Now that my Sex/Porn Addiction is Out in the Open, my Betrayed Partner is Lashing Out! How do we Navigate this?!

In episode 223, Mark & Steve address a submission by a PBSE listener who is in long-term recovery from his porn and sex addiction. At the same time, after many years of gaslighting, lying and multiple layers of betrayal, his spouse is understandably and significantly struggling in the relationship. Here's how he describes the situation—

Hey guys! Recovering addict here, coming up on a year of sobriety. First off, I just want to say I take full responsibility for the complete destruction I've caused in my marriage through my gaslighting and lying about my porn and sex addiction. My wife did not sign up for this when we married and was 100% in on the relationship when I was not. Now that I'm in recovery and have disclosed to her the extent of my acting out, a deep seated hatred has set into her heart. I'm often the target of verbal abuse that she uses to hurt me as deeply as she feels hurt. Threats are another common form it takes, threats of cheating on me, getting revenge, or telling me I'm ugly or worthless. There are times that this escalates to physical abuse such as throwing things at me, spitting on me, or hitting me. She is seeking help for her betrayal trauma through a CSAT and I feel slowly her healing is beginning, but these episodes of extreme rage are difficult to navigate. Can you offer any advice? We have young children which can make it difficult to draw boundaries around stepping out of the situation when they need caring for also Thanks!

What is the Addict's Daily Part in all of this (His recovery and Her healing)?

-  What does leaning in; sitting in her pain; leading out and “loving out” look like?

-  1 year sober vs. at least a decade or more of betrayal—how does this impact the levels of patience and “grace” he should be willing to offer her?

-  How can he practice progressive skills of self-regulation; stepping back; asking, “What is under this;” LEARNING TRUE EMPATHY?

-  How can he become skilled at navigating the line between "leaning in" and "taking a break"?

-  How does he NOT go back to an old shame mindset, co-dependency and/or become a “doormat"? How can he learn to set and LOVINGLY hold "healthy" boundaries? Does he even have the right to do so?

What does a "Healthy" Approach to all of this look like for the Betrayed Partner?

-  First of all, an extra measure of self-compassion and self-patience for herself is critical. In many ways this is all new territory for her—emotionally, mentally, physically and spiritually.

-  Betrayal trauma is "in the eye of the beholder"—the thoughts, feelings, symptoms and timing are unique to each betrayed partner.

-  Seeking help that is outside of her addict partner is CRITICAL!

-  The discovery of his years of betrayal will understandably and legitimately trigger deep pain, heartbreak, anger, confusion and many other emotions. These emotions are NOT bad; nor should they be "shut down" or ignored. They should be given a voice. However, there are both healthy, toxic and at times, even abusive ways for this to happen—for her; for the relationship; and for their children. 

What is the Goal/Vision as a Couple? 

-  Start where they are, with ongoing raw, honest, transparent dialogue and sharing—but in a progressively "healthy" way.

-  Each partner must do his or her own independent recovery/healing work so that they can then come together to be "inter-dependent" and COLLABORATIVE. 

-  Remember, that is some ways, you are starting a whole new relationship; you are coming to see and know each other for the first time. You are seeking to place yourselves in the position to "choose each other and the relationship" or not. 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:08

Hey everybody. I'm Steve Moore and I'm Mark Castleman. We know the pain and heartbreak of porn and sex addiction.

Speaker 2: 1:20

And we know the triumph of breaking completely free.

Speaker 3: 1:23

Every day, we help our clients find hope and healing.

Speaker 2: 1:26

Join us in the fight to take back your life, your marriage, and be stronger than ever.

Speaker 3: 1:31

This is the PBSC podcast.

Speaker 2: 1:52

This is episode two, two, three. I like saying that two, two, three.

Speaker 1: 1:58

Kind of just rolls off the tongue. Right, it does, doesn't it?

Speaker 2: 2:02

This is. It's a kind of it's an intense title. We know that it says now that my sex slash porn addiction is out in the open, my betrayed partner is lashing out. How do we navigate this? So this comes from a submission to us by a PBS listener who's a guy in recovery. He basically says recovering addict here, coming up on a year of sobriety.

Speaker 2: 2:25

First off, I just want to say I take full responsibility for the complete destruction I've caused in my marriage through my gaslighting and lying about my porn and sex addiction. My wife did not sign up for this when we married and she was 100% in on the relationship when I was not. Now that I'm in recovery and have disclosed to her the extent of my acting out, a deep-seated hatred has set into her heart. I'm often the target of verbal abuse that she uses to hurt me as deeply as she feels hurt. Threats are another common form. It takes Threats of cheating on me, getting revenge or telling me I'm ugly or worthless. There are times that this escalates to physical abuse, such as throwing things at me, spitting on me or hitting me. She is seeking help for her betrayal trauma through a CSAT and I feel slowly her healing is beginning, but these episodes of extreme rage are difficult to navigate. Can you offer any advice? We have four young children which can make it difficult to draw boundaries around stepping out of the situation when they need caring for also.

Speaker 1: 3:38

Wow, yeah, it's definitely a heavy topic today, very, very heavy. Of course, we never tackle heavy topics, we never do no, no, we don't.

Speaker 2: 3:44

Yeah, we's definitely a heavy topic today Very, very heavy, and we're, of course, we never tackle heavy topics, we never do. No, no, we don't. Yeah, we were talking. We're going to try to move through this, because we had so much to say about this as we prepared for today that this could be like three hours. So we're going to try to be as helpful as we can, you know, as quickly as we can to get through all these parts of this. So let's jump right in.

Speaker 1: 4:07

Well, and I wanted to start off with just real quick with actually Mark on our Dare to Connect session. Today, like we do many oftentimes Right now we're tackling mindfulness and we were tackling some difficult questions that a client sent in, an addict sent in, and, as you guys know, we're able to answer, unlike on the podcast where there's a pretty big delay on answers. We get answers to people and their questions right away when they're enrolled in DTC. And I like how he started the session. He said you know I'm going to, I want you to all the kind of picture you addicts, I want you to picture taking your armor off today as we go into this discussion, we're putting it on.

Speaker 2: 4:44

Yeah, pull out your shame resilient bulletproof vest and strap it on, because we're going to talk about some hard things.

Speaker 1: 4:54

And this is going to be a hard discussion, I think, for some partners to hear and we're going to do our very best to navigate this with you today, so bear with us and buckle up and we'll hit this. The first part of this right is absolutely telling and critical, right he, there's a lot of accountability and we won't read it again for sake of time, but if you were paying attention at the beginning there, this guy really seems to, at least on paper. Right, it's really trying to take ownership and say you know, I wasn't in at the beginning, my wife was and I wasn't. I dragged her into this, you know, and this whole situation she didn't sign up for and I and I'm trying to to to make changes on my own end. And that's really all that he says about that. He doesn't really go into much else. But but if, if, if we're to take that at face value, we would definitely commend the work that is being done.

Speaker 1: 5:51

A year of sobriety is awesome. There's obviously much more work to go, but that is a great starting point. So the beginning of that is important. And he does make some important statements, right. What do those mean for a spouse? Right, when he says full impact right. What is that right? I think that's hard for a lot of addicts to even grasp. Right the full impact of being married to an addict, what that really means.

Speaker 2: 6:13

Yeah, cause I, I, you know, you hear in his words he says I own all of this. You know, I know I've done. It's been destructive. He uses the word that's destroyed our relationship. I've gaslighted, I've lied, I've done all these things in addition to acting out an addiction all these years. The thing I would invite all addicts in recovery, or you know guys thinking about being in recovery who are listening, we appreciate that. He said all those things and I do love the ownership language. You know I did this. I am completely at fault.

Speaker 2: 6:43

But do we have the ability, Do we have enough knowledge, do we have enough experience with empathy yet to know what is the full impact of all of that? Why would a spouse be lashing out like she is? Why is she so aggressive? What is this about for her? Does he truly get that and is he really leaning in with empathy? Does he understand that impact? You know, steve, you and I have a great deal of empathy for all the betrayed partners listening. We know the impact we had on our spouses. I'm sure we don't know the full impact because we're not them, but we've worked really hard to try to get in touch with what it meant when we threw them under the bus for years. And that's the first thing is I appreciate the words he says, but does he really understand, as, as he tried to do so as deeply as he possibly could?

Speaker 1: 7:37

Yeah, and there are a whole, there are a whole, all tons of different pieces to that, right, um, a lot of which just take time as we move through this process as a coupleship. And, and you know so, when it comes to this, I guess we're going to start on the addict side, right, when we have a dynamic like this between two spouses, right, a spouse is obviously feeling a lot of pain and a lot of trauma and that's on full display in a very reactive way, according to what this guy is saying. Let's do start with that side, because there is a side to that for the addict, right. What, specifically? What does you know? We talk about this on the podcast and on Dare to Connect all the time.

Speaker 1: 8:13

What does leaning in, sitting in her pain and leading out as well as loving out, what do those four things look like? Yeah, right, what does that actually mean? And there's a couple of pieces to that. I guess I'll start with the first. You know, when I think of leaning in, I think of when. Every time I hear the term leaning in, I always, you know, I'm a I'm a big analogy guy, I'm a visuals guy. I kind of picture a boat right on, on, like the open ocean and a humongous wave is coming and don't know much about sailing, but I know a few basics and one of rule. Number one is, if you are in stormy seas and there are waves coming, the worst thing you can do is turn away from the wave yes turning away from the wave is suicide.

Speaker 1: 8:57

That is basically guaranteeing that your boat is going to capsize right and that and that, and that seems counter intuitive, right? The natural response would be like oh crap, humongous waves, let's just get the crap out of here. But if you get hit broadside with those, you're at huge risk of capsizing or or worse. And so what is the solution? It's actually turning the bow of the ship into that wave right and riding through it despite the difficulty, and it's a good analogy for this leaning in concept To a point, an emphasis on to a point, and we're going to talk about what that means.

Speaker 1: 9:30

It is important that we addicts, we become acclimated to sitting in the uncomfortable with our partner.

Speaker 1: 9:36

We tend to be, by default, incredibly emotionally averse, both with our own vulnerability as well as our partner's.

Speaker 1: 9:44

The shame that we feel and the guilt that we feel amplifies that even more so.

Speaker 1: 9:48

And many of us too often create a lack of safety for our partner's wave quote unquote because, time and time again, they don't feel like they can send the wave at us ever, even little ones, because what, we're going to turn our boat away from it and capsifies every time? Yes, and they need a partner who is able to again to a point we're going to talk about that, because boundaries do come into play in here are able to lean into that heart and not immediately turn away and be able to say you know what, you're right and your anger is justified and the pain you feel is real and it makes sense. And even though I've apologized for it and maybe I've even made amends for it, that doesn't mean, simply because you've done that, that I no longer can own those things. If I need to own that again today, then so be it. You're right. You're feeling stuffed today because of stuff you didn't sign up for, and I am so sorry because that is not okay.

Speaker 2: 10:41

And, as I was and I appreciated this guy. He we don't know much about him, but he seems to indicate he's been working a good recovery program because he's been sober for a year, and that's something to be celebrated for sure. Right A year, a year sobriety I love it.

Speaker 1: 10:56

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 10:57

At the same time, you have to look at that and say how does that compare to what appears to be at least a decade of the other side of him with his partner, at least a decade of betrayal and I've been sober a year, working hard, recovery but what about the 10 plus years that my wife was in this mess? Can that lead me to higher levels of patience and giving? I call it giving her grace? So that would be something that I mean. There are times when my wife will bring up. Today, after all these years of recovery and all that we've done, she'll sometimes bring something up that happened 25 years ago, like it was yesterday. Am I going to still lean in and still show patience and love and own it, after I've owned it many times over the years? Or am I going to go to a sense of injustice and resentment and I can't believe you're bringing this crap up again after all this time right? What is my approach to that? So very, very important, very important.

Speaker 2: 12:03

And having said all that, what are the skills, steve, that you and I and all the guys we work with have to develop over time to be able to do what we're describing, practicing what we call progressive skills, and we mean progressive. This doesn't happen at once. Progressive skills of self-regulation, stepping back in the heat of the moment to being able to ask I wonder what is under this for my spouse or partner right? Learning the art of true empathy? I still practice, try to practice that on a daily basis and I'm and I'm not all the way there yet, right, but? But this is a skill set we need to engage in as guys in recovery.

Speaker 1: 12:40

Absolutely Right and this concept of leading out and loving out right. Sometimes the most loving thing that we can do is lead out and taking a break. Yes, and that is so hard and we get that. As guys who've been in this process, I mean. I've said many times on this program can you imagine being married to like me?

Speaker 1: 13:02

Everybody on this program who's listened for a while knows Steve's profile. When he gets triggered, he gets aggressive, he doesn't shut down and I'm a therapist, which means I like to work everything out. So being married to me in this situation used to be a nightmare. And can we have a break? Bullshit, we're not doing a break. I got a. I got a break right here for you in my pocket. No, we are working this out like right now. Right, like that would be my approach when I'd become triggered and it was the wrong approach, right? Sometimes the most important thing is to say I'm going to love this relationship enough to quit hurting it. We need to pause so we can come back and work on this surgically and cut out and work on the pieces that we need to. Like a surgeon would, rather than come in here with my Hulk mode and a club and just say let's just beat things into a pulp and hope that that comes out. The other side Right.

Speaker 2: 13:53

And that's part of leading out and and and if you, if you want to go into our pbsepodcastcom site and pull up the blog and do a search in all the past podcasts, look for taking a break Pretty sure you'll find something on that.

Speaker 2: 14:07

There's an art to taking a break and we, as guys in recovery, need to become really skilled at that so that we don't risk our partners feeling abandoned in the taking of a break. There's a way to come at that that you need to be very careful of Now. Having said all of that, we want to be very careful here because there's not just one person in this relationship. There's two people and understandably, we have so much empathy for where this betrayed partner's coming from and why she's lashing out. But it's very important for this addict in his healthy living and recovery path to not become a doormat in all of this. If he sacrifices his authenticity and holding healthy boundaries for himself, he runs the great risk of going right back to his addiction behaviors. So learning how to set and lovingly and I emphasize lovingly hold healthy boundaries is critical for this guy.

Speaker 1: 15:05

Absolutely. And what deepens the discussion here on that side of things is that we have these kids involved. We have four innocent civilians who, too often, unfortunately, are getting caught in the crossfire here. And not only are they getting caught in the crossfire in a conflict that is not theirs, they don't have weapons to combat it. They aren't adults, they don't have thick skin Kids. The research on this is very clear and every adult needs to be aware of this. When children sense conflict in a marriage or even with the individual parents, most, if not all children, depending on their age, biologically lack the capacity to assign responsibility for those issues to the parent. They will internalize them, they will take them on and they will assign as to some degree, as a deficit to them, which can lead to all sorts of destructive issues down the road which we won't go into for sake of time today, 30 years of an addiction.

Speaker 1: 16:13

for me, Mark was very much a perfect example of what you just described Absolutely Mark's story, if you've listened to it before. In many ways, mark's issues and addiction, they in part came from that. Yeah Right, there's a saying that many of you have heard before and again. We say this with all the compassion in the world. Because you spouses, you need to be creating that space for yourselves. What your feelings real, the pain that your feelings real. There is a huge injustice here, as this guy so eloquently put. You didn't sign up for this. Our wives, sure as hell didn't sign up for this. Brittany never sat down, you know, in front of, in front of our wedding officier, looked lovingly into my eyes and said, man, I can't wait till I get screwed over here, this is going to be awesome. No one into my eyes and said, man, I can't wait till I get screwed over here, this is going to be awesome. Nobody signed up for that right.

Speaker 2: 17:04

We always want to emphasize for all betrayed partners. There's a place for self-compassion, self-patience. This is new territory when discovery happens. This is new territory for betrayed partners emotionally, mentally, spiritually, relationally. Like holy crap, we're in brand new territory now. This is not what I signed up for. It's not who I thought I was married to. It's not right. I mean, this is blindsided.

Speaker 3: 17:30

Yes.

Speaker 2: 17:31

So all of those things are absolutely part of this. At the same time, there is a side of responsibility and accountability for betrayed partners, and we know. We know that that is hard to hear, as it even comes out of my mouth.

Speaker 1: 17:47

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 17:47

I mean.

Speaker 1: 17:48

The phrase hurt people hurt people is true. Yeah, people who are hurt hurt people often, and that's usually not intentional. I doubt very much that Mark's mom and the people involved in Mark's life growing up Mark, I'd love for you to speak about this I doubt very much that they sat down and said, hey, how can we mess up little Mark today.

Speaker 2: 18:07

No, my mom was just in crazy amounts of pain. She was abused and betrayed by multiple men and part of the way that she'd cope with that, the best she could was she raged and she was very legitimately angry and and I observed that for many, many years.

Speaker 1: 18:26

Yeah, well, and and, and, just like we would tell our addicts. Right, this is what we're going to say next, again, with all that empathy and all that, all that in place. So this is where the armor's needed, ladies. Um, reasons cannot become excuses for behavior. There are many complicated reasons why addicts got into their addiction. I mean, the reasons for me and for mark are myriad, and they were really serious issues and traumas and things that we and and we learned ways of coping with really difficult things, but that will never. Those reasons are important because they give context, but they do not diminish accountability. And the same holds true for you. Okay, you cannot afford it's.

Speaker 1: 19:08

It's so tragic when this kind of thing, when emotional or physical abuse because that is what is being described and what was sent to us Okay, we need to just call it what it is when those things enter into a relationship, regardless of the reasoning. One of the biggest tragedies among them all is that taking an approach that becomes abusive Once we cross that line of expressing pain or aggression in a healthy way into the abusive realm. And take it from this is me saying this I'm the guy who used to do this in my marriage. I was the emotional abuser in my marriage straight up, who used to do this in my marriage. I was the emotional abuser in my marriage straight up, and so I can speak to this from a real perspective. You're shooting yourself in the foot in terms of your own authenticity, because so often in expressing that pain, what were we hoping that somehow would happen? He's somehow going to get it better or understand it more and, as a result, that's somehow some way going to lead to more connection.

Speaker 1: 20:03

Yelling and screaming at my partner never led to more connection with Brittany. Emotionally abusing or attacking her which I hate that I have done never led to more connection with Brittany. Throwing things and thankfully I never physically abused Brittany but throwing things, making marks in the wall, slamming my fists on throwing things and thankfully I never physically abused Brittany but throwing things, making marks in the wall, slamming my fists on on different objects, getting really loud, slamming doors so hard that they broke this is so embarrassing to admit never helped me connect with Brittany. They only drove her further away. I was desperate for connection, but I was driving her away every time.

Speaker 2: 20:43

Well, I'm glad you said that, steve, because one of the things we want to point out for betrayed partners that's so important, and we're not saying that any part of this isn't legitimate In terms of pain, absolutely yeah, it comes from absolutely legitimate places, without question. But you'll notice what Steve is saying A betrayed partner when there is rage and lashing out and all the kinds of things that we're describing, that this person described writing in what is that betrayed partner looking for? I want you to see me. I want you to tell me that this is all going to be okay. I want you to assure me that you're not going to betray me again and own your stuff. I want all those things, but it's coming out sideways in this rage, which is the only way this partner knows how to express it.

Speaker 2: 21:49

So what is one of the parts of the betrayed partner? You must, absolutely you've got to seek outside help, help outside of your addict partner. He cannot fix this for you. He can help help outside of your addict partner. He cannot fix this for you. He can help. He can help create the environment. He can do his own work. But you've got to get outside help and thank goodness, he says that this betrayed partner is working with a CSAT now, which is awesome, but getting outside help is essential. Learning things like setting healthy boundaries to his behaviors, to your behaviors, right, what? What do those boundaries look like, um? And? And what are the immediate boundaries early in this process and how can those evolve over time? Um? Encouraging betrayed partners to become better at self-awareness and self-analysis and self-regulation what? What does all this mean, um?

Speaker 3: 22:45

Why do we?

Speaker 2: 22:46

Steve, the reason you and I say this so much to betrayed partners, who our hearts go out to. We see so many of them leaving the place of what is authentic to them into these other realms of behavior, because they're so desperate to be heard, so desperate to be protected from future hurt that they leave authentic places. And I've had women said Mark, I'm not myself, I'm raging and getting aggressive. That's not me, that's not what my true self is like. What's happened to me is that in desperation, you've become inauthentic and gone to these places.

Speaker 1: 23:26

There's a term for that, ladies, and it's what we try to safeguard you from more than almost anything else. Even betrayal from your partner, it's self betrayal.

Speaker 2: 23:33

Yeah, self betrayal.

Speaker 1: 23:35

Because now we've heaped on your own internal shame and regret and remorse. On top of all the anger, we get the frustration. But the only way forward if this marriage, if your marriage, is to move forward is there has to be accountability for those actions and a change. Okay, two wrongs are never going to make a right. You will never create connection with the venting that way. Right and and we know that in the moment it feels justified and again it is understandable and there, and you do need to find ways to vent it You'll never hear Mark and I, ever in our offices, on this podcast or in Dare to Connect, ever say hey, what's wrong with you? Quit being angry.

Speaker 2: 24:18

Yeah, just shut it down.

Speaker 1: 24:19

Just stop being angry. What's your problem? Just quit. I worked with spouses, For example. This guy said that you know, I don't know what to do. We've got the kids, when she gets in this place, what to do? Well, I've had clients who've gone through this. I'll give you an option right now.

Speaker 1: 24:32

Now, obviously, this comes with the caveat of I don't know your situation. You got to keep your kids safe and I don't know ages or anything. I've had spouses who their car becomes their best friend. I leave my daughter in the high chair for five minutes or two minutes Again, if that's safe to do. Right, I go out in the garage, I get in my car, I don't turn it on, obviously, but it's an insulated space in an insulated space and I yell, scream, thrash, do whatever I need to do in that moment to process whatever I need to process. It's not ideal, but it is epically better. Again, the kids have to be protected from this at all costs. For their benefit, for your benefit, for the family's cohesive benefit. We have to make sure that they don't become collateral damage and you don't again fall into that self-betrayal dynamic and now have more issues to work through.

Speaker 2: 25:27

Yeah, another example that I've had. I've had betrayed spouses.

Speaker 2: 25:30

I've worked with who who learned the art of cathartic journaling right when they they use journaling as a way to just throw up all these horrible feelings and rage and all of it. They just get it all out in the journaling and then we'll often talk about having like a a burning ceremony where they'll take all of it, that they've written endless reams of pages to get it out, and then they'll stick it in the barbecue and light it on fire and watch it kind of dissipate and smoke up into the air. There's just so many ways to do this that are not the destructive way that this is happening in this coupleship right now.

Speaker 1: 26:09

Absolutely. I'm thinking of other creative examples where I've had to express stuff. If you have a daily renewal partner or somebody in a recovery, somebody right, A contact person like we talk about all the time in here, a sponsor, whatever it is, send them a text that says I'm going to call your number and I don't want you to answer it, and then call, and when the voicemail comes up, you just let it fly for three minutes or whatever the crap that is.

Speaker 2: 26:31

I've done that.

Speaker 1: 26:33

You don't need to hear this personally. I just need to know that somebody is going to hear this at some point sometime. It's not going to be pretty. Can I just talk? And I mean lots of ways. Rage rooms are a thing now, at least where Mark and I are located.

Speaker 2: 26:47

Right rooms are a thing now, at least where mark and I are located right rooms.

Speaker 1: 26:49

Yeah, um, you go and you pay to smash stuff. I swear, my subconscious transmitted that idea to somebody and they stole it from me but, whatever, it is okay.

Speaker 1: 26:59

You see the point here, right, we want to maintain your authenticity. We want the, we want you to know that you are empathized with, you, are loved, your pain is real and it and it needs to be acknowledged. We just need to find a different way to do it, because the ways that that are being described in this the spitting, the yelling, the hitting not only do they present legal issues and are not only that. Are they not only that? And not only are they traumatic to the children involved? For all the reasons we've talked about the. The worst again, the worst part here is it's going to take you further away from what, underneath all that pain, what you are somehow trying to achieve, right, right.

Speaker 2: 27:37

Yeah, and if we and if we pull this all together, you know what's the goal or vision as a couple. And then again, we don't have any other details about this coupleship. But I often, when I work with my clients, I say you know, the intensity of what you're demonstrating towards each other doesn't prove that you don't love each other. It actually proves how deeply you care. If you didn't, you'd just be indifferent.

Speaker 3: 28:02

Yes.

Speaker 2: 28:03

You would just, you'd just retreat into your old, your own sides of the house or the world and and and care nothing for each other. But the intensity of the emotion going on here tells me that this betrayed spouse, that she does care, she just doesn't know how to express it in increasingly healthy ways. So so it appears that this coupleship, that they, that they want to work this out. So what does that look like? Part of it is is we you know, steve, you and I call it starting where you are, where are you right now? It's not ideal, it's kind of a big mess, but you start there and you find whatever safe environments you can to start getting raw and real and transparent and an open dialogue with each other. Again, in a safe and healthy environment, you start expressing these things.

Speaker 2: 28:52

Which, what might that be for this couple? It might be that they can't do face-to-face communication. It's just not possible, it's not safe. She can't self-regulate, he can't, you know, lean in and do what he needs to. So maybe they start dialoguing through email or written letters or whatever way they can that isn't eyeball to eyeball and then they slowly work their way. Maybe they have a therapist where the real raw communication only happens when a therapist is present.

Speaker 1: 29:24

Smoke signal, smoke signals, those work.

Speaker 2: 29:28

Whatever way, but you start someplace. You start where you are and get that dialogue flowing in a safe environment. Daily couples check-in we talk. Go Google, not Google. Go do a search on our blog for couples check-ins and you'll see a lot on how those are to happen and what they look like.

Speaker 1: 29:48

Yep, it's not about reducing the feelings, ladies.

Speaker 1: 29:51

We're not again not telling you not to feel what you feel it's learning and, to be honest, this is a whole other podcast for another time. But, believe it or not, because we talked about this before, expressing these things in a more vulnerable, raw way is going to. Not only will it not destroy the relationship or cause you damage and everyone else damage who's present. Frankly, it holds him far more accountable than the yelling I I we've talked about this on here more than once. I used to. I'd so much rather have britney be pissed at me than sad. Um, that was so much easier to handle. I could. I could do the rage anger thing all day, compared to her saying let me walk you through how this is devastating me right now.

Speaker 2: 30:31

Yes, yep, I would rather, much rather have had an angry wife than a deeply heartfelt experience.

Speaker 1: 30:38

I would just recoil like a vampire to sunlight with that vulnerability stuff. It's like oh gosh.

Speaker 2: 30:42

Horrible. Here we go, yeah, and keep in mind the other part of this that is often overlooked. We must each be doing our independent work. Whether you're a guy in recovery, your independent work. If you're a hope of coming together, then to act interdependently. The independent work must happen or the interdependence and collaboration cannot and we know that that's not just or fair or in any world. We know of something that a spouse ever intended to do. Yeah, it stinks that you're now being invited to do your independent work for something you had nothing to do with and didn't cause, but for your own health and well-being and authenticity and peace and joy going forward, even if you're not going to stay in the relationship, that independent healing work is critical, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 31:49

Absolutely All right, guys. Well, thank you so much for being here, as always. Thank you for tackling difficult discussions with us. We appreciate your vulnerability and your openness to it. Um, if you, if you like navigating tough discussions and and dialogue, this is just like the frosting on the cupcake that is dare to connect. Um, we'd love to have you come join us.

Speaker 1: 32:10

Yesterday, sunday, was, was a filled day. We had our addict support session uh 12 step based, our partner support session 12 step based, and we now have added a third session on sundays once a month. Uh, we also have a new session for q a, for our d2c academy advanced course client people, yeah, who have been in the program for over six months and have access to those new D2C Academy classes we've talked about. We continue to grow both in our depth and the content over there. Every time I swear we've got too much that we're putting into that program. We find a way to cram it fuller with something else. So, anyway, if you were like where this podcast takes you, you will love where Dare to Connect will take you, whether you have been in this for two days or two years. We have clients who are both and they frankly love what they get there. Please come check this out. Take a look at daretoconnectnowcom.

Speaker 1: 33:07

We've got two trials available there for you, if you haven't yet tried it out, come see what the excitement's about. We'd love to have you join us, yeah.

Speaker 2: 33:15

Hey, thanks for being with us, Thanks for navigating such a really tough topic. Please know that we love and care about all of you and our greatest desire is to help all of you have an easier time of it than we did, and especially that our spouses did. So you don't have to reinvent the wheel, Take care. We look forward to seeing you next time on PBSC and we'll pick things back up then. Take care everybody.

Speaker 3: 33:43

Everything expressed on the PBSC podcast are the opinions of the hosts and the participants and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. Thank you.