More Than Podcasting: Are we missing opportunities?

In this interview with Eric Nevins, founder of the Christian Podcasters Association, we discuss the potential waiting to be unlocked through podcasting.

Eric hosts the Halfway There Podcast.

Transcript

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Kay Helm  0:00  
This is the life and mission Podcast. I'm Kay Helm. And today my guest is Eric Nevins. We're talking about podcasting platforms and the opportunities that podcasting presents to people like you with a message.

Kay Helm  0:24  
Hey, Eric, welcome to podcast.

Eric Nevins  0:27  
Hey, thanks for having me. Kay, it's good to be here.

Kay Helm  0:29  
Awesome. I got to know you through the Christian podcasters Association. And we were laughing before we started recording because I keep calling you the pastor of the association. Tell us about that.

Eric Nevins  0:43  
Well, yeah. Okay. So that's yeah, that's funny. I you know, what's interesting is I kind of function that way, in many ways of just kind of bringing people together and helping people through whatever podcasting crisis might be coming up. But I think there's a spiritual element of podcasting. I really believe that people who start podcast you find your voice in a way that maybe you other opportunities don't offer. And so the and I think that's really important to for spiritual maturity is, is knowing your voice. So, yeah, that's what I do. But because of podcasters Association, it's, it's started as a Facebook group that was just free on Facebook. And when I started, there weren't many groups for Christian podcasters there's quite a few more now, I noticed. But we were kind of one of the one out there one of the beginning ones. Yeah. And I just wanted to bring Christian podcasters together. And so my is to have them connect and learn and grow and support each other in this mission. What I love about it is we have podcasters, from all kinds of denominational backgrounds. I spent enough time in my 20s arguing about theology, we do that now. So but it's, but we all get along and we support each other, we get on each other's shows we, you know, share whatever, and guest and all those things. So it's really a fun community to get together.

Kay Helm  2:04  
Yeah, and that's a key word community, you know, that's podcasting can be a solitary, lonely thing. And everybody's out there going, you know, okay, is anybody listening? You know, yep.

Eric Nevins  2:20  
That's right. Well, that's exactly why I started it. So I started in 2016. And, you know, my first year was, was, you know, slow, right? It takes takes a while to build and to, to grow. And you're kind of alone. You know, like, my office is in my basement. So I'm in, you know, my basement talking to myself or talking to the wall. And just wondering, is anybody going to hear this? You hear the Guru's say things like, oh, ask for reviews or ask for feedback. But the reality is, most people when they're listened to a podcast, they're doing something else. They're doing the dishes. Most people actually listen to podcasts at home. Did you know that? So I thought it might be driving, right? I thought it might be driving, but it's not. It's like, so when they're doing dishes, cooking, cleaning, stuff like that. So they're busy. They're not like gonna sit down write you an email. So having people in your life that actually get that and can can understand what you're doing with your show, is really helpful.

Kay Helm  3:19  
Yeah, so true. So it really is a supportive community, too. I have wanted to have you on here as a guest on life and mission, because I hear you speak about podcasting. And I think, you know, sometimes we see it, like, remember when blogging was the big thing, and everybody was starting to blog. And it was, you know, just a lot of it was I'm gonna journal publicly. Yeah. And I think a lot of people see podcasts like that now. But I see you as seeing it as, really something greater. And I wonder if you could just let us into what do you see?

Eric Nevins  4:03  
Oh, yeah. Well, I love that you asked this question. Because I agree with you. Here's the here's the thing to ask yourself. So blogging was probably like 2008, right to those nine, somewhere in there. How many of those I'm just gonna journal blogs are still out there. Right? Or got famous or got a book deal or got, you know, the answer is zero, right. And not very many of them. The ones that did well, and had went on to have other success were the ones that had a specific aim. And a specific mission that they were that they were or journey that they were biting somebody into. Right. So. So I think that's completely true with podcasting, as well. And I don't see podcasting as just a fad. I know that it's starting to hear jokes like, oh, everybody's got a podcast. That's true. It seems like there are a lot but there's only 2.4 million podcasts out there, actually, right. So it's not as many as you say blank. And within the Christian category, I think it's like 80,000, or something, it's not actually as many as you would, as you would think. But having said that, if you have a specific mission, you know who you're talking to, you know what you're trying to serve them with. For my shows called halfway there, I was wanting to share with people that this journey of life with God is longer, deeper and wider than they had been told. And there's more to it, even if you go through it, what's called the dark night of the soul, spiritual desert, hitting the wall, whatever want to call it. That is was what I wanted to do. And so that's what I've done. I got people to tell me their stories. And we've done okay. Same thing with other shows, right? I think if as long as you have your mission, you know what you're doing, who you're trying to reach and why, man, you can't be stopped. And here's, here's the other thing I like to say in the 19th century, we sent what we sent people around the world, right all over all over the place. In the 21st century, I think we're going to send content around the world. And podcasting is going to be an integral part of that.

Kay Helm  5:55  
Yeah, absolutely. Anything about podcasts can go places where people can't go very easily.

Eric Nevins  6:01  
Right. I mean, just ask how many people get downloads from countries that are otherwise, you know, locked, and you can't get in there? But the internet can? Yep.

Kay Helm  6:12  
Yeah, that's right. And, you know, we hear a lot about, you know, all the different types of content that's out there on the internet. And we can complain, or we can put out a different kind of content.

Eric Nevins  6:25  
Right, right. You can either be apart from it, or a part of it, right. And so this, there's probably a deeper conversation. If you've ever read Christ and culture, Richard Naver, like there's all these different ways of approaching it. And I've always been one of the like, people who's more like Christ, changing culture, you know, what I mean? Like Christ, kind of and culture come together? Because I think, certainly the gospel, the kingdom of God needs to be brought to bear on the cultures that we've gotten. So that's been what I've tried to do with Christian podcasters. Association.

Kay Helm  6:57  
Yeah, that's awesome. You know, as you're, as you were saying, that I was thinking about, I was a theater major in college. And, you know, the theater started in the church as a way to spread the Gospel and to start discipling people, especially because people didn't read. So you had to act out stories. So there's a lot of acting, and then it just, you know, it got more and more kind of out there. And, you know, making it more about the spectacle, and got away from the message a little bit. And then the church just kind of kicked it to the curb, and said, No, this is not godly. And just like, if you were in the theater, you couldn't be buried in the church, graveyard or the LA's, it was just did a total 180 From where it had started. But when we do that, we separate ourselves from not only from the culture, but from any influence we had. And we hand this massive communications tool over.

Eric Nevins  7:57  
Yes, and you know, that's not the first or the only thing, right, so we've done academia, we've done that with a lot of other places. I think it comes from this perception that if you don't agree with me, we can't be, you know, affiliated or in relationship at all. But you have a relationship, you've just decided that it's an antagonistic one, right, like, so like, decide, you know, what to be I don't think we see Jesus doing that he, he was in relationship with a lot of people. That which is, you know, gave the Pharisees a lot of license to criticize him. And yet, I think, arguably, he was probably the best at spreading his own his own message. Right. So maybe that's what we need to do. Yeah,

Kay Helm  8:38  
I love it. You mentioned you do have this wonderful podcast, and I love the interviews that you do, because it's like not not a highlight reel. Kind of interview. Yeah, but you just had your third 300th episode.

Eric Nevins  8:51  
Yeah, pretty cool.

Kay Helm  8:52  
That is congratulations. That's a milestone.

Eric Nevins  8:55  
Yeah. So I when I hit 100 episodes, I thought, Okay, this is cool. Like, but you know, even 300 is kind of a kind of a wild number to me, I've already decided I'm gonna do 500 I'm gonna do it for 10 years, one every week for 10 years. Right. And that's, that'll be it. But that's, yeah, it's been cool. I get to meet so many amazing people. I've learned so much about the spiritual journey along the way, which I kind of expected, but was it I'm surprised at how much how much I've learned and how wonderful that is really to see the work of God in people's lives. One of the things I always pray now for people before we start as I just acknowledged that they're the person in front of me their story is part of God's story, you know, and so there's sort of this holy moment to get to hear a little bit of what God's done in the world. That's, that's kind of cool. That's a that's a really amazing just honored to be part of

Kay Helm  9:52  
that truly, truly is. I tell it, tell us about halfway there, and I'm in Interested in the name as well, and how you came up with the name and just kind of tell us the story of halfway there?

Eric Nevins  10:06  
Yeah. So I, it took me two years to start my podcast because I was working in the financial industry. Because I graduated from seminary right at the end of the downturn or in the middle of the downturn. That was a not a good time to graduate from seminary. We're in a lot of jobs. And you know what, in retrospect, the Lord protected me I was pretty immature, I think I can look at now and go, Oh, yeah. All right. That's probably a good idea. But I still wanted to contribute to that spiritual formation conversation. And so eventually, I discovered podcasting. I knew I wanted to do something about the spiritual journey. But I also had this experience where I realized that stories were really important. They read of all things. It's actually a poll a book about politics, by oz Guinness, who actually got to talk to all my

Kay Helm  10:50  
shows pretty great. Yes, I listened to that episode.

Eric Nevins  10:53  
A couple times. And it was so so good. And I asked him about it. So but that, but he kind of made the point that, you know, it's really character in our society that matters. It doesn't matter what's written the Constitution, if nobody's gonna follow it. So I started asking the question, well, how do I, how do I actually shape character, and then I realized through a variety of things, actually, cultures have always used stories to shape character. And so that's what my show is. So I made a choice to actually interview people and have them tell me their stories. I tried to go beyond the interview, or beyond the idea of like, when I was a kid, the testimony was, you know, my life was terrible that I met Jesus. Now my life is great, right? That's just wonderful, except for all the other things that happen during life right after that, so I wanted to tell a whole story about what it's like to go through a dark night of the soul and to feel like God has abandoned you and to feel like he's, he's not coming through. And then how does that resolve? Because ultimately, it does. I talked about Habakkuk on my show all the time. That's his experience, right? He's mad at God. But it ends in his this tremendous poem of worship. That's probably one of my favorite the Bible. Okay, so he asked about the name halfway there. I'll never forget the moment because I was trying to think of names and I was driving home from work and I had all kinds of things I wanted to call it, but they were too vanilla, right? They were too just like, I don't like that. It's just boring. And so I ended up I'm a big Bon Jovi fan. So I always say it's a little bit one part, hat, hat tip to Bon Jovi. If you can leave think singing livin on a prayer, you'll probably never forget the name of my podcast. That was my thinking. And like in my head now. Exactly. That's what I mean. Like, it's so good. I can take advantage of Bon Jovi I got to see him a couple times here here in Denver, too. But But that's so that was kind of it. But then also there's this idea that the spiritual journey is not like we're never gonna get there. There's there is no place that we that we arrive at, even if even in turning my third interview. I was hanging out with my buddy that I interviewed for that interview named Bill Brown. He says to me on that episode, because I don't think that we'll ever be able to exhaust the knowledge of an infinite God, he will always be surprising us. Well, like that just blew me away right as Yeah, that's right. So that's where i That's why I have the name halfway there. It's you're gonna be on the journey and we may as well just embrace that. We're on the journey wherever we are now.

Kay Helm  13:26  
That's good. That's good. I had not heard the story of the the beginning of halfway I did definitely would have remembered the Bon Jovi part.

Eric Nevins  13:35  
Such a glam metal fan. That's so It's so cheesy now. But I love it. I love all that stuff. I'd go back and maybe the day before high school, I we stood outside, we didn't have tickets. So we stood outside at the Iowa State Fairgrounds to watch Nelson Do you remember Nelson? They were like to claim rock man. Yeah, long blonde hair. Awesome guitar. So so love it.

Kay Helm  13:59  
Those are the days

Eric Nevins  14:00  
yeah, they don't make music like that anymore.

Kay Helm  14:07  
As you interview people for halfway there. And you said you just didn't want to tell that kind of it was bad. But I met Jesus. And it was good story. Because you're so right. I mean, I think that really, you know, we have this kind of, if we have, that's the view we have. And that's the only picture we have of Christianity, then we can never like you say get there. We can never get there. So we don't bother.

Eric Nevins  14:30  
Right. Well, I think it's simplistic. And I And that's, you know, I get it that makes sense for giving a speech, right is to explain, you know, these these sort of things. But that's not the way lives work. Right. So we have to tell the bigger story is one of the questions I always ask is, have you been through a dark night of the soul? Some people don't get that if you're, you know, not Catholic, like this Jonatha cross a book that was really influential to me is called the critical journey. by Janet Hagberg and Robert Gulick, and that describes the spiritual journey. So I kind of just adopted their, their, their steps, and I walk through those phases in almost every interview, it's very, very similar. But you'd be surprised at the diversity and breadth of it experiences that we actually get. I've been really interested to hear from a bunch of different people in different regions of the world and the country in the United States, especially, but I tried to get outside when I can, but like, you know, Portland, somebody who grew up in Portland has a very different experience for somebody who grew up in Atlanta, right? That is spiritually or Texas or fast. And for some reason, I keep interviewing people from Indianapolis or around Indiana recently, like, what's that about? I don't know. But they but they have a very similar sort of Christian experience. And then they go different ways, you know, whatever. But that's, that fascinates me and I kind of a student of it.

Kay Helm  16:02  
So cool. And I love hearing the stories from different places, different people, different cultures, because God is so much bigger than our neighborhood.

Eric Nevins  16:13  
Right? Right. Oh, and he does things. And he uses things you would not expect. Right? So, so that there's, for summer, I did two interviews kind of right around the same time. One was John schlitt, who was the lead singer of Petra, he got thrown out of a rock band for having for doing too much cocaine, right. Like, I don't know how much it was secular. I don't know how much cooking had to do to get through another secular market. But he did, he did a lot. So anyway, he ends up coming to Christ. And then he gets this, this gig with Petra and sharing the story all over the world. The other one that I love was a guy who was like the worst, the country's most prolific bank robber when he was a teenager, right? Like he more than villager more than like he was, he was so he was up there. And he ends up finding Christ because a college, you know, guy who studied to be a pastor, gave him a Bible, and didn't judge him for it for his where his life was. And he tells him, hey, I want to, you know, I want to go home and do my coke and read the Bible. He says, Here we go. Go ahead. And the lack of judgment really influenced him. And by morning, he had read through the entire, I think the entire New Testament, like he just read from front to back, and gave his life to Christ. What now he helps people all over the country, he's helped homeless people and other people have been kinda in his position. So God didn't use anything. That's what I've learned. And, you know, there's there's a whole ton of other great stories, but that's, that's one of my favorites. Yeah,

Kay Helm  17:45  
those are cool. I mean, yeah, God's not held back. You know, it's kind of our own, you know, we can write we can say, yeah,

Eric Nevins  17:56  
yeah, we are, but he's not and he, he can use anybody and anything and so it behooves us to kind of pay attention to that and just be ready.

Kay Helm  18:07  
Okay, I'm gonna bring up kind of, I guess, can be a source sore subject these days. I mean, we're, there's gonna be a gap between recording this podcast and, and, and releasing it. So you know, anything can happen. Right? And the last couple of years has shown us that, but you know, there's, in some churches, they're just rolling along just fine. And others there's some conflict, do do we meet in person? Do we? Do we meet inside outside? Do we meet with masks? Do we meet without masks? do we what do we do? What do we do we now that now that, you know, if you consider the the pandemic over, you know, do we just shut down all the stuff that we were doing online? What? What do you see, again, going back to that original question of what you saw with podcasting, but now podcasting as something that the church might use, in this new day, where we see people, you know, picking up technology that maybe they wouldn't have picked up, oh, two and a half, three years ago.

Eric Nevins  19:10  
Yeah, you know, my hope. And I've been hopeful for two years, I've been thus far disappointed, but there are people starting to talk about this. My hope is that local churches will start to understand the value of what is called New Media, right? New media is podcasting. It is blogging, it is like online books. It is YouTube videos, things like that, and begin to understand that their reach goes beyond the people who walk in their door on a Sunday morning. It's great if you're a charismatic teacher, and we need charismatic teachers. We need people who can explain the word in a way that that everybody can get. But we also need to not limit ourselves now because we don't have to write let's say, it's like the it's like if we had, I'm sure there was somebody in the church at the beginning. In the 1500s, when the printing press was embedded, who just thought books were evil? Versus like, I don't know. I don't know if that's true or not, but you know what I mean? Like, it'd be like that just to saying, oh, books, books, we're just not going to worry about writing books. Are you kidding me? No, you have that opportunity to go around the world and share your message to create courses? I, I don't know many churches, it's how easy is it to take a Sunday sermon series, and turn it into an online course. Right? It takes some work to do it well, and to do it really good. But then you can give that resource. I know, some churches are doing this, but give that than a resource, give it away for free. And give it to your small groups to go through or to give it to anybody small group, if they see it, to go through, you know, or you can charge for it. If that's helpful, like, whatever. There's a variety of options depending on what you what works for you. But I would love to see more churches, step away from the sermon content, or it's fine, do the sermons like I'm happy, I'm happy for you to podcast, your sermon, podcasting is a new tape ministry. That's fine, I get it. But also, think about the ways that you can engage with people online that involves them. Right. So I've write for podcast magazine. And one thing I do in the review section. All the time when I write a review for of different shows, is I critique podcasts that put in churches, specifically who will only do a sermon podcast, because I think you're missing something. I think you're you're not using the technology that's available to you. I know it takes time. And so I give there's a lot of grace, right. But I'm also want to give the challenge, hey, think about it. Because maybe your ministry needs to reach more people, not just the ones that come in your door, but the ones who need it, and what guys land on your heart around the world.

Kay Helm  21:51  
And think about the the devices that we consume our media on, it's not a one way device anymore. Like it's not a TV. You know, this is where where the person sits passively while you speak at them. It's a phone and or, you know, or a computer. And that's a two way device.

Eric Nevins  22:13  
Yes. And yeah. Which, which is one of my problems with if all your if the extent of your church's technological reach is streaming your sermon or your service on Sunday. That's, that's okay. Like, I'm sure there are people that need that I'm not. But that's it. Apply some creativity, right? Like maybe there's some other things that you can do. And maybe you can ask some questions, and be curious, and make it not all about what you're creating. Maybe you can invite some other people to create or to answer some questions. Early in the pandemic, I started doing a zoom call me this is like when the first one, everything went down. And so for our church, I did a zoom call, and I facilitated it for six or seven months, just to make sure help people to it was kind of lobby right as a spiritual lobby. And after church, everybody hangs out in the lobby and thought, yeah, that's what I was allowing people to do. Because we didn't have time to do that. We couldn't Yeah, it was just missing and gone all the sudden. It wasn't about me, it wasn't about me looking, looking good, or, you know, whatever it was about everybody talking and sharing their lives together. And social media, and new media offers that opportunity.

Kay Helm  23:31  
Yeah, I've been part of a small group for much of the pandemic. Now it meets once a week by zoom. And, you know, I live I moved away, it's, you know, it's a 40 minute drive now to across the river and through the woods, to church. But it's, you know, we're open now, but I still love this zoom group. Yeah, and we really do share, we're all we've all said, We attend it more faithfully than if we were doing it in live. So we decided to just keep doing it by zoom.

Eric Nevins  24:05  
See, I've been talking to a lot of people on my podcast about so by law, I'm gonna say a handful, three or three or four people who've written books about and kind of encouraging us to like, let's get back to embodiment. And let's get back to like, these things are really important. And I agree, but I also don't think it's taking it seriously. Right. I think I think there is something we can be encouraged through zoom. Right? Is it nice if somebody can give me a pat on the back? Sure. But, you know, give me an encouraging word of resume. That's great. Like I'm, I'm happy to have it so right. So I don't think we should diminish it. I think we need to harness it. Yeah, yeah, that's

Kay Helm  24:45  
good. I you know, just even that two way kind of thing and just finding new ways to do things. One of the things that's been really helpful for me is I get a text every now and then from somebody to church, either the pastor, associate pastor or somebody on staff. Hey, how you Doing what's up? You know, they might call might text. But there's just this, you know, it's how can we do the interaction that we've been missing? However, it's kind of like a any, any way you can that's how to do it. And it doesn't have to be an either or thing. It can be both and

Eric Nevins  25:18  
Absolutely. I love that. Yeah,

Kay Helm  25:21  
I mean, that's that's it. What do you think is the future of podcasting?

Eric Nevins  25:29  
I worry about that all the time, I think. But every time I do I go back to those statistics. There's 2.4 million podcast right now, about 600, I think it was 677,000. So about 26% only have one episode, right. And then when you break it down between the 19 different categories, in Apple podcasts, they're actually aren't that many. And then in the Christian category, maybe there's 80,000, something like that. That's not as it's it's like the category that has the most have the most number of shows with the least number of listens. The opposite of the Christian category is true crime has the least number of shows the most number of listens, which, I guess kind of makes sense. But so when I saw I was thinking about that, and I'm wondering, like, what, you know, it feels like, it's saturated, and there's everybody's got a podcast, and there's, there's that. But I actually think there's more room, I think we're gonna see some creators who get really, really creative, who have niches that are interesting and unique, and maybe Christian adjacent, I'll say, where they their faith isn't necessarily their main thing, but they are speaking to Christians. And they, and they're going to do very, very well, I think we saw the rise and fall of Mars Hill last year. Blow up, right. I also got to talk to the Bible in a year podcast that was at the top of the church all year, like him, and yeah, and, and the rise and fall. So those, you're gonna see some people do that really well, I think, but I do think you're gonna see more churches and more pastors embrace the podcast as a means of discipleship. And I welcome

Kay Helm  27:10  
that you don't have to have a big crowd. I mean, my, my podcast host, I was lamenting, you know, that I didn't have this was maybe a year and a half ago, maybe even two whole years ago. And I was just like, well, you know, it's a little discouraged, because my download numbers, and she said, Okay, you have a church of this size that you're caring for. She's just think about that. Right to take care of your people. changed everything?

Eric Nevins  27:37  
Well, right, exactly. So if you, you know, however many we throw out a number like 75. So say you get satisfied downloads an episode. If you had 75 people coming to your living room, that would feel really full right to hear Yeah. Or filling up a room. You'd be, you'd be like, Oh, he'd be a little nervous. So it is good to keep that in, in mind. I just want to see people be creative about the shows that they create, and who they're trying to serve and think of podcasting as a discipleship tool.

Kay Helm  28:06  
That's great. That's great. Eric, I'm going to thank you for being on the show. I look up to you. You're a leader in this space. I have a lot of respect for. And I thank you for the work that you do for Christian podcasters. Tell us real quick about your podcast and where we can find you.

Eric Nevins  28:27  
Yeah, my podcast is called halfway there. And it's available anyplace you get podcasts. It's the essays, honest conversations with ordinary Christians about today's Christian experience. It's kind of a testimony show, but we try to go beyond the traditional testimony. I think you'll like it. And you can find me at Eric nevins.com. That's everything you need is there.

Kay Helm  28:47  
Awesome. Thanks a lot. Thanks. Until next time, I'm Kay Helm, and this is the life and mission podcast. Find your voice, tell your story. Change the World.

Kay Helm  29:25  
Mission writers is a one year course where you'll develop and practice essential storytelling skills to help increase funding for your mission. You'll learn the exact stories that every ministry missionary and nonprofit needs to tell. Develop your storytelling and direct response copywriting skills, learn the fundraising story calendar, build your story library and know when and how to tell your stories. You'll do that with coaching calls. I've got a course library that's already beginning to fill up with lessons and you'll have the community support you do not have to do This alone, but you do need to tell stories in order to raise funds. I have a free video workshop that you can get at my website. Kay helm.com. That's kyhelm.com Scroll down the page about two thirds of the way down, hit the purple button, and it will take you to sign up for that video of the three stories that every ministry mission and nonprofit needs to tell

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