The Art of Longevity Season 13, Episode 5: Broken Social Scene

There’s a point in every long music career where survival becomes more interesting than success. Not survival in the purely commercial sense. Not chart positions, algorithmic reach or streaming milestones. But survival of identity. Survival of friendship. Survival of purpose. The good stuff that can easily get buried away in the cut & thrust of a fickle business like music. 

That’s where Kevin Drew of Broken Social Scene finds himself now, nearly 25 years after the collective first emerged from Toronto’s indie underground and quietly became one of the defining musical communities of the 2000s.

Drew is thoughtful, funny, open & revealing; and utterly uninterested in rock mythology. There are no grand narratives about being an artist in the world of “rock & roll”. In fact, he actively rejects them.

“I can’t handle any more Daisy Jones & The Six bullshit. It’s all drugs, drugs, drugs. The road’s about constipation, man. It’s not about partying. It’s about how my metabolism works on the road but nobody wants to make that movie.”

The refusal to romanticise the cliché is central to Broken Social Scene’s longevity. And that’s just what we love about The Art of Longevity. In fact I’m going to call it “getting beyond the cliches of being an artist in the modern music business”. 

While many bands implode under the pressure of ego, success or repetition, Drew talks about music instead as community: messy, imperfect, emotional community.

“Our success is not of an individual. It's a group of people. We’re in this together. We’re still going. Some of us have more success than others. Some people have swimming pools, some of us are renting. We have great lives, we have great kids, we have success, because success is honesty”. 

That philosophy runs through Remember the Humans, the band’s first album in nine years. It’s a record shaped not by urgency or any loud “comeback” ambition, but by reflection. The album opens with a trio of mid-tempo songs, thereby breaking every rule there is in the modern biz. Except the three songs are just great, and set the listener up for a journey that ebbs & flows like all good albums do. 

A collective is a very different beast from a band. For the various rotating members of Broken Social Scene (some 20 I could count), life and careers intersect in a spaghetti junction of a band dynamic. Parents have died. Relationships have changed. Careers have diverged. Some members of the collective found “mainstream” success through projects like Feist, Metric and Stars. Others remained closer to the margins. 

“We’re not owed anything,” Drew says. “We already did the best we could. Our career peaked. We never made it into the mainstream. We never sold our catalog. We never signed the “big deal”. We never took the money, man. We stayed with the people.”

As social scene indeed, and one very much not literally broken, but working just as it should. 

The Art of Longevity Season 13 is powered by Bang & Olufsen. 

The book of the podcast, Riding the Rollercoaster, is now available. 

Transcript

Keith Jopling 0:00

Hello and welcome back to The Art of Longevity, season 13! Some amazing guests. We have Oliver Arnold, Lady Tron Midge, or some others lining up that I am very excited about. Amazing artists with fascinating careers. In the conversations this season, we'll be testing out some of the themes of longevity in music as written in the book. Riding the Roller Coaster. May the 12th, 2026, you can pre-order it now from all online bookshops, and you can buy it in the shops from May 12th. This season leads up to the book's release, so look out for more news on that and your invitation to the launch party. We'll also be doing another Art of Longevity live with Bang Olifson, so look out for that. Okay, let's get going. Season 13 of the Art of Longevity. Thank you for having us. Thanks for coming in and doing this, and especially, you know, welcome to the fine English early summer.

Kevin Drew 1:23

This is no different than Toronto. It's chilly and it's May. But once the shorts come on, no one takes them off. I notice no one's wearing shorts here.

Keith Jopling 1:31

Yeah, once the shorts go on, they don't come off.

Kevin Drew 1:34

It's true. That species exists over in our country as well.

Keith Jopling 1:40

All right. So you are over here. You're doing a show later. You're doing an in-store. Yeah. Okay. Tell us about how the in-stores work because everyone's doing in-stores now instead of touring, or as an alternative to touring to some extent.

Kevin Drew 1:54

Keith, I have not done anything like this in nine years. I haven't put a record out like this. This is my 89th interview. So I am, I feel as if there's a virgin aspect to me coming back and doing this again. Um, you heard me just say thanks for having us, because I represent the band and I'm doing a lot of interviews for the band. I talk about a lot of people. Yeah, this was an interesting one, especially from an uh an indie point of view with our labels and the band itself, because we're bringing four people over to go on a little in-store tour. We started in Philly, New York, London, Berlin. So when we came up, we used to do a lot of press tours. And then, of course, through communication and just the idea that you didn't actually need to be there in the room anymore, those slowed down. So being out here and playing in stores, the last time I think we truly did it was 2010 when we put out a record called Forgiveness Rock Record. Uh and we had done some record in-stores. But it's a place to say, hey, the record's out, the record's for sale. Here's some songs, intermittent and interactive. Intimate, excuse me, and interactive, and uh all signs are pointed towards this is what you're supposed to do. And who's come over with you for this? Uh Charles Spearin, who I've been making records with since I was uh 20 years old, so 30 years. Evan Cranley, who I've been making records with since I was 22 years old, so 28 years. And Hannah Georges, and this is our first record with Hannah, and she's just an exceptional artist in her own right, has her own catalog, been a fan of hers for so long, and we were able to get her on the album. And then she recently got married, and I think this there was a honeymoon that was going to be, and we just sort of said, Hey, will you come and do this little press tour with us and sing some songs? So her hubby arrived today, and we're gonna do this, and then off she goes on a honeymoon.

Keith Jopling 4:00

Nice because she co-wrote one of the songs on the album as well, didn't she? So how did you guys mean have you brought her into the fold? I guess you have.

Kevin Drew 4:07

I have. Once you sing with Hannah, which I've realized now, it's hard to not want to do that again and again. I have a song called Lover Spit that when my mother died, it's very hard for me to sing. It was her favorite song. And I would get Hannah to do it when we were on tour together. She was opening for our 20th anniversary tour of a record called You Forgotten People. And her cadence, her throat, her voice, her warmth matched that song. And we actually in 2003 came here and it wasn't Abbey Road studio, but it was a really well-known studio. And we recorded Loverspit with Leslie Feist. Her record wasn't out yet. She was on tour with us, and I knew in that male way of she was such a tour de force. She got us, helped us get signed, helped us get agent. Any anybody who saw her when we played with Leslie, saw our band, was mesmerized. You know, we were good, but we weren't her. And I remember being in that studio thinking, okay, we're recording a couple of covers or uh uh we're re-recording some of our songs in an intimate environment. And I looked at her and said, Would you just sing Loverspit? Just you on your own? And she said, I'd love to. So that became very much her song as well, because we put it out on a B-side record, beehive. So the female voice singing that is very powerful. And Hannah sort of takes that uh that position now when we play that song, and it's an honor to have her do it. And uh yeah, we tagged her when we were working on this, I think in 2023, 24. And she came into the studio, listened to a bunch of things, and then we had some, you know, those spirit purposes jams that are just, oh, it's a piano and a drum, or this. And our producer, David Neufeld, was playing her anything, he didn't have any rules to anything. And she really said, Oh, I like this, this, this. Can I take this home and maybe work on this? And uh, we sent her home with the rough recording with just piano and drums. And we never heard from her. And while putting this record, you want to have the key to broken social scene is the vending machine of all different things. So it represents a mixtape of who we are as individuals and how we listen and how we feel and how we process. And that vibe that I had sort of written on piano and drums was missing in what we were gathering. So I found myself in my house and I put that on again. And I was going through everyone's stuff, like 26, 28, 29, 34. I was going through it all and went, I'm still like that. Oh, yeah. Never heard from Hannah. And I suddenly found myself singing. And I wrote a top line and I loved it. And I called Dave the next morning and I said, Dave, I found a vocal for remember that song, the dead, we called it Ringo Star. I said, Remember the Ringo Star song? And he went, Did you check your email? Because Hannah just sent something in. And I thought, Are you fucking kidding me?

Keith Jopling 7:15

Which trying to do it.

Kevin Drew 7:15

As long as it's good, I keep. Okay. So I listened to it and I thought, okay. And I called Dave back and went, All right. He said, I really like it. I said, it's good, but I got something, it's amazing. I said, it's just so good. You're gonna love it. And two days later, I couldn't remember what I did at all. All I could hear was Hannah and her song. And I knew, oh my God, this is Hannah's song. I it's just one of those things. It's when it's undeniable, it's un when it takes over your brain, you know, and you start singing it, you start humming it, you're that's it.

Keith Jopling 7:47

I love that. I mean, when a s there's nothing better than a kind of when a song becomes a kind of earworm, it gets inside your head. So Remember the Humans. We're gonna talk about this album for a bit. The great thing about doing this podcast sometimes is I can become a fan of a band that I I wasn't a fan of, but I knew. I've listened to Remember the Humans uh several times over, so three or four times. And it does what I like albums to do. It kind of passes through several phases. So I I love this record because I love the scheduling. I mean, I love the songs, but I love the scheduling. Just tell me how much that was a conscious thing with this album, then we can talk our way through, you know, the kind of ebbs and flows.

Kevin Drew 8:30

Yeah. Uh it was very conscious. The sequencing has always been such a huge thing for all of us, and everyone was involved. I think the process with the mixing and the mastering also led us to the path of how we wanted to find ourselves listening to this album. Charles Spearn, myself, and and David Newfeld, especially were this triangle where we were working so hard to get this thing finished. The other, you know, Andrew and Justin and Brendan and Sammy, they were very sweet about allowing us space, but also everyone has opinions. But they also they they knew where we were at at this point in our lives, in the aspect of just trying to let it happen. But you want to, for lack of a better terminology, tell an emotional story with melody. Not so much lyrics for me, but just and and it was interesting to put this together to open and to you normally try to not open mid-tempo. It's sort of against the rules of albums, but we doubled down and we did two in a row where we wanted to stay. Well, three in a row, really. Yes. I would say so too. Yeah. Someone said to me, where's the big climaxes in the hit you over the head social scene? I said, Well, you've got the catalog. Go listen to that. That's there. But this right now, this is our reaction to denial. It's our reaction to what's going on. I'm not going to sing footloose. It's not going to happen. And I always say to people, you gotta dance, but be careful what you dance to because people are hurting. They are suffering right next to us. And I love joy. I'm addicted to it. I've fallen down the stairs by that word. I felt we had a responsibility to the aspects of the times of now, and not to come out swinging and chasing and wanting to be just to be like, here's where we're at. This group of people. Here's where we're at. Parents are dead, friends are dead, we're still going, we're still trying. Some people have way more success than others. Some people have swimming pools, some people are renting, you know? And the aspect to it is we're in this together. And nine years later, we happen to make another record where it's us deciding to continue. We're not owed anything. We've already did the best we could. Our career peaked. We never made it into the mainstream. We never had the money to make it into the mainstream. We never sold our catalog. We never signed the big deal. We never took the money, man. We stayed with the people. And I have a great life. And I look at the bands and they have great lives. And then the ones who have children, they have great children. We have morals. Someone asked me today, what's success? It's honesty. And that's it.

Keith Jopling 11:35

Would you not agree? I absolutely would. One of the absolute pleasures of doing this podcast is that every conversation is honest. You know, whether it's reflection back on the times, I mean, you know, the book is called Riding the Roller Coaster because it that's what it is. And you've had a gentle ride, and that's probably the best way to do it. Everyone reflecting on this whole thing about, you know, struggling first time, and then the industry just takes you, thrusts you into the machine, puts you on a pedestal like you're the best thing since sliced bread. And they know you're going to come down. You don't know at that point, you know, when you're going to come down. So I love the honest perspective.

Kevin Drew 12:19

It comes with age as well. I see a lot of bands, young bands right now, just and I if when I get to talk to them, I I just say, love this. Keep it put in your back pocket. The rainy days come, you know, just love it. Because it's a Joni Mitchell song, man. It just is. You don't know what uh you got until it's gone. It's just it's a stereotype that I think doesn't really need to be spoken about anymore. It's an exhausting story of who gives a shit. But it's the truth. It just life happens.

Keith Jopling 12:55

You're right. It is a cliche. And this so the the podcast is based on the cliche, which was brilliantly expressed by Brett Anderson in his book. So he talks about the career of a band being like the stations of the cross. So he's the lead singer, suede.

Kevin Drew 13:09

Got it.

Keith Jopling 13:10

The London suede, as they were called, for a while in in North America.

Kevin Drew 13:13

Yes, they were.

Keith Jopling 13:14

And it is the struggle, the stratospheric rise to the top, wherever the top is, the crash to the bottom, disintegration, and then rehabilitation renaissance, and then getting to the point where you can actually enjoy it on your own terms. So it's been really fascinating talking to. I mean, I think this is episode 90. So we'll we're getting to 100. We're kind of we're crawling our way to 100. But everyone's had a different version of that story. But it is a cliched story. It's a cliche story.

Kevin Drew 13:47

And um cliche stories need to leave this life. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Oh, tell me about that. I can't handle any more Daisy in the six or bullshit. I can't, all drugs. Everybody's like drugs, drugs, drugs. It's constipation, man. That's what the road's about. It's not about drugs and parting. It's about can my metabolism work while I'm on the road. No one makes that movie. Nobody writes that book. It's all the same shit. And I don't know how that will change, but but it just has to have a new generation come in and tell something different.

Keith Jopling 14:18

Aaron Powell Yeah. I guess it changes through uh just being interested in getting beyond the cliches. And that's of particular interest to me. But it seems to me like we are we're just so deep in cliche at the moment. It's just gonna get a little bit worse, first of all. And AI is not gonna help because it just amplifies it. But let's come back to the album for a minute. Because we're we're getting ahead of ourselves on the roller coaster. This is how I saw it. And I love the the sort of down tempo introduction, those three tracks, because that's a build for me. By the time you get into track four, I guess you're halfway through side one. You get the call, which is the kind of the single, kicks in. And I think it was the first single. So you get a bit of a third was the third.

Kevin Drew 15:03

Okay. Just to hit you.

Keith Jopling 15:04

And then relief, which is again the same. Yeah. And then what I really love, the the when the album first grabbed me, and bear in mind I have not listened to the vinyl, this is just listening to it, you know, from start to finish, comes this kind of almost an interval of this briefest kiss, Life Within the Ground, which takes it down a notch, but in a very, very beautiful way. They're both both beautiful melodies. And that just brings like a sudden depth of field where you think, okay, I think I know what to expect here. I'm gonna be taken on an emotional ride, and that's what an album should do.

Kevin Drew 15:44

I agree. I think it comes with age too, because I've read some reviews where people don't understand that part, and I talk to people who thank you for that part. Um I don't think you set out to be anything except yourselves. I very much hear everyone on this record, including our producer, David Neufeld. It was we knew we were going on a ride with him anyways, because the way that he works is a ride. You want to talk about riding the roller coaster, your book. I'll give this to him when I get back so he can read it, because Dave is the roller coaster that at first you're you want to try to control, then you want to kind of try to trust it. And then when you just let go and ride a roller coaster, it's the most rewarding, fun thing you can do. And we we slowly came back into each other's orbits and we slowly came back with this album. But I'm very I I love the responsibility to sound and melody and uh just the way he mixed it and he took his time to make sure for the headphone listeners, for the speakers, for the cars. So he just he created a map that was undeniable to all of us. We would hear some stuff and we'd say, great, and then we'd change a few things. But because it was an analog world, once you change something, you get something back, it's a totally different mix. So then you have to re-jig and figure that one out. So what you're hearing is essentially us trying to get you from the beginning to the end, which doesn't exist anymore. People don't do that. So we thought because it's not one singer and one sound and one type of song that you know, with or without you on repeat, it's not that. We never to maybe our detriment bought into that. So we just are trying to get you to the end. And it was a guy that worked with us for a long time named Jeffrey Remedios, who's very much now in the just top tier of the music industry. We have such different views because he's in the successful part. But we still own this label together, Arts and Crafts, which I I still to this day find it confusing. He wants to keep it going when he's in this other tier entire, like a different building in a different country. But he said when I first heard it, I thought, no, no one does records. You got to do three, four EPs. He said, then I heard it again and I thought, well, maybe you do two EPs. He said, and then I heard it again. I thought, oh, is it over already? And I went back and listened to it and he said, it's a record. And just him saying that alone, because he was with us sort of from the beginning in terms of the success of You Forgotten People in Opening Arts and Crafts, it was very much we were, we were rolling. You know, 2003 through 2006 were huge. That was three years of just talking about key psyops. We were doing it. And we were that it band, and it was it was it was just nonstop. So it was nice to look back with someone who's been there with you, who's in a different world of music completely. It's business, basically, and business is good for them. You know, the Noah Kons, the Taylor Swift's, the, you know, that's where he is Republican. Or I think, I don't know, he might, I I never know. His job keeps changing. But I'm proud of him. And I'm proud he still understands what we're doing over in this world. At first, you know, thinking, oh, it should be like this, it should be like that. And then he came to the realization, no, it should be you. And you made a record. And though people don't listen to records, I want to listen to this record. So that's what we were trying to do.

Keith Jopling 19:19

I've been trying to unpack this why the album still exists. You know, this is the first book I wrote, Body of Work, which is about the fact that the album it does still exist in this time when it shouldn't. It doesn't really make a lot of sense.

Kevin Drew 19:31

Yeah.

Keith Jopling 19:32

But I feel like the reason he might have said that is because I think, you know, you look at the top-tier artists like the Noah Khan's and Taylor Swifts and Billy Eilish. There's a Lana Del Rey album about to come out. We just had a Harry Styles album out here. Well, around the world, the Rosalia album. They are making albums. They're artists are leaning into this format. They're leaning into the concept album. It feels like there's a great creative raison to make a great album that's a quest. I'm like, what? So it's the artists are doing this. But yet we're we're still saying no one's listening. It's crazy, really, when you think about it.

Kevin Drew 20:11

I'm so glad you mentioned all those artists because they are doing it. I saw Jack Antranoff in an interview, another tier, and I showed it to our producer because he was really worried about like, do people, you know, he's 64 now. He's like, do people still listen to records? And he just sits there and in an interview and talks about the power of why albums still matter.

Keith Jopling 20:31

The album is God. Yeah, it's it's right there. And it was an inspiration for the book. Oh, because him saying that.

Kevin Drew 20:36

Yeah, him when I saw him say that, I thought, well, if you're saying that and you're working with the best of the best, then you're on our side. You know, the to get back to geese, just dealing with all that, like, oh, they cheated, they did this. I'm like, what are you talking about? They broke the system, man. They've the whoever worked with them figured it out. And that happening is great. It's great for everyone. You want to see a band like that become in the get in that herd mentality by a way of fighting. You have to fight.

Keith Jopling 21:08

You absolutely do. You got to get down in the trenches with everybody else, but look what they've brought to it. So they're bringing a new audience. Yeah, they're bringing a new audience to the album. I actually pay a lot of credit to Taylor Swift for kind of bringing that trend back a little bit with folklore and evermore in the pandemic. You know, she did something different. It was kind of indie folk, which was a move away from what we used to from her, and it had this ongoing narrative through it. And it brings the album back into the consciousness. So I'm thinking that people will play this record from start to finish.

Kevin Drew 21:46

I think one of the great things that Swift and bands like that show you too is the relationship with the audience. People say the fans, I say the audience. I gotta say the audience. Uh, you know, where do they sell the most records? On their websites. Not in the record stores, on their websites. Because they have a re they are building a relationship with those who are putting them on the stage. So that was really educational, too, and seeing a lot of these acts, like you said, Harry Styles. You know, I've been monitoring the mainstream a lot because I I want to know. And I find a lot of the production going on right now, uh, the Bieber's last one and Swift and Bad Bunny and even that new Harry Style. I find the production very, very I like it. I like what's happening now. I don't need the world domination aspect that I gotta hear it every time I buy a tomato. That's where I start to say, like, but the people, the the ones that are doing it and pushing it, they're taking chances. And I love hearing things take chances and be uber successful. So it's inspiring to know because we you always have to turn to those people to fix the system. You just do. So if these artists are making albums, then they're respecting all the work that's been done before them. And the idea of they want to tell a story. You know, it's fine. Go have one single. That's fine. Work that world that way. That's great if that's what you want to do. No one's saying that's that's something wrong, but no, we're we're storytellers.

Keith Jopling 23:17

Yeah, I think you're right. I think they're taking the lead on this. I mean, the labels have got to catch up a little bit. You know, they still feel like they're stuck in the world of the viral video and trying to game the system on all of this. And I'm I'm kind of saying, look, you don't have to do that anymore. Your artists are actually giving you permission to do something else. The vinyl resurgence is giving you permission to do something else. Take it on board.

Kevin Drew 23:42

It's smart. I mean, virals the Wild West. The problem with that word is that it's also that word, the way people try to or chase it. Or I see so many of my peers and actually even friends who look uncomfortable promoting themselves or overdoing it promoting themselves. They look too comfortable promoting themselves. There's a very much a falseness to it that takes away from the music you're making to say, hey, I'm gonna be in town next week at the sew, or hey, guess what? We ate for dinner tonight. So people are dying. They're dying. And I gotta hear what you're eating for dinner when I just put your song on really loud to take me away from all this death.

Keith Jopling 24:25

Yeah, you're so right. I I don't think they want to do it. I mean, I I've yet to have a conversation on this podcast with an artist who enjoys posting on social media or wants to do it. Nobody wants to do it. They're just obliged to do it. And it's so fake. And then to what end?

Kevin Drew 24:43

I don't know. I mean, to the end of just, I don't know. It's price surging. Yeah. That's all we're doing. We're just gonna surge ourselves. That's what we're doing. What you buy at 2 30 won't be what you're buying at 5 30. What you feel at 9 30 won't be what you feel at 10 30. You you give it all away, you get on the train. You don't want to do that, but it's too late because it is how it is. Yeah, yeah. That's saying right now.

Keith Jopling 25:08

I'm trying to build the backlash because I think the backlash is happening. So I'm I'm coming back, like the counterculture's coming, but I'm I'm there. I'm just trying to ride that wave and give kids. Yeah, I have three kids. How old? 24, 21, and 18.

Kevin Drew 25:22

Well, there you go. And they're bringing it back. I have nephews, they're in that age range, 18. I have a niece, you know, three of them show me. The kids in the band show me. That generation, that 15 to 25, is a really good generation because as Charles Spear and his daughter, On Dean, taught me, that pandemic showed them a future that they did not want to be a part of. So when you mention AI to a 22-year-old student whose teacher's saying, AI's coming, AI's coming, AI is coming, what do you think they're doing? They're going, no thanks.

Keith Jopling 25:55

I mean, I talked to a lot of uh record store owners since I got back into vinyl. And this is what they're telling me is the it's the 15-year-old kids are coming in with their mom and dad, or, you know, with the with a parent, and they're saying, Look, I even if it's Michael Jackson, I don't want the greatest hits. I want off the wall, I want thriller, I want bad. And they're replenishing the audience of album buyers. I think it's absolutely fantastic.

Kevin Drew 26:21

It is. It is. And stores are going strong. And I think that's what to go back to what your original statement was was it's in stores. Now look, we just did a record. It's 49 minutes. We put it on one vinyl. Everyone raised their hand and said, You can't do it. Emily Lazar, one of the greatest masters out there. I know a lot of great masters. Emily, I love. And I love her as a human, and I love our conversations. And we worked really hard on this record. And they were all like, it has to be a double vinyl, it has to be a double vinyl. And the reason we didn't do it was for the consumer and for the record store. So we're not gonna make a $70 Canadian record, $65 Canadian, probably. We're not gonna do it. So we put it all on one record, and it sounds great. You gotta maybe turn it up a little bit compared to your Harry Styles album, but you know, it sounds great. We wanted to do that for the record stores and for the people that want to buy vinyl.

Keith Jopling 27:22

The art of longevity is powered by Bang' Olifson, the luxury audio brand founded in 1925. For 100 years, Bang'an Olifson has been pushing the boundaries of audio technology and acoustic innovation. Bang and Olifson's products combine beautiful sound, timeless design, and unrivaled craftsmanship. I want to just talk about the closer, parking lot dreams, because again, all good records have a great closer. That's very important to me, always has been. The opening, the closing. I heard this song and I just swore it was a cover version. So I listened to it a few times, and I need to just check out before I do the interview who wrote that song. I didn't know it was an original song. So just tell I want to know the origins of it, where it came from. And it feels to me like there could be a kind of poppier version, because it's again, it's another down tempo one, which is great for closing an album, but it it feels to me like a great pop song.

Kevin Drew 28:25

Thank you. And we do actually, we just played it live the other night and the whole band played it drums and bass. And it was uh, because it's just a sort of acoustic and bass and vocals right now on the record. Um that I could tell you, if you think it's a cover version, it's how I write my songs in a key. And it's the same tuning as the song we have off Hug of Thunder called Skyline, off uh Let's Try the After, a song called Can't Find My Heart, uh, song called Super Connected. Um it's my favorite key to play in and to write in. And I'm basically rewriting. Eno Morricone did this one piece of music that he put in so many films, and he just changed the key or he changed the tempos. And I first heard it in State of Grace, and it was the theme. And then I heard it again in Bugsy, and I went, whoa. Then I heard it again in U-turn, and then I heard it again in Lolita, and I thought, oh, he's reworking this. And I'm not a songwriter that gets in a room, clocks in on a Zoom. The Nashville thing didn't work for me, not in a defensive way, like it actually just I can't do that. It's it goes against why I'm writing songs, not business, but I understand that it is a business. I just thought, no, I it's a subconscious thing for me. I can't tell you when it's gonna come or whatever. I do believe in that I'm a messenger. I do. I follow that. And and also with these these incredible musicians in the band, it's just you you someone brings in a pedal and you've never worked with that pedal before. It's some weird earthquake or pedal. And then you're writing a song based on the pedal you're using, and then someone's like, well, I rented a keyboard and listened to that. And that's a lot of the way that we get you get inspiration from what's with you, what's in your surrounding. And lyrically, for me, it just has to happen fast. And that's what happened with the song. I I knew the chords, I had written it, and I was recently with a a a partner who's now my wife slash uh security guard lover, is what I call her, Rachel. And I was so honored to be with her when my mother was dying. And she had a family member, her sister was very quite sick at the same time. And then in Toronto, there's a lot of bullshit in that city. There just is. It's just a lot of it needs, it's coming around again. Again, the younger generation's gonna come. There's great signs about community and Charles Spear, and he sees a whole other city. But I I I see a lot of the victim culture and the elite and the entitlement and all this. And and I was standing there one night with Rach, and I thought, what an honor it is that I get to be standing next to you when there's so much coming at us. And it just came to me very quickly. And um we were at this this summer camp for for kids over the uh last summer and we we befriended these kids, and it was a friend of ours doing something out in the islands of Vancouver, out in BC, excuse me, sorry. And um the young girls were like, Rachel, does Kevin have a song about you? And I was so happy to say, I do actually. It's gonna come out on the new. And they just wanted, they were actually doing it more like he better have a song about you. Yeah. Because they loved Rachel so much. And I said, I do, I swear, don't worry, guys. I got a song about it's a nice little love song about us versus them, which are always, I think, some of the great songs. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, kind of you and me against the world thing. The almost, too. Like I made I've made a career singing about almost. Like you almost get it. You know, unrequited love is when you live that, it's a wealth of a jukebox that you can just go to at all times. So even with Rachel, the song's about I don't know if we're gonna make it, but we're gonna try. And I think that's what makes you when you hear it, I think you you've heard it before.

Keith Jopling 32:17

Yeah. It's yeah, yeah. But absolutely memory. Yeah, so universal. Yeah. Well, thank you. I do appreciate a good backstory to a lot of people. Is that all right? And that's perfect.

Kevin Drew 32:27

I love her so much. And I I find myself talking about everybody, and I also get so worried every time I mention a partner in an interview throughout my life. I've had so many, I've been blessed. You know, obviously, a lot of people look at it differently when you have a lot of partners. What's wrong with that guy? Or what's wrong with them? Or I don't fall into that. I don't do that story. That's not for me. I'm living my life. I'm blessed to have been who I've been with, and I've learned a lot. You know, I haven't been the greatest partner at times. I've learned from that. I've had women teach me in my life. You know, my mother, my grandmother, and the women, the women in the band, the women who I've dated. I've been just educated by women throughout my life. My dad's my ultimate guy. He takes care of everything for me. He runs the business for social scene. But no, I was prom queen. I wanted to be a woman my whole life growing up. Every Halloween, my mother gets so excited because she knew I was gonna dress up. I used to steal her blouses. It became a bone of contention for her because some of them I didn't realize she didn't wear yet. And I went out to some parties on them. The point is that I think you've got to celebrate more than ever, you know, mother, women, wives, sisters. And then also at the same time, you gotta celebrate the ones, the trans community, the people, the non-binary, the people just want to be themselves. Because it used to be about holding back the women, and now it's about holding back the LGBTQ community and all this and that. Yeah, yeah. And for us, our whole band's about identity, and our whole band is about safety and protection. And it wasn't bullshit. I don't know if we did the best job at times, but we weren't trying to do a bad job. And we weren't trying to go out of our way to use it in a way that weaponizes any of our audience. We always were trying to say, we're gonna, you know, this is a place of our music's trying to be safe. It's trying to help you be safe.

Keith Jopling 34:15

Okay, I want to come onto the whole collective position of the band because that that fascinates me from the perspective of I've interviewed a lot of artists, a lot of solo artists, a lot of bands. And the collective is a kind of unique way of I guess it's a very unique way of coping with the way the industry is. Just before we go there, though, the last thing on the album. So we've established that this you've made a very good album. We've established that albums are back, they still evaporate so quickly. And this is the first album you put out in nine years. Do you worry about that? I mean, how are you going to make this stick around? Do you wish it would stick around? How what can we do about that?

Kevin Drew 34:58

I love that question. Um, because here today, gone today is what we say. I think everybody, and I'm talking about Andrew Whiteman, Charles Spearin, Justin Perhoff, uh, Brendan Cannon, Sammy Goldberg, you know, David Newfeld who produced this. I think ourselves, our team, our management, our agents, our labels, we all know what where we're at and what we're doing. And I've always said it's the little ripples. It's the little ripples that keep you going. Um there's formulas out there. They've never really worked for us, but we do them. You go out, you play live, and what you're trying to do is you're trying to incorporate these songs to become part of the family of songs. And it's in the live show, if you're out there and you're playing a lot, where you just keep playing these things and keep reminding people so that if they come again, they go, Oh, I hope they play uh track six from Remember the Hume, as opposed to, oh, I'm gonna go get a drink. They're playing a new song. That's the other big banner that they put out there for the joke world. I believe that if you have people that are bringing you into their life, they'll they'll keep playing you. There's so much noise, it's hard to rise above. But the story just has to constantly be your working albums. Our our manager, Jake, we just got this is our fifth manager. We've had lovely managers, but he's our fifth one. And we're keep trying to find money. You know, that's what we're trying to do, trying to find money. Where can we make money, money without keeping who you are, keep your integrity. Morals are depends on the day, depends what shoes you're wearing and what's happening in the world. But we said to Jake, it would be great if we could try to keep this thing going and financially keep it going. And my dad runs the business and we have a good team. But Jake came to the table, he said, there are no old records. Every record's new. And no one told us that before. And I thought, wow, he's that's a great way to look at it. Like every album's a new album, to the one that hasn't listened to it. So his whole method is just to push the whole entire catalog and get that out there. And we had a documentary and you know, content, content, content. But I do think, again, success is honesty, and the work speaks for itself. So you're just working to keep the work out there. That's what people like Paul McCartney are still doing. We're still, oh, there's another film, another doc, another. That's because they're constantly trying to keep you thinking about, you know, band on the run, which is a great song.

Keith Jopling 37:30

And does the collective work in your favor or against that? Because for one thing, for one thing, there's so many of you. Both. Okay. And then the other, you're going off, you're doing individual projects, you you don't, you're not necessarily bound by the band 24-7 year after year.

Kevin Drew 37:47

What is our success with the band is also what holds us back as the band. And that's as there's a lot of us. Um, and everyone everyone has a personality, uh, an opinion. And you know, we were obviously blessed with the success of Metric and Stars and Fice. That was so amazing to have. Those guys take off and also be a part of our band. We're not a normal band. Nine years is a long time between albums. I did not suspect that would be the case. It didn't feel wrong though. Nothing feels wrong about anything that we're doing, except just the aspect that we're doing it again at a time where it's even more expensive than it's ever been. So you gotta honor that. And I think as a collective, with this record, it really does feel like a body of work from a lot of people. I mean Leslie showing up with a finished song, Lisa showing up with a finished song. We've never really done that before, but we heard them and we went, oh my gosh. And we can just puke and be beautiful over top of these things to their discretion and control, but in an aspect where it was kind of this works for what we're doing. These songs are a body of work which we're actually working on as well. So we thought, well, let's take them. David really, our producer really showed me, don't stop anything. And I didn't realize I was doing that. You know, you always say, no rules, no rules. And in that aspect, you have a rule right there. So you gotta watch out of the hypocrisy that you have towards yourself and the juxtapositions. You say one thing, you do something else. But this this record, I'm very proud of it because I hear everyone on it. I'm happy about the way it was, it was difficult. And and Charlie and David, I was the in-between. Um, and David poured everything he had into it. And Charlie came in for the mix process big time, just where we would bounce notes off each other and Charlie had a studio and he would listen to things. And it was, you know, every time we went down some sort of friction uh landscape of an escalator, we were better for it. We always went, you know, great glass elevator through the roof. So we never went down. We stayed by each other's sides. It was a lot of work, but we knew we had an audience in a platform where this work would be rewarded, even sitting with you. This is 89. This is my 89th interview. I didn't know you could still do that many. I didn't.

Keith Jopling 40:24

There's a lot of outlets. But I mean, I love the way you're bringing it though. So uh one of the things I like to do with these interviews the social media network I don't mind is Reddit. You've got a pretty good Reddit thread. Oh, I do. As a band, you've got a good Reddit thread. Yeah, go take a look. Take a look. You got a really cool Reddit thread. I don't know Reddit. I got some nice questions. So there's a question about your live performances. And this is from uh T Fresh No Limits. I also like the username. T Fresh No Limits. T Fresh No Limits. And he's talking about, I'll just read it out. It seems like an interesting thing when with touring, where everyone in the audience is hearing the songs fresh, but the band is playing them night after night. I see a lot of bands that are getting through the notes. I like that phrase. And the songs have become kind of boring and rudimentary to play. Broken Social Scene seems to play every concert like it's their last. Does Kevin and the band talk about bringing it every show, making sure the experience really hits, and that they're not just getting another night on tour?

Kevin Drew 41:29

No, you we're if we're there, we're bringing it. It takes a lot to get us there. It costs a lot to get us there. The whole point is to be there. So T Fresh is right. We there's not one person that's banging out the notes to get through the evening. I mean, obviously it's for you. It's not for us as much as it's for those. Those people are paying money. Those people are coming out, those people are taking a risk coming out now in a world of fear and where how safe can you feel? So we we this is what I mean by I don't have time for people that think it's about them. I don't it's not about you, it's not about your band, it's about the people that have chosen you. And that that gets lost usually with men. It's usually just that male ego thing where look at me, look at me, look at me. So no, man, I'm staring at those people saying thank you every night. And Justin, our drummer, he has the way he plays drums, he has to bring it every night. And I gotta be there for him every night because he is just an exceptional player. And when I was a kid, I used to just watch drummers and I think about him every night at a show. I think, man, there's some person out there just getting their mind blown watching Justin. If you don't bring it, he won't allow that. You have to bring it because he is playing his guts out.

Keith Jopling 42:55

The art of longevity is brought to you with Bang and Olifson. Since 1925, Bang' Ollison has created I claim and products to the highest standards of sound, craft, and design. You can find more about the partnership on our web pages, and by signing up to the mailing list where you can then get episodes first, plus invitations to events and objectives. Finally, we want to get to 100 shows and beyond with the earth of longevity. And the only way we can do that is with your help and advocacy. So please rate, review, and share the podcast wherever you can. Back to the conversation to wrap up this episode, and we'll be back with another great guest very soon. One of the things I'm doing in this season, so this is uh, I don't know, season 13, I think. Good number.

Kevin Drew 43:46

I love it.

Keith Jopling 43:47

And uh now the book is out riding the roller coaster, just testing some of the themes. In fact, what you mentioned earlier is managing your hypocrisy. I thought about managing your your own contradictions. I should have put that in as a theme. I'll work on that for a Third book. Yeah, the book two or whatever. This is an obvious one. In a way, it's just it's a dumb question to ask, but it it will work. One of the themes is see band lineup changes as a natural part of your evolution. And again, as a collective, how has that worked over the years? Because it's slightly different, isn't it? People come in and going out, and you've got this organic thing that sustains that happening.

Kevin Drew 44:26

I think that it's worked kind of magically. I mean, there was also a time in 2000, 2008 where we would come into town, we would be in Singapore or Mexico, and we would find local bands, um, you know, humans from local bands to sing with us, women to sing with us. And that was at a time where Lobby, Lisa Lobsinger, wasn't with us. Leslie had actually done an interview where she said, Oh, you know what? I'm not really part of Broken Social Scene anymore, which really hurt because we were out there struggling to keep this thing going. And uh, I don't think that was her intention to do that. And she came right back, which was lovely every time. And Emily and Jimmy were just crushing it. They were out there with Metric and Starz was so there's just a sense of loyalty. I we just played that just like Heaven Festival, and we were on the same lineup as Metric. And I called Emily and left her a message just saying, like, look, I don't want you to assume that you need to get up with us because I know it's you got your own show. And she just left me a mess, called me back, just we're coming, we're gonna play. We got to do the song. And I'm always hesitant to ask them of anything because they gave us so much. No, even financially, they gave us so much. They would come and they would play and say, Great. So that's what's interesting about this tour we're about to go on is it's just a guaranteed during our set that everyone's gonna be up there. So it's metrics tour, it's a friendship tour that they put together. They worked very hard to put it together, and they're taking all the risk. And I just think uh it's very cool of them to do this. And when things are ever changing, it keeps you in a in a world of that word fresh. It just you're able to never truly really get on anyone's nerves because there's enough people that you can bounce through while you're doing this life. And um, I'm just grateful for everyone that's come on board and still coming on board and the support that we got through other people's success. You want people to do well. If you don't, you're on the wrong side.

Keith Jopling 46:34

Yeah, yeah. I love that. Because this is the reason why bands implode most times, right? It's this the dysfunctional family is.

Kevin Drew 46:41

I drank that. I drank that. I went off and tried solo stuff, and I can't say I wasn't uh mad at other people's successes at times in my life or why don't I have that? Come on. Come on, come on now. Got a heart, got a brain, got a human being. Vulnerability is inside of my lungs at all times. But you get there. If you want to, you get there. You just go, no, I gotta know what I have, and I gotta make sure everybody else is able to have what they need. And also the idea, which I love of when you know this, you have this opportunity, but you know you can't really do it, but you don't keep it to you, you figure out in your in your lineup of many people in your life and who you've met, who is it good for? That's the greatest feeling, I think, personally, as I, you know, come on, man, I'm getting, I'm 50. So now I can really start giving opportunities because I know so many people. I uh, you know, I the roster is huge. And sometimes these opportunities come up. I go, man, I would love to do that, but it's not gonna work for me, or I can't, or this. But who in that I know could possibly benefit or could pull that off, or I should try to see if they can go. I love doing that now. I I always did that, but there's something about it when you're older where it actually becomes a bit like a job where you're connecting people more and more. You know, I have friends who I send them scripts from certain people. They'll write me like, can you send so-and-so this script? And I'll be like, you know what? Sure.

Keith Jopling 48:06

I'll help you. It's one of the things you feel like you need to give back. You need you need to do that little bit of, I'll help you out. You're coming through. I've been there.

Kevin Drew 48:13

I've been there, exactly. And I love that too uh with seeing what's getting put out there. And I and I want to be there. If someone's struggling, call me. I want to help you. I know this life.

Keith Jopling 48:26

Let me pull a question from Reddit.

Kevin Drew 48:28

No, sorry. That's relevant to that. Okay.

Keith Jopling 48:32

Going back to we talked about the sort of uh golden period of albums almost. I feel like that's also the case for Indy. I mean, you mentioned Geese. Yeah. There was this great alb album last year as well, Water from Your Eyes. The Geese Water from Your Eyes, these bands were dominated by. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yes.

Kevin Drew 48:53

That came out strong.

Keith Jopling 48:54

Caroline 2. Yeah, that album last year was another one where these great uh there's just a fantastic array of indie records. So this question is okay, this was about your opening for Boy Genius. Again, another, you know, they've taken indie back to the big time in a way. Do you see some heritage and influence from Broken Social scene in today's indie scene?

Kevin Drew 49:20

Uh where I want to see it more is in friendship. That's where I want to see it. Yeah. Um, I always felt that Justin, our drummer, when we were coming up, a lot of drummers. He influenced a lot of drummers. And I'm not gonna mention name bands, but they were better for listening to him. I thought he was our biggest musical influence. Obviously, getting together and clapping hands. My dad used to ride about arcade fire all the time because they just came in and just took it. And we were doing the joyous like switch instruments around and they showed up and were boom. Uh, but the music was fantastic and the the songwriting was fantastic, and and uh that was great to see because that brought so much joy. And I think when you see a collection of people partying for humanity through their music and all play I'm on drums now, or I'll play bass, or I'm gonna go over the keys, that was something that was really happening in our time. And in that influence, I would never say I because we're just such an array of musicians that love music, like we really are. We are music listeners. Um, with this radio show I have now, I listen to the underdogs again. I'm I'm going in and finding all kinds of people. And I love it because I love songs. I love music that connects you. So I don't know how to answer the question as if do we I think there's influence in everything. Really, I do. I mean, we are a GCF band, sometimes be, and then when I put on a capo, I'm always mesmerized. But we never took for granted the word hope. We never made that a marketing campaign. Some people are trying to sell this record on nostalgia. It's like, it's not nostalgia, man. We're just, if it is, it's of the heart. It's not some kind of marketing campaign where we're trying to tap into because we never had anything to tap into. Our success was our success. You said it yourself. We never really got any bigger and we never really got any smaller. We just sort of stayed where we were. And um, the respect and love towards us is not lost on any of us, not on any of us, because we know what we did. It was a hard time when we came out, and we were kind of the first to arrive in that indie rock scene outside of you know, bands of strokes and that meet me in the bay. Obviously, they were dominating, but in our country, it was hard to get outside. And suddenly it bloomed in a way where everyone did well. So I want to see that influence more. And I want to see the friendship be an influence musically, like it's all the same core. It's all plagiarism, kids. Come on. You know that. Hello.

Keith Jopling 52:12

Come on. I mean, but yeah, so does that represent your internal code pact, the friendship thing? Is that at the center of it? Because that's the other, that's the other theme, is have a code and pack to work to because it is you against the rest of the world, essentially.

Kevin Drew 52:27

Yeah, but we want to do it with you. And we want to not judge, which is really difficult, but we don't. Like that's the problem that happened in this last five, six years. Everyone started judging and being decisive and defensive, and everyone can now talk to everybody and say, you know what, fuck you. You suck. You're like, I suck. Fuck you, man. You suck. And that kind of represents what we're doing right now. So to get everyone in a room and just try to make those two hours of your show not be about any of that. Just be about like we have this church right now where we can be all together. And when you leave, I'm hoping there's a feeling inside of you that unites with the persons and the people around you, and you go off and that just gets coughed up a little bit. That's the cold and flu that I want to create. So that kind of, oh, hey, are you okay? You all right? That's how I answer my phone. And some people go, why do you answer your phone that way? Because I want to know if you're okay. Are you okay? Because if you're not, well, I got time for you. I just do. And this band, though we've been around a long time, we're struggling. I'm not gonna lie, we're struggling, but we're struggling because we're family. And you know, families, I love you, but I don't like you. And we're family, and we've know each other so well that I always say, you can go and you can do your ayahuasca retreat, and you can read the self-help books. And you, I've changed. You go back to your family and they go, here's the photo album of who you were and what we saw. And you just have to remember, no, you've got to allow space for these humans that come back into your life to be who they are now and not hold them accountable or put handcuffs on them to say, oh, this is who I think you are. So that's gonna be really interesting with this tour we're about to go on. Will people allow people to be themselves now as opposed to who we all grew up with? Because you are who you are. And anytime someone says, you know, I've changed, that's not a good sign. Already, ooh, maybe don't don't don't open with that. Because who you're changing for? You understand what toxicity is. Most human beings do. It's a choice if they want to be a fucking asshole. And a lot of the times it might not be a choice because of how you're raised, the trauma that everyone's a victim of a victim. People have been hurt. There is so much pain that is going around right now that is riding that I have ADHD wave that's happening, that craze of like, oh my God, I can't believe I got tested. I have ADHD. So, well, most people do. And people have trauma and that linearity, that history for some more than others. You know, my ladies, Metis in Scottish, Metis is not even really recognized right now in Canada as an indigenous group of people, though it is if you're from the Red River. But if you're from Ontario, I I've heard conversations from my colonial friends where I think, what are you even talking about? What are you even talking about? You're questioning a blood linear identity that's not for you. They're gonna have to figure it out. But we're standing here on stolen land talking about government grants and why they're going to certain people and not others. It's just lost.

Keith Jopling 55:43

I love the fact that you're embracing that role as an artist and a musician, a band leader, to, as you said earlier, you know, be a messenger in that way. And I feel like that's a responsibility a lot of artists are ready to take on. I think that's a fantastic. I think it's putting music in a good place.

Kevin Drew 56:00

Yeah. I mean, this is the success that I got. My success now is who I am. Nothing really changed after 2006, man. That's 20 years ago. Like, I don't have, I never wrote a hit. The bands never wrote it. Oh my god, these songs.

Keith Jopling 56:16

Yeah, you got by without the hit.

Kevin Drew 56:17

But you you had the big songs, though. So those have done some things for you. Yes, right. Very much so. I just want to embrace the truth. Truth hurts. It's a saying that needs to come back more than ever. We heard that a lot when you and I were growing up. Truth hurts. Let it hurt you, because then you can move on.

Keith Jopling 56:39

Yeah, I think we need to find it.

Kevin Drew 56:41

Yeah.

Keith Jopling 56:41

We're coming up for time, Kevin. I've loved this chat. I guess my question is, you know, you're six albums in, you're you're, as you say, you're 25 years in, you're surviving. You have been on that roller coaster to some extent, a slightly different version of it. And here you are still making a great album. You know, it's as good as anything you've done before. It is possibly the best thing you've ever done. What's the what is your sense of the future?

Kevin Drew 57:09

I think this is what we do. We play shows, we make records. So much goes to David Newfeld, just coming back into our lives. To Charles Spearin, to Justin Perroff, to Andrew Whiteman, to Brendan Canning, Sammy Goldberg, Lisa Lobsinger, Ariel Ingel, gosh, her voice on Briefest Kiss. I mean, Breakfast and Economy, Andrew Whiteman, Lisa Lobsinger, Hannah George's Leslie Feist, you know, David French, Evan Cranley. Evan Cranley from Stars is a mascot to me in life now. He's become that's who I look to. That's the standard I look to. And I look at my band and say, be Evan, and we're gonna be great. I know I probably forgot somebody because I usually do. Oh, Jill. Oh, Jill Harris, thank gosh. Uh just another bouncing ball of innocence and the right kind of human emotion who came in and went on tour with us because we didn't have Amy and we didn't and Amy Milan singing the song. That's my favorite song, and I think of you. That's my bestie. I met Amy when I was 13 years old at Summer Camp. And that's what this thing is. It's people went to great, Jimmy Shaw, Ivan Cranley, Chris Sullivan, they went to grades Torquell from starting. They went to grade school, middle school. I went to high school, summer camp. There isn't a person in this band. Jason Collette, I was nice, Andrew Wayman's the only one. I was and Leslie. I was in my early 20s. Everyone else I remember as a teenager. And there's something to be said about that. That's the class right there.

Keith Jopling 58:41

I mean, it's a very collaborative business. Making an album is a collaborative thing, but I think you are that writ large.

Kevin Drew 58:48

Yeah.

Keith Jopling 58:48

And the fact that you it can all go into a cohesive piece of work is kind of a well, it is a miracle.

Kevin Drew 58:54

Just really quickly, it was also our crew in Toronto, our friends, people writing about us, pushing us, our partners, our partners of today, our partners of yesterday. It it really took a village, and that's what it is with this thing. It's a village. It's not, my success is not a I always say this not of an individual, it's of a group of people. And Broken Social Scene's success is not of a band, it's of everyone over the last 26 years, including the audience, who decided we want this.

Keith Jopling 59:25

Kevin, thank you so much. I think I've got a bunch of questions I didn't ask, but I think we have I think we've covered the longevity one way or another. So I really appreciate it coming back.

Kevin Drew 59:34

I love this. I look forward to reading Writing on Roller Coaster. I'll give that to David Newfeld. I've got another copy.

Keith Jopling 59:39

Yeah, you can take a copy back for David as well. I love that. Have a blast tonight. Have a blast on the tour.