The Art of Longevity Episode 87: Karnivool

In an era dominated by playlists, TikTok, Reels and Shorts, reduced attention spans and endless content, Karnivool doubled down on the album as a complete statement - the album as the antidote. As Drew Goddard says. “In the age of content, I thought it was even more important to release an album.”

For Karnivool, the album remains more than a collection of tracks. It is a long-form quest (in this case, lasting 12 years), both for the band and the listener. “I struggle with focus,” Goddard explains, “so committing to a long-form thing was important. Something that could hold people captive for a little bit. Stop them in their tracks.”

At this point, it hits hard just how much work goes into the making of an album, especially one as epic as In Verses. With each passing year, Karnivool fans' patience was tested and their expectations, inevitably, notched upwards. 

I don’t think anyone will be disappointed, but perhaps it would help for the band to crack on towards the next album…soonish. 

Despite the long wait, the band insists they weren’t consciously responding to external pressure. “We weren’t really thinking about the stakes,” Jon Stockman says. “We were so embroiled in the process itself.” 

After 12 years, the achievement is not just the record itself. “We’re still friends,” Stockman notes. “We’re still enjoying it.” 

In a career defined by patience and precision, simply arriving together for a new album and what many may see as a career-defining tour, may be Karnivool’s greatest artistic statement yet. And that may be an understatement. 

The Art of Longevity is powered by Bang & Olufsen
[full article on website]

Transcript

Keith Jopling 0:00

Welcome to season 12 of The Art of Longevity. I'm your host, Keith Jopley. Each episode features an in-depth conversation with an accomplished, famous, or cult musician or band. And over the course of 11 seasons so far, we've established many themes and secrets to a long, thriving career in music. Each and every guest has shared the most incredible, honest insights about their successes and failures. It's a really great way for fans and creators to discover more about these amazing artists. We make each episode a tribute to the artist, and so you'll find on my website the full write-up and a unique artist portrait by the wonderful Mick Clark. The Art of Longevity is brought to you with Bang and Olifson, celebrating 100 years of crafting products with beautiful sound and stunning design. How are you both? And how come you're in London town, this fine city of ours?

Speaker 1 1:14

We're over here playing shows at the moment, and yeah, we've just come from Prague, haven't we?

Speaker 1:21

Yes, yeah. We did a brutal assault. And yeah, we're just discussing that we're we're we're more diet brutal. Yeah, like brutal light. Um in a very heavy lineup, but we're well received there. That was that was great. In a in a amazing location in a in a fortress.

Keith Jopling 1:39

There are some amazing festivals in Europe. Yeah, incredible. That's where I go to my festivals. I don't I don't spend too much time over here. You know, there's just the locations in Europe are just the best.

Speaker 1:50

Yeah. Even here too, we've got Arctangent Festival coming up. Uh not until we go to Dublin, our first Irish trip uh for a show at the Academy there. But yeah, the um the festivals here are are great. We're we're slowly losing all of our festivals over in Australia. But there's not many left now. Um a lot of smaller boutique ones coming through, which is great, you know, but a lot of the bigger ones have since uh stopped. Evaporated. What's happened? Just run out of money? Time? I don't know. Possibly money. Probably the insurance costs sort of gone up, maybe, is a part of it. I don't I don't know, to be honest.

Keith Jopling 2:26

But it's um I I mean festivals have been going down like nine pins here as well. I mean, but there were, I think, hundreds to begin with. I think we had over three hundred in the UK at one point. By the way, while you while you're um staying in London, I don't know how much time you have, but have you guys checked out this uh scale exhibition?

Speaker 1 2:47

We actually can't because it it's we got in too late yesterday to be able to go to it before it closed. And I think it um is only open Wednesday to Sunday. And we fly it tomorrow.

Speaker 3:03

Kane, the hibit who who is uh yeah, the the the photographer behind the exhibition is a dear friend of ours, and his his journey of that getting that off the ground has almost mirrored our journey of finishing our album. Yeah.

Keith Jopling 3:18

Yeah, yeah. It's a it was a 12-year project.

Speaker 3:21

Yeah. So we we were both high-fiving, you know, each other to finishing and getting this uh seemingly never-ending project finished. So Okay.

Keith Jopling 3:31

I think it's touring as well, right? So it's gonna go to Oz. I think he's gonna do something in New York, I hope. But to open it, it was fantastic. Yeah, I went along. It's incredible. It really is incredible. I think there are only a hundred on display. It took me three hours to get round. Kane showed me round for half of it, but there are 300 in total that he's done over over 12 years. So yeah, so it's interesting parallel with your uh with the making of your album Inverses, which we are going to talk about. And I guess it's fantastic to hear that it is completed. This is ground that you would have gone over, I'm sure, many times. You may be slightly bored of this conversation, but uh just on behalf of the longevity conversation, usually we we sort of talk about what qualifies a band for a chat like this, and and we've had this kind of vague definition of four albums in or ten years, and you have just made your fourth album and you're celebrating your twentieth anniversary. What's taken so long?

Speaker 1 4:41

Well, in a way, we've always kind of taken a bit longer than most people, most other bands, I guess, to start with. Uh we were running a like an Olympic cycle there for a while, getting getting one out every four years. Um up until asymmetry. Um and then it yeah, from from after that it was it's been twelve. So uh yeah, a lot has happened in that time. A lot of things have um you know contributed to being that long. Um a lot of uh a lot of it is also just our understanding of what's going on around you know, with with the process as well and in our own personal lives. Um you know, a lot of things have we've had big changes in responsibilities as well. Like uh three of us have got you know, kids. Three three of the members have kids, myself included, recently. But um uh I think it's we can't really do much about it as a whole, but individually. We might think we might be able to, but I think when you are in a group, you know, we all move at the same you know, we all move forward at the same time. So Or stay still. Or stay still, or abandon, you know, the path. Yeah, I think I think we've we've definitely tried uh so much in the in previous years to sort of enhance our productivity, you know, getting to results quicker.

Speaker 6:27

Don't really know. Like it was just it was a just a hu a big challenge. Uh it's a it's a big challenge in itself uh writing a carnival album, completing it especially. Uh and then, you know, a smattering of of l a lot of personal l life challenges coming into the mix, you know. And maybe just a little bit of that, you know, we'd uh I don't know, you know, after I think it's a lot longer than twenty years I've been in this band now, but it's um it only got to that point, you know, after the so many years where it's like, ah, okay, I can sort of see why bands can sort of trip up and and fail. And, you know, uh before that I was sort of like, I can do this forever. I s still I I'm still there now. But uh I only got to that point about 2016 where I was like, ah, okay, this is yeah, this is hard now. This is really this is really challenging. I thought it was challenging in previous albums, but yeah. Um it just it it took yeah, a few f failed attempts and or just really just digging our heels in and and trying everything and g not giving up really was the I mean the main thing that got it finished in the end. I mean the failed attempts was it what weren't you happy with? It's not that we weren't happy with with anything. It was just the the ability to be able to to complete things. It felt like um there was too much noise in my life going on to be able to and responsibilities, you know, in order of just making money or too too many distractions and um just the inability to really focus solely on uh on on completing the the album. And I I remembered that you can't be one foot in. You have to be really like it's just it it it it takes up all my my faculties to Yeah, all resources.

Keith Jopling 8:24

Well, quality over quantity is a good mantra.

Speaker 8:27

Yeah, I think so.

Keith Jopling 8:28

I mean it's it's a different take on things because we've had a bit of an ongoing theme for a couple of seasons of this podcast about the album. The album still as a body of work, as a as an art form, as something that artists want to complete. Because it's had it's been assaulted in recent years from you know digital platforms being focused on the song and the playlist and all of that. But one of the things I've talked with artists a lot about is you know, you spend two to four years making an album, then you put it out there, and it seems to quickly evaporate. It's like a few months of promo and then it's gone because there's just so much music out there now. So, in a way, this is an antidote to doing that. It raises the stakes a little bit. But to make an album every decade or so, I mean, the fan base is to to say the least, hungry for this. Were you aware that you were raising the stakes with every kind of passing year? How did it how did it feel in a way?

Speaker 1 9:33

Not so much w I don't think we were as conscious of that uh external uh perspective of what was going on, uh because we were so embroiled in the process itself. But what was going on, I think, for a lot of us was just trying to realise what it was important in order to make a record in the first place, because when we talk about like not being right okay with the songs or certain parts or things like that, it was actually other things outside of that, like the headspace that m some of us were in, um, in terms of being able to be present, I guess, for what was required because it it really does take all of us to be firing cylinders in the engine, I I suppose. And yeah, that's just one of those aspects of the band that we hadn't really encountered before. You know, it it had had just been about decision making and like uh agreeing on what we were gonna do f from song to song or or w what we liked uh, you know, in a democratic kind of way. But yeah, this was more about us m being able to do it, I think.

Speaker 10:52

We didn't know it was gonna be an album the whole time either, you know. There was talk of it maybe being oh, maybe we just release an EP or two EPs or Which we're kind of glad it didn't after this long, especially. We were very grateful. We sort of went through everything, you know, with all our ideas and things with Forester and we went, yes. And just the whole, you know, the climate we're in of just yeah, the singles and leaking, you know, just releasing single by single and just small content, the the age of content, you know, I thought it was m even more important to to release an album. Um, because I struggle with with um keeping my the uh the the ADHD thing too, and just, you know, I'm I'm definitely on on the spectrum there. So I think the whole process for me was important to keep me, you know, focused on a on a on a long-form challenge in itself that hopefully is uh you know instilled in the music somehow that it can hold some people, you know, captive um, you know, and and stop them in their tracks for a little bit and you know and enjoy just stop for a little bit and yeah.

Keith Jopling 12:02

Yeah, yeah, no, I I love that. And I I think you're right. Part of that conversation about the album as body of work has been that it it is in resurgence because of that. I mean whether people are, you know, lying on the sofa or the floor for 45 minutes at a time and just listening is is another thing, but I think there is through vinyl in particular and just the rising interest in in music now as a cultural thing, that there there seems to be sort of more interest in making a statement. So yeah, I'm glad you stuck to it.

Speaker 12:36

Yeah, yeah. To me, uh it's like a it is uh just a collection of songs as well as being an album, too. So I don't know if that makes any sense. But I think it's uh you know, the there was less um worry about how it all was gonna flow. You know, we only just sort of got the the the the track listing, you know, and certain time with the other records would be doing these sort of intricate little, you know, bridging pieces and all of that sort of stuff. And the whole streaming age has definitely changed that. We're looking at doing some of that, but now it's you know, you can do that on on vinyl. So we're looking at doing like this certain things that overlap and and you know, do it's slightly different on the vinyl than it is to streaming. That's sort of it's uh completely changed what you can do for an album and all those little funky little Absolutely.

Keith Jopling 13:24

I mean vinyl's had a resurgence since I mean certainly since Asymmetry 2013. It's really had a resurgence since then. Everything's changed, but vinyl's one of those things. Are you looking forward to seeing in verses in the vinyl format? I mean, have you got something special lined up for that?

Jon Stockman 13:44

Like Drew said, um yeah, that there is more going on between the songs itself. Uh it's it's more how we intended it.

Drew Goddard 13:52

Yeah. It's subtle. There's subtle differences. And I mean, Forrester mixed it differently for vinyl, you know. He he'd uh treated the songs in the sonic way, anyway, in a different way for vinyl. Yeah. But yeah, definitely looking forward to to holding something tangible and going, oh, this is the result of, you know, the last however many years, you know.

Keith Jopling 14:16

The Art of Longevity is powered by Bang'n Olofsen, the luxury audio brand founded in 1925. For 100 years, Bang' Olifson has been pushing the boundaries of audio technology and acoustic innovation. Bang Olifson's products combine beautiful sound, timeless design, and unrivalled craftsmanship. Let's stop off at a few songs if I could. I've had this record on heavy rotation for a couple of days now, and I I love it, so congratulations. So it's a really great album. And a couple of songs songs just sort of leapt out at me. Conversations did, because I just love the mood of it. It's one of those tracks that kind of gets under your skin a little bit and becomes a bit of a kind of you carry it around. It's a it's a bit of an earworm. So just tell me a little bit about how that song came about and how you got it down.

Speaker 15:15

Yeah, conversations. So um originally called the working title was Suspended Reanimation because it was a part of a little trio with animation and reanimation that they all stemmed off uh an initial sort of seed of an idea. And um so when we were working through these songs, we could we didn't know if it was going to be part of that song or if it was its own thing. We we quickly realized the the start of conversations it was uh uh made from a jam, just a uh an improv jam from that. Doo-doo-doo. There's three notes that sort of repeat as a loop. We ended up going, that was a great jam that just sort of had this like sort of beginning. It sort of sounded like the song was starting in the middle of the song or something. That's like an interesting way to start a a song. And so we just uh got Ian to sing the first thing that came into his head over that, basically, which is really what what came out on the record. Some of the lyrics were obviously um finessed and and changed to to to to make sense. But uh yeah, and then I think it went through quite a few different uh variations and structures. It's the arrangement that really takes a lot of the time with us finalizing arrangements. And in the case of that, there's uh conversations uh had there were so many different versions kicking around.

Speaker 1 16:37

Uh kind of like a light bulb before it's a light bulb, maybe. Maybe not that many, but yeah.

Speaker 16:42

Yeah. Oh, that's got so much potential, that song. But where do you start? There's each one of these songs, you know it it has a different, completely different structure, but they all had something about it that made sense.

Speaker 1 17:01

And you know, as I Yeah, it was a bit of a puzzle with no edges.

Speaker 17:04

So Yeah, that's a puzzle with no edges is a good way to describe it, actually.

Keith Jopling 17:09

And it sort of sits it sits between animation and reanimation, didn't it? So I did uh it's great to hear you say it was sort of almost part of a a trilogy. I I hadn't heard it in that way yet. But uh next time I listen.

Speaker 1 17:21

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, they're kind of all related, all all coming from the same thing, all those three, yeah.

Speaker 17:27

And yeah, that uh when you when you said it um yeah sort of got under your skin, I think it did for me too, where I I I I yeah, I uh remember sort of reacting very uh in a in a negative way to when the first mix came back that I was uh maybe I had some expectations around it that um I ended up you know, it was probably just the headspace I was in when I heard it or where I was, you know, it was sort of just my my JBL boom box in the back of the car, you know, with the car noise and everything. And oh my god, it's not right. And I'm texting the guys going, I don't know if it's gonna we can't put it on the record like this, and yeah, which uh I think gave you a bit of anxiety hearing that, um John. So we I ended up going to the studio and sort of calming myself down a bit and listening to it and going, like, okay, that's this there's this going like logically, what what isn't making sense? And I did sort of when I got put all my notes down and sent it to Forrester and the guys and then listened to it again, I managed to put myself in an objective um listener scenario somehow, I think, and uh I sort of felt like I was a carnival fan suddenly. Um and yeah, hearing it like for the seventh time and it just clicking finally and going, ah, okay, no, that's it's actually really good.

Keith Jopling 18:44

You're okay with it.

Speaker 1 18:45

Yeah, yeah. I had a similar thing with Salvo Salvo, so Okay.

Keith Jopling 18:50

Which is the closing track, I think. Yeah, okay, so it's another good one. What was your issue with that one?

Speaker 1 18:56

I just uh initially I think because we had sort of framed that one out for a while since like 2016, and in that time I had sort of fallen out with the ending a bit, and I just felt like there was some other thing that needed to happen. Um, maybe a bit more like a November rain sort of dark, darker ending type thing. Because I felt like the front end was so happy, but I I realized it was the other way. It was kind of like more forlorn and sad.

Speaker 19:33

I mean, there's still time if you want to get like a drone out in the desert with me playing, you know, playing the little the boss guitar line. Yeah, sure. Flying over the top. Outside of the city.

Keith Jopling 19:43

I'm loving this conversation. This is like, you know, it's a perfectionist thread seems to be lingering in the room somewhere here. Um So with animation and reanimation, you've been playing those tracks for quite a while live. When you put them down in the studio, was that a challenge to get them to s to sound the way you wanted them to sound in the recording?

Speaker 20:06

I think it was probably it's more of a challenge with animation animation, particularly when we play it live to to make it sound like the recording, yeah. Or, you know, to to make it m hit like we we think it it did on the recording. Like it the recording version uh didn't it felt like it sort of fell into place very quickly, whereas live it still feels like it we're trying to find the groove with it, you know. But there's some some songs that I think maybe we just sort of need to treat it a little bit differently in the live environment. I think that's gonna be a bit of a challenge for for for a few of the songs. Um, you know, we can't really tour with bagpipes, you know. So um there's gonna be challenges happening for a few of the songs. But yeah, well it was it was a challenge. Reanimation was one that um took a few goes, didn't it? I mean, it's having a song around for so long and playing it live, you know, and it evolving over such a long period of time.

Speaker 1 21:08

And even the live performance is changing, you know, there's versions of early versions of playing some of these songs which are very different to how they've ended up. Or, you know, at least they've got bits missing or extra bits that are no longer there of or stayed in or moved on or whatever. So that's kind of like the the the kind of testing ground, it's almost like the simulation ground for us to see it hear it live sometimes to know if it's right. And um some songs get a bit more speeder testing, I guess. Because um we finish them before the album has to come out. So yeah, I think reanimation definitely has like the in its final version I mean we didn't do a live with that solo over that.

Speaker 21:56

That was a last minute edition, it was the first time we finished it. Love the solo. Worth the price of admission on its own, that's solo. Yeah, which was yeah. I don't know if you're aware, but that was um Guthrie Govin. No, I'm not aware of that. Okay, tell me about him. Yeah. So well uh yeah, there was a couple of points where Guthrie sort of came into the picture. Um one was actually speaking of the bagpipes at the end of Salva. I heard a uh an interview with um I don't know with Rick Biado talking to Hans Zimmer and Hans was talking about how someone complimented him on the on the bagpipe sound on the on the Dune soundtrack and he said, Oh thank you, but that's that's not real bagpipes, that's scuthry uh using the IR, you know, uh uh impulse response, they call it, on the on the axe effects to mimic, you know, the bagpipes. Yeah. Um which he does a similar thing with the violin. Yes. Which we saw him do live. Yeah. So during the recording process we actually went and we saw the aristocrats um they invited us down and as Forrester's worked with them too.

Speaker 1 23:00

Yeah. We um got to hang out and talk and Brian brought us back and met Marcus and Guthrie. I'd met Guthrie once before, but he you know, I asked him about that the violin sound, and he mentioned that he'd captured an IR of the the cavity of a violin body. Much like you capture a cabsim, or probably actually more like you capture a reverb space because it's ba essentially what it is, and had somehow converted that into making his guitar sound exactly like a violin. Um which is incredible. So yeah, that was that was part of it. And then um I think because of Forrester's connection, right? Um when when we were looking at reanimation.

Speaker 23:43

Yeah, I tried a bunch of things in the middle, you know, I was like, we think we need some kind of lead part, and I don't definitely don't consider myself a a lead guitarist, you know, someone like Guthrie to me is like a true virtuoso, you know. I'm like, well what what if we actually, you know, did the old like I'm a bit of a beatle's nut, so my my, you know, the equivalent was like, you know, I remember George asked, you know, well, let's just get Eric to do it, you know. I can't do that.

Keith Jopling 24:11

So Well, it's very cool. Comes out very well. I I mean I I love a guitar solo without too many notes in it.

Speaker 24:18

And that was the uh that was kind of the only um brief, wasn't it? Was some, you know, just something that with some held notes and you know, that's so expressive, yeah.

Keith Jopling 24:30

And you know, if we wanted more notes, you could do that. Uh you could do that too. Yeah. The other song I wanted to talk about just for now, unless you want to talk about any of the songs from the album as well, is Ayazora. Is that how to pronounce it?

Speaker 24:43

Think so. But you better check with um someone who's Japanese, I think.

Keith Jopling 24:46

Because it's which has a yeah, a really anthemic chorus, which you've always had that in your arsenal, that melody, particularly with with the chorus, but you've it feels like you've leaned into that even more on the Inversus album. Is that was that a discussion? Was that an accident? Was it by design?

Speaker 1 25:08

I would say if I was like my first thinking on that would just be after asymmetry, where we were leaning kind of outside of the that territory in particular, trying to push it as as dissonant harmony.

Speaker 25:25

Yeah, that I th I feel like that's just a natural reflex to sort of So I wasn't disgust, but yeah, it was probably a natural course.

Keith Jopling 25:32

That kind of reaction.

Speaker 25:33

Yeah. But uh it it occurred to me early on, I was like, wow, we've got some really strong melody, you know, and more consonant sort of um harmony going on and a more fertile ground for some just letting Ian do what he does very well and um some challenging moments for him as well in some of the keys, you know, as he's he's g your voice changes, you know, over twelve years. So um, you know, so that I know that uh the song drone and and there's some moments that get get quite high for for, you know, and he was trying to encourage us to bring the the key down, and I'm sort of oh I can't really go any lower on the on the baritone. That's his notes are gonna get a little bit too sloppy, mate. So we might have to just really And he yeah, to his credit, he's like, oh okay. Well, yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 26:24

There was just some weird moments when where they were he his voice had changed, but there's always like regions in your in your throat, I think, from talking to him. I mean, I'm not a vocalist, but where you're sort of shifting between these zones where you can't quite hit something with the right power. It's a little bit it's not necessarily too high. It's just a weird spot, and it was a bit of that that sh it it had sort of uh moved into territory for in that in that sense, so he sort of figured it out, basically.

Speaker 26:58

Yeah, Azor is probably my that's my probably my favorite um as well as conversations. But uh yeah. I think that's the only one that gave me goosebumps continuously, which is a great gauge, you know. I was like, okay, at least we've got one goosebump inducing one.

Keith Jopling 27:12

I have to say, I mean, just going back and just getting familiar with your catalogue as sort of preparation for this, and it's part of the genre as well, isn't it? To kind of um get to that point where you know the hairs on the back of the neck kind of stand up for the listener. The point of the music that you make is to find those thrills, isn't it? Yeah. Goosebum detector, sort of thing. Yeah. Is that is that a competitive thing in your genre or within the band? I mean, how do you uh that how would you contextualize it?

Speaker 1 27:48

I'd say it's a yeah, it's basically a um kind of way of gauging when we're in the right when we've come up with something that we feel good enough that feel is good enough for um something we want to write, it's it's always it's kind of has that cap that sort of capability to um invoke that kind of reaction from us initially.

Speaker 28:13

I think that um Zaura sort of means from what we understand, blue sky. And there you know, there's uh the that sort of that sound at the start that comes in in the middle when he's saying, um, you know, waiting for the great escape. There's sort of, you know, there's some sort of being trapped in in your thoughts or some feeling like there's no way out, and you know, working towards that blue sky moment. So I think it was after we put that song away for a while and I came back to it after a long break, and Kenny's his little lyric, It's so profound, you find a way out, and it sort of almost brought me to tears, you know, and I'm like, okay, we can do this, you know, because it gave me those goosebumps and the hairs on the back of the neck, and it was that that was a key moment for me hearing that after a long break and going, Oh, we actually got that song a lot further than I had thought in in my head, you know, and that was enough sort of a kick to go less we got to, you know, along with a lot going back on tour and realizing people are still interested and we still love it too, you know, around all around that same time was Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Speaker 1 29:14

Yeah, it did it does kind of sum up the experience of the last twelve years in a way that our own sort of uh difficulties of breaking through the barrier of like decision paralysis, amongst other things, maybe a bit of posture syndrome every now and again.

Speaker 29:34

Trevor Burrus Losing confidence and, you know, when you when you Yeah, all that stuff that I think m most artists probably struggle with. Um yeah, questioning yourself. Even like I was reading Guthrie's emails that like with the time difference, you know, I'd wake up to all these different versions and him just questioning it and going, I dunno, I don't know, mate, but he's the first version sounded amazing.

Keith Jopling 29:58

The art of longevity is brought to you with Bang' Olifson. Since 1925, Bang' Ollison has created iconic audio and home entertainment products to the highest standards of sound, craft, and design. You can find more about the partnership on our web pages and by signing up to the mailing list where you can then get episodes first plus invitations to events and offerings. Finally, we want to get to 100 shows and beyond with the art of longevity, and the only way we can do that is with your help and advocacy. So please rate, review, and share the podcast wherever you can. Back to the conversation to wrap up this episode, and we'll be back with another great guest very soon. When you put this record out there, what what are you guys gonna do? Are you gonna lean into the promotion of it? You're obviously gonna take it on tour and enjoy playing it live. But this this record having taken so long to make has got to live and breathe for quite a while. What's your view on that? Do you just put it out and let the universe just take over?

Speaker 31:06

To a degree, I think you've Yeah, I mean you you definitely it's out of our hands, you know. But we do everything we can to sort of walk with it. I don't know, I've always seen it as like something that yeah, you've released and it's you know, it's it's like it's like it, you know, in the same way as sort of giving birth to a I know that analogy is used all the time, but uh that that's its own entity, you know, is that that's that's a you have a little human or or an album, it feels like it's a um it's something that you yeah, you've you've got a it's a living, breathing thing that um and people have their own relationship to it that you have no control over. So but we can go out and yeah, we'll we'll we'll promote it. I mean I mean it's gonna be a challenge to learn how to play a lot of the songs live, so I'm looking forward to that challenge and and also just continuing to make music with with these guys. I'm I'm looking forward to the future for sure. It's it's got me excited and and you know confident again that we can we can do this um after you know a lot of questioning my own sanity.

Keith Jopling 32:15

Well, I mean the timing feels pretty good to me. Since I guess the the hyper growth of streaming, it was always gonna be, I think, a challenging time for for want of a better word, rock and the various forms of rock, whether you want to met various forms of metal for sure, feel like they were ghettoized for quite a long time. And streaming was all about rap and pop and Latin, and then it was about country. But it sort of is having a bit of a moment. It feels like, you know, Deftones are riding high, tool are you know, really sort of back in the culture. And newer bands like Turnstar as well are kind of bringing you know that kind of hardcore sound to it it to a crossover audience. So your timing is is pretty good, finally. Oh, we totally meant that.

Speaker 33:09

It was all part of the plan.

Keith Jopling 33:11

I mean, what's the route to getting a a record-like inverse is out there? Do you feel like you know you have channels that you can go to, gatekeepers that you can go to? Where is the the media, if you like, for a rock album these days?

Speaker 33:28

It's always been the live environment for us in touring, and you know, it's I think it's where the penny drops for a lot of people. Um and that's how the only way we really know how to, you know, push and promote the music and and and I love playing to to new audiences and and people that have never heard the band or, you know. Um I like that challenge as well of trying to win over, like think back to, you know, the early gigs of just playing the bar staff, you know, and like uh the so even if it's just the bar staff I want them to really dig it and go tell their friends, you know. And it's so much so much room to to move that it's like it's feels like a lot of people don't know of the band and the you know, and maybe the uh the slightly silly band names uh to put them off, you know from checking it out. It's a terrible band name, good band.

Speaker 1 34:29

But it is the live environment, I think. It's yeah, it's it's because it's the audience is is subconsciously part of the performance. And it's that exchange I think that really is is the is the best uh version of the song to to hear is to be part of it.

Keith Jopling 34:50

So uh a world tour beckons? I mean are you when are you gonna are you gonna make it back to the US this time around? What what's in the schedule?

Speaker 34:59

We'd like to make it back to the US if we if we if we can, but there's um I know there's certain challenges involved in in that, but we're we're we're gonna try.

Speaker 1 35:08

Um the world has changed a lot since COVID as well, and political landscapes affect everything. Especially when you're a band coming from Australia. The costs that are involved to get anywhere is they always kind of start at a pretty high benchmark. I can remember there's been times like where we've come over to you know, to to play something in say like in 2023 um and like just uh exchange rates because of the the the Ukraine-Russia thing just like made a lot uh harder.

Keith Jopling 35:47

But and touring was always the way well the common wisdom was that touring is the way that you make money. Right. But now that is feels like it's breaking as well.

Speaker 1 35:58

So Yeah, but you have to tour smarter. That's it's just it's just presented challenges that need different solutions as well. But you you're right, yeah, it definitely has impacted that. Like I mean, we've we've had some uh really big changes in our in the way that we do things live and what we're using live, you know. I mean I'd I'd love to be using the pedal board that I used five years ago, but but it's pretty big, weighs a lot. So it's now just my it's just what I use in the studio. It's like my little sound lab and and I'm able to get the same sort of thing happening with the cortex, cord cortex I'm using. You're using AxeFax. They're just like uh you know, the d the the digital sort of processing and and uh algorithms, uh programming, the design of sort of digital um emulations, it's really come a long way. And it ultimately I'm pretty s I'm more than satisfied that I can go from something like the one system to another and feel like I don't I'm not compromising the most important things, which is it kind of comes down to the way that they translate for mainly two songs, Simple Boy and Goliath. If I can maintain that, the integrity that I have with those songs, then it's it it gets a pass for me. But um you know, it's also quite nice having a a pedal board that's you know, like a little doormat instead of a surfboard. It's just it just requires adapting. You have to you have to be able to adapt with things because I mean every time we've even before, um like uh when we released Asymmetry, because we were like four years apart, the music industry was changing every time significantly. Like you know, it things are always different for us when we come come back out, you know, from hibernation, so to speak. You know, the world looks very different.

Keith Jopling 38:05

Yeah.

Speaker 1 38:07

Um so yeah, we've but luckily we've got, you know, the the means to sort of make it work. And you know, we've all we've got great crew. We've got great crew that really lean into like helping us to, you know, do that better at times as well.

Keith Jopling 38:23

I know you really enjoyed going out to India and you talked about that a bit as as being a bit of a surprise for you guys as well when you got out there. Is there is there any other place that you're gonna go this time or that you want to go and play live?

Speaker 38:36

South America, hopefully we can get down there. And I mean we get enough messages from from from Chile, especially, but uh Brazil and a lot of places in South America, so hopefully we can get down to play for for the peeps down there. But I mean Japan's another one we've never been there. I was gonna say I mean we've never I've never been to Japan. I've always wanted to go. Trevor Burrus, Jr. I mean Indonesia, you know, it's in the neighborhood for us and it's um another place I haven't been to. Yeah. Oh.

Speaker 1 39:01

Um and Antarctica.

Keith Jopling 39:02

Then we've done all the continents, you know, those those ones we just have got a a streaming audience in those countries, presumably. I mean Japan, you must have a a pretty sizable audience. I'm not sure to be honest.

Speaker 1 39:14

I'm not really sure because like I after going to India as well, I'm I realised that not every country runs in the same fashion. Like when you talk about streaming and and that kind of thing. Exactly, yeah. It would have but but when we did first get there, it was very different to the rest of the world. Like, you know, it was around ringtones, like it was that's how people sold music was. Rington when you're not picking up the phone. That's that was the music industry.

Speaker 39:41

When you call, you know, when you get a song instead of the dialing. Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 39:44

That's that's sort of how I remember ringtones. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this wasn't even ring, it was the call waiting music as it's going ding, this song would come on while you're waiting for the other person to answer. That was that was it.

Speaker 39:58

Yeah, okay. Music got around or the people found out about music was through that in India at the time. Yeah.

Speaker 1 40:03

And that's how bands sold their music. And also the number of bands like west like f outside of India was very small that were had had access to that market. Like I think I remember talking to someone, I think they were at the label um in uh India the first time in Mumbai and asked them about how we were there, basically. Like I was curious, and he sort of mentioned that, you know, that the the f there were only four types of music in India. There's traditional Indian Bollywood and heavy metal and techno because heavy metal and techno didn't have a language barrier because techno often didn't have you know vocals and heavy metal, well I mean if you can read some s sometimes you can't even read you know the the name of the band because it's the way that's written, but like hearing what the vocalists are saying, it's just like a lot of guttural you know, things that sort of like didn't really matter so much, which and that's not like me that's not my assessment of it. That's just the logic that he gave me. But um so yeah, it you know, and since that time, you know, so I'm not sure what Japanese music industry all the or is is even like. I mean, it used to be that you have to what throw like an extra two bonus songs, which was kind of hard for us because you know we were Yeah. That would have been a little tougher for you, I guess. Yeah, yeah. It's not like we had spare ones put it in cards.

Keith Jopling 41:31

You could do you could do some of those uh uh multiple versions of conversations or something and release.

Speaker 41:36

Yeah, but there's definitely some alternate versions that we could.

Keith Jopling 41:39

Well, look, we don't we don't have too long left. I assume you guys are Black Sabbath fans. I just wanted to get your reflections on the death of Ozzie Osborne recently and how that sort of thing affects you individually and as a as a band as well.

Speaker 41:54

I mean, yeah. Uh well it's yeah, undeniable the influence that the the band and Ozzy have had. Um I just see them as, yeah, like the like our grandparents, you know, like of what we do. Um and we we owe a lot to to that band. Um and to to Aussie, you know. Um rest in peace.

Speaker 1 42:16

Yeah, like that was such a form like such a I don't know, what what do you how can you sum up what you owe?

Keith Jopling 42:25

Well, absolutely, he managed to get the gig done. Yeah, incredible. I guess the the tributes were just coming from so far and wide in society, it made you I mean a lot of it or part of it was to do with his celebrity beyond the music, but it did make you think of for a guy who kind of started out very much they they kind of designed metal in a way, didn't they? Yeah, kind of invented, yeah, in a sense, particularly for you know for that brand of metal, was universally popular.

Speaker 1 42:58

I I also wondered whether like I I I feel like a lot of it might have also owed to just who he was as a person, the way he outside of the music, like he was obviously a good dude.

Keith Jopling 43:12

It was the second gig I ever saw was uh Ozzy Osborne at the NEC in Birmingham, supported by Rat. Oh well I went to see Rat actually, but yeah, Ozzy was pretty good. Yeah. Alright, so look, we gotta finish up, guys, but I I wanted to ask you, what are you most proud of with Carnival?

Speaker 43:35

Well, so we we just we got that album done, really, for me. It's that uh um and we're s we're still going and we're we're friends.

Speaker 1 43:42

Yeah, I would we're enjoying it. I would I would second that. I think like in terms of I I would be most proud of the fact that we got to this point with this record, just because it's undeniably the the most challenging aspect that we've had in the career. Um that that we survived all the difficulties associated with it, which you know, are vast. I think I think between us, you know, you know, between the band members, um we've all had different challenges, you know, and and we've all had to sort of uh overcome certain things in that last twelve years or um work on things or get to the bottom of things, get through things and um I think it it's it's kind of still doesn't feel like we've finished it, I think. But um like I'm looking forward to hearing it fresh for the first time because I haven't actually listened to it since we um I sort of tapped out about it a couple of months ago. Because I just had to let go of you know it's the only way to sort of step be able to step back 'cause all these things that you never remember worrying about and like con questioning and thinking they're a priority that you just need to like let go of until the noise is is gone and so you can just listen without it. So I'm I'm looking forward to that. But I think I'll feel the weight of that achievement then when when I do that.

Keith Jopling 45:16

Well I'd say congratulations because uh I think when it comes out you're gonna be uh d delighted with the response to it and uh you'll enjoy playing it live. I hope you feel like it's been worth it. I'm sure you will find that and uh appreciate that. Uh meantime I want to thank you John and Drew for coming on to the Art of Longevity and uh wish you well for enjoy Island and enjoy touring the album most of all enjoy putting it out there and just just feeling the reaction to it. Thanks for having us