when you've lost someone, you just want to hear their name over and over, and people stop saying it. So that's why we just name the foundation her name. And so the Madison Brenton Foundation was born out of obviously our love for Maddie and also seeing what she went through and how hard it was to get help and how hard it was to navigate a system when you are exhausted just trying to live. And um, Maddie had her dad and I to help her, but so many people don't have that. And when you are thrust into that world, and then you see people that are fighting cancer and losing their home, and it is just that's a whole nother grief gate there, that sorrow of the world, right? Like, like that can even happen. And so we partner with um the Piggyback Foundation out of Norwalk, Cancer Services, and um just recently started partnering with serving our seniors in Erie County. And so our applications go through there because we're all volunteers and we all have jobs and we work. Um so we can't vet everything, but um, they send us on the applications. So people that have um it doesn't have to be, they have an illness or something that um has came up and um they need help. So like most recently we helped a mom, a single mom in Ottawa County that had to have back surgery and could not pay her rent. Um, she had help for anything, everything else, but there was this gap, and there's many gaps in our systems that she couldn't pay her rent. And so we did that. So um, like I said, we partner with those people and they vet our um the applications and then they forward those to us. And um so yeah, we actually have in the two years we've been going, um, we've given out over fifty thousand dollars in support for families that need it.

SPEAKER_03 46:56

That's amazing. Amazing. Um, is there any so direct connection goes through these other avenues, right? There's no direct connection to Madison Bretton Foundation, is that right?

SPEAKER_02 47:08

Um she has it. There is a Facebook page and um a website, which is just Madison Brenton Foundation.org. Um so, but yeah, through that, because we can't vet everything. Yeah. And it's such a lengthy process. And because we do have some donors, we need to make sure we're doing everything above the board and with integrity. So that's how we do that.

SPEAKER_03 47:30

Yeah, absolutely. So uh madisonbrenton.org. Madison Brenton Foundation.org. Yes. You're interested in getting connected um or supporting the foundation. Um okay, so let's pivot um into our segment, Healing and Hot Takes. We're gonna keep it grief-centered um and talk about crying. True or false, we should cry more. Definitely true.

SPEAKER_02 48:01

And don't even use a Kleenex, like just use your hand, get it messy.

SPEAKER_03 48:06

Oh, for some context, as we were walking in here, um, I made mention of keeping it together, which uh goes against everything that Tammy just said. Um, because every time I hear Tammy tell the story, even though I know what the end result is, I've heard the details, I will tear up every single time. Um, so I'm like consciously like, no, I'm allowed to cry. It's okay, like walking myself through that. Um, and also like keeping it together because I don't want to, you know, listeners to be hearing my sniffles or, you know, wiping the snot off my face. Um, so yeah, so we should cry more. How can we make that uh a reality? And what I I don't mean like make yourself cry more, but how can we actually be accepting of the tears?

SPEAKER_02 48:50

Oh, that's a good question. Um first of all, just like you're not crying about something that is outside of your worth, your circle of worth. And so just noting that, like sometimes that's the greatest praise, right? Like you love somebody or something has happened and you're hurting for somebody. And what a tender way to show it. Um it takes a lot of vulnerability. And um it used to be all I did was cry, and I did get tired of that, I will say that. Um sometimes I have to look at pictures and make myself cry now or listen to a great song because I'm like, I just need to cry. Um but yeah, so um maybe you just notice that it's coming up and be be curious about why it's there before we try to shut it down and then just see the beauty of it. Where's the best place to cry? I was gonna say in the shower, sometimes that is a good place for me to cry when it's like an ugly, ugly cry. Um outside in nature, it's a good place to cry with a dog on your lap.

SPEAKER_03 50:09

Yeah, that's true. So having uh be witnessed by a dog, but not a human. I don't need any humans to be seeing this, but the dog can very much be a part of this. I love it. Yeah, I agree. I um I think we should cry more. Here's the thing: if we, if we're more accepting of crying, then people will share their emotions more and it will kind of be this like exponential benefit to society and to individuals. The problem is, you know, who's gonna start that trend? Like who's gonna be the first one that's like, I'm totally okay, let's just cry it out. Um yeah, I don't know. Are you is there ever an instance where you find yourself tearing up and you are still trying to like stop the tears?

SPEAKER_02 50:52

Oh, of course, because that's so ingrained in me. So ingrained. And then also just being um very aware of the audience and is it appropriate? Um, but I don't know. I think, Stacy, we get those t-shirts that say like crying is my happy place. And we just start wearing those. Maybe like one of those seven dwarves were there, was there a cry or no? I think he was just like sneezy or something.

SPEAKER_03 51:18

Sad.

SPEAKER_02 51:18

Was there a sad one? I don't know. I don't know. I don't watch movies. There should be, there should be, there should be a a one of those. It just should be like grief.

SPEAKER_03 51:27

Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think the other saying um is just like we should cry. Yeah, just like let it happen. Let's cry more. Okay, I'm taking notes for myself because I gotta, I gotta be conscious of that. So um, to kind of wrap this up, some key takeaways that I think are really important um that have been shared today. One, tend to your grief, you know, explore it, um, let it be a part of your world. Um, the intention isn't to uh push it aside and move past it, but rather kind of go through it and be a part of your journey. Um, the other thing, getting support for your grief, so being around the right people, um, as well as professionals. Uh, so finding a professional that can hold space for grief, who is trained in grief and comfortable with that can be a great option as well. And then I think the other thing is recognizing that grief is not just the loss of somebody or someone or something. It is also, you know, the other four gates are very um a part, very much a part of our life. And I am wondering if there's even a way to exclusively be in one gate of grief. I almost argue that usually there's multiple gates happening simultaneously, which I think makes it more challenging to figure out like where is this actually coming from? I think exploring all the gates, even if you're really focusing in on that one gate that you're identifying as loss can be really helpful too.

SPEAKER_02 52:56

Absolutely. I agree with that. That rarely is it one. I mean, maybe one is taking center stage, but there's so much more, and that's what the grief work does. This is just untangles that and is really beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 53:13

Yeah. So not to switch topics because it's uncomfortable to talk about sadness and grief, because it's not. That's what we're here for, and we're embracing the grief. However, we do end every episode with a drop of joy because that is just kind of a part of our motto. So if you're comfortable sharing a drop of joy for you personally, whether that's something that's happening right now or has recently happened or is on the horizon, something that just is bringing you life right now. Could you share?

SPEAKER_02 53:42

Yeah. So what is bringing me life right now is actually in the same thread because last night I did an online grief groundwork um Zoom call with, and we had 10 people show up. And so there just really seems to be more of an awareness with grief, and that is just really driving me that passion to change the narrative of grief for people. And so it has really been alive for me right now. This is another opportunity. I have another one in August that's online and um an in day and in person in October. And so that is just really, yeah, that is my drop of joy that last night there were 10 people online, and I just feel I just know that we made this like ripple into this greater grief work that I just I love it.

SPEAKER_03 54:42

Yeah. And that people are wanting to be a part of the grief work. I think that's so lovely. Yeah. Um, well, I will say my drop of joy is that you're here, that we are changing the landscape of the um of the podcast here to kind of go go deep and go into. I know we're kind of, you know, a lot of jokes and being silly on here a lot, but I think it's also important to kind of show the depths of what people are experiencing and for you being so vulnerable to share your story and also offer insights into what people can do to be helpful in their own lives or for those around them. So thank you so much. This was wonderful. Um, for the listeners out there, you're tasked, um, you're tasked with tending to grief and um being supportive for those around you who might be going through grief. And don't tell them that their loved one is in a better place because not appropriate. No, no, please don't. All right. Uh, we will see you next time, table goers. Thanks for listening. Thank you.