Both Partners Have a Porn Addiction History. One is Pursuing Real Recovery and the other Refuses to do so; Now What?

In episode 222 of the PBSE podcast, hosts Mark and Steve delve into a deeply personal and challenging topic after receiving a unique submission from a listener. The episode focuses on a couple where both partners have a history of porn  and sex addiction, but only one is actively pursuing recovery. The submission details the struggles of trying to support a partner who is resistant to seeking professional help due to past traumas and fears of exposing their addiction.

02:09 - 04:18: Unveiling the Listener's Challenge—Revealing the listener's submission about dealing with porn addiction in her relationship, highlighting the dynamics of both partners struggling with addiction but only one seeking recovery.

04:18 - 06:27: Recovery & Resistance—The listener's journey of recovery and her partner's resistance to seeking professional help.

06:27 - 08:36: Addiction & Hypocrisy—Mark & Steve share personal reflections on their own experiences with addiction, including the struggles with hypocrisy and denial in the face of needing help.

08:36 - 10:45: The Stigma and Fear of Exposure—Exploration of the stigma surrounding addiction and the overwhelming fear of exposure that prevents many individuals from seeking help.

10:45 - 12:54: Barriers to Recovery & the Power of Connection—The various barriers to recovery, including shame and fear of rejection, and the crucial role of connection and vulnerability in overcoming addiction.

12:54 - 15:03: Empathy, Support, & Relationship Dynamics—The importance of empathy and support in a relationship affected by addiction, and how the dynamics between the partners play a critical role in recovery efforts.

15:03 - 17:12: The Importance of Professional Help & Boundaries—The necessity of professional help in recovery and the establishment of healthy boundaries within the relationship for both partners.

17:12 - 19:21: The Potential for Recovery & Healthy Relationships— The potential for individuals and relationships to recover from addiction through committed work and mutual support.

19:21 - 21:30: The Role of Individual Recovery in Relationship Health—Highlighting how individual recovery efforts are essential for the health and sustainability of the relationship, and the dangers of co-dependency.

21:30 - 23:39: Love, Boundaries & Relationship Sustainability—Discussion on the balance between love and boundaries, and how unboundaried love can affect the sustainability of a relationship.

23:39 - 25:48: Facing Hard Truths & Making Difficult Decisions—The importance of facing hard truths within oneself and the relationship, and how difficult decisions may be necessary for long-term health and happiness.

25:48 - 27:57: Cultural & Social Perspectives on Addiction & Recovery—Reflecting on how cultural and social perceptions of addiction and recovery can impact individuals and their willingness to seek help.

27:57 - 30:06: D2C Program & the Importance of Community—Introduction to the Dare to Connect program, designed to provide a unique recovery experience through vulnerability, connection, and community support.

30:06 - 32:17: Conclusion & Encouragement for Listeners—Concluding remarks encouraging listeners to seek support, embrace vulnerability, and pursue recovery.

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:07

Hey everybody. I'm Steve Moore and I'm Mark Castleman. We know the pain and heartbreak of porn and sex addiction.

Speaker 2: 1:20

And we know the triumph of breaking completely free.

Speaker 3: 1:23

Every day, we help our clients find hope and healing.

Speaker 2: 1:26

Join us in the fight to take back your life, your marriage, and be stronger than ever.

Speaker 3: 1:31

This is the PBSC Squared Podcast.

Speaker 2: 1:49

Hey everybody, Mark and Steve on the PBSE podcast. This is episode 222. 222. I don't know if there's any significance in that string of numbers, but it sounds cool.

Speaker 1: 2:00

Well, it beats the hell out of 666.

Speaker 2: 2:02

So you know.

Speaker 1: 2:04

But episode 222.

Speaker 2: 2:06

Cool, well, it beats the hell out of 666.

Speaker 2: 2:09

So you know, but episode two, two, two and we. This was a, this was an awesome. I don't think we've ever gotten a submission quite like this from a PBSC listener, and we're going to talk about why. But you notice the title. Both partners have a porn addiction history. One is pursuing real recovery and the other refuses to do so. Now what?

Speaker 2: 2:27

To say that Steve and I are passionate about this topic would be an understatement. We almost didn't get a chance to record this podcast because we had so much to say about it before we got on the microphone here. This is true, but I'm going to read what this partner sent in and then we're going to dig into this. So here's what she says how do you help someone who doesn't want word about his addiction to get out? And she says hello, mark and Steve, my partner and I love your podcast and finding it has been a long awaited blessing for us. While the core issues in my relationship are common with your patients and listeners, my relationship itself probably isn't, which is okay. I'm a 22-year-old woman in a relationship with a 24-year-old man. We've been together for a little over a year. I am recovered, recovering from porn addiction just over six years sober, which is amazing.

Speaker 1: 3:26

Wonderful.

Speaker 2: 3:26

We have a lot to say about that in a minute. So happy for you. While my partner is still deep in his addiction, a little over three months into dating was our first D-Day or Discovery Day, and it's just been a whirlwind ever since. Just been a whirlwind ever since. I so very much want him to seek personal individual therapy from a CSAT or at least confide in his friends, but there's always an excuse for doing either one. He was traumatized by his childhood therapist so therapy is effectively off the table.

Speaker 2: 4:01

His friends are casual porn users and do not see the dangers of addiction. He blatantly refuses to confide in his parents, who are lovely and supportive people. He doesn't want all of this to quote get out and doesn't want other people involved in our quote relationship drama. He knows I tell my support circle about the hurdles we're facing, but he's uncomfortable with other people knowing what's going on in our relationship. I give him therapeutic advice from my support groups and my counseling circles, which helps immensely, but there is only so much I can do.

Speaker 2: 4:42

I love him just so much and it hurts that I see my former addict self in him. I know he wants recovery and he wants to be a better man, but he refuses to seek professional help. Because we are so young and so very new in our relationship and because we're thinking, because we are having so many problems so early on, what is the appropriate move? Do we call it quits? Do we push through and hope for a better future? With the hand we've been dealt, I see myself marrying this man, which makes it all the more difficult to navigate. Any and all advice is appreciated. Thank you, gentlemen, wow.

Speaker 1: 5:26

Well, love the submission and the vulnerability and, again, just so happy to hear about a female partner struggling with addiction who is so far into her own recovery Six years sober. I mean that's just. We could do a whole podcast on that. We won't. But we, you know, unfortunately, and and it's because the male side is so saturated, uh, you know, female addiction to pornography is by far the biggest growing demographic right now. It is the new target for the porn industry and it's just and we see more and more of that in our office. We know that kind of colloquially this is sort of a guy's issue, quote, unquote, right, that often is referred to and I just appreciate her being so vulnerable and sharing that. That's been a struggle for her and recovery with it, you know.

Speaker 2: 6:19

Her huge, huge courage, huge vulnerability and transparency, because you and I know as hard as it is for a guy to come forward if it's porn and sex addiction. It's even harder for a woman because of all the cultural and religious stigmas behind it.

Speaker 1: 6:34

On top of the, the ones that the guys deal with, right, it's just like, well, this is a, this is a guy's problem. You know this is a and so, no, absolutely love that. And there there's, there's a lot obviously here. Um, she, you know, we have a partner here of an addict who an addict, the, the female addict partner, I guess we should say. In this situation, obviously she's in a great place with sobriety and recovery and she has just epic amounts of empathy right for this addict partner, that she's with this guy and she can so connect with the barriers. And you know, mark and I we are just a preface, we're going to get probably pretty passionate here in a second. I'm I'm trying to kind of rein it in and gradually lead into that, but it just so happens. We talked about this on dare to connect this morning and we'll probably talk about that in a minute. But this is a pretty fired up topic for Mark and I and I think it's because we just relate so much.

Speaker 1: 7:30

When I first got into recovery I was kind of the ultimate hypocrite. I was a therapist who was specializing in addiction, chemical addiction, no less. The low point of my addiction. The low point of my addiction. Where actually change really began was after relapsing with pornography. In my office, after meeting with a client who had been working on their chemical addiction issues. I had just gotten done with a session and we'd had a great session.

Speaker 1: 8:01

And here I am living this ultimate dual lifestyle right Helping other people, seeing them get better, and myself completely in denial in lots of ways and at an insufficient level of willingness. And I'll tell you, one of my biggest barriers at that point was, I mean, I specialized in addiction at the time. I knew by that point I had a problem. Even Steve's addiction denial brain wasn't enough to be able to say, oh, this is no big issue.

Speaker 1: 8:31

I knew it was an issue and there were a lot of things going on, but one of the biggest ones, hands down, was what we're talking about right here is, as much as I knew that this wasn't fair to my wife, as much as I knew that I needed to change one, I was in denial about some of those things, but to my fear and desire to keep an image to not be real, um, to say that it was life and death for me. It really felt that way, in addition to maybe even the typical, because, like Mark, my profession, like my career, was dependent on people being able to look at Steve and say that guy could help me. And here I am the ultimate hypocrite, completely seeing people get better from their stuff and completely unable to do it on my own, in large measure because I was not yet ready to take the steps I needed to take.

Speaker 2: 9:28

Yeah, we talked about and my story is very similar to Steve's, as those of you who have been listening a long time know. We have to ask ourselves so why would this guy that's described here by this gal who's in great recovery, she's doing awesome stuff, but he just refuses? When we see that with so many addicts, we ask why does that happen? And Steve, you started to name some of those things. We have an absolute, deep, overwhelming fear that if we become transparent in our lives, if we actually let people see us for all of who we are, our lives are over.

Speaker 2: 10:09

I knew that if my whole addiction thing came out, no one would ever see me the same again, ever. They'll never accept me, they'll never love me, they'll reject me. I mean, my life is, my life is done, and so I had this attitude. I was going to take it to the grave, so to speak. I hear so much of that and what she describes here. Right, because he had traumatic experiences with a therapist as a kid. Therapy's quote off the table, and I absolutely empathize with bad experiences with a therapist.

Speaker 2: 10:42

I had some terrible experiences as a teen and young adult with mental health people, so I really do get that, but that's off the table, right, and he wants to be a better man. He wants, he wants to recover, but then there's all the dot, dot, dot after the butt Yep, right, and, and, and. So this is it just keeps you stuck. You can't go forward as long as you're in that mind space, and we talked a lot about that today in our Dare to Connect program with the guys in recovery, because we're going to spend a whole month of April on mindfulness, of moving from our addictive, reactive ways of thinking to proactive, you know, becoming watchers and observers and stepping back. What am I feeling and why? What am I doing and why? Right, and moving into that place. And so I I guess one of the things you and I asked, which would be an obvious question is there a way out for this guy? So she's describing him when, where does he go from here?

Speaker 1: 11:43

That's a great. It's a great question and I think, underneath our anger and resistance and everything else, mark and I, and probably many men out there listening to this, were in the in, you know, in quiet moments where we're and are asking themselves that same thing, right, and and we're all on this quest. I mean we, we talk oftentimes on this podcast about I think the way I term it is door number three or having having your cake and eating it too, right, mark and I, we both know what it's like.

Speaker 1: 12:11

We have kind of compared ourselves to like sexual crusaders from like the Middle Ages, right, but instead of a quest for like the Holy Grail, we were on this quest for the sexual grail Like. There has to be a way that I can retain all the benefits that come from a committed, connected, vulnerable style of living right Including sexually while at the same time not being connected and vulnerable and open with people.

Speaker 2: 12:42

Right, right, there's got to be a way to have this private, secret place to escape to when life gets hard or uncomfortable or stressful, or I have a pleasure hit or whatever. How did I used to? I used to talk to my clients, say you want to have, you want to have this nice little cottage with its white picket fence and your wonderful relationship in in in recovery ville, but you also want to slip back across the tracks to, to, to attic town whenever you need to.

Speaker 1: 13:10

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I want to keep my suite just off the Vegas strip, with the balcony view of the strip club below. I want to somehow be able to vacation there when I please. And the reality is, guys and this is true emotionally but it's true on a clinical level Addiction. The opposite of addiction. As and this is true emotionally but it's true on a clinical level Addiction, you know, the opposite of addiction, as we say all the time, quoting Johan Hari is not sobriety. The opposite of addiction is connection. That's true with any addiction. It is particularly true with this one Sexual addiction, or love addiction or both, or whatever you fall into under that category.

Speaker 1: 13:51

Sexual compulsion, however you want to term it is an attachment disorder. It's a failure to correctly attach with self, with others, and to utilize appropriate skill sets to cope, compensate and regulate emotions that come along with that lack of attachment. And we addicts, we will use everything under the sun to try to replace that. But we people are wired biologically for connection. But here we are suffering with an addiction that doesn't just disconnect us from others because of what we're talking about, there's the whole piece we won't even get into today. It's all that disconnect and escaping from self right and from everyone else, and so the only way through, is there hope for this guy? Absolutely. The question becomes is how far is he willing to go?

Speaker 1: 14:42

yes because and this and this is kind of the passion point for us we, when this, when this, uh, this, uh female partner who struggled with addiction but is in recovery, when she says that, that I love him and I'm confident that he loves me and wants to be a good man, we believe that we do that. That is not I. We take that at face value, because we felt the same way when Mark and I were in that place when we saw our wives hurting before we got serious about this, we weren't oblivious underneath all the denial and the minimizing and the justification. Every guy that I work with has those quiet moments where they can't escape their addiction and they sit there in their car before they go inside. Or in those quiet moments after a relapse where they sit and sob because they know where they're at and where they're headed is. They don't know where to go, but they know it's not here.

Speaker 2: 15:35

And we had our 12-step support group that we do every Sunday for addicts. We have a session for partners in betrayal, trauma healing, and I ran the group yesterday with the guys in D2C and this very topic came up and, steve, you had put together a graphic that showed a bridge and it showed a guy standing on the left-hand side of the bridge and we call that side me, my way right, my addiction, coping with life, staying secret, wearing masks, not allowing my whole self to be seen. He's standing over there, on that side of the bridge, and over across this big chasm is the other side. That's called we right, being seen, being engaged, surrendering, becoming part of a support and a whole and connecting in relationships. And this guy wants to get across that bridge. And you had put on the bridge all these brick wall barriers and there was shame, there was unhealthy guilt, there was fear of being rejected and abandoned, there was pride, but all these these walls, that he that would stand in the way of getting across that bridge, from addiction to recovery, from me to we. And that was me. That's why when you say this guy says he wants to be a better man and he wants to recover, I believe it.

Speaker 2: 16:51

Yeah, I remember just my place for having those real moments was on my back porch late at night, and I would go back on my back patio and just weep with my head in my hands. I wanted so desperately to be free from my addiction. I was desperate, I would cry and I would scream and I would shout out at God why won't you take this? You tell me you love me, but I've asked you a thousand times to take this from me and I'm still stuck here. What's wrong with you, god? You won't take it.

Speaker 2: 17:25

And I had that attitude, a very sincere, heartfelt attitude, but what did I also have at the same time? A very sincere, heartfelt attitude, but what did I also have at the same time? But I'm not willing to let anyone know.

Speaker 3: 17:36

Yes.

Speaker 2: 17:36

I'm not willing to get outside support. I'm not willing to start to voice myself honestly in a group of men. I'm not right. The list of what I wasn't willing to do was long no-transcript.

Speaker 1: 17:54

Well, and that's the problem, right Is, the one thing that we're oftentimes so averse to doing is very much the quote-unquote salvation in a situation like this. Right, going back to that clinical definition, right, you cannot overcome an attachment disorder, guys, by continuing to stay unattached.

Speaker 2: 18:14

Right.

Speaker 1: 18:14

Right, right, right. Vulnerability, connection, transparency, accountability for self with a partner, with the others that we need to have in our, in our, in our support corner. When we're down and we're facing our own lack of self-worth and shame and ego, we have to have people to turn to. We addicts when it comes to the, an ability to see correctly. We are a poisoned well, and that is half of the cycle.

Speaker 1: 18:42

The emotional cycle that we go through is we struggle because of our shame, because we don't feel worthy, because we feel scared of what people say. We don't, we won't turn to anyone else. And so what do we do? We draw more water from the same toxic well that is causing, is, in many ways, is causing the problem, and we end up deepening the addiction rather than escaping from it. And again, we can so connect with that desire and the fears, but it really comes down to and it's not in a we don't ask this in a shame-based way if, as this partner is, as these two partners are navigating this, you do, we call it quits, do we stay together, I and, I think, mark.

Speaker 2: 19:21

I don't want to speak for him, but we have 110% faith that a couple like this can make it if they are willing to do the work Well they have some huge advantages and it might sound strange for people listening to hear that female partner six years sober from her own pornography sexual addiction, who's active, all hands on deck, both feet in in recovery man, can she get this guy?

Speaker 1: 19:46

Talk about a ride or die partner for a guy struggling with addiction. I don't think you could handcraft a partner you could be with who's going to get it and be able to support you better. Honestly, it's huge.

Speaker 2: 19:58

It's huge, you know. But she says in here, she says, you know, she's sharing his recovery knowledge and experiences with him, which we always encourage addicts to do. If you've listened to us, you know, if you're in recovery, you always want to share with your partner how you're progressing. What did the discussion go like in group? What were the urges I felt today and what were the tools I used to move through them? She's doing all that with this partner of hers who's also an addict, which is awesome for her. She's doing it just right and she says it's helping him. But it isn't enough, Right? Why can a partner not carry the other partner in their recovery or healing? Right? A partner cannot carry another partner on his or her back to try to help them through their own recovery and healing. The partner can only do their side of the street, yeah.

Speaker 1: 20:56

So true. And so there's a couple of things here and I know we're we're pushing time here, but a couple of thoughts, um one for for for this partner. Um, we love the fact that you are so loving and patient with this guy. We would definitely suggest and maybe you're already doing this, but we would definitely suggest an examination and possibly a bolstering of your boundaries in terms of how far you go in terms of trying to support him. The reason why, mark and I would say that I mean speaking to my own experiences I, my marriage, almost ended 30 to 40 percent.

Speaker 1: 21:30

If my wife were here, she could probably give you more exact numbers, but, knowing my wife like I do, maybe 40 percent because of my addiction and the behaviors attached to it. But the other piece was it was killing her trying to support me, the way that she was Continuing to be an incessant cheerleader without boundaries, trying to consistently, without even realizing it in some cases, setting aside her pain all the time to try to build me up, keeping herself silenced to try to protect me these all were chipping away at our relationship and preventing my wife from being her, and the one thing that nobody can be in a relationship in the long term and stay happy is not be themselves Right. If a person loses the capacity to be them in a marriage, that marriage is in trouble unless there's a course correct, and so we would encourage this loving person if she's considering marrying this guy. We would just lovingly say love is incredible, but love by itself is not enough, or maybe love without the boundaries is not enough.

Speaker 2: 22:35

Unboundaried love, right, because unboundaried love, yep, love that doesn't allow the individual full authenticity, right to to speak one's truth, to stand one's ground in healthy ways you've got to be really authentic and real with yourself and say long term, if I don't hold these boundaries, is this sustainable?

Speaker 1: 22:54

and what will be the cost for me of staying? You know, if, if we continue this trend, not just to him but to me and my capacity to want to stay here, because we work with couples all the time, I'll tell you this very rarely does a marriage end in my well, very rarely do marriages end in our office at all, which is we're grateful for. But out of the ones that do end, for whatever reason, it's extremely rare for that to happen because one ends up hating the other. I've had that happen one time in my career and, honestly, those are so much easier. It's one thing if a couple separates and they divorce because one's just like, yeah, the other guy, he's an asshat, I can't do this, and that's how they really feel.

Speaker 1: 23:34

The real tragic situations, even more so than that one, is where these two people really do love each other, but they find in a very real way that the degree to which both of them are willing to go one or both, it's just not sufficient for what is needed, right, right in order to really make the changes and define the healing and so and so he's going to need to decide that right. He's going to have to ask that question that every guy asks, that I had to ask when my wife confronted me. Mark had a similar situation. You all have heard us talk about our stories on here many times. M is which is the thing that I either fear more as opposed to choose more. Is it the judgment and the possible rejection of others, or the potential for self and self acceptance, happiness and being connected in authentic ways on the other side of that potential?

Speaker 2: 24:33

Yeah, right, well, and in contrary to what so much of the culture and Hollywood and social media and all this stuff presents, you cannot bring all of this stuff to the coupleship and expect the coupleship by itself to heal and recover all of this We've got to. We must do our own independent work, thoroughly independent work, to then be able to come together to be interdependent. There is no interdependence without independent work. And I don't see this guy doing the independent work. He's just coming to the relationship hoping that it will be the thing that does it. Yep, and it can't.

Speaker 1: 25:17

Nope, if you start doing it for her. This is us speaking to this guy, that's okay. Or, mark and I started. I wish we could say we just did it for the love of recovery, but that would be nonsense, right, we started because of spouses. We didn't feel like we were worth saving, we didn't feel like we were worth doing recovery for, and most of the guys we work with that's part of the catch 22.

Speaker 1: 25:36

It's okay to come into recover for that start, but you have to. You can only love another person as much as you love yourself. And we have to ask. You got to get to that point where you ask yourself that question. You just say, you know, is the risk worth the reward, right? Am I question one? This is how Steve brain work works. Is what I'm doing Working? Yeah, because the point time my wife confronted me as much as I hated to admit it I had tried everything. But what we're talking about here, I had tried everything wiffle bats to the, to the groin, um shaming. And I I had, I had gotten rid of things like video games as a punishment for every time. I mean, I just I did all sorts of creative things. Mark has the same kind of stories.

Speaker 2: 26:20

I, I had the thing where you're, you're right, like a like a $300 check. When you're, you know you're, you're living in a poor marriage, you write a $300 check and if you look at porn again, that check goes to this charity. Yep, I had the number of $300 checks cashed. Yep.

Speaker 1: 26:38

Like quick. There's all these ways, guys, in which we try to get better, but again it's about recognizing that other things can help. But you can't make a cake without flour and you cannot find recovery without connection. You cannot.

Speaker 1: 26:52

And so we hope that, but we know this too well. We're not going to shame this guy into it. We're not going to shame this guy into it. We're not going to say you're a total jackass if you don't do it. It really is. Just comes down to the authentic question. Is that because you have to decide if that's authentic for you, right, you can't be pressured into it, but you do need to understand every consequence. Every action has a consequence, right? And if you are wanting this relationship, if you are well, not even this relationship, as awesome as this woman sounds if you are wanting any relationship of significance, be it with a romantic partner or otherwise, this is the journey we would tell you if there was another one.

Speaker 2: 27:31

Well and, for example, my wife finally had the courage to come to me and say I get that you're trying to protect yourself, keep your image going, not want anyone to know all the risks involved, but frankly, you can't have me and have that, nope. Do you want me more or do you want to hold up your image and keep on your facades and mass and go this alone, or do you want us? Which one do you want? You said I this alone or do you want us? Which one do you want? He said I. We can't do both, said I.

Speaker 2: 28:04

She, she actually said something I've said this before something really hard for me. She says and we have, we have five sons. She said I can't keep raising six boys. I need a man. Yeah, I was. I mean, I was. That was. That was a turning place the night. She said that was devastating to me, but it really did cause me to take a right-hand turn. The other thing as we close up, steve, we know that this is really tough when you're well at any age. But a new relationship as new as this one, it's exciting. You're finding all sorts of things you like about each other. The romance and all of that is just so, so engaging and in many ways, you know, connecting. But we will say that the time, the time for rose colored glasses that you look at each other through is not during this courtship phase.

Speaker 1: 28:53

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:54

That's not the time for rose colored glasses, right? You need to be raw and real with each other, as we've been talking about in D2C. You know, this is kind of the emotional brain versus the rational brain. Are you engaging in mindfulness at this point in the relationship, where you can step back and watch and observe and be honest and be authentic with each other about the realities of all of this? Because in the culture, we tend to be relationally desperate. What if I lose this one? Will there be another one for me, right? So we get kind of relationally desperate, we get irrationally assumptive. Well, this will work out. You know, we'll just go forward and it'll find a way to somehow work out, right? So we make these irrational assumptions and and just the opposite of is needed, uh, for this coupleship.

Speaker 1: 29:46

Yeah, I just want to, as we wrap up here, um, let me see here, oh gosh, one thing that we'll A couple things I want to read to you. I love that you guys are helping both addicts and partners. The interaction between both addicts and partners in the couple session is really valuable for us to hear what the other side is saying. Sometimes we don't hear it from our own spouse, but we can hear it in the chat. I love learning these new ways of dealing with the addiction and how to bring them back to our coupleship. D2c is amazing. You two have addressed so many topics and been incredibly vulnerable with the group. Being able to chat during sessions and speak with each other on Sundays is wonderful.

Speaker 1: 30:29

As the addicted partner, I have found the most value in watching conversations or sessions of the partners on partner day and couples day. It is like concentrated difficult interactions I've had with my wife, but less pressure since it is slightly removed from me, a bit less personal. Those intense repetitions help me to face my shame and be more objective so I can be better equipped and emotionally available when I have a tough conversation with my wife. The things shared by partners are so similar to my wife's experience, but because strangers are speaking, I don't feel defensive so I can hear her better. The understanding I gain in that space has been so helpful. I have gained more. My partner and I have gained more in recovery in the past month and dare to connect than in the past year. Thank you for everything you're doing than in the past year. Thank you for everything you're doing.

Speaker 1: 31:21

Those are four of 42 and counting pieces of feedback we've gotten from people in our Dare to Connect program in the last 72 hours. They will say it far better than we can If you and your partner are wanting to take recovery to the next level using an experience unlike one you've ever had before. We know there are lots of programs out there and we would never say anything bad about them, but we will tell you that dare to connect is unique in the sense that we mark and I, almost three years ago, set off on a journey to create a program that every other one we've ever found out there is not, which is a vulnerable space for healing, connection, getting real, with two addicts who've been there, done that and know how to get you out. Um, and we would say the same thing to anyone considering coming in here, as we would say to this guy, we can't make that choice to go to any length, but damn it, we will do everything we can in a group setting to take you right to the brink of doing that on your own.

Speaker 1: 32:17

If you have not tried out Dare to Connect yet, please do Daretoconnectnowcom. We have a two-week free trial. We would love to have you come on over there. As always, we so love and appreciate all of you, including this partner who sent in the submission, and all of our patrons at PBSE. You are welcome to send us submissions and we are a bit backlogged by a couple of months, but we would love to address those things briefly on a podcast. Concerns, questions, issues that you have by submitting those at pbsepodcastcom. We'd love to have those sent over to us.

Speaker 3: 32:49

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:50

Hey, thanks everybody for being with us here again today. We love and appreciate all of you. You're why we get up in the mornings to keep doing this work. We just love what we do and appreciate all of you. So we will conclude and look to pick things back up on our next episode.

Speaker 1: 33:10

Yep, absolutely. Thanks so much. You guys have a great rest of your day and we will see you next week.

Speaker 3: 33:17

Everything expressed on the PBSC podcast are the opinions of the hosts and the participants and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of an individual qualified mental health professional. If you're experiencing thoughts of suicide, self-harm or desire to harm others, please dial 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.