The Art of Longevity
Uniquely honest conversations with famous and renowned musicians. We talk about how these artists have navigated the mangle of the music industry to keep on making great music and winning new fans after decades of highs and lows. We dive into past, present and future and discuss business, fandom, creation and collaboration. What defines success in today's music business? From the artist's point of view.
The Guardian: “Making a hit record is tough, but maintaining success is another skill entirely. Music industry executive Keith Jopling explores how bands have kept the creative flame alive in this incisive series”.
The Art of Longevity
The Art of Longevity Season 12, Episode 5: Tom Odell
Now well over a decade in the music industry, Tom Odell is motoring through a successful second phase as an independent artist. His recent albums have leaned into more introspective, personal material that has resonated so much that he now attracts bigger audiences to bigger shows (an arena tour is forthcoming), and continues to grow a very large base of listeners on the streaming platforms.
Indeed, he sits comfortably (and ironically) within Spotify’s elite of Top 200 streaming artists. He is in the 0.01% of working artists, the “Billions Club”, a place he never set out to be but nevertheless, belongs. Odell broke free of the major label system (not his choice at the time but transformational as it turned out) three albums ago, to find a whole new level of creative and commercial success. Most of all, with his seventh studio album A Wonderful Life on the horizon, the singer-songwriter has found a renewed sense of purpose.
His time touring with artists like Billie Eilish and the Lumineers has given him a first-hand glimpse of the very top tier of success in a changed industry, a secret sauce that may well rub off on him more as a result of those experiences. Odell is a hopeful soul. In a world of quantity over quality, 100,000 songs a day and AI about to increase that number ad infinitum, he has a strong idea about where a solution may lie to all the madness. “I really have faith in the listener. I believe people will find the good stuff. And when I look at what’s big right now, most of the time I go, ‘Yeah, that’s really good, that’s why it's big”.
As A Wonderful Life gets closer to release, Odell isn’t looking to chase the numbers, or meet any industry expectations. He’s following the music. “I didn’t get into this to be big,” he says. “I got into it because I love it. And I still do.” His Spotify biog says it all. No flowery press copy, no AI generated summary, no self-penned promo, just 33 million monthly listeners and a simple keyboard smile emoji.
One wonders how far he will go.
Season 12 of The Art of Longevity is Powered by Bang & Olufsen. Long copy can be found on www.songsommelier.com.
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Welcome to Season 12 of The Art of Longevity. I'm your host, Keith Joplin. Each episode features an in-depth conversation with an accomplished, famous or cult musician or band. And over the course of 11 seasons so far, we've established many themes and secrets to a long, thriving career in music. Each and every guest has shared the most incredible, honest insights about their successes and failures. It's a really great way for fans and creators to discover more about these amazing artists. We make each episode a tribute to the artist, and so you'll find on my website the full write-up and a unique artist portrait by the wonderful Mick Clark. The Art of Longevity is brought to you with Bang& Olufsen, celebrating 100 years of crafting products with beautiful sound and stunning design. Tom O'Dell, welcome to The Art of Longevity. Good to be here. Tom, how are you? What's your schedule for the day looking like?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I just did an interview with the Sunday Times, which was nice. Yeah, I've just been doing some promotion for this upcoming album I've got coming out, A Wonderful Life, which comes out in September. And the tour that I'm doing, sort of doing the big old tour and having to do some promotion for that as
SPEAKER_01:well. You've been doing some smaller theatre shows. Is that a warm-up thing? What's the idea behind that? Pretty
SPEAKER_00:random. We started the year, I finished the record in, I think, January, February. And, you know, we sort of sat down with my team and like figuring out what we're going to do to promote the record. And we had this arena tour at the end of the year that was sort of like what we're going to do for the rest of the year. And we put some of these smaller shows in, kind of balance out the bigger ones. But then ended up getting, Billie Eilish ended up offering, after I booked them, she ends up offering this big old tour, which I ended up saying yes to. I mean, I didn't have to think about it. Yeah, you're not going to say no. Yeah, I'm such a big fan. So it was so great. And then also the Lumineers, I ended up connecting with them when he was in London. And he was like, oh, come out on the road in America. And so in the end, I think this year we're doing, I think I told my wife Georgie last year, I said to her, I was like, because I did so much touring last year. I was like, next year, I'm not going to do any touring. apart from October, November. And I think this year I've done the most amount of touring of my entire career. Got to keep the momentum going, Tom. But, you know, every year I'm like, next year will be the year that I don't. It is tricky. I'm sure lots of people have sat here. I've done it since I was 20, 21. And I did shows since I was 14, 15, 16. When I do it and it's really busy in your way and you're on that week three, week four, the calls with your loved ones are beginning to get a little less frequent. I can't deny you do start to resent it. And then you get home and then we always laugh, me and the boys, but three or four weeks pass and you're like, I wish I was on the road. It's this constant. It's
SPEAKER_01:this fun. Yeah. Didn't you do a song about this on the new album? I always want what I can't quite. Yeah. We all feel like that a little bit
SPEAKER_00:sometimes. It's funny, isn't it? Yeah. It depends what time of the day I was to ask myself, you know, do I like touring? Sometimes I love it and sometimes I hate it. It's like, but I think like on that, I basically love it. And I've met artists over the years who I've even like come up with, And you bump into them. And, you know, sort of similar level to me. And I think some of them genuinely actually hate it. Like, I meet musicians that do really actually hate it. And they don't really like playing live. And, you know, they have problems with their voice. And it becomes this sort of torture cycle. Or
SPEAKER_01:it's broken them because they've done too, they just did too much.
SPEAKER_00:Well, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And I would say like, I really love it. But as you get older, it gets a little bit harder, maybe.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Is there a specific difference between the smaller shows and the bigger crowds? Because you like playing to big crowds.
SPEAKER_00:I think I just like playing in general, like big and small, you know. There is a difference, yeah. The thing with bigger shows is you don't really ever get that thing that... I'm sure you've been to lots of times where you're in a club and that atmosphere is electric. It's much harder to get that. But what you don't get, you get lots of other good things, which is a kind of unity. And the strength of 10,000, 15,000 people belonging to a moment, to a song, is profoundly... like moving and particularly a song that I might have written. So, so there's other benefits to it. And, and also it's a bit more accessible, like the bigger venues, like you get a bit more, like I'd say just a wider range of people come to bigger venues. Do you know what I mean? Like you real young people, really old people, like, and there's a beauty to that. Whereas the, you have to really like going to like gigs to want to go to, I don't know, like, Village Underground or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? No, I
SPEAKER_01:do. I mean, because I saw you at the Battersea Arts Centre just the other night. Yeah. And it was like, first of all, it is hardcore fans who've worked to get those tickets. Yeah, yeah, sure. Because there aren't that many tickets. I don't know what capacity it is. I felt like four or five hundred. I
SPEAKER_00:think it was about just under eight hundred.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so a few more than I thought. But, I mean, it had a sense of it being like an old-fashioned review show. You know, you can introduce the band. They can each do a little bit of a stint. You know, and it's... It's a bit of a throwback, and it looked like you really enjoyed that side of it. Oh, I loved it, yeah. I mean, they're so good, the band. Oh, they are. Well, I've got to ask you about this, because we can't obviously go through them one by one, but how did you throw that current band together? How did it come together?
SPEAKER_00:Well, Max, the guitarist, and the bass player. I mean, the bass player I met when I was 19, and I put an advert up in Goldsmiths University, and... no one got back to me apart from max and we've been playing he's been my bass player ever since so 15 years and a couple years later max joins the guitarist and then toby joined in 2014 had a little break for a couple years in the middle yeah on drums yeah and then and then the the wider band with the violinists and two horns they joined three years ago two three years ago yeah but They're phenomenal musicians. I mean, Yelfres Valdez on the trumpet is a very respected Cuban trumpet player, jazz guy. Jazz Lee on the saxophone is an amazing jazz guy. So that must bring another dimension to what you feel you can do. Yeah, they're all. And they're phenomenal musicians. And the more space you give them, the more you get out of it as well. I grew up playing in bands when I was 14, 15. We all have the shared philosophy that live music is live music. We've got to change the set every night. We never do the same set twice. It's always different. And quite often we don't even do the set list. Like that night you came to, it's like we deviate. And it's live. Sometimes it's fast, sometimes it's slow.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that really struck me because it did ebb and flow. Because you've got that big band, you've got some songs... I'll come on to the new album in a second, but you've got some songs that are definitely more, they're rock songs almost, but then it ebbed and flowed. It was the full band, then it was you on the piano, and then you went through that cycle, but it didn't feel like it dropped at all. So did you have to really think about that, or did it just come naturally? In
SPEAKER_00:all honesty, I just feel really confident when I play live. I feel very comfortable on stage. It's something where others have kind of taken breaks, like, we've just always said yes to every live show. And I think we've gotten really good at it. And I think the records I find harder, if I'm being honest with you. I find it really hard to capture what we do live on record. And I've always found it hard. But I always feel live much easier to express what I want to express. And honestly, I'd say when I started my career, I wasn't that good at it. And we've gotten better just by doing it over and over again. I think it's the 10,000 hour thing.
SPEAKER_01:Right. I'll tell you what, I was going to come on to this later, but we might as well chat about it now whilst we're on the subject. And, you know, having gone on the Billie Eilish tour, there's something I'm really curious about now, which is the male performer. And you could see it at Glastonbury. Glastonbury was almost like a social study because you could see Rod Stewart and Jarvis Cocker get up and do their thing and they've done it forever and they love it. They are showmen, down to every move. And true pros, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you look at your generation. I mean, we had 1975 headlining Matt Healy. He looked like a nervous wreck. He got through it, but he kind of did it with irony. And he's faced a bit of flack as well afterwards. And you've got, I mean, Lewis Capaldi came back after all his troubles. And it feels like... There's something going on. Because my generation, I'm a generation ahead of you. I don't want that traditional sense of showmanship and stagecraft to die out. But it feels almost like men are embarrassed to do it in some ways.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I was struck by that line. Actually, I watched the 1975 Glastonbury. I was there. I was struck by that line. He said, you know, this is... a non-ironic guitar solo in 2025. It made me
SPEAKER_01:laugh. And, you know, he said, I'm the greatest songwriter of my generation, and clearly he was being ironic, and he kind of explained that afterwards. But, you know, it felt like he was stepping into really dangerous territory.
SPEAKER_00:I maybe would push back slightly on that, just in the sense of that I do think he is quite, Matt Healy is quite classic. Like, There's these layers of irony and satire. But actually, he is quite a just pretty good, very good showman. And like, you know, he does the looks that, you know, you mentioned Jarvis. He's very charismatic, Matty Healy. And like, I don't know if he's given due credit for the kind of like, They are just a really good band at the end of the day. I've seen them a bunch of times. And I saw them at the O2. And they're just really good. I can't... And I think he is... He's a very striking looking, very good looking guy. And he wears the suit and he looks great. And... You know, he has the Guinness and the... Well, I thought
SPEAKER_01:that was pretty cool, I have to say. The
SPEAKER_00:cigarette. I mean, he's invoking the kind of 70s, you
SPEAKER_01:know. Yeah, no, I get it. I get it. And I agree with everything you've said. But generally, there seems to be something right now with male performers. I feel it anyway. With you, you tread that line because you've got the vulnerability and all of that. That's very modern. But also, you know... Billy Joel and Elton John don't worry about that when they get on stage. They're just going to do their thing. And I just feel like that could die out if we don't have that still. I feel like I do
SPEAKER_00:that showman thing. You do it, yeah. And I don't feel... Look, I think the subject you bring up is interesting. And I think your point that maybe the 1975 have to add this kind of layer of satire in order to be able to do it is an interesting thing maybe I would say like when I watched them at the O2 and he's really able to do it the satire and the irony and it really I found it so good because it was so brave and maybe in a way Glastonbury wasn't able to fully commit to it and so sort of tread the line a little bit but yeah I think it's an interesting subject and I don't know. I don't think broadly enough about different male... I mean, Benson Boone certainly isn't holding back.
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah. Okay, you might have a point there.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, that feels very... Backflips off the piano. Yeah, it feels very kind
SPEAKER_01:of 80s almost. But I feel like that's... part of his thing though as well like he's almost doing it to make a point almost to be the antidote to the point I'm making and also I think it's more a British thing than an American thing maybe
SPEAKER_00:anyway we could get sidetracked we're here to talk about you I love those sorts of you know those conversations it's interesting but yeah I think honestly my take on the 1975 with Glastonbury is like I just thought I was there and I was like, I just thought it was so good to see a rock band smashing it. There's great songs and I would give lots of credit to the rest of the band as well. They're a shit hot band and they play and he got that whole field dancing and they're English and like, fucking hell, I don't know if I'm going to spell it here, but I feel like, you know, we should celebrate when we're you know, as a kind of country, so to speak, that were exporting creative, imaginative bands
SPEAKER_01:like that. You are absolutely spot on because the British rock band is a very rare thing. So we should treasure them when we've got them, not knock them down. I'm totally with you on that. The art of longevity is powered by Bang& Olufsen, the luxury audio brand founded in 1925. For 100 years, Bang& Olufsen has been pushing the boundaries of audio technology and acoustic innovation. Bang& Olufsen's products combine beautiful sound, timeless design, and unrivaled craftsmanship. I want to get on to A Wonderful Life because this is album number seven. for you so you know how this works now what was different about it this time around
SPEAKER_00:definitely so I was touring last year and we did so many shows I think 70 80 shows or something throughout the year maybe 100 I think and I wanted to record a record live and I wanted to do it with my band and so it was really traditional in the way of like I spent 9 months writing it had this big sort of pile of papers of about 18, 19 songs and we turned up in North London at Rack Studios and we went about learning the songs and figuring out the keys and the feeling of the drums and all that and then we recorded it and it's got this kind of live energy I guess to it and I'm so happy to hear the the spirit of my drummer, Toby, on it, and I can feel his essence, and the same with Max's bass. So anyone that's seen us live, I hope they will feel that there's an expression of the live show in the album. Lyrically, it's a whole other thing, and that's something I always feel like is my... my parallel life as a songwriter and as a lyricist is something that has developed over the years and seems to live its own, I say parallel, it's like almost in its alternative reality and much more from the subconscious and I write every day and I have done since I was 16 or something and I say I write, I write you know, like half a page or a page or sometimes three pages or whatever. In recent years, it's tend to become much more like kind of automatic writing. Sometimes it's quite literal, but more often than not, it's a kind of abstracted observation. You're trying to search for something truthful. And I found it's easier to get there than, you know, it being too diaristic and it... More just write what you think, almost don't think. I remember reading a book when I was 20 called The Artist's Way. It's the morning pages. The morning pages, yeah. Which encouraged me to do that. And the same with... I was very into Hemingway when I was young, 21, 22. I read his book Movable Feast, which was about writing. He challenged the reader to... write one truthful line a day. I've always kind of had that as a bit of a mantra. It's like, it's really hard to do when you actually set about it. It's like, write one true line. Okay, well, what's the true line? It's very hard. True to you. Affected by what you want to see, something pretty. How do you say it? Sometimes it's so simple, but it resonates to something within you. It goes, ah, that's the... truth right
SPEAKER_01:there yeah it's getting it out isn't it because it's all in there yeah but once you put it on the page that it's like oh there's a gap there between what's in what's in me and what I've
SPEAKER_00:got on the page yeah there's lines and titles even on this album like can we just go home now baby please that was definitely one of those lines can we just go home now it's like it's taken straight from the notebook and put into a song There's a line in a song called Prayer, which is the third song on the hour or fourth or something. And it was like sitting on a plane, drinking to anesthetize the pain. I don't know where it comes from being there ever since I was young, I guess. But when I'm with my friends, I feel it less. And I remember writing that abstracted from music. When I'm with my friends, I feel it less. It's like they start out in these pages and they sometimes make their way into songs and it's an interesting way of writing and it's pretty sort of weird and esoteric, you know, the process
SPEAKER_01:in a way. It's really interesting listening to songwriters talk about lyrics and I always go back to the book Songwriters on Songwriting. Have you read that book by Paul Volo?
SPEAKER_00:No, I've never read that. It's an amazing book, you should get
SPEAKER_01:it. It's counterintuitive to non-musicians, but it's very consistent that the vast majority of singer-songwriters find the lyrics much harder. You think, well, how can that be? Because you write all these beautiful melodies, but it seems like the melodies just come to you, but the lyrics take work. I mean, that's the kind of general gist of the book. It's amazing how many... And this is the great and the good of songwriting in that book, but that's kind of what they converge on, that idea throughout. I think maybe it's because...
SPEAKER_00:Ultimately, a melody can't be chipped away at by its very nature. Any music that is kind of cerebrally, intellectually made, it tends to, as a rule, be dull. It has to be some intuitive reaction to something or it comes from an instinct, an intuition. And it's very just a brush of... paint across the canvas it almost can't be physically made any other way and I think I think whereas lyrics the thing with songwriting I've always felt is that there's a sense that you know I'm obsessed with reading right I've read since I was a kid and I guess it's my very untouched and protected hobby which I like to do for fun and But the great difference between writing prose and writing songs is that quite often you've only got like 16 lines to say everything you want to say. And you have to be so concise and so economical. I think of great songwriters today like Phoebe Bridges. I think she's phenomenal. Phoebe Bridges, I think she's great. maybe the greatest songwriter of our time. And you listen, it's like Shakespeare because each song is packed. It's like a suitcase of too many clothes in it. You just keep finding more. And I really feel, I've read interviews with her. She takes years to write songs. and you can hear it because you just you keep listening to the song and you keep finding more and it's a bit like with Shakespeare you know all great writers in each paragraph you keep finding more
SPEAKER_01:well Hemingway as well was big into that right it's saying it in as few words as
SPEAKER_00:possible yeah I mean that's the greatest and some people have a gift for it yeah some people don't some people definitely don't I think I've fallen the latter if I'm being honest with you
SPEAKER_01:you spend couple of years, I guess, making an album. You said you had 19, 20 songs and then you kind of whittle it down and put it all together. Do you still believe in the album as a creative
SPEAKER_00:form? Of course, yeah. I think maybe even more so now than ever. I think it's also come back into vogue. I think maybe six years ago it was like Spotify was really sort of proven itself to be the the future model, I think there was a brief existential crisis. I think music as a whole has just become so much more ubiquitous and culturally significant. That's the thing I've noticed since the beginning of my career. I think the value of music has gone up. I think the value of the individual song has gone down.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, that's interesting.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think music in people's lives, the way people use music and the way people are going to gigs, it feels more a part of people's lives than ever. But I think you've got 100,000 songs coming out every day. It's difficult to cut through. But that's why the songs that are really good, I think, do well.
SPEAKER_01:They catch on. I want to agree with you about the album. I've been thinking about this a lot because I'm a big believer in the art form. And I think to some extent, you're right, it is back because artists have wanted to keep it. And, you know, Billie Eilish and Lana Del Rey, all those fabulous artists are album artists. But it still feels like they evaporate a little bit. You know, you put all this blood, sweat and tears into it in years. I've been trying to get my head around, well, how do you define a modern classic? Like, where do we put it?
SPEAKER_00:I think it's there. I mean, I think, like, you know, being on tour with Billie, it's like, her fans know every song from that new album, Hit Me Hard and Soft. And, you know, it's like, who's the girl that just, Olivia Rodrigo, you know, she's released two albums. I think every song on both those albums is like, or Billie's Dreams or something. It's like, I don't know. I think, how do you define a modern classic? I don't know. I guess it's time. Yeah, yeah. Because
SPEAKER_01:it used to be that there weren't that many to choose from. So you knew because it had been a big commercial success and it had five star reviews and people talked about it all the time. And there it is. It goes into folklore. Yeah. But now I think there's just so much that it's hard for us all to slow down and go, yeah, look, that's, you know, and then lists, there were lists everywhere though, you know. I
SPEAKER_00:think one of the things I've noticed is that like the positive side of our times is that I think there's so much good music and I think the quality and the standard of music has got higher for me personally I think recently so much good music coming out every month and I really mean that I'm so I think it's got so much better recently than it was 10 years ago I do think though there is also a lot of imitation and I've noticed that you know you get one original thing coming out that blows me away every month. But then I'll listen to like 10 kind of imitations of something. And I think what's tough is deciphering between the two. Because I think there is, you know, your best place to talk about this, but like, you know, commerce meets art. It's a fragile relationship. And it's forever been fragile. And there's been periods where the cart leads the horse, so to speak, and the commerce starts charging the way. And I think, for me, that's when I become uninterested. I think there is a danger where abundance of music is being rewarded. So the artist that releases the most amount of music, the label that releases the most amount of music, gets the most rewarded because it's just pure market share, right? How the royalty things work. I think the risk... is that we end up in this place, which I think maybe some people might think we're in, where you've just got like 99.9% imitation of art and then like some art
SPEAKER_01:in it. Yeah, I mean, look, I think it's only going to get worse before it gets better. That's the trouble, you know, with AI coming over the hill and all of that. Well, it's here already. Even without
SPEAKER_00:AI, I think it's scary.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:you're right.
SPEAKER_00:But I think, yeah, for AI, it's a whole different conversation. But I think, I do think the interesting aspect is like, I really have faith in the listener. And as a songwriter, I've put out seven albums, loads and loads of songs, right? I totally have faith that the listener en masse almost always tends to find the good stuff. Maybe that's a kind of overly sanguine thing, you know, faith in human beings. But like, I do believe that. And I've seen it time and time again. And, you know, you follow that little artist that doesn't seem to have a following and you feel frustrated for a while. And then all of a sudden, they do get the break. And I don't think it always happens. But when I see some of the, you know, I go through what's big, nine times out of 10, I'm like, it's really good. That's why it's big.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think you're describing the modern way of, now and it's one of the reasons I was so keen to get you on this show is because it feels to me like you've almost had two careers you had your career on a major label
SPEAKER_02:yeah
SPEAKER_01:I know you had some feelings about that, and I can understand exactly why, I think. I mean, I spent some time at Sony Music, I think, when you were still there, and it was like the factory for the sensitive male singer-songwriter. You know, I don't want to put anybody down, but that just felt like the formula that worked for them. You know, they had George Ezra, a massive success. They got Tom Walker, they put him out there. Tom Grennan then came along. They're doing it again with Miles. Yeah. Miles Smith. But you were in there and it didn't feel right for you to be there. Clearly, you've reflected on that since. Obviously, it did you some favors as well. But since then, you're an independent artist and it looks like you're just so much more comfortable there.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I was deeply uncomfortable in those days. Yeah. And I almost shudder when I think about it. It was just so... hard actually like because they I don't know you know that world it's hard to describe it I always don't like thinking about it I feel that the start of my career I worked with some good people there and had some good experiences but it wasn't that long really and I was I had more bad experiences than I had good experiences and there was just a profound lack of respect for for art and for music. And songwriters, artists, there's this kind of expectation for them not only to be creative and talented, but also to have the confidence and the business mind of someone much older and tougher than they are. And I think great artists tend to be impressionable people they tend to be people that let people in and open them they open up your job is to open up your heart to people and to trust people and I think that there were people there that I trusted and I opened up my heart to and it really wasn't you know reciprocated or and it was hard because I guess they've got all that kind of heritage of Columbia Records and all that stuff, but I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and it is an amazing heritage, right? I mean, you still look at it now and you think, wow, Bruce Springsteen is still there, but he's Bruce Springsteen.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think he was there when they would have had any influence on him. It was a long time ago. It almost unrecognizable, so...
SPEAKER_01:The Art of Longevity is brought to you with Bang& Olufsen. Since 1925, Bang& Olufsen has created iconic audio and home entertainment products to the highest standards of sound, craft and design. You can find more about the partnership on our webpages and by signing up to the mailing list where you can then get episodes first plus invitations to events and offers. Finally, we want to get to 100 shows and beyond with The Art of Longevity and the only way we can do that is with your help and advocacy. So please rate, review and share the podcast wherever you can. Back to the conversation to wrap up this episode and we'll be back with another great guest very soon. There was a quote I read quite recently, because I've been thinking about this a lot, and I just wanted to play it back to you, and then I'll tell you who it's from. Not to surprise you, but the quote is the important thing. The most difficult thing artists have to deal with is the crushing difference between what they know they can do with their dream being supported and the reality they have to navigate with the business. It's actually from Sanandra Maitreya, who was Terence Trent Darby. and he's now you know changed his name and you know he's produced many many albums since he had those big albums but I thought that was just so exceptional that quote because of their dream being supported and it just sort of explained the whole compromise situation that you're in yeah nuts yeah I mean it's a
SPEAKER_00:mad old it's a mad business it's nuts it's hard to even like think about it honestly I think I'm still sort of figuring it out but I think that quote kind of says it all. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. It's mad. I think about it, my mind freezes. I don't know why. I think it's because when I think about that time, I also want to be very grateful about it. I mean, Lily Allen signed me when I was 19, 20 years old. And she put a lot of faith in me. It's not like everyone wanted to work with me. and you know I made a record and they put it out and the record did well so but what I would say is like at some point after the first album did well I guess there was such a pressure for the second album to do well and that's you know I think that's where it's tough is and I didn't ever Anyway, it's a long story.
SPEAKER_01:It's probably some PTSD that's there somehow. You have moved on. And I wanted to explore what's different now because as an independent artist, it feels to me like that's a different responsibility because the buck stops with you here. You are the chairman and CEO of Tom O'Dell The Operation.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. And I think the great thing now is where the time I used to spend trying to convince Sony, to let me put something out I now just spend doing it and putting it out and the incredible thing is like the whole label is pretty much run on a WhatsApp group it's really completely free and it's completely led by the art and we're not sat around like we've got to make the numbers work and you know I've definitely done tours in previous years where about going into it you know you suddenly get back and there's like a big old hole with several zeros on it. And you think, you know, and it makes you a bit, you know, it gets you sweating, gripping the table a little bit. And we've, you know, I've been doing this a long time. I've had those moments. So you've got to make that side of it work. But honestly, it is completely led by the art. I make all the visuals and all the music and everything. And I think for that, the arts got better. And I'm really proud of the work we've done over the last few years.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. That must be the most gratifying thing, I guess. Because you've also, you've got the industry accolades. As you say, you've got streaming success and all of that. What gives you the validation now, the affirmation?
SPEAKER_00:I think doing this arena tour and it not being a complete, you know, when we put it on sale, I was so nervous about putting it on sale because I was like, I've just never seen myself as that kind of artist. And I've always seen myself as like, you know, the kind of guy that plays the smaller venues and occasionally sells them out. And I really mean that. Like, I didn't get into this to be big. Like, I got into it. I was a keyboard player in a band. until I was 18, 19. I was a songwriter. That's what I wanted to do. I didn't want to be a singer. I got into the singing because it was just the best way of getting my songs heard. And even when I made my first EP, I just wanted to make the music I wanted to make. And those first few songs, Can't Pretend, Another Love, Heal, on that first album, I 100% wrote them. it was me it was my essence and there was very little kind of corruption really of any of that music and I guess the thing for me is like suddenly it does well and then there's all this expectation for you to be as big as Ed Sheeran or and I never wanted to be like that I never wanted that and I still don't you know it's a weird thing I think the
SPEAKER_01:beauty of it, though, is that once you got away from that, I mean, my ears pricked up with you on Best Day of My Life. Because I thought, hang on a minute, this is very different to what you've done before. The whole album is like that. And it felt as you put it out there, same with Black Friday, which, of course, Billie Eilish is a fan of. You just put out this music that is now it's uncompromising. It's uncompromised and people also really like it. That's the
SPEAKER_00:sweet spot. But I think it has to be uncompromised. I think that's the thing is any compromise with art, you're just self-sabotaging. Best day of my life was, I'm so happy you know that album and you like it. It was like, I remember I'd put out Monsters, the album before, and my wife and I, we went. I was pretty... depressed about the album and I was pretty depressed about the way it was being received and Sony weren't picking up the phone and I went I put it out and we went away traveling and I hadn't done that ever I went traveling for like six weeks my wife and I and I got back and went for lunch with my manager and he was like Columbia don't want to work with you anymore and I was like oh okay so I don't know how long I'd been signed there at that point. 12 years, maybe. I never got a call from them. I never got a text. They subsequently made a fortune out of my songs. And that's just like that. It's over. And I remember thinking, sat there at the lunch, I was like, okay, this can go like two ways. This can either be kind of like the end and... you know, we sort of, I don't know, I'd go and write songs for other people or something like that. Or, like, just go and make exactly, you know, use all that frustration and try and turn it into something wonderful. And, you know, and I went and I just started renting this little studio, which I still rent today and I've made the last three albums in. And it's just upstairs at a place a half an hour from my house, half an hour walk. And, I just bought this piano. I was like, I'm going to make a record with nothing else, just my voice and this piano. I guess a bit like, what's that Springsteen record? It's between The River and Born in the USA, I think. But the idea was to make something uncompromising, and that's what I did. It did well and did okay. It's definitely my favorite record I've ever made, and I'm really proud of it.
SPEAKER_01:I think it's still my favorite lyric of yours, actually. I haven't spent enough time with the new album to know this, because there's something so ambiguous about it. Like, the guy's... Is the protagonist having the best day of his life, or is this really just like he's trying to cheer himself up because he's in a place of deep depression? And it kind of works either way. It
SPEAKER_00:makes more sense if you understand the lyric originally was I think today is the worst day of my life. And so that's what it originally was. And I flipped it to best. And it sort of added this whole other layer of like, what even is this idea of the worst, the best? And I think, you know, this feeling of resignation, being at the bottom, being at, you know, what they say when you hit rock bottom, it's like being, and there's nowhere left to fall. And suddenly you open your eyes and you see the sunset and it hits you with this immense euphoria because you suddenly realize this whole narrative in your head is causing the suffering. And just to be present in a moment, even in the rubble, the last few years have changed my life for a number of reasons I've been on a journey but I really mean this when I say this and it sounds glib and it sounds annoying but every breath is a miracle and you have to it just is like every breath every step every day every morning like every cup of coffee it is all a miracle and once you can remind yourself that every day it really changes your life like it because we live our lives as if you're going to do that thing forever. And you're going to walk that street and you're going to wave to your neighbor a million more times. And you're not. It's all for night. Everything is for night. I guess it's the kind of stoicism, you know. But I think gratitude is like so vital. And I think our minds and our modern life is almost has no capacity or any room for it. to really
SPEAKER_01:feel gratitude. I mean, I think this is why you are connecting with vast swathes of young fans because that's what they're really relating to, I think. Because when you're young, it can feel like, oh my God, now I'm at a university or whatever, even if I didn't get to university. How do I get out of this path I'm on? You do. But, you know, it feels like it's taking a long time at the time. But actually, you know, you're going to get moments where it will flip. I mean, I think as a musician, you had that moment actually when you were dropped, though.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So I've seen that so many times. In fact, you know, I do say now to artists, you know, if you get dropped, that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it might be the best thing that ever happened to you. You know, I guess aging seems to me to be Net negative. But the one positive of it is that I think if you can be present enough, you can start to see that there's patterns. And I think quite often the thing that you think might be the worst ever thing that has happened to you or you're worried might happen to you could in fact happen. you know, be the inverse and be the greatest and be the beginning of something. And not just the beginning, but just even just a reminder that you don't need anything, you know. But it has a lot of that stuff. And, you know, the last five years, in all honesty, before my troubles with my label, I was really, in 2018, 19, you know, I can't, I don't like to be too hyper, about this because everyone struggles. But I did have a real rough time in my head. I wasn't dealing with stuff and it just got worse and worse. And I was having really, really bad anxiety. But it sounds anxiety, oh, you had anxiety, but it was crippling. It was like to the point that I couldn't leave the house and I was having panic attacks, physical panic attacks every day. And I ended up in a hospital. And I sort of got through it, but it didn't go away. And what I would say is a lot of this stuff and these past few records I've made, Black Friday, Wonderful Life, Best Day of My Life, Monsters to some extent, is a documentation of someone trying to feel better and to get better. Yeah, yeah. in varying degrees of success. Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:yeah, for sure, for sure. I think listening to those four albums in your catalogue, because I've done that in recent days, is actually that journey. And it's, I mean, yeah, sure, I mean, A Wonderful Life, it's got the ambiguity, of course, but it does feel like, oh, we're getting a less worried, dare I say, more cheerful version of Tom O'Dell.
SPEAKER_00:It is, dare I say, cheerful, and I think there's a, you know, the last song on the album is called The End of Suffering. And, you know, obviously very ambitious title. But there is a kind of weird, I guess, cyclical moment where I feel like on that song, lyrically at least, I was sort of meeting my younger self. And it's like at the end of suffering, there's a door, there is everything, there's nothing, and there is everything and more. And, you know, there's these kind of visions throughout that song of like, You know, there's a room, there's a child's crayon drawing of the moon. I light my cigarette, I lean against the wall. I feel that resignation that there's nowhere really left to fall. And this feeling that the thing I was looking for has always been there. It doesn't mean I've reached anywhere. Lots of like everyone, I have bad days, I have grumpy days. I'm useless to be around sometimes. Sometimes I'm good to be around. But I have made some progress. And I do think the lyrical journey has as well. And I was very touched by what you said a few moments ago about why people might be interested. And I think there is... into my music recently and I think you know I am very open about I guess in the same way you know it's musings it's thinking out loud it's trying to figure it out in the same way that I love you know when I listen to Leonard Cohen and it's you know it's him trying to figure it out and that's for me what is there's something so alleviating when I hear someone else trying to figure it out
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's a great singer-songwriter tradition. I mean, I actually love that song. And it gave me 70s vibes, though. It brought to mind Gilbert O'Sullivan for some weird reason. Although it kind of gets a bit radiohead towards the end. Sorry to compare, but that's how
SPEAKER_00:you reference something when you hear it. First time those two reference points have ever been used in tandem. Exactly,
SPEAKER_01:yeah. You've brought them together nicely. But yeah, I love the way the album closes like that. So in a sense, it's also... it leaves you with the expectation of where you're going to go next, which is a really nice way to end a record.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I do feel, without saying, you know, you always get these bands and artists like, this
SPEAKER_01:is
SPEAKER_00:going to be my last record. Oh, now who says that? I'm retiring. Chris Martin? Yeah. I do feel this sense of like, there is at least some, a suit that I can hang up in the wardrobe after this. So, you know, file away a few notebooks and not have to open them again I don't know
SPEAKER_01:well I mean I think as well as much as I love albums and we've talked about that is when you're independent you get to your seventh album and you are still successful you can break out of the cycle somewhat so you can start to explore doing different things and taking your time a bit more
SPEAKER_00:yeah there's other things like I've met a lot of artists like young artists along the way and I would love to like maybe next year or year after just like just work on someone else's music maybe for a bit or because the thing about being a solo artist is ultimately like you know you write the theme tune sing the theme tune it's like the whole thing and it is kind of like it's exhausting and I guess it's nice to you know I was doing the Billy tour one of the most wonderful things about it is like being a support act Because she sold all the tickets. Like, you know, people come and we just get to kind of like be a nice bonus for the crowd. Pressure off. But the pressure's took me off. And it really is like a different experience. It's like, and I really enjoy, enjoyed it. And I'm not naturally like, you know, it took me some years of therapy to figure this out. Like, I'm not naturally like, the extrovert. Like I don't, I have to put on a suit to go on stage and be that person. And when I'm not on stage, I feel these days I'm, you know, but always I'm not like in a, you know, big table in a pub, everyone drinking and joking, like is not where I thrive. I tend to say, you know, I just not naturally that person, the group person. And so, I would love to play like second fiddle to someone and do that. Or even just play piano for someone.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Is there someone that you'd love to collaborate with, not that we're predicting anything? Oh,
SPEAKER_00:yeah, there is. I mean, I love, I've worked a little bit with Abigail from Last Dinner Party. Like, we've done a bit of writing together and, you know, we're friends. And I think she's phenomenal. Like, I've watched them loads. And also, I think the band is amazing. I think she is incredible. She reminds me of Stevie Nicks or something. And I think she's amazingly creative. And when we've worked together, it's really worked. So I'd love to do stuff with her. I'd also love to do stuff with Zaha de Zagazan, who is a French artist who we've been working together on and off for the last couple of years. Just a few times. But I'm so fond of her. I'm so fond of her work. I would love to do something with her. Because she's at the start of her... Well, both of those artists are at the
SPEAKER_01:start of their career. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, you know, Last Dinner Party, as we were talking about earlier, just to start off with that sort of unapologetic rock band. Yeah. But where do you go from there? It's just really fascinating to see where they will go next, to develop that. And there's a bit of responsibility on them for bringing it back. And I'm really glad that it has come back. I'm so glad guitars are back. I'm thrilled. But then it's got to go somewhere else now. So that's really interesting. She sent me a bunch of her
SPEAKER_00:songs. They're new songs. And they're phenomenal. So I think they're going to do a good job. We were at some festival the other day. literally like two weeks ago, and she came up and sang with me. And our dressing room was opposite theirs. Us in the band, we're so dull these days. We love running. It's not rock and roll. I like reading. The boys go to the gym and stuff. They were on the other side, literally opposite us. And they're like, you know, it's like 2pm and they're like getting out the Sauvignon Blanc and rolling up cigarettes and they're not playing for another three hours. And I was just like, yeah, that's what we were doing when we were 23. And I was like, that's what is the, you know, what I love is when I see people enjoying it. Because the one thing, like, I do think I come across a bit, and I say this not as a criticism, more as an observation, is I see people amongst young folk that are successful and not successful, they don't enjoy it. And they go to the gig and it's all about how many tickets you've sold and where you are on the chart. And you don't have the drink because you're worried you're going to look puffy or something. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I get it though. It's the age of worry in that sense. And they might say, well, it's easy for you to... To say, stop worrying. But then that
SPEAKER_00:is the message. I'm glorifying drinking. Whatever about drinking, it's not the be all and end all. But I actually just mean enjoyment. What I love about Abigail is when I've shared the stage with her, she fucking loves it. She wants to be there and she wants to own it. And it's the same with Zaho. It's the same with Billie. When Billie is on that stage, you can see she is... In her element. But sometimes, and I've come across people and I'm like, I don't know if you're enjoying it. And maybe I'm half talking to myself here because I always prided myself on loving it. And maybe along the way, it is easy to lose sight of that. But I definitely have my love now for it. I absolutely adore it.
SPEAKER_01:It's
SPEAKER_00:coming
SPEAKER_01:across. It really is. Tom, I've got to let you go reluctantly because we could talk about this stuff all day. But I'll let you go. I'll just wish you all the best with A Wonderful Life. It's a great record. I'm excited to see what happens when you get it out there. And enjoy the tour. I don't think you've sold it out, so go and enjoy it. Thank you very much, yeah. And we'll see you again soon.
