Beyond the "Fix": Intuitive Movement, Radical Acceptance, and the Terms of Healing with Sherry Brourman

What happens when we stop trying to "fix" our bodies and instead learn to negotiate our own terms of healing?

In this episode of This is Yoga Therapy, host Michele Lawrence sits down with legendary movement educator, physical therapist, and yoga therapist Sherry Brourman, PT, C-IAYT. With an astonishing 53 years of clinical experience, Sherry shares her profound evolution from the rigid, biomechanical silos of 1970s physical therapy into the compassionate, integrated world of modern pain science and yoga therapy.

Diving into her recent book, From Bodily Knowledge to Intuitive Movement: Where Physical Therapy, Yoga Therapy and Pain Science Meet, Sherry explains why our personal psycho-social stories shape how we move far more than simple biology. Together, Michele and Sherry discuss the myth of "perfect alignment," how moving by feel is an act of radical self-love, and why meeting clients exactly where they are already functioning well shifts the entire power dynamic of therapeutic care. 

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

• Sherry’s Website: SherryBrourman.com (Explore her gait clinics, continuing education, and private consultations)
• Featured Book: From Bodily Knowledge to Intuitive Movement: Where Physical Therapy, Yoga Therapy and Pain Science Meet by Sherry Brourman (Published by Singing Dragon)
• Sherry’s Classic Text: Walk Yourself Well (Hyperion)

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Welcome to This Is Yoga Therapy. I'm your host, Michelle Lawrence. Join me as we venture beyond the mat into the fascinating intersections of yoga and health. Each episode brings you candid conversations with the visionary leaders and practitioners who are truly shaping this field, sharing their stories, insights, and the profound impact of yoga therapy in action. Hey, it's Michelle. Before we get into today's episode, I just wanted to bring up one thing. If you're enjoying this is yoga therapy, the best way to support the show is to like, subscribe, and review. Whether you're watching it on YouTube or listening on your commute, your engagement really helps us scale. So please take 10 seconds to hit that subscribe button or leave a review. It really makes a world of difference. Okay, let's get into today's episode. Well, welcome folks, and welcome back to This Is Yoga Therapy. And today's conversation feels a bit like a homecoming to anyone who's ever felt at odds with their own body or stuck in a clinical cycle of trying to be fixed. And today, joining me is a true pioneer. With over five decades of clinical experience, Jerry Brouwerman has watched the landscape of healing evolve from the rigid silos of the 1970s physical therapy to compassionate integrated world of pain science and yoga therapy. She's the author of the foundational Walk Yourself Well, and her brand new book, From Bodily Knowledge to Intuitive Movement, is a gift for yoga therapists and seekers alike. And so it's wonderful to be in this conversation and to be looking at you and sharing this space today. Sherry, thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_04 2:10

Thank you so much, Michelle. I am honored and really very excited for this conversation with you. Sweet.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Well, let's dive in. You often speak about the perspective that comes from your 53 years as a clinician. You didn't just study movement, you lived through the evolution of it, including your own physical history. So tell us a bit how your personal shifts as a mover eventually led you to push beyond the boundaries of traditional physical therapy and into the heart of yoga therapy.

SPEAKER_04 2:44

Thank you. That's a beautiful and very big question.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

I like to start there.

SPEAKER_04 2:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Yeah. And you know, you we could spend the whole time there. So we could.

SPEAKER_04 2:56

So I think, first of all, the thing that feels so relevant for me is I came in loving movement. A tiny kid, I would dance. My sister sang and played the piano, me, I would dance. And then I became an ice skater, pretty serious ice skater. And I wasn't in it for the competition. I hated it. And in fact, usually I bowed out. What I loved was that the sense of movement, the air on my face, the glide, the love of movement. I was in it for how it felt. Period. I mean, pretty seriously, you know, it was patch at 6 30 in the morning and free skate after school every day.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 3:43

Yeah. My current yoga practice is still reflective of my ice skating.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 3:51

Yeah, it it is. Like it when it becomes a dance, my practice, I'm free.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

I can even see that in the image on the cover of your book that I've seen.

SPEAKER_04 4:04

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. And and and we did that for that cover. You know, we definitely went for where's the free movement.

unknown 4:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:15

Also, at that time in my life, really right around, and part of why I stopped skating, I by a fluke, got invited to go volunteer at a little school for disabled children. I was 12. They needed help, is really what it was. And my neighbor was a physical therapist. And she and the PT at that little school were two of the 12 reconstruction aides in World War II.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 4:44

We're talking about ground floor pioneers. Yeah. Physical therapy was still being born at that time. But my job was just to escort in their wheelchairs to wheel little children to and from their PT and their OT and their music therapy. And what blew my mind as a kid was first of all, when I was bringing them to physical therapy, they were so happy to go. On other ones, they were happy to be with me. On this one, they couldn't wait to get there. They loved her.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:18

And her name was Virginia Whitfield, and she was burned badly in the war, and she wasn't easy to look at.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Amazing.

SPEAKER_04 5:30

And she would come to the door, the red leather doors. Yep. She would come to the door and scoop the these little tied up, tensed up bodies out of their chairs and take them in her arms and move into her studio. And she would lay them down on these giant beach balls. I know this because I watched through the people.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 5:57

And she would lay them down over these giant beach balls and she would very start very small, and she would roll them on their bellies or on their backs from their left foot to their right hand.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:14

And from their right hand to their left foot. And those little bodies would come back to me in chairs, and they would be like gooey in their chairs. Even their faces weren't cranking smiles. They were just gooey. And I wanted to know what that was.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:40

And so I got really, you know, one day she came to the door and she said, Well, if you're gonna stand out here, you may as well make yourself useful. And she pulled me into the room and she was heavy-handed, except for with the children. Um, and she started teaching me and she taught me by feel. So she'd put me in a blindfold for a morning, or she'd stuff things in my ears. And the biggest one was one time she put me in a whole body cast, of course, my parents' permission, a Saturday. And throughout the course of the day, she cut one joint at a time so I could learn to move and understand what is happening with these kids.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

What a teacher.

SPEAKER_04 7:30

Yeah. And so I didn't know how pervasive that was going to be on my life. Of course, I was a kid too, but hence walk yourself well. And then we can skip that far forward because it's true. And I didn't know it even when I started writing walk yourself well, I didn't understand how that was playing out from my childhood. Yeah. Um, and so she was the first of many really ground floor pioneers that somehow I had the luxury of working with throughout the course of my life. But so yeah, between the love of movement and the love of her.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Yeah. How'd you get to yoga?

SPEAKER_04 8:23

Uh-huh. So let's see, that's a giant skip in maybe 79 or 80. My friend Larry Payne.

unknown 8:34

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 8:35

He told me I should go take a yoga class with this guy who has a big heart. That was Max Strom.

unknown 8:41

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 8:42

And Max is the one who gave me this. Yeah. And I went and took a class with Max Strom, and I think I sobbed starting five minutes in and all the way through to the end because it was so gorgeous and so me. And I was 100% gone in one class. And at that point, I think I went to eight or nine classes a week for three years.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

You were into it.

SPEAKER_04 9:16

I was gone.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:19

And I had no intentions of ever teaching or nothing. I it was for me. I was healing. It was my deepest, most inner world I'd ever known. And Max knew that. And one day he called and he said, you know, I'm sorry. I don't want to disrespect what I know you believe. But I'm going to India for two months, and I'm positive you're the one that's supposed to teach my classes. And, you know, that only took a class or two also for me to realize that that was indeed who I was.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 10:01

Yeah. And so that just that moved very fast after that. And oh, I should say that prior to that, he had me writing and teaching the anatomy aspects of his teacher training.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

I see.

SPEAKER_04 10:14

So that I was already doing.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Yeah. And you were well qualified for.

SPEAKER_04 10:20

Yeah. And that worked. And there was no manual back then.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 10:23

You know, the only person doing it, as far as I knew at that moment, was Judith Lassiter. Yeah. I didn't know her. And she was, you know, so it was really at that time when it was coming off the ground.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 10:35

But after teaching for Max, I started teaching yoga classes and they quickly evolved into yoga therapy. And I didn't even know what that was. I didn't even know there was a name for it.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:47

And it's because you were ahead of the curve. I mean, yes, in a way I was. And in studying yoga philosophy too, when we learned about dukkha and sukkha, you know, we understood that yoga was also about working with the hard parts, the challenging parts, and authentically. And it was by feel.

unknown 11:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:14

It wasn't by Manamaya. It was by feel.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

What a lovely background and a beautiful introduction to your path and some of the key moments along the way. And truly, none of us arrive at our work in a vacuum. You've mentioned some of your main teachers already, who really helped shape you and maybe reshape you in a way too. Are there others you'd like to mention as well? And perhaps what's the most radical thing they taught you that still informs your work today? Maybe, maybe you've already mentioned it, but feel free to highlight a few more things if you want.

SPEAKER_04 11:55

Thank you. Um, I'll say that first. Um, because putting that into a few words wasn't easy, but it felt really important and really healthy for me to do that. And I I would say that it was authentic, all of them. None of them were teaching something to do, all of them, and I'll tell some more, or teaching about how to be with and how to feel, but it was whole being, yeah, work. It wasn't holistic, it was bigger than that. Yeah. Yeah. It was wholehearted. There wasn't like a 95% way of being with your patient. There just wasn't. Um, and um it was whole sharing. So it was never being authoritative, it was giving it over, it was giving agency to them. Always, with every single mentor I've ever had, it was never about being, you know, the fixer. But physical therapy had had has that element. It's better and it's getting better right now. It really truly is. But still, when you think of a physical therapist, you think of somebody who's gonna fix your shoulder.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 13:25

Um, and the good news is you can't fix a shoulder without doing whole being work. You can call it whatever you want, but you can't. So there's that. After college, I went to work at Rusk Institute in New York City, and Rusk Institute is one of the most well-known rehabilitation centers in the world. They have 60 physical therapists and 60 aides.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 13:58

Every PT has their own aid. If you want crutches with purple spots, you get them.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:04

And that's in itself an incredible learning to find out that get the right tools. Like get the right tools because it makes a difference for things to be accessible. You can, you know, use your brain more when you're not freaking out about not having the stuff you need to teach with.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Right.

SPEAKER_04 14:23

And at Rusk Institute, the resident on my floor was none other than Dr. John Sarno. Mind over back pain, John Sarno, the first guy to bring the idea that we have something to do with how our pain arises and proceeds. John Sarno. He would come by. I don't want to spend too much time on it, but he taught whole being work so wholeheartedly he did. I would be working with somebody who had, you know, some spastic something, and I would be tapping their tendons, because that's what I learned in college, tapping their tendons and shaking and all these techniques that I learned. He'd come by and he'd say, What are you doing?

SPEAKER_03 15:11

And I would explain to him, you know, like the physiology of the technique. The technique, the technique, and he would say, Okay, okay, and he'd go by.

SPEAKER_04 15:20

And then one day I got the idea to use what I learned from Virginia Whitfield. And I started doing, and and by the way, this guy that I was working with at the time, his brain was totally intact. But he had accidentally shot himself when cleaning a gun.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:42

So um one day I got the idea and I started working with him developmentally. And this time John Sarno went by and he came over and he sat down. That was the first time he ever sat down and he said, What are you doing? And I explained it to him and he said, Now, now you're here. So that that was beyond life-changing. Yeah, everything I ever did subsequent to that had that inside of it. Because the difference was being with this patient and not thinking about this patient.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Right.

SPEAKER_04 16:34

Sure, working developmentally was cool in Bobath's work isn't so much used these days, but developmental anyway. And so, yeah, I don't think subsequent to that day I've ever been with a patient that I wasn't with. That's one of those lessons you can't unlearn.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:58

Yeah. And it goes with you everywhere you go because it does not just with patients.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Right. Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Such an important nugget there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:11

I worked there for a few years and then I moved to New Mexico. I took the train from New York to New Mexico. I took everything I owned and I didn't know a soul there.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

And you landed in Albuquerque.

SPEAKER_04 17:23

No, I did not.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

No, you didn't. Okay. I was gonna say I've I've picked people up at that train station in Albuquerque before.

SPEAKER_03 17:30

Oh, is that right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Well, I only live about four hours from there.

SPEAKER_04 17:33

Oh, Durango is that close.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:36

True. I landed at Lamy Junction.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 17:41

Not having any idea where I was in New Mexico, and I had literally everything I owned in the world with New York City.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

And worlds apart from New York City.

unknown 17:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:51

I had had it with New York City. So I found my way, I spent a year traveling around the state. I did um a grant with the University of New Mexico. I just sort of fell into this cool thing I developed and it became a thing.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

Great.

SPEAKER_04 18:08

Getting residents from the University of New Mexico up into the hills to help the kids that were walking around with cleft pallets. I did that.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 18:17

Yeah. And then I had to get a job. And I went back into rehab at St. Joseph's Hospital. And then they sent put me out on the road doing home health care for every place from Albuquerque to Santa Fe on the west side of the highway. And if you know what that is, 100% Indian tribal land.

SPEAKER_03 18:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:47

And so that's who I was treating in New Mexico. I have so many stories, but I'm going to refrain. Back in rehab and frustrated by some of the things, I I just was, I had the beautiful foundation, but I just felt like there was still so many pieces missing from what I understood. And so I started like being like a crazed cricket studying, studying with anybody I could find. And that's when I ended up sort of flying to courses. And I studied with John Minnell and Janet Travell. And John Minnell was the father of talk about groundwork pioneer. He was the father of joint mobilization in the Western medicine world.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

I see.

SPEAKER_04 19:38

No one ever even said the words before that. But the beauty of there were lots, but the beauty of John Minnell was he knew, I can still see his hands on my hands teaching me. He knew that when you were treating a finger, you were treating an entire body, an entire being. Never. It wasn't a subject. The subject was in context with the whole, how does this work? And so I never came away feeling piecemealed in that work. And by such luck, he was working with Janet Travell at the time. And I'm pretty sure they were having a thing. No one ever said that. But when I look it up, they say, um, yes, they were very dear friends, or anyway, but Janet Travell was doing trigger point muscle work.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:46

And she too, her thing was not just understanding the reflection of a point throughout the body, but it was also that she wanted a team. She always brought in, you know, all the other aspects of healing. And isn't that how it works?

unknown 21:06

Right.

SPEAKER_04 21:07

And that was the first time that I understood how important it was for me to be connected with a team of people and to never feel like it was about me. That's right. And in fact, years later, me and I don't know if you know Benjamin Shield. No, genius craniosacral Rolfer, he's in New Mexico. And um, he and I developed this group called the West Side Interdisciplinary Team, in which, and this was in '95, maybe, and we developed this team of maybe 30 healing arts people in LA, and we all came together live once a month. And once a month, somebody presented a case and got to get feedback from all these other disciplines.

unknown 21:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:59

So that Was a beautiful time and you know, very, very healing. But so Janet and John Manel, that was I flew to see them a few times. And these flights, I don't want to confuse you, these flights were like a big deal for me. Yeah. And then in New Mexico, after that chapter, I went to work for and they they sought me out, these two wonderful doctors, orthopedic surgeons, and said, We want to open the first private physical therapy office in New Mexico and we want you to do it. And I did that.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Yeah, amazing.

SPEAKER_04 22:42

And that was incredible and fun. And oh, you'll love this. And I was getting to McKinsey because that was the next thing I did. But also I started evening group classes right off the bat. That was one of my in my original plan. And we used Richard Hittelman's book, and I taught yoga.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 23:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

That's wonderful.

SPEAKER_04 23:08

So funny. Yeah. But we did that for some years.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:15

And that was the point at which back pain was confusing me, both because I discovered my own right around then and they x-rayed my back because I just kept saying, I don't know. It just weird. And it turned out that I had this pretty strong spondyloglyphesis. And so I started the crazed cricket thing came back with wanting to understand who's doing what with back pain. And so that's when I went to McKinsey. And I went to McKinse thinking, oh, these extensions are going to work for everybody but me. I mean, I have a sponda. It would kill me if I did those. I can't do those. And maybe 500 physical therapists in the room to see Robin McKinsey at that time. And he was just starting out, and he was the king of low back pain. And I'm embarrassed to tell you this, but I did. I put my hand up to go up when he called for people to challenge him. I really did.

unknown 24:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

And I was and you learned something, I bet.

SPEAKER_04 24:28

Well, I I knew he was going to evaluate me before he said anything. And I was just curious what he was going to do with it, because I knew I could never do that. Think again.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 24:42

And he said, Yeah, but no, you can. And here's why. He explained it to me, you know, in great detail, structurally, and what was going on, and how my nerves were safe and da-da-da-da. And I did them in front of all those people. And lo and behold, honestly, my back went from a five to a two in five minutes.

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 25:09

That was shocking. Yeah. And life-changing. Yeah. In so many ways and on so many levels. Right. So, you know, like you can't think of a layer that wasn't changed for me in that experience.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Yeah. And it affirmed so many things for you, and maybe just, yeah, totally rewrote a lot of other things for you.

SPEAKER_04 25:33

Yeah. Be open.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Uh-huh. Never think you know. Right.

SPEAKER_04 25:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Just never stop it. It doesn't work. Right. Yeah. Should we move on to talk about your book? Sure. So you start by exploring the psychosocial influences on movement. I feel like we're kind of leading our way there anyway. So I'm curious, why did you start there in a world that's so obsessed with the biological and the biomechanical? And maybe we're becoming less obsessed in that. But why do you believe our social and psychological stories are often the louder influences on how we move?

SPEAKER_04 26:12

Thank you so much for this question. It could be my favorite. The part about physical therapy at that point being, you know, my shoulder hurts, fix my shoulder, never sat well for me. I did it. I was taught it. It was foundational. I understood it. I loved and love knowing how it works.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:39

But I had so many patients who had perfect clean x-rays and lots of pain.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:45

And so many patients who had lots of pain and nothing on their x-rays. So it never sat for me. And I learned on myself, all of this was always dovetailing with what was going on inside of me.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 27:03

Mainly at that point with my back. I knew that when I was tired and hungry and my kid was had pneumonia, my back would be a mess. Everything would be harder. When I was stressed and going out for a long time, I was traveling and teaching for sketchers. I was teaching gate classes all across the country for sketchers. And I was so nervous and anxious and stressed doing that. I I think it was almost like it was sooner than I was ready for that much kind of thing. So, and you know, I'd limp to the airport and find myself like working hard all night to try to get ready to not let my limb show the next day because my leg was on fire.

SPEAKER_02 27:53

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 27:54

And I learned that with love and care and quiet and softness, I could get out of it. Not by doing the right exercises, you know, not by understanding every degree of range of motion. What actually made me better was being with myself and not trying to push it away or pretend I didn't have it. I realized I had to be with who I was and be able to say, hey, I'm having about a back pain today, so I'm gonna let you do the walking, things like that. I just had to learn to be okay with it for real.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:37

And that's what got me better. And I saw it in so many people. You know, why was it that they would come back from vacation and say, I didn't have a day of pain, you know, and why was it that when faced with having to go back to work, their pain reappeared? Yeah. All that stuff. Right. And so it was clear as a bell to me in wanting to share my system that that had to be said first.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Yeah. Well, then the middle of your book transitions into moving by feel, and you've already talked about that, kind of in this early stage when you had your first experience at a 12-year-old. And it sounds so simple, but we know in yoga therapy it's actually quite profound. You said that learning to move by feel asks for a surprising amount of self-love and permission. And so, why is feeling so much harder than doing?

SPEAKER_04 29:39

Because it's so vulnerable. Because in order to feel you have to be patient, you have to be calm, you have to focus. And we're just so scattered in this world, so busy, so fast. And and we're even shy, we're shy, and we're even shy to ourselves, but shy to ourselves, you know. I don't want to admit that there's something wrong. I want to be strong and brave and you know, able. And so in order to recognize not just discomfort, but the minutest delineations of discomfort, so that you can gauge, so that you can work with it, so that you can utilize the the parts that are working well as a gauge, not because one's better than the other, but to understand the the colors of your body, of your being. You you have to get down inside. And so um I learned that firsthand, and I learned it from watching so many patients, and that patient patients, i.e. N-C E patients, you have to give yourself permission. You have to choose to let it out or let it be known. Yeah. It doesn't just come naturally because we're fastidious hiders. And it's you you it doesn't and and even now, even now when something bothers, I really have to go through the the spiel in my head of what that means, what that could mean, how I want to be with it. I have uh it doesn't like oh yeah. It's always a particular line and it's changing all the time, and each different discomfort requires a different thought process. They're not all the same.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 32:03

And so it's really just being open to what is. Yeah, yeah, that's what it is.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

Yeah, I want to touch on a point that you've already said in in several different ways, and I think it'll be a huge relief to our listeners. And you argue that healing isn't defined by perfect alignment or symptom-free living either. If we aren't aiming for a fixed or perfect body, what are we actually aiming for in a yoga therapy session in our lives as individuals?

SPEAKER_04 32:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Um alignment is practically useless. It there just isn't. I mean, knowing that there's a ball in a socket is cool. Usually there's a ball in a socket kind of thing, you know, right? But finding elasticity in a very crooked joint, and I'm using crooked instead of out of aligned, but finding elasticity, the elasticity that that joint has available is where you live. That if you're pushing beyond that joint's elasticity, you're pushing on your whole sense of vulnerability, and oh, this means you're broken, and this means this doesn't work, and all the things that come with that emotionally and spiritually, and how different it is to work with what is there, with what is working instead of with what is wrong. And utilizing that, so finding the edges that are comfortable and honestly elastic. Stay away from cement, we don't need it, and then that will lead to the whole body responding to that in all the ways, in all the koshas, in all the bodily systems. And it's that connection that works, not any amount of techniques of pushing on a joint that's stiff for some reason. Any reason.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

Yeah.

unknown 34:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

Yeah. What a relief. Right? Yeah. What a relief, but it is so imprinted um that it actually takes a lot of undoing, I think, for many yoga teachers or people with bodies, you know, operating around in the narrative that has been so pervasive for a long time.

SPEAKER_04 34:43

Yeah. I mean, neutral can be found in any crooked joint. It's not neutral some standard. It's that joint's neutral. And so, you know, people think, well, neutral is here. No, it isn't. Yeah. Not for that person.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

Right, right. And that's why there's no one size fits all approach.

SPEAKER_02 35:07

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 35:07

There are no solutions. And I think I say that like 50 times in my book.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:13

Or more. I don't know how many times I said it, like broken record, because everything sounds like it's going to be a solution. I worried a lot about giving, for example, the seeing bodies chapter, because it could be confused for parts mentality. But that's why the chapter is called and the parts become a whole. I love the foundational detail. When something's uncomfortable, my brain is definitely looking musculoskeletally at where it is and why it's hot and all that. There are plenty of practitioners who do it without that detail. And I believe it can be done.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 35:58

Just not me.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:00

Not some people. And the and and so I know that this is just a paradigm.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 36:05

But it's a good paradigm. Uh-huh.

unknown 36:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

And it doesn't end there. Right. That's right. Well, this is related. One of my favorite concepts of yours is the idea of starting with the person's own terms of healing. And so you said there's no solutions, but but maybe in a way, like this is the answer, right? Yeah. So when a client comes to you in pain or uncertainty, how do you help them identify the parts of themselves that are already functioning well? And how does that shift the power dynamic in the room? And what does that open to?

SPEAKER_04 36:41

Yeah. Um, so I think the first thing is truly, some people think healing is having a perfect body with zero pain. And that's really true because we all came in believing that pain was bad and it meant damage, and damage meant get afraid.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

Right.

SPEAKER_04 37:04

And the other thing is, is boy, self-acceptance is running low in our culture. It just is. Everybody's scared and insecure. Me too.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 37:16

And so adding pain to that mix, it's almost like an easy glide to not accepting. You know it's not okay. You know, that you don't understand. Mine is bad. That's really what patients are saying to us, right? You don't understand, uh-uh. Mine really is bad.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:42

I think of the first lady I told you about today, Fanella, my neighbor, who was a PT in the war. Yeah. I got to be with her when she was passing.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 37:53

Yeah. And she was in a lot of pain. And her son Eddie, who's also a PT, was there. And Eddie was holding her and telling her, It's okay, mom, you can let go. And she had been still for hours, and all of a sudden she picked her head up and she said to Eddie, stop it, Eddie. I'm waiting for Robbie. Eddie's brother. Stop it, Eddie. I'm waiting for Robbie. Robbie got there, she engaged with him, and then she left. And she wasn't in pain, she was in joy. And I really believe that we have that capacity to be in total joy along with pain, if that's where it is. And I think that being with joy, and I don't mean happy, but I mean the deep well of joy. That being with joy, with the understanding that one, tissue loves healing, and we kind of have to get out of the way. And two, that if we can't, we're still this beautiful, energetic, vibrant, spiritual being that we have X amount of time to be with. And why give it away?

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That was gorgeous.

SPEAKER_02 39:39

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Well, your work is such a lighthouse for those of us who are trying to bridge this gap between science and soul, and you have such a wealth of experience. Thank you for all those years and showing us the way. I would love it if you could just share a little personal insight into what your own practice looks like and how it has helped sustain you through all these years.

SPEAKER_04 40:04

Thank you. With walk yourself, well, you can imagine that I do walk almost every day of my life.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

When did that book come out? What year?

SPEAKER_04 40:15

98.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

98. Yeah. I'm a big walker too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:20

Yeah, good. Every day. Every day. Typically twice a day.

SPEAKER_04 40:25

Nice. Yeah. Nice. I love it. I only usually walk once a day, but I have my practice the other part of the day. And in my walking, there are times when I'm listening to things, but mostly I love I just love the quiet and like not thinking. And on occasion I have music, but really my favorite walks, and they're more often than not, they're quiet. And it's a walking meditation, and it's how I hold the peace in me. You know, it's really easy to come back. You know how when you go to downward facing dog, it feels like it's the first time you've ever done it. You know that thing, the innocence that we bring to downward-facing dog. That's how I feel about walking. It's like the first time I've ever done it. And I've studied so much detail about walking. But when I'm walking, none of that's there. Yeah. Yeah. And unless something's bothering, in which case, then I'm at it in there and sorting through it. So that's a big piece of my practice. And then my practice on my mat is funny. I rarely do the same thing on both sides.

unknown 41:47

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

That's too busy.

SPEAKER_03 41:51

You know, and I know this side needs this, and this side needs this, and I'm paying attention to what I need.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 41:57

You know?

SPEAKER_00 41:58

You're the first person who's ever said that in this podcast. That's great. I love it. Maybe it gives so much permission to others.

SPEAKER_04 42:08

I hope so. Yeah. It's fun. My teaching I take very, very seriously, and I love teaching my group classes. I absolutely love it. But my personal practice is lighthearted. Yeah. Even if I'm sad and going through something hard, there is a lightheartedness. There is a lift in my practice. There's a dance in my practice. It can be slow and sad. There's still a dance in my practice. And it's my relief zone and it's my love zone. And it's just where it's in this little room, and I get to be me. Yeah. Nobody knows.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

Yeah. It almost feels like we just had a full circle conversation. It does. Thank you so much. I really love speaking with you, and I'll share links so folks know how to find you and your work and your book and all of that. And uh I look forward to being with you again soon.

SPEAKER_04 43:14

Michelle, thank you so much. It was just such a fun, light-hearted and deep conversation. I really enjoyed it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

Thanks again for listening. If you're interested to learn more about who we are and what we do, check us out at inner peaceyogatherapy.com.