The Art of Longevity
Uniquely honest conversations with famous and renowned musicians. We talk about how these artists have navigated the mangle of the music industry to keep on making great music and winning new fans after decades of highs and lows. We dive into past, present and future and discuss business, fandom, creation and collaboration. What defines success in today's music business? From the artist's point of view.
The Guardian: “Making a hit record is tough, but maintaining success is another skill entirely. Music industry executive Keith Jopling explores how bands have kept the creative flame alive in this incisive series”.
The Art of Longevity
The Art of Longevity Season 4, Episode 7: Nerina Pallot
After her second album Fires (2005) Nerina Pallot was hot property. She kissed the frog that is ‘fame’ in the music industry, with a BRIT nomination, Ivors nomination and even an appearance on Top Of The Pops. Never quite comfortable with that, her third album The Graduate (2009) was an uneven affair that failed to keep the spotlight shining Nerina’s way. That turned out for the better…
When I heard her new record, the ironically titled I Don’t Know What I’m Doing, I found myself instantly liking it but sensing that the record would grow on me as well - an album that will keep on revealing new depths. In that respect, I wasn’t surprised to hear that the inspiration behind it was the ‘proper pop’ tunes of the 70s: Kate Bush, Stevie Wonder, ABBA, Barry Gibb, Judie Tzuke, Leo Sayer, Carole King and Elkie Brooks! The album is awash in 70s style keyboards and real tunes. If only that Late Night Taxi Ride radio show of mine would ever get off the ground, Nerina’s brand of grown-up pop would feature rather more prominently than it currently does on the UK radio! Or even USA radio for that matter.
“I got flown out tons of times by American labels who thought that Everybody’s Gone To War would be a big radio record, but how do you sell an album that is nothing like the single? I’m not a straightforward sell. I never have been. But that’s where I’m happy”.
Her relatively low profile these days is more a frustration for her fans than Nerina herself, however. Like so many other artists of longevity, Pallot has long since eschewed the attachment to such industry accolades, but her connection to the fan base seems unbreakable:
“I have a strong contract with my audience. The fans are a big part of my records - I want them to feel like at least 3 or 4 songs connect with them - the rest is gravy”. It’s been a circuitous route each time to get my records made, so I don’t want to let them down”.
That frame of mind is what makes a Nerina Pallot album such a treat, and her live shows the best kept secret in town. Good for those lucky, loyal fans.
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Hello, it's lovely to be with you.
Keith Jopling:How are you doing?
Nerina Pallot:I'm doing good. I'm dying of heat here. It's an uncharacteristically hot British summer. So it is
Keith Jopling:I feel very lucky to be in an air conditioned recording studio talking to you right now.
Nerina Pallot:Yeah, I wish I was in an air conditioned place anything. Well,
Keith Jopling:next time join me in the studio. But it's a Friday afternoon. It's a hot one. You have released a new album? I
Nerina Pallot:have Yeah, yeah, this very day. The thing is that all artists will say to you, by the time David release comes around you just so over it. It's almost five years since my last album, and this album took a long time to make. So it's like just a wave of relief that it's out in the world more than anything. And
Keith Jopling:the title is I don't know what I'm doing. Now, what kind of a statement is that?
Nerina Pallot:The moment I finished writing that song, my gut was like, you have to call the album this. This is this is the advertiser. And I thought I'd be met with our God. Here she goes, again, because I have made some missteps with album titles in the past or song titles in the past. But I think the song itself is very, quite a universal sentiment that I think everybody especially during the pandemic felt a bit, you know, that sort of by the third lockdown, gone, I just didn't know you didn't know what it was, what day it was. Also, we'd all lost the sense of how used to function. And so it was really written around then it was more of a statement about how that whole experience has made me feel, you know, and also like a reflection on the fact that you get to a certain point in your life and you're meant to be an adult And you hoping the adults are running the show? And then you realize that, oh, nobody's an adult around here. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:TrackMaster builder refers to that. Well, I'm gonna come on to that in a minute. But I love the sentiment, I have to say, I love the album.
Nerina Pallot:Thank you very much.
Keith Jopling:I really don't I heard it for the first time on headphones today, because obviously released it today, I've been listening to it on my laptop before. And it sounds fantastic as well. So that's added a dimension to it. So when I read the spiel on it, so it is filled with memories of childhood, Strange Tales of fate and coincidence, reflections of self, it's about making mistakes, learning from them. And celebrating life for as long as we have breath in our bodies. That is a, I think, a great sentiment for our times, I have to say,
Nerina Pallot:thank you. The funny thing is, while I was making the record, I had this, I think we were all confronted with mortality because of what was happening to us at large. And then I didn't really realize how precious that would be. Because, you know, recently, I've just very close friend, and aren't. And week after next, I will bury my oldest sister. And so I've never felt mortality as keenly as I do now. And what I'm realizing things like loss is that you can either you can just go under or you can go, I'm going to choose every single chunk out of life that I can, I'm just going to be here, I'm going to be present. Because I think that those of us who are left, we have this duty to carry on and carry on and, and not miss that, you know, those moments, I think, yeah,
Keith Jopling:and at the same time, it doesn't have to be making everyday perfect. You know, there's an element of this album, which is just we're all muddling through it. And I have to say that absolutely speaks to me for sure. And I'm sure to millions of others in that respect. But it does start out and I liked the way you start your records. I mean, I liked the opening of your last record, stay lucky. But this one starts out with a bit of an epic with cold places. So the heart comes in, then it's starting to get a bit electronic. I thought I was going to be listening to a more electronic album at one point. Yeah,
Nerina Pallot:because the first song hints at that, you know, and I have made more electronic records in the past. And a lot of the process, often I start in the boxes that way, you know, I start in logic and build out and I start quite electronically, especially because a lot of my records are heavily string laden. But when I'm sketching work, I can't obviously have a string orchestra at my disposal while I just try things. So I do start in that space. And sometimes the electronics make it to the end. And sometimes I just replaced them all with organic things. But I don't have like a snobbery or hierarchy about it. It's just whatever seems to fit and work.
Keith Jopling:It feels like on this album and stay lucky you've kind of settled on a classic mode of songwriting. It's very, it's very post genre. So it's borderless in terms of you know, the
Nerina Pallot:genre, I'm gonna steal that. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:I'm into it. I'm totally into this. I think a lot of artists, that's where a lot of artists want to go. So we'll get into that in a bit. But also, I sort of classify your music as grown up pop.
Nerina Pallot:Oh, that's a great compliment. That's what I'm trying to make. I've always been trying to make that I honor shame, the love pop music, but then I unashamedly love what I think I was proper music, you know, because born in the 70s, my mom was a massive music fan. And pop music in the 70s was proper. I mean, the pop band, it was that ABA and the Bee Gees, you know, they weren't just like sheeny. And on the radio. I toured with Barry Gibb a few years ago. And his set was basically number one often number one, often number one, but with extreme musicianship to me, that is, that's perfect music. Prince did that. You know, that's where what I hold up is that marriage of hooks, smart words, with melodies that you just cannot get out of your head, but with incredible musicianship? Well,
Keith Jopling:I mean, you're executing on that very well. I have to say, because listening to this record, I was thinking of Carole King. Leo Sayer. Lovely. I was back on the scene. He's back on the scene. You know, Rod Stewart Gilbert O'Sullivan. Yeah, I
Nerina Pallot:love Guilbeau Sullivan, Judy. Zook. Love JD stay with me. Literally, my sweet spot is in magic FM at 4am you know when you've just done the club run? Yeah. All right.
Keith Jopling:Okay, so that's sort of the late night taxi ride. Now that's all about that. I want to do a playlist about that sort of late night taxi ride home this so you're going to be featuring prominently on that. Alright, so might get back into that and so I can because I want to talk about some songs. But I'm interested in how the songs come to you, because you're combining how you make the choice to combine a lyric with a particular musical style of which you are picking from a smorgasbord. So how does that work?
Nerina Pallot:I don't think I'm very premeditated about those things. And I write a lot more than actually makes the cut. And what tends to go are the premeditated things where I sit down and go, Oh, I really want to get this word in why I really want to get this kind of thing. Honestly, the process for the good songs is I can't tell you, they all come together. It's just a wish I knew how to do it every day. I would do it every day. But generally, I have a dummy lyrical sound or vowel and then a melody. And it just sort of comes out of nowhere mutates.
Keith Jopling:So I mean, Alice at the beach, for example, of which there is you're telling a story there, I think it was, maybe something you read in the news. Yeah. But how did you link that with the kind of a reggae type feel
Nerina Pallot:to it, I mean, the story was one of those weird news stories that literally blew my head off. And I think that coincidence, and I really liked, I liked reportage, a years and years ago, worked with the songwriter. Nothing really came of it. But he used to sit down and read the sun every day to get a headline to put into song titles. And I don't use the sun to do that. But I use other publications to to try and get to the heart of a song really fast. You've got three and a half minutes do you want to tell a story do not talk about so that came from fat and the ready thing was just literally I'm obsessed with this guy called Nick Hakeem. I just think he's the great unsung current soul guy. He's like, an American Louis Taylor. And I just rinse all his records non stop. And he has this sound that nobody else is doing. I mean, go check him out. I think you like him. Yeah, well, and I literally just fell in love with the way he's using groove guitars. And I just wanted to make a track that was slinky, like a stuffed slinky. And also that wasn't like, because the song could have easily become like a Tom diner kind of song, you know, a narrative. It could become very singer songwriter true. And I'm really afraid of this thing. So why three thing because it inevitably means folk. And for the most part, I don't really listen to music, and you're interested. So I was trying to take a song that was very sorry, but make a track around it. That was a group track. So that you didn't you didn't necessarily put the two together. Hopefully I managed that. Oh,
Keith Jopling:yeah. Yeah, for sure. No, I love the groove of it. Also, there's a great guitar solo on Alice at the beach, who plays that?
Nerina Pallot:That's a guy called Carlos Garcia. He's the guitar. He's been playing in my band for seven or eight years. He's much more of a rocker than I am. And I think that juxtaposition works, you know, because if you go too much of one genre, you end up being in sort of soupy sound. And I just kept saying to him, you know, I, I really wanted to get that. Do you remember that? So there was that genre called Quiet Storm in the late 80s, early 90s. It was a radio genre. And there were people like Shadi and Robbie Robertson, and it was a Reich hedonist. That sort of, I don't know how to describe it, like a, like a kind of, I always think of it as like a New Orleans kind of rock guitar field thing.
Keith Jopling:Yeah. It's sort of bursts out like it's suddenly you can't I mean, you're definitely not going to ignore it.
Nerina Pallot:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you don't expect it? Yeah,
Keith Jopling:absolutely. No, I love it. The ultimate longevity is presented with Bowers and Wilkins, a premium British audio brand. Bowers and Wilkins loudspeakers are trusted by some of the world's leading recording studios, including Abbey Road. It's a pleasure to have Bowers and Wilkins supporting the show. Can we stop off at a few more songs from the new album? I'll pick a few of my favorites, but feel free to talk about some of the others as well. We mentioned master builder. So that's interesting to me. So there's definitely a Stevie Wonder influence there. So musically, I go to Stevie Wonder. But lyrically, it's sort of serious message but doesn't take itself too seriously. In the delivery of it. It's sort of a resigned, hey, look, you know, the idiots are in charge, what we're going to do about it, but who's the master builder? Who are you talking to? Is God, okay?
Nerina Pallot:It's a conversation with God and whatever, whatever we think of as God or I usually subscribe to that Voltaire thing. God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him because humans we need something we need to abdicate responsibility to somebody. And then he's like he or she is really useful to pin the blame on it's basically as long as everything's box con, why would it be done?
Keith Jopling:Yeah, but as I say, somehow doesn't fill you with a sense of foreboding or anything that is quite light. Yeah,
Nerina Pallot:I think there's a couple of gospel tracks. I really love that just gospels great for hope in the midst of hell and damnation. So I wanted to bring that element to it that there was always hope, even in the darkness. And I think, hopefully I got that element in it. Which was important to me in terms of the Sonic so that it wasn't this. It could be very morose otherwise, yeah.
Keith Jopling:Well, you went a bit gospel on the Sound and the Fury, didn't you? And I think you've kind of that felt a bit more angry.
Nerina Pallot:I think of that as quite a stark record. That was, you know, a lot of songs from that came from the Lee Rigby murderer who were on the street very close to where I was born, actually. And the biggie, the feeling of fracture that was coming in this country, which is here now. So I think that was a much bleaker record. And yet since
Keith Jopling:Yeah, definitely, it was. So we might check that out later, if we want to go there. Another song. I mean, talk about your auntie Blake the way we are. So this is I just love this. Because, for me, you're doing your rock extraordinarily well. You're doing a great job. So where did that come from?
Nerina Pallot:Exactly what you said I wanted to write what a fool believes by the Doobie Brothers. That's basically why I was a keyboard sound on that is like a really laid up cp 70, which is the old sort of 70s electric piano. And then I've screwed with it a bit. And I've laid over another keyboard on top of it. But it's that just that sort of groove and the and the sort of the harmonies stacked harmonies. And I know that I just this I love your rock. It's like the perfect marriage of musicianship and and being slightly drunk after your fourth Margarita. Yeah, it's
Keith Jopling:back in vogue as well.
Nerina Pallot:It never went away in my house. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:I know what you mean. But I mean, it had its heyday, right? I mean, I actually did. I did a playlist. I was trying to prove a point to Katie Couric, actually, because I think she's a sort of a purveyor of yacht rock. And I was trying to prove a point that it was still here. But I don't have to know because Harry Styles is kind of doing it. Yeah, he's doing quite well out of it. I think
Nerina Pallot:that Phoenix has been quietly flying that flag for the last 20 years as well. You know, there's, they're always there's always somebody there's a band called parcels that I've been hearing tracks from
Keith Jopling:their last album is amazing. Yeah. Yeah. And
Nerina Pallot:that, to me has a lot of yacht rock going on in it. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:it is very much still here. And then I wanted to talk about mama because as you as you said, Your mom was into stuff from the 70s. But the specific inspiration here is Elkie. Brooks. Doesn't get much better than Elkie. Brooks does
Nerina Pallot:it. It's elke via Chris rear, because it's really, her big song for me is the one that Chris rewrote for all of you think it's over.
Keith Jopling:Okay. Yeah. And yeah,
Nerina Pallot:I mean, elke was, I don't know whether people realize how big she was back in the day. She was a really big artist in the late 70s, early 80s. And we had this we bought, actually, the Brits have always had a tradition of big voices, you know, long before Adele came along. And Amy Winehouse came along, we've been cracking out some big singers. And LP was this, she cut her teeth on the live scene. And my mom really loved her records. And I remember seeing her live as a kid and thinking, realizing she was more than this. Because you know, when you're a kid, you think everybody over the age of 25 years old, thinking she was more than this old lady. My mom likes and realizing ship. Well I can say I wanted to sing like that. I
Keith Jopling:think it's one of my earliest music memories is pearl to singer Just hearing that, you know, when it was so high up in the charts, because it's so evocative. You just imagine this lady propped up against the piano in a bar, you know, it's just fantastic. Yeah,
Nerina Pallot:and it's about the journey woman, you know, in, in music or in arts and, and I guess, you know, maybe that stuck with me set my head. I love that I do. Alright, so
Keith Jopling:you've made a really good album. What do you expect these days when you put a record out?
Nerina Pallot:What do I expect to not lose money? Because this was an expensive record, right? This has a 25 piece String Orchestra.
Keith Jopling:Yes, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Last production. Yeah.
Nerina Pallot:I don't walk around. I spend money on my records. And I'm pleased to say that I'm already you know, I'm in I'm in the black which is a lovely feeling. Because when I'm making records, I am a bit sort of like, leave no stone unturned. It took me five years on this one. So in the past when I've been on majors, I've been a nightmare in that sense, like I think they think oh shit, Rick's That's the record. But I just, I know that my fans have got a standard they expect from you know, so now at this point in my career, it's about honoring that contract, you know, I have a very strong contract with my audience, you just been with me for, you know, this is my third decade now industry. And they're as much a part of these records as I am, if that makes sense. So it's when, when I put it out in the world, and as long as they're digging it, and it's, you know, at least half of the record for each fan speaks to them, because I know not. Some fans will love absolutely all of it, and some fans will love part of it. But as long as they hear it and find three or four songs that really connect with them, then that's, that's the job done. And everything else is gravy, because I'm very sensitive. And like, I don't read reviews, because they just screw me up too much. Because and also, the only reviews that really matter are what your fans are telling you about your work
Keith Jopling:100%. And these days, yeah, I mean, the reviews count for nothing in terms of the actual impact on the record being heard, I think. Yeah.
Nerina Pallot:And I just think there is this, I don't know, I feel like this real bond with the people who've been following me because they followed me through thick and thin through moments of and some of them get very excited about when I've had chart success, or when they see me on the TV, or they hear on radio. But for the most part, there are these people who understand that it's been quite a circuitous route to getting all the records made. And so I never, I never want them to feel like I've let them down, I guess.
Keith Jopling:And what is the commercial setup? Because you're essentially self releasing? Or you're on an indie label, which you did your label, right, Idaho.
Nerina Pallot:Yeah, Idaho is my label. And I have a distribution deal through in groups, you're part of the they weren't always part of the university. But they're the last few three years have been acquired by Universal. So yeah, I basically it all starts and ends with me. Cannot abdicate any responsibility. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:which I think you know, it is a big responsibility, especially if you are going to, as you say, Take care to produce the record with orchestrations and good musicians and all of that, because just you're investing a lot in it, but then you are making that money back more directly. So I suppose you can make money from records? Yeah.
Nerina Pallot:And actually, one of the funny things is, I actually think it's a really healthy time for the independent creator. It's in two fold, not just digitally, but physically, we're having a physical resurgence. Even though vinyl The times are very long. If you get it right, you can have a healthy profit margin on vinyl. And you could also CDs and people want physical again, I think. I think the platforms we consume music always ebbed and flowed hadn't either we've always had periods where one thing is overtaken another. I think we all thought that download will be the future. 15 years ago, we never saw streaming coming. So maybe 15 years ago, we did. But I think if you're smart, and you really think about your physical products, and I worked with him on this album, I worked with someone who was initially a fan. He's He's a graphic designer, but we spent a lot of time putting together beautiful physical products. So it wasn't just it wasn't just solo, who's a soothing version extremely album, it was a different beast entirely. Right? So
Keith Jopling:you managed to get this onto vinyl. Does that mean there's like a huge waiting list for vinyl
Nerina Pallot:vinyls coming, I think I've got a three to six month wait on my physical appearing. But CDs are 20 times longer than they have been in the past that I did a project about eight years ago where I did it up every month and we did physical every month. But the lead times then were a lot shorter. So it was doable to turn around within a month. Now it's a bit longer. It's just you then you just be smart. You know, you work with a good distributor, you work with a good production company. And I think in many ways the time is right for the Indies to really because at the end is agile in a way majors have never been able to be agile. And I also think that there is an understanding now amongst communities of consumer I hate to use the word consumers but let's say fans, they understand how the economy works for the independent creator. They're very willing to go down the preorder route. I've never crowdfunded as such but I know that they're very willing to go down that as well and the Patreon models working for a lot of people. So we've actually seen sort of a paradigm shift in the way people are prepared to consume. And I think that's gone hand in hand. through this realization, I love this artists enough to sit on their asses waiting for someone to come and discover them. We're just going out there. We're making films and freedom. Why? Why would anybody go back to work with a major, like, apart from the marketing spend? Yeah,
Keith Jopling:it's great to hear your positivity about it. Because I think you're absolutely right. Like, you know, from a perspective of setting up on your own, just getting your thing going without waiting to be asked or invited, I think is great. But then it's so much work. It is.
Nerina Pallot:Yes, I will not lie, but it depends on who you are. Depends on. I mean, I feel like I'm quite schizophrenic. You know, there's half of me is a totally airy fairy hippie who just likes to mooch around writing songs. But then I also grew up with very self starters, entrepreneurial parents, my mom opened her own business, my dad always did that. And I just saw graph from an early age, you know, I just saw them working 16 hour days and building something. So I also liked that. And I remember my, between my first and second album, in order to just found a tour, I was literally selling CDs out of the boot of my car. And it was hard. But I remember this thrill and this feeling that I was in charge, I was deciding where this car was going, not somebody else.
Keith Jopling:It was really interesting reading up on your career, because it was like a checklist of all the secrets of longevity that I've been discovering through these conversations. You know, back in 2001, you made your first album, it was signed to a major, the album didn't really get off the ground. So you were dropped. And then you went on to make fires, which was an amazing album, which was a commercial and creative success. That's already one of the things on the checklist, because that's happened to so many artists, and it's probably devastating, and disorientating at the time. But so many artists have bounced back and then gone on to make the best record, the one that's really broken through.
Nerina Pallot:Yeah, I think it's because what happens is when you when you're faced with that it's a bit like bereavement, you suddenly realize what's important, what is important. And it sits the wheat from the chaff, you know, and then loads about seven years, you find out who's in it for the phone, you find out who's in it for, you know, anything other than the music. And those of us who keep coming back. We were afflicted really, I mean, it's not always a pleasant thing. We've got this addiction to music. It's, you know, you get to a point in your life where you think I wish I picked something a bit more straightforward. But this is what I do this is this is it. I can't do anything else.
Keith Jopling:It's full commitment. It's like this, or, yeah, yeah. So I suppose that's what it takes in many ways. And then you can deal with the disappointments and the knock backs and the you know, the resilience and all of that. But then, you know, after fires, you did become a pop star. Let's say you had a bit you have your moment of fame. So I mean, how was that? It was,
Nerina Pallot:you know, it was very much the thing, be careful what you wish for, you know, it was interesting. I never died. The thing is, when I was a kid, my ambition, I had two ambitions. One was to get on top of the props, and the other one was to go on Wogan. And just because Kate Bush had done it, that's all just wanted to be Kate Bush when I was little. And then I did both those things, by that time working had a radiation, not TV show. And then you do those things. And you're like, oh, okay, that's it. And it's not. I mean, maybe some people love it. But I understand why people have terrible drug problems, alcohol problems, because a lot of the entertainment industry is, is finding out it's nothing like you thought it would be. And often under insane amounts of pressure from your label and your management who are always seeking your odds effectively. It's very rare that you have the perfect marriage of intense between artists, between the artists and the labor because one is in it for the music and one is in it for the business. And sometimes you meet those people who do have your best interests at heart at the same time where you meet those people you hang on to them for dear life, my publisher. My publisher is one of those guys, and he's been my publisher for 20 years. But you're constantly navigating your expectations, your expectations being sometimes met sometimes exceeded, frequently disappointed. And then also the layer of what other people are expecting you be that your business people and then your fans. So I'm sure if we sat down at oscillators different, successful people. They all have different takes on it. But I, I should imagine that most of them say that in the throes of major success, you're more disorientated than you are anything else. At least that's how it felt to me.
Keith Jopling:Okay, that's interesting, in what way just things not being what you expected or not knowing what was going to happen, or how long it was going to last talked me through the disorientation. Things
Nerina Pallot:like, like people who'd never had the time of day for me before suddenly wanting to be in touch with me. And then also, at the same time, I would do things that I thought were amazing, and I couldn't believe I was getting to do them. And my management went round with a perpetually sour look on their face, because somehow it wasn't quite what they were hoping I was doing. Maybe I should have aimed higher, but just having had the disappointment of a first record where everything that could have gone wrong on it went wrong, to suddenly having five star reviews and Radio One wanting me to be their record of the week. I was like, Man, this is, this is great. But I think because I had had that baptism of fire with my first record, I never expected it to last I was 32 when I had my first hip, I'd already been around the block. I knew that these things were fairly nebulous, so I don't know. Maybe I should have been more careerist. Who knows?
Keith Jopling:Keith there, thanks for listening to the art of longevity. I hope you're enjoying the conversation so far. Please tell your friends, listen back to the other episodes. And don't forget to subscribe on whatever podcast platform you listen to the conversation. It's really interesting, because when you're in the throes of it or probably easy for the artist to get hung up on those kinds of attachments, you know, those kind of little bits of information, whether it's invited on Top of the Pops or played on the radio and all of that? And did you feel like over time, because we're talking here 2022 You releasing independent arms to a loyal audience, you can do your own thing. It's very, very different. So did you have to kind of wean yourself off those attachments? Or did you have to just accept that those things weren't coming around so often? How did you manage to kind of cross the Rubicon?
Nerina Pallot:I think because I had seen it from both sides, I'd had failure first. It was a gradual process, you know. And then my next record was relatively commercial. And then I was starting to write people like Kylie, that I was back on a major for my fourth album. So it sort of gradually went away the commercial thing, it wasn't like an overnight off a cliff. And there were so many mitigating factors, you know, I was already cop years old when I had my first hit. So I don't know that I ever felt anything was going away. That makes sense. It was just changing. But I think the key thing in all of this is, during the time of my third album, I dispensed with traditional management, and I haven't had a traditional management setup ever since. And I base, I basically do it with my husband, he runs a tech company now, but he was a producer and songwriter for a long time. And we both got fed up of putting our destiny in other people's hands. And so we took control of mine and his careers, ourselves and between us, we've always looked after ourselves. And I think that has been super empowering. You know, and, and really, I think that's kept me in a good headspace to keep being creative, funnily
Keith Jopling:enough, it's what because I talked to so many artists and managers starting out now, you know, having to go through all of that treadmill and work so hard and build our socials and all of that we talked about earlier. And you know, most of them want what you've got actually where you've arrived at now they don't want fame and fortune, they got the kind of see that's bound to come with a ride back down at some point. So I might as well build my loyal audience so I can keep making the records I want to make and make a living out of it. That's what musicians want these days. The
Nerina Pallot:thing is, what you need is as few layers between you and your audience as possible, and majors and management, they, I think most of them have a pretty shitty attitude towards fans actually. And the vegan as cash cows, they view them as the customer. They never remember that there's an individual human on the other side of that purchase, who's having a deeply emotional experience with the work you're making. And I was always told off because I was too chatty and gigs or I got to know fans too much. But that I can't do it any other way. Because I've always been a fan. You know what I mean? I've always responded to music in a deeply emotional way. So I think you have to once you have that, you have this amazing, it's a wonderful thing to know that whatever you put out somebody's listening, whether it's five people, or 50,000 people or 5 million people, and you can't lose sight of that you must preserve at all costs, anything else is irrelevant. Otherwise, you can't do what you're doing. Now,
Keith Jopling:it's good to hear when you're playing live, because you're going to be touring this record later. When you look out to your audience, who do you see who are they?
Nerina Pallot:They're really diverse, actually, some of them are like me, you know, middle aged music fans. Some of them are, you know, really young, I've always had, and I had a sync on the normal people show a couple of years ago, that's brought me some younger fans as well, but they're very, very diverse. They seem pretty smart and geeky thing myself, but they're just like, yeah,
Keith Jopling:a geeky is a compliment these days. Yeah. Geeky is good.
Nerina Pallot:It's a stinky audience and they love words. I see the other artists they enjoy and go to see shows over there. And I think okay, this is my sort of area. A lot of my fans have come from I've been really fortunate with support acts I've done over my career, I've had some really planned support, support tools. So you know, I probably picked up a lot of fans when I opened for Suzanne Vega, a few years back, and over the you know, open people up Rufus Wainwright as well. So I've built a very sympathetic audience from other people's fans as well. In between my first and second album, there was a little yahoo group back in the day before real kind of message boards were a thing. And they'd all met at my gigs all over the country. And these people used to just literally sit there holding a vigil for me to ever make a second record. So that I kind of like they're there. You know, those people
Keith Jopling:do like that. I mean, yeah, I can imagine your fans are rooting for you. Because thing is you making really, really good records with great songs. As I said, I mean, I'm now a fan. So I'll see. I'll see you the next show. I mean, I went to a show the other night, and they were, they were Pints of Lager being thrown. And I just thought I could do something a bit more civilized than this.
Nerina Pallot:Yeah, my my crew are very communion, you know, and they're coming for, like one of my favorite artists live, you may not imagine because I make very different records from her. But I'm obsessed with Jill Scott. And whenever jewel plays. Anywhere, I can get some show. I go. And I always say it's like going to church. And I come out. And I feel like I have been touched by something beyond me. My thing is always been when people are in that room, I want them to just feel transported. Yeah, wanting to go home. Feeling a bit better than when they came in that room. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:I think that is the power of live music and a really good performance with craft, you know, does it transcend? A not all shows do it has to be quite a special show that does that.
Nerina Pallot:That comes from experience. I certainly wasn't doing shows like that when I started that. And it comes from, you know, this whole process, I was thinking about longevity before we did this, and I say what is it in it, a lot of it is just keeping going. And then a lot of it I think is really getting to know yourself, you know, and accepting who you are as an artist. And maybe in the first part of our careers as artists, we try on different things. I certainly did that a little bit. And now as you say, I've settled on this grown up cop, which is who what I am. That's what I'm into. I'm not going to pretend to be PJ Harvey, because that is not sort of my thing, you know. And as similar as I think it can be quite prescriptive, where labels want you to go and management wanting to go because they're working to a sort of mood board, aren't they, when they marketing artists, and it's always with reference to what's come before. And I think one of the beauties of keeping going and finding your own little Faro is you suddenly earn the right to be who you are. And occasionally I see an artist saying a bit like the real Palo Alto I once saw who's looking for songs lisco Something in the vein of Marina Palin as like, Oh, finally, I've got my own little league chef built. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:I mean, you've definitely earned that respect in the creative community, which is also nice, right? That is affirmation for what you're doing and the way you do it. Yeah.
Nerina Pallot:And then, you know, every now and then I get to work with people whose work was so important to me and I recently I've been working with Gary Clark, who was a band called Danny Wilson. Yeah. Yeah. And Gary and I've been working together on and off for the last few years. And he knows I'm such a fangirl for his staff. But that was really huge when a writer who influenced me so massively wanted to work with me, that was a really big deal, you know? And that happened. That's happening a few times. And it's there like your songwriting big brothers or sisters, if you know what I mean, the people who show you the way. And so when they say you're doing good kid, that's kind of a big deal. Yeah, kindred
Keith Jopling:spirits, you need those people out there. So as you mentioned, when you did your cover of love will tear us apart. It was on the TV adaptation of normal people, which is big. That's that's a, that's a big thing to get. So how did that come about?
Nerina Pallot:That was so random. That was a live thing that was a few years back. I did a show in Dublin. And I've always loved playing that song live. I just really love that song. And a music supervisor saw me play it live in Dublin, parked it in the back of his brain and thought is really unusual version one day, I'll get something, I can use it for sync. And then out of the blue, quite close to airing, I think he got in touch and said you have a version of that, because I've got to see. And I think it would really work. And so that's how it happened. But that was like quite a few years happened between him seeing the live and then thinking, Oh, that'll work.
Keith Jopling:There's a weird randomness to sink in that way. And as you say, it often happens at the last minute as well, because it's like scrambling around for songs at the end of you know, when the TV shows done. And so you can never plan for something like that. But yeah, it's it's good to see because you never know when you're gonna get the chance to reach a new fan base through something like that. No,
Nerina Pallot:I look at the I mean, there's so many of us, Kate Bush fans who are like weeping tears of joy this week. Because, finally 44 years old, there's a whole new audience.
Keith Jopling:And she's number one. Yeah, she got to number one, when they actually adjusted the chart rules, so they weren't cheating anymore. That makes
Nerina Pallot:me feel so good to be alive in a world where Kate Bush is finally number one. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:it's a great story. I've written a couple of things about that story. Actually, I'll forward them on to you. But it was great to see her acknowledge that as well. Yeah.
Nerina Pallot:Would you say she's, she's definitely one of my heroes. Because she's built her own world. You know, yeah. There's no, she's never gone down a path of she wouldn't do it now, even if she was coming through now. I don't think she would be embracing social media in the way so many artists have to now she has just been single minded about this world that she's made you either into her world or you're not. But those of us who are. We'd go to war for her.
Keith Jopling:Absolutely. Our cake. Yeah. We to the ends of the earth there. Well, yeah, I've got teenage daughters. So they've discovered Hounds of love. And it's fascinating to me, because I've obviously talked to them a lot about the album. Like there is nothing more immersive than that record, particularly the second side of it. Yeah. I just wonder, like, how many of Kate's new audience have gone there, and just, you know, listen to that second side where she's immersed on the water. And it's just this thing of beauty. One of the things that you said is that you would be trying to write your Hounds of love when you're 70
Nerina Pallot:Yeah, cuz that and she keeps trying to write whatever her pinnacle is for her hands blow. She's probably got something she's aiming for that she's got something she's going for. And so I mean, I meant, I mean, has the loving the metaphor sense that that master work that we're always hoping that bests or previous work. And I think that's what gets me out of bed. Probably gets a lot of other artists out of bed, not just musicians, writers, filmmakers, we want to make that perfect thing in and whether we do I didn't know or die trying. So
Keith Jopling:you're still kind of seeking that out. I guess, you know, the interesting challenge for you with doing that, because if I look back on the songs you've written, those songs are there. But they're in a very diverse set of styles. So it's that element of what can you do to meld it into the one cohesive masterpiece? That's the challenge. And
Nerina Pallot:I think the last three albums I've made had been trying to find a way to marry marry what I think my songwriting is quite classic and in structure I'm not I don't think I'm absorbed by the toiling away right song. But I've definitely been trying to experiment with production in the last few records either going for like a mood piece, say lucky. My last record is definitely a mood piece. Sound the fear is much more electronic. This one I feel is sort of bridging the two gaps. And somewhere one day I'm going to hit, hit a place where the whole lot comes together and it's seamless. I just haven't done it.
Keith Jopling:It's only five years between records.
Nerina Pallot:Yeah, that's the whole thing. I mean, that's what longevity is to me is having this aim, you know, this, this sort of net sight, the nebulous, but this mystical endpoint, and you're constantly reaching
Keith Jopling:for it. Yeah, your best work is ahead of you. That's another secret to longevity.
Nerina Pallot:Yes, to be hungry for it, you know, I see someone that Patti Smith is the same, you know, that work won't always be music. I really like writing. I really love writing newsletters and short essays and things. You know, sometimes you take a detour, but you're constantly looking for a walk, or a new way of expressing but being as direct and there's kind of like, I don't know, connecting the best way to connect when you can. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:but you have to embody what you create, don't you because you've tried writing for others. And you've done I mean, you've written for Kylie, when you've tried co writing that didn't really work for you. You've got to put out there what you're creating.
Nerina Pallot:Yeah, and it's that thing of, you know, the moment I sit down to write with other people, for other people, it feels like a massive compromise. It feels like, there's some part of me, that is acknowledging commerce. Look, I'm fully compliant with the commercial world I have to be in order to keep making records. But to bring that into the room, I just think it's a bit dirty. And I've done it once or twice, and it has been moved to, but it's just not for me. And I've just had to accept that about how that's not to say that it is destined. It's just the way my psyche works. I can't quite sit with it. So that's my little crosstable why I'll never be here. But there you go. It is what it is. Well, I
Keith Jopling:could kind of understand it. I mean, I mean, honestly, lucky, you say more of a mood piece. Here a song like heart is the lonely Hunter. You wouldn't want to give that to anybody, would
Nerina Pallot:you? Yeah, that's probably my favorite. Yeah, that's my favorite song I've ever written.
Keith Jopling:Well, I had to look at I thought this must be a covered. I mean, that as a, as a compliment. I thought it was something that was written by Elton or Billy Joel, or something from the 70s. You know, I know you write songs that are up there, but this is a really special song.
Nerina Pallot:Yeah, I just started sort of fell out of me and and now I'd like an hour an afternoon. It's sort of everything I wanted it to be. It's one of those were things we put that live as well. So, sonically, it's not as perfect as I would like to think because I was really fighting some bass issues against the live vocal tape. But you know what, you kind of go everything about this just captured in four minutes. If I fuck with it too much. I'm going to kill it, you know. And so yeah, that that, that's one of those rare moments that all came together.
Keith Jopling:The art of longevity is a team effort. show is produced by the songs of Elio that's me. With project melody.
Unknown:It's audio engineered and edited by audio culture.
Keith Jopling:Our amazing cover up by the wonderful Mick Clark, and original music for the show, is by Andrew James Johnson. If you could get in the musical time machine and go back to any point to fix something, or to redo it. Where would you go?
Nerina Pallot:Why third album?
Keith Jopling:Okay.
Nerina Pallot:My third album, I just got some really, really great songs. It's the first album I produced on my own.
Keith Jopling:Was it the graduate? Graduate? She's the one that's a bit more rocky.
Nerina Pallot:I don't know what it is. Okay,
Keith Jopling:it's the probably the one I didn't check out in your catalog, actually. Yeah,
Nerina Pallot:it's a funny beast. It's me, having experienced commercial success, and wanting to see if I could do it again. And then at the same time fighting that because I was also skewing towards making more creative records. But there's some good writing on it. There's a few songs on it I'm really proud of. But there's also some really quite cynical songs on there, where I'm reaching for something and I'm not we're not quite getting there. And I used to feel that my phone I used to be embarrassed about my first album, but now I look back. And I think, you know, what, why didn't no one's doing? Oh, it's just I was having a go. Give myself a break for that one. But the graduate, I think it was a missed opportunity. And I would probably go back and revisit that I would go back and revisit me at the time as well.
Keith Jopling:It sounds like it was the difficult second album, I know which a third but you know, after the success of fires, because if you're caught between two stools, because you kind of I'm sure that you were being asked and tempted to pull off that same trick again. But then you want you want to kick against that as well. And it's sort of you've got to decide to do one or the other rather than get stuck in the middle.
Nerina Pallot:Yeah, I think I also realize that I don't have a when I can be commercial because I can be so commercial. Sometimes people just say oh, Should I do that, but I am commercial always accidentally. And what happened was that I had to find that out and my labor had to find out and they had to find it out by spending a fortune on seven leads people like Linda Perry and written off. It was all a very expensive misadventure. I learned a lot. I learned loads, I mean, that people will say that about things that didn't work out, but I genuinely did. But I also had to learn who I was. And that that is not who I am.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, I mean, Linda Perry is one of the most successful writers on the planet. But I think she went through the same sort of experience and then decided to settle down and write for others. You know, it's, she found that
Nerina Pallot:early on. Yes, she she navigated her path much sooner than I did. And she was really a really interesting person to work with, you know, because she'd done what I thought I might go on to do. Because I liked the idea of, you know, riding big Uber hits and not having to worry about that. But I don't think I realized how much of an artist I am and how much of a control freak I am and how I can't bear to give a song away. And that kills me. Well,
Keith Jopling:as you say, you can also write commercial songs. I mean, I'm, I know, it doesn't bother you anymore. But I'm wondering why I don't hear Marina pillow on the radio, or that those songs haven't reached the US? Did you ever get a sniff of like the US market? Yeah,
Nerina Pallot:I got flown out tons of times by American labels, I think. And that was all around this time of fires, I think fires. My my head is not remotely representative of my sound, is it where everybody's going to war. It's very representative of me as a writer, but not necessarily production. And I think what happened was that they had this there was a big radio record here in Europe. And America thought, oh, this would be a big radio record. But how do you sell an album, but it's nothing like the symbol. And I think that's ultimately, what was confusing for everybody. But my true fans that my real audience, they know, that's what I'm like, they know that you get an arena Palau, you don't know what this is gonna sound like, you know, the songwriter is going to be a certain standard. But it can be a trip. That doesn't work in commercial world. When you get to major label and where to break an artist in America, you're shelling out seven figures. It's widgets, isn't it? Basically, it's like a it's it's a product based business. So you don't have time for the artists to feel their way into an artist, consumer to feel their way into an artist catalog. It's got to be pretty much done and dusted. And that's why things like Sheeran and Adele works so well on a large scale, because they do what they say on the tin. And people looking for that.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, and the industry machine can just work like a sledgehammer for for that kind of music.
Nerina Pallot:Because why are you going to, you know, flip it on the other side. And occasionally I've thought about running my labor for other artists as well. I probably would if I could find an artist I was prepared to bet the farm on. I haven't yet. But why would you dedicate manpower, people on the ground? You know, that enterprise is massive? If you're not 100%? Sure, something's gonna fly. You know, I don't blame companies for that. But that's the reason I think I'm not I'm not a straightforward, so I never happen. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:you don't fit into a particular lane. As we've said, post genre. Yeah, I'm
Nerina Pallot:pretty sure but you know what? That's where I'm happy. Yeah, totally.
Keith Jopling:Totally. Yeah, I'm sure it's very liberating, because the songwriters just be able to pick a style and make it work. Yeah. And that is freedom. So I know we don't have too long left. You've got some live dates coming up. Who's in your band?
Nerina Pallot:So at the moment, I played a great show, actually, when they're around I'm very lucky to play with a drummer called Louis Right. He's an amazing musician and a basic or it's been fun to and I basically stole them off microkey When Luca when they're not playing shows with Cuban Luca.
Keith Jopling:Okay, so yeah, those guys are good. Yeah, they're really good. And
Nerina Pallot:then, guitarist we've already talked about Carlos Garcia, when I have a bigger band that I also borrow, Michael Keaton, Lucas keibul, Percy Pringle, he's awesome. He's playing the piano solo on the highest level. I always fess up to that because people think it's me. And I have to say, No, I wish it was. And then I use a lot of my sound. You know, the string sound is Sally Herbert. He's done. She's just the Florentine machine record. She's just done the new Bernard Butler record. Sally. I've worked with God 20 odd years. Yeah, a long time. So when I do string section, it's Sally is the string section. So, but they've been my core people for almost a decade now. Okay,
Keith Jopling:well, that's starting to make sense now. Why everything sounds so good.
Nerina Pallot:Thank you. They are credibly musicians.
Keith Jopling:Now Michael Cohen hookahs band. Yeah, I mean, again, you know, on his latest album, right, he's done the same sort of thing. It's got gone back to that 70s classic atmospheric. Yeah. Beautiful. Okay, so this is your seventh album. So and you did all those EPS you did that year of EPS. So your catalog is now extensive. So how do you curate a setlist for a live show? Yes.
Nerina Pallot:Hi. Right. It's really hard. I know what people come to hear, you know, I know. And then generally before a tour, I will canvass the fans and say, Look, there's anything I've neglected over the last few years. But I also have a fairly good working order of all my songs. So I will throw out a request section show. And often the more skewer the better because I love the idea that someone might be hanging back in the back wanting to hear the seventh track or my fifth album that I never played, but I play it there one night. Yeah, that's
Keith Jopling:a nice idea. But you can't do that for everybody, of course, but you can least spread it around a little bit.
Nerina Pallot:Yeah. And then I'll often notice too, I resurrected a couple of tracks off the sandy fury because I thought I'd neglect that a bit. So we were playing Warner to some some of that in the main set. But you know, I respect the people, you know, I play the hits as they were, because that's put a lot of bums on seats. So I would never want to send someone home going, I didn't hear that song. And then I just find a set that works with itself. And
Keith Jopling:I forgot to mention when we talked about, I don't know what I'm doing. But you've written a new theme tune for me, which is fun, which is the album closer. Oh,
Nerina Pallot:thank you. You like it.
Keith Jopling:I love it. Because I love having fun. I mean, it does say at the end of the day, all the sort of bloomie stuff that's going on and the fact that we're being led by idiots, and you know, inflation is going to be 11%. And there's people going into wars still and all that kind of shit that's going on. You've got to be able to find a way. Yeah,
Nerina Pallot:that was right that last summer, you know, when we were just when the lockdowns are finally beginning to ease and we were just lying in the garden one day and watching the sun go down. And, and I just thought, let's just this is the first pause in the in the terribleness that we've had. And I just wanted to sort of acknowledge my little family's way of getting through this weird time, you know, and just to have see joy now types of joy. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:isn't it just
Nerina Pallot:however you find that joy, you've got a, and I feel this keenly. And I've just had a string of losses recently. And it's made me so grateful to be here, we take that simple thing for granted. And it is a miracle to be alive.
Keith Jopling:When you put a new album out, you're a little bit beyond. So what's next?
Nerina Pallot:I'm writing for the next. Yeah, I've got I've got an idea for the next record, actually, and I want to do it fast. I want to I don't know, I think it might be an interview might work as an EP, I think maybe I feel like I need to do something to get out of my system. Five years is a long time to get between records, you know, I need to burn off a few songs, do that, and then touring your term. And then I'll probably start the process of piecing together another long, laborious record, next five years.
Keith Jopling:Well, I still got your version of House of love to create. So yeah, you better better get on with it. I'll say it's been a delight, just checking out and rediscovering you know, some of the songs I knew. But going back to the catalog, there's so much great stuff in there. So I look forward to seeing it live and whatever you do next, and particularly vinyl. So I'm glad you got to release it on vinyl, because you know, it's got that sentiment to it where you want to put it on and just kick back and just immerse.
Nerina Pallot:And I think what I'm going to be doing is doing a reissue of fires never got to be on vinyl, but I'm now in a position to do it myself. So next year, what I'm thinking of doing is vinyl reissue maybe doing coalescing these many of the original plays as I can from that record, and putting on a show where we play it in its entirety as close to the record as possible. Yeah. I think it's time. Yeah,
Keith Jopling:absolutely. All right. I'll be there on the front row.
Nerina Pallot:Thanks. Can you tell I'm loving your podcast, I'm gonna become a regular listener. It's like it's like a kind of companions. I do it myself.
Keith Jopling:Well, Bruce Hornsby on last time you should listen to that one is a great one, because he is just such a legend.
Nerina Pallot:He's the real deal, isn't he? He's like this ridiculous musician. So those guys never go away. Absolutely.
Keith Jopling:Yeah, you have got to be good. Okay, it's been so great to talk to you. As I said, you know, your career just sort of covers the bases in terms of everything I've been discovering. So it's really nice to meet you and talk you through it and seems
Nerina Pallot:kind of fitting on the day I released my 7000 was absolutely
Keith Jopling:yeah, it's perfect. Then I'll continue to enjoy it. So thanks very much for coming on. Thank you, sir. Mr. Great to see you in arena. Take care bye
