The Affiliate Marketing Podcast - The Bingo Debate, with Kevin McGinnigle at Positively Distinctive Media

On this week's episode of The Affiliate Marketing Podcast, Lee-Ann Johnstone speaks with Kevin Mcginnigle, Founder of Positively Distinctive Media.

They discuss the big changes in bingo over the past few years and what the future looks like. Listen to hear their thoughts on the importance of immersing yourself in the world of bingo.

Rate, Review, & Subscribe on Apple Podcasts

“I love AffiliateINSIDER’s Affiliate Marketing Podcast.” <– If that sounds like you, please consider rating and reviewing our podcast show!

Taking the time to do that, helps us support more people in our community to access digital and affiliate marketing insights, expert lead learning and the latest online marketing tactics that help Affiliate businesses grow.

Click here, scroll to the bottom, tap to rate with five stars, and select “Write a Review.” Also, if you haven’t done so already, subscribe to the podcast. We will be adding new episodes as we gear up to launch a spectacular 3RD SEASON in January 2021.

Subscribe HERE!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:19

I'll give you the inside discreet unlocked the training and affiliate marketing strategies. So I'd like to add to the affiliate strategies host expert interviews with the leading affiliated tech entrepreneurs and discuss the latest affiliated digital marketing training studies. If you want to stay at the cutting edge of affiliate marketing, you're in the right place. Join me for this week's episode and let's get started. Hi Kevin, it's absolutely amazing to have you on our podcast today. Um from Positively Distinctive Media. I always try and get that tongue tied, but um you're the founder and MD of this very interesting business that we're going to be speaking to today. So um welcome on the podcast show with me. I'm absolutely delighted to have you here. Uh tell us a little bit about PDM, as it's known for short, uh, for listeners that haven't ever met you or encountered your business before.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Yeah, no problem. Okay, thanks for having me first and foremost, my first podcast. So um let's see if we can get this in one take. So we we founded our business about two years ago. We've just gone into our third year of trading actually a couple of weeks back, um, off the back of a successful uh white label business called A-Ball Games. Um the the backstory uh for reason for speed is I was a bingo chat host uh when I was 21, 22. So I was there back in the day, 2008, 2009, chatting to people while they were playing bingo, trying to encourage them to play chat games and all that fun stuff. Um really enjoyed it, really seen uh a market that I like to get into. Um asked the founders at the time if I could have a job, something a little bit more engaging than just chat hosting. And um fortunately they said yes, and over the course of I think it was a nine-year journey, we grew the business to about 150 different bingo brands, slot brands, casino brands across 10 different um white label partners, and sold the business to Stride Gaming, which was subsequently acquired by Rank. Um, and so that journey took me almost from chat host to acting uh, I was operations director, acting MD, um learned everything there was to know in the marketing and gaming space from making a brew for everybody to create um what used to be called the uh the VIP department, which no longer exists in this space, um, to business intelligence, to graphic design and all that sort of stuff. So we've taken all that sort of knowledge into the new business, and we are very much a creative marketing technology business now, so we make um anything that is creative in the marketing space um with technology that backs it up.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Okay. Now there's nobody, Anna, in this industry that knows more about bingo than you, and that's really why I wanted to bring you onto the podcast today because I feel like the bingo sector has sort of largely been ignored by affiliates and it's just like an appendage on an operator side. But you guys are doing some really incredible stuff in this space. So can you talk me through some of the big changes that you've seen in bingo, especially in the last three years? Because I know it's sort of had a bit of a resurgence. So talk to us a little bit about what's happening in the space.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

Yeah, so it's interesting that you say it's gone quiet actually, because I think that depends where your position is in the market. I guess from like you said, an affiliate space, it's it's gone quite quiet. Um, but not for us. Bingo's been uh bingo's been quite uh in the forefront of our minds. Um over the last three years, as you know, with the online gaming space, the landscape changed uh dramatically with regards to regulation and compliance, and I think that really um bogged down a lot of operators and it stopped them innovating, it stopped them creating new things. Um and I think in addition to that, casino got a lot of attraction over the last three years, and so what you what we found is a lot of people just wanted to launch a lot of casino sites. Some people did it on a bigger scale, think you play Ojo's and Cassimbas, um, whereas bingo, nobody was really coming up with new um bingo propositions. Um, and I put that down to uh lack of operators giving you a decent solution because they were bogged down and trying to make everything compliant. Uh the technology stack I think was quite old in a lot of these places, and and I don't think that's changed yet. Um, and I just think there's a lack of probably market knowledge around the bingo space. Um, I still laugh to this day when people say to me um bingo is just there as a loss leader, you just lose money on bingo, people make money on slots. Um, that's just not the case if if you know what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Yeah, so we're gonna talk about a little bit about that. So can you um kind of talk about that in terms of numbers? Like everybody thinks a bingo player is you know middle-aged housewife who doesn't really you know have much to do with their time because the kids are in school. But talk to us a little bit about how you're seeing the bingo space right now and who this customer is.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

It's it's um traditionally, I don't know if you could pick up some of the reports in the industry. Um, traditionally, we you'd see females over 45, and that's that makes up the the bigger size portion. Um, but it really is um it's a huge, it's a huge industry that attracts everybody who likes a bit of a flutter. Bingo's always seen to be softer, uh more lighthearted um because of its background and its tradition. Um, and I always say everybody loves a bit of bingo, and COVID has really sort of solidified that for me. So if you take Matthew McConaughey was caught playing bingo with his family over Zoom, Kate and Wills were playing bingo um over Zoom. Um you've had people uh playing bingo in the street um in Bolton. And so um I can't see that changing. Um I really can't see it changing.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

It's kind of like the nation's favorite game, isn't it? And there's still opportunities for like operators and affiliates to really explore this market and provide new solutions. Now, talk to me a little bit about like bingo game development because, like you said earlier, the product stack hasn't really changed much. What are you guys doing in terms of kind of the game developments area to kind of make this a little bit more exciting again?

SPEAKER_02 6:11

Good question. So, my personal opinion is bingo is almost limitless with the things you can do from a fun and engaging excitement point of view. There is a lot of numbers, and with numbers you can you can tie very fun and clever promotions, and it's random, so you never know what's going to drop. Um, I think where the industry has gone is um slightly left field of where we're going, is that you look at Pragmatic, for example, for instance, they've they've taken a very good bingo product and they've now made it a tab on a casino site. So for me, I I've always seen a bingo brand is very different to playing a game of bingo on a casino site. Um, and I think that the the market in the industry has gone down that route, and I think they've gone down that route for possibly affiliates and for for different marketing channels, because now I can offer you a bingo solution on my casino site, but I don't necessarily think that is targeting bingo players that's still very much a casino and using it as a sort of a hook just to try and get bingo players through the door. But I think that will come down on them quite quickly when a true bingo player will realize actually, all you've done is stuck a bingo tab up here, but you're just a slot site. I can play slots on thousands of different um casino sites across the country. Um, what I think is quite interesting uh with regards to product differentiation. I think what Mr. Q are doing is interesting, they've created their own proprietary technology um and they're creating their own variants of games, much like Pragmatic have, but I think where the big difference between Mr. Q and Pragmatic are is pragmatic have gone, everybody, if you're a casino, if you're a sports book, you can have bingo. Whereas Mr. Q is saying, if you want my products, you can only play it on here because they are bespoke and you can't get them anywhere else. And personally, I feel like that is where there is more value because if you can get that same bingo experience on 50 other different sites, there's no reason for me necessarily to come and join and stick there. I want to play on the one that's given me that differentiator.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Yeah. And do customers, I mean, because the traditionally the tenure of a bingo player is quite long. So, you know, once customers find a game that they love, does that really make them stick, or is it all about the chat and the community and everything else that's going on?

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Yeah, the latter. I think it's the experience. In my opinion, when you create a bingo brand, you are not just thinking about slots and games. And I've always come from a bingo background rather than slots and casino. So when you speak to slots and casino people, they're very much focused on the game, the RTP, the volatility. And I'm very much like, no, this is an experience. I see a bingo brand, no difference to a shop. When you go into a shop or when you go into an online bingo brand, you want to be welcomed, you want to be treated nicely, you want to be shown around, you want to be incentivized to stick around in a in a safe way. You want to be engaged, you want to be entertained, depending on the shop you go in, obviously. Um, but that for me is what a bingo site is. It is not just come and join, uh come and join and play a slot because that is very much a slot site. Bingo is is everything.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

And it's not about, and and it's funny you should talk about the customer um experience and the user journey because um earlier today I was speaking to somebody about branded SEO, and this sort of ties in quite nicely about having a user experience that makes somebody stick around and actually want to play the games and want to be in the in the environment that you're providing. So, is that something that affiliates can maybe get in on a little bit? Because obviously the operator sets that, but is that something that affiliates can maybe um you know augment at the start of the customer journey to actually provide the information about what kind of experience you're going to be having at various brands? Have you seen anybody do anything innovative in that space?

SPEAKER_02 9:26

Uh no, I haven't seen much innovation, but I think there's a lot of room for it. I think if you've if you're set on that brand and that experience is as good as it can be, and you want to work with an affiliate, there's nothing stopping you as a brand owner or operator, depending on your tech, to set up that journey before they even hit the actual brand to encourage them to come through the door. Now we're a big believer in um gamification and uh or what we prefer to call engagement tools. I think gamification has a big buzzword around it, but ultimately what you're trying to do is engage somebody. Um, you can engage somebody and you should be trying to engage someone from the moment they hear about your brand. So they need to know everything about that brand because I don't always think the affiliate information is particularly up to date and accurate, which is quite a big one. And then what you want to do is try and capture them, engage them, not just with a bigger offer or with a particular slot. You want to physically get them involved and engage them from the moment they see it through to when they they come and ultimately play and hopefully stick around.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Okay. And if you were a betting man, where would you invest now to pick up new revenue streams or untapped sections of the bingo marketplace? I mean, it is quite a varied space, and each brand has their own um, you know, like custom uh, you know, plus points and things. Where would you advise somebody who wants to get into the bingo space?

SPEAKER_02 10:34

Uh well, first and foremost, I'm not a betting man, but I do market research as that's how I get away with it. Um I just prefer to put my money where my mouth is and sort of back back my ideas. Um, but where would I back it now if someone asked me that? I think there's huge potential in bringing bingo back to the basics, um, which is fun and entertainment. That's why you play. It shouldn't be about high stakes, high volatility, which is very much slots of casino, which I think where a lot of bingo brands have gone to. In my head, you you put your money on somewhere whereas low stakes, low win amount, so there's no big, spiky, massive, huge 150,000 pound wins, keep the wins nice and low and realistic. Um, will give players the chance to win quite often. So um you want high win frequency, but a low win amount. So players are getting that nice feeling they're winning a lot, and they can they can win enough to go and treat the kids of the weekend or whatever that they want to do. Um, if you think back to a retail bingo hall, um so we work with Majestic Bingo, really, really great guys. Um, they have an online brand. In club, the most you can stake is two pounds, and the most you can win is 500. Now that's what that's for me is a nice, it's a nice win amount. I'd love to win 500 pounds, and I can't spend too much, I can only spend two pounds every time I play in. Um, and that's for me what is going to translate to online. People call it the Tom Bowler model, I think, and they've been doing it for years and years. I think you're about to see a big shift over the next 18, 24 months to everybody else playing catch-up to that mentality of you know what, I should just try and focus on the experience and the engagement pieces and the entertainment rather than just trying to give them lots and lots and lots of slot content, which generally seems to be the case.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Yeah, okay. And what advice would you give to um affiliates and operators, like affiliate managers that are working in the bigger space? Like, where do you think that they can differentiate their product and really build um stronger relationships with affiliates that are in this space?

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Uh well, there's one easy win for me to say here. We've actually just set up our own PDM affiliates network, which we are purely focusing on bingo for operators and affiliates, where we're looking to grow that into one space. Um, I think that would probably help because there aren't many new bingo sites out there anymore. Um, I know you talked about you want some information and some facts. Um, there is there were 40% less bingo brands in the world that existed three years ago to where they are now. The last time it was reported was 264. Um so to give uh to give affiliates well, they need new brands, they always need new brands. It's very hard to push old brands if they've already got all the players. Yeah, um, and that's what we're we're hoping to try and do with uh with where we're going. Um, but also be open and build relationships with brand owners and operators. My background was never really affiliates, it was always being a brand owner, and we didn't do much in the affiliate space, but it was very rare to get somebody to come and explain to me why I should get into that space and why I should utilize affiliates. Um I don't think there's enough of that out there at the moment. Unlike people like yourselves who are actively pushing for that connection between the two individual affiliates, don't necessarily seem to want to do that.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

What's the lifetime like what's the average lifetime value now of a bingo player? Do you is that a number that you would ask?

SPEAKER_02 13:41

That's the million dollar question. So having worked now with probably over 200 different brands, yeah, it's very much dependent on marketing channel and brand. They're the two biggest, and every single marketing channel and every single brand will vary wildly. And so um it does make me laugh when people come up with one arbitrary figure that just says this is just the average value of being a player. Um you've got to take one to yeah, with a pinch of salt, I think.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't ask the questions. Um, the the other thing is um obviously for affiliates to invest in this channel and to actually get engaged in creating content and experiences and everything else, there needs to be some sort of monetary value where they know that they're gonna break even and make money. Do you would you say that a standalone bingo product is a good idea to promote for affiliates right now, or would you would you say that they would still be looking at having a sort of casino and bingo product combined?

SPEAKER_02 14:34

Uh, I think if you're gonna do it, you should very much just focus on bingo and be a bingo affiliate. I don't think you combine the two because you're not attracting the right customer, but you've got to go out there and set yourself, oh, what affiliate that's at the end of the day is just marketing, and you've got to go and capture a demographic that fits the product that you're trying to save up. And so to try and sort of blend it with sports or casino or slot, for me doesn't work. Go bingo and do it right. And I think yeah, I like that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Okay. Now I'm just um unfortunately for the people that are listening, they can't see our video, but um, on the back of your wall, you say you have something called think outside the box. So, how can you what's what's the one think outside the box point that you want to leave with people on today about bingo and about the fact that it is still a growing market and still something that people should be looking to invest in?

SPEAKER_02 15:22

Oh, that's a that's a good question. A think outside the box answer to that. Um, I think going on, I think you should go and explore the product and understand it. I think a lot of people come to the marketplace and don't actually go and join an actual bingo brand instead of a casino site with a slots tab. Go and immerse yourself into the world of water bingo player experiences. And there's some great brands out there um that you can do that on, and that will significantly boost your chances of being a better affiliate because you understand the product. I don't think people understand bingo in its true essence online.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Yeah, I I I would agree with you. I think that people have just discounted it as a kind of ride-along product that just you know extends tenure of a player, of a slots player, and then I think you're 100% correct, it's a completely different marketplace, and those that really take the time to understand that end user and create those user journeys are the ones that are gonna really make the money at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

So yeah, here's another one for you before you go. So I just thought of it like this. I'm good at coming up with crap analogies. Um, so you wouldn't go into a supermarket necessarily to pick up some tomato ketchup and try and sell the well, you probably would try and sell them brown sauce, even though they're both sauces, they taste widely different. And I know a lot of people don't like either one. It's almost the similar, they're both condiments, you put them on the table if people want them on the food, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna attract the exact same person. Um for some reason in in the online bingo space, it's very much if you do slots, you must like bingo or vice versa.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

But that's also a really good point because you spend a lot of your time creating content that speaks to both the brown source user and the tomato sauce customer, and actually it gets you nowhere because you haven't understood your customer and what the customer actually wants. If you if you spend all of your time, effort, and money creating the tomato sauce and only attracting the tomato sauce, then you know it's money well spent. And it brings me back to um one of the themes that keeps recurring on this podcast um season, which is the riches are in the niches, and really understanding who your customer is is the start of everything that needs to happen with your marketing journey.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

Absolutely. And I and I bet you if you went and questioned all your affiliates, how many of you actually go and play on a bingo brand and fully get it and understand it and understand the journey from the point you join to where you're at in a couple of months' time. I don't think many would be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Probably not, but yes, he's hoping that they do now after listening to this uh podcast about bingo. So thank you very much for joining us on the affiliate insider affiliate marketing podcast. It's been a pleasure to have you and to hear more about what's happening in the bingo space. And we wish you all the very best with Thinking Outside the Box.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

Thanks. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Bye. This podcast is sponsored by One Account. One Account offers a free, real-time age verification solution for affiliates and helps to ensure audience compliance in highly regulated markets. The process is super simple for players who need to age verify to access free-to-play games. And the tool integrates seamlessly into your existing affiliate site. To find out more and get started with one account in your affiliate business, visit www.oneaccount.net forward slash business.