Can Someone Who Lived a Secret Sexual Life for 40 Years Ever be Truly Sober?

In this episode (323), we address a heartbreaking submission from a betrayed partner who discovered that her husband of over forty years had been living a secret sexual life throughout their entire marriage. After decades of pornography use, strip clubs, and paid sexual encounters—hidden behind a carefully managed public image—she now finds herself asking the question many partners face after long-term betrayal: Can someone who has lived a double life for decades ever truly change? We begin by acknowledging the deep trauma caused by this kind of discovery while also reminding partners that their integrity, devotion, and sacrifices throughout the relationship remain real and meaningful despite the deception.

We also explore several common dynamics that help explain how someone can maintain this level of secrecy for so long. Factors such as male sexual entitlement, fear of consequences, control of reputation, immature emotional coping strategies, and emotional objectification often play a role in sustaining addiction and deception. These are not excuses, but they can help both partners understand the psychological patterns that allowed the addiction to persist for so many years.

Finally, we discuss what real recovery actually requires in situations like this. True sobriety is not instant, and claims of having no urges shortly after discovery are often a red flag. Long-term healing typically involves years of work, including formal therapeutic disclosure, deep exploration of the addiction’s roots, radical honesty, and consistent accountability. While the road forward is challenging, both individual healing and relationship recovery are possible when genuine transformation takes place and trust is rebuilt through sustained action over time.

For a full transcript of this podcast in article format, go to:   Can Someone Who Lived a Secret Sexual Life for 40 Years Ever be Truly Sober?

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Hey everybody, PBSC podcast hosts Mark and Steve here with a special message about our revolutionary online recovery program for addict spouses and couples called Dare to Connect. Multiple times every week, we get messages from subscribers in the program. They're people just like you. They're trying to heal from the devastation of sex and porn addiction and betrayal trauma. And here's a few of our most recent submissions. Here's one from an addict in recovery. It says D2C has principles that everyone should utilize regardless of their circumstances. It doesn't matter your coping mechanisms, it matters that you want to work towards genuine connection with your partner. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Another testimony from an addict continues on. Dare to Connect has been far more useful to her than her degree. Wow. The way Mark and Steve apply what they've learned is always so redemptive. D2C has opened doors for my relationship that I thought would be shut forever. Mark and Steve are an incredible resource of information on the subject of sex addiction and betrayal trauma. We could not do this journey without their help.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Here's one from a partner who's been with us for nearly a year. I want you both to know that it is because of you guys and D2C that I'm able to be in the place that I am today. I will always be grateful to you both for your feedback and prompt replies to my questions. I can't even come close to putting it into words how valuable my time spent with y'all this past year has been to my life. Thank you for everything you taught me about betrayal trauma and boundaries and thinking errors and loving myself and making myself a priority and standing up for myself.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Love that submission. And then as we close out here today, guys, one more account from another addict in recovery. I wish I had a platform like this 14 years ago where I could have learned and done the hard work of recovery before I had done all this damage to myself and to my spouse. And to be candid with all of you, that's exactly why we created Dare to Connect. You know, Mark and I found ourselves in that place. You know, messages like these and the others like them, they're what Dare to Connect really is all about, guys, and why Mark and I do what we do. Whether you're an addict or a partner of an addict, and no matter where you find yourself in the recovery process, Dare to Connect can take you to the next level. Don't wait another day to catapult your recovery forward. Today is your day for change. Visit us at DareToconnectNow.com to pick up your free two-week trial of Dare to Connect today.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Hey everybody, I'm Steve Moore. And I'm Mark Castleman. We know the pain and heartbreak of porn and sex addiction.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

And we know the triumph of breaking completely free. Every day we help our clients find hope and healing. Join us in the fight to take back your life, your marriage, and be stronger than ever.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

This is the PBST Squared Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Or ever truly find recovery.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

Ever truly find recovery. This that's what she that's what the betrayed partner who wrote us in. That was that was the question she asked, which we gave it, uh we gave this podcast that title. Let me just read what she submitted. Uh and Stephen, I want to say up front, I know she feels understandably very unique in all the world. Like, how could anyone ever have possibly experienced this? Unfortunately, we're here to tell you that we've worked with many situations over the last 20 plus years where there was this length of secret sexual basements and hiding and stealthiness. And so it's not, unfortunately, not that unusual.

SPEAKER_03 5:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

Um, so here's what she submitted to us. I've never heard my type of story discussed. So I'm reaching out for help in addressing my situation. And in doing so, any others that are dealing with long-term infidelity. I will be married for more than 40 years uh coming up this year. And uh 10 weeks ago, uh I caught it sounds like he said he was he was engaging in behaviors that were right in front of her face, so it wasn't like she caught him. Uh he was really leering, leering, uh, you know, scanning, undressing, fantasizing about women in a public place. She said she'd never noticed this type of behavior from him. So when they got home, she gently approached the subject as she thought perhaps uh he knew the woman. After several days of prodding without receiving much of a response, the trickle truth started. It took about eight weeks of daily information drops, each day ending with him saying, Now you know everything. And he said that every day, of course. Turns out that her husband of over 40 years has lived a double life since they first started dating. He has always traveled for work, and so this was a relatively easy uh space for him to do these things and have a trusting wife back at home. His go-to MO was paying for sex acts in strip club private rooms. She said, I had no idea my husband went to strip clubs, and I had no idea that this was a common place for men to be able to pay for sex acts. We're talking hundreds of times over the 40 years. Also, pornography, massage partners, gambling, and she she gives a very significant amount of money that he spent. Um, we have several grown children, several grandchildren. All of our family friends, church group, and co-workers think my husband is a great guy. Throughout our marriage, I handled everything. I raised the children, worked, put on social events for his career, etc. He was always emotionally abusive, gaslighted me, and tried to humiliate me. Now all of that makes sense. Uh, he was never looking for connection. He used me and our beautiful children as cover for his secret life. The devastation I feel is unlike anything you can imagine. Can you please address the situation where someone literally steals an entire lifetime from another person? Really, really heartfelt, just wow. And like I said, I I I wish this was the only time we'd heard of this, but we've encountered this quite a number of times in our careers. Uh, we're gonna talk a little bit more about that. Um, she has a couple of specific questions that uh we had asked her for a little more detail. She says, when someone has been living a double life for like 40 years, can they ever actually be sober? Um she says he's working with a CSAT, he's in 12 step, and he claims now that he has no urges and he is not triggered at all, which makes her even more suspicious. We'll talk a little bit about that in a minute. Um, he wants to stay in our marriage, and I can't even begin to see a future where I don't keep reliving the trauma of 40 years of mental abuse, gaslighting, and lies. Can this length of abuse ever be healed? As you can imagine, there are many other horrible details that I'm leaving out, but please know that if you use my question or not, I'm thankful for the brave work you do. My husband listens to uh your podcast and finds you an invaluable resource. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Yeah, we uh I just I mean, as as common as these kinds of submissions are, it it doesn't uh make them any less sad or difficult to listen to when they do come to us. Um and we we really do feel uh for this partner. We have a lot of empathy for her and the difficult situation she is in and the fact that she is writing and seeking help. Uh I we applaud the bravery and the willingness to sit in the uncomfortable and hope that uh what we have to offer today will be will be helpful. Um you know, so many so many partners uh find themselves in a dynamic like this and when a partner has been loyal, has been kind of you know, quote unquote carrying the load in different ways in a relationship, and when the bottom falls out on something like this, we know that it can you know be especially difficult in specific ways depending on the specific circumstance. What we wanted to say, what I I what I'll what I'll say is that because she said, you know, when she said something pretty important, is there any can you please address a situation where someone literally steals an entire life? I'm I would say that to some degree, how much of your life that you allow him to quote unquote steal with this is to some degree is in your court. Please don't give all that away. And let me just elaborate on that. You probably already know this and and partners who are listening do, but sometimes it's helpful to hear it either in a different way or maybe the same way, but it's just helpful to hear from somebody else. If you came into your relationship and you made I don't want to use the term sacred, if you made sacred promises, if you made sacred commitments to your partner, and you upheld and kept those, his lack of not doing so does not compromise the sanctity the sanctity with which you showed up.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

Totally agree.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

It doesn't make it any less special, it doesn't make it any less amazing. Um now again, obviously that is this, you know, what he does and doesn't do it obviously affects the relationship and far as the relationship goes. Is it very different? Yes. But please don't allow your traumatized brain to throw the throw that sanctified baby out with the bathwater. Him not showing up does not diminish the amazingness of you doing so. So um, I know it's easier said than done to do that, but but do want to throw that out there well you know, out there as we as we kind of start off in this. Your what you have what you've put on the altar in your relationship is just as special today as it was the day before you knew this, as it was the day you said I do or made this commitment.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

So yeah, yeah. He's the one that has is caused all this great loss. He is the one who really really missed out on a lifetime. Um and we and we know that the impact on the relationship has been tremendous. But you as an individual, this partner writing in, she as an individual, is in full integrity, right? Full amazingness, her resilience, her loyalty, her faithfulness, her courage, her sacrifice, all intact. All of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

Well, we have a lot to get through today in this. There's a lot to get through.

SPEAKER_02 13:07

I I could really relate to this, and I'm gonna just being fully transparent, we're gonna talk about the reasons why in a moment. While I didn't uh I didn't act out in the ways that uh she describes about him, my my addiction was purely pornography. I kept I kept all of those those secret behaviors uh with pornography and masturbation completely hidden from my wife for uh at least 15 years. And she had no idea. Completely stealthy, completely hidden, completely secret. And so as we as we look at that, and whilst while she continued to do all the things that this this amazing woman has said, hold down the fort, raise our kids, do all the stuff. Um just partners do this every day. Just continue to do what's needed in their own integrity. One of the big questions that partners have asked us, Steve, why, why could he have done this? How is this even possible? Why do these porn and sex addicts choose to behave, choose to behave this way? And it's not only the behaviors themselves, those are enormously difficult and betraying and shattering. But then you add to the fact that the secrecy, the lying, the stealthiness, the gaslighting, the duplicity, the double life, all of that added into the mix. That's where this becomes so utterly bewildering, confusing, frustrating, crushing for these partners. So we wanted to talk for a few minutes about the why. Why do these addicts behose to behave these this way? And very important, please, please, please, as we talk about these, and this is not going to be an exhaustive list, it's just a few examples, these are not excuses. They are just explanations. If any addict chooses to weaponize what we're about to say, there it's not from our support or from our vantage point. This is just explanations to help all of us come to an understanding. How did I get here? How did we get here? But what these addicts do right now in this moment moving forward is fully on them, and none of these can be used as excuses, but they do help understanding. All right, so let's go let's go through a few of these, Steve.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Well, and there are a number here, and these aren't in any particular order. Okay, so keep that in mind. Um let's let's let's talk about the the first in the room. Uh well, this first one is a little bit gender specific. Um, and we'll talk about why male sexual entitlement. Yeah. Uh so male sexual entitlement or male entitlement as a as a bigger schema can come from lots of different sources and places. Um, we work with clients, for example, in Dare to Connect, and we know and we have listeners in most countries on in the on the globe, uh, according to our uh statistics. And many countries that we that uh where subscribers hail to from us uh come from a very strong culture, uh cultural background where uh the male uh sec side of the population uh stands in a dominant role, shall we say. Uh they tend to take the priority in different ways, ranging from government positions to even things as basic as ownership rights to um uh who has can who has more rights versus less. And that shows up in lots of different ways depending on what corner of this blue marble you inhabit. But it can also, in addition, not just from a cultural perspective, but even from a microcultural or like a family of origin perspective, male sexual entitlement can be something very much perpetuated, um, where the the spouse or the or the female gender as a whole is put into more of a secondary uh co-pilot role, um, again, with regard to rights, privileges, etc. Or even in terms of, I mean, we hate to say it this way, but in terms of just value on a general level. And when there are disparities in that value level, uh and and a man grows up in a scenario where he is in some ways, be it value-wise or otherwise, superior, and his partner is inferior, uh, and inherently it can engender a you know a whole history of it can set the it can set the the breeding ground, we should say, for justifying all sorts of behaviors in the in this in in different arenas, including and especially in the sexual realm.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

And this was very much the case for me. I mean, I grew up in the pornography production capital of the world, uh San Fernando Valley, California, and the mentoring that I received from all the the males, the male people around me, uh, you know, adults, peers, it was horrific. Uh the the the hotbed of entertainment that was there, just a whole sexualized culture. And there were things that I that I did not learn. In fact, I learned the opposite by watching the watching the men around me. So no delayed gratification, no self-sacrifice. I didn't know what it meant to be loyal, faithful, exclusive. It was a very selfish, self-centered uh considering the the phrase we talk about all the time, Steve, and and in 12 step, sex is optional.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

You know, I would have been laughed to scorn if I have dared to say that phrase where I was raised. That's impossible. It's outrageous. What are you talking about? I'll never be in a relationship where sex is optional. So it's a very male-dominated uh, you know, sexual entitlement. Women are there to service the man. That's how I was raised. And most of the guys we work with, they were raised in similar sexual entitlement cultures. It's a big part of where this comes from.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Well, and and it can, and to be fair, it can be very uh this level of this this type of programming, we won't spend much more time on it, but it can be very intrusive. I, for example, was my dad passed away at 13, and I grew up in a household of of a mom with a mom and two sisters, and grew up in in what I would consider to be a very female then powered uh family of origin, and would consider myself a feminist, but even even given those factors, uh and in the conservative culture in which I was raised, I still very much, especially years ago when I was younger, there were very much trends of well, men are on some level excused from sexual misconduct because it's sort of that boys will be boys mentality, right?

SPEAKER_02 19:40

Can't go without it, that's just what men do.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Yeah, on some level it's more, it's still not okay, but it's it's more understandable because he's a guy, you know. Um, and and as we teach and dare to connect, and as those who are longtime listeners know, we are huge believers in a few concepts in our program, and one of the big ones is reasons are not excuses, right? Um, simply because men may have more testosterone and biologically may be more, let's say, predisposed to sexual frequency and activity on a biological level in no way makes any sort of precedence for making it okay or not as bad to engage in behaviors that are betraying or not fidelitous or any of those things.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

And we've we've mentioned many times in the program the concept that men are just more sexual or enjoy sex more, desire that kind of intimacy more, is is nonsense. Women are very sexual beings and have just have the same kinds of drives and and feel the same kind of uh desire to be engaged in that in a in a long-term committed way. So to say men are sexual and women aren't, that's another one of those entitlement fallacies that's been perpetuated.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

So lots to tie in with that, but that is definitely one factor. Um, another one, and this is a biggie, uh, and we see this quite commonly, fear and control. Right? It's no secret that most addicts, because of the shame and because of these the social taboos and inherently tied social consequences tied to sexual indiscretion. Um, I mean, this of all the addictions on planet Earth that one can become involved in, I would say, at least in the culture in which we live here in the States, uh, this is the one that gives people more pause than any other. Even when you talk to very liberal crowds, uh crowds in, I mean, careers in Hollywood have been ended because of sexual indiscretion. Uh careers in Hollywood are in some ways are almost one could be argued made if you've done a few stints in rehab for drugs or alcohol. But gosh, you go into rehab for sexual infidelity or indiscretion, people of this own, they back away. I mean, so so you can imagine, especially among other, I guess you could say, standardized or more conservative cultures, the fear around uh being found out, being discovered is is tremendous. And whenever fear is present, control is like the the gretel to its hansel.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

That's exactly right, right? Because he asked about how could how could he do more than 40 years of secrecy, right? This this secret sexual basement that he was living in, and it's this fear of outcome and consequences. And now now what a partner said as we bring this up. Well, he should have thought of that before he made those choices, right? All the consequences, all the outcomes, all the all the wreckage. Well, we talk in here about what we call the funnel, the sexual funnel, and the addict brain, and what happens when addicts go into that funnel experience and the the logic centers of the brain shut down, and the pleasure, you know, reward driven center takes over, and they throw everyone and everyone they care uh anything and everyone they care about under the bus. So they don't think about outcomes and consequences in those. Moments. They they almost if they think about them, it comes after. Right? And then they try to hide it. They try to, they, they, and and she talks about in her submission, everyone else in the in our world thinks he's a great guy. And we don't know the whole story, but if it's familiar to what I attempted to do and so many we work with, we're experts at trying to control our reputations, how others see us, putting on whatever facade or mask is that we perceive as necessary to get others to respond to us as we need them to respond. To right to uphold this whole outer appearance while we're carrying on the secret double life. And we will go to great lengths to keep all that intact. Great lengths.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Yeah. Next up on the list, and again, no, no, no series of order here, but immature coping strategies that run wild. And these are the ones that we talk about oftentimes on the program, uh, justification, rationalization, uh, anything that mitigates the cognitive dissonance that one experiences where they recognize deep. I mean, we we talk about this often here. We're all wired for connection, we're all wired for commitment. Uh, traits that run counterculture to those concepts are learned, not inherited, uh, in the vast majority of cases. Well, and so to resolve that, we have to, the brain has to find a way to make it either less bad or outright okay.

SPEAKER_03 24:23

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

And so we find lots of ways to do that again through various means of justifying or or minimizing the impact or maximizing the potential if I don't do this or or whatever. We tweak the scenario to make it less bad.

SPEAKER_02 24:38

Engaging in gaslighting, we turn the tables on other people to make it like they're the ones that are at fault or or whatever. And and immature coping strategies, meaning that early on we learned when life got hard or difficult, when things were stressful, when things were awkward, embarrassing, when we were afraid of who knows what, we would we would avoid and go run to these outlets. And so they became a way of coping with life. And and and and often what when that when I say that runs wild, it becomes our default as the way to to deal with anything that that is not wanted in our lives. And then we start using it as a way to just continuously pursue pleasure. We just uh call them pleasure mongers, of which I was one. And we just we just always want to be a little boy in Neverland to just go go feel good constantly. This is how we do it, right? It's very immature coping strategies with life instead of leading life on life's terms. For sure.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

Um avoidance of consequences and accountability, right? I mean, this kind of is uh is sort of an outgrowth of some of the others that we're talking about here, right? But for various reasons, usually tied to emotional survival, uh, we do whatever we can to dodge the consequences and accountability that that that can stem from sexual infidelity or sexual misconduct uh in different ways, which also ties in with the selfishness component, right? Focusing on one's own wants, needs, fantasies, whims, all those things mattering and mattering so much that we pair that with poor coping skills. And here we have a whole heap of very selfish behavior.

unknown 26:20

Right.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

The whole world revolves around me. Uh, I remember in my in my really heavy acting, acting out days, part of my brain would say, To hell with the consequences. Yeah, I don't care about the consequences. I want I want to I want to do what I want to do right now. I want to go have this pleasure, and I'll just bet that I can avoid work around or delay the consequences anyway. And so there we go into what we call that really narrowed narrowed brain space we call the funnel.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Yeah. Yep. Well, and and and very much tied to that. I mean, it should be said, and we talk about this in other areas, because this doesn't make it okay. It simply helps maybe to better understand where a lot of this selfishness, off toxic selfishness, let's call it, uh, stems from, is because again, we we have these inner wants andor needs that we lack healthy skill sets to meet. Yep. Either we never learned them, or they were too difficult, or they were too scary for us, or you know, whatever it was. And so, but those needs have to be met. The brain, we say oftentimes, you know, you have two choices when it comes to needs within the brain. You can you can find a way to meet them, or your brain will find a way to do it for you. Um, but there really is no such thing as not meeting those in the long term, and so oftentimes again, you you can see the you can see totally see the priming of the pump for problems there. Somebody who grows up with a dysfunctional or lack of skill set around coping with life on life's terms, as 12-step teaches us, and you pair that with those needs and them not being met and the traffic jam, the emotional traffic jam that happens, something has to give.

SPEAKER_02 27:53

Yeah, yeah, exactly. You put another one here, Steve, that I thought was really relevant. Uh, you it's called emotional objectification. We turn others and we turn ourselves into a collection of body pieces and body parts and body acts and sex acts. We strip away all the humanity and the deeper meaning of others and ourselves, and and we both just simply become objects to do something to, for them to do something to us. We're just things. Yeah, big area.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

Absolutely. Um the and and and this can be a coping strategy that many develop. Um we, for example, uh, I see this and and and it's not only here, but I I've seen this trait come up in situations where the clients that I work with, for example, employ a large amount of people or run a large company, right? They they have they operate oftentimes from a business perspective. And and you have to to some degree, right? I'm looking at my company and the employees under it. To some degree, I have to look at them as a resource, right? And where do I allocate those? Obviously, that can be that can be problematic in business if taken too far because people are still people, but those rules do not apply at all in a in a marriage. Uh spouses or children or grandchildren are are not to be looked at as resources to be to be consumed, right? Emotional assets or deficits, but it is something that we do run into. It can also be a common coping strategy because of the emotional immaturity and and uh burden that oftentimes attends this addiction. I can relate to that. It's much easier to emotionally objectify people, including my wife, and to see them as assets and deficits than it is to sit in this place of experiencing and feeling the full weight of how counterculture I am running to my own inner values and how much damage I'm doing to my partner. Yeah. So yeah. So those are those are some of the potential causes, conditions, etc. Okay. So now let's let's move forward here into some of the questions uh that she asks. So, for example, can someone who has entrenched himself in all of this for roughly 40 years, give or take, ever be can they ever be truly sober, sober, and truly change? So we have some answers to that, and Mark has some things to say, and in our show notes, full transparency, he put yes, but and then he's got got some time got some things he wants to talk about.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

I mean, that is a big but. I mean, we want us to we want to be we're always positive and optimistic because we ourselves are have changed and are in the process of changing. We've worked with a lot of guys who have severe, severe deep addiction, uh, which which mine was uh coupled with a lot of uh severe mental health issues. There is a way out, there is a way through. But we need to we need to really, as as addicts, we need to face what that's actually going to take. Um, she says something here that really lit up my red flags. He claims now, then this is remember, this is after like eight or ten weeks. He could and this is 40 years, and and I would I not just he absolutely had issues before they were married, I guarantee it. So we're talking at least four decades, and now he claims he has no urges and is not triggered in any way. She says, which makes me even more suspicious, which it should. Right? This is this is this is 40 years of him rewiring his brain of deeply entrenched thought patterns, attitudes, behaviors, behaviors attached to powerful rewards. And he has developed, he developed a literal super highway of wiring for thinking and behaving this way over more than four decades. You don't turn that around in a day, a week, a year. This in fact, Patrick Carnes, kind of the godfather of sexual addiction recovery, says three to five years to get to a place where you're actually healthy and connected, right, in the way you live your life. So there's a lot of work to do here. This was a part of my recovery that I really had a hard time with because I wanted to recover according to my rules and according to my expectations. And I was the one who was convinced for actually quite a few years, I was going to be the one that discovered the sort, the shortcut to quick recovery, to rewiring the brain, to all of this being done and gone. Mark was going to be the one who discovered it. And I tried for actually quite a few years, even as a therapist, I tried. And it was a very humiliating, uh uh uh humbling experience where I had to be broken down in a lot of ways. And what it meant was I tried the shortcuts, I tried all these racehorse, flashy racehorse out of the recovery gate, and I failed over and over and over until in some ways I reached the lowest points in my life. When it finally started to hit me what this was gonna take. Because I had 30 years of deep addiction. And when I had when I finally faced what it was going to require for me to actually change all of that, it was in some ways not a pleasant realization. But it was essential for for to get to where I am today. So see, if you want to say more of what does it really take?

SPEAKER_01 33:31

Yeah, I mean, it and and that and and I definitely appreciate what Mark's saying. I don't have anything to add as far as his story goes. Mine mine mirrors much of that. Uh, but let's do look at this for in terms of of uh another question that this partner asks, because some of the answers that I put down for this will kind of tie in with what Mark is saying. So she goes on to also say he wants me to stay married, but I can't even begin to see a future where I don't keep reliving the trauma of the past 40 years of mental abuse, gaslighting, and lies. Can this length of abuse ever be healed? And I kind of inferred from that as well. Uh, can this relationship also be, you know, in the heal?

SPEAKER_02 34:13

Can this relationship make it and part of that can he ever really, really change? Because when he says he has no urges, he has no issues, he has no challenges, we're still we're still in the gaslighting phase. We're still in the place where he's not facing this. So what hope do we have?

SPEAKER_01 34:29

Well, it could be the gaslighting phase, it could also be the for lack of a better term, the scared straight phase, which isn't really being scared straight. This is this is where the barrel of consequences to the head is big enough that it's overriding addictive behavior.

SPEAKER_02 34:45

Sometimes you call the pink cloud of recovery, the as I said a minute ago, the flashy racehorse out of the gate that's racing around the track of recovery. Yeah. Hey everybody, PBSC podcast hosts Mark and Steve here with a special message about our revolutionary online recovery program for addict spouses and couples called Dare to Connect. Multiple times every week, we get messages from subscribers in the program. Uh, they're people just like you. They're trying to heal from the devastation of sex and porn addiction and betrayal trauma. And here's a few of our most recent submissions. Here's one from an addict in recovery. It says D2C has principles that everyone should utilize regardless of their circumstances. It doesn't matter your coping mechanisms, it matters that you want to work towards genuine connection with your partner.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

That's awesome. Another testimony from an addict continues on. Dare to Connect has been far more useful to her than her degree. Wow. The way Mark and Steve apply what they've learned is always so redemptive. D2C has opened doors for my relationship that I thought would be shut forever. Mark and Steve are an incredible resource of information on the subject of sex addiction and betrayal trauma. We could not do this journey without their help.

SPEAKER_02 36:04

Here's one from a partner who's been with us for nearly a year. I want you both to know that it is because of you guys and D2C that I'm able to be in the place that I am today. I will always be grateful to you both for your feedback and prompt replies to my questions. I can't even come close to putting it into words how valuable my time spent with y'all this past year has been to my life. Thank you for everything you taught me about betrayal trauma and boundaries and thinking errors and loving myself and making myself a priority and standing up for myself.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

Love that. Love that submission. And then as we close out here today, guys, one more account from another addict in recovery. I wish I had a platform like this 14 years ago where I could have learned and done the hard work of recovery before I had done all this damage to myself and to my spouse. And to be candid with all of you, that's exactly why we created Dare to Connect. You know, Mark and I found ourselves in that place. You know, messages like these and the others like them, they're what Dare to Connect really is all about, guys, and why Mark and I do what we do. Whether you're an addict or a partner of an addict, and no matter where you find yourself in the recovery process, Dare to Connect can take you to the next level. Don't wait another day to catapult your recovery forward. Today is your day for change. Visit us at DareToconnectNow.com to pick up your free two-week trial of Dare to Connect today. When it could be, but it can also just be very much fear-based. I gotta do this, I gotta white knuckle this, I gotta do whatever it takes, or else I'm gonna lose everything. Which again is a great starting point. That realization that Mark talked about is where it has to begin. But guys easily become stuck there, and that's part of the problem because that place has not been and never will be sustainable. Between Mark and I, we have tried to live in that magical place so many times we've lost count. Um, there's nothing at the bottom of that barrel, so there has to be a shift to long-term true change for the right reasons that we talk about all the time. Uh, but there are but there are answers to these questions. So individually, can this partner heal? Yes, but it will be a significant journey. We aren't gonna lie. Yeah, and there's gonna be a lot involved with that. Um, as a coupleship, also, yes. We we 100% front that, but much of the work will be on his side of the street in this regard. That's right. And and then and then we thought it would be pertinent. She didn't necessarily ask for this, but uh some of it she did, but some of it we we got a little bit more passionate. I got a little more passionate some of what's now some of these things. We wanted to give an immediate starting point so that if some of these things haven't already happened, uh, that they can happen in fairly short order because this is a pretty severe situation.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

So if he if he, for example, wanted to know what do I have to do to really start the true process of change and recovery, we're about to give you the practical in the trenches stuff. That's that if it hasn't happened, it has to. Well, and he should and he should be leading the charge on all of these if he's really serious about this.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

Yep. Um, so let's let's just go through these. So first and foremost, and I appreciate Mark reminding me of this because I launched into some other things, but immediate std testing of both partners, with the partner having documentation signed by the betraying partner, signed by the betraying partner by the betraying partner's medical professional that allows her to see the results for herself, not given through him. Absolutely. Would be would be critical. Now, I I I can almost hear this partner according to what she has said, and maybe he has said this, I don't know. Well, he hasn't had, and maybe see some of you will resonate with this. Well, well, he hasn't had any physical contact with anybody else. Well, maybe, maybe not. Um, this trickle truth process has been happen Oh, she says she okay. Yeah, yes. So, but regardless, for those who are listening, if you have heard the the the line, well, I didn't ever actually have contact with anybody. Again, maybe, maybe not. Um, trickle truth, trickle disclosure is a real thing. Uh ownership is a process that many addicts are not well acquainted with, and you're going to want to establish a firm base of physical safety before anything else. So both of you, not just him, both of you go get tested immediately.

SPEAKER_02 40:17

And he needs to sign a HIPAA release form that gives her full access to his results.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

So that he is so that she's seeing it for herself, not through not giving the story through him. Okay. You can't have safety in any if you're talking about order of operation in the brain, this partner's brain is never going to feel emotionally safe without physical safety. Physical safety trumps everything else in the brain, it overrides everything. If if you are not physically safe and you talk about like the Maslow's hierarchy of needs in the brain, if physical safety is not guaranteed or at least sufficiently provided, the brain can't even process the emotional stuff. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:55

And part of a measurement of where he's at in the in the sincerity of his recovery is how willing he is to go through this process.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

For sure. Um, and if his ego pops up, well, I'm telling you, shouldn't you believe no, she shouldn't believe you? No. Um, if if you're part if to this addict, and we we say this with all the love in the world, to to this addict or or ones who find themselves in a situation similar situation, if she is believing you at this stage, uh, she needs to have a bigger conversation with a professional. Um, no rational person would believe you at this stage, and they shouldn't. Um, they simply shouldn't. So that's a that's something that can come down the line through action, but not not at this stage. Next up on the list, a full therapeutically led formal disclosure should take place, most likely with polygraphs incorporated into the process. So uh we've talked about that in other podcasts. You there are many that we've done on formal full disclosures, but make but ensuring again, given the lack of trust and the inability to provide verification, I would be in if it was me uh as a CSAT providing this uh working with this guy, that's what I would be uh recommending.

SPEAKER_02 42:01

So and the trick trickle truthing that she describes that happened over eight or ten weeks that does not qualify as a formal disclosure.

SPEAKER_01 42:07

No, if anything, it reinforces the need for a formal disclosure. Exactly. That it it justifies the whole reason for one in the first place, because he's clearly not in a place where he is either willing or able or both to be forthcoming. Yeah, um, so that that would absolutely need to happen. Um, an examination of the partner's own authentic self paired with current wants and needs, as well as needed boundaries and consequences attached to those within the relationship will be critical if healing in this relationship is to be possible. So while he's doing his work, among the trauma work that she's going to be doing is going to be an examination of her and where she's at in her life, what the pros and cons are of being in this relationship, how well, how well do those match up with her authentic wants and needs uh now? And does she does she see potential in the relationship going forward that outweighs the potential risks of staying? I hate to make it that academic, but that is the really short, accurate answer. Um there needs to be a weighing and an authentic examination of that. Is this something that I want to do? Is it something that I can do? And is it something that it's authentic for me to do so? And that's going to take time and it's going to take some emotional distance from him. Just to state the obvious, she should be doing that work completely separate from any sort of engagement with him. That is a conversation between her, her therapist, and possibly some support people, not him. Yep, yep. Um, so that yeah, that's that's what we would say there. Mark, you want to do these next couple?

SPEAKER_02 43:36

Yeah, this other one's huge, actually, because when an at when a guy in recovery really, if he says he's fully willing, fully sincere, as we've had guys say, I'm I'm willing to do whatever it takes, right, to to get well and to save this relationship and to restore this trust, you have to understand when we have fent when we've spent 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years of dishonesty and gaslighting and deception and all the various tactics and strategies that we use, we have to in some ways learn how to quote live in honesty from scratch. We don't know how. It's become such a part of our personalities and approach, we don't even know what it means to live in integrity and to live in honesty. This is one of the biggest things that this guy is going to need to decide if he's willing to do. That's why a full formal disclosure process is essential as the first part of that. The STD test and giving her all the results. He needs to see if he's willing to go through the process to start to explore why why did he behave in these ways? Where did it come from? What does the history of deception and sexually acting out and gaslighting what what does that look like? And is he willing to dig deep to not just to own it, but to understand where it came from so that he can then share with her where it came from. He needs to, I'm telling you guys, any guys listening, one of the no, not one of the hardest part of recovery, true recovery for me, was was learning how hard it was and what it would take to to become an a man who lives in honesty and transparency. I didn't know what that was. Well I mean I don't tell really big huge lies all the time I had so many ways of hiding things that were so stealthy and subtle that becoming honest was I thought it was going to finish me off. It was so hard. It took years one of the things he's got to tackle yeah for sure.

SPEAKER_01 45:46

Well and and I mean I'll just say a little bit more about the why because I mean let's just say for sake of argument and I don't really believe it but let's say that say for sake of argument he magically and it is possible to be fair I suspect it's not but let's say that he truly doesn't have any current urges or or or or desires that still doesn't in any way mitigate the responsibility for figuring out how did I get here and why if you do not map out the why you will repeat it. You will it's it's not a it's not a question it's not a maybe it's an inevitability. It's how the brain works the brain forms patterns the brain forms reality on what it knows and it's constantly mapping and remapping how and and in what ways it conducts itself based on certain circumstances.

SPEAKER_02 46:38

And it is possible to be scared scared sober we call it if if my wife's got the the the uh you know the consequences gun to my head everything's been discovered I could white knuckle it and quote go sober for a certain period of time and I'm going to report back yep I got no triggers or urges I'm good to go.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

Well yeah I got a shotgun to your temple I'm about to pull both barrels but what happens when that sort of subsides and there's distance between that big disclosure and where we are today he's got a lot coming well and and and and he in order to avoid this in the future he has to know I mean he has to figure that out if and she that and we haven't even touched on on on her needing that because the reality is is again his a a man's word in a situation like this she she would have bigger issues if she were believing what he's saying right now. Now again that doesn't mean that he's 100% lying guaranteed but it does mean that she should be wary and we're way past the the stage of talk this needs to be very much action based. If you are truly if you're truly healing then you should have the shame resiliency to look at the uncomfortable if you're truly healing then you should have the you should have a level of mindfulness mindfulness that helps you to understand how you got here in the first place. If you're truly healing then you should be experiencing a a sense of responsibility that leads you into proactively leading into this process. If those and and I could go on with four or five more little isms like that but if you're not pursuing those things then you're not in a place where this relationship has a snowball's chance in hell of making what is what does the betrayed partner want to know?

SPEAKER_02 48:25

Who am I married to? Correct who is this guy if he's pulled the wool over my eyes for 40 years now he's asking me to stay in a relationship with someone I don't know from Adam. Well I didn't know this man.

SPEAKER_01 48:40

So well and think about the this the disparity for any addicts listening to that because sometimes when we say this to addicts they give us a look like well that's such such that's such a big ass Steve guys that's what you promised the first freaking day you said I do. I know this is not this is not it we understand it may be uncomfortable but you we need to get real here this is what it takes to be in a committed relationship. And frankly if you're if you're in any marriage ceremony that Mark or I are acquainted we're involved in a marriage ceremony in any way acquainted with what Mark and I uh are acquainted with and we're acquainted with most that's the promise that you made if you're a business if you if you are an intellectual and you're having trouble with this with this discussion and in terms of resonating with it on an emotional level you are in the world's biggest breach of contract ever.

SPEAKER_02 49:30

That's what it's like saying to someone we've been in business together for 40 years I've been hiding all of my all of my activities from you in this business now I'm asking you to continue the business contract but I'm not going to go back and tell you what's been going on the whole yeah we're good right yeah I was sure I was doing that whole embezzling thing for 40 years but I'm not anymore it's good yeah that's nonsense why would anyone ever entertain such a thing yeah I want to know who who who what were you thinking what were all the things that brought you to to choose so many horrific issues and betrayal I need to know you the good the bad and the ugly and until I know that you can't expect me to agree to continue in this contract.

SPEAKER_01 50:13

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 50:15

So guys again not to not to scare anybody but all everything we've talked about this is just to form a baseline we haven't even gone into the long-term journey here okay this is this is just ground level boilerplate stuff that has to happen if we're even going to set the set the ground to potentially be planted with a relationship okay that's that's where we are there's all sorts of commitments uh on the part of this of this addict partner of what he's willing to commit to going forward in this relationship how is the gaslighting going to stop how is he going to do things that he's never done before like leaning in and leading out like giving her emotional space hearing her voice proactively uh seeking for opportunities to meet her needs things that he's not done in 40 years you don't just flip a switch and now you're doing those things this has all got to be looked at well well and and and not only that but what are you willing to do to proactively provide verification for these things?

SPEAKER_01 51:21

Verification that's that yes like how am I going to actually show you show you these changes in a way that you that my partner can verify to their satisfaction and and and and I know when we're gonna I'm gonna say this with as much love as I can just being honest with you many guys will say well I can't prove it to her so why am I even going to go down the road you're right you can't prove it to her but it is your job to be doing everything that you can short of that in a dynamic like this to try. Is that difficult? Yes is is it is it a big ask yeah too damn bad if if this is what you're wanting if you're wanting to keep a relationship if you're wanting to see growth if you're wanting to even entertain a possibility of continuing this is the journey and I invite I invite all the guys listening to put yourself in the place of your betrayed partner.

SPEAKER_02 52:10

Absolutely if you had been gaslighted and manipulated and had the truth pulled over your eyes for all for you know for four decades how would you view what your addict partner was doing here early in recovery how would you trust that it was real how would you not think that it was just another part of a gaslighting strategy how would how would you know it's genuine and he's the he's the real McCoy this time put yourself in the place of the betrayed partner and ask you ask yourself how could she know that what can I do to be making these truly small genuine deposits into this trust account on a on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_01 52:50

Yeah yeah absolutely so we we hope that this gives a a starting point for this this coupleship I mean is this doable 100% but but is it a lot yeah it is and there there is a long journey ahead and there's a lot there's a lot that both the addict and the partner here need to figure out in terms of where does my actual authenticity lie I say I want to save this relationship but do I I say I'm going to make it top of mind but is that going to be manifested in my priorities.

SPEAKER_02 53:20

And have we taken a real look at what that's going to take like a real look.

SPEAKER_01 53:24

Yeah and is this partner is is is where she's at at this point in time in her life is she at a place where she wants to try and that and that's a very real question mark. We hope the answer is yes but it very well may not be yeah um yeah anyway we uh we love all of you we appreciate all of you if you have liked what you have heard here a smittering of of laughter a lot of accountability a little bit of swearing and some other wise entertainment banter between mark and I back and forth and if you appreciate that dialogue then you will love the Dare to connect program. Get your wanting recovery hineys in here and grab a two week free trial at Daretoconnectnow.com we'd love to have you come join us to see what all the excitement is about that's daretaconnect now.com just click on the two week free trial and we'd love to have you come come take a look uh for those who are wanting to send in uh questions to be addressed here on the program um and uh have those addressed when we can get to them usually in about four to six weeks depending uh you're welcome to go to that same website daretaconnectnow.com click on the PBSC podcast logo up at the top and we and you can send that to us uh your questions and story to us through the contact form at the bottom yeah well as always thanks for being here with us thanks for uh thanks for uh having the courage and the willingness to even participate in this at all uh greatly appreciate and and admire all of you and we'll pick up things on our next episode yeah absolutely have a great one guys everything expressed on the PVSC podcast are the opinions of the hosts and the participants and is for informational and educational purposes only this podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of an individual qualified mental health professional. If you're experiencing thoughts of suicide self-harm or a desire to harm others please dial 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.