Why Does My Heart Keep Moving Further Away . . . Even Though He’s Finally Trying?!

Episode 325 centers on a betrayed partner who feels increasingly disconnected from her husband, even though he has recently begun making genuine recovery efforts. After ten years of repeated cycles of acting out, partial truth, gaslighting, and temporary repair, her nervous system has adapted to expect instability and harm. When full disclosure revealed that she had only known a fraction of the truth, it shattered her sense of reality and safety. As a result, her emotional distancing is not irrational—it reflects a deeper awareness that love does not equal trust or safety, and that her internal system is now prioritizing protection over connection.

We explain that what she is experiencing is a combination of delayed trauma processing and the loss of attachment safety. For years, she functioned in survival mode, unable to fully process the magnitude of the betrayal. Now, as her partner begins to show effort, her brain finally has enough space to release what has been suppressed. This can make recovery feel worse in the short term, as deeper layers of grief, anger, and pain emerge. Importantly, recent effort from the addict does not immediately create safety or rebuild trust—those are established only through consistent, lived experiences of honesty, empathy, and reliability over time.

Ultimately, healing in this relationship is possible, but only under very specific conditions. The addict must create a genuinely safe environment through full transparency and sustained behavioral change, while the partner must prioritize her own healing and boundaries. A critical part of this process is grieving the relationship she thought she had, which allows her to align with reality rather than illusion. We emphasize that her reactions are valid, her distance makes sense, and she is not broken—her heart is responding appropriately to years of harm and is guiding her toward truth, safety, and authentic healing.

For a full transcript of this podcast in article format, go to:  Why Does My Heart Keep Moving Further Away . . .  Even Though He’s Finally Trying?!

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Hey everybody, PBSC Podcast hosts Mark and Steve here with a special message about our revolutionary online recovery program for addict spouses and couples called Dare to Connect. Multiple times every week, we get messages from subscribers in the program. They're people just like you. They're trying to heal from the devastation of sex and porn addiction and betrayal trauma. And here's a few of our most recent submissions. Here's one from an addict in recovery. It says D2C has principles that everyone should utilize regardless of their circumstances. It doesn't matter your coping mechanisms, it matters that you want to work towards genuine connection with your partner. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Another testimony from an addict continues on. Wow. The way Mark and Steve apply what they've learned is always so redemptive. D2C has opened doors for my relationship that I thought would be shut forever. Mark and Steve are an incredible resource of information on the subject of sex addiction and betrayal trauma. We could not do this journey without their help.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Here's one from a partner who's been with us for nearly a year. I want you both to know that it is because of you guys and D2C that I'm able to be in the place that I am today. I will always be grateful to you both for your feedback and prompt replies to my questions. I can't even come close to putting it into words how valuable my time spent with y'all this past year has been to my life. Thank you for everything you taught me about betrayal trauma and boundaries and thinking errors and loving myself and making myself a priority and standing up for myself.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Love that. Love that submission. And then as we close out here today, guys, one more account from another addict in recovery. I wish I had a platform like this 14 years ago where I could have learned and done the hard work of recovery before I had done all this damage to myself and to my spouse. And to be candid with all of you, that's exactly why we created Dare to Connect. You know, Mark and I found ourselves in that place. You know, messages like these and the others like them, they're what Dare to Connect really is all about, guys, and why Mark and I do what we do. Whether you're an addict or a partner of an addict, and no matter where you find yourself in the recovery process, Dare to Connect can take you to the next level. Don't wait another day to catapult your recovery forward. Today is your day for change. Visit us at DareToconnectNow.com to pick up your free two-week trial of Dare to Connect today.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

Join us in the fight to take back your life, your marriage, and be stronger than ever. This is the PBSE Squared Podcast. It's really good to be with all of you today on episode 325. Why does my heart keep moving further away, even though he's finally trying? That is a really powerful title. It is. There's a lot, lot, a lot contained in that. We're going to read a submission here from a betrayed partner who wrote in to us. So let me read this and we're going to launch in. Just just hello. Thank you for taking the time to read and consider my story. We've been married for 10 years with sexually compulsive behaviors coming into the equation within four months of our marriage. So way early on. I have been through all the emotions with this throughout the years: self-blame, extreme anxiety, confusion, hurt, anger, etc. I've even developed alopecia as a result uh of all the stress. And we could should we say real quick what that is, Steve?

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Yeah, it's uh hair loss. Uh can be caused by many things, but uh it uh can be caused by extreme stress as well. So losing hair, inability to grow hair back, etc. That's crazy. Yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

Um uh let's see, she says, uh I've been I've been in therapy. She is a betrayed partner,'s been in therapy most of the time since this came out. So 10 years of therapy. Now, here's the real kicker. And I am a licensed marriage and family therapist specialized in trauma. I am so glad that she shared that because what does that tell you? Right? None of none of us are immune from the from the impact of betrayal and abuse, integrity abuse. I mean, this she's a highly skilled therapist. And look at knowledge does not inoculate. No, no, it does not. Our historical cycle is that I somehow find out he'll do therapy or groups or internet filters begrudgingly for a couple of months, then it all the crisis kind of all dies out, and then I'll be told that he is sober, yet can't promise me ongoing fidelity because he's an addict. Because he promised fidelity on our when in our in our wedding vows. And then at some point, more will come out uh with the intensity of his acting out increasing, uh, as all this has been increasing over these last 10 years. So the cycle just keeps getting worse and worse. Though I did not realize this until we did a full disclosure, uh, looks like maybe a full therapeutic disclosure a year ago, where I learned that I only knew about half of what had been going on during those years. We now have children who were conceived under lies of sobriety. And I think what she means there is she agreed to have kids with him because he was sober. Right. I bring kids into that, but oh, I'm I'm good, I'm sober. Well, that was a lie. In the last year, I have become aware that his sexual acting out, while incredibly damaging, has been less damaging than the gaslighting, the dishonesty, the blaming, the anger, and the entitlement, which to put it bluntly, have been manipulative and abusive. It feels like I was slowly and brutally murdered, but my body still has to stay and live out my life. Boy, that jumped out to us. A year ago it came out that I was done. And then he made massive attempts to repair by doing couples therapy, individual therapy, working on his patients and other things like couples retreats, though things like dishonesty have still been a part of it until just the last couple of months, or so he claims. I feel like I should be happy and grateful that he seems to be trying. And earlier in our relationship, I would have been, but my heart seems farther and farther from him every day. For example, a year ago I was saying that he was my best friend, but this area of our relationship has been has been too much. Um, right, all the lying, gaslighting, all the stuff that's come out. Uh, I don't consider us to even be friends now. So my first question is, why is this happening? I feel like there's something wrong with me since we aren't getting better now that he's finally willing to try. My second question is, I understand how trauma can work to be processed and healed when you're able to get away from the environment of the trauma. Move out of your mother's house, leave the war zone, etc. And I'm not saying that those things would be easier than what I'm going through, but I'm really struggling to figure out how to heal my trauma and our marriage while staying in the environment with this person who's caused it and causing it. Any help you can offer, uh, this completely exhausted and hopeless partner would be so greatly appreciated. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

I uh I'm not quite sure why. Because as if you're an avid l listener of the podcast, you you'll know that this this story on its face is not unique to what we discuss here. Uh one could argue this is the submissions like this are kind of the bread and butter of a porn uh betrayal sex and expert podcast, right? Yeah. Um but I I won't lie. Uh this I still don't have my finger on it, but this one really uh hit in uh in a way that just uh the empathy feels almost exponential uh for this partner. And and and maybe it's just me reading in I see some, you know, I see a submission with someone who's so well composed, um is has been trying and trying. Maybe it's the maybe it's the ten years, maybe it's the fact that uh I mean, based on what she's described here, I don't I don't know how long this couple was together before marriage, but I mean this is a relationship that was more or less almost one could argue founded in all of this.

SPEAKER_02 10:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we you and I have talked on this podcast about the abuse cycle, which she clearly describes, right? Crisis hits, he gets found out, he makes adjustments temporarily to, you know, to to manipulate the process and have the crisis pass. Now we get right back into you know normalcy or we're good, and then it starts all over again.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Yes. And it's 10 years of this. A lot of weaponization of different terms, like, well, I can't, I can't uh I can't be I can't be faithful to you because I'm an addict. Yes. And now we understand that there is there is some, I guess you could say, variance in how a person defines uh, you know, fidelity, right? For some, that may mean complete sobriety from any sort of acting out behaviors whatsoever, right? For others, that may mean, you know, acting out with other people outside of the marriage, right? There's there's a real there's some relativity there, but the the idea that somebody would take because we've used terminology like this here before, right? Technically, no at can any addict guarantee that they I mean I've had this conversation with my wife, I've probably shared it on here. Maybe that's part of why it pisses me off because I wonder if like what I've said before has been weaponized. But I mean, I could never I can never guarantee to Brittany I would never, for example, relapse in some form or fashion in my addiction again. I've been sober for 11 years. Um, but I can't guarantee that. Can I guarantee that I'm not going to just completely go off the rails and go sleep with somebody or go? Absolutely, I can. Because if I'm working a solid recovery program, and if I am even halfway engaged in pursuing my wife's heart and pursuing fidelity and cultivating mindfulness and doing all of those things, those those variances that may may be the beginnings of leading off of a off of a recovery path become very easily detectable very quickly if I'm even remotely engaged in the process.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

And so there's just the there are so many form anyway. We could talk we could talk a lot about it, but where our our hearts really go out to this this partner, we need to get to solutions.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

I could probably talk the whole half hour about I mean this is 10 years of cycles, escalation of behaviors, partial truths, full disclosure shock, gaslighting, manipulation, entitlement, and then physical manifestations, her hairs falling out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

I mean, yeah, it's a lot of stress we're talking about here is off the charts.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Well, and how how how horrible must this be that she's a therapist? Yeah, and right, a therapist should know better. A therapist should, you know, fill in the blank.

SPEAKER_03 13:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

But and this is this is profound betrayal trauma, layers upon layers upon layers of repeated injury over years and years. So there's nothing wrong with her. Her response has been complete sense with what she's lived through and living through. And this is not just his addiction. This is this is full-on betrayal trauma. This is full-on integrity abuse. Uh, this is secret sexual basement. This is this is all of this stuff piled into this scenario. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

And and yeah, she says, she says, you know, it feels so much of this is felt abusive and manipulative. It it is abusive and manipulative. And and we don't want to just want to normalize. I I I frankly, I would be concerned for a partner who, in a situation like this, was more trusting than she is. Um, we're our we form reality based on the experiences that we have. And one thing I just want to throw this out there, this is inferring a little bit, but hopefully this resonates with someone listening to the podcast today. Love does not equate to connection. No, love does not equate to trust, love does not equate to safety. It is possible to love and care about someone a great deal and not be able to trust them as far as you can throw them, not feel safe enough to be yourself with them. And and sometimes I think that that's part of the conundrum that presents to partners. Again, that's reading in a little bit, but maybe that's part of the puzzlement for her. You know, I feel all these warm feelings towards this person, right? Why am I struggling so much? Because your heart is saying, I care, and your brain is saying, for the love of God, don't do this. Yeah, it isn't safe. None of this is matching up. We care, but as as one spouse put it, we've said this before spouses in this dynamic find themselves trying to hug a porcupine over and over again, and they keep going to hug because they love it, it's adorable, it's cuddly, they want it. But they are they blood is just running down their front because they have spines stoking out everywhere. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, so very normal.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

And this is and and here's the thing: this is not just acting out, and she says it well. As much as his his acting out and infidelity is hurt, the more hurt has been coming from the gaslighting, manipulation, you know, lying, integrity abuse, et cetera, et cetera. Acting out equals a definite injury and wounding, but ongoing deception and manipulation, that's an ongoing trauma environment. Yeah. That he's creating and that she's living in. Right. So her nervous system isn't reacting to the past. Like she said, well, he's he's doing, he's actually trying now. Why do I keep going to the past? Her nervous system is reacting to a pattern that has never truly stopped.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

No, right? And and I don't want to infer about this addict, but if he's anything like addicts we worked with before, he might be saying there, sitting there to one degree or another, saying, Well, what the hell? It's been two months. I know. Two months. Two months after ten years. And not only that, I mean, to put it in context, so two months on the back of ten years, it doesn't sound like there's really verified proof, and it doesn't really sound like the the efforts have been solid. And on top of that, as one spouse put it in my office, she said it so well. I mean, what do we what do we addicts expect after two months? A gold star? The way that was one spouse put it was what am I supposed to say to him, Steve? Thanks so much for keeping the very basic bare minimum requirements of what you agreed to in the first place for two months. Yep. What am I what do you want? A medal? Like, are you wanting an award? Like, you're not even still choosing me. You're you're expecting me to be ecstatic about the absence of hurt. Hey, I I'm not even championing you, I'm just I just quit hitting you. Isn't that awesome? Yeah, guys, we think about it in that way. Boy, does that put it into perspective?

SPEAKER_02 17:50

And we applaud all guys in recovery for for getting into recovery and for trust. Absolutely. We absolutely do, but there needs to be a pers a perception and perspective here about you know what's gone on on which side of the street. Absolutely. Absolutely. I I she asked the question, so he's finally trying. Why is why is my heart moving farther and farther away from him? And she says a year ago, I said I told him he was my best friend. Now I don't consider him to be a friend. I love him, but he's not my friend. That's that dual reality you just referred to.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Right. And what we're really talking about here, this happens with a lot of betrayed partners. It's what we would call delayed trauma processing, where the trauma doesn't fully, fully manifest all of its damage and symptoms and impact all at once. It often comes out over time. And she's describing, right, this delayed trauma processing plus total loss of attachment safety. Yeah. So what so how does that impact a partner? Well, she describes their early years. What do we what do we find a lot of uh betrayed partners in survival mode? They just put their heads down, they hunker down, they're raising kids, they still have hope. They even will will tend to minimize their addicts' behavior. They're as she said, clinging to my quote, best friend. Then she says, full disclosure comes and reality finally starts to land. And what does she say? I only knew half. Half at best. Now what does her nervous system say? Holy crap, this person is completely and totally unsafe. Now what? 100% right? This isn't her regressing into all this old trauma. This is clarity, and now her system's recalibrating based on that truth. And you can't have love and friendship thrive when you don't have safety, you don't have consistency, you don't have integrity over time, you're not trusting and verifying. So it's not just her heart breaking, her heart's finally telling her the truth. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Like, whoa, you know, well, and I mean, there's there's there's something else that should be said here about this delayed component because this I've I've watched this happen over time with many clients over the years, and even have felt some of it in my own trauma healing as well. Because there is this delayed process that Mark is talking about, right? Where it takes the brain a while to wrap itself around the breadth, right, of what's been going on. And uh, as many partners can attest, when you start your own recovery in this process, it sometimes gets harder because knowledge is power, but it does come both ways. Yeah. Right? I mean, I knew I was hurt before, but I didn't know how deeply, right? Is something we commonly hear.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

More truth is coming out and more stuff is being revealed.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Yes, that's happening as well. But here's the other piece, and we need to talk about this because this is really important, and I've seen this play out. There's also a safety capacity in the brain where the brain can only process and handle so much. I'm picturing a mom here with two young with multiple young kids, right? Trying to navigate. He's emotionally absent, she's trying to keep it together. I have seen it play out over time where in the short term, recovery for a coupleship oftentimes found feels counterintuitive. And I have had couples very upset with me in my office because one, two, three months into therapy, things are worse. Yeah. And they feel way worse. And one of the dynamics at play that is hard for both addicts and partners to wrap their heads around is that it's not that it's actually worse, but we you've been both working on this. She is starting to feel safer. And so her brain is starting to let down its guard. And part of that process means seeing stuff that the brain was preventing you from seeing because it was just trying to survive.

SPEAKER_02 21:53

Feeling things that that your nervous system would not let you feel better.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

It's been deliberately blocking it, it can only handle so much. Correct. And so it couldn't even intake that other stuff. And so what happens? He starts doing the work, he starts really getting invested, and and all of a sudden he starts to feel safe. And her brain, for the first time, that wall starts to come down, but what but what she doesn't realize is that the dam is full behind that wall. Yep, yep. And that water's just been sitting there waiting to come out forever.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

And she says he's finally trying. Why am I not getting better? Yeah. Right? Recent efforts on the part of an addict do not equal immediate healing for betrayed partners. No.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

And like we just talked about, they can actually equate in short term, again, emphasis on short term, to actual regression or at least regression in symptomology.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Right? Healing's happening, but it feels and looks worse.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

It does because he's in his early can we just state it, early, early, early recovery effort. She is now in what we could call, after 10 years, late stage trauma. Trauma awakening.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

Yeah. Right? That's a good way to put it.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

Yeah. It's and there's just such some important distinctions here. While we applaud his effort, we and we always do, whatever gets the guy's butt in the chair to start taking recovery seriously, awesome. Absolutely. But guys, listen, please, please realize effort doesn't equal trustworthiness. No. Trying on your part doesn't automatically equal safety on her part. Months of effort does not equate to 10 years of abuse.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

Yep, it's it's there's a there's a lot going on here, and it it he's gonna have to really take a step back if he's serious about this process, and she to a degree, that intentions are great, but any spouse to this point, long words quit meaning much a long time ago for the spouse. We're we're certain of that. Yes, and it has to if this is a question of you it there has to be a consistency of displayed effort over time. And I'll I'll just be honest, she's not asking about this, but I I'm picking up from this, and just what we know about the guys that we work with, for example, in our Dare to Connect program for addict spouses and couples. What you find out, uh oftentimes what many guys find out is that they really have no clue what a healthy relationship even looks like. There's there's that bigger battle there as well for uh on all about myself for that. I I was so bad at loving myself that I got into my marriage loving Britney as much as I humanly could. I 100% meant it when I said I do, 100%. I wasn't pulling the wool over her eyes, I wasn't deceiving her at all. But the problem is my best way of loving at that point in time was poor because I didn't even love myself. I was offering my best, but my best was was was inadequate, right? It wasn't enough. And when we go through this recovery process, this is so much more than stopping the harm. It's learning how to choose another person and yourself. And for many of the guys we work with, that is that makes stopping at addiction behavior look like a cakewalk. Because it's one thing to to to inoculate bad behavior. Learning how to really choose your marriage, to choose yourself, to choose a relationship is a whole journey of a lifetime. And we and so there's a lot more there for him to be doing.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Yeah, and Dare to Connect, we're focusing right now on all the solutions to addiction recovery. One of the things we talked about in depth today in our in our recovering addicts session was it's not enough to just stop certain behaviors. That's good. It is a very crucial starting place. But if if all you do is just stop certain behaviors, you never start to go deep to to introduce and invite the healthy behaviors, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:56

The shifting into those things that not only that, but what you're seeing here is exactly what we talked about, Mark, this morning on the attic session. If you don't just if it's not about stopping bad behaviors, it's about choosing good. Because if you don't choose good, you're gonna go back. Bad just comes back. You're going to go back, just like what you're seeing here. Now, that's not the only reason why he was doing that, we're sure, but it's part of it. Yeah, okay. I want to stop acting out, but what am I doing to actually caretake for myself? What am I actually doing to address the needs behind my acting out in the first place? If I'm not addressing those things, I will go back. It's just a it's just a question of when. It's no question, you can't sit there with the brain just being empty space, right?

SPEAKER_02 26:36

You meet your brain's needs or it will meet them for you. Talked about that in in depth today. Yep. You those are your choices? Yep. You either meet the real deep needs or the brain will do it for you.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Now she's in the case of fanatic, that's scary because it's really good at doing that.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

You know, it is. Yeah, it can it will do it for me all day long.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

It will, it knows it's really good at doing that.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

Now she asks a really critical question that we hear a lot Can I heal while staying in this relationship? That's a good question. How is that possible? We would say yes, and then we would put a in big giant letters, but yes, but only under very specific conditions if there's any hope for her healing while staying in this relationship. Condition number one the environment of this relationship has to change, like actually change. And what are some of the things that have to be taking place coming from his side? Full, complete, total honesty at all costs, not mostly honest, not honest about some things, full transparency on this guy's part. Well, and proactive honesty, proactive, offering it up, bringing it to the table, not waiting to be asked or caught or reminded or pressured, him leading out, him coming forward. How much time do we spend in our Dare to Connect program teaching guys how to do that, Steve?

SPEAKER_01 28:04

A lot.

SPEAKER_02 28:05

Oh my gosh. And it's so hard to learn, but so so critical. And and coming out of this place with our old, our old coping strategies, defensiveness, gaslighting, all the right, rationalization, justification, minimization, all these tools that we've used over so many years. True recovery and healthy living is learning how to recognize those, own them, and begin to take the actual, real in-the-trenches actions to begin shifting out of them. He has got to, he has to create the environment where she can heal. Only she can heal, but he has to create the environment where that can take place. Yeah. Hey everybody, PBSC podcast hosts Mark and Steve here with a special message about our revolutionary online recovery program for addict spouses and couples called Dare to Connect. Multiple times every week, we get messages from subscribers in the program. They're people just like you. They're trying to heal from the devastation of sex and porn addiction and betrayal trauma. And here's a few of our most recent submissions. Here's one from an addict in recovery. It says D2C has principles that everyone should utilize regardless of their circumstances. It doesn't matter your coping mechanisms, it matters that you want to work towards genuine connection with your partner. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Another testimony from an addict continues on My wife is just starting out in training as a licensed therapist. Dare to Connect has been far more useful to her than her degree. Wow. The way Mark and Steve apply what they've learned is always so redemptive. D2C has opened doors for my relationship that I thought would be shut forever. Mark and Steve are an incredible resource of information on the subject of sex addiction and betrayal trauma. We could not do this journey without their help.

SPEAKER_02 29:59

Here's one from a partner who's been with us for nearly a year. I want you both to know that it is because of you guys and D2C that I'm able to be in the place that I am today. I will always be grateful to you both for your feedback and prompt replies to my questions. I can't even come close to putting it into words how valuable my time spent with y'all this past year has been to my life. Thank you for everything you taught me about betrayal trauma and boundaries and thinking errors and loving myself and making myself a priority and standing up for myself.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Love that submission. And then as we close out here today, guys, one more account from another addict in recovery. I wish I had a platform like this 14 years ago where I could have learned and done the hard work of recovery before I had done all this damage to myself and to my spouse. And to be candid with all of you, that's exactly why we created Dare to Connect. You know, Mark and I found ourselves in that place. You know, messages like these and the others like them, they're what Dare to Connect really is all about, guys, and why Mark and I do what we do. Whether you're an addict or a partner of an addict, and no matter where you find yourself in the recovery process, Dare to Connect can take you to the next level. Don't wait another day to catapult your recovery forward. Today is your day for change. Visit us at DareToconnectnow.com to pick up your free two-week trial of Dare to Connect today. Well, and I I'll just this is this is kind of a nugget for the addicts listening. Because this is something I would have needed to have heard years ago. When we see you guys caught in this cycle of I I call it I call it just emotional damage control, right? When the pressure on the race relationships high, so goes the effort. When the when the pressure dies down, so do the effort, right? What's gonna happen? He has to quit trying to make her feel better, and he needs to start choosing himself in healthy ways. If he can start choosing himself in healthy ways, frankly, a lot of a lot of the caretaking for her is going to start taking care of itself. Not all of it, but that's half the problem, is he's still engaged, he is still too overly engaged in this process for her. Now that sounds really valiant, and that is where we all start. And and like Mark said, we applaud that. But you have to quickly start moving towards I am here to change how I operate and to change how I live, not to simply try to make her feel better or to not be hurting.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

What is what what she's describing, he's engaging in reactive so-called recovery. A hundred percent. She finally she gets to a crisis, he reacts. Yes, right? The crisis passes, he goes back into old crap until the next crisis comes. It's emotional firefighting. That's exactly what it is. Yeah. And and the other condition is here, she can't, she can't, she can no longer accept continuing to live in active trauma. No, at all. No, if deception is ongoing, healing stalls and or cannot take place at all, right? Her body cannot heal in unpredictability.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

I mean, if you're talking about this, this kind of physical symptomology with the alopecia and things. I mean, we're we're nobody's therapist on this program. We're this is a this is obviously a podcast. It's not this is not a therapy office, but this would be a situation where if I'm navigating this as a as as the therapist in the room, separation is definitely on the table right now. Uh, and not in any sort of punitive way, or because we never do it for those reasons, but in terms of she may just she may need physical distance, at least in the short term, to be able to get some handle on this while he gets a handle on developing out that trust some more. Yeah. I mean, her, you know, if we look at the latest research from Bessel Vanderkook and The Body Keeps the Score, great book, by the way. Heavy read, if you're looking for something about drama, that'll you'll read about a page of that and you'll feel like you got to ponder on it for about six hours. But um, really good, good information there. But I mean, her body is clearly telling a story here, and that story is that this is not negotiable, this is not navigable the way you're gonna be able to do it.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

Oh, and this is what she's running into. It's this kind of this felt safety versus logical safety. Yes, well, my brain sees effort, but my body doesn't feel safe yet. Yeah, that's because real trauma healing is not just intellectual, it's experiential. Right? It's consistency over time, it's his transparency without needing to be prompted all the time. It's it's his truly leaning in with empathy without defensiveness, right? Trust is rebuilt in the nervous system, not in conversations or right, early efforts. Trust is rebuilt in your very in the very way that your whole nervous system is put together.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

And again, how is that going to happen? It's gonna be experiential. Yeah, she has to feel it. Yep. She can't just she, I mean, the just the reality too, a guy who finds himself in this situation as well as this guy if he's listening. Your talk quit carrying weight so long ago, it's not even funny. In fact, talk, if you're if this spouse is anything like Mark R. I spouses when they were at this point, talk actually made it worse. I don't want to hear one more thing from you about how you're gonna change or it'll happen tomorrow, or just one more blob. I don't want to hear it. Yeah. I want to I have to see it. Make it happen, and and we'll go from there. That's that's it.

SPEAKER_02 35:35

Yeah, my wife started saying, talk is cheap, show me and show me consistently. Yeah. Well, as we wrap up, you know, there's a there's another part here. Uh I know this is so hard for betrayed partners to hear, but there uh there is a grieving process here, and I don't know if she's been through it yet, or maybe she's starting into it, but it's and this is Steve, this is one of the most heart you and I talk about this all the time. This just breaks our hearts into into pieces. Grieving the relationship that she thought she had. Yeah, even even when she knew a lot that he was acting out over 10 years, she said, I came to find out I only knew half of it at best. Grieving the relationship she thought she had, the loss of her best friend, the loss of their shared reality. Grieving is a big part of this for her. It's not a sign of failure, it's a sign of leaning into what is. I heard a great statement recently. You know, we talk about the stages of grief, which are very important. But then this person said it's not just the stages of grief, it's the stations of transformation. I love that phrase. The stations of transformation. Yeah, there's a lot for her to learn and to grow and to evolve and to transform. The hard part about that is embracing the reality of what has gone on and what this is now.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Yes. Yeah. I mean, if you're going to build this, this is to the addict and to this partner, if you're going to really rebuild this relationship, step number one, for her at least, is going to be coming to a place of acceptance and embracing the relationship as it is. And I want to be really quick to say acceptance doesn't mean you're okay with it. It means you you embrace reality as it is. It's not cosigning on it, it's not saying, well, that that's fine. It has nothing to do with that, it simply means recognizing the situation for what it is. And on his part, how is she ever going to be able to do that? Well, we already talked about. You have to start being consistent, you have to be transparent, and the lying, the deception, and the defensiveness has got to go the way of the dodo.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

Yeah, yeah. She's she's she's grounding in reality, not just what's been going on recently, but the but this whole track record. She's I'm sure as a therapist, she knows a lot about boundaries, right? What is required for her if she's gonna stick around for this thing? What is no longer acceptable? How does she how does she form, as we talk about, boundaries around her authentic wants and needs? Not to force him to do something or not do something, but for her. And her healing is now the priority. Trauma-focused work, even especially for a therapist, right? The the body, somatic, nervous system regulation, support outside this marriage. And I love this. You and I made notes on this last part, giving herself permission to not feel grateful for his recent effort, to not feel connected, to not just bounce back. It's okay to not have those things at this point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

100%. Well, we have we have all the hope for this this partner and this this addict in the world, as long as he can make some sincere change. Um, but we we just want to extend the the reminder to every partner out there. You have choices, uh, you have rights, and you have an obligation to advocate for yourself in a relationship. No, you if you if if being in a relationship requires you to stop being you to make it work, the cost is too high. Um can this marriage heal? I 100% believe it can. I believe it can too. But is it going to take a hundred percent change on his part, like a 180-degree shift? Yes. And is it going to mean her advocating more for herself? Probably. Um, and finding ways to make sure that that her needs are met and that uh she is she is uh taking care of herself and and being there for her kids first. You can't so many partners. I I remember uh about a year ago I was meeting with a client. I'm a big analogy guy, as you as you guys mostly know, and we were talking about how she has tried to how how many times she tried to rescue him. She was in a real rescuing dynamic in the relationship. And I said, let's just let's just pretend like we're on the we're looking over the edge of a cruise ship, right? And he's down there in the water, and he says that he's drowning. And I said, What what do you what do you want to do? She said, Well, I want to throw him one of those lifesaver, life preserver thingies, you know, like whatever those are called. And I said, I totally get that, and that makes sense. I said, but look down in the water with me.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

There's 300 of them in the water, he's just not grabbing them. Oh, yeah. Look, look at look at the wake behind the ship. You've done that 300 times.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

Well, and they're all around him right now. Yeah, they're all around. He's just not grabbing one. He's insisting that you need to throw me another one, and that will be the thing that will make it better. And it just it isn't. At some point, guys, we have to grab the freaking lifesaver or whatever that thing's called. Yeah, right. We've got to do it.

SPEAKER_02 41:02

Life buoy. Yeah. And he's got them all around him. It's not just her. In fact, it can't be just her. Yes, it'll be all these other sources that he's that he's tapping into. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

PBSC is not an ad, it is not recommending an advertising for the candy, by the way. Just to let you know. Guys, we love you. Appreciate you being here. Um, as always, uh, if you appreciate what happens in these podcasts, you will love the Dare to Connect program. Our very first Dare to Connect retreat happens Thursday through Sunday this week. It's going to be amazing. We got couples from all over the country coming to where Mark and I are at, and we're happy and excited to be meeting with them. We hope that you'll consider joining Dare to Connect. Grab a two-week-free trial of that at DaretoConnectnow.com. You can grab that uh at any time. We'd love to have you come take a look and see what it's all about. Again, that's two weeks free. You don't get billed and then get refunded. It's two weeks. You like it, stay. If you don't, leave. We wouldn't want you to stay if you don't like it, but you will. So get your butts in there. Um, and uh as always, if you'd like to send in submissions to the podcast as well and get the the heel up and the healing via snail mail, I guess so to speak. Um, you can send those in to the same website. Click on the PBSC podcast button up at the top there. It'll take you to the contact form where you can send those in.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

Yeah. Well, thanks for being here with us once again. Uh really love and appreciate and admire all of you. Um, and we will look to pick things up in our next episode or hopefully see some of you in the Dare to Connect program.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

Sounds great.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

Have a great one, guys.

SPEAKER_00 42:39

Everything expressed on the PVSC podcast are the opinions of the hosts and the participants and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of an individual qualified mental health professional. If you're experiencing thoughts of suicide, self harm, or desire to harm others, please dial 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.