The Art of Longevity Season 13, Episode 4: The Twilight Sad

After seven years between records, The Twilight Sad have returned with It’s the Long Goodbye, an album forged through grief, survival and renewal. Was it all worth it? Well, listen for yourselves. And do keep in mind that the album ranks 4th so far on the Album of the Year 2026 best-of league. Not that we advocate music as a competition. Just saying, some albums are clearly worth the work. 

Speaking to David Freer on this episode of The Art of Longevity Podcast, vocalist James Graham and guitarist Andy MacFarlane reflect on the emotional weight behind the record, the realities of touring in modern music, and how the band have managed to stay creatively vital two decades into their career. And, not that they would ever mention it themselves, it’s a known fact that we are talking about Robert Smith’s favourite band. On the band’s Spotify profile is Robert’s testimony: “They are the best band playing the best songs – consistently brilliant, emotional, intense, inspiring, entertaining.” 

The Scottish band’s sixth album arrived after what Graham describes as an intensely difficult period, shaped by personal loss and the long emotional aftermath of caring for his mother through Alzheimer’s disease. Yet despite the darkness surrounding its themes, there is a sense of optimism running through both the music and the band themselves. It transpires this is their most uplifting and dare we say, accessible record to date. And it may well be their best (not that we advocate a band should always compete with itself). 

Now, who is going to argue with Robert Smith then, a?

What a fantastic band on a creative roll. Jump on and get your fxxks back. 

The Art of Longevity Season 13 is powered by Bang & Olufsen. 

The book of the podcast, Riding the Rollercoaster, is now available. 

Transcript

Keith Jopling 0:00

Hello and welcome back to The Art of Longevity, season 13. Some amazing guests. We have Oliver Arnold, Ladytron, Midge Or, some others lining up that I am very excited about. Amazing artists with fascinating careers. In the conversations this season, we'll be testing out some of the themes of longevity in music as written in the book Riding the Roller Coaster. Out May the 12th, 2026, you can pre-order it now from all online bookshops, and you can buy it in the shops from May 12th. This season leads up to the book's release, so look out for more news on that and your invitation to the launch party. We'll also be doing another Art of Longevity live with Bang and Olofson, so look out for that. Okay, let's get going. Season 13 of the Art of Longevity.

David Freer 1:11

So, James and Andy, welcome to the Art of Longevity. Thank you for joining us. Thanks for having us. Yeah, cheers. Thank you for having us. I'm really excited to hear your perspective on this podcast series we're talking about here. And but before we get into that, you guys have just launched an album and you're on the end of a tour at the moment. So tell us more about that.

James Graham 1:29

Yeah, our sixth album, the It's the Long Goodbye, came out on March the 27th. And from about the week before that, we've been out. Me and Andy have been doing in-stores, and then we went straight into practising for the tour, and we've just finished a European tour. And then last night was our first night in Bristol for the UK tour. And tonight we play the roundhouse in London. So yeah, it's been quite a bit of a hectic two months. I mean seven years to make the record, but the past two months has been like more insane than a full new band and full new everything, you know.

Andy MacFarlane 2:06

So it's it's exciting for us as well, because it's yeah, it's just completely gone.

David Freer 2:10

You happy with how it's gone?

Andy MacFarlane 2:11

Oh, yes, excellent. Like, yeah, it's we're actually having fun. I don't know what that's all about.

David Freer 2:17

And then is that not always the case when you're on too?

Speaker 4 2:19

It's no, not always. It's tough. Like, it's like as much as it might seem like the like the best life and fun and all that. I'm 41 now, you know. Like I I haven't been drinking on this tour, I've been just been taking it really seriously because people are paying money to see us, and I've got to make sure I can sing properly and look after myself mentally and physically. In doing that, I've actually managed to enjoy it more than when I was out getting smashed all the time and things like that. It's just getting older, I suppose, but also just really want to do as good as I possibly can. But I was quite anxious about doing it again, like like without all those things that can kind of we all know what they do. Yeah, yeah. Um but yeah, I've I've I've I've lived vicariously through everybody else having a good time. Yeah, I got it. But I'm I'm I'm I I'm real I'm really happy and I'm having a great time playing live. The band are yeah, we're having a good uh it's a brand new band and it could have been a disaster, but it's not, it's actually we're having a great time. It clicked, yeah, it didn't. Yeah, luckily, yeah, we all got on really well. Yeah, we do, uh it's really uh four people that have just came in to their their musical careers at a point when they needed something that was that meant something and we could throw ourselves at and we all have the same attitude. That's great. I I'm buzzing about it.

David Freer 3:35

I've often wondered um how hard it is to translate studio songs, songs that you record in a studio, I guess, with lots of production and stuff like that, to that live setting. And that must be hard for the band that's recorded itself, let alone other musicians you're bringing into the mix. How do how do you do that? Is that a practice thing that you do? Is it just hours and hours of practice? Pretty much.

Andy MacFarlane 3:56

Well, we've always thought to try and make the live show a bit different from you know the ri actual recorded album. But now it's just um yeah, it's just a lot of practice and just getting out and playing gigs, you know. There's it's and it just eventually just kind of comes together, do you know? Um we've got like computers and stuff doing we extra bits and pieces now as well. But it's it's good having it just back down to a four-piece though, do you know? Like just like with just having four people in the band keeps it simple. And yeah, well, we just did like a did like four weeks of rehearsals, maybe down in Brighton. Yeah.

James Graham 4:34

Uh Andy and I have now played press pretty much every kind of gig you could ever play, like in every kind of different space. So and I don't know, stepping outside of the band a little bit, like in life, like I've went through stuff that is much harder than jumping up on a stage and singing some songs. So it doesn't affect me as much as it used to. I used to be really nervous, hence why I would have a drink before the gig and really like I don't know, try and loosen myself up to the point of uh like getting rid of the anxiety. But now I uh a bit more experienced and just go it's a gig, get up there and do what you you're you're meant to do instead of stressing out about it so much. So I'm kind of I'm in a different mind space about playing gigs and on tour. It's like it's like the travelling's hard, the sleeping in different beds, the just uh just pe moving around. It's all quite hard for me to be honest, but that one hour and a half on stage, that's the time that you're meant to enjoy it. And I'm more enjoying that more than anything now, and I'm really focused on it. And it's great. I'm really enjoying it. You're surrounded by people that love you, I suppose, and love your music. So it's not like you're fighting against it. Yeah, okay. No, I mean Andy and I have like we've we've been through so much together now, and we know each other kind of inside and out, when to leave each other alone, when to like and like talk to each other and Simone and Kat are like they've toured and played the biggest stages in the world as well. So we all we all know what we're we're doing and how not to annoy each other and give each other space, and yeah, it's all about the gig and not about the traveling and going and having parties and all that, it's about the gigs the most important. And the performance and getting that right. Yeah, I I warm up all day to pretty much to get ready for the gig instead of anything else, because if people are paying money to come and see you and spending their time, it's you gotta get it right, you know.

David Freer 6:26

It's a good way to think about it. And and you guys are obviously performing with a band tonight and a lot of the tour, but you said you performed different types of performances. You've done you did a strip back tour before, didn't you? I think that's right.

Andy MacFarlane 6:36

Yeah, we do like um well, James and myself will do like it's just like yeah, just like one guitar, one vocal, and then some drum machine and sand stuff going on in the background. But then we'll also do just like acoustic and vocals, you know. It's like it's so we're doing that for the in-store stuff, and you'd be playing churches and things like that. It's just we're able to adapt it to yeah, whatever kind of size, really.

Speaker 4 6:58

Do the big loud noisy gigs, but we can also do, like you said, strip back to the point where we show kind of showcase the songwriting.

David Freer 7:05

I think your music works really well for that as well. It's amazing that it can it still has that kind of integrity no matter what, you know.

Speaker 4 7:11

I think we've learned that over time. Like the more we've done it, we've like, oh yeah, you know what, this this this is another site to us that people like, and we've kind of leaned into it a bit, and I think we will still keep leaning into it because it's variety's the spice of life and all that.

David Freer 7:25

One of the things that really brought me to your music and made me love it even more was that it was a performance you guys did in Paisley Abbey with uh Royal Scottish. That was stressful, I think. Yeah, I'm sure it was, but it's amazing.

Speaker 4 7:38

What a performance.

Andy MacFarlane 7:39

Thank you. Well, yeah, that was John the conductor that put that together. John John. Sorry, don't worry. But yeah, we didn't. There was like no rehearsals or anything. It was no, it was like we How was the music written for the orchestra? How did they do that? Well, the conductor, we I kind of went through the music with him and he he kind of arranged it and like just gave it to them.

David Freer 8:00

Well, that arrangement was awesome with yourself.

Speaker 4 8:04

We had one hour rehearsal at the sound check with them. Yeah, and it was you would never know.

David Freer 8:10

Really?

Speaker 4 8:10

You'd never know it was the one of the most stressful afternoons of our life. Like it was just because like after a like after the hour, all the orchest orchestra members just down tools because they're on but the union. Yeah.

Andy MacFarlane 8:26

There's like 98 of them or something like that.

David Freer 8:28

There's a lot of them. It's phenomenal. I think I'd download I didn't I couldn't believe I missed it as a gig, but I downloaded it on Bandcamp. I think there was a version you did there. Um and you got you might not want to know this if it's a if it's a stressful experience, but it's it's on YouTube. Yeah, yeah, we got it. But it's um it's awesome.

Speaker 4 8:46

No, I'm glad it exists. Yeah, for all that stress, it's it's totally worth it. And to even I think it showed us that we that how much our our music can work with that kind of like an orchestra and stuff. And um once we got over the PTSD of that night, uh we might try it again someday. That's what I was gonna ask.

David Freer 9:04

Yeah, because it's your songs seem to suit that. There they're so some of them are so big and epic that having that orchestra just slots into them. It doesn't change the song as much. The emotion is just a bit more rehearsal next to more. So we'd love to do it again if we don't if it doesn't kill us. The other thing, I mean, I guess this shows the versatility of the songs you guys have written. But another one of my favourites is the the remix album you guys did. And you must have worked with some really interesting people that, but you know, this the fact that your songs can exist stripped back in acoustic guitar, live show like you've got the band now, with an orchestra, and then remixed. I mean, it was awesome that remix album.

Andy MacFarlane 9:41

Yeah, with the liars and horrors and broken cord, yeah, broken cord and optimo, I think. Optimo, yeah, the the Twitch one was brilliant. Alphabet, wasn't it? It was Alphabet.

Speaker 4 9:54

Yeah, I'm so glad that we got to to work with him because such an institute at Glasgow. Yeah, yeah. Bless him, Keith.

David Freer 10:01

Yeah, that was last year he passed away, sadly. But the outpouring of kind of love for him was amazing, wasn't it?

Andy MacFarlane 10:06

Yeah, I know. We used to go to the sub club when we were young and still listening to like optimum, like they've got their own uh radio show as well and NTS and stuff like that. So, you know, we'd always be kind of keeping in touch with what they're doing. There's got a wee label, I think, as well. But yeah, it was amazing that he was able to do that back then. It's just great to, I don't know, look back and have someday of that calibre doing something for you, do you know?

Speaker 4 10:30

I think the the for us, one of the biggest remixes that's not on that record, but is the Andrew Wetherall remix of uh videograms from our fifth record. That is really special for us to have that with him, you know.

Andy MacFarlane 10:43

Yeah, because he was gonna do a remix for that remix album, but because that was the album he'd worked on with us in the studio, so but then the schedules and whatever. So then when the yeah, the videograms one came around it was speaking to him on the phone, and he was like, Have you ripped off the human league for this? And I was like, Again, so he made it sound even more like the human league, do you know? It worked well in guys like that.

Speaker 4 11:11

You could like he was telling us what I think he was like, I'm gonna play this at in my set at Berlin or something. Yeah, he would play it at club nights and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. As young guys that would grow up listening to the things, the work that he'd he'd done, and just not knowing of what how amazing his work was, to know that he was out there. Well, one, he wanted to do it, and two, he was out there playing it. And he picked that song as well, didn't he? He was the one I wanted. I want to pick that Human League song.

David Freer 11:37

Wow. I'm gonna listen to that after the show. Listen to this podcast, put it on afterwards. Yeah. I'd like to talk a little bit more about your latest album. That's all right. I know um I and my wife and I moved down about 10 years ago to care for my mother-in-law who had early onset Alzheimer's. Um, and um I recognize a lot of the emotions and subject matter you talk about there, um, obviously from a distance. Have you found you putting this out there has helped you have conversations with people that are gone through similar things?

James Graham 12:05

Uh yeah, I hadn't really spoken like Andy's probably the only person that we'd kind of spoke about, obviously, whilst we were making it, but we didn't even really go that deep about it. We did as friends, not talking about like music and stuff, but uh so yeah, I I before doing interviews for this record, uh yeah, I hadn't spoke to a lot of people about about it. And I really still was trying to process the album myself, you know, because when I was writing it, I was very much in it and very much going through it, and I would send Andy stuff, and then I suppose I would kind of not not forget the feeling, but forgetting what I'd sent him and stuff like that, and then I'd get the demos back and I'd be like, Oh god, like I yeah, okay. Um but like yeah, through conversations I'm really finding out that I'm not alone in it, and I knew I wasn't alone, but just how much this affects so many people. Like I don't haven't met somebody that hasn't dealt had somebody that's unfortunately d had the disease, you know, so it's yeah, I I'm blown away by the fact of how much people want to share with me, you know. It's and I I'm still learning what this is, this album, and I I'm I'm genuinely, genuinely like humbled by the reception of it, but also just the way that people they get it, you know, they just get it. And I I think it's an album that I hope not just for the band's sake, but for just people in that position that it continues to find the right people that might need it at that point in their life.

David Freer 13:40

Yeah. Well, it's great. It's something else that really kind of did move me. I I read a lot about it. Sally Magdison, Magnus Magdussen from Glasgow.

Speaker 4 13:47

Somebody read that book. She uh the last gig I did before I got quite ill was uh uh for a charity called Playlist for Life, which yeah, yeah, yeah. And she was in the crowd front row, and I think she said that we were really good, but yeah, I need to cheer up a bit. She's pretty true. That's pretty true. But yeah, like that was uh uh yeah, it's funny that that's that's kind of linked up there that you know, yeah.

David Freer 14:12

She um one of the things that she touched, and we certainly noticed with my mother-in-law, is that somebody going through Alzheimer's, they're losing so much of their life and who they are, and they lose their speech and processes, but music, interestingly, not for everybody, is something and and your your mother, if I'm right, was a musician, is that right?

Speaker 4 14:29

No, she she wasn't, she just was in a batch. She used to like like to out of all the people in my family, apparently, she was in a band when she was at school. So she was the one that had that. She loved music, like she loved she was she was the one that really liked like she loved Elton John. So I'd go and see Elton John with her quite a lot. Oh yeah, yeah, he's old, he's like Yellow Brick Road's a cracking record, you know? The beast the beastie boys, you know. Yeah, you're right. You're right. But it was just, I don't know, and then when the band came around, she like she they were at every gig. Like my mum did the merch for the band, so it's like was like when like sending it out to people around the world, and I only found out like when she couldn't do it that she was sending wee personal notes saying thank you and stuff for that as well. So it's like yeah, but that playlist for life, if anybody like goes to their website, there's a video on that of a woman that is struggling to go and see her husband anymore because he's getting she's just getting nothing back and it's painful for her. Uh so they they take uh they say, Write a make write a playlist of the songs that you love together, and they go to see him, they put the earphones at a low level in his his ears, and then she he uh puts the songs on and she j he turns to her and says, Oh, do you remember that? Do you remember we did this? And it was just like she was blown away, and she like just she meant she can go and see him and speak about stuff instead and remember things just from that unlocking of those memories through music. I've watched that video so many times. So if anybody's going through something like that and just can see a wee would need a wee glimmer of hope, maybe go and give it a wee watch.

David Freer 16:05

It's there, absolutely. It's the power of music, right? Yeah, yeah, totally. I think we found with my mother-in-law she'd forgotten people's names, you know, her family. But you you put a song that she liked on, she could sing every word. It's quite something. What what's happening there in your brain that's doing that?

Speaker 4 16:17

Was it the Glenn Campbell documentary as well? Is it Glenn Campbell? Yeah, yeah. He was really far gone with the disease, but was still going on tours and remembering a lot of the songs on stage. Yeah, he would maybe they would maybe have to stop one day and then, but he would be more lucid and compass menace than he was just without music, you know. So it the proof is there.

David Freer 16:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It works. And that's why you communicate in such a serious subject in this manner is uh is touching people and affecting people like that.

Speaker 4 16:47

Yeah, it's just you start starting in a purely selfish way for doing it for myself with Andy and try to find something to a positive and all the negative, you know. Um but as it goes on, uh yeah, I'm really beginning to see that me doing that has opened a door for other people to talk about it at least. Like because we have all these devices that we are meant to help us communicate more, but I think it's pushing us further apart. And what all it needs is for people is just actually sit down and get around a table or just put that shit away and actually speak to each other. And I think that's yeah, it's become more apparent as time goes on.

Keith Jopling 17:29

The art of longevity is powered by Bang' Olifson, the luxury audio brand founded in 1925. For 100 years, Bang' Olofsen has been pushing the boundaries of audio technology and acoustic innovation. Bang and Olofson's products combine beautiful sound, timeless design, and unrivaled craftsmanship.

David Freer 17:53

You're like therapists, I think. But I often think so, so if you were a therapist, if you worked for the Samaritans or, you know, any of these people, you know, that they look after you and they make sure you you take a break and you know you get counseling yourself. Do you think in the music industry, and I know this has changed over the years, but you guys are putting your hearts out there for everybody. You're really exposing a vulnerability through your music. Is this support and help there for you?

Speaker 4 18:22

No, no, uh from I would say people like Mogwai have and Robert and things like that. But as far as the industry goes, nah. It's far, way, way behind. Way behind. You're still turning up to venues and there's full uh fridges of beer and all that at 12 o'clock in the afternoon. And yeah, sorry to diminish the rock and roll uh dream, but that is not healthy. That's not healthy. And the the str nobody no, the sport's not there.

David Freer 18:50

It's not helping.

Speaker 4 18:51

I don't I don't think it's there. I've done it, and it's it's it's a lot of a lot of there's a lot of talk. Yeah. Well a lot of no action. Yeah, a lot of buzzwords.

Andy MacFarlane 19:00

Just like fo it's just really folk wanting to make money. They're just trying to find if they are talking about the health aspect, that it does seem to be focused about taking money from folks, do you know?

Speaker 4 19:10

It's like it's sad it goes, oh that's a shame. But you know, but over here you've got to do this, and I'm sorry that I I've no, I've just listened to all that stuff, but yeah, it doesn't matter. Uh yeah, it's honestly it's I I if it wasn't for people like rock action, Mogwai, and Robert and like family, and for me, Andy, obviously. Um I don't know if I'd be sitting here talking to you about this because I don't know if I would put myself through it again.

David Freer 19:37

Well that's testament to you, Andy, and testament to people around. That's great, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm gonna get a bit cheerier in this podcast, but before we before we do, you know, and I think it's a good chance to talk about this, you know. Um we lost another amazing person a number of years ago in Scott Hutchison. I know his family and friends have set up a charity to try and address a lot of these problems, tiny changes. Um I know you guys support them quite a lot. It might be interesting just to kind of talk a little bit about what they do and the work they're doing because they are trying to make a difference, aren't they?

Speaker 4 20:04

Well, just anything, any anything in mental health for for young people is again, at least it's a start, you know. Like um I I haven't like because I've been going through my own stuff and dealing this record, I've kind of lost contact with a lot of the like what people are doing, if I'm because I was so focused about trying to get back on the the horse, as somebody said to me last night last night. But yeah, I mean anything that can affect change in this this industry and just for young people in general, to be honest, to just try and understand our emotions is vital. Um but it just needs people that are gonna listen and not talk at people, you know. There's a lot of people that talk at people without listening, and I really yeah. I don't know, yeah. I'm just kind of dipping my toe back into all this kind of stuff as well.

David Freer 20:55

So it's like it's kinda it's yeah, these things don't change overnight, do they? And and you hope that at least with people talking about it a bit more than they did maybe ten years ago, that you know things are going in the right direction, if maybe just not fast enough, right?

Speaker 4 21:07

Yeah, I just I think the mu well going back into the music industry in general, like it's just so messed up now. It's like there's not a lot of help for young bands in general, they can't go out and play shows because it's too expensive. Um we were just in Europe and there were so many opportunities for young people in for jobs within the industry within the venues that we're working at. They kind of start them there and then work them up to the bigger venues and all that, and it's an actual industry to help young people and show that there is a career in this, and it's just not here. There's it's actually embarrassing. Okay. To be honest. Somebody's listening to this. It's it is embarrassing. Uh honestly, we had a young band out with us there called uh For Marcy, and they couldn't believe we we weren't playing arenas, we were playing like some venues that were quite small, yet you were treated like you were, like you were they were happy for you to be here. Whereas some places you turn up and you're like it's like you're a you're a you're a bad smell. Or a hindrance to them that day, you know? Like it's not good to hear.

Andy MacFarlane 22:03

UK is just completely different. They've just they're not focused on the arts at all, do you know what I mean? In comparison to Europe, do you know?

Speaker 4 22:10

The g the government, you know, the government, even like in France, like if you've got what have you found out if you'd have approved 600 hours of work within the arts community, like an actress, an actor, or musician, you get like two grand a month.

David Freer 22:24

Wow.

Speaker 4 22:24

Can you imagine that here? That would help, wouldn't it? Yeah, can you can you imagine that like the amount of people that are trying that can just that means they can focus on the work and do that instead of clambering around to try and make ends meet so you can go and play a gig. It's a battle. Yeah, it's a battle. It makes sense.

David Freer 22:47

It makes sense, doesn't it? And Scotland, we've got a rich musical heritage, and the global impact artists from Scotland have is unbelievable. Especially Glasgow. And it and it mystifies me sometimes. I think people think Scottish, especially Glasgow artists get more support than other places.

Speaker 4 23:01

I will say though, I'm I'm being a bit being a harsh the Scottish Arts Council did help with the album and making the album. So again, there is a bit more support in the world. I'm thinking more in the live kind of aspect and getting stuff. The Arts Council have helped us over the years quite a lot with like stuff. Um but I'm just thinking across the board. I'm not just talking about like it they need more investment. Yeah. Like the arts council needs more investment. It just keeps getting cut every year, do you know? So the people are there that want to do it, but they're playing with two hands tied behind their back, you know?

David Freer 23:30

That's why that changes as well, right? It's not good to hear. The world's really great right now. Well, let's not get to that. So so before I move off the sad one, well, moving on from a little bit, when things get really dark and and things are kind of bad, I and I and you know, I sometimes find myself smiling. I don't know whether that's a thing. Sometimes humor's found in the hardest, toughest situations because you're like, this is ridiculous. And I guess that's where a lot of humor comes from. And and and I really hope you don't mind me saying this. For there's one of the songs in your album, the latest one, which I love and really do connect with me. Dead Flowers is a great song. I know it's gonna say but the line, um, yeah, Water Off a Duck's back giving my fucks back makes me smile. Yeah, is that bad?

Speaker 4 24:14

No, because uh do you know I got a text from Aidan Moffitt, my pal. Without who, without I wouldn't be writing music. Uh yeah. And he was like, Oh fuck, James, I forgot to say I've I've really enjoyed the the record, it's amazing. And uh when I heard Water Off a Duck's back give a fuck, I thought I was like, Oh, James is gonna be really happy with that one, isn't he? I was like, I was specifically after I'd read it going, Oh, I wonder what Aiden's gonna think of that.

David Freer 24:40

Is that right? It's great, it's brilliant, but you're you're taken in this really emotional dark place, and then you see a little glimmer. Yeah, and I think that's people many people have said this about your music. So that the lyrics and the subject matter is really dark, but the music, and this maybe a lot of this is down to you, Andy. The music and there's a there's a positivity and uh and up something uplifting about it as well. And that's the magic, I think, off the music you guys write, right? Is that you're dealing with really heavy subject matter, but there's a bit of hope there. Right. There's got to be.

Andy MacFarlane 25:08

Yeah, I mean, yeah, that was that was the thing, like you know it's gonna be a heavy lesson. So it's like to have that contrast of the music and the artwork as well to be quite like yeah, hopeful looking, or hopefully sounding, or just yeah, I don't know, it just does give that kind of is it compliments as well as being a contrast, you know. You need that in life, don't you? Both sides of it, yeah.

Speaker 4 25:30

It sparks that in me. Like I think it the glimmers of hope that are in the lyrics are there because of the music that uh it's helped helping me pull me through whatever's going on and it's what what he's sent me, you know. It's weird, but like I'm not musical at all, I don't play anything, I can't do anything. Like I um I write my mu I write my words and my melodies, and Andy does absolutely everything, you know. Like, and I think because I don't think about chord changes or what's gonna sound good after that, I go on complete feeling and nothing else. That's Andy all says though, that's why it's working, you know, like that's why it is a bit different because you're not going, oh, should I go after an E-meen? Should I do anything? Like, you know, like I don't know, I even know, you know, so it's just on pure story. Oh sorry, like real life and emotion and how I his music makes me feel. Miserable.

David Freer 26:26

I've I've heard you say that before on other podcasts to talk about that, but you know, I think I think the vocal melodies is underrated as an instrument, you know. The melodies you say aren't musical are, and I think you know, people that can write. I mean, I don't know how you guys write that. Do you is it just the lyrics or do you write the melodies too?

Speaker 4 26:44

Like he'll send me he'll send me the music and then I'll just everything that you hear, I'll fling it at a wall basically and go deal with that, mate.

Andy MacFarlane 26:52

So I'll write some music and just have it on a loop pretty much, so like maybe ten minutes long, so he can just sing, yeah. Like a canvas. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I just like chuck loads and loads at it, and then just start chopping it up and just piecing it together into our songs, you know. So you're both musical in different ways there, you know.

Speaker 4 27:11

Work on our own too. We don't go right, who's got the acoustic guitar in handy and what's gonna jam, you know? That would be hell for both of us. Um we give we we give her both the time and the space to go and go away and do her own thing and then come back together, which for me allows me to make mistakes, and half of the time mistakes can turn out to be the best thing that you've got. Yeah, and it just you're not you're not think just you're not thinking about somebody standing standing beside, even though Andy's my my best mate, and like we can like I I'm not embarrassed to do anything for him. I still don't want to be a squeo-I'm sure he'd forgive you. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like it gives the just the opportunity to to to do that, and like I say, mistakes can end up being really great things.

David Freer 27:56

The thing that makes it, yeah, makes it work. Yeah, so water off a duck's back, give me my fuck's back might have just been a placeholder, but eventually.

Speaker 4 28:02

I was walking, I was walking past a pond or something. Yeah, I'd I I can't even remember writing that to be honest. I just remember going, that makes sense. It's brilliant, it's been playing in the loop in my head for the last week. It's brilliant. I love it. There's just so many times in life where pressure is on you from other people and you're just like, no. Like I've cared, like I I've been walked over too many times. See you later. I don't I don't need to deal with this anymore.

David Freer 28:31

You know, that's right. It ties back a little bit to like your priorities, right? This is why you're enjoying playing your shows because you realise that's the important thing here. Well, nothing else really.

Speaker 4 28:39

Yeah, there's so many trappings in this, or like you you can get ideas above your station and think you're bigger than you are, and all that. And I I want I don't enjoy any of that. I would want to be the antithesis of that. I'm just a guy that writes a music with his friend and goes and plays some gigs, and I want to simplify it to that point. I'm nothing more than that, and I'm nothing less than that inside this band. I don't want to be the golden god saviour of rock and roll that so many people look like they want to be these days. I'm just like, I find that extremely boring. I'm like, just be honest and be real with folk, and hopefully that's enough to get to you where you were you need to be.

David Freer 29:16

So in my other life, I ran a design studio and I'm a bit of a student of album cover design. And I think your ones are are amazing. It's um Dave Thomas, is that right? Who you work with?

Andy MacFarlane 29:27

Yeah, from the start. Yeah, he's just been brilliant. Like I can just go him basically, I'll do all the research, you know, of like what direction to take it in. And then similarly with James's lyrics, I just throw it all at Dave and say, right, let's do something, you know. And he has to kind of sift through it all and as you know, so it's and yeah, we just got on really well.

Speaker 4 29:50

We know how to work together and stuff like that, and it's just yeah, it's always I always send him the full the lyrics as well, just a full like because and especially on this record, he's can he's connected so much to he's had his own experiences uh and like it just it felt like a lot of people within making this record had their own life experiences that made sense within the record and that just that he was just so connected to it. He's been so connected to everything, but yeah, this one was even more so.

David Freer 30:20

I think you're happy with the result of it. Oh yeah.

Speaker 4 30:23

I think And Andy always said to me, because I I'm I'm not again I don't I don't have any background in design or art or anything, I can just go Oh that looks good. Uh you know what I mean? But like I can see a through line in all those artworks, like the music, there's a through line, and also Andy always said we were talking about like when we're in a record shop, you you wanted it to stand out and like especially on this one because it's such a dark lyrical album anyway. We didn't you didn't want it to be like a dark looking you wanted it to be bright and colorful and stand out to people, you know.

Andy MacFarlane 30:56

Yeah, so when you walk in a shop and it's just like to oh you see it, it'll just catch your eye anyway, do you know? But I kind of got the idea so the new album that yeah, um it's kind of based on a Hungarian artist, um, but I don't want to try and pronounce his name. But so I'll give you I'll let you try and do it if you're oh thanks, Andy.

David Freer 31:19

I appreciate that. Yeah, right. Gorgi Kavanasny.

Andy MacFarlane 31:27

But he but he would make these kind of all the Hungarian ones of it as well. Yeah, but he would make these kind of so it would be like it was animations, but it was like still photos, but he would paint like the bright colours over the top of them, do you know, and then it would just create a big storyline analog thing to it, yeah. So it was just visually look so that's all like hand-painted and stuff as well. The the new one, do you know?

David Freer 31:49

For the benefit of people not seeing this uh audio recording. I've got a series of little thumbnails of the album covers my notes here, but it's amazing you look at it. I um and and it's bright, it's got red and yellow, it's got like a blue grid over it. Um I did a series of blogs recently where I was looking at colour psychology and album covers, a little bit niche, but you know, you're using red a lot, dark colours, and it feels quite positive. This one feels like the addition of yellow, yeah, which colour psychologists say is represents creativity. That's why post-it notes are yellow. All right.

Andy MacFarlane 32:21

Yeah, one is that yellow, and it's like kind of I don't know, yeah. See, we also we also recorded on the mixing disc that was used to record Nevermind the Bollocks by Sex Pistols. So it's also a kind of wee reference to that. Yellow and pink in there, yeah. It's a classic combo, yeah. Yeah, well, it just works, you know. It does work, doesn't it? Yeah. And like the, I mean, the first one, the first album as well, um that was similar in the way you could see that from the other side of the shop, look pretty catch your eye, you know. But that's all based on like 1950s and 60s, like first aid booklets, do you know? Like they made these look cool manuals that were like that were kind of like rectangle shaped, you know, and it's just like aye, that's where that came from. Oh, it's brilliant, it's lovely.

David Freer 33:06

Um, if if if anybody listening hasn't seen it, they should definitely have a look at some of the album covers there, their their the their works of art and themselves. You guys should do an exhibition or something.

Andy MacFarlane 33:13

Yeah, yeah, we're trying to get Dave to do that. There we go.

David Freer 33:15

That would be great, yeah.

Speaker 4 33:16

Dave did because Dave does stuff for like Mogwai and loads of other artists. He he should definitely have a in a gallery somewhere, you know.

David Freer 33:23

I've got a design studio in Glasgow and we do mini exhibitions, so let's talk about it. There we go.

Speaker 4 33:28

He would love to come in touch with me afterwards, yeah. I'd love to love to talk to him about it because he does such a good job. He's so Glasgow did work with Scott and Frying Rabbit stuff as well. So it's like he's so like he's he's connected to Glasgow as well, you know.

David Freer 33:40

So I don't know whether this was his idea, but another thing that that came out, and it ties in with your want to be seen from across the shop, but a different way. We often talk about this with brands, it's more than just the logo, it's all the other stuff. But I let my kids listen to this album last week. I was like, what do you think of this? And um what the first thing two of them said was No, it wasn't shite. It was um it was um not as much swearing because they might be listening to this podcast. No, don't worry, they've heard it all, they've heard it all. It's um it it was they're like, I love it. All the songs are in uppercase. So the Spotify, all the song names are written in uppercase type. I mean, was that that must have been a consciousness of it? Yeah, that was still a written bit of Robert Smith uppercase.

Andy MacFarlane 34:24

Is that what he does? Is that what whenever he texts, he emails, and everything's caps lock on, and it's like, do you know that's done at me? That is a brilliant story. I love it.

Speaker 4 34:34

Yeah, that's funny because he's so softly spoken usually. Uh but in emails it feels like he's shouting at you.

David Freer 34:40

It's it's funny. The story of his latest album, the cure's latest album, cover is amazing. We heard that, the sculpture. Yeah, he's got it in his house as well. He's actually got the actual sculpture. So he didn't know the idea, and he was thinking what to do, and he had this coffee table book he'd had for years, and he's flicking through it and he thought, that sculpture, I'd love that. And he looked up the artist, and the artist had died that day. Yeah, it's spooky, right? Hi, yeah, yeah.

Andy MacFarlane 35:01

Like stuff like that happens all the time. It's like the world is a mysterious place.

Speaker 4 35:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that story. There's there's a lot of things that since we've started this record, since my mum passed as well. Uh I don't know what I believe in, by the way. I'm not saying I'm not religious or anything like that, but there's been a a lot of me and Andy have been constantly going, Oh wow, that's a bit too coincidental. But uh I can't I'm not gonna put go into detail about that, but like it's happened uh far too many times now for it to be just like or coincidence or just me manifesting it, or you know, like it's like oh no. It's it's actually I'm finding it very comforting. Um in as uh in a weird way I like to look at it as like maybe my mum's communicating with me in some way. But again, I don't know what I believe in, but it's a nicer. It's a nicer way to look at it than thinking not I'd rather lean into that than not lean into it, you know.

David Freer 35:57

Yeah, I can see the comfort in that as well, yeah, for sure.

Keith Jopling 36:01

The art of longevity is brought to you with Bang and Olifson. Since 1925, Bang Oleson has created iconic audio and home entertainment products to the highest standards of sound, craft, and design. You can find more about the partnership on our web pages and by signing up to the mailing list, where you can then get episodes first, plus invitations to events and offers. Finally, we want to get to 100 shows and beyond with the art of longevity. And the only way we can do that is with your help and advocacy. So please rate, review, and share the podcast wherever you can. Back to the conversation to wrap up this episode, and we'll be back with another great guest very soon.

David Freer 36:46

We've chatted about so much stuff. I had notes. I've jumped around. But what I should get back to a little bit is the subject of this podcast a little bit. So Keith's written a couple of great books on music industry and albums. And um, his book that's just about to come out is called uh Riding the Roller Coaster. And he talks about certain themes that have allowed bands, I guess, like yours, to remain relevant and successful over quite a long period of time. I mean, I don't want to highlight it, but you're in your third decade now, is that right? 20 years. Yeah, I'm making it sound longer. Yeah, it feels like that. No, 20 or 20 years. Uh the first album's 20 next year. That's amazing. And I I guess in in his books, he's trying to work out what is it that helps that happen. And I guess his guidance for other bands or people in the music industry. And he's got a number of themes, and he picked out three that he thought might be relevant, you guys. So I might test you out, see if you think it. Um and he's learnt this through all the bands he's spoken to through all the series of these podcasts. The first one is work to an internal code packed with yourself. So I guess that's have you got did you guys set out with principles when you first started the band and have you stuck to them? Yeah, lots. Wow.

Andy MacFarlane 37:54

So many rules. Oh yeah, what are the rules? Well, it was, I mean, they do change, but it's like I I now don't really know them as much because of like it's just uh but it there was always like definitely when we're starting, it's like, right, would you play this song when you were old? Would this be embarrassing to play when you're an old guy, kind of thing? So you had that in your head. It's like, right, you need to be writing something that's kind of quite, I don't know, something that's pretty meaningful instead of throwaway stuff, do you know? And then for I don't know. No encores. No encore.

Speaker 4 38:26

We played for for an hour and a half, and that's how much we're allocated for these these these venues. We could go off and come back on and play two less songs, uh, but we play extra songs instead of pretending that it's a bit of a it's a bit of a puff sometimes. Wanky as fuck, man. Unless you need a P. Long guitar solo. But like yeah, there's that there there was definitely principles we had, like No, so that's that that ties in, yeah.

Andy MacFarlane 38:59

We we definitely knew who we didn't want to be. That was more of it. Like when we were starting, it was like we would go and watch so many gigs, but it was to try and learn what not to do rather than to steal ideas, you know, just to kind of so we would always be doing our own thing. It's like, right, but just don't do that, that, or that, or whatever they're doing there, do you know? And we were influenced by the bands we loved.

Speaker 4 39:20

We would obviously hold Mogwai up to the highest regards and standards because we're just like they were that looking at the path that they were on and just loving the music that they made. It was like, yeah, I want to do it similar to how they were doing it, and then Robert now as well, looking at the way that he does it and the way that it's like yeah, it's learning from your your your people that you love, and uh and let learning what not to do from so-called peers.

David Freer 39:50

That's amazing, that's amazing. So that one definitely checks out. The next one here is make music that's useful. Now, I think we've potentially already covered this one, so it's you're you're writing music that's actually maybe helping people, and certainly this last album, you know, we've talked about that. But is that something you were conscious of with your other albums, do you think, as well? I hadn't written a song until I was 21.

Speaker 4 40:11

I don't think and Andy had always been like, right, you were gonna do this when you start writing songs. When you start writing songs, I had nothing, I didn't know what I had to write about, and then things in my life happened that made sense to write about. So it was never we never write a go just oh let's write a tune. It's like, no, uh we have I've got stuff to write about, uh, and uh it's never just about writing a catchy song or anything. For me anyway, like it has to be if it yeah, it has to be about something that's affected me, um, or just documenting my life at that point. It was funny, I was I don't know if this goes off tangent a little bit, but Andy and I were talking about maybe working on something that we were given parameters would be quite like uh interesting going right, this is what we need, this is what the say a film, the song in the film, this is what this scene's about, and can you write that? And I I'm interested to do some of that with them, whereas where we're we're given kind of like saying this is what you need to do, this uh the freedom of a type brief. Whereas when I'm writing it's like it's it's about personal like things and got to kind of go deep into it, and it'd be nice to exercise um different types of muscles out with this as well. I hope that makes sense.

David Freer 41:25

You got you uh you know, I've um I'm I'm familiar with some of the spin-off projects you guys have done as well, and um you must get a bit of that. I know the what the one I really like is Outlines, I think you did, which is a great album if if people have to do that. I was given the parameters with that.

Speaker 4 41:38

When I interviewed uh local people in Easter House that had been struggling um from different walks of life, um that used that centre platform and Easter House was a like a learning and art centre, um and people from like yeah, like people that wouldn't have had had access to these kind of things um or help or anything. And I went and spoke to lots of people different ages and yeah, it was really eye-opening. They were really humbling again to hear the stories that they were happy they were sharing with us. So it was there was parameters in that, yeah, which was I found really uh interesting. I was writing about other people, but then in the same time that how they were making me feel too, you know. So that and then yeah, that was going through a James filter. Yeah, uh yeah, pretty much it was Catherine Joseph filter, her voice is beautiful as well, isn't it? Yeah, it was like it was just a great way to learn another side of writing, you know, like but uh I definitely learned lessons from it. I've learned lessons from everything I've done to take back to work with Andy, you know.

David Freer 42:40

I mean that's an example of the arts community doing something really positive there, isn't it?

Speaker 4 42:44

So I know I know I know there's a lot of stuff wrong, but you know, it's great when people have one from Chemical Underground that was in the Delgados that he was the driving force behind that project. So I'm really grateful for him to ask me to to be involved in it.

David Freer 42:56

He's done some great stuff. Yeah. The last of the three I'm gonna go for here is um, and I love this one, is um make your songs a bit weird. And and this comes from I think this is an amazing story, but Keith picked this up when he one of one of the earlier episodes was this was with Niall Rogers, and he talks about working on and this sounds very name-droppy, but he was working with uh David Bowie on Let's Dance. And that was obviously such a successful cherished song with so many people. But Niall Rogers said one of the thin reasons he thinks it's successful is songs weren't sounding like that at that time, and this if you listen to it against the backdrop of that period, sounded a bit weird. And in a way, by not following the formula and being a bit weird, that made that song really stand out for a lot of people and stand the test of time. Would you think that's is that someone you recognize in your own?

Andy MacFarlane 43:45

I was going to bring up, Baby, when you said that question as well, because he always had that thing of so let's dance. The second you hear that, it's got that introduction, there's something familiar, you know where it's going, and then it just goes, oh, goes the other way, do you know? Same with yeah that that's that's how he wrote songs. It was like try and get some like kind of steal an idea, something that sounds familiar to folk, and then when they're about to guess what happens, just go somewhere else, you know. Don't give it to them, yeah. I I don't, and just and it just makes something completely new. So I know we do make our I mean it's not deliberately to make our songs weird, but like I try and do the same kind of thing. I get something that sounds a wee bit familiar to people, but then just turn it into one of our stuff.

Speaker 4 44:29

Yeah, and our songs don't have normal song structures either. There's not like pure verse chorus, verse chorus, middle. It's like it's telling a story instead of uh yeah, a a structure to a normal pop song or a rock song, you know, which does make it a bit weird for anybody that has to learn the songs. They're like, what one's the chorus? What's the don't ask me either? No, you wrote it, did I?

Andy MacFarlane 44:55

It is strange because we I mean I can't read music or anything like that, so it's like it's all just by ear. So when you do get like musicians, session musicians and everyone coming in and they're all trained and they're writing it all out, they're just like, This is mania. What is going on with what you've read? I'm just like, I don't know, it just sounds like just do it differently.

David Freer 45:16

I mean, you mean you you you read about other musicians, and it does seem like I read uh one of those Brian Wilson biographies recently, and you know, the way he wrote and recorded those songs was just completely wacky, yeah.

Speaker 4 45:27

And just what the the the beauty that come out comes out of that is unbelievable. He's like that's weird. It's when we were writing a lot of the early stuff, I was listening to lots of Beach Boys stuff. Yeah, I loved I love the Beach Boys so much. As a singer, of course, it's like the harmonies, the melodies, the words as well, they're just beautiful love songs as well, you know. They really are, they really are, aren't they? Yeah, yeah, I I still still really uh you might not and people might not hear it, but I'm definitely thinking I'm pretty influenced by by that the Beach Boys. Yeah, like even like Fret the Friends 2020 kind of album where the kind of smaller songs as well, and they're really nice. We kind of it's almost like we demos. Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I really, really that that struck a chord with me. Of course, Pet Sounds struck a chord with me as well. It's ingenious. But that that that week I bought that rec uh is it a compilation?

Andy MacFarlane 46:20

Uh well it's two albums they they released them all. It was when Fop were doing their five pounds. On the five-pound wall in Fort Rod, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 46:30

They were putting Music Zone Trade Direct, I kinda like.

Andy MacFarlane 46:34

Both, bro. But they were like putting two Beach Boys albums into one. That was just and they were just selling them for some reason. I don't know.

Speaker 4 46:40

I got it for five quid, don't I? And that then it's ended up being something that yeah, I'm still talking about.

David Freer 46:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The other one that I love is that um the smile album that that was made and then they were released, right? And then they released a terrible version of it, and then when they put it together, it was just amazing. The sessions for that, it's like a box set or on Spotify, and it's quite a listen because you really get you hear the process that you put into writing some of those songs. Yeah, I remember when that came out, like the big chunky CD thing out of the box.

Speaker 4 47:07

I think I bought that one actually. Oh, nice. Before everybody got back into vinyl, we were all buying CDs. That's a good segue into the next bit, actually.

David Freer 47:15

The last thing here. I know, I know, we're like naturals at this, aren't we? You started, or certainly when I first discovered you, it was though that you know during the early 2000s, and that was a period when Spotify, iTunes, you know, Napster was really coming into force. And you just bought songs for 79 pence, you download what you want. That interestingly, the album was kind of on its last legs. Lots of people predicted, and Keith certainly written another book about this called The Body of Work, but that the album was dead. And that because you didn't need that construct of an LP anymore, or a CD, you just streamed what you wanted to, then the album would die out, but years later it's not, right? What what what's your feelings about that? Why is that?

Speaker 4 47:56

It's important to me for to listen to something like I love film and I see our records as each chapter or a scene in a film for the overall story. And I love records like that where I take get taken on a journey. Uh I don't want to just I there's a time and a place for playlist day and like single songs, but when for me it's about making full bodies of work and not just like here's a song, we'll put that out, here's a song, we'll put that out. It's got to be uh from a moment in time that that's a documentation.

Andy MacFarlane 48:26

Yeah, and that's what that's actually one of the constraints we put on ourselves as well, is like it must fit on a vinyl. Like it there's going to be two sides to this. So you think about it as two sides as well. Side A and side B. Yeah, when you're when you're sequencing it all and stuff like that. It's like, yeah. So what's side A and side B? Even though it's not I mean, I guess it is still relevant, but I that's just the way it's just it keeps you, I don't know, just keeps it, keeps you just without running. Because you could end up writing like 50 odd songs or something, do you know? Twilight said boxer, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 48:58

I I I really I I just I love the fact that we make records. It just like I've like when you've we've written like six songs and we're we always go, right, so what does it what does this record need? Like we don't go, oh well let's write another tune that's catchier to see put on it's like no, what does this record need? Like how do like we've got the ideas and like in my head and the pay like we we think about that.

David Freer 49:24

It's like a curated thing that needs the that's self-contained. Well, there's a song, chuck them together. So each song belongs on that album and wouldn't belong in another one. Yeah, yeah. It's a good way of thinking about it. There's um and that's obviously the Alpy. I was I was reading yesterday about the band television and their um Marky Moon, which is a cracking song. But when that was first released, I think it's 10 minutes long, I think. For the seven inch, you had to listen to half of it and then turn it over because the constraints of a seven inch didn't let you do that. So um d are you are you thinking about that when you write songs? What about the length you know we can't go over whatever 16 minutes like an afterthought? Oh, but we are to flip it.

Andy MacFarlane 50:04

But this time the album actually did run over slightly. You're I think you only get like 22 minutes on each side or something like that. But there's this process of mastering at half speed now, which means it's quite hard to explain, but you kind of so you're you slow the song down half speed, and then it lets so the high frequencies become the mid-frequencies, so it's easier to manipulate, then you speed it back up and it all fits on fine. Someone listening will understand the sound.

David Freer 50:40

But you can do it, so you were able to swing it basically. You were able to switch it. I love it, Andy. That's great. This is a nugget of information I don't know, but when Spotify first started playing albums, it was on auto shuffle. So you'd listen to it in a different sequence. Oh, really? One of the heroes of the album that um was Adele, believe it or not, who said, I've put a lot of time and effort into recording those songs in that order. So if you don't play, take auto shuffle off. I'm not I'm gonna take my music off. And Spotify blacked down. So we've got a lot to thank Adele. Choose Adele. Yeah, yeah. I think we've had a good chat here, guys. You need to get back. You've got an earlier sound checker, I think. But um, I think a nice place to end would just to talk about what's next for you. What what's next for the Twilight Sad? My bed.

Speaker 4 51:23

A bit of a break. Um, no, we're pretty like we've got so the rest of the tour, tour finishes in Ireland. Uh we've got about another week of on the UK tour, and then we start hitting festivals, we've got a lot of dates with the cure in the summer, which is amazing, and real honour and privilege again to be she on the stage, told to be on the stage with them. And then we've got some gigs in the later half of the year. We have a bunch of songs left over, not even left over, I wouldn't say.

Andy MacFarlane 51:52

We've just we'd like you to let you know. Well, yeah, I mean, we've pretty much got enough for another album, so we're just gonna try and get back to writing as soon as we can, really, after all the this cure stuff again.

Speaker 4 52:03

It'll be a record that's definitely connected to this record though, because it's like all written around the same time. I think a sister album. That's exactly how I've been saying it. I like um um how long it'll take it, we we don't know, but we've we we're we're motivated to well, I'm feeling a lot more healthier now and well enough and more settled into who I am and what I'm doing. Um so I I feel like I'm ready to to do it again with Andy whenever when he when he wants, you know. So it's like the we want to do it. And next year's 20 we're 20, so we're gonna celebrate that and and uh gig forms. We look good for 20, um but it's like it's gonna be uh busy, and I think there's yeah, we're hoping more things come in and we're just kind of getting back into the swing of things, the train's starting to move again, so and it does feel like things are moving in a positive direction, but it's really we'll do everything we can, but it's up to the universe whether they want us to keep going.

David Freer 53:02

Sometimes you make your own luck with these things, and I know it's not about manifesting, but you know, if you go into things with those positive attitudes, it's great to hear, it's great news for any Twilight Sad uh fans out there. Um, and um I'm certainly looking forward to seeing you tonight, Camden. And then um I'm I've got a ticket for the Edinburgh Cure show as well. So great to see.

Speaker 4 53:20

You're not playing that one, but I'll be there. I will be there. I'm quite happy not a slow dive that are playing, so I'm quite happy that's we're we're talking about doing it, and I think Robert you just said no, you'd we'll do you do the Ireland ones. Oh, nice. Because I suppose Scotland we that's a we've done a lot of things in Scotland. So I think he made yeah, once again he obviously makes the right decision. Maybe see you in the audience then. Yeah, yeah, why? Yeah, I'll be I'm a night off. I'll be crowd surfing and ever. Um, but yeah, we've uh we've I've got like so many other gigs with them that we're so grateful to be able to do. But yeah, I'm I'm yeah, I'm going I'm going to do that for fun. I'm not working.

David Freer 53:56

Right. Well, once again, the Twilight Sad, thank you for joining us for the Art of Longevity. It's been really interesting talking to you both, James and Andy. Um and uh yeah, thank you very much. Well, thanks. We've really enjoyed the conversation. Cheers, man. Nice one. Cheers. Cheers.