267. Understanding Attachment Theory with Dr. Judy Ho

In this episode, Dr. Judy Ho, a triple board-certified clinical and forensic neuropsychologist, author, and tenured associate professor at Pepperdine University, delves into the profound impact of attachment theory on mental health, self-talk, and relationships. 

Dr. Ho explains how early childhood experiences shape our inner dialogue and provides actionable insights on how to move from insecure to secure attachment, both for ourselves and in our relationships with others.

We explore the four attachment styles, the power of self-compassion, and practical exercises to rewire negative thought patterns. Dr. Ho also shares valuable strategies for parents on balancing independence and connection with their children and how to prioritize self-awareness, energy, and well-being.

Dr. Ho’s most recent book, The New Rules of Attachment, offers a roadmap for healing insecure attachment styles at any age to optimize well-being, career success, and personal relationships.

Learn more about Dr. Judy Ho and her work at drjudyho.com.

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Transcript

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All right. We are recording. So, Hey there and welcome back to another episode of the reshape your health podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Morgan Nolte, and I am thrilled to have today's guest. I have with me today, Dr. Judy Ho. She is a triple board certified and licensed clinical and forensic neuropsychologist, a tenured associate professor at Pepperdine university, television and podcast host, and a published author of multiple works. Her most recent book is The New Rules of Attachment, which focuses on healing insecure attachment styles at any age to optimize wellbeing, career, goal attainment, and relationships with family, friends, and colleagues. Dr. Ho, welcome to the show. thank you so much, Dr. Morgan. I'm so excited to talk to you about attachment. Me too, we talk about non -attachment a lot on this show and my membership because when we're talking about behavior change and reversing insulin resistance, it really does come down to your habits, which ultimately stem from your thoughts. And I think that a lot of limiting thoughts or beliefs that don't serve us or that drive self -sabotage come from attachments. So I'm pumped for this conversation and I know that you're a true expert in this area. So I know that our listeners are gonna get a ton from this episode. I'm just gonna hit it off with our first question, because you had some great talking points. So can you explain the basic premise of attachment theory and why it's so critical for understanding our mental health? Well, attachment theory has to do with those crucial bonds that we had as infants and young children, because during those ages, we really can't survive at all on our own. So we're really dependent on the adults around us to take care of us, to help us understand how the world works. And it's during these times that your brain, because of the rapid acquisition of information, really cements certain ideas about yourself, about the way that people might respond to you when you ask for help. and also ultimately shapes how you believe whether or not you can achieve good outcomes in your life. And so all of these seeds of self -talk and self -concept and the basis of your self-esteem starts from these very early years and from your attachment bonds. And I'm wondering if you have a totally new perspective on this theory now that you're a parent and like kind of hyper alert and hyper vigilant that every interaction you have with your child just like has this influence on them. definitely. feel like when, when you don't have children, you know, this obviously from your work with patients, you know, from research, you know, from all of those things, but you don't really know. until you have your own children sometimes and you see that impact so directly. So I definitely think that it's elevated my understanding and I'm trying to find that balance of, not every single thing is going to actually shape the overall attachment style, right? Because sometimes that's like the more you know, the more stressed out it can be. I bet, I bet. Yeah, because sometimes when I'm like raising my voice at my son or I'm dismissing what he wants, I'm like, gosh, you're gonna, you're just gonna ruin him or something. But I'm glad that you say like not one interaction is gonna shape that. So I wanna just dig into this a little bit more. So how do early childhood experiences and our first relationships, so usually with our parents, shape our self -talk and our mental health as adults? Yeah. So when you are an infant or a toddler, there's multiple situations every single day where you're reaching out to your parents, to make a bid for their attention, to essentially ask them for something that you need. And obviously before your verbal, it's mostly through actions. It's through crying, things like that. They're all very biologically rooted. It's sort of how we survive as a species. but depending on how your parents respond. And again, I want to make it very clear that most parents are trying to do their best, but sometimes they have their own attachment wounds, how they grew up, the things that are going on in their lives while they're trying to manage raising young children, their own stressors, how they cope with their stressors. And so a lot of that is going to be foundational to the child in terms of watching what happens when they reach out and how their parents respond. gives them certain messages about how they should respond in the future, how they should ask or not ask for help in the future. And then it develops into these ideas about whether or not other people are trustworthy, whether or not you're important as a person, what kinds of things you need to do to get attention and to get caring from others. And depending on the attachment style that you develop, there are certain rules of life or scripts that you tend to use even as you go into adulthood and you don't actually need people to take care of you every single day the same way, but because it was at such a foundational time in life, you carry these ideas with you into your later years. Yeah. And I think that the cool thing about this episode is we're going to get into kind of the four main types of attachment styles and how each one tends to influence our thoughts and our behaviors. And so I know you're going to get into that next. And as the listeners are listening or watching, I really want them to try to identify with one, maybe more than one. Maybe there's like a predominant and a secondary. I don't know. You can explain that to us. but yeah. And then kind of think about their childhood and think about their parents and like, Where did these stem from? And then also I love the cycle. Like as a parent, you know, we were talking offline, we're both parents. I can see the same patterns that my mom exhibited towards me, repeating in me towards my children. I might have a great mom, but sometimes I don't want to repeat some of those patterns. Or in my marriage, like some of the patterns in my parents' marriage, I don't want to repeat in my own marriage. And if we're not aware of these, we can't change these. So I think that this awareness is a very important step. So why don't you kind of describe these four main types of attachment styles? Yeah, definitely. I think that thank you so much for sharing about your personal experience and what you've thought about as well. think that attachment styles, you know, while they can develop from childhood, most oftentimes, it can be changed at any age too. And so if you find that through our conversation, you have an insecure attachment style, or you're wondering maybe one of your children has an insecure attachment style. good news is there's always room to heal. There's always room to grow and change. that's, that's, I think what is hopeful about this whole conversation, but there are are four different attachment styles. There's one secure form of attachment and then there's three insecure forms. So one of the most talked about insecure attachment style forms when I look at social media or like what people are talking about in online articles is the anxious attachment style. So this is a person who may have grown up with parents who weren't always available. Maybe they were a little bit inconsistent in their availability to the child. Maybe they've said certain things that sound very critical. Maybe even as a way to try to motivate the child, but it really cemented into these ideas about themselves and they tended to develop lower self -esteem than the average person. Somebody who is anxiously attached really looks out to the environment to validate themselves or looking at how people are responding to them. They're wanting to get an okay before they tackle a project. They want to make sure everybody is okay with them doing things in a certain way. They also tend to be great helpers. They want to come to everyone's rescue and take care of everybody, but to the point sometimes of falling into codependency. And again, that is because they ultimately don't want to lose the support of that person either. So they make all these big actions, taking care of others so that other people might not abandon them in their time of need. So this is the insecure attachment style that's called anxious. There's the second insecure attachment style, which is avoidant. And oftentimes people think of that as a different side of the spectrum. So this is a person who grew up maybe being told by their parents that emotions don't really matter either directly or indirectly. When they have expressed emotions, their parents seemed overwhelmed by those expressions. But when they did well at school or when they played sports really well, or when they otherwise were helping their parents to do something, maybe take care of tasks in the house, they were rewarded with support and praise. So as an adult, they start to say, well, I can't talk about my feelings because nobody wants to hear it. And the way that I can get support and love from others is by achieving things is by being career oriented is by achieving goal after goal. And so they become really hyper independent and they start to hang their self -esteem on achievements rather than their connections and relationships with people or just knowing that they have inherent value without doing anything. Yeah. The last insecure attachment style is called the disorganized style. This is the one that I think is the most misunderstood. because a lot of people think that it's just a combination of anxious and avoidant. And I say that if that is how you feel, then you're probably a combination type. People didn't really think that that was possible, but I think that that's more common than we ever thought. The disorganized attachment style, child was growing up probably in a lot of chaos, maybe even over forms of trauma have happened to them. And as a result, they never really had a chance to feel safety for any prolonged period of time. So they're constantly in fight or flight as an adult. And that leads to a lot of difficulties with nervous system regulation. They can run hot and cold in relationships because they'll start to attach to somebody and then feel like they have to protect themselves. They start running away or they create some kind of problems so that the person will leave them first. And then they use that to confirm their beliefs that people can't be trusted. They oftentimes have a hard time thinking about long -term goals because again, if you're constantly in fight or flight, then it's about survival in the moment. And it's not about what do I want to do five years from now? And so the disorganized attachment style, while having all of these difficulties can also heal just like all of the other styles, it just might take them a little longer because sometimes the devil you know is better than what you don't. And so they tend to be more attracted to chaos even inadvertently without knowing it. And so it can be a little hard for them to get back on a more predictable and a more consistent track. And then the final style is a secure attachment style. So these are not people who have perfect lives. That's not what that's about, but it means that generally the parents were available. Generally the parents provided consistent support and did not hang that support on specific things like them behaving in a certain way or them achieving something. And so people who have secure attachment, they tend to have pretty high self -esteem. They tend to be able to rely on other people, but also feel okay about being independent. And their self -concept is pretty diverse. It's not just about how they're doing at work or how their relationships are going. It's kind of a balance of all those things. So then when something does go wrong in one of the areas of their life, they're going to be able to bounce back a lot easier because the way they feel about themselves isn't predicated on just one thing. Yeah. And I hope that listeners are kind of maybe saying, okay, yeah, that one resonates with me or that one. And personally, I feel like both of the first two that you mentioned, so the insecure resonate a little bit and now more so very secure. But I don't know if that's from my childhood or just like from rework that I've done. I wouldn't say like the disorganized was pertinent, but I think that you did a really good job kind of. delineating that one from the first two. So thank you for outlining those. You know, we talk a lot about self -talk. I know you talk a lot about self -talk and you talk about how it's a survival mechanism. Like it serves a purpose for survival. But for so many people, it's negative and it really affects their mental health. So we work out with a lot of people who want to lose weight, for example, and they're calling themselves fat or they're calling themselves lazy. Are they saying like, this is too hard for you or this is killing me? I always liked that one in the gym, like, this is killing me. And I'm like, yeah, if you say it's going to kill you, like, of course you're not going to enjoy it. So can you kind of talk about how that self -talk develops kind of based on that attachment style or theory and then how that kind of grows as grows with us, I guess, as we become adults. Yeah, definitely. Self -talk is inherent to the human condition. You know, it's one of the things that makes us get to the top of the food chain because we're able to think about our thinking, we're able to plan ahead, we're able to make, you know, make things work in the last minute because of our ability to be creative and to solve problems. But also it's part of our downfall when it's extreme. And your thoughts are always going to be... more geared towards the negative. It's a survival strategy because you have to see potential threats that could take you away from this world, so that you can prepare for them. And so, you know, your mind actually is oriented towards the negative just by default, just by our biological programming. and I think that if it's done in balance with also your, attention to the positive or what could be rewarding about a certain situation, then I think everything's in balance and it's working perfectly. The problem is sometimes we get too caught up in our negative thoughts and the negative perspectives of our brain. And we tend to latch on more to those ideas rather than those that might be more balanced or more positive. And this tends to happen more with the insecure attached styles. And each of them latch onto a different type of negative self -talk. So for example, the avoidantly attached tends to have self -talk that sounds like, you know, I can't count on others. I need to be alone when I'm stressed. My self -esteem is based on my achievements and my goals and not on anybody else. And those kinds of self -talk can lead them to basically become the proverbial lone wolf, even when they're under stress, which of course, when we're under stress, what actually takes us out of that stress is being in a community and being with other people. And again, that is a biologically rooted survival strategy because Humans are social beings because in packs we survive better. So you've actually seen studies like this where if somebody is alone for too long or perceived that they're lonely, their cortisol levels, that stress hormone is pervasively elevated. They tend to find themselves in nervous system dysregulation more. Again, because when you're alone, you have to be more hypervigilant to make sure that you survive. So that's one example from the avoidantly attached individuals. When you're anxiously attached, your self talk sounds more like everybody else is more important than me. I have to rescue everyone. have to overanalyze every situation because I don't want to miss something and then be ridiculed later or experience the fallout. And obviously when you're operating from that perspective, it can be really hard to actualize towards the things that you want individually. You may not have even asked yourself what you wanted for such a long time. And the more that you operate with that kind of self -talk, the more you also question your own self -worth when somebody is not there to validate for you. Right. And so those are really, really important aspects of the self -talk of the anxiously attached. And then finally, disorganized attached. tend to have self -talk that suggests that they have difficulty really understanding, essentially the, the ups and downs of life. You know, they, they really find that they're in chaos all the time. And they, tend to have self -talk like I'm never going to get out of the chaos. I don't deserve love. don't, I hate you. Don't leave me. There's a lot of this kind of, you know, back and forth extremes that they experience in their life. And that kind of self -talk obviously makes it a lot harder for them not only to develop trust with people, but also to think about themselves as a long -term being like. I'm somebody who deserves fulfillment in life. I'm somebody who five years from now, I could be in a better place than I am in now. Like they just can't have that future oriented thinking that most of us develop as we become adults. Yeah. Well, thanks for giving those examples. I think that's really helpful to hear like the thoughts, you know, like, okay, which thoughts match which style. And I can't remember who said it, but someone has said, you know, well, the thoughts that got you here won't get you there. And so I think that the next place I wanted to take this conversation was, right, if we identify with a, an attachment style, that's maybe in one of the insecure camps and we want to move into that more secure style of attachment, how do we do that? What's the process like? Well, the process really is based around reparenting. And reparenting is not a new therapeutic technique, but I think that it's been misunderstood over the years and also underutilized. And reparenting essentially means giving your adult self as well as inner child that still lives in all of us, that the inner child whose dreams and memories are all still alive and we're operating based on what our inner child's experiences have been. It's about giving that inner child permission to be themselves, to know that their needs and their wounds matter. And essentially using your adult self, which is a lot more efficient, a lot more knowledgeable, has a lot more self agency to, to reparent your inner child. So using the adult self's resources, the adult version of yourself to go and heal that child version of you. And I think this is why attachment work is so interesting because A lot of times people will say, well, I know that my parents might have not have done this on purpose, but they've definitely caused some baggage. It definitely caused some wounds and I want to talk to them about it, but they don't want to talk to me about it. And they don't think they did anything wrong. And I think that then they get discouraged. They're like, okay, well, I'm just going to have to work with this attachment style for the rest of my life. And I think that some online articles and social media propagates that they almost treat attachment styles like it's a personality type. And it's not, it's something that can be changed and it can be work that you can do even if the people who might've been influential in forming your attachment styles when you were younger are not available or don't want to do the work with you. so re -parenting is really about relying on yourself. It's like relying on your own wisdom, relying on your own ability as an adult now to show your inner child the way and say, yeah, maybe you didn't get the support that you wanted as a child and that's formed certain beliefs. But as the adult version of me, like I'm going to teach you what secure attachment really looks like, which is accepting you, even if you make mistakes, you know, knowing your self -worth, even when you're not the best version of yourself someday, knowing how to say no to people and that that's okay and that you can still be loved and supported, even if you're not there to help others all the time. And that even if you have a setback at work, didn't achieve a goal on time that you are still worthy of good outcomes in life. And so it's really about these different practical things that you can do every day to give yourself the message that you have worth and you don't have to be doing things in a specific way just to, just so that you can feel supported by others and feel like your self -concept should be high. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. know there's a couple of things kind of running through my mind as you're talking about this. And I think just as a parent, the first thing I want to do is instill independence in my child. And so sometimes that means like you need to play, it's independent playtime. You mommy, will you play with me? No, it's independent playtime. Like this is a good time to be creative and play it by yourself. And at the same time, I don't want him to feel neglected, know, like, mommy, never played with me as a child. And so I think how do we balance that? How do we balance the needs of ourself as a parent and the wants of our child and the true need for attention and connection and love? Like, how are you doing that as a mom? Yeah, it's a really good question. And I think that for me, you know, there's definitely some things in my own childhood that I've been reflecting on them now. And being a parent, kind like you were saying, there are some things that I don't necessarily want to repeat. You know, I thank my parents for a lot of what they've done, but there are certain things that I want to do differently in my own parenting journey. And so I think that, you know, one of the things that I've found is the most important is essentially an 80 -20 rule of sorts, even with parenting, people get so caught up. There's so many good parenting books out there with great advice, but you know, nobody can do all that all the time and there's no such thing as a perfect parent. So I kind of think about it as an 80 -20 rule, like 80 % of the time, if you're behaving in a reasonable way, if you're trying to attend to your child in a mindful way and 20 % of the time, oops, you messed up, you were super stressed, you kind of lost it and yelled at your child just because of your own frustrations. It's okay. They're probably all still going to turn out to be securely attached children. think that the most important thing though is being able to use those opportunities where you feel like, I wish I did that differently to actually, use them as, as teaching points as, a time to learn a lesson, not only for yourself, but for your child. So if you do become emotionally frustrated, yell at your child when you didn't mean to go to your child and say, Hey, I'm really sorry. I did that. I'm having a very stressful day. That's not an excuse. I'm just letting you know where that came from. But then also being really clear to communicate, you're not responsible for my feelings. like mom's trying to figure it out right now. She's trying to do something to, calm down, but that's not on you. You don't have to solve that problem for me. Mommy is going to try to figure it out myself. It might take a day or two, but I will, you know, don't worry about it. I think that that's, that's important. It's important to emit your fallacies. you know, say that you're working on it, but never make your child responsible. And then I think the second thing is just the power of just being present for your child. never knew how powerful that was until I became a mom. Like there'll be days where I think, okay, I've worked really hard this week. And, on Friday, I'm going to take half the day off and I'm going to take him to Disneyland, or I'm going to do all these like amazing things to like essentially make up for me being so busy the rest of the week. And then the craziest thing is my child just wants me to sit with him. Like he doesn't need me to bring out all the bells and whistles all the time. He just wants my attention and he just wants to sit with me. And that is the craziest thing, but also affirms that at the base, your self -worth is just by being right. It's not about what you do or what you say. It's about just being that that you have worth inherently. And that I think that that is the most important lesson from the innocence of a child is like, I just want my parent to sit next to me and like see what I'm doing and talk to me about what I'm doing. And that's pretty much it. You know, that's so crazy that it can be so simple sometimes. Yeah, I kind of like reading parenting books. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Because like you said, it's like not everything is going to be applicable and every child is different. So not every strategy is going to work on every child. But I read the book Good Inside by Dr. Becky Kennedy, or most of it. Have you heard of that one? Yeah, I've heard of it, but I have not read it. Well, I liked one of her lines in there. I don't necessarily agree with everything or like not everything would work for our children. But, one line that she said that really hit home for me was your children's ability to tolerate their frustration will be directly influenced by your ability to tolerate their frustration. And so it's like, if we're very reactive, like reactant to like their stress, if we don't have a high tolerance for their uncomfortable emotions, then they will never learn how to tolerate their uncomfortable emotions. Does that make sense to you as well? Yeah, definitely. That resonates with me so much because I think that that's where lot of insecure attachment comes from is either direct or indirect messages from parents that negative emotions either shouldn't even be spoken or can't be tolerated. Like the parents seem overwhelmed. right. child has a negative response. And I think it is so important just to say, hey, maybe I don't have the answer right now, but it's totally okay that you feel that way. Because sometimes you won't have a response. Like you don't exactly know how to help them in that moment. You know? But I think that the most important thing is accepting it. Yeah. And having the space and I think as a mom, like I view my biggest job as a mom, as a business owner, like to guard my energy, my attention and my time so that I can have the space for my priorities and my priorities are my children, my marriage. you know, that's, those are the top ones. And so if I'm overwhelmed, if I'm stressed out, if I'm, you know, if I'm up here or if my battery is completely drained, I can't be the mom that I want to be. And my children will then be more likely to develop one of the insecure attachment styles, which obviously is not my desire for them. So I think a lot of this, doesn't it stem back to self -care and self -awareness and developing the internal character at any age so that we can tolerate those uncomfortable emotions and have self -compassion instead of self -criticism when we're not perfect or we don't reach our goals or like... A negative thought pops into our head. Like to me, it really, like you've mentioned several times, it comes down to like knowing that you're worthy just because you are. But for some people, that's so much easier said than done, right? Because these are in the brain. So what are some simple exercises that people can do to get started reparenting themselves? Yeah, you know, I think that a lot of people have difficulty. really exercising self -compassion. Because sometimes they hold onto these beliefs, not only from their childhood of, maybe I'm not good enough, but I also think that sometimes they hold onto these beliefs like, well, but if I let this slide, then I'm not going to be a good person or, you know, how am going to motivate myself? And I think that the interesting thing is if you keep filling your mind with negative self-beliefs, then your feelings and your actions are gonna follow suit. You're gonna do things that essentially make it harder for you to self -actualize, to have good outcomes, to have good relationships, because ultimately on the inside, you're not gonna feel like you deserve it. And so there's different ways to motivate yourself other than just to be really cruel to yourself all the time. But I think that that's kind of an ingrained idea that somehow... by being negative to yourself, you're going to somehow get some movement and you're going to become this better version of you tomorrow. And that's just not how it works. So I do think that that's really important to point out because I think a lot of people do utilize self -talk in that way. It's like a way of punishing, but also as a way of thinking that that's somehow going to make you a better person. And it's just not true. So I think in terms of the reparenting work, one of the things that I think is really helpful is to start to gradually change your thought processes. But in a way that's actually going to ring true for you. It's not really about just these blanket positive statements, because when you're not feeling great about yourself, that's not really going to be helpful, you know, because you're not really going to actually believe them anyway. And that big cognitive dissonance is actually going to make it even harder to get back on track. So I think that the thing to go for is actually really more of a balanced thinking that's emphasizing things you can control in action, rather than just the most wonderful person in the world. Like that's just not realistic and you don't probably actually feel that way. So I think that one piece of re -parenting advice that's good to start with is to really start to understand the self -talk of people who tend to be securely attached and their self -talk is not overtly positive. It's more just balance and focuses on their action. So I like to challenge my patients to essentially write down, pick one of these four statements that people who have secure attachment tend to say to themselves and write it down, post it in a visible place, look in the mirror and say it to yourself and visualize yourself embodying these qualities and skill sets. So the four statements are I believe in and like myself, right? I can and like myself. I can handle what comes my way. I can create positive outcomes in my life. And finally, I can be independent and rely on others too. So notice that each of these statements emphasizes something that you can do, that there's like an action, that it's about a skill, that it's about a balance, right? It's not like I believe in and love myself every day. No, it's just, I believe in and like myself. There's a way to try to channel this idea that there doesn't have to be this self -hatred, that there's a self -like, you know? And then handling what comes my way. Yeah, lots of crazy things might happen, but I can handle it. I believe in my ability to handle it. Right. I can create positive outcomes and I deserve them, you know, but, but I have a hand in creating positive outcomes in my life. And then finally, I can be independent and rely on other people as well. So depending on the situation, it may be time to be independent or it may be time to rely on other people. I can be flexible with that. I don't have to only rely on myself or overly depend on somebody else. And so I think that those are the things that I have people work on as a first step to reparenting is to start to change that. internal operating system, how you're talking to yourself, because then it manifests in how you feel and how you act. Yeah, I think just one really easy example from my own life is when I grew up, my mom kind of did it all. She was an attorney. She was emotionally present for us, but she did, she worked a lot and I saw her do it all. I saw her make all the meals, do the cleaning. Like my dad was present, but my mom was certainly like the primary caregiver. And just this morning, you know, like I'm shooting all these videos right now for work and, Mm -hmm. I accidentally deleted one yesterday and I had a little bit of extra filming to do this morning. thought, gosh, it would be so nice if Justin would take the kids to school today. And then I asked for help. It's like, Hey honey, can you please take the kids to school this morning so that I can get, you know, an extra 30 minutes of work in. he's like, sure. But my default programming is to not ask for help because that's what I saw growing up. And so I think it's also really beneficial. Like once you start to identify your own pattern. start to identify thoughts that create anxiety or like thoughts that don't feel good. Maybe it's like a better way to say it because I think that sometimes it's hard for us to identify those thoughts, like the thoughts, but it's easy to identify the emotion. So like if we start with the emotion of, I'm feeling a little bit overwhelmed this morning. Okay, well, why am I feeling overwhelmed? Because I'm having the thought that I need to take the kids to school and then do this and this and this. it's like. But I don't have to do all this on my own. I am married. So that's just a really easy, practical example from somebody who came from that background of I have to do it all. My worth is from how much I do, essentially. Nope, it's OK to ask for help. And then I just wanted to point out the use of autosuggestion there. So we have an entire course lesson on autosuggestion, and I'm such a fan of it. And that's kind of like put it up on the Post -It, embody it. Can you speak to the power of auto suggestion and what it is and how it kind of helps rewire our brains? Yeah, I love that you mentioned this and I thank you so much for giving some examples from your own life. But essentially auto suggestion is something that you probably have been using as various aspects of your life, but maybe you didn't actually know that it was an auto suggestion essentially. And if you've ever told yourself like to wake up at a certain time to concentrate like to smile, like all of that is auto -suggestion. So essentially auto -suggestion is one of the most powerful mind programming rules. It's basically something that you already do naturally, sometimes unconsciously, but when you can make it more specific and to do it more intentionally, it's gonna make some really, really big differences in your life. And the basis behind auto -suggestion is that your thoughts when you give them weight, when you pay attention to them, that can then result in certain feelings and actions that are going to affect your lives accordingly. Right. And so the easiest way I think, to learn auto suggestion techniques, is some of the ways that you already mentioned and that I also talked about, which is just, you know, writing something down, reading it, and then in visualizing yourself, embodying that or doing that. It can have a big connection to visualization and your ultimate performance. So if you're about to go into an interview, you know, writing something down, like, I'm going to be able to say everything that I've wanted to or prepared in the interview. Right. and then looking at that the day before the interview, looking at that, the morning of the interview, doing a brief visualization of yourself in the interview, being able to speak eloquently and being prepared. You know, all of that's going to create neural connections that when you're actually into the interview, you're going to have more success. And elite athletes have been doing this forever. You know, when they can't practice in the pool, when there's Olympic swimmers that can't practice in the pool, they are just visualizing themselves swimming in the pool and how that's going to go when they get to that final race. All of that really creates not only these neurochemical changes, but it also creates a pathway for you to see that skill through. And so even if you're not actually doing it, even just thinking the thought starts to make it a reality in one way or another. And some of that becomes automatic and you don't even realize that it's happening. But the more that you can practice auto suggestion and the more that you can use these tools, the more you're going to be able to manifest the things that you really want for yourself. Yeah. And this works. Like I'll tell you what I've been doing this process of auto suggestion every single morning. I call it my personal faith formula. And it's essentially like how I want to show up in my life and every aspect of my life. And I like it because it's a self accountability check, but it's also just kind of a, it's like you're putting your glasses on for the day. And then every choice that you make during the day is through that lens. Like, okay, is this in line with the highest version of myself, the highest vision of myself, or am I negotiating down with myself here? so I have that one. And then I also just started a process where I have like a short -term goal and I visualize like the day after I reached that goal, like anchoring it with a celebration of sorts. And so I kind of wrote out this vision statement of having already achieved the goal. What is that celebratory state look like? How do I feel? What am I doing? What am I seeing? And it really, I read that every day and it just kind of gets you into that excited celebratory state and out of fear or worry or like. You know, if a problem comes up, like, it's all good. Like my brain already believes that like my success is inevitable. And so I can totally attest to the power of auto suggestion. And I wanted to also just say, was, I was thinking about Olympic athletes too. It's funny that you mentioned that because I was watching the Olympics recently and I'm, I was kind of surprised where if they interviewed someone and they were like, what made the difference or what have you been focusing on over the last years, last four years, it was all mindset. you know, Simone Biles, the swimmers, who also, a couple of swimmers at least mentioned mindset. And that they're like, I knew I had the physical ability, but I didn't have the mental ability. And one swimmer in particular, it was a male, but I don't remember who said that he, wrote down a note. He had this critic in him, like that would fuel him. And so he would just like criticize himself all the time in the pool, like, You're such a failure, go faster. Like you're terrible, blah, blah. And it would wreck him. Like he got a medal four years ago and like came back and he had like no joy, nothing to celebrate. Right. And so he really worked a lot on that and like balancing that and realizing when to use the critic and like when to silence the critic and when to use a different fuel source. And I always say like, you can't achieve a positive outcome. from a negative mindset. Like there's, just doesn't work like that. And so I think you can use that negative energy as a fuel source only so long before to like burn your engine out. And there's just such a happier way to reach your goals. So I've, I know I've kind of experienced that. one more question for you before we kind of reached the end here, we've talked a little bit about negative self -talk and kind of re, re -circuiting our brains. Can you give us just like a practical exercise that someone can go through if they're struggling with that negative critical self -talk? How do we break that specific cycle? Yeah, I think the first thing that you should remind yourself is that thoughts are not necessarily true. I love to just kind of write out thoughts do not equal truth, like that unequal sign with like the little equal, but like with a slash through it, thoughts do not equal truth. have over 10 to 50 ,000 of thought fragments a day. It's not possible that all of those are true. So it's just even that simple reminder of like thoughts do not equal truth. And then the next technique that I really like to help people take is just essentially, actually evaluating their thought. So make two columns on a piece of paper, evidence for and evidence against, and write your negative thought across the top. And then actually write down what's the evidence for this thought being true. And that wouldn't be more thoughts. That would be things that you can observe in the environment that if somebody came into the room and saw it, they could say, yeah, that's true or no, that's not. And then you would make the same list for evidence that the thought isn't true. And then usually when you look, after a couple of minutes of doing this, you'll notice, okay, it's not all one side. Usually there's something in both columns and that's just one place to start shaking your thought process, right? Another way to do this is just using the ABCs. Like just ask yourself, is this thought accurate to the situation? A balanced way of thinking of the situation? And does it capture the situation completely? So ABC, accurate. balanced complete. And if your answer is no to any of those three components, then that thought isn't really true the way that you just stated it. And then the last, the last piece that I take people through after they've done those first two, and you can choose one or the other, you don't have to do both of those. The last piece is to create a new yes, but statement. So yes, acknowledging something that isn't going well, but acknowledging something that is in process or is going well. So yes, I did not get that promotion this time, but I'm enrolled in a new certification program and that's going to help me become more skilled and probably help me to get my next job. Right. So it's really important to actually have a complete balance and accurate view. And most of the times we don't because our thoughts are shorthand. I love that and that's so true. Our thoughts are shorthand and I think that's the power of journaling longhand to really go a little bit deeper. I like to think of a negative thought or limiting thought is like a ball of yarn. And when you start to journal, you're pulling on that thread of yarn and kind of like smoothing it out and seeing what's underneath. have one other thought that I had was, you Who likes to be criticized by other people? Like nobody, how defensive do we get? if, you know, with all this negative self -talk sometimes that people experience, I like to just have them envision somebody else telling them that. know, picture your sister or your brother or your mom or your dad or, you know, your aunt telling you those same words. Like how much would, how mad would you be at them? So like, if we don't like to be criticized by other people, why do we criticize herself? And I think that... Part of it's just the norm, we get used to it, but let's really practice some self-compassion there. Those are some awesome tips for sharing on the negative self -talk. Thank you so much for being here. I know you have a lot more wisdom in your book. Can you tell us where we can find it? Well, thank you so much, Dr. Morgan, for your insights as well and your tips. Thank you again for highlighting my book. It's called The New Rules of Attachment. It's available wherever books are sold. And follow me on social media or sign up for my newsletter for more tips and free resources from me. I'm at Dr. Judy Ho across platforms. And then my website is drjudyhodoc Well, thank you so much, Dr. Ho, for sharing your insight. know I've never written a book, but I've spoken to so many authors. I know it's a huge labor of love. So thank you for writing that and getting that out into the world. I know it's going to help a lot of people. And I just appreciate your time here today. Thank you so much. thank you. Okay, we'll cut it off. Okay, three. So have you used Riverside before to like let it finish uploading? Okay, cool. I'm gonna start recording. Perfect.