25 Years at Crook's Corner Restaurant - A Conversation with Chef Bill Smith

On the show this week, I have chef Bill Smith. Bill was the chef at Crook’s Corner in Chapel Hill, North Carolina for 25 years, before retiring in January 2019. I wanted to talk to Bill about his time working at Crook’s Corner, and what he plans to do now that he’s retired. Bill’s always been an activist. Many of his employees at the restaurant were from Mexico, and have become like family to Bill. He’s been talking about immigration, and trying to find ways to support those former employees. Mexico has become one of his favorite places to travel to. 

We also talk about food. From his Atlantic Beach Pie, to the famous Shrimp & Grits that Crook’s Corner helped put on the map. Bill has authored two cookbooks, been nominated for a number of James Beard awards (and won one), and was the owner of the Cat’s Cradle music venue.

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Bill Smith

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Bill’s Instagram https://www.instagram.com/chulegre/

The Crook’s Corner Website https://crookscorner.com/

Read more about Bill here https://www.forbes.com/sites/lesliekelly/2020/08/06/chef-bill-smiths-grassroots-efforts-to-help-his-kitchen-family-are-inspiring/#6b121c533d55

Bill’s cookbook Seafood in the South https://amzn.to/349G0Dv

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Transcript

Chris Spear: 0:00

Welcome, everyone. This is Chris Spear. Today, on the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast, I have chef Bill Smith. Bill was the chef at Crook's Corner in Chapel Hill, North Carolina for 25 years before retiring in 2019. He's the author of two cookbooks, and was the owner of Cat's Cradle music venue. Welcome to the show, Bill.

Bill Smith: 0:18

Hey, there.

Chris Spear: 0:20

How are you doing today?

Bill Smith: 0:21

I'm cool.

Chris Spear: 0:23

Great. So you've had a long history in the food business. I mean, 25 years just at one restaurant. That's almost unheard of these days... for someone to stay somewhere so long.

Bill Smith: 0:32

It suited me. Yeah. And, you know, once I sort of established myself, I got to have my own way. So.

Chris Spear: 0:44

Let's get into your back story. What's your background with food? Did you come from a family that loved food and eating? Were you? Did you have this history of being by your grandmother's side that so many chefs talk about? What was that like?

Unknown: 0:59

Some yes, some no. I grew up in eastern North Carolina. At a time when there was usually a woman in the house all the time, the housewife or the grandmother or something. We don't see that so much now. Because women now work. They have to, unfortunately. But at the time, there was something called a housewife. And so my grandmother's actually, were in charge of two large households. And they did the cooking. And it was always good. I mean, I just, I didn't expect I always expected for you to be good. And I didn't cook with a Maya, great grandmother on my mother's side was the best cook, but she didn't want anybody bothering her. So occasionally I would, I would be able to hang out with her. And But anyway, that was it was I didn't realize at the time, it was setting me up for my career. Because since I grew up expecting food to always be good. And that was something I felt like I also needed to do when I began cooking, I backed into to being in the restaurant business, because I as you said, I had, I was part of a music club here in Chapel Hill, and we never could make any money. We were such poor business people that that we were, we had to go find other jobs. And I ended up at a restaurant. And so it over the over time. As I grew tired of running a club, I was also realizing how there is sort of the aesthetic of, of the restaurant kitchen suited me. So it was a it was a bit of good luck, I think.

Chris Spear: 2:23

But you didn't grow up with this burning desire to be a chef, like, I didn't

Bill Smith: 2:27

even cross my mind until I was one really I mean, I just did my first chef job. It was I was the elevated because of attrition. It wasn't because I was, you know, scrambling for the position. It was like,

Chris Spear: 2:39

so was it that first job? When you had the cat's cradle that kind of got you into the industry? Was that your first foray into the food business? Yeah, I'd

Bill Smith: 2:48

waited tables like in college, but yeah, essentially, yes. And where was that job? It was a little place downtown called the Carolina coffee shop. I mean, it's so you know, it was a college breakfast and you know, beer and coffee and bags, you know.

Chris Spear: 3:05

So then you ended up connecting with Bill Neal who went on to open crooks corner is that right? You started working for him?

Bill Smith: 3:12

When I started with him, he was at a residence. I never worked with him at crooks corner.

Chris Spear: 3:16

So you cooked it crooks corner for 25 years.

Bill Smith: 3:19

Yeah. But he had he had been dead about five years before I went over there.

Chris Spear: 3:23

So what was the evolution of food? Like there when you started? Did you kind of just inherit all the menus that were there and just kept going with the menus that existed?

Bill Smith: 3:33

sorta Yeah, I, I had been interested in it had gotten so it had been sold. And so I was sort of looking for a job. And gene, who was Bill's partner, and Chris Carter, just called me up said, come down here and work. And it was so much busier than what my other job had been that I didn't have time to do much else except to keep up I've had to learn. It was so how long have been there about probably 10 years old by then I guess. So that we've had a regular clientele who had favorites and expectations and things like that, that I was sort of obliged, you know, to keep my background was good. In recent North Carolina, and it was the southern restaurant. So I had a repertoire in waiting, but I've moved in very slowly. I said Firstly, just because I could not keep up, you know, it was like, it was so much harder than I am. Then my other job had been just because the volume. So as I sort of got my footing, I was then at liberty to introduce things as it you know, as it made sense as I had time is a lot of it was really seasonal, and you know, and so if the season and the time worked out, in a good way that I could introduce things and then slowly over time, the things that I began to introduce became the majority. And they they became the favorites and the things that the clientele looked for. And then, but there were some things I never thought what if I never changed a lot of things that I inherited and I was grateful for most of those recipes. So

Chris Spear: 5:06

I've heard a lot about shrimp and grits. That's one of the things that you guys became known for. Bill did that he's

Bill Smith: 5:12

something he grew up with in South Carolina, it was just a breakfast was a fisherman's breakfast is where he described it. And he thought, why not put this little bit here, see how it goes. And you see, now it's inescapable. But that was something I didn't change, I would never dream of changing that. That would be silly. I'm always grateful actually, that I had. That was one thing I did not have to replace. What I've done is I've had to replace all that all those with something else every night. So that was cool.

Chris Spear: 5:35

I've read a lot about the iconic dishes that you've gone on to put on that menu that seemed to be on there forever. What is that is that Atlantic Atlantic Beach pie. I call

Bill Smith: 5:45

it stupid pie this point. But if something I grew up with in eastern North Carolina, it's a variation or there are many recipes for it. It's essentially it's a lemon pie, but the thing that makes it distinct is that Um, excuse me, the the crisis may result in crackers. And that's just, it was something that all the seafood restaurants along the coast had on their menus, but there was just a tradition there that wasn't well known elsewhere. Some people use saltines Some people use Ritz crackers of the abuse capitals waiver, some of us always to crackers. And this starts little fights Of course, but Oh, anyway, I use I do did saltine crackers, really because the day I did a test when I did a test that was what I had. I wasn't like it wasn't like a a better place it all the crackers instead do this. It was not that. So and it was fine. It was really good. And I left it alone. But it actually it caused us dust up. But it's just something that I grew up with and that I hadn't thought about in a million years. The southern foodways Alliance was coming to Eastern North Carolina, they were using Newburgh, my hometown as their base. They wanted me to do one eastern North Carolina dinner one night that was not barbecue. And I was just thinking of things that I remember fondly growing up or that were typical of the of the region. And that was the value of that pie. Remember how good that was? Wonder, you know, I went to some church schoolbooks and poked around and found a couple of different recipes and came up with this version. And then it sort of took on a life of its own. And now it's you know, it's inescapable now. So

Chris Spear: 7:11

what was the makeup of the kitchen employees? Like when you started to where it is? Now, I know, you've talked about having a lot of employees from Latin America. But was that the case? When you started?

Bill Smith: 7:21

There were some mostly, I think it had been there. There were a lot of when I first got there, there were mostly students, or recently graduated students. Who a lot of them who worked just a couple of shifts, there was like a staff of there were a couple of full time people, most people just worked a shift or two or three. And the Latino people were the dishwashers. Right? So um, I had never known any people from Mexico before. I don't think I don't recall ever. So I, you know, I was trying to make friends with them too. And we got to be buddies. And, and my Spanish is well, I had studied Spanish A long time ago, but I hadn't used it in years and years. But anyway, sort of fun. Yep, a new language and, you know, and all the misunderstandings that that can cause they're always really funny and, and we just got to be buddies. And as these these students would, you know, would eventually go away because they would graduate nigga find jobs and go move somewhere else or whatever. And it turned out that these dishwasher guys had been watching the whole time. And then what there was an instance where I was short one night in Korea, Martina said, Well, I can do it. I've been watching for years. I'm sure I can go do it. And so he did. It was like, Oh my god, it's so. So that is it happened. As the synagogue's would go like this It wasn't something intentional, it just went worked out it was it was easiest way to deal with with a shortages as guys would go away then the dishwasher guy would like raise their hand say I can do that. And in fact, they could. And they were great. They just once once they knew what you wanted them to do then that was you never had to worry about it again, you're gonna have like Santa Roman, you know, swear and all this kind of stuff. And so in no time at all, it was like it was unintentional. of not all of my kitchen, but a portion of it were were Gosar Mexico. So and the rest is history sort of because now they're my very best friends ever. So

Chris Spear: 9:12

did that impact the type of food you were doing or flavors or anything? I mean, because a lot of times it doesn't there are a lot of you know really well known Michelin three star French restaurants where the whole kitchen crews from Mexico but you wouldn't see any of that kind of influencing the menu but you seem to let it impact the dishes a little bit.

Bill Smith: 9:29

Yeah, I didn't want I don't see why not. I mean, for one thing there they are, is a southern restaurant. They live in the south now. So they're and there's a lot of them and in North Carolina, half a million at one count. So um, and the food's good. There's nothing wrong with it. I didn't like put on my first impulse obviously was to resist a little bit of that just because I thought people were expecting God he's gonna turn into a Mexican restaurant. And I didn't feel like that. I didn't want to do that. But there were some things were really good. And I use a couple of examples when people ask me this the Mexican harmony they use for facilities Very much better than the southern harmony so much better. But it's just like, once you've tasted it, forget it, you know. So that was one I switched over to that that Latin style of harmony and people who have just just I don't know, it's just evolution, but the public has developed a taste for hotter and hotter and hotter and spicier and spicier foods. And so that was when I first went to work at crooks occasionally, people would complain that the collars had too much red pepper flakes, so that never happens now. And and you need, you know, people need several choices of hot sauces. And they know all the brands that you can get in the Mexican store. I was going to say, you know, things like that, and why would you not do that? I mean, you know, this is a good one. It was like a, it was a southern restaurant, but it was it was I wanted to my kitchen represent the time and place in which we lived. And that's, that was thought that was you know, it was seasonal, but it also I wanted it to be to be modern, as well as old uncomfortable. So

Chris Spear: 10:55

what was your kitchen environment? Like? It seemed like you really enjoyed cooking and having a good time. And it wasn't this kind of Yes, Chef, no chef, very strict formal environment. You know, is there a reason? Or is that just your personality and how you wanted to run the kitchen?

Bill Smith: 11:09

That is me? I mean, yeah, and it works, you know? Uh, I think probably I didn't at least at the beginning, I didn't feel comfortable being a boss. I don't like to be bossed around, like be told what to do. And I guess I don't like doing it to anybody else either. Because my people were reliable and confident that it wasn't necessary for me to be like, just perpetually scolding everyone. I had to instruct people. I had to show them what was what and I had to correct errors. But though. Yeah, I'm very laissez faire. I don't I don't like all that crap. I don't see the point. I mean, and there's a lot of it. I've been saying for years that have, once you've had your tantrum be softer, then go solve the problem that you have the chance reviver, so just skip that part. You know, it's like, it's a waste of time, you know.

Chris Spear: 11:55

And I guess some of that's inherited, you know, we talk a lot to younger cooks. And it's like, I think sometimes you see that, and then you learn that and then you keep doing it. It's like the cycle. And I guess, you know, you didn't have this history of working for 1015 different shifts in your career before you went there. So, you know, I got some of it's just going in with the style you're comfortable with and not inheriting that kind of behavior.

Bill Smith: 12:16

Yeah, no, is that and I saw that behavior from time to time and other places, and I did not approve of it. So it really rubbed me the wrong way in in a lot of it. You know, it was sort of Elaine's ambition. It didn't like, say doesn't serve. It doesn't advance your menu, but I can see, you know, it's just, I don't know, it's just, yeah, it just rubbed me the wrong way. I try. I did, I went out of my way to not be that way, actually, you know, and sometimes I had to give myself a talk, you know, I gotta be in a bad mood, or you know, or tired or something. But then, you know, these people are, you need to respect the people who work for you. You know, and if you do that in the middle workout, you know, 99% of the time, I guess there's always the possibility of something but but basically, no, that's not just not how I see things.

Chris Spear: 13:02

So you retired in 2019,

Bill Smith: 13:05

the very beginning of it, I worked until the the the first week in January of that year, because we had a thing called the crooks voter Book Prize. And that was given out in January. So I stuck around till the till the party for that. And then I, I was I was also turning 70. And I thought, you know, you've been there 25 years, you're turning 70 you need to get out of town because somebody's gonna do something if you don't. So, the next day I was on a plane from Mexico. So

Chris Spear: 13:29

that sounds like a good way to kick off retirement. It was great.

Bill Smith: 13:33

It's my go to for many for many things. But

Chris Spear: 13:36

so what do you do when you go down to Mexico?

Bill Smith: 13:38

Well, there's a bunch of guys that worked for me in the very beginning that had gone back home over the years. And also the families of people who work for me still, who's scattered all over the country. So um, there's one time I got to the most telcos Elia instead of Guanajuato, which is where the bulk of the Latino people in this area came from it first. So that's where I have the most friends. So I go there, at some point, I love Mexico City. It's a fabulous city. I mean, it's the biggest city in the world. It's got everything. And I just couldn't I just can't get enough of it. You know, so I have a, there's a neighborhood I like in Mexico City and I have a hotel, I always stay up there and I I go there both although in and out of the country, so I gave myself a few days there at the beginning and a few days there when I'm coming back home. And I do whatever out there. I love tattoo Wakanda the ruins out of the you know, out of the country and all the museums, all of the music and all of the food. I'll just walking around, you know, I just like the vibe, just really, I should have been born there. I you know, it's like, and then I hop on a bus and I go to go see my friends. And that first year I went all over because I had friends in the south and in the north, so I hopped on a bus and went down to a haka. Have a good friend who owns a hotel in Walker city. I stayed there for a while. I got back on the bus, went back to Mexico City then went up to the north to, to celaya where I have my most most of my friends and I don't know, I really do. I mean, we just drink beer. You know, shoot the shit. We just like said they're my best friends I don't you don't have to do anything you know? I love their families are fun and they they're gonna scoop me up years ago and i don't know i was whole babies I don't know certain you know

Chris Spear: 15:17

sounds like a good time just hang out and eat some really good food I have some news Exactly.

Bill Smith: 15:21

I've never been happier is when I'm sitting there doing the butcher shopping and saliva with my friend Luis, you know?

Chris Spear: 15:28

Yeah, I really miss travel right now I wish I could go somewhere like that

Bill Smith: 15:31

would be here. Now Actually, I planned to spend up most of this year down there, I was going to go back in May. And I have a nephew getting married, and this month, and I was going to stay there until the wedding. And just Hi. And I just like to get on the bus and wander, you know, I do that a lot. It's expensive. And it makes us really cheap. You know? And it's you can you can eat well and travel well and drink well and all that stuff with

Chris Spear: 15:54

what else have you gotten into since you've been retired? And do you have any big plans? Are there things you really want to accomplish or just kind of taking it as it goes?

Bill Smith: 16:01

Well, I was sort of in the middle of another cookbook, when I retired and then I was so busy that year, I just never got around to finishing it. And now I'm trying to work on that again, although the tone of the world has changed. So I'm not sure how on it, how to focus it now it was gonna be like a retrospective in a way. But I'm thinking now maybe something modest and comfortable might be better. I don't know. And, and I've also been working on a sort of a little memoir thing, mainly about my friends in Mexico, and me and all the you know, our experiences I think there's a need for on demonizing these people, if I can put it like that. The crap that's been said about them in the last few years is really horrible and offensive and it really gets me going and so I'm that they've actually been my main my main concern, you know, ever since the election because they were attacked so so in such a way that it was just drove me crazy. And so I've been running interference to them a lot, you know, with with helping their kids out on it, whatever, raising money having their kids out. And of course, the Now there are a lot of work and most of them are not entitled any sort of relief. And so a lot of those guys are in big trouble. So I've been trying to help them out however I could. And the second really all of my attention and energy if we ever get through all this I intend to get back on the road though. And I and there are a couple of big trips that that I'm interested in. I love the music of West Africa and I'm always up for many years I have I've never been there I've had a few friends from from Senegal and Ghana and stuff. But anyway, I'm going to West Africa as soon as I can. That's my next thing. I'm going to go to Senegal and Cape Verde and maybe Ghana that's a pretty big trip but I tried to go that was the year I retired I tried to go and it turned out that there was a who knew a shortage of yellow fever vaccine and they've been an outbreak of yellow fever and car and I wouldn't be allowed into the country without a vaccination and I couldn't there wasn't any of the of the of the accepted vaccine but there was an experimental one but you had to sign a waiver saying if you killed you did you wouldn't be couldn't see them. It costs like$800 and then it said if you're over 60 it's not advised so there was three reasons not to go to West Africa that year. Now of course I wish I'd done it anyway because it's gonna be a lot it's really around to it so but that's what I want to do next. And then I also want to go I'm always going to Mexico I'll go there to heartbeat

Chris Spear: 18:32

so is Chris corner closed right now have they reopened or are they still closed?

Bill Smith: 18:37

They haven't they it's like everybody else it's like all my chef friends and you know of course I have many I'm going back and forth or places that were Um, so to set up for takeout anyway or they did a lot of takeout have managed to transition but a lot of places that hadn't done it and we'll always had some takeout but that wasn't what we did you could just get what we had to go basically if you wanted to. A lot of it really wasn't a good food for takeout Frankly, I mean people always coming and getting fried oysters and those are horrible when you get them you know, but anyway, so we had we'd had takeout but it wasn't wasn't the focus of what we did and a lot of stuff didn't travel well or you couldn't How do you put it in a container sort of thing and I'm like there's lots of reasons. So they had Didn't they didn't do anything because they I think they were initially they were thinking this would be very brief and they would just get in there and scrub the kitchen down and get going again. And now it stretched out how long is it nine months now and it's there but the the business was sold the year I retired. I don't know if I told you this the building had gone up for sale. And two guys, one of which had been a manager for years and another guy who had owned a bar down the street put together the money to buy the whole shebang because it was gonna close, you know, and the town was having a fit. No, you can't close. You've been here forever. There's somebody to do something and so that's They did. So they were only in, they'd only taken over just a year when everything when the shit hit the fan sort of and, um, but they had their other businesses, there was their first you know, obligations because Shannon Healy has a bar and restaurant in Durham, North Carolina, he was the guy that was the manager, Gary Cohen has the bar down the street and some other places around, I think maybe even Washington, he might not want it there. Anyway, so their first obligation was to their initial businesses, right. So I think they're going to try to start doing takeout now. But um, the states just just loosened up some of the regulations. Okay, we've done okay. During the virus. Our governor was was really good about and the director of our state health department, she was really good. She was smart and clear and unexcitable and all this kind of things. And so people listen to her advice and do what she said. And so we, we've been doing okay, and so they begin to relate to lift some restrictions on places being able to open and stuff like that. But it's that whole thing about if you're only half full, can you make? Can you do it? You know? Okay, and if you're really helpful, we'll take out make up the difference for the rest? I think not Honestly, I don't, some people are doing better than others. Like I said, every place I know is trying something different. It seems like so these guys were going to do they were talking about was in there not long ago, I stuck my head I sold there, I stuck my head in the door. And they were they're thinking about doing just brushes while the weather's warm, because there's a big patio and then some kind of takeout and just see how it goes from there. And, but not being able to hire hardly anybody back. And so which is really too bad. Um, and I don't know if there's the date, even right now.

Chris Spear: 21:41

And you've done some fundraising for some of the employees there. Is that right? Trying to help the guys were out of work?

Bill Smith: 21:47

Initially, it started out I thought after the election that I would actually have to take everybody to the airport and get get them out of here. That was my thought. So I put started a GoFundMe thing. And so my publicist, my book, agent, publicist, and she said that she said, Well, I think if I had to go to the airport, on short notice, without any, any advantage of advanced purchase or anything, it would cost about$10,000 to put everybody on a plane and go back home. Okay, so what we're gonna do, and so then, but then I realized everybody needed their papers in order their credentials, drive everybody to passport, so let's go. So we got all that done. And then, but the people didn't want to go home. You know, they were, they've been here for years and years, they had bought homes, their children were born here. And they decided to just keep their heads down. You know, and so I thought, okay, fine, we'll get we'll go with that. And so just whatever I mean, I've done, people have been extremely generous. I'd like to say at first people, especially people in the restaurant business, my colleagues around the country have been as generous as it's unbelievable. So I just got sort of got everything ready to go in case whatever happened. We've we've occasionally hired lawyers for people, we've gotten DACA renewals, I've gotten passwords for all the children I got. There were there was a couple other places around town where the the people who work there were had relationships with my people and stuff. So we got their children, passports, we got all that kind of stuff. So we just did whatever. And then. And then what happened was this really horrifying thing where people begin to take advantage of these folks, because they knew they were afraid to complain. So I've had fights with landlords, and I've had fights with insurance companies, I've had fights with Oh, seven, oh, that's a bit expensive. So the money is just who knows, you know, I'd say I just finally told her, I said, Listen, I don't know what I'm going to use the money for. I'll just let you know as I go. And so then when this happened, I got out of work. I just said, Okay, we're just gonna start paying rent. So it's been month by month, but I thought, am I gonna make it this month? And then all of a sudden, right, the endless little bursts of generosity, and we do. So far, so good, but it's driving me crazy and wearing me out, frankly, and the toll is taking all these children and stuff is unpardonable. unpardonable, because they see their their parents exhibiting all this stress and, and, in fact, their dreams have been disrupted, you know, and that's, and that's, that's a hard thing to watch, you know, and, you know, I just want it all to be over with.

Chris Spear: 24:12

Yeah, I know, there's not much of end in sight, you know, we're seeing it all over and I don't, I don't know, it seems like this thing's gonna keep stretching on and every day you see more places closing up and people out of work, and I don't know what we're going to be doing.

Bill Smith: 24:27

I don't either and, and when these people are concerned, there's so much racist crap that's been unleashed. And these people are the victims of it, because they're not white. That's even worse, you know. And so, you know, it's just, it's endless. It's driving me crazy.

Chris Spear: 24:39

Yeah. And I guess most of them aren't eligible for any kind of unemployment.

Bill Smith: 24:43

Most families have mixed documentation. You know, these people, some people who are who are legal and others who are not because they want us to be together and that's all there is to it. And, and and the law is such that he that you jeopardize the people who are eligible if somebody who's lost Eligible, you know, it takes to get some advantage from any of these things. So the people that are eligible often don't even look for it, because they're afraid of, you know, the consequences. So. So anyway, it's been up to us and so far, so good. We've done it. But it's like I said, I've had it.

Chris Spear: 25:15

And I know you've been an activist over the years for a number of different things. Is that something that came naturally to you? It just seems like you have these causes. And maybe activist isn't a term even like to identify with but, you know, it's very easy to just sit back and do nothing. But that doesn't seem to be how you've kind of lived your life. It does

Bill Smith: 25:31

seem to be and I do I wonder why I'm such a troublemaker. And I've been that way. Um, it runs in my family. And actually, I'm working on this piece now for the journal, Journal of Southern cultures. I had a my great grandmother's grandmother was an abolitionist. And depends on who tell who told you the story, but apparently in like 1858, or something, she led a procession to the streets of Philadelphia, writing a White Stallion had been drenched in blood to protest Bleeding Kansas. So I blame all this on her. I'm trying to do some research now. It's hard to find out and everybody that, that we're used to tell the story. They're all you know, long gone now. So it I don't know what it is. It's in me. And I don't My mother was like this, although she wasn't she was sort of a conservative. She wasn't as liberal as I am at all by any stretch of the imagination. But I do feel the obligation and I'm not sure why to set up for things that are objective things that I think are wrong, and it could be it's been all over the place. And I sound like some sort of battler what, but uh, I don't know, it's just my conscious insists that I do these things. So.

Chris Spear: 26:39

So what are your thoughts on the food industry in general? I mean, I know you've seen a lot, what are we going in the right direction? You know, I talk to people all the time, kind of about kitchen culture and what needs to change. And I think we're making some strides in the right direction. But there's a long ways to go. Any thoughts on that from from what you see?

Bill Smith: 26:59

Yeah, and I've seen it is for people with my colleagues who are much younger than I and I started noticing it a few years ago, there were they were a little more ethical in the way they ran their businesses and the way they chose to do things. And I mean, that in many ways, they would try to source locally because they kept money in their communities, they would try to use things that were healthy as opposed to not unless, you know, they're, I don't know, you. Sometimes you just have to have cheese wheels. But you know what I mean, they were they were they were trying to make good decisions in how and what they made. They treated their employees with respect. And I said nicely to my younger colleagues years ago, and there's more of that. Now, there's a real there's a whole bunch of people around this area of the triangle that are a restaurant owners and business owners and stuff like that, that make that part. In other words, I think what you have to do is you have to, and I think this is a good thing. The Celebrity has to go and just look after your people, you know, and if you do that, then you may change delivery. But there was a lot there when this business was driven entirely by that celebrity. You know what I mean? It's like, I think it might be started, it started out sort of, without people really realizing it at first and then and then it didn't begin to snowball and became irresistible. I was I was also guilty of it. Yeah. But that, um, that's not how to do things. That's not how to do things, you put your nose to the grindstone, you try to do a good job, and serve your community and make a decent living and treat everybody well. And there's a lot of that now, and I see it among my like, say my younger colleagues around me and I, if they can survive this, um, I would think we'll see more of it. But everybody's other economic stresses now that that sometimes you have to make choices that are not in the, you know, in the best interest of everybody. And I guess that was some lesson that needed to be learned, too. So that's, that's, that's what I'm hoping to see him a lot less people pressing around in in tokes and more chefs helping the guys take the trash out into the night. You know what I mean?

Chris Spear: 29:04

I was just talking to some people. I don't even really feel comfortable wearing a chef's coat anymore. I don't I don't know why, like, it just feels like it never fit me like that was never my thing, but I had to wear one.

Bill Smith: 29:13

I wore rock'n'roll t shirts. I was known for it. Usually greasy ones, you know, in a dirty apron. You know?

Chris Spear: 29:20

Do you have favorite rock and roll t shirts?

Bill Smith: 29:23

I do I have a huge collection actually I because I own the cat's cradle and still go there all the time. I can't go nail but I had over 300 band shirts which which the southern the southern folk like collection at UNC has taken into their to their art. I don't know what would be my favorite. There are many. I don't know there's so many bands I love we have a lot of bands that come from here, you know, so that that that people elsewhere may not have heard of

Chris Spear: 29:51

Yeah, I'm a big collector of those two. My favorite is Ben Folds five shirt.

Bill Smith: 29:55

He's the one on the border for me.

Chris Spear: 29:57

I have my original shirt from like 1995 Five and it's one of those shirts, I only break out every now and then because I want to kind of keep it intact. But that's probably my favorite rock shirts. I have quite a collection myself. Although I don't quite fit in them I've grown a little more. And in 20 years,

Bill Smith: 30:11

I've got a scruffy the cat t shirt. They were there was a band from Boston, they used to play here a lot. And it's just like a Kleenex. Now it's been you know, there's the same thing I almost never wear it. And so

Chris Spear: 30:22

knowing everything you do, that you've picked up in the food industry, would you get back into it? If you were 20 years old today? And you know, we didn't have COVID if the world were normal place, would you get the culinary industry?

Bill Smith: 30:34

Yeah, probably would, I guess? I don't know. I like sometimes. I really love not being in charge of anything right now. But if I were, yeah, five, even 20 years younger, I probably would do it, you know? More on my own terms, I guess. To start with, but uh, yeah, yeah, it really did suit me, in many ways. But you have to say you have to be really ready to just work your butt off. I mean, people think it's like giving a dinner party every night. But honestly, it's like working in a coma. You know, it's like, you know, it's really hard work. You know, and and I want people to I mean, there was about a about 10 years ago, half of my friends had a midlife crisis, right. And so they, they all decided they wanted to go the rest of his and I said, don't you are too old. You know what? You don't even know. Yeah.

Chris Spear: 31:25

Well, even the personal chef business, because that's what I'm doing now. And people think that that's easier. And it's not, it's different. It's easier in some respects. But it's like if you've never worked in food service, I'm seeing all these people who were like accountants and it 45 want to be a personal chef. It's like, well, wow, like, Do you realize what it's going to be like? It's not just like throwing a dinner party at your house? There's a lot that goes into it.

Bill Smith: 31:46

Sure. Well, yeah, there's lots of lots of it. Well, for one thing, what if you get somebody that's impossibly picky to work for that's for starts and then yeah, and then you have health concerns to consider and you have people all these allergy things people seem to have these days, I'll just tell us No, no, no, I yeah, I have several friends who do that to different problems. But

Chris Spear: 32:09

it's, it's definitely rewarding. I mean, I'm enjoying it more than working in a restaurant.

Bill Smith: 32:14

I've done a few things like that, but only for friends. Or occasionally for fundraising events that friends do for small dinner parties and stuff. And I usually take one of the guys that worked for me and you know, the same thing but but I also have friends who do the same people every week. They're like, hard, but these families come in three days a week because the the parents are busy, and they have, you know, their children and all this kind of stuff. So, so I've done I've done the little but you know, sometimes people's kitchens are not there little in there. I did I did this huge dinner party that was one huge was was 25 there was a 50th wedding anniversary for people I've known forever. It was really fun to do. But my god, it was like, it was like doing it out of the trunk of my car.

Chris Spear: 32:57

Yeah, I did one just this past weekend, where there was no formal dining room, it was an eat in kitchen at an island. So the island was my work table, and where they're going to be eating. So I had it while they were in the other room having cocktails and stuff. But when they came in to eat my butt was literally two feet from like the thing. So I'm working at the stove. And like, you know, I could bump with the with the guests there. And then and then the time of social distancing. You know, I really wanted a little more room. Most of my guests have been able to eat outside or in another room. But now I'm in this tiny kitchen with like, eight ladies who are a foot from me, and it was closer than I want it to be. But I had no idea going into it. What are some of your favorite commentary resources? Like if someone wanted to, you know, just even recreationally cooking? What are some of your favorite cookbooks, websites, magazines, things just for cooking in general?

Bill Smith: 33:48

Funny, you should mention that one of the things I've been doing while I've sort of been quarantined is I've been going try to organize my mess because I've lived in this house since 1984. And although I was never here because I was always at work. It's full of crap. And one of the things I have is 10,000 cookbooks and so I've been organizing mine. And so I've organized them. I'm looking at them over here now. I've organized them in a sort of a logical way to me. The first my first club of them is, so the favorite classics that I had when I started as a resident was when we started. We were all originals. Everybody was even bill and Morton work. They knew that the food of France but they had never trained it. And so we were we worked our way through Julia Child, you know, so, Julia Child simka. Marcela, Hassan, that 15th anniversary joy of cooking. Paula Wolfert, another one. People like that. So I got a clump of those. And then I have everybody I know who's written a cookbook, you know, and so I have all my friends favorites. Next, I couldn't really even pick one out I don't know if there's like something about almost all them, maybe because I'm finding the people who wrote them or whatever but, and I learned from my Latino friends, my friend Rosie, she's married to one of the guys that worked for me forever. And she showed me how to make tamales and stuff like that. So we did some classes together. And that was fun. A lot of times these days, like says, just me, I you know, so I, um, it's interesting in the cooking for one person is really sort of tedious to me at this point. So I, what I do is I go, we have a pretty good farmers market, you know, several times a week. So I go there, I just see what's there. And then that that sort of informs what I'm going to have next. There's a little butcher shop down the street, same thing as the fish market down the street, same thing. So I don't really plan what I'm going to cook and stuff like that. I just don't see what's around. You know, I guess it's by both my seasonal upbringing and the way we ran crooks as well. One thing I've been doing, I've been making. I don't know why I started doing this even it's sort of so I've been making these baking videos on Facebook. And I don't know why I started doing it. But I got have a constituency now and I and so what I do is I make something usually lately, it's been cakes, it's not always been cakes, but and usually it's from somebody's cookbook, that's a friend of mine, or that I have some association with. And then because I'm doing on my phone, and on Facebook, it's there, like a little five minute chunks, maybe four, you know, and so I don't really edit very well. And then at the end of the each thing, I get a little rant about politics. So anyway, I had just just thought, Oh, this is really stupid. Why are you doing this? And so I sort of announced I was gonna do anyone that was done. And I had this huge outcry. Don't you dare stop you crazy, you know. So I'm still doing that. I'm gonna do one today, actually. So that's been that's been sort of a strange I don't know, I don't know why I started out what the world has asked me to do the first one. And I think the first one might have been, I do first I think I did gumbos Arab because it was Mardi Gras. That's probably it. I love Mardi Gras. And so I think that was and that's not a cake Of course, but that's what started me doing these these videos. And I've sort of seduced by the the accolades that they produce. So now and now I can't stop. So today I'm doing a pre seven pound cake. So it's the same as these in here. They're, they're everywhere. They're they're like weeds. You know, there.

Chris Spear: 37:24

I haven't had any persimmons this season yet. And I think I need to go find some before the seasons gone. So have you have you lived anywhere else in the US? Or have you always been in North Carolina guy.

Unknown: 37:35

I was born in eastern North Carolina and I lived there until I was 18 when I came to Chapel Hill, which is also in North Carolina, to go to school and I was a horrible student. I was a very good hippie. So I wandered around a lot. Um, but I mainly mainly always had an address here. There was a while I worked for a theatre company, I was in New York, I was a chorus boy, believe it or not for a couple years. I lived in New York in Manhattan for you know, a year and a half or so. And there was on the road was with the theater company. But basically I lived here in Chapel Hill. I've lived here for under this house since 1984. And I came here in 1967. So I've lived here longer than anywhere. When I'm from daddy's No, my great grandmother was from Cape Hatteras.

Chris Spear: 38:16

So what's the key to staying young? It seems like you're very young at heart, and very active. Any secrets?

Unknown: 38:22

Well, I actually I've talked to my doctor a little bit about this, but I don't have a car I haven't had a car in about since 1973. And I've ridden a bicycle every day for like 50 years, so that it takes its toll on one's knees, but I think I'm in pretty good health. I'm quite lucky actually. I don't have anything really wrong with me.

Chris Spear: 38:42

That's fantastic. I've been walking five miles a day. I started back in July, and and then this morning I switched up to bike riding because I wanted to go get some food, but I think more people need to be walking and biking.

Unknown: 38:54

I enjoy it. I do every hing on the bicycle. I do all y shopping and all kinds of stu f, and and people are saying "I' l give you a ride". I take on when the weather's really cru my, like a sleet storm of cour e. But I really like it. I don' mind getting rained on. I'm g ad this is a good town for bicyc ing, and everybody bikes, and t eir are bike lanes. The traf ic is used to seeing bicyclis s and things like that. So, you now, another place might not e so pleasant, but it is her.

Chris Spear: 39:28

Is there anything else you want to go over before we get out of here today?

Bill Smith: 39:32

No. I've enjoyed talking with you.

Chris Spear: 39:35

Well, thanks so much for coming on the show. And to all our listeners, this has been the Chefs Without Restaurants podcast. As always, you can find us at chefswithoutrestaurants.com and.org, and on all social media. Thanks so much, and have a great week.