Can I or We ever Heal from his Trickled Truths, Multiple D-Days and Ongoing Lies?!

Many betrayed partners face the heartbreaking experience of trickle truth—when pieces of the truth about sexual betrayal emerge slowly over time instead of all at once. In this episode (324), we respond to a partner who experienced an initial discovery day involving pornography and prostitution, supported her husband’s recovery efforts, and went through formal disclosure, only to later discover evidence that he had lied during that process. The result was another devastating discovery day that left her questioning whether trust or healing could ever truly be possible. We explore how repeated dishonesty compounds trauma and why each new revelation can feel even more painful than the original betrayal.

We also address several key dynamics present in situations like this, including the severe damage caused by ongoing lying, the role of hypervigilance and trauma triggers, and the importance of understanding why betrayed partners may react strongly to seemingly small behaviors, such as noticing their partner looking at other women. We further emphasize that physical aggression in a relationship is a serious safety issue that must be addressed immediately, because true intimacy and trust cannot exist in an environment where physical or emotional safety is compromised.

Finally, we discuss what must happen if a couple hopes to rebuild after multiple discovery days. Healing is possible, but only when specific conditions are present: a complete and honest disclosure process, radical transparency, deep empathy from the addict, and consistent long-term recovery work. Trust is not rebuilt through promises or apologies but through reliable patterns of trustworthy behavior over time. When both partners are fully willing to engage in this process, even relationships that have experienced profound betrayal can move toward a future that is more honest, connected, and healthy than before.

For a full transcript of this podcast in article format, go to:   Can I or We ever Heal from his Trickled Truths, Multiple D-Days and Ongoing Lies?

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Hey everybody, PBSC Podcast hosts Mark and Steve here with a special message about our revolutionary online recovery program for addict spouses and couples called Dare to Connect. Multiple times every week, we get messages from subscribers in the program. They're people just like you. They're trying to heal from the devastation of sex and porn addiction and betrayal trauma. And here's a few of our most recent submissions. Here's one from an addict in recovery. It says D2C has principles that everyone should utilize regardless of their circumstances. It doesn't matter your coping mechanisms, it matters that you want to work towards genuine connection with your partner. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_04 1:41

Another testimony from an addict continues on. Wow. The way Mark and Steve apply what they've learned is always so redemptive. D2C has opened doors for my relationship that I thought would be shut forever. Mark and Steve are an incredible resource of information on the subject of sex addiction and betrayal trauma. We could not do this journey without their help.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Here's one from a partner who's been with us for nearly a year. I want you both to know that it is because of you guys and D2C that I'm able to be in the place that I am today. I will always be grateful to you both for your feedback and prompt replies to my questions. I can't even come close to putting it into words how valuable my time spent with y'all this past year has been to my life. Thank you for everything you taught me about betrayal trauma and boundaries and thinking errors and loving myself and making myself a priority and standing up for myself.

SPEAKER_04 2:45

Love that. Love that submission. And then as we close out here today, guys, one more account from another addict in recovery. I wish I had a platform like this 14 years ago where I could have learned and done the hard work of recovery before I had done all this damage to myself and to my spouse. And to be candid with all of you, that's exactly why we created Dare to Connect. You know, Mark and I found ourselves in that place. You know, messages like these, and the others like them, they're what Dare to Connect really is all about, guys, and why Mark and I do what we do. Whether you're an addict or a partner of an addict, and no matter where you find yourself in the recovery process, Dare to Connect can take you to the next level. Don't wait another day to catapult your recovery forward. Today is your day for change. Visit us at DareToconnectNow.com to pick up your free two-week trial of Dare to Connect today.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

And I'm Mark Castleman. We know the pain and heartbreak of porn and sex addiction. And we know the triumph of breaking completely free. Every day we help our clients find hope and healing. Join us in the fight to take back your life, your marriage, and be stronger than ever. This is the PBSE Squared Podcast.

SPEAKER_04 4:43

Can I or we ever heal from his trickle truce, multiple D-days, and ongoing lies? Question mark exclamation point. Yes. Um not an uncommon topic that we talk about here. Probably one of the more bread and butter topics. And we know that every situation is a little bit different, and every situation resonates a little bit differently with the audience. And every situation, every podcast episode you hear here resonates a little bit differently depending on when you're where you're at in recovery. So it is a topic that is common, and we're happy to continue to address it as long as we can keep bringing new dimensions to the table, which we'll definitely be doing here today. So a really good, uh, really good submission to address. I'll go ahead and roll read this and then we'll we'll jump right in because there's a lot to cover here today. And this is from a partner. Hi guys, your podcast has helped me so much after my first D-day or disclosure day, for those who aren't familiar with that term, or discovery day, kind of used synonymously there. Thank you for all your work and dedication. You are most welcome. I am currently married to my betraying partner. We have only been married for two months now. We have been dating for we had been dating for three years, we had rings bought, and I knew proposal was on the way. I was divorced from an alcoholic, and my new partner was so wonderful. I thought I had found this amazing guy. Then Discovery Day happened. I learned not only was he addicted to porn and masturbation, he had been visiting prostitutes as well. His addiction was a 30 year has encompassed a 30-year span. I decided to stay with him. He immediately got into SAA, which for those who don't know is sex uh Sex Addicts Anonymous, one of many 12-step fellowships out there for sexual addiction and compulsion. Got with a CSAT, which for those who have not heard that term is a certified sexual addiction therapist. That's uh certification that I have, and started recovery. We had a blocker on his phone, and I had access to all devices. I started therapy as well. We had formal disclosure, which is something you facilitate with a therapist typically. We're inferring that that's what she did, and he passed a polygraph with the disclosure. We were married, and one month after uh and one month after marriage, one night I decided to check his phone. I found texts on his phone from years ago, so they were very old, but the content was evidence that he had lied to me, lied in his disclosure, and lied to his therapist. It felt again like a dis like a discovery day. The first discovery day was full of trickle truth. Now, once again, over a year later, more trickle truth. He swears once again that now I know everything, and he wants to do another disclosure. I know what he wants me to to know about his past. He had sexual abuse more than once in his teen years. His family history was full of being told he was not good enough. But how do I ever trust any of this again are my thoughts. He has gone physical he has gone physical in parentheses, shoved me into walls twice during fights after the second discovery day. He talks about how we both need boundaries. But my thought is, how does he have a right to boundaries? Is there actual hope when complex trauma has happened like this? Even if we heal through this, how do you ever heal from triggers when they are everywhere? He doesn't seem to understand why I get so upset when I see him glancing at another girl. Please help. This is a difficult submission. Um and I I won't lie, I'll I'll just own right out the gate. Um I always have to check myself a bit when I hear physicality gets involved because it's easy for me to just become dismissive of of of of uh a few things. And so we can talk about that in a minute, but we very much feel with this partner and uh can appreciate the difficulty of a set such a situation. Our hearts really do go out to her and and to him, because this is uh this is a real conundrum for sure.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Yeah, yeah, and and and unfortunately, this is this is not unusual. Uh it's very common for partners, betrayed partners to experience multiple disclosure discovery days, lots of trickle truthing, right? Even after formal disclosure, for have additional truths about the betrayal come into play. Stephen, I wish this was different. You know, we have done other, we have done other PBSE podcasts on why those in addiction lie, you know, why why do we become habitual liars? Why do we have a such a hard time just coming right out with the whole truth right up front? Why does there have to be all this trickling? Right? It's very unfortunate, but it's very unfortunate, but it's very much the way the addict brain works. It's very he he obviously it's been expressed here that he has trauma in his background. He suffered from sexual abuse as a teen, suffered from a family history where he was constantly uh cut down and shut down, and right. Everything that goes along with that puts someone into the place where they look at lying in many of its forms as a way to quote stay safe. And it's enormously difficult for guys in recovery to learn how to just live in truth and transparency at all costs. So we can really relate to this. Um the fact that she's feeling now the shock, the confusion, the anger, the fear can we ever heal from this? Can I ever trust him again? All of that is fully legitimate and to be expected. And in fact, she needs to be experiencing these feelings and taking this seriously because this is extremely serious. And as she said, this is the nature of complex trauma, right? Trauma on top of trauma, lies on top of lies, betrayal upon uh on top of betrayal. She has layers and layers and layers of abuse from this guy. And she's experiencing now the fallout, the symptoms, right? The the raw feelings and everything that goes along with it. So we absolutely validate her. She did she doesn't deserve this, she didn't cause this, she can't fix this. It's not her responsibility to do so. And she certainly didn't didn't expect this outcome when she said yes to him for marriage.

SPEAKER_04 11:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

So here we are.

SPEAKER_04 11:06

You know, and this is it, this is a bit of a difficult one, admittedly, to tackle because we don't have a lot of specifics about what either came out in the trickle truthing, right? And how that kind of squares with you know what was shared in the original disclosure versus what she discovered after the fact. So it the details are a little bit muddy, but we do need to talk about the reality of you know second quote unquote disclosure or discovery days and and the nature of trickle truth. Yes. This is not a new topic, but I'm gonna I'm gonna address it a way differently. I'm gonna amend what I've said in the past. I I know that in the past on this podcast, I have said, you know, that oftentimes when this happens and when when there's discovery following the rebuilding, the rebuilding, that it in many ways is like a reset to a partner. Um having navigated a couple of recent disclosures with clients and having looked at it a little bit further, I would say that that is absolutely the case in many cases, but in some cases I actually see it worse.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:10

Um when trickle and what I mean by that is when trickle truthing happens, not only are we kind of we built, built, built, and now we're back resetting for many spouses because of the increased complexity of the trauma that occurs. You actually take your partnership and your partner emotionally to a deficit level pre-original trickle truth, if that makes sense. Uh, I I think it actually compounds the damage now, would be my professional opinion. Um I it is hard to quantify to any addict listening today. This is not a harpon, this is a beg and a plead from two therapists for the love of God. Don't lie. When you go through this process, if you are at all remotely serious, you cannot lie going forward. If you undermine the honesty in recovery, I don't care what else you do, nothing else in recovery, flowers, gifts, amends, any of it, matters worth a damn unless you are willing to be honest. Your recovery will be undermined, and you will damage psychologically and emotionally your partner and your marriage more than you can comprehend.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

Do it. I couldn't agree with Steve Moore. After all the you know, us working at this for more than a couple of decades. That would be my number, number, number one rule, guideline, uh, ultimatum, manifesto, whatever you want to call it, to these guys. Stop lying. You know, Steve, I don't I I didn't understand this. Now I do a lot better because of all of the betrayed partners I've worked with, plus my relationship with my own partner. We we cannot comprehend what it takes after a partner learns that they have been betrayed, after they learn that the whole relationship they thought they had is has been one big giant lie. All the devastation, the wreckage that takes place. And now what does a what does a betrayed partner have to do to be willing to come back to the table and say, okay, I I would like to work this out. I am going to dare to trust again. I am going to dare to put my heart, maybe even just a small part of it, back on the table. Do we know what it takes for a betrayed partner to be willing to do that? And after going through all that, to be willing to do that, to dare to risk it again, and then we come in and we pile on more betrayal through our lies. Can we even fathom what that must be like for a betrayed partner? I dared to put myself out there and then here comes the hammer on me again.

SPEAKER_04 15:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

I mean, it's it's incomprehensible.

SPEAKER_04 15:09

It it really is. And and and and guys, again, we're not trying to slam, we're not shaming. No, can't you can't control how you receive this, but you are I mean, really, truly, you are so much better off not embarking on this process if you're not willing to be honest. I would agree. Do your spouse a favor and just own that. Well, I better not get serious about this until I'm ready to be honest with you. And I know that's hard to hear, but I'd rather do that than hurt you more. Because honestly, having seen the outcome of both, I can tell you that nine out of ten conservatively spouses speaking, probably all ten, would say, Yeah, if I had to choose between those two, I would choose that option.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

I mean, Steve, how how incredibly courageous and wise and and just amazing would it be if we heard an addict in early recovery say to his partner, you know, there's a there's a lot of history here that I have not revealed to you. Rather than me just jumping into this process and and saying we're good to go, there are things that I'm still struggling with about whether I'm ready to bring them out into the open and to really reveal all of this. And until I am ready to reveal all of it, we need to put a pause on this relationship.

SPEAKER_04 16:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

I mean, wow. What would that be like?

SPEAKER_04 16:28

I mean, it again, nobody ever wants to hear that in a relationship, but it's just so much, it's not that that's a good option, it's that it's so much better than the other.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Gosh, it's so yeah. I mean, that's still devastating, horrible devastating.

SPEAKER_04 16:41

Of course, absolutely, but there is so much heartache can be saved. And frankly, your relationship will have a better chance to wait until you're actually serious. I I just I see too many men rush the process of disclosure. I see too many men uh give into the fear or not take the time. It just it can't happen, gentlemen. So, anyway, we'll we'll press on, but hopefully we're in we apologize for the strong language. I'm getting a little colorful today already. We just started. Well, I try not to swear until at least halfway through a podcast.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

And here's the raw reality, Steve, that's uh you and you and I uh it's broken our hearts more than once. A betrayed partner only has so many of these in her.

SPEAKER_04 17:25

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

And how many times, Steve, have you and I worked with with betrayed partners where the addict finally gets honest, finally gets really serious about recovery, and he's finally all in? And what does a betrayed partner turn and look at us and say? I'm so sorry, but it's it's too little, too late. I don't have another one in me. Yeah. And we don't want to see any coupleships get to that place.

SPEAKER_04 17:54

100%. 100%. So I I guess I guess we've hit that as hard as we can, but we just we hope that you hear the employment and the plea, gentlemen. Please, please, please. When you embark on this process, if you can't do it honestly, just don't embark. Um anyway, okay. Well, let's talk safety because before you can do anything else here, I you know, usually oftentimes when we talk about these in these podcasts, we do approach this from the baseline of reforming trust, and we were just talking about trust pretty heavily here a second ago. But we do need to talk about safety in this specific submission for a couple of reasons. So let's just talk about the emo the elephant in the room first and foremost, the physical aggression. Okay, shoving during arguments is you know, we have in our notes that this is a serious red flag. Uh that's that's pretty kind language. Um Mark, I know has a similar policy. I can tell you as a therapist, in my in my office, I don't with rare exception, do I ever tell anyone what to do or when to separate or whatever. Physical aggression is the exception that I talk about when I say without with rare exception. If one cannot be physically safe in a relationship, from a biological, in addition to an emotional standpoint, you will not be able to cultivate trust. Nope. It's it's it's biologically not possible. Your your reptilian limbic brain is not if I'm worried if I'm gonna be put through a wall or smacked across the face or something physical is going to happen, I can't emotionally engage, even if I want to. It's not even it's not possible. You look at the research, Maslow's hierarchy of needs. If I don't, if I don't feel physical safety, nothing else matters. You that has to be addressed immediately. Whether that means a separation physically, him getting into anger management classes, both, something stronger, whatever that takes, but there is not a realm of reality in which one adult should be putting hands on another adult in an in an in an intimate relationship. Period, point blank, end of discussion.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

And I uh I was actually raised in a very violent environment where uh my mother was not safe and and I my myself and my sisters were not safe. And you could you can continue to engage with with the person with the perpetrator of the physical abuse, and we did continue to engage with stepfathers, but you know what, you know why we did? It was completely out of fear. It was completely go along to get along, shrink, disappear, get as small as you can to not incite the the the anger of this of this of this person. And I could I I we could do a whole podcast on what that does to both uh a betrayed partner and a developing child. Yeah, that yeah, there can be continued engagement, but it's nothing remotely close to anything healthy that you're trying to build here. So that's got to stop.

SPEAKER_04 20:56

Violent physical physical engagement, and and and I I'm just gonna say this not because it applies to this situation. We've run we run into on occasion even situations where it's reversed, where it's the wife or the female spouse against the male partner or the or the addict. Either one is equally intolerable. It has no place in intimate relationship. Period. Okay? Either way, I don't care how angry you are, how frustrated, how betrayed, how scared, how whatever, can't happen. And if it does, that has to be immediately corrected before you address anything else, before we even begin to move on.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

Hey everybody, PBSC podcast hosts Mark and Steve here with a special message about our revolutionary online recovery program for addict spouses and couples called Dare to Connect. Multiple times every week, we get messages from subscribers in the program. They're people just like you. They're trying to heal from the devastation of sex and porn addiction and betrayal trauma. And here's a few of our most recent submissions. Here's one from an addict in recovery. It says D2C has principles that everyone should utilize regardless of their circumstances. It doesn't matter your coping mechanisms, it matters that you want to work towards genuine connection with your partner.

SPEAKER_04 22:08

That's awesome. Another testimony from an addict continues on. Dare to Connect has been far more useful to her than her degree. Wow. The way Mark and Steve apply what they've learned is always so redemptive. D2C has opened doors for my relationship that I thought would be shut forever. Mark and Steve are an incredible resource of information on the subject of sex addiction and betrayal trauma. We could not do this journey without their help.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

Here's one from a partner who's been with us for nearly a year. I want you both to know that it is because of you guys and D2C that I'm able to be in the place that I am today. I will always be grateful to you both for your feedback and prompt replies to my questions. I can't even come close to putting it into words how valuable my Time spent with y'all this past year has been to my life. Thank you for everything you taught me about betrayal trauma and boundaries and thinking errors and loving myself and making myself a priority and standing up for myself.

SPEAKER_04 23:14

Love that submission. And then as we close out here today, guys, one more account from another addict in recovery. I wish I had a platform like this 14 years ago where I could have learned and done the hard work of recovery before I had done all this damage to myself and to my spouse. And to be candid with all of you, that's exactly why we created Dare to Connect. You know, Mark and I found ourselves in that place. You know, messages like these, and the others like them, they're what Dare to Connect really is all about, guys, and why Mark and I do what we do. Whether you're an addict or a partner of an addict, and no matter where you find yourself in the recovery process, Dare to Connect can take you to the next level. Don't wait another day to catapult your recovery forward. Today is your day for change. Visit us at DareToconnectNow.com to pick up your free two-week trial of Dare to Connect today.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Well, and I think as we're addressing this, this is why someone some might think that her what she said in her submission was was not balanced or fair when she said, he's now saying that we both need boundaries. And she said, How does he have the right to ask for boundaries here? And you can see where she's coming from because until there is basic emotional and physical safety in this relationship coming from his side, there is no discussion about rebuilding trust or rebuilding this marriage. Right? He doesn't get to put boundaries in place if he cannot even regulate himself at the basic level of her being physically and emotionally safe. I think that's what she's referring to. He wants boundaries, like we're talking about a uh a reciprocated egalitarian relationship here. He's violent, he's he's out of control.

SPEAKER_04 24:57

Well, and in and admittedly, it does context matters here, and we don't have enough context to answer this concretely because it really does depend on kind of the the circumstances involved. Just let let's let's do share and mark tell me if you disagree. Everybody has a right and needs to implement and enforce boundaries around themselves. But the but but when I said and and this goes back to many podcasts you guys have heard us do on boundaries, we don't operate, we'd like to think here at PB in PBSC and Adare to Connect, we we do boundaries the way they're meant to be done. Boundaries is probably the most discussed and least understood topic in all of therapy, at least in my opinion. It gets thrown around all the time. Boundaries have nothing to do with what another person does, they have everything to do with ensuring that my needs and or wants, depending on the boundary, are met if if the other person is unable or unwilling to.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Well, and when I brought up, I was I was saying, but we can we can understand why she said, How dare he ask for his boundaries to be met when we're not even past the place of me feeling physically or emotionally safe. Sure. You're right, Steve, right? We I think that there's some misunderstanding in her submission about what boundaries are. It could be they represent. It seems like that's probably the case.

SPEAKER_04 26:19

But but so from a personal perspective, everybody should have those. But you're but I uh completely at the same time agree with Mark. I think we're saying the same thing. From from a coupleship perspective, I mean, you're anything that doesn't address the physic physical safety and emotional safety, like Mark said, is just nothing short of putting the cart before the horse. There's there's no you're you're trying to address things that again, your brain literally can't even wrap its brain, its its head around, even if you want to, even if both partners are like, Yeah, let's just move. You can't. You literally can't. Your brain is not going to allow you to operate intimately in a space where you aren't sure something physical is going to happen to you.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Yeah, let's talk about healthy boundaries on both of our parts while I'm shoving you into walls. Can we do that?

SPEAKER_04 27:00

Yeah, that that that does not that just has no place at the table, it just doesn't. Um, so yeah, so do addicts get to have boundaries? Yes. And and like we said, there is admittedly some confusion there. Everybody gets to have boundaries, but but by the same token, and here's the other key to boundaries. I mean, I can set any boundary that I want. I I as a as a as a as a husband with my wife Brittany could say my boundary is is that I'm going to have an open marriage. I would never want to do that in a million years, but I have the right to set that boundary. I had a client do that once. I've had several. I've had several who decided that was gonna be his boundary. And I have the same discussion I'm having with you right now. Uh it's a stupid idea, and it is, but it is your right, but by the same token, what's her right to say go pound sand? That doesn't work with my boundary and to leave, right? So boundaries don't in any way trap the other party into adherence. We want to, I just want to make that clear, right? Boundaries are always an invitation because we have no control over what another person does does with them, right? They're a statement, they're a they're an they're uh they're a declaration, but they're but they are never a compelling force in a relationship.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

So you know, and I can easily see when uh, and again, we don't know the context, but I've seen this happen so many times. I used to do it in early recovery. I would set boundaries in order to do what? To put control on others, to make them do or not do certain things, and to avoid accountability on my part.

unknown 28:33

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

We're gonna have some boundaries here. And boundaries are never tools of control or avoiding accountability, right? The addict's primary responsibility right now is what? What should this guy be focusing on before all other discussions? Radical accountability, radical transparency, and very deep empathy for all of this that he's heaped upon his partner.

SPEAKER_04 28:58

Well, and I'll add one more emotional regulation.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

And emotional regulation, yes.

SPEAKER_04 29:03

I mean, I've made no bones about it on this podcast. Mark and you, you all who have been listening for a while, you know pretty well our stories. Mark tended to be on the quiet side when he was triggered. I was not. I got very emotionally aggressive in my relationship. Very emotionally aggressive. I even threw some things at the wall a couple of times. Um, never once did I get physical with Britney, thank God. And if I ever had gone to that point, I can tell you if I were to put myself in this situation, the very first thing I would be doing, if I'm at all remotely serious about this process, is I would be completely setting aside anything that doesn't involve me figuring out what's behind my anger and how to manage it. If you're serious about this relationship, you've got to get your shit figured out. I mean, there's there's just no other way to put it uh first. Whatever baggage is behind that, it and it very well could like like Mark said, he has an understandable trauma profile. Reasons are not excuses, ever. Yeah, those may be reasons, they're not excuses. It is your responsibility as a partner in an intimate relationship to figure it out and figure out what is needed for you to regulate better.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

So and then let's let's let's give an example for this for the sake of example with this. Let's say, and and I can relate to this because I I have a history of significant abuse as a kid. So I bring I bring I I bring that abuse or brought that abuse history into my marriage. Right? I I was betrayed uh growing up. I needed, I needed to have boundaries around my own emotional wants and needs, so that if, for example, my my partner was starting to scream or yell, and I felt that triggering me and triggering my old woundedness or my old childhood traumas, I need to have healthy boundaries around me as an individual to know when I'm feeling that and to draw the boundary around me that says, I need to take a break right now because I'm starting to feel all that woundedness come up in me. And I know where that's gonna lead me if I don't, if I don't hold a boundary on myself right now, and and a boundary on my partner, right? We're not going, we're not going to engage in toxic communication because I know what that will do in triggering me and probably lead me to behaviors that I and you are gonna be very sorry for. There's an example of a boundary that this guy should and could and should be setting around himself. Boundaries are to protect safety, the safety of the of the individual or individuals involved. Boundaries are never to continue secrecy.

SPEAKER_04 31:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

And I used them for that purpose for me to stay hidden, for me to stay incognito, to stay secret. I used boundaries, quote, boundaries for that all the time. Yeah, 100% agree. 100% agree.

SPEAKER_04 31:56

Well, let's let's let's talk about this. Let's let's talk about uh getting to the meat of some of this other stuff as we start to wrap up here. Time's flying, guys. Time's flying when you're having fun, right? Even on a really hard topic.

SPEAKER_02 32:07

This is so fun.

SPEAKER_04 32:08

I know. Trauma and triggers. Well, so let's talk about those for a minute. Um, you know, when the when betrayal trauma occurs on any level, one of the many common symptoms symptoms of that is what we refer to as hypervigilance, right? The brain uh recognizes a lack of safety or a safety deficit in a situation, so it increases its awareness. One of the in instant thoughts is where could I have been more aware, right? It takes the brain, the traumatized primordial brain has instincts built into it, and one of those is is I, you know, I'm going to pay closer attention, right? I'm going to, I mean, you can see this not just in people, right? I uh I was out uh looking at wildlife recently with my family on a trip, and I'll tell you what, deer, white-tailed deer are are nearby where I am. They're absolutely beautiful animals. They're really common where I live, but they're really hard to get a glimpse of because the things are so flipping hyper-vigilant. They are they hear a they hear a twig snap from like 300 yards off, and you can see a herd of them, they'll all be eating, and they all instantly Yeah, their heads pop up, their ears click up, yeah, and they are gone in two seconds, right? So hypervigilance is very common and very understandable, right? Um, it would we'd actually say that for a partner who, unless they're in a really zen state and have done some really advanced recovery work, if that isn't present at least to some degree in the beginning, that might be that might be a concern of it of itself.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

She said he he can't understand, for example, why I become hyper-vigilant or triggered when I see him glancing at other women, uh, for example, in public spaces. Yeah. I mean, she said, for example, he's been with prostitutes, he's he's had pornographies. Of course, she she feels threatened, she feels in danger. And when she notices certain behaviors in him, right, him getting to the place where he can step back and do his work to understand, wow, okay, let me let me lean in with empathy and understanding about why she would be feeling this way. He has sexual abuse in his own past. Can he not relate to how he felt or still feels around people that abused him and why he was hyper-vigilant about their behaviors or facial expressions or threatening tones or whatever it is? He can lean in with more empathy than he probably realizes on this deal.

SPEAKER_04 34:31

Well, and the reality here as well is that I mean, he just there there is an element of I think acceptance that's needed on this guy's part. I mean, is it is it difficult? Is it hard to hear or hard to see when your partner's like that? Yeah, I remember as an addict pushing back against all the trauma symptoms of my wife. Why? Because it's like my wife, whether she's intentionally or not, she's holding up a mirror to my crap.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 34:52

My partner, my partner did not come into my marriage questioning what I was doing on the computer when I when she walks into a room. I taught her that. She didn't come wired that way. When when I when I get emotionally reactive, my partner in the beginning did not like when I if I if I you know raise my voice at you know, out in public or something, even just a little bit, and I see my partner recoil a little bit, which still sometimes happens. Do I like seeing that? No. Brittany didn't come into our relationship wire that way. She learned that response out of me losing my crap 55,000 times over time.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

And then can I tell you what one of the hardest things to face was for me? I got to the place in my recovery where I would see my wife's responses and I would go, Oh my gosh, I am behaving in some ways like those who abused me. Right. And when my wife brings it up, there's a part of me that wants to resist it and reject it because it starts triggering my own past pain. And I never want to admit that I might be in some ways like those people. I would reject it outright as a self-protection. But it was something I had to face because I was mirroring and repeating some of those same kinds of behaviors with my partner.

SPEAKER_04 36:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

That's hard to hear.

SPEAKER_04 36:16

So for the partner, we would say these are completely normal, these are completely understandable. Now, how now, whether those show up as toxic or not is completely up to you and is something that you need to be regulating because we don't know anything about how she's actually showing up in response to these things.

SPEAKER_02 36:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:30

So there, and we've done many podcasts, some of them recent on that. So we'd encourage you to search our database for that and uh at Daretokonnectnow.com. You click on the PVC logo up at the top, and and there's an option for a contact form where you can send us questions, but there's also a place where you can search as well. Um, but uh, but so that's so on the partner's part, that is important, but on the addicts part, I guess well, I guess I'll just say it as one addict to another. You have two choices. You can continue to fight against that that truth and that reality, uh because of pride, ego, shame, or all of the above, or you can choose to embrace it. Continuing to fight against it and continuing to to invalidate your partner's responses and feelings is not going to get you anywhere in the realm of of reuniting, reconnecting, or rebuilding this relationship. So if you want to continue to resist, that is completely 100% your right. And we mean that. That's not a sarcastic statement, but plan on the relationship ending.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:28

Because it's that if you can't connect with the pain that you have caused and acknowledge a partner's reality and and at least you don't have to agree with it, but you do need to be able to validate it. And if that's not if you're if that's not a possibility for you, then then the relationship's in trouble.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

So yeah, well, she asked, can there actually be hope? You know, and as as we wrap up, we say absolutely there there can be, there is, because we work, we've work with people all the time in situations just pretty pretty close to this one or or worse. There's a few things that have got to be happening though, very specific conditions. She mentioned that he wants to do another disclosure. Oh man. What we have a lot to say about that, Steve. If he's really going to tackle another disclosure, and she agrees that she's even open to such a thing, he has got to do this one absolutely thorough, deep, all in, every possible part of the past brought forward carefully under the supervision of a qualified this one had better be disclosure, right? Complete and absolute transparency and honesty right out on the table.

SPEAKER_04 38:42

Well, and uh, I mean, I I and I don't I again we're lacking a lot of details here, so I don't know how that was facilitated or who it was facilitated by. I have extensive train professional training from some of the smartest people on the planet when it comes to this disclosure business. That's part of my CSAT training and ongoing training. And I can tell you right now that rule number one when it comes to disclosures is that we do disclosures for the for partners, not for addicts. That's correct. This is I and I don't mean this in a flippant way, but to the addict who's listening, if if if indeed he's the one requesting, it's not about you. This has nothing to do with whether with whether or not you want to do a disclosure. That's that's that's not at all the purpose, it's not all the intention, and frankly, it shouldn't weigh into the fact the factoring at all. We do disclosures for partners to mitigate damage, to bring back transparency, and to begin healing, not to not to lessen your guilt burden. That's not what it's for. There are other tools for that.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

So does um want this, right?

SPEAKER_04 39:40

So that's pretty pointed, but that's the the reality. So if any disc redisclosure is happening, she should be leading the charge on that. And and and a and an addict partner in this position is going to button their lip real quick about it and recognize that this is this never should be about me, and it's not about me, it's about her.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

So the other couple of things, I mean, this this guy's he needs to seek out help and uh and practice and and and engage with the support system about what it means to lean in with true empathy, true ongoing daily empathy, and what does accountability look like? He needs to dig deep on empathy and accountability. Go get the help. There's plenty of people out there to lead you and guide you about what those two things mean. And then his ongoing uh actual real all in both feed in recovery work on a daily basis. And then to be consistent. If he if she if she invites him to do another disclosure, and that's at her at her request, because that is for her, if that takes place and it all comes out on the table, the next priority is absolute, complete, consistent transparency and safety every day of the rest of your relationship.

SPEAKER_03 41:01

Absolutely. 100%.

SPEAKER_04 41:05

Um gosh, guys, we have covered a lot today. Yes, we did.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

That's a lot of topics in one podcast.

SPEAKER_04 41:11

So, yes, so is there hope here? Absolutely, but only if there is a real U-turn, I think, on his part. Again, we're just going off of her narrative, so we recognize that's just one reality among many. But as long it rarely do we see a relationship that is not reclaimable or one that cannot be better than ever, as long as both people are fully willing. But that is oftentimes the the real crux. Yeah, is the willingness.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

It can't be built on promises, it's it's built on long-term patterns of trustworthy behavior. Like my wife started to tell me, Mark, talk is cheap. Show me. Yeah, show me every day.

SPEAKER_04 41:52

So cultivating willingness. Well, where do we do that? Well, 12 steps, great, can be helpful. Therapy's great, can be helpful. If only there was a program that costs less than the cost of two therapy sessions a month for some of you, depending on where you live in the country, less than one therapy session a month. Yeah. Um, where you could do that. Guys, come on over to Dare to Connect. Um,$295 a month with a two-week free trial to come try it out without any obligation. Um, five hours of content every single week, live, interactive for addicts, partners, and couples. Over well over a hundred. I think we're approaching like 150 hours or something or more of uh premium uh advanced courses in our Dare to Connect Academy. Uh countless resources, weekly, if not every session assignments. Take your recovery to a new place. Uh your marriage, your relationship, you as an individual, we'll just say it like it is. You deserve better. You deserve better than to spin, you deserve better than to then than to flounder, you deserve better than to do what Mark and I did forever. Quit half-assing. Start whole assing. Join us in Dare to Connect. DareToconnectNow.com is where you can grab a two-week free try. We'd love to have you come join us.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

Yeah. Thanks for being here with us. Uh, as again, we love and appreciate all of you, all you're doing, all you're trying to do. Um, it's amazing. You're you're so many are heroic. We admire you. Uh here for you. And uh we'll catch you either in D2C or on our next episode.

SPEAKER_04 43:29

Awesome. Have a great one, guys. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_03 43:33

Everything expressed on the PBSC podcast are the opinions of the hosts and the participants, and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of an individual qualified mental health professional. If you're experiencing thoughts of suicide, self-harm, or a desire to harm others, please dial 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.