The Scotchy Bourbon Boys
The Scotchy Bourbon Boys love Whiskey and every thing about the industry! Martin "Super Nash", Jeff "Tiny", Rachel "Roxy" Karl "Whisky" and Chris "CT" all make up The Scotchy Bourbon Boys! Join us in talking everything and anything Whiskey, with the innovators, and distillers around the globe. Go behind the scenes of making great whiskey and learn how some of the best in the whiskey industry make their product! Remember good whiskey means great friends and good times! Go out and Live Your Life Dangerously!
The Scotchy Bourbon Boys
Unveiling Whiskey Mastery: At Middle West Spirits with Owner CEO Ryan Lang!
Craft distilling in Ohio is thriving, with Midwest Spirits paving the way for unique whiskey flavors. The episode dives deep into the process of aging, blending, and the importance of local agriculture while highlighting upcoming innovations and products.
• The evolution of Midwest Spirits through COVID
• The significance of understanding international palates
• Aging and consistency challenges in whiskey production
• Insights into barrel selection and its impact on flavor
• Preview of exciting new releases from Midwest Spirits
Discover the secrets behind the success of Middle West Spirits as we sit down with Ryan Lang, the visionary owner-operator, to uncover how his brand expanded its presence to 45 states and is now venturing into international markets. You'll learn how Ryan navigated the turbulent waters of the COVID-19 pandemic, not just surviving, but thriving by adapting to new market dynamics and expanding his distribution network. Join us as we also explore the unique characteristics that set American whiskeys apart, particularly their sweet, dessert-like profiles that are captivating palates worldwide.
Step into the enchanting world of Whiskey where creativity meets tradition. Ryan shares his dedication to crafting full cask strength bourbon series, emphasizing the balance of consistency and creativity in every bottle. We celebrate the launch of innovative product lines while reflecting on the transformative role of automation in whiskey production. From the evolution of whiskey making to the joyous experience of tasting aged bourbons, this chapter is a toast to tradition and innovation coalescing in every sip.
Understand the profound artistry in whiskey production from blending to barrel crafting, exploring the intricate dance of variables that influence flavor profiles. We delve into the meticulous care involved in sourcing local grains and managing supplies, highlighting the importance of collaboration with farmers and experts. Finally, we unravel the complexities of aging, from the origin of oak barrels to the unique qualities of Indiana and Ohio bourbons, particularly a standout four-grain whiskey ready to make its mark against industry giants. Join us on this flavorful journey, where complexity meets approachability, promising an unforgettable experience.
voice over Whiskey Thief
If You Have Gohsts
Add for SOFL
https://www.scotchybourbonboys.com
The Scotchy bourbon Boys are #3 in Feedspots Top 60 whiskey podcasts in the world https://podcast.feedspot.com/whiskey_podcasts/
What's up? Scotchy Bourbon Boys fans, this is Alan Bishop of. If you have Ghosts, you have Everything. You may know me better as Indiana's Alchemist of the Black Forest, but if you're at all interested in the Fortean high strangeness, the paranormal and the unexplained, then you should tune into my new podcast. If you have Ghosts, you have Everything available now, wherever you get your podcasts, including Spotify, google Podcasts and Amazon.
Speaker 2:That's nice. That's nice, you did that, thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you, you're welcome. Who did that? I didn't do it for him. I didn't do it for him.
Speaker 2:I used to do it for him. I used to do it for him. I used to do it for him. I used to do it for him. I used to do it for him.
Speaker 3:I used to do it for him. I used to do it for him. I used to do it for him. It's awesome.
Speaker 2:It's awesome. Oh yeah, All right, Welcome back to another podcast of the Scotchy Bourbon Boys. This is a special podcast because once I'm here with Ryan Lane, the owner operator of Midwest Spirits, we're at his what would you call this distillery.
Speaker 3:It's our Allen Creek facility, the Allen Creek facility.
Speaker 2:So now he's got different facilities. Yes, now is the restaurant at the old place still open? It is, yeah, service bar.
Speaker 3:That's the courtland plant with service bar. It's still running.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, that's uh fantastic, but it's like kind of cool having two different. You know we started out initially over there yeah, over there and you told me this was gonna happen.
Speaker 2:But you know we've been with you every step, so you've seen everything from the beginning. Yeah, and it's, it's exciting. I mean, uh, you know, the one thing I got to say is that we were it's just probably about a year ago when we were here, and the years gone by so fast. I mean, we've kind of talked in between a little bit and cause, you know, just texting back and forth and setting stuff up, but I just can't believe how fast time actually does go to get to this point.
Speaker 2:Now it probably went a little bit slower for you.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:There were some days that you probably wish were speeding up when you're starting to open up a facility as big as this.
Speaker 1:But let's get right into it.
Speaker 2:What is the capacity of this place at current of what you're doing? It's large. I'll tell you that I never tell.
Speaker 1:I never get numbers. I ask you the question. That's what it is, but it's large.
Speaker 2:So you have all this. You know what you're doing. And then the Middle West spirits. It it's a, it's already an established brand on the shelf, especially here in Ohio. Yep, you know it's been there for a while Now.
Speaker 3:You said you're on in 45, we're in 45 States currently, yeah, and working on a couple other countries as well. So, yeah, it's grown quite a bit. I would say during COVID we we saw most of the growth, believe it or not. Like year one of COVID it just opened up, like the market started opening up. And you know, last year was obviously a challenge for everybody. But you know, the distribution base grew quickly. We were in seven markets, really only selling in three or four prior to that and then, as our stock started aging out and we had volume to start putting into market, uh, it was a lot easier to start to go state to state.
Speaker 2:so which is interesting. Um you, how you do go about this? Um, there's not a lot of uh distilleries in ohio that are, you know, work. This is not the standard, but you're, this has the volume right here to like. Now you have pretty much when you were doing that in your building. Now you have the backup, now you're definitely going to do the volume you're talking.
Speaker 2:Now I will say based off of your Michelangelo, your base Middle West spirits. It's international. I mean, I look at the label and and it does make sense to get into other countries. There's not that much you really have to change, except maybe their culture. I mean, that's one thing. I mean you talk to someone from Australia and you know it's Jim Beam, but it's not technically bourbon anymore, because they usually put their spirits out at 70, whatever.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they drop the proof, they make adjustments to it for sure, right, and it's based off a market. It's smart.
Speaker 2:I mean, it was bourbon, until they dropped the proof. So yeah, you got it and that's you know when you're getting into those markets, you really do have to do the intricacies for them, right?
Speaker 3:markets. You really do have to do the intricacies for them, right? Yeah, I mean, every market's different and you know you have to understand the palates are different as well. So you do have to make adjustments. As you're going international and most of those guys know it. And the crazy thing is is like American whiskeys, rye whiskeys, bourbons primarily their reach beyond our borders are limited. They're not very deep into those other markets yet, so the opportunity is pretty sizable. Pronominently scotch is drived most of those sales. So the opportunity is there. It just takes time because the palates are different. This is more of a sweeter product than what scotch is. So you are going against that headwind.
Speaker 2:It's the dessert. It it is, it's a dessert that's what we're gonna call it.
Speaker 3:I always I mean you're talking parmellanilas I did um, actually darling, roxy's with us tonight.
Speaker 2:Uh, today, um I did bring something for us to taste. Okay, uh, it's in that, the green bag, and I also. You should grab that out. It's the little um it's over there on the chair. And then there's also the my gift to Ryan. Oh, I have a gift. Oh, thanks, because this is, uh, there is eight out of I have 18. So 16 people are in. You're going to be the 16th person, okay.
Speaker 1:So there is this which I want you to taste. This is 1981.
Speaker 2:Where did you get?
Speaker 1:that this was at Revival she bought it for me, for my birthday, but this right here is a scotchie.
Speaker 2:Oh, look at that. Bourbon Boys. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:We give this to friends of the podcast and you we give this to the friends of the podcast and you're definitely a friend of the podcast you know, I just order.
Speaker 2:Every time I do an order, I order six and then usually I have the club, that someone you know. There's certain levels that you can buy into, but all the distillers and everything and the people that help us out and are good to us, I'd love to give that out. That's great.
Speaker 3:It's a great. I love the guy that out. That's great. It's a great book. I love the doc. That's awesome and we love Marty, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Everybody loves Marty, but you know before we get into your stuff, yeah, let's do it. Do you have an extra glass? I have plenty. Do you have a glass? No, okay, take one second. Yeah, this is the 1981 old, just so. You bought this for me. I didn't even know how you got this out without me knowing. I'm sneaky.
Speaker 1:You're sneaky, I'm a trickster.
Speaker 2:I can't believe it. Now you've had it right. I've given you a sip of this.
Speaker 1:Yes, one time.
Speaker 3:A very small sip. I will reciprocate with you so you can take that one oh thank you.
Speaker 2:So now we're doing. Yes, there we go.
Speaker 3:All right, so I'm sure Marty's watching. He's like.
Speaker 2:I've got to save some for Nash because I promised him I cannot believe you found this.
Speaker 3:Let me see that bottle that is amazing, it's 1981.
Speaker 2:See, this is the stuff I love about this category, but I've had so many different dusties. Okay, wow, but I just want you to nose that dusty.
Speaker 1:It's insane it doesn't I know it's like a dusty.
Speaker 2:Look the caramel butterscotch. It almost smells like a butterscotch wow, that's something, that's something 81 where was that?
Speaker 3:made, does it say.
Speaker 2:I think it's Frankfurt it is Frankfurt, the old Taylor. Oh man, and it's.
Speaker 3:You know, it's 86, proof is this the old Castle and Key do you believe the old Taylor.
Speaker 2:I don't know. You believe the old Taylor. I don't know, I don't know what it's done. It'd be interesting to find out, find out where it was actually.
Speaker 1:I don't know, there's so many different places with this.
Speaker 2:I mean Beam had this.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And Trace was able to get it from Beam, so it could be the Frankfurt facility which I now know Fort B makes whatever basil hay. It could have been there.
Speaker 3:That's what I was thinking See, this is the history of the category in the bottle and I love it Everything. And look at that, it's a screw top with you know it's got a tamper proof on it. Oh, it was I broke the seal.
Speaker 1:Oh, did you really? Because I think this is what it's like. It's just like a little bit of a paper proof on it. Oh, it was. I broke the seal. Oh, did you really.
Speaker 2:Because I think this is what it's so good. It's like what did they do to make that Must?
Speaker 3:be the corn you know. Just just to have that old bottle is fantastic. That's something else.
Speaker 2:And it's like, when I get stuff like this, you know, it's one thing. Well, I could just let it get older and older, but they put it in that bottle. They definitely put it in this bottle so that people would drink it.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, you don't want to let that oxidize. You need to drink that yeah.
Speaker 1:No, that's nice.
Speaker 3:Where did you find that? In like an auction or something?
Speaker 2:No, this is a revival with Brad Bonds, which is right in his place, is in the Covington Hotel and he just does vintage spirits and now he's got a bar and everything. I mean he would love to have you down there.
Speaker 1:That's what he does. He was just wild in there when we were there. That's a nice gift. That's a nice does. He just gets wild in there when we were there. That's a nice gift.
Speaker 3:That's a nice gift.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm nice and toasty now, oh yeah, it was good to start off with right.
Speaker 3:All right, all right, thank you, appreciate it Welcome. Thank you, yeah. Yeah, it's pretty neat.
Speaker 2:It's awesome. I would say that when we first it's been a little bit when we came down at the other place, we were tasting your stuff. Talk about now what's in your bottle. Here we were talking about it and. I can't wait because I'm excited.
Speaker 3:So at the end of last year for the holiday, we released a cash strength and everything. Obviously to do that, because of the volume reduction from your barrel dumps, you have to have everything. Obviously to do that. Because of the the volume reduction from your barrel dumps, you have to have the volume. To do that.
Speaker 3:Um, we're I don't know what you categorize this, as everybody tries to say we're indie or whatever um, the reality is is we don't. We don't buy and blend, we're making everything from scratch here. We control all of our agriculture. We're managing, you know, 25, 30,000 acres of growth here to make our products and have been doing that for a very long time. And now we're getting to a point where the stock that we laid up over the years, the volumes, are getting large enough for us to actually do not just cash strength in like a barrel, which we did for a while, single barrel cash strength.
Speaker 3:Now we can actually do a permanent lineup of cash strength. So every state that we're distributed in, if the distributor can take the series, we have the volume to support it, which was very difficult because it takes a long time to build that up. So you have your base lineup and then adding in a full cash strength series. Now, on top of that, uh, it has has been, uh, it's taken a long time, uh, and this stuff is all getting much older, you know, and there could be some changes going down the road too, so we're looking at some different bottle profiles and stuff like that, but. But we're really happy that we were able to launch this over the holiday season and it went really well well, I always.
Speaker 2:I always find there's different brands and sometimes you hear stories like on one brand we would never change it. And then you find out the reason why they never change it because they're doing a five or six year and because when they age it a little bit further it's actually a different brand. It's the same discoloration as age. So there's so much you can do as you go along and you're getting to that point. But at the same time I'm excited that now you've got there's no, I've tasted some really good four and five year old bourbons. They might. But then you work with the distiller and you go and you start tasting the seven and eight year olds and it's night and day. You know what I barrel's starting to.
Speaker 2:Now it does come down to People don't really understand, especially you're distilling your own stuff. But when you do a brand, one consistency a lot of times I felt was the most important thing forever. It was the hardest thing for any distillery to do. It is. But now, once we've we probably in the early 2000s consistency with start of automation and whatever consistency got a lot more consistent for our brand and instead of everybody being boring and just putting the same thing out, which that is a big part of any market. There's no doubt there are people who the big part of that 80% of that whiskey market they want. When they buy that bottle they want it to keep tasting the same. That's right. But when you taste something from 1980, like we just did and you taste something now, it can slowly evolve into something else. There's no doubt.
Speaker 3:I have Taylor over there from today. It does not taste like that. No, right, exactly.
Speaker 2:The corn all changes the mass of whatever.
Speaker 3:Environment, aging, everything.
Speaker 2:But I think, even from 2017, 18, when I first started getting into this, to now, I really feel a lot of brands have gotten a little bit sweeter and they're they're a little bit better because, whatever the reason is, as far as I think the aging aspect of this area of the united states, it might be a little bit warmer. You know, you get whatever and you still get the cold and I think just it's been ideal for the last eight, nine years years for aging whiskey. So then, a lot of times, you know you have barrels that don't and this is what my question is going to be you get the barrels that aren't the extreme winners. You know what I mean, because it's all different.
Speaker 1:You have all different levels.
Speaker 2:And a lot of people would then make their small batch and blend them all so it tastes consistent. But you know it's not their higher end stuff what they're doing. But talk about the aspect of blending because people don't realize, even though it's the same distillate and it's being put in the same barrel makers barrels, when you get to it you're going to, you get hot barrels, you get bland barrels and as a blender of a brand, that's very important to use them all correct.
Speaker 3:That's right. Yeah, you do, and that is a huge challenge and it's one that we're constantly working on. You know. It's training people to do it, training people to do selections, training people to put the blends together, how you blend them, how you're adding the water to the blend before you do your filtration. What filtration are you using?
Speaker 3:There are a lot of variables that go into those selections and we're ever-evolving that as well. We want to get better all the time. We're constantly pushing the barrel profile. We're constantly pushing because your grain profiles will sunset. So as you put something in the ground, that's your choice. For that specific type of grain, it has seven to 10 years and then you have to go to the next product and the next product and the next product. So you're constantly looking at that.
Speaker 3:I mean every selection is important and blending is terribly important for what you're trying to do, because they are. I mean we can have the same run, the same barrels from the same tree production, same skid, same position in the facility, same age, and you try the two and they are nowhere near each other and that's pretty consistent. The one thing that is consistent is it will be inconsistent. It will be inconsistent off the still mash to mash, to mash to mash, it'll be inconsistent out of the barrel. It's the job of the blenders to put those together to make sure that you know batch one of this is going to match batch eight as we start putting this out in the market. And yeah, that's something we're constantly pushing the needle on and constantly educating ourselves on, and there are people that do really well out there, so we're fortunate that we work with a couple guys that are very helpful in that matter.
Speaker 2:Well, plus you have to your grain, the grain is being produced for you to make these.
Speaker 1:you know you basically work with local farmers, but people don't actually realize it's never talked about like it is in wine.
Speaker 2:There are better yields of better corn from year to year. If there was a drought in the middle, the corn's different and you are getting those and you do evaporate and put it in. But all you got to do is taste your white dog off the still and you can tell, compared to other white dogs, what detail that you're putting into it. You've got it covered on all the different levels.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, if you can brew well and get to a point that what comes off the still is ready, you know, as a white dog, very consumable, balanced, and everything you got half of it taken care of. Then the barrel comes in and it's applying a ton of extra flavor and material and time and how you manage that and how you watch the casks and all that kind of stuff Very, very critical. But yeah, you've got a whole ton of the flavor going in yeast, water, grain and yeah, you're right, we can buy corn from northern Ohio versus southern Ohio, same strain from what we plant and you take and you run a wash off of them and they're different. So yeah, it's very important to know that stuff. We try to control as much as we can on the grain side because it's the beginning of everything.
Speaker 2:Well, and the same thing when you're doing your runs. You know the grain gets grown and then it gets processed and then it sits in silos and you have a whole winter. We're not growing corn in the midwest but you still need corn, correct. You do so. That's very important, that that's all being processed and they're good at it. But at the same time I've heard many kind of things when you get to the end and you're starting the new growing season, you're trying to distill.
Speaker 3:it can be stale, you can be or some mold you can be rejecting loads of corn uh, yeah, and we we've got you know we have guys that do that. I mean we're monitoring the materials coming in. I mean we bake our rye when it comes in. We actually do something with it. So we know if it's good or not, if it's not carrying any issues and fungus.
Speaker 3:So yeah, there's a ton of considerations. There's the bottom of the silos. You get a lot of waste, so a lot of the chaff falls to the bottom of the silos. So you know, when a load comes in, we have big cleaners over here, so we run everything through cleaners and you'll know the cleaning bin just gets completely full. So yeah, there are considerations on all of them. You can't control everything, but at least if you know what's going on, you can at least try to make what's coming off the still as good as it could be. So then by the time it hits the barrel, then that half's done. Then you can go focus on the rest, which is, what are your barrels like? How many dry aging seasons are you going through? Where are they in the warehouse? What are the temper changes in the warehouse? And then ultimately, six, seven years down the road, then you have to go in and blend. So, uh, but that is our game, that is whiskey, that's what it takes and that's one thing I've always known.
Speaker 2:You're just but all right. So you've done this whole process and we're you're producing. What was the biggest surprise to you? That you didn't. You didn't what. Was there anything that you weren't expecting that happened? That it was just.
Speaker 3:You were like well, that's different than what I thought uh, you mean with the new facility or just in general over?
Speaker 2:time In general and the whole process.
Speaker 3:I mean, I think the biggest challenge on the oak side, the education on oak has been interesting and the amount of variables and flavors that are impacted in the final product by that. And it's been a true education and it's through trial and error and it's also through the partners that we work with and them educating us and stuff. You just don't understand how many variables there are on that side. It's a lot. So most people are like, ah, it's just a char 4. It isn't just a char 4. There's a ton of stuff that you've got to make decisions on to make sure that that product is where it needs to be. And sometimes it costs more to do the things you want to do. And that's okay because our goal is to make the best possible product. We can down the road, let it age out and compete. And yeah, I think that the the surprise happens over time on the barreling because you don't actually find out for years. So you can see it, you track it, you take it, you taste it, you pull samples and whatnot. Color changes, temperature changes in warehouses, all that stuff how much it affects the finished good. But ultimately you know how was the wood treated, how was it air dried? How was it kiln dried? You know all of these. Was the wood treated? How was it air dried? How was it kiln dried? You know all of these things are massive.
Speaker 3:Where was it grown? Huge factors. We're very fortunate, um, that we have space side is just down the road. Space like cooper, I don't know. You guys have been a wonderful place, wonderful place. So it's been a massive education over the last six, seven years. As they've grown and we've grown together. They've helped us out tremendously to increase our knowledge base on making the right decisions for our stuff, not for today, for the new plant, but I'm talking 10 years down the road. We've made a lot of those decisions. There's far more on that side than I would ever have imagined when we started. You've got good brewing, you can learn the distillation, you can make good still product, but then there's this whole other variable that has so many factors to it that you just can't understand.
Speaker 2:So, greg, Schneider was the head of the Cooperage for Brown Foreman for eight years. So when he came in and started his brand he was telling us that he got the great Midwest Barrel Company. He told them how to do it but they were pulling the oak off the shade side of the mountain for his barrels. See.
Speaker 2:And he was getting more rings and he'll'll get into Tyloses and he gets into all the different you know things of how to do it. And then he had, and then he handpicked all the, the, the, the staves for 600 barrels every single time for like three years and then he would have it seasoned, I think it. I think he went with uh, with it was 11 months or whatever seasoning. He said it has that's like whatever, and he needed the barrels. But then he was toasting it. He'd have him just put a toast on it, then the char, then you know. So he really told that, taught us about that.
Speaker 1:He thinks 80% to 90% of the flavor comes from the barrel yeah, I've heard that fact but in the same sense, as you know, at three and four years the barrel isn't've heard that fact.
Speaker 2:But but in the same sense, as you know, at three and four years the barrel isn't influencing. It's influencing it, but not as much as like when you get into the seven, eight years. Then the influence really starts to take over and it's great.
Speaker 3:Yeah, unless it's not, unless it's not now. I've heard so much. We've had a lot of not. We We've seen the not, so we've learned the hard way.
Speaker 1:So I'll just throw out, you know a 25-year-old crown apple.
Speaker 2:I mean, why are you apple-flavoring 25-year-old Canadian whiskey? Because, guess what? It needed apple. And then they sold it for $250 a bottle and it worked. Sold out, probably. So if you're crown, you know that's one thing you can do. Right, but no, but that's the same thing it's like, as you know, when you start to understand you understand why people do stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, there's a reason why big guys have flavored whiskey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah's hard to manage all of the variables, because it's just so much. The volumes are crazy.
Speaker 3:You can't go to Joe Farmer and say I want you to do this. It's normally going through commodity brokers because the volumes are just tremendous and it's the same on the oak side. It's like it's too much, you can't handpick. I want that mountain, I want that, I want that. But it is an important variable because on the shady side of a mountain the trees are going to grow slower, so you have more rings, you have a smaller tree. It takes longer time for that tree to mature before you harvest it. So your tannins and vanillins are different than something that was on the sunny side and then something that grows in Missouri versus something that grows in Ohio. They're going to be a lot larger than our trees in a shorter period of time. So it changes the variables of what comes out of the oak too.
Speaker 3:Right, we're lucky that a lot of harvested barrels come from ohio. It's, it's. We're very fortunate that this right here. But then you know we can go in and we can hand select and say we need it to be this, we need these seasonal air dries, you know all this type of stuff. But yeah, it's, it's crazy, you know that's. They've taught us a lot. So we're very like I said we're very lucky they're here and the guys there. They teach our guys so we coop for, for leak detection, all that stuff. They take our staff down there and they show us how to fix barrels and stuff. So it's just, it's a real partner. And and that is the side that when I started it was like, okay, it was an afterthought. It's just, it's a real partner. And that is the side that when I started it was like, ok, it was an afterthought, it's just a barrel. It's not the case.
Speaker 2:So yeah, but that's the greatest part about the whiskey industry, in my opinion, is that the, the, the partnerships and the people that are behind helping you. You know it's not. You're not partnering with a barrel. You're partnering with people who make barrels that care and they're.
Speaker 2:Everybody seems to be so well they're. We don't make it, still don't make enough whiskey. We're getting close for the, but still that everybody seems to be very open. I mean sharing of the employees to some extent or whatever, but overall, you know, it's like how many beams came out of Jim Beam and had to go be master distillers everywhere because Jim Beam could only have one. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:It's the same thing, it's like it's such a unique industry it is. That's what I find it's just like. Now you're doing it at a bigger level and I guarantee you, when you're dealing at a real big corporate level, a lot of business of the. But when you were dealing at the smaller level, the craft level, it had to be a little bit more, um less, industrial right yeah, it can be.
Speaker 3:It can stay that way if you choose it to go that way. It is more expensive to stay that way, especially when you build larger facilities. It can becomes ridiculously more efficient and more automated and things like that. But you can still have the hand touches. As you saw today, we have a guy that sits outside of the still house every hour. He's there running samples all day long to make sure that what comes off the beer well through the still can be as good as it should be. And that's just part of our thing. That's the hand touch that we do. So there are ways to take those industrial processes and add more of the craft feel to them. You just have to put that in as just your SOP.
Speaker 2:But you also have to do what you've done to know what the craft feel is. Oh yeah, I mean honestly, when people were talking about automation how it's changing everything, because it used to be they had to do all the pressures by hand and someone would forget, and then it would burn or whatever, and then it would be different and a lot of stuff was hard to take.
Speaker 1:But that allows consistency.
Speaker 2:But I've always felt that now that you give an artist and that's what I believe whiskey makers are the controls, they're going to take that control. It's like giving Andy Warhol a computer. He didn't make the standard computer art, he did all this creative stuff that nobody else was doing at the time. Same thing when you have that control that allows you to get levels further down the line. That was almost impossible to get when you were using the hand. The hand type yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3:I mean it makes. It makes things faster, more repeatable, um, and things like that. It doesn't mean you still don't have those old technologies that may have, instead of a, a thermal well, that's like a visual thermal. Well, you have a digital thermal well, that's telling a computer, hey, this isn't a bad spot, or hey, I'm in a good spot, so you still have all of that. But you can still have those old principles, um, applied. It's just your standards and how you want to distill I mean now digitally.
Speaker 2:You have, when you do a cook, they hit all the numbers. It's not measuring and whatever, and you don't. And you know those numbers are being hit because you can program them in and be consistent that way, whereas in the old days you know they had, they were taking temperatures, they hit the numbers. And when you were home sleeping somebody might not be hitting those numbers. You know, you just don't know. You hope so, but it's like the control that you have now is phenomenal to making, in my opinion, great whiskey within in places like yours and the other, when I see that they do produce some really, really good stuff yep yeah, automation is is critical for repeatability and you know it's.
Speaker 3:It doesn't allow too much variability and, and I would suspect back in the days 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago, when you didn't have a lot of that stuff, you had more variability. It also the fun part about that is you take the variability off a distillate, put it in barrels. With variability, you have wide swings in what comes out of the warehouses, so way more stuff to play with.
Speaker 2:So many strict rules, but yet billions of variables. Yeah, it's a lot, I mean it's just like where did you get your yeast straight? You know, you hear all the old stories. They predicted that yeast like it was everything to them because that's what they felt was their flavor profile and everything. And it's still to this day, how you do it consistently and you know you're relying on an actual living thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, good old Forrester, what do you smell immediately? Banana, like that. You know that's their yeast, so it's just that, that's what you've got. You know ours on our whiskeys. You get apricot from our whiskey. That's what you get and I can tell right away. And normally I can tell even if a larger brand is making something else, like a lot of people are trying to get into single malt, like a lot of the big guys you can tell the yeast they're using. You can smell it right off the, right off the product. So yeah, it's um, yeah with with the new facility and with our other facility, you know there's their controls in place that just make sure that the product long term is is what it needs to be all right.
Speaker 2:So we're talking about the product and we're starting to get into some longer term products we are.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, yeah, so we're getting up close to the, the six range. What we are, you know our base. We want to get to and and again we we've had to grow into that over time. Um, uh, we we've not been blending, uh, other material into ours, so it's as straight as it can be.
Speaker 3:So as, as our stock has grown and as the age has has increased, we're able to get up to levels that we're very happy about and and much like we like how Mictors does their, their, their aging profiles. They have a Mictors 10 and so on and so forth. And knob does that too. They do a very good job of highlighting nine, 11, 13, 14. Right, I like that pathway. Some guys will just change the brand name. They'll be like, okay, it'll be this brand at six, it'll be this at eight, it'll be this at 10, it'll be this at 15. That's, that's great, because it creates more skus on brands, and I understand that our path has always been to keep the middle west as the parent and then, as they grow up, we'll slap a big 10 on the front, we'll slap a 14 on the front. We're just not there yet, so, but it is growing pretty good, so why don't I hand these out to you? This is the cash strength.
Speaker 3:Um, I'll give you the rye first, so we'll put this. Here we go. The pumper nickel rye. Yep, that's right, the pumper nickel rye. We'll do that one. I'll grab that one. We'll put that on the. Let's just do it this way.
Speaker 3:So I've always um yeah, so this is 125.3 proof too, so I did give you some water droppers. If you want to open it up, I usually don't why. Sometimes you like to eat what you like.
Speaker 2:The high proof yeah, when you drink it's my liver might not want it as much, but yeah, when you drink as much and taste I mean.
Speaker 2:I don't know I still have a really good palate for lower proof stuff, yeah. But when people talk about the main difference is the body of a higher proof, you're just going to get full mouthful feel. And I sometimes feel that if it gets too much and it doesn't matter what the high proof, but if you get too much sometimes you get too much pepper in there or whatever, and then all of a sudden it defeats the purpose. So that's when you could use a little bit of, but for the most part most of the high proof that I drink.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and we don't do barrel strength per se, we do cast strength, so there's some regulations around barrel proofing. You can actually add some water in it Much better than two drops. Yeah, yeah, it opens up quite a bit.
Speaker 2:That's damn.
Speaker 1:You still get the nice.
Speaker 3:So your dark pumpernickel rye.
Speaker 1:You need to get more of the flavor.
Speaker 2:It takes rye to a. In my opinion, it's not a classic rye to me One. In my opinion it's not a classic rye to me One. It reminds me more of what you were saying of the mictors, because there's lots of the caramels and there's the rye spice there. It's there, but I'm getting no deal. I get none of that.
Speaker 3:There's a little bit of floral. There's a lot of caramel.
Speaker 2:A caramel and maybe a little bit mint yeah, a little mint yep like a menthol yeah but but I'm finished, but this it's like this this goes into and and it was, but that that I haven't had that, and this really goes into a rye that I like, which is about two percent of all rise.
Speaker 3:I taste, yeah, yeah it's a rye baking spice, so it's the dark rye and it's got it's 80 percent of that rye, it's 10 percent of our. Wow, non-gmo, open pollinated. Uh, three char, three char, three and a toast there's a toast there's a toast. There's I just picked yep, there's a toast and a char three, and then we've got, we've got.
Speaker 3:The toast is really coming out on this. Yeah, it started to open up quite a bit. Yeah, as it ages out, it's really coming forward. So I will tell you that all of these moving forward are all in a toasted barrel. So, these are the things that we've learned over time, that we like.
Speaker 2:Well, don't you agree? The toasted barrel addition.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I get the baking spice, it'll come out. So yeah, that's the pumpernickel. It's doing really well.
Speaker 2:I'm not lying Compared to the other pumpernickel which I enjoy. But, like I said, most of the time when I go downstairs I have so many bourbons that rye does not usually enter into what I'm picking, but, seriously, this would be one of two that I would consider drinking that's delicious be one of two that I would consider drinking that is that's delicious. That's actually for for me, my palate, everybody that's right there where I'm like you got you gotta pull this one off the shelf.
Speaker 3:This one is good now this one will probably surprise you a little. Uh, most people are not doing wheat whiskeys, but one of the first things that we started um back in 08, 09 was we started working on wheat profile, and Ohio does wheat very well. All of our grains are in the Ohio River Valley. That's one of our things.
Speaker 2:Is it a?
Speaker 3:summer wheat winter wheat. This is a soft red winter wheat so we make a lot. We didn't for a while. The wheat production is back up quite a bit in Ohio so we have access to some pretty good wheat and also some pretty good areas where it grows. The northern part of Ohio it's got a lot of clay-packed soil.
Speaker 2:The southern part is sandy, so depending upon where we get it it, um, it has a different flavor off the still, but you won't get banana through the fermentation so so I've had your wheat in the, in your, your top of the line I have, and I love, I love wheat whiskey, there's no doubt about it, and I'm expecting the toast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, nose wise yeah, then we'll flip over to the bourbon I mean so do you have plans for the 15 year stuff? At one point like you know what I mean, where I I think, like when you're talking about a wheat bourbon, 10 to 15 years is the sweet spot, especially when you're talking like a patty 15 to 17 for us, 15 to 17.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's the target, that's what you think that is, yeah. Yeah, I mean we'll eventually get there.
Speaker 2:Because I've had just one time at B20, and it's too much for me, too much oak.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean Now much oak. Yeah, I, I mean now the 15 is my in the 12 or it's like 15 is my favorite, that's my favorite. And then booker's 17 is one of my favorites. I think that range is really good. I think rye can peak around 8 to 10, um, but uh, rye particularly, but um, but bourbon can get up there. Uh, it can do well.
Speaker 3:See, that's opening next time that's nice, so that's, that's a sipper for us. That's the wheat whiskey and a lot of people are making it, so we're trying to make as much as we can as a category. It's just a nascent category right now in the whiskey market, but there's opportunity. But obviously cinnamon starting to pick up steam in the United States, so so we'll see what happens with it, but this one is going to be fun long term.
Speaker 1:This also lends that's only going to get better.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this one also lends itself well, so what does that fall?
Speaker 2:into a single malt category. No, it's just wheat with its own category, which is very the only I mean Journeyman, I know.
Speaker 3:Does a really nice wheat product? You got, oh geez. Does a really nice weed product? You got, oh geez.
Speaker 2:It was MGP Bernheim, mgp had some of that old elk. They did, Bought it all up and put that out and that was a nice, but I know that they bought it all.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so this is yeah it just keeps going. It's very different than the rye. Look what it does look at.
Speaker 2:That is probably the best oils legs I've ever seen. Look at top to bottom, straight up and thick. Look at that very oily. So is that one thing you have to deal with when you're the oil, the actual consistent like, or is it easy to distill?
Speaker 3:Well, we do. Our distillates have a ton of oil. When they come out, they're very, very viscous.
Speaker 2:You can see going down the glass.
Speaker 3:I'm not going to ask you that question?
Speaker 2:I won't, obviously, that's something that you've learned over the years and you're not sharing that. But I will say that what is the distillate taste like off your wheat whiskey, off your still?
Speaker 3:you know you had the apricot, it's so sweet really it is vanilla, it's just pure vanilla for pure vanilla, so you feel like sometimes you're making room it's not that sweet, it's a vanilla, it's not a sugar, it's more of a vanilla sweetness. Okay, yeah, it's, it's. It's crazy and this is. And this is a three toast as well, so char level three in toast.
Speaker 1:It definitely doesn't have too much chocolate.
Speaker 2:No, it's not a lot of it. And this is how many here? There's almost six, almost six.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, if I sit to the edge of the glass, yeah, that's.
Speaker 2:There's tons of caramel tons now yeah and I love about your cast strength is um, you're getting on this one. You get the big kentucky cast strength oak aspect. There's always that I pick up, like from rare readered or Booker's. There's a certain flavor underneath, you know Booker's might pick up pecan, not peanuts, and then you know you got the Jim Beam thing. But this underneath is the underneath. There is there of that cast strength, you know you taste that right.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, that's phenomenal. I love that we're doing this in Ohio. Yeah, it's never doing this in Ohio. Yeah, it's never been done in Ohio.
Speaker 3:There's well prior to Prohibition. There was a lot done in Ohio.
Speaker 2:Right Lots. There was a lot done in the whole United States. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, it's almost like some dark fruit, but not like cherry, more like.
Speaker 2:Okay, so one of the things why I like wheat is because the grain still will stay forward. You pick up the vanillas, you pick up that thing, but you still can taste the toasted.
Speaker 1:It's almost like a toasted wheat yeah.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. Whereas when you get into bourbons, a lot of times the wheat flavor can get lost, especially as you get the age on it.
Speaker 3:The wheat flavor can get lost, especially as you get the age on it. Now this is the. The Mike Lone bourbon is a combination of the two plus a bigger corn bill. So this is what you just had off the still today. So very, very, very, very, very soft.
Speaker 2:Uh, about six years old, so do you, and oily as far as your mash bills are, are you open or are you closed about six years old? So do you In some cases. As far as your mash bills. Are you open or are you closed? Open, Okay.
Speaker 3:So this is 63, 19, 13, 5. 63 corn, 19 wheat, 13. I think, if I'm doing the math correct, 13 rye and 5 barley. So this is a four grain. I hope I'm not going like 102.
Speaker 2:And I love 4 grains.
Speaker 1:I think I've.
Speaker 3:This one is I cannot. You know, we're very happy with what it's doing now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, very much so. Yeah, but it's unbelievably soft and at 122.2 proof, you can just unfortunately, or fortunately, you can just take it right down. So you've got to be careful.
Speaker 2:You've evolved this to second level. This is another level, that's lovely. And this is still spicy.
Speaker 3:I don't feel it anywhere.
Speaker 2:It excites me so much that you're in control of this distillery here plus still doing what you're doing over there, but this is what you've done over there. Obviously, this is from over there. Yeah, yes.
Speaker 1:I don't say this for mine. There are other things. When you drink it, you'll say oh yes.
Speaker 3:Well, it's obvious, we get comparisons of a lot of larger group brands with this. Yeah, we hear it.
Speaker 2:I'm talking about this one. You should be getting comparisons because and so I've dealt with a lot of pot distillers and smaller craft distilleries and they don't have a unique flavor. Like when I was dealing with Alan, a lot of his stuff has an indiana. I call it an indiana funk or an indiana aspect and, realistically, if you're this big french lick, why would you want to compete against the kentucky distilleries? They do it really well, they, they, it's very much this thing for very much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right, right, so it makes sense, okay, but but what you're doing here and what you've done here, you're right there with them all and, honestly, the viscosity on there we're not talking about your high-end stuff, you know?
Speaker 2:no, that's your go this is your cash strength it's a base, your base thing and you're, you could almost be doing this with it's, like it's right up there actually, you know, with those small batches that they put out, which is not I understand and I'm glad we got the opportunity to taste them and white dog you can see the similarity?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you can see. Yeah, it's just, it comes off the still and it doesn't have a lot of the heavy fusels. It had a lot of heavy fusels, but yet it's still oily. It's still oily.
Speaker 2:Well, it's obvious. Like I said, I'm here because it's a huge body.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's tiny.
Speaker 3:There's a lot going on. There's a lot going on everywhere, yeah sides of your cheeks sides of the tongue. Front of the tongue, back of the tongue yeah, it gives me chills whenever I try it, like it's just to see where it's going, because I know, because I know, I know what our long term is. Um, yeah, yeah, we're in a good spot. We just need to keep going.
Speaker 2:I've always been on board and I've always liked whiskey. Okay, but you just took me. It's almost like I'm rarely speechless, but this is fantastic.
Speaker 1:It could literally be my life in my top five.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:No, I, that's up against the big guys.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we like the big guys.
Speaker 2:Well here they always ask you Go to the store and get some. They always ask you if you could only take one, you're going to get stuck on an island, but you could choose what you want to bring. I'm bringing this.
Speaker 1:And you could probably carry that so.
Speaker 2:So you could probably put a flare, but a lot of the stuff that you talk about is always the the, the lesser, the, the stuff that's not made where it would be even hard supply a lifetime supply to somebody, whatever on it. But you know we're talking but in this case. I could get on an island and you could send it to me all along and have no problem, because you're making it and so what I like you should be opening this up so that you can share this much with the rest of the world, because this is something different and special.
Speaker 2:And then when you get into the 10 and 15 15 and you're putting that out, it's just going to be crazy yeah.
Speaker 1:big bodied bourbon, long finish, lots of flavor.
Speaker 3:What's that? To what he's doing? To what? Who you are? No, I'm just the annoying dad.
Speaker 1:He's nine yeah he's nine, nine girls, don't.
Speaker 2:No, they don't, but damn.
Speaker 3:They're consumed in their own little world at nine, mario or whatever he's on right now. Exactly yeah, I think they don't see outside they're still for a couple more years, the biggest thing for us is always how do we develop complexities, that it goes everywhere, that that pumpernickel was very challenging like this is.
Speaker 3:This is a calling to ohio, this is very ohio, because this is what Ohio does very well, believe it or not. We make a lot of the corn that goes down the road to a lot of the guys down in Kentucky and Tennessee, which has been fortunate for us because we have had access to a lot of that raw material which they have perfected for years in what they're buying. And then we take that and then we work with it. So we're very lucky to be where we are. But you know, it's um, there's a lot of people that do a lot of work on this in here, like our brewers, like our distillers, our plant managers now.
Speaker 2:Now you have a like a serious lab right, I mean at the, the lab can be yeah that's big you're pulling, and you're pulling samples and everybody's doing, but I want to stress this is a. Although it's a four grain, it's considered a wheat burr.
Speaker 1:Four grain weeded.
Speaker 2:Right which is rare, but a very nice balance of all four grains. But I will also stress you said soft winter red.
Speaker 3:Soft red winter, Red winter which is I believe what Maker's Mark uses correct. I don't know. I think they use it.
Speaker 2:Maybe I'm not sure it is it is yeah, it's a soft red winter Okay.
Speaker 3:And so I think, you just boil it and then set it, no, but honestly.
Speaker 2:But then that's grown here in Ohio. It is yes, and that's going to Terrible, going to turn off, there you go. Yes, I mean honestly, you know scotch gets into so much of that there.
Speaker 1:It's grown on the ocean, or it's grown you know all the barley.
Speaker 2:They came because they grow barley everywhere and it's like it's it matters and this is a much.
Speaker 2:There's much more body, oh yes, and this has its own, yes, deliciousness, and I'm going to tell you there's I've never, I've never seen something. Look that that in your gland the legs. So I would have to all three of them the body if I was barrel banging this. Yeah, you can give it a the body, you can give up to a four, but then you can give it an extra one and it gets the extra one, and not often I mean it fills your mouth and everything, but it just does such great viscosity in your glass and, like you said, the oily aspect of it.
Speaker 2:It's not like people when you're drinking it, it just makes a great mouthfeel. You don't close your mouth like it's creamy.
Speaker 3:So you know I appreciate that. Yeah, it's um, we're we're happy with the path so far. We're excited for it's going. Anything else you want to add? As far as Good seeing you guys, I mean, I know we've been trying to catch up. I'm just sorry we've been running like crazy.
Speaker 2:So now at your other place, you have all your swag and everything there and people can stop by. Now we're not here. You're distilling, not yet open.
Speaker 3:Yeah here's processing, distillate, here is, yeah, here's processing, distillate, here's packaging, and then offices, and then long-term we'll have developed the rest of the site, the rest of the acres here, into more hospitality. So that's coming. That just is going to take a little bit more time in development.
Speaker 2:It does you have this? If you've walked around, we've walked around and put that out and if you've seen some of the videos, the space is there. It's big they have all the space it's like and you know their location is spectacular. You just get off 70 yeah, i-70's right there, yeah yeah, yeah it's kind of nice.
Speaker 3:We're going to put a big Midwest sign on the road with flashes at night.
Speaker 2:I don't know why we'll get in trouble. Waze took me off an exit before. I'm like wait, does it just?
Speaker 3:get off. No, it does. It does something strange. It circles you back around. You shouldn't do it. You just take a sexy. We literally have a light off the I-70.
Speaker 2:You go straight in. I'm like wait, I don't get up. Okay, Took me through the tour of the area.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 3:That was a nice way to put it right. It was. It was very nice. Thank you for that, Maple syrup with breakfast right. Oh yeah, there's lots of good stuff too. Yeah, we try to please. I'll tell you what Maple syrup that bourbon barrel aged. It's so good. It sits in the cask for over nine months to a year. The casks just are bleeding the maple it just goes right through the staves. But yeah, it's very nice. We've got to make another batch of it though. But man, it makes a hell of a mess. I'm sure it does.
Speaker 3:Now you're saying that A hell of a mess.
Speaker 1:All right, we must have bought a couple bottles, because we're still to end the podcast on the audio.
Speaker 2:Thanks everybody for joining us. Remember good bourbon equals good times and good friends. We're not ending it on Facebook or YouTube yet, so we'll do that right after. But remember, live your life Uncut and unfiltered but, drink responsibly and don't drink and drive.
Speaker 3:All right, buddy.
Speaker 2:Thanks for listening and coming in.
