283. What Role Does God Play in Our Change: Faith and the 12-Steps to Sobriety With Ian Cron

Do you ever feel trapped by habits or attachments that seem impossible to break? What if the struggles you face—whether addiction, unhealthy attachments, or self-doubt—aren’t just problems to solve, but signs of a deeper transformation waiting to happen?

In this episode, you'll learn from bestselling author, psychotherapist, and Enneagram expert Ian Morgan Cron to explore the unexpected power of the 12 steps—not just for addiction recovery, but for anyone seeking lasting personal and spiritual growth.

Ian shares his own battle with addiction and the surprising ways the 12 steps can help break free from limiting beliefs, shame, and the false self that holds you back. He also dives into faith, misconceptions about spirituality, and why surrendering to a higher power is crucial for real change. Plus, you'll learn how the Enneagram can be a powerful tool for self-discovery and personal development.

If you don’t confront these struggles, they may continue to shape your choices, relationships, and well-being. But there’s a way forward. Listen now to discover how the 12 steps—and a new understanding of yourself—can lead to true transformation.

Resources From The Guest

>>Ian Morgan Cron’s Website 

>>Ian Morgan Cron’s Instagram 

>>Ian Morgan Cron’s Twitter 

Resources From This Episode

>> Insulin Resistance Diet Blueprint - https://www.zivli.com/blueprint?el=podcast

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Transcript

Hey there and welcome back to another episode of the Reshape Your Health podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Morgan, and today we are talking about addiction. Specifically, I have a guest with me, Ian Morgan-Krone is a bestselling author, psychotherapist, Enneagram teacher, Episcopal priest, and the host of the popular podcast Typology, which is based on the Enneagram test, if anyone's familiar with that. His books include The Enneagram Primer, The Road Back to You,

which is an Enneagram journey to self-discovery. So just getting to know yourself better and your personality and your tendencies better. And it sold over 1 million copies, which is really impressive. And then his new book is called The Fix, How the 12 Steps Offer a Surprising Path of Transformation for the Well-Adjusted, The Down and Out, and Everyone in Between. Ian, thank you so much for coming on the show. I think this is gonna be a really interesting.

and somewhat broad conversation too about addiction, you know, personalities that might be more prone to addiction. And then we're definitely going to be incorporating some spirituality or faith components into this conversation as well, especially with your Episcopal priest background. There's just been some things that have, some questions that have come up that I wanted to ask you on the role of God in change versus self and change. So.

I'm excited for that as well. Yeah. So you've been pretty open with your journey, 30 year journey with addiction and recovery from that, from alcoholism. So can you kind of explain to me how the 12 steps really helped impact your life and maybe just give us an overview of the 12 steps.

Ian Cron (01:40)
Great.

Sure. So thanks for having me on Morgan. I first was introduced to the 12 steps many years ago when I came into a 12 step recovery program for alcoholism. And I was a Christian at the time and people were sometimes like, how could you have been a Christian and become addicted to something? It's like, well, it's called the human condition, right? Like just because you're a person of faith doesn't mean you're exempt.

from the struggles that all human beings have of dealing with life. And I like to say that the first time I was involved with the 12 step world that I just audited the class. You know what I mean? Like I just, I wasn't really, yeah, I wasn't really quite taking the course for credit yet. Now the good news was, is that it expelled and removed the craving for a mood altering substance from my life. And I was.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (02:42)
You're kind of feeling it out.

Ian Cron (02:55)
abstinent for many, years. And then in 2020, I had a relapse. I went to treatment for 30 days. I chose to keep that private because I'm not one of these guys who goes on Instagram and broadcasts all the dramatic news of his life to the world. I just don't think that's appropriate for me. And I just wanted to do my work. that was kept to my family and friends, closest friends.

And, and I'm really glad I made that decision, because it gave me opportunity to work on the underlying causes and conditions of, what happened, you know, like what happened? and why did it happen? and then about not so long ago, I thought, you know, my life has been so blessed and revolutionized by working the steps.

which by the way, for your listeners who probably don't know much about the history of them, derived from a Christian organization called the Oxford Group. So the steps are very compatible and they feather well with faith. Really the steps are just the gospel laid out in 12 sort of building block ways. And what got me excited was, wait a second,

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (04:11)
interesting.

Ian Cron (04:20)
the steps would actually benefit anybody who has any kind of attachment problem or addiction problem or not. Right? Like in other words, it's like, you don't need to like be a, a down and out person to, to use the steps. Like the steps are for everybody. And actually I yearn for people to experience what I and many people have experienced in their lives as a result of working them. I want everybody to do them.

Like, like it would change anybody. Right. So that's the impetus behind the book.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (04:54)
That's great. And can you give us an over? don't know if you have a memorized, but just for people who aren't familiar with the 12 steps, I think I know a couple. Can we kind of start with that top view of what are the 12 steps?

Ian Cron (05:07)
Yeah. So I can just quickly go through them, but, but you know, they're, they're not too long, but, but let me just preface it by saying when you hear steps one to three, it's really about mending your relationship with God. Even if you think that's already mended, I think that's part of one of the things that people think it's like, well, I've already got that done. gave my life to Jesus. You know, it's like, well, let's just think about that for a second. Then steps four through seven are really about mending your relationship with yourself.

Eight and nine is about mending and deepening your relationship with others. And then 10 through 12 is just about how do I maintain a lifestyle that supports health in each of those three domains of my life moving forward? Right. That's basically the gospel, right? It's basically get, let's get right with God. Let's get right with yourself. Let's get right with others. And then let's like live focused on those relationships being healthy moving forward. Right.

So here it is, one through three, we admitted we were powerless over blank. Now you can fill in the gap here. You don't have to have it be alcohol or drugs. could be, I admit that I am powerless over sugar. I am powerless over eating. am compulsive eating. I am powerless over workaholism. I am powerless over people pleasing. I am powerless over this particular relationship that I keep going back to despite the fact that it's harmful to me.

Everybody has addictions. That's just a fact, right? So the first one is we admitted we were powerless over blank that our lives had become unmanageable To came to believe that a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity Made a decision three made a decision to turn our will in our lives over to the care of God as we understood him So there's basically one to one to three is this in summary. I can't He can I think I'll let him

One, two, and three, right? All right, so then you get to four through seven. Four is made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. Five is admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being, the exact nature of our wrongs. Six, we're entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. Seven is humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings. So that's actually turning our gaze inward.

And saying, okay, I got to do some work here. I got to figure out what's going on inside of me that is, you know, largely responsible for all the difficult emotions that I have, and dealing with the unmanageability of my life. And that also fuel my addictive or compulsive behaviors. Then eight, now we're moving into others made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all right out of the gospel. Nine.

made direct amends to such people wherever possible except when to do so would injure them or others. All now we're just dealing with our outward life, right? And then 10 through 12, maintenance. Continue to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. 11, sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood him, praying only for knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry that out.

And 12 is having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to fellow sufferers and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (08:39)
Yeah, pretty much the gospel laid out in 12 steps. right. And I've never studied the 12 steps. So I think it's really interesting to hear you lay them out. We do have members who have struggled with alcoholism. And so I know the 12 steps have been life changing for them. I wanted to take a brief pause here because not everybody listening to this show is Christian and certainly not everybody listening even has a faith that they might be a spiritual person. They might not.

And so, know, step two in many of the steps relates to believing in a power greater than ourselves to restore us to Sandy. So what if you don't believe in God? What if you don't believe in a higher power? Can someone who isn't a person of faith or even a spiritual person find healing from working these steps? So how do you reconcile that?

Ian Cron (09:34)
Yeah. So the steps are pretty, are not, they do not hide the fact that it is a spiritual program. the recovery is not a self-help program. Right. And I always laugh. tell people, listen, if myself could have helped myself, don't you think myself would have done it by now? Like self-help is kind of a funny term because like, why do we even have self-help places in bookstores? Right. Like it's like,

wait a minute, self help? Like, what do we even have? If we could help ourselves, why are all these books out here? You know? So, you know, I think it's, I know many people in 12 step programs or who work the steps who would describe themselves as as agnostics, right? And, you know, many of those people go on to embrace faith traditions later. But, you know, it's just an entry point. Like, can you just admit?

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (10:11)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ian Cron (10:34)
the possibility that there's a force out there that loves you, cares about you, wants the best for you and can give you the power to change your life. So I love the fact that it's baby steps, right? And we oftentimes tell newcomers, all you have to do is be willing to believe that there's a power greater than you because so far your life is not working out the way it's supposed to, right? And

The only thing you need to believe in is that you are not that higher power, right? Like, because clearly it's not working with you as the higher power of your life, right? So someone outside of you or something outside of you has to disentangle you from the things that are, you know, imprisoning you. So the answer is absolutely. People can come in and start at any

point along the journey of spirituality, even if it's like, know so many people come in and they're like, I want nothing to do with the God thing. but very slowly over time, they start to have a spiritual awakening as they work the steps, which is the point of them. And they come to believe in a power greater than themselves that loves them and cares about them. And sometimes that morphs into

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (11:56)
Mm-hmm.

Ian Cron (11:58)
they're embracing Christianity or some other form of spirituality.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (12:02)
Yeah, I have two follow up questions. So I know that one barrier to people initiating a faith life is they feel like people who go to church are hypocrites, you know, because they go to church and then they still sin or they're still rude or they still do bad things. And how would you answer that person who is using that as a reason to like not initiate some sort of faith or spiritual journey of their own?

blaming other people that they're hypocrites for doing so.

Ian Cron (12:34)
Yeah, I mean it depends on-

Well, a couple of things. is, you know, sometimes people have illusions, like they're disillusioned with church, right? And I'm like, that's because you had an illusion. You can't be disillusioned unless you first had an illusion. So if you're, if you believe that you're, that all Christians or people of faith were going to be perfect and get along and live this like utopian life together, you had an illusion. Like you need to own the fact that you understood this

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (12:47)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Ian Cron (13:07)
poorly. You can't put five people together in a condo association without problems breaking out. You know what I mean? Like what made you think this was going to be different? Right? secondly, you're talking about a community, community of people who freely admit that they have problems that, that only a higher power God, as they choose to call them, can solve. no

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (13:12)
Thank you.

Right.

Ian Cron (13:33)
you should not be surprised at all that they act out in ways that are disappointing. They themselves are there because they know they act out in ways that are disappointing. The only difference is that, you know, like at least they admit it, like, like at least they're being honest. and then the third thing I'd say to those folks is, you know, are you just projecting your own shadow onto other people and, then beating it up? Because aren't you a hippo? Who's not a hypocrite?

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (14:03)
Who's not,

right? We all have those moments. Yeah.

Ian Cron (14:04)
Yeah, a hypocrite. Yeah.

So a hypocrite is somebody who has a set of values and then consistently fails to live up to them, right? Though they continue to espouse them. And I'm like, really? Like you're going to actually be critical of other people who are not living up to their values when you yourself cannot live up to your own values. Like

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (14:26)
I feel like I

hit a crit every day, but I keep trying and I'm like, that's fine. That's all I can do is keep trying.

Ian Cron (14:30)
Yes.

Right. isn't criticizing others for not living up to their ideals a form of hypocrisy on your own like behalf? So I don't know. I try to say that gently to people, but it is I don't think it's a very helpful view of people.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (14:53)
Yeah, I agree. And I'm a really deep, like spiritual person myself. And so one of my favorite verses to remind myself of is, have no right to look down or criticize your brother. Each of us will stand before the judgment seat of God. And so I think that, you know, we're taking on more responsibility than what's meant for us when we're judging other people or calling them hypocritical. But the second thing that I wanted to just pick your brain about, just because you do have such a history with the Christian faith is,

A member emailed me and I'm just gonna read the question so that you can hear the internal struggle that this member was going through. And then I'm gonna synthesize the question in the best way that I could and just let you roll with it. So this specific member has struggled with alcohol in the past, food in the past, kind of what we're talking about here. And this person is a strong

Christian and so really trying to bring that aspect into his change journey. So this person wrote, can you help me work through how we change as a Christian? We know that scripture says man is not good, you know, basically evil with a bad heart or nature. Only one is good and that that one is God. How can we expect ourselves to change or do anything without God or without God allowing the change?

If I understand this correctly, real change, the life changing type can only come about through the quote unquote rebirth or being born again. God steps in and replaces my heart of stone with a heart of flesh, essentially. I can't make any lasting change without God making the first move. So you can really hear just that internal wrestling of like, is this God?

allowing me to change. I, you know, channeling the change through me? so when I was thinking about how do I synthesize that it's like, does change come from our own efforts because God does give us free will. or is it God's grace working through us, as you mentioned earlier, being open to that invitation, being open to God's change. I, I wrestle with that too. I mean, it's such an interesting and thoughtful question that I wanted to bring to you.

Ian Cron (17:19)
It's a beautiful question. It's a gorgeous question, actually. And I think I can answer it, but let me and I'll try to do it succinctly. But I actually address this very issue in the book, The Fix, right? So I think most.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (17:21)
Yeah.

Ian Cron (17:36)
people of faith.

believe that they are on a journey of transformation, but actually they're in a project of reformation. So reformation is I'm going to try to be a good Christian. I'm going to try to change myself. I really want, I'm going to work really hard to be like Jesus. Right. And I'm like, how's that going? Right. Because on your own unaided willpower, you cannot bring about

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (18:01)
Good.

Ian Cron (18:09)
deep level transformation. You just can't. The same consciousness that created the problem can't solve it. For example, if someone says to me, I'm trying to be a good Christian, I might say to them, then you really don't understand the gospel yet. You don't have to try to be a good Christian. That's contrary to what

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (18:30)
Mm-hmm.

Ian Cron (18:38)
scripture says, right? It's actually contrary to what my experience says of life, right? So I have a story in the fix where I, and you'll have to forgive me because it's a little tongue in cheek, but it's about my son. When he was about a year and a half old, maybe two, I was giving him a bath and I realized I didn't have a towel. So I ran to the linen closet to get one. And by the time I got back, now you know how this happens.

He had taken an epic poo in the tub

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (19:10)
my gosh.

Ian Cron (19:12)
Now you know how little kids do that, right? And

now, and while I was gone, he recognized that he had created kind of an environmental disaster, right? Like harp seals are dying. It's not good. Penguins are like, you know, it's not good. And he has tried to pick it up to get it out of the tub and off of himself. And as he picks it up, it gets on his hands and then he realizes, my hands are dirty. So then he wipes it on his, on his hair.

And then he realizes, my hair is a mess. And then he starts wiping it on the white tiled walls. Right. And so by the time I get back, I have walked into he's just covered in, his own mess. Right. And he has tried to fix himself. He's tried to clean up the mess by himself. And in doing so he's created more of a mess. Right. So all of his best efforts have been for not what he needed was.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (19:50)
Thank

Ian Cron (20:08)
a power greater than himself. Hello, Dad, to enter the picture and clean him up, take care of everything, get the place back to normal. Right. And that is a really good picture of how transformation happens. Right. So I believe that in the steps help us learn how to do this, that transformation happens when not through our own unaided

Willpower and effort but when we give God consent, this is a very big concept give God consent to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves and that's actually just pure 12-step teaching give God consent to do for you what you cannot do for yourself So that's why those steps the steps sound very simple, but when you get into them and actually start working them

Like you realize they have incredible depth, right? So for example, look at steps like, you know, six and seven. We were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. And then seven is humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings. Now who's responsible there for changing us according to those two steps? God. And that's called grace. That's what grace is.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (21:09)
yeah.

Ian Cron (21:35)
That's the activity of grace in a human life, right? You know that you are in a life-giving relationship with God when you begin to change without your even doing very much, right? Like God is inside you, bringing about changes organically, not by virtue of like effort. Now, here's the deal. There is a mysterious kind of dance between effort and consent. Like, obviously I gotta sit down, I gotta...

do an inventory of what's going on. got to look at the underlying. I have to look at where I'm broken and where things aren't working and turn my attention toward doing my part. But to understand that by doing my part, I am not saving myself. Like I'm just cooperating and giving God consent to do it for me. That's transformation, not reformation.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (22:26)
Yeah.

Okay, well, awesome. I also wrote down some thoughts and I wanted to just share them with you and, you know, spitball with each other here. I think the first thing that came to my mind when you were reading the steps were a few lines, you know, asked him to remove, just like you said, and can give you the power, like God can give you the power. And...

those are right in the 12 steps, just like we just mentioned. And to me, that really reminded me of the vine and the branches verse in one of the gospels. don't know where. Our pastor a few weeks ago did such a beautiful, beautiful message. It must be in John, I don't know, because we're going through the book of John right now. And it's essentially like, I can't do anything except through God. And so if we are removed from the vine,

Ian Cron (23:06)
Yes.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (23:28)
If we remove ourselves from the vine with our own free will, we can't do anything. And I love what pastor said. He said, our job is not to produce the fruit, the fruit being the fruit of the Holy spirit. So patients love gentleness, self-control, generosity, et cetera. Our job is not to produce the fruit. Our job is to stay connected to the vine, which to me, we read very much into the last few steps of the 12 step program, right?

Ian Cron (23:33)
Yes.

Yes, yes.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (23:58)
And so when we're considering like, is change coming from our own free will or is it coming from God working through us? I think our free will absolutely plays a part, but part of using our free will needs to be to invite God into the problem and admit that we, you he is God and we are not. But, go ahead, Dorrie. Of course. Yeah.

Ian Cron (24:21)
Yeah. So Morgan, can I interrupt you on one? Just really quickly. I

want to make sure that people understand that your willpower is far weaker than you think it is. People talk about, I have free will as though it's powerful. Like, right? Like I got news for you. Like in the face of your attachments and addictions in life, I always like, I tell people it's like, it's like a traffic cone trying to stop an avalanche.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (24:36)
that's so interesting.

Ian Cron (24:51)
Right? Like if you have a sugar addiction or a food addiction, you have been, your willpower is like, your addictions will eat your willpower for lunch. Like, know what I mean? Like you are, you are, it's just true. Right? Like, you know, this is what brings Paul to say, I don't know why I can't do the things I want to do. I, you know, I'm like, he's describing a bottom. He's describing that moment that

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (25:00)
Unfortunately, we're not trying to make light of it, but it's just true.

Yes.

Ian Cron (25:20)
alcoholics or workaholics. like, I can't stop working. know I should. I see that it has negative consequences for my life, but I just keep doing it and I don't know why. it's like, well, because your willpower is no match for that power in your life. So you're going to have to rely on some other power greater than you. most people can maybe agree with this theologically, but experientially they don't have a relationship with God.

that actually can bring about this kind of change. Cause you know what they're doing to your point about the buying of the branches. They're just taping fruit to trees. They're just, I'm going to try. And it's like just taping fruit to trees and it's all on the outside, right? This is an inside job. Like, like a tree produces fruit from the root system up. It doesn't have to try.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (25:54)
Yeah.

Ian Cron (26:19)
It's a very organic process, right? So, but what you can do is stay connected to God in such a way that that process happens unimpeded, right? And actually your own efforts often get in the way of God doing it for you. As strange and as passive as that sounds, it's just true.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (26:19)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Ian Cron (26:44)
Like we just get in the way sometimes where if we just stayed connected, it would happen on its own.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (26:49)
Okay, I have a couple, this is such a cool conversation. I just wanted to read that verse really quick that you mentioned in case people wanted to reference it. It's Romans 7, 15 through 20. This is the NIV version. I do not understand what I do for what I want to do is not what, for what I want to do, I do not do, but what I hate, I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, then he goes on, blah, blah.

It's essentially like, why do I keep doing what I know I'm not supposed to do? Why do I keep doing what I hate? This is the human condition. And this is why I'm such a believer that we gotta stay attached to God because he is the one that can do great things through us. I think I have a question about,

What are some signs that our own efforts are getting in the way? Like what are some signs or symptoms that we are impeding God's work in our life?

Ian Cron (27:52)
Yeah.

mean, I think frustration for sure. Disillusionment with faith because we're not seeing transformation. It can also be discouragement because I'm trying so hard and nothing's happening. know, a lack of joy is another thing. Self-righteousness, elder brother syndrome, right? That feeling like, hey, I'm doing all the right stuff. Where's the, where's the, where's the

Where's my reward here? And so I, I think we tend to not actually pay attention enough to self righteousness. Right. And, you know, you said, well, how do we know when we're, getting in our own way? It's usually the self getting in the way that the ego self that Paul talks about, you know, the one that we would hopefully have, like, you know, when Paul talks like he says,

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (28:44)
Yeah, yeah.

Ian Cron (28:51)
for I have been crucified with Christ. All right, well, what does that mean? It's not that you're a, you know, I'm not a big believer that, you are a hundred percent bad all the way through and through and you're a miserable wretch. don't, that's a particular theological framework that I, I acknowledge could be true, but it's just not, I don't buy it a hundred percent. That said, what Paul is saying there, the word I in that sentence is in Greek is ego, ego, for I have been, so he's not saying,

that your identity is going to be annihilated, right? He's saying the false self, the self that runs on will, the self that runs on self-propulsion, right? That wants to control everybody, everything in the environment, right? And bend it to its purposes, right? That narcissistic, crazy little part of you that wants to make life tolerable and workable apart from God's presence in your life. That's the part that, and by the way,

I definitely want that to be crucified because that's the part of me that makes my life unmanageable and miserable. And so it takes a minute though for me, like, like to be crucified with Christ, it's like, you know, crucifixion is actually took a while. They didn't, you know what I mean? Like we have to be, this is going to take a minute. This is going to take a minute. Right. And so, it's a, it's a, it's a process that happens over time.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (29:58)
Mm-hmm.

interesting concept as well.

Ian Cron (30:20)
And I think people get impatient. Like, well, why isn't this happening now? Because we're so, so used to a culture that says everything should happen instantly. And it's like the spiritual life, there are no hacks. They just don't exist in the spiritual life. Right. And as one, one great theologian said, spiritual change is the slowest of all human movements. So we have to be patient. We have to be self compassionate.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (30:24)
Great. Yeah.

Ian Cron (30:49)
We make mistakes, we get back up, we keep going. It's just the nature of the animal, right? And shame will not help you at all. Shame will not help you change, even though we think it will.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (31:02)
Yeah, I think some people are motivated, like they motivate themselves differently. And so some people use shame and they use guilt almost as like a fuel to their fire. Like, I'm so fat or I did it again or I'm such a horrible person. I need to do something different. And so it's kind of like, how would you speak into that and that self-talk into almost like the fuel that's driving their desire to change? One person might be running on.

Ian Cron (31:16)
Yeah.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (31:29)
you know, diesel that's like very pollution to their system and it's negative and it's toxic and they don't even recognize it. And then what's the alternative to that? Because so many people, that's their default. They shame themselves, they guilt themselves, they speak critically to themselves in hopes that it will motivate them to want to do better. So how do we shift out?

Ian Cron (31:49)
Yeah,

it doesn't work. I just promise you it will not work. you know, if you believe that there is an evil force in the universe, I think one of its primary weapons is shame. And that's why we're always reminded. Therefore there are now now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. I mean, like, you know, when my when I had a two year old or a one and a half year old, they're learning to walk and they fall down. Did I beat that kid up for falling down?

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (31:51)
Yeah.

Absolutely

not. No.

Ian Cron (32:19)
Right.

I've just pick them up. I wipe off their butt and I go, let's see if we can walk a little further next time. Right. And I do it with great love. Right. And if they cry when they fall, I go off, come here, baby. Let me help you. What makes us think that's not how God operates. Like I fall down. God goes, dude, sorry, let's get back up and we'll just keep going. You know, I'm learning how to walk this new life. Right. And it takes a minute to learn how to do that. Right. So we,

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (32:22)
Thank

Ian Cron (32:47)
You know, one of the things that I find interesting, I'm a therapist. And so one of the things that I find so interesting is like internal family systems and in internal family systems. Here's something I want people to hear. If you have an eating problem, right, I want you to stop calling it an eating problem. I want you to start calling it an eating solution. You have an eating solution. You have a problem in your life and you think overeating is going to solve that problem.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (32:54)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Ian Cron (33:17)
You have anxiety, low self-esteem, have trauma, you have all these things going on in your life and they really cause you a lot of distress. And you think, man, if I just eat a sleeve of donuts at two o'clock in the morning when I can't sleep, or if I have sugar, or if I take a drink, or if I overwork, it's gonna make this pain and this other part of my life go away. Okay?

turn to an external solution to solve an internal problem. It's like going to the hardware store to buy bread. It's just not, you can keep trying, but the hardware store does not have the bread you want. You have to go to the right store, which is God. now, one of the things that 12 Steps does is helps you remove, is to help you change the solution to the problem. It's going to help you to address the underlying problem that causes

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (34:12)
interesting.

Ian Cron (34:15)
the compulsive behavior, right?

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (34:18)
I've never heard anybody say it like that. And if people are a little bit confused, just rewind it like 60 seconds because it's such common language. I have an eating problem. have an overeating problem. And what you're saying is no, you're using eating. You're using overeating as a solution to an underlying problem. And so the 12 steps, the 12 steps is helping you identify the real underlying problem.

Ian Cron (34:38)
Yes.

Yeah. And where

does that happen? Well, steps four to seven. I'm going to make a fearless and moral inventory. I'm going to admit to God, to myself and to others. You're beginning to exhume, to unearth what's going on beneath the dirt line of your life that's causing problems above the dirt line. Does that make sense? Like we got to go down there and kind of root this stuff out, but good luck doing it yourself. So God has to be in charge of that process.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (35:06)
Yeah, it makes sense to me.

Ian Cron (35:15)
Like you on your own will do what my son did in the bathtub. You will make more of a mess by trying to do this on your own and you'll just get frustrated and disillusioned. You can go to a million therapists and I'm a therapist. I am a big believer in therapy. So I would say to you, you know, in addition to all your spiritual work, of course, go get outside help. Right? No question. Go see, go see a nutritionist, go see a dietician, go see your doctor, go figure out what's going on, you know, in that realm.

but understand that real transformation, they're not gonna give that to you. This is gonna have to be a spiritual path that ultimately is gonna save you from these compulsive behaviors. And by the way, the book is really written for people in this category. The steps are not just for alcoholics or drug addicts or...

It's for everybody. all have attachments and addictions. You can't read the same Bible I'm reading without knowing that's true. You just can't. What do we learn in Isaiah? All of us are drinking out of broken cisterns. The water in there is just brackish and toxic and it runs out. So every time I go to

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (36:20)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Ian Cron (36:35)
You know, if I was an alcoholic, every time I go to have it, I'm just drinking out of the wrong well. I'm trying to solve problems. And I mentioned IFS and this is important, right? without going into the system too deeply because we don't have time, but like understand that there's just a part of you that comes up with solutions. It's like a firefighter fighter inside, right? And it, sees pain in some other part of you. And it's like,

I need to put that fire out. And it comes up with not so great strategies to put that fire in the other part of your life out, like overeating or drinking or overworking or over-exercising or whatever. And the problem is, that the solution that part of you comes up with eventually becomes a bigger problem than the problem it's trying to solve. So now you're overeating or you're drinking or you're

taking too many anxiety medications or your, you know, whatever your, you know, people pleasing relationship addictions gambling at whatever it is, right? Like it becomes a bigger problem than the problem it's trying to solve. And that's when you have to really do your work and the steps helps you do that.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (37:53)
I love that. What you unpacked was just gold there. I think one big barrier as I was reflecting through how would I answer that member's question is one's perspective on God because we're both Christians and we both have the Christian perspective that God is good, that God is loving, and that God deeply, deeply cares for us and that God is in us through the Holy Spirit.

That is not everybody's perception on God. Some people believe that God is just, you know, this scorekeeper up in the sky or that God doesn't care, you know, that he's an absent father. So much tragedy happens. And then just from personal experience, I've witnessed people's faith lives transformed from a very rich and very comforting, receiving a lot of that love and security from God.

to how could God let this happen? I don't know that there is a God and if there is a God, I don't know if he's good. So do you believe that that is part of this process as well as like reframing your relationship with God?

Ian Cron (39:02)
Yeah.

Don't you think like, listen, I don't care who you are. You're always going to have to keep updating your understanding of who God is. Right. It's not like, I became a Christian. I've now I completely understand God and how he works. Right. It's like, actually that's not anybody's experience. Right. So one of the things I love about the steps is like,

We step to, we came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. And I'm always like with, when I work with people of faith who are struggling with any kind of addiction, I'm like, we need to actually go back and revisit what your conception of God is. Because it, it's clear that there's some distortions there and some misunderstandings about God. And I don't know anybody who isn't, shouldn't always be.

in a process of evaluating and thinking, is my understanding of God accurate? How does it need to change? And I love that the steps, even for a person of faith is like helps us to really face what reality is when our relationship with God. Right. And because so much of what

our conception of God is based on is our relationship with our first caretakers. Sometimes we've come out of faith traditions that fed us lies, actually. Like I deal with a lot of people with spiritual trauma who have been told that they were evil and God hated them. And you know what I mean? And it's like, I'm like, whoa, you came out of a tradition that did not give you an accurate picture of who God is. And so, you know, we...

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (40:29)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

yeah.

Yeah.

Ian Cron (40:51)
We're always on this journey of coming to more clarity about who God is. And again, the steps help. And just so your listeners know the book, there's a there's a workbook you can get with it. It's one hundred and twenty pages. So it's not like one of these fluffy workbooks. It actually walks you through the steps in a way that kind of gets down into the meat of them and helps you to go, OK, so now I need to do some work of maybe better understanding.

the love and the nature of God and about who I am and, you know, in a way that's really kind and thorough.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (41:27)
Yeah, that's amazing. And we'll be sure to link up the book and the workbook and the show notes. I was just kind of reflecting on what a relief it is just as a person of faith. When I remember to do so, just to like give myself some grace and recognize that I am responsible for far less than I like to give myself credit for and

Ian Cron (41:57)
Yes.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (41:58)
It's just, it's a little bit of a relief, you know, when we don't have to try so hard to produce the fruit. And when we remember our only job is really to stay close to God, stay mindful. And let's go into some tips there because it's really easy to say that. Well, stay attached to the vine, stay close to God. How do we do that in a world that's full of distractions, in a world that...

loves instant gratification and allowed noisy world. Like what practical advice do you give to people to stay connected to God so that he can work with us?

Ian Cron (42:36)
Yeah.

Well, interestingly, the steps recognize that the world really works against a person who wants to have a deep spiritual life. So like in step 10, right, sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God. So really the steps have one purpose. Interestingly, it's not to stop drinking or overeating or, you know, whatever your compulsions are. That's actually not the point. That is a byproduct of something.

Right. The purpose of the steps is to facilitate a spiritual awakening of sufficient force that it renders our need for external solutions to internal problems unnecessary. Right. Like, sure. So the the purpose of the steps, as stated by the steps, is to facilitate a spiritual awakening of sufficient force.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (43:22)
Can you say that again? Because that was a very powerful say that line like one more time.

Ian Cron (43:35)
that it renders our need for external solutions to internal problems unnecessary. Right. So how do we, you know, stay connected? Well, once, you know, we like, for example, for me, the 12 steps teaches me about a morning routine that begins the day. Like I start every day with what's called the third step prayer. I say it before I get out of bed. Right. It is God.

I offer myself to thee to build with me and to do with me as thou wilt relieve me of the bondage of self That I may better do thy will Help me to overcome my difficulties That they may bear witness to thy love thy power and thy way of life May I do thy will always so right away? I'm starting the day off with this focus on not myself like you know

go into the day just blasting through it with my will, I'm actually beginning with surrender. And surrender and letting go are big parts of a 12 step program. It's recognizing that I have no power over people, places and things. You don't. In the book, think I say this one line, say, don't know why people think that they're so powerful when half of us can't, you know,

sneeze and not wet ourselves. You know what I mean? It's like, what are you kidding me? You think you're powerful? Like you don't even have control over your bladder for crying out loud, you know, and yet you think you have control over your world? Like that's nutty. So, you know, I love too that the steps are not something like you do once and then you're done. Like that's not how it works. You go through the steps in order first with usually

It's helpful if it's with another person or a little community that you form or that you go and be part of. And, you then after a while you work with the steps long enough, the numbers kind of fall away and you just start to do things out of the steps reflexively. Right. Like, for example, if I heard, if I say, if I get snappy with my wife, I think, boy, I'm going to have to go make amends. Step nine. Here we go.

made direct amends to such people wherever possible. And so or I may say, oh, I'm so anxious this morning about this meeting. And I go, oh, time to do a step three. Right. I'm going to make a decision to turn my will and my life over to the care of God. I'm nervous about this meeting, but I'm just going to turn it over because I don't have control over the outcome. Right. So you're you're just you just eventually become so fluent very quickly. You become very fluent in just this way of life.

that is very gospel minded. But most people, honestly, Morgan, they don't have a plan. Like they're doing their best. They're Christians, but they're kind of just thrashing around inside of biblical ideas. But there's no plan.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (46:41)
Yeah,

I would agree with that. think the 12 steps really provide a nice framework or structure, just like you were mentioning, where it's kind of like cleaning house the first time through. And then once it's clean, it's easier to put things back where they belong. Yeah, can steal it. You can use it.

Ian Cron (46:59)
I love that. I love that illustration. I'm going to use it. Thank you.

So yeah, but that's true. So the first time you clean a house, it's a little bit of work. That's the first time you do the steps. But once you've done the steps and you've you you're in this process of mending and deepening your relationship with God, with yourself and with others. After that, it's maintenance. Right.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (47:20)
Well,

and wouldn't you agree that it's easier to see when something is out of place when everything is first in its right place. But if everything is just kind of chaotic in your environment, as you were mentioning, you're just kind of floundering around in scripture and no structure. But once everything has a place and everything is in its place, it's so much easier to be like, oops, that's out of place. Let me take care of that.

Ian Cron (47:28)
Yes.

Right?

And that happens a lot, right? Like sometimes I'll be, you know, I'm experiencing, let's say anxiety or regret or something like that. That is a signal. Like your feelings are signals that something's not going right. Oftentimes, rather than dealing with what's not going right, we try to find a way to make the feeling go away. And that could come with chocolate donuts.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (48:11)
Yeah.

Ian Cron (48:11)
or eating, you know what I mean? Like it could just,

whatever it is, let's just get what, and that's why the title of the book is The Fix. We're always looking for fixes.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (48:20)
I was wondering, I was gonna ask, yeah, why was the title named The Fix? Yeah.

Ian Cron (48:24)
Well, it a right. It's a double entendre, right? Like everybody goes looking for a fix. And what I'm saying is the fix to our problems can be accomplished by working the steps, right? That's the real fix. Right now, I'm not saying it's the only system. I'm just saying it is a proven system that has clearly helped tens of millions of people completely and utterly change their lives for the better.

So we should actually say, maybe that would be given its success rate. Maybe I should take a look at it. Right. So, yeah. So that was the reason behind the title.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (48:58)
Mm-hmm.

I love that. Okay. I know that we didn't really get to the Enneagram stuff today, which I think is okay. We, this is a very deep conversation and I really appreciate it. Just being able to kind of pick your brain from a Christian's point of view on what is our role and change and God's role and change. And I know my member will be very happy with this interview and the depth that we went there. So can you let people know where they can find your book and the workbook and they're interested in learning more about Enneagram stuff where they can find you on that.

Ian Cron (49:33)
Yeah, so the title of the book is the fix how the 12 steps offer a surprising path of transformation for the well adjusted, the down and out and everyone in between, which means everybody, right? You can find that, I mean, everywhere like Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Books a Million, wherever you buy books, you know, it's available. You know, in terms of Enneagram stuff, I'm glad you asked, right? So the book that

I've written two books on the Enneagram, but the one that's best for someone who's coming at it fresh would be The Road Back to You. And I also, if you go to my website, which is iancron.com or ianmorgancron.com, they'll both get you there. There's an Enneagram assessment that you can take to find out what your type is. And I'm super stoked about it because it's a really powerful instrument. You'd get like a 22 page report on the back end that

describes your type and your wing and your subtype and all this stuff, right? And you could get started with your journey of learning your Enneagram type and what that's all about there.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (50:38)
And really quick, you just explain what that is, what it's based on? I think I'm in Enneagram three, but I don't remember what my wings are, wings mean. Yeah.

Ian Cron (50:47)
Yeah. So yeah,

so the Enneagram is a personality typing system and it teaches that there are nine basic personality styles in the world, one of which we gravitate toward and adopt in childhood, just as a way to cope, to feel safe, to protect ourselves and to navigate the world, this new world of relationships in which we find ourselves. Right. And there are beautiful parts to your personality. And I would describe personality as how you just

habitually and predictably show up for life, right? That's not a very clinical definition, but for our purposes, it works, right? And so, you know, we just learned that there are some really beautiful parts to it and there are some really unhealthy parts to it. And if we can learn what the unhealthy and the beautiful parts are, we can begin to exercise better self-governance, like making better choices.

and understanding why do I always act, think and feel this way? It's like, well, lot of it's just personality based stuff that you're doing and some of it's great. And when it's not great, it's really not great. So we can just begin to get some clarity. So if you were a three, right? Like you would be more likely than a lot of other types to be a workaholic. Right. an achiever, right? They're called the performer. And so you.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (52:05)
Yep, achiever. Yeah, that's what.

Ian Cron (52:11)
When you're doing great, you actually are really good at helping other people succeed versus just looking out for your own interests to be successful. When you're not doing great, you will kind of be always swapping out masks in order to win people over and to gain their admiration and all that stuff versus when you're healthy.

you're willing to share your failures with other people and how you've made mistakes so that they won't make the same ones and you're not worried about your image anymore. this is just like these little things that you learn about yourself. Yeah, I mean, it's so it's just it's not perfect like anything else, but it's super useful and it gets us better understanding our motivations, our fears and how we can just show up better for the world.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (52:48)
I eat this stuff up. Yeah, I love that.

Yeah, well, thank you so much. I'm going to do that assessment. And I love learning more about myself and my strengths and my areas for opportunity to get better. And, you know, just, I'd like to say become the best version myself, just continue to, you know, I don't know. I think that that's kind of our purpose on this earth to honor God is just to do that, to become the best version you can be.

Ian Cron (53:23)
Yeah, and you know what's,

I was just speaking at a conference in California this past couple of days, and I quoted for them what John Calvin says at the beginning of the Institutes, right? He says, without knowledge of self, there is no knowledge of God. Now that's a big statement. Without knowledge of self, there is no knowledge of God. And then, know, prior to that, St. Augustine wrote, Lord,

May I know myself that I may know thee. So what the Enneagram does is really part of a great Christian mission, which is I have to understand myself and when I understand myself, I will better understand God.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (54:07)
That's so interesting. would have thought it was maybe the other way around because you know, when I know God, I can know myself better because I don't, that's my natural reflection. Yeah.

Ian Cron (54:12)
That's the, yes.

Yes, but it's actually both. It's

actually both. But most Christians only focus on what you're saying, which is, just need to know more about God and I'll know myself. They don't actually know that the inverse is equally as important. Right. And oftentimes people unconsciously really don't want to know themselves. Right. They want to have. Yeah, yeah.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (54:35)
Hmm.

They're like afraid, what am I going to find? What's my engineering

going to say about me? Yeah.

Ian Cron (54:47)
Yeah,

and actually that's a big mistake in life, right? We have to do the work of understanding who we are and what you also are going to discover. Sure, you're going to find some things out about yourself that are a little cringy, but you're also going to find beautiful things about yourself that you didn't know. So it's a great adventure.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (55:07)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well, I'm excited to learn a little bit more about that. And I just really thank you for this conversation. This is definitely the most, the most like spiritual based conversation, change based conversation, but the timing was absolutely perfect since I just got that email from the member and I've been mulling over that and reflecting over that question. And I feel very aligned with kind of everything that you said. I hope our audience found this really helpful and they go get your book or books.

And thank you so much for your time and all the time and research and work that you've put up until this moment to be able to be here to share that with us.

Ian Cron (55:48)
Well, Morgan, thanks for having me on. really had fun.

Morgan Nolte, PT, DPT (55:50)
Thanks.

Okay, I'll stop the recording. Okay, that was great.