He Says He Chooses Me... So Why Is He Still Thinking About Other Women?!

In this episode (328), we address a powerful and heartbreaking question from a betrayed partner: how can her partner claim to love and choose her while continuing to have sexual thoughts about other women? We acknowledge the profound trauma this creates, especially given the timing during pregnancy and postpartum—a period of heightened vulnerability. The repeated disclosures of these thoughts have created a cycle of ongoing emotional injury, leaving her feeling humiliated, replaceable, and unsafe. We emphasize that her pain is valid and reflects real, cumulative trauma, not oversensitivity.

We then explore the nature of these thoughts within addiction, distinguishing between occasional intrusive thoughts and deeply conditioned patterns of scanning and objectification that develop over time. While these patterns may be rooted in addiction wiring, they still cause real harm and must be addressed through meaningful recovery work. A major focus is placed on the “double bind” of honesty—where partners feel trapped between needing transparency and being retraumatized by it. We introduce the concept of therapeutic honesty, explaining that effective disclosure must be contained, structured, and focused on recovery actions rather than detailed recounting of harmful thoughts.

Finally, we outline what true healing requires. For partners to heal, there must be stabilization—meaning the reduction of harmful behaviors and the end of ongoing re-injury. We also stress the importance of separating the addict’s thoughts from the partner’s worth, recognizing that his conditioning is not a reflection of her value. Rebuilding a sense of being “chosen” comes not through words, but through consistent, protective actions over time. We encourage partners to take control of the disclosure process, setting boundaries around what they hear, and remind them that their healing—not managing their partner’s recovery—is the priority.

For a full transcript of this podcast in article format, go to:   He Says He Chooses Me... So Why Is He Still Thinking About Other Women?!

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Hey everybody, PBSC podcast hosts Mark and Steve here with a special message about our revolutionary online recovery program for addict spouses and couples called Dare to Connect. Multiple times every week, we get messages from subscribers in the program. They're people just like you. They're trying to heal from the devastation of sex and porn addiction and betrayal trauma. And here's a few of our most recent submissions. Here's one from an addict in recovery. It says D2C has principles that everyone should utilize regardless of their circumstances. It doesn't matter your coping mechanisms, it matters that you want to work towards genuine connection with your partner.

SPEAKER_03 1:40

That's awesome. Another testimony from an addict continues on. Wow. The way Mark and Steve apply what they've learned is always so redemptive. D2C has opened doors for my relationship that I thought would be shut forever. Mark and Steve are an incredible resource of information on the subject of sex addiction and betrayal trauma. We could not do this journey without their help.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Here's one from a partner who's been with us for nearly a year. I want you both to know that it is because of you guys and D2C that I'm able to be in the place that I am today. I will always be grateful to you both for your feedback and prompt replies to my questions. I can't even come close to putting it into words how valuable my time spent with y'all this past year has been to my life. Thank you for everything you taught me about betrayal trauma and boundaries and thinking errors and loving myself and making myself a priority and standing up for myself.

SPEAKER_03 2:45

Love that. Love that submission. And then as we close out here today, guys, one more account from another addict in recovery. I wish I had a platform like this 14 years ago where I could have learned and done the hard work of recovery before I had done all this damage to myself and to my spouse. And to be candid with all of you, that's exactly why we created Dare to Connect. You know, Mark and I found ourselves in that place. You know, messages like these and the others like them, they're what Dare to Connect really is all about, guys, and why Mark and I do what we do. Whether you're an addict or a partner of an addict, and no matter where you find yourself in the recovery process, Dare to Connect can take you to the next level. Don't wait another day to catapult your recovery forward. Today is your day for change. Visit us at DareToconnectNow.com to pick up your free two-week trial of Dare to Connect today.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Join us in the fight to take back your life, your marriage, and be stronger than ever. This is the PBSE Squared Podcast.

SPEAKER_03 4:41

He says he chooses me. So why is he still thinking about and or fantasizing and or objectifying other women? That is a it is a good question. It's a it's almost kind of a sub-question that sometimes gets tackled in other podcast uh episodes that we've done. But I I like the we like the focus, we appreciated uh the focus, and it's a really raw and vulnerable submission that this partner has. And we're gonna go ahead and we'll read that and then we'll uh we'll we'll jump right in. His face does come from a betrayed partner, and this is what she has to say. My partner has a long history of porn addiction and compulsive sexual behavior. He hit it at the beginning of our relationship, and when I found out it shattered my sense of safety. Since then, we've been in cycles. He goes to therapy, he installs blockers, he promises change. There's progress for a while, then there's minimizing, hiding, relapsing, or disclosures that reveal things weren't as quote unquote better as I thought. The hardest part isn't even the porn itself anymore. It's the constant objectifying and sexual thoughts about other women in real life. Women we see out, women on TV, colleagues, even women from his past. He says sometimes they're intrusive flashes. Other times in the past he has indulged them. Now he's trying to be, quote, 100% honest, unquote. So he tells me when they happen, but hearing them is destroying me. I have just had his baby. Throughout my pregnancy, when I was vulnerable, hormonal, exhausted, dealing with body changes and feeling unlike myself, there were repeated disclosures. While I was growing his child, I was also hearing about the women he was imagining naked. Then early postpartum, when I was bleeding, sleep deprived, healing physically, trying to bond with our newborn and manage my older children, things were more there were more disclosures. There is something deeply painful about sitting there postpartum in a body that doesn't feel like your own, and hearing that your partner had sexual thoughts about someone skinny, quote unquote porn coated, um, on a TV show, or someone from from his university days ten years ago and wondering what life would have been like if he'd chosen her instead. It makes me feel humiliated, replaceable, like I am just the woman he ended up with, not the one he truly desires. He says he d redirects his thoughts. He says he chooses me. He says it's addiction conditioning, not c not preference, but the volume of it feels relentless, weekly, sometimes daily. It doesn't feel like a rare intrusive thought. It feels like a pattern of a mind that is constantly scanning and sexualizing other women while I am standing right there. I don't meet men and imagine having sex with them, so I don't understand how someone can say they love me, are faithful to me, only want this life with me, and still imagine other women naked over and over again. It feels like emotional cheating. Not once, not an affair, but death by a thousand cuts. And I feel trapped in a double bind. If he tells me everything, I feel devastated and smaller and less chosen. If he doesn't tell me, I feel like we're back in secrecy and lies and I and I can't relax. I love him, we have a baby, my children adore him. I don't want to leave, but I am exhausted from carrying the emotional cost of his recovery. I am terri I am terrified that this will always be happening in his head, and I will never feel uniquely desired or safe again. So here are her questions. How do I heal from something that keeps reinjuring me? How do I stop internalizing his thoughts as proof that I am not enough? How do I rebuild the sense of being chosen, especially after pregnancy and postpartum, made me so vulnerable? And how do I know that what kind of honesty actually helps healing instead of re-traumatizing me? It's a really, really good I we we rarely get submissions, I think, that are that vulnerable and raw and just very uh I guess I'll just reuse the term, right? Just very, very vulnerable and open and just heartfelt. And uh heart definitely goes out to this partner for sure.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, we uh uh we can definitely validate the depth of the wounding and the ongoing wounding. I mean, to ign to acknowledge the postpartum vulnerability of this whole thing. All right. I mean, I my wife uh my wife gave birth to six children, and I was at I was a was uh present and attendant at every one of those births, and just everything that that women go through, uh all through pregnancy and then delivery and and post post-pregnancy. I mean, it is it is a massive undertaking that can't be overstated. And the changes to the female body are enormous. I mean, just right there, vast. And to hear her, you know, express just how deep the hurt and the wounding was when he was disclosing to her fantasies and thoughts about other women while she was in that place. I mean, it's devastating. Uh it's you know, it becomes this uh kind of a betrayal trauma overlap. We call it complex trauma. Right? So there's he's disclosing this uh, you know, while while she's pregnant, he's disclosing it's happening pretty much coinciding with the birth, and then continuing to go on after after the birth, and and now she's trying to bond with her newborn child and that whole process, and it's still going on. So this the real injury here is just not some guy who looks occasionally at pornography. I'm hearing this is like chronic objectification. Right? It just repeats over and over and over again. And so it's repeated, it's repeated re-injury for this betrayed partner. And so we don't think she's being overly sensitive at all. I mean, this is this is real trauma being actively triggered on an ongoing basis. And we want to acknowledge that, you know, just acknowledge that as much as we can.

SPEAKER_03 10:50

Yeah, absolutely. Well, and there's there is a pattern, right, that that's going on here, right? Um like Mark said. And there are obviously in I mean, not even just in addiction, right? With quote unquote normies. I mean, people who've never dealt with sexual addiction or sexual compulsion. Uh, we're all sexual beings, we're all vulnerable, at least at times, to sexually intrusive thoughts, um, which are things that are unwanted and things that we redirect. But then for those who struggle with sexual compulsion or addiction or have a strong background in that, there is the condition scanning element, right? Uh, and it's not even just the pattern so much as it is the mindset behind that. I mean, I I I mean, I'll just I'll be vulnerable. I distinctly remember probably the most visceral example of this for me. I remember it in in the deep addiction days, I I would walk into church, right? The most one could argue, maybe even more than normal, more than average and appropriate, you know, realm for for for such activity. I would walk into church and I'd just start a my brain would just automatically immediately undressing all the women in the room. It was just it wasn't even a conscious thought, right? And and I had and that wasn't something that I was just quote unquote afflicted with. That was a pattern that I had cultivated, right, over time. Um and frequency when it comes to the pattern and the and the process for an addict matters, but when it comes to the effect and the impact, especially when you form factor it in with what is being disclosed and how, and we're going to be talking about that, when that is when that happens on on the daily, if not or the weekly, if not the daily, right? That easily can can become very traumatic for a a partner. And it would be very easy for a partner to interpret whether it is or not that there is a real pattern here of unresolved addiction wiring happening. Right? That's where change really isn't happening. Now, is that always the case? Not necessarily, and we're gonna talk about that because there is the element of the disclosure pattern that's going on here too that we need to address. But it makes perfect sense why a partner who is engaging in a in in in a pattern of disclosure with her husband, the way that it's sounding, and we're gonna talk about that in a second, paired with um the frequency of these, the intrusiveness, and possibly the delivery of it as well, why she would easily assume that if that is not in fact fully the case. And either way, the methodology behind how this is being done in this partnership is clearly uh not helpful. No, and is counterintuitive to to what is probably at least good intentions on the part of the partner, certainly, if not as well as on the part of the addict.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

So um well, and it's very easy to see how this absolutely we would be felt by her to be uh emotional cheating at the least, right? And and of course, entering into the realm of infidelity. And that's something, you know, that's something with regard to intention and all the other lots and lots of aspects that we've talked about for the addict to work out in his own his own mind, his own tension, intention, etc. But this is yeah, this is horribly painful. And and it it really she talks about this double bind, this double bind of honesty. And we hear this from a lot of partners in betrayal trauma healing. If if if my addict partner engages in full disclosure, right? If there's a if there's the as we talk about therapeutic disclosure, where there's a preparation of the entire history, all the truth comes out completely transparently, and all of that takes place, there's a disclosure presentation, you know, all the different aspects of disclosure, that is absolutely essential for for many, even you know, most betrayed partners. That brings about re-traumatization. There's just no way around it. And then if after full disclosure happens, ongoing disclosure of any additional slips or relapses going on into the future, it's just more and more re-traumatization. So I want full honesty, but every time that happens, I get to go through the pain and the injury and all of it over and over and over again. If there isn't disclosure on an ongoing basis, then there's fear that I'm being continuing to be gaslit, continuing to be fooled. There's there's a whole lack of safety around not knowing what's going on. So disclose, don't disclose, ongoing sharing, not sharing. It's this horrible bind that partners find themselves in.

SPEAKER_03 15:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

And really, we need to talk for a minute about what we would say, Steve, which we we could call it therapeutic honesty versus raw disclosure dumping.

SPEAKER_03 16:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

There's a big difference, isn't there?

SPEAKER_03 16:04

There's a huge difference. And and honestly, um, you know, when you're talking about honesty and in a recovery situation, and this is this probably will not come as a surprise to all of those listening, especially us addicts. I mean, partners are vulnerable to this as well, but addicts are well known for doing things in extremes.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

No, really, us in freedom.

SPEAKER_03 16:27

We we really do have we we honestly do struggle very much in many areas, ranging from the addiction itself to the to elements of recovery, uh, with finding the balanced nuance, right? Of what is healthy versus not. Uh outright deception, right, versus I'm going to, you know, tell you how many steps I took today on my way to the driveway as part of my check-in. Right. Obviously, that's a little facetious, but the same thing holds p holds true in the recovery process as well. We work with guys all the time uh who, for example, struggle to it's it's almost foreign to them to think, well, why would my wife care about anything I do in recovery versus we have other guys? I mean, in fact, in today's addict session, for example, we were talking about mindfulness on our Dare to Connect program for addict spouses and couples. And we were addressing this very thing. We work, we work with many guys, for example, who really struggle with mindfulness and struggle to even cultivate it, much less share with their partners. But one gentleman shared, and we spent a good time talking with him and others in the chat who kind of relay with it about where you know his struggle is all he does is share feelings, and she's frustrated because his check-ins will be scads and scads and piles of feelings and not enough accountability and change paired to it. Yeah, yeah. But he'll talk about his feelings all day, right? Like just nothing changes, but it's just the same thing every day, day in and day out, right? And so so here we are, right in this process. And the question becomes you know, what does should honesty look like? And and there are three pieces to honesty that we we just ask each of you to kind of examine as you're looking at your own recovery process, because what we're gonna talk about next is kind of individualized for every coupleship. Very much, very much. But honesty in in a in a recovery dynamic should be very much contained, structured, and recovery focused, and meaning not diff not detail focused. So, what do these mean? Because we should talk about these for a minute. Let's let's talk about contained for a second. I'll get I'm probably I'm gonna use my marriage as an example because Brittany, my wife is really, really good at boundaries. And I remember I I've been sober for coming up on 12 years now, I believe, which is crazy. But I remember fairly early on in sobriety, my wife got very, very good at boundaries and doing her own recovery, and she laid down some groundwork for this disclosure process that we still operate on today. We don't use it uh, you know, nearly at the frequency that we we did back then, but it's still in place, technically. And her process for being having things disclosed to her is simple. So for her, what contained means is the following. First of all, you do need to tell me, Steve, within 24 hours, if you have if you engage in some sort of acting out. And then she outlines what that is, but she also as part of that containment says, but before you tell me within 24 hours, the following needs to happen. First, you need to talk to somebody in your group about it. In your recovery circle, in your recovery group, in your recovery process, because the shame, the baggage, the emotional baggage, the emotional fallout, all the crap that's attached to that, that's not my job to fix. It's not my job to carry, it's not my job to handle. That is what your recovery group is for. I'm not your dumping ground. She's told me pretty poignantly in the past, and she's absolutely right. And she asks that I so I don't I tell her within 24 hours, I don't do that in me, I don't do that until I've talked to somebody. But when I do come to her, she is outlined, first of all, I need to have a plan for what I'm going to do differently in the future. But tied to that, she also is outlined for her, and this is where this becomes individualized, okay? For her, what she considers something she wants to know and needs to know for her own recovery and healing versus not. Okay. So this is what it is for her, and hopefully this will give you spouses something to operate off of. First of all, if there is any sort of incidental exposure, so say I'm I'm working, you know, I'm a sex therapist, obviously, so I'm working, and there's some sort of incidental exposure to something triggering while I'm, you know, doing research for a client or something. She doesn't care about that kind of thing at all. She has no need to know about that at all. But if I choose to in any way engage with that information, or if I search anything out, even if I'm not successful in finding anything, she absolutely wants to know. Does that make sense? So there's so for her, she has she's she's done the work to very clearly outline for me, this is what I need to know for my own healing and accountability in my marriage. I need to know when Steve engages in intentional operations or actions to try to seek out things that are sexually triggering. But she, by doing so, has eliminated things that after contemplation have not been helpful or effective for her. Right? I don't need to hear about all you know 25 incidental exposures because you work with sex addicts all day and what that means. That's not helpful for me. That's actually really hurtful to me. I don't need that, right? So that would be an example of what contained, structured, and frankly, all three, honestly, and recovery focus looks like for my wife. And it's been a template that has really enhanced our process and helped to mitigate some of the unnecessary damage that has been done or had been done in the early days when I would just come to Britney like a sexually disclosing soggy waffle and just kind of, you know, squee myself out all over her and dump.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Yeah, what we what we refer to as raw disclosure dumping. Right? We we encourage all this to have very much a structure, a purpose where it's very well known by the partner in healing and the addict in recovery. What is what wants to be, what what does she want to have shared? What's the structure of that? And how how is it all completely recovery focused? What happened and why, what led up to it, what was what was the exact uh you know, the the exact acting out, and preferably with with uh as brief of details as can be to clearly communicate what it was, but not to over share with that, because again, once you once you hear it or see it, you can't unhear it or unsee it. And then very big focus. What what is he now going to do going forward? So that the outcome is different next time. Must be a part of this. That's a part of the this therapeutic honesty that we call it. Now she asked some very specific questions in her submission. And right before we get to those, I just wanted to say something. This whole postpartum description was very heartbreaking to hear. You know, you've you've she said, I, you know, I I had I had our baby. You know, we went through the whole, I went through the whole pregnancy process. This is our family. This is me putting my whole self on the line and sacrificing to bring forth a child for us and our family. How could he possibly be in that old fantasizing and objectifying and scanning mindset when this deeply meaningful, these deeply meaningful things are going on for us? She says, I don't, I don't understand. That is a that is an extra deep level of trauma and injury and betrayal when we as addicts continue to act in the in the addict mindset when really sacred things are going on in the relationship or with our partners. And I we could we could do a whole podcast on how in the world does the addict brain go to such despicable, dark, awful places where they throw everyone and everything under the bus. That's part of addiction. It's part of the insanity of addiction, the cold, calloused, you know, narcissistic side of addiction. It's awful. It's one of the reasons that we as we as guys who get into real recovery, when we're willing to step back and look at that guy, right? When Dr. Jekyll is is is willing to look at Mr. Hyde, we're horrified. We're horrified. And that's when we start to get ready to really bring about change because we don't want to be that awful, that awful guy anymore. Right? That could they could just be that cold and that calloused in in these sacred situations. So we just want to acknowledge it's it's almost it's impossible for a betrayed partner to comprehend that such things are possible. Um we as addicts, it's hard for us to comprehend at times how we could even go there. But it's all about acknowledging that, owning it, taking accountability, and moving forward. Right? So she asked, How do I heal? How do I heal if this keeps happening? And we need to talk real quick, Steve. What what what does healing require for a betrayed partner? There's uh there's a lot of things, but we could just give a couple of basics in this short podcast. One of the first, and and uh both Steve and I are trained in in Dr. Menwala's program, one of the things he talks about that must be true is there has to be stabilization first. The the the acting out on the part of the addict must diminish in in frequency and duration, right? It has it has to get to the place where it is stopping. The the re-injuring has to stop, or no healing can take place. Imagine you have a big gash on your arm and you've taken care of it and you've sewed it up and it's it's healing really nicely, and the bandage is over it, and someone keeps coming and ripping all that off and tearing that wound open, and now they're saying, Why won't you heal? Why won't you heal? Stabilization on the part of the addict has to be top priority. He has got to do his hard work, whatever it takes, to begin to cease this acting out, to keep re-injuring and re-wounding her.

SPEAKER_03 26:51

Now, from the submission that we received, it's difficult to tell what is truly fully going on here. And what I mean by that is is he actually because I, you know, we work with couples all the time, Mark and I, in our clinics, and there are some variables at play here that you know you can only you can only get so much through a podcast submission. Right. True.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

Hey everybody, PBSC podcast hosts, Mark and Steve here with a special message about our revolutionary online recovery program for addict spouses and couples called Dare to Connect. Multiple times every week, we get messages from subscribers in the program. Uh, they're people just like you. They're trying to heal from the devastation of sex and porn addiction and betrayal trauma. And here's a few of our most recent submissions. Here's one from an addict in recovery. It says D2C has principles that everyone should utilize regardless of their circumstances. It doesn't matter your coping mechanisms, it matters that you want to work towards genuine connection with your partner.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

That's awesome. Another testimony from an addict continues on. Uh in training as a licensed therapist. Dare to Connect has been far more useful to her than her degree. Wow. The way Mark and Steve apply what they've learned is always so redemptive. D2C has opened doors for my relationship that I thought would be shut forever. Mark and Steve are an incredible resource of information on the subject of sex addiction and betrayal trauma. We could not do this journey without their help.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

Here's one from a partner who's been with us for nearly a year. I want you both to know that it is because of you guys and D2C that I'm able to be in the place that I am today. I will always be grateful to you both for your feedback and prompt replies to my questions. I can't even come close to putting it into words how valuable my time spent with y'all this past year has been to my life. Thank you for everything you taught me about betrayal trauma and boundaries and thinking errors and loving myself and making myself a priority and standing up for myself.

SPEAKER_03 28:56

Love that. Love that submission. And then as we close out here today, guys, one more account from another addict in recovery. I wish I had a platform like this 14 years ago where I could have learned and done the hard work of recovery before I had done all this damage to myself and to my spouse. And to be candid with all of you, that's exactly why we created Dare to Connect. You know, Mark and I found ourselves in that place. You know, messages like these and the others like them, they're what Dare to Connect really is all about, guys. And why Mark and I do what we do. Whether you're an addict or a partner of an addict, and no matter where you find yourself in the recovery process, Dare to Connect can take you to the next level. Don't wait another day to catapult your recovery forward. Today is your day for change. Visit us at DaretoConnectNow.com to pick up your free two-week trial of Dare to Connect today. All right, so this re-injury can take several different forms, right? One is that he could, in fact, be just continuing maintaining or even increasing the amount of acting out he's doing, right? And that is definitely a potential uh for reinjury, and and and that may apply to some of you listening. There's also the other side of this that ties in with the second bullet point we have here in our production notes as we were getting ready for today, which is there could be inadequate or incorrect boundaries around what she hears and what is actually shared with her, because unnecessary sharing in the disclosure process itself can also be uh very much damaging and also be re-injuring as well. And I go back to the example that I used with Brittany, you know, that I that I gave a few minutes ago. The boundary that I shared with you, and I hope that this is a valuable template for partners when I've shared it with other clients in the past, it has been. Uh, but the reason why I share that is because Brittany and I did this process all wrong at the beginning, probably like many of you. The boundaries around disclosure. I mean, I wanted to be honest with Britney, I wanted to be transparent. I I I wasn't outright deceptive, rarely if ever, with Britney at the beginning, but I was trying to provide as much insight and transparency in the healing process as I could. But oftentimes, for various reasons that we don't have time to get into, the way and the manner in which I'd go about doing that wasn't helpful in terms of providing accountability for her. It just put a bunch of triggers in her head that she now had to do more work to process through, if that makes sense. It didn't add to the narrative, it didn't help to create cohesion between us. It simply just created it, it made it made the disclosure process or the check-in process really something to avoid or to to not want to engage with because it wasn't being it wasn't helpful. And here again we have the example of the extremes, right? Where addicts struggle. And this is where we wouldn't so I would invite every partner who is listening to this. If this resonates with you at all, you need to know, and not that we can do this, but Mark and I want to quote unquote give you permission on this podcast to empower yourself to decide what you want to hear. In a disclosure process, whether it you've heard us, you have all heard us do. We just recently did an episode on formal disclosure on the podcast. Formal disclosures always are done for those who are properly trained by them for the benefit or the non-benefit of a partner. I being being candid, I don't give a damn whether or not an addict wants to do a disclosure or not when I'm meeting with a couple ship. Now, whether he will or not is obviously part of the equation, but I don't do it if he wants to or not. I could care less whether he wants to or not. It's not about him. Disclosures are about partners. And if a formal disclosure is that way, logic would also dictate that informal or disclosures on the daily or the weekly should fulfill the same purpose, should they not? The whole idea here is to provide what a partner needs so that she feels like he, so that she's getting the information to show up adequately and authentically in her marriage and in her relationship, sexually or otherwise, to have a beat on what recovery is looking like for him, and then to take what she needs from that process and then quote unquote to quote 12-step, leave the rest. And if there are elements to that process that are not helpful for her, she has the right and the obligation to say, I don't want to hear about these things. Going back to my wife's example, those non-incidental things, Britney used to want to hear about those, like most partners do at the beginning. What Britney's learned through wisdom, that's not helpful for her. It's not cohesive for her, it doesn't build anything, it doesn't, it doesn't so much cause problems between her and I. It just again, it's a bunch of information she just has to surrender or do work around that she doesn't, it doesn't give her any value. And so every partner should be evaluating this process within their own relationship. Because we can't tell you for sure what's right for you, right? But you should be the one in the driver's seat. So I'll just end this little monologue I'm doing with this thought. The addict should not be controlling what is disclosed. You should be just controlling what is disclosed. And if he still has guilt or shame around that, then he has a group or a therapist. And if he doesn't, he needs to get one or both to process those through. If only there was a thing like Dare to Connect where he could talk about these things that he could, you know, enroll in and get help with that. Uh DaredoconnectNow.com, two-week free trial, guys. Get get your butts in here, and we'd love to help you with that.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Well, she asked another question. This would this one is very difficult for healing partners. How do I stop internalizing this?

SPEAKER_02 34:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

He's looking at, he's thinking about, he's he's sizing up, he's doing all these things with with all the other women around us. Well, how how is that supposed to make me feel as his partner? I and and we we we would have to do a whole podcast. And we have, we have done podcasts. You could go and and look them up on our site at daretoconnectnow.com. You'll see the PBSC podcast banner at the top. Click on it. And if you go down into the podcast section on that page, get a little spyglass where you can click on it and do search words. Uh, if you search on words like worth or value, you see some podcasts come up about partners and their value, separate from what he does or does not do, separate from what he thinks or doesn't think. And I know hearing that is hard, it's very hard. But this is about him. This is his choices over long periods of time, his conditioning, his addiction wiring, not your worth. And frankly, his ability to value people and things is really screwed up in the addict mindset. It can't be trusted. He can't trust it. He has to learn how to value people, once again, starting with himself, by the way, and learn what it means to see whole people instead of pieces and parts. So it's all about his issue, right? His brain patterns are about his past, not your current value. And we encourage all partners listening, go find other people to build you up and affirm you that that doesn't require him to be the one solely responsible for that. You go find your worth and your value in all kinds of healthy places so that you can you can build yourself up and be built up so that you have resilience when it comes to his issues. Right? And kind of tied to that is her second question. How do I feel chosen again? There's some things that uh all the addicts in recovery listening, if you want your partner to feel chosen again by you, there's some things that must take place. One of those, how many times we talk about this, Steve? My wife used to call it talk is cheap show me. Consistent action over time with addicts in recovery. Consistent, consistent, consistent, day in and day out. Right? Don't just talk, do. Emotional presence with her, being able to be in the moment with your betrayed partner, to lean in when she expresses hard feelings, when you get uncomfortable or ashamed or angry or resistant, you learn how to stay emotionally present. You learn how to lead out and lean in with that. And then you learn how to engage. And I love this phrase, Steve. Addicts in recovery learn how to engage in what? Protective behaviors.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

Behaviors on my part as an addict that create a protective, I'm fighting for you, I see you, I choose your environment for my betrayed partner. Protective behaviors, not just verbal reassurance.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

Yes. And that brings up a great point. We we actually had done it, we did kind of a cool module again in Dare to Connect uh last week about this. There is far when it comes to check-ins or the check-in or the accountability process between partners in this process. One thing that Mark and I see, there is a pretty disturbing trend. Even with couples who are being guided by well-trained therapists, too often check-ins become about they they become too sobriety or damage focused. Meaning, okay, where's the where's the shit? Here's the poop, for lack of a better term, right? Let's talk about what all the things that are going wrong. Now, is that an important part of a check-in? Absolutely. Accountability is critical in a check-in. But you know what should be happening in a check-in as well? How are we fighting for each other? What's working? Where are the victories? Right? When was the for all the partners listening? When was the last time your addict didn't just share with you like a list of here are the all the ways in which I hurt you this week or didn't hurt you? Versus here are the ways in which I actually chose you. Here are the ways in which I proactively engage with my recovery. Here are insights that I gained from the the guys' intensive that I went to last weekend, or my 12-step meeting on Friday. Or you know what? My my session with my therapist, man, it was rough. And let me tell you why. And I walked out of it with this one thing. I want you to know this is something new. I'm trying in my recovery. Do you guys see where we're going with this? Too often it is about accountability from the negative perspective. May we may we vocally and passionately invite all of you listening to consider where we can inject the positive accountability perspective into this?

SPEAKER_01 39:19

Oh yeah, that that along with it. And and she, you know, and of course, a big main theme of this episode from her from her submission is what kind of honesty actually helps. And we've talked quite a bit about that already in this episode, but let's just go over a uh like a healthy structure. Steve and I will tell you from 20 plus years of doing this with thousands of people all over the planet, play-by-play disclosures, we have never found them to be helpful or healthy. Detailed, minute little details play by play about what's going on in his head or all the different things. We have just found that those don't, those don't bring the outcomes that healing partners often hope for. They often will say to us, what, Steve, I wish I hadn't asked about that, or I wish he hadn't shared all those little teeny tiny details. So we want to get to the place where we, as we said, therapeutic honesty, the use of daily check-ins, and that those have a structure. If at all possible, therapist guided, helping you to learn how to do them. Come on over to Dare to Connect. We have a really awesome uh D2C vault video about couples check-ins uh with great guidance on that. Um recovery reporting back in, recovery accountability. Hey, here's briefly what happened today, here's what led up to it, here's my plan and the steps I'm I'm implementing right now to work on that, to create an environment of safety for you to engage in protective behaviors, right? Focus on here's what I did as an ad in recovery to respond, not all the gory details about what I thought. Yes. What did I do to respond? Right. That's that's the kind of honesty that helps. Because you want to move, you want to, you know, he wants to move into an accountability place. I had a thought. Here's how I shift, here's how I recognized it, shifted, shifted into a place where I fought for and protected us. Here's how I'm training myself to be able to respond to these old thought patterns and old triggers in a different way. Here's how I'm reducing the frequency over time of how often this runs away in my head. Right? Continuing just to disclose every thought without this structured and filtered process is just ongoing harm. Right.

SPEAKER_03 41:50

No, 100%. I I don't know what I would even would even add that, add to that, right? Uh you can hopefully you guys are all seeing how this can really change the dynamic about this interaction between coupleships when it comes to disclosure. Right? Too too often this process breaks down and is missing parts that we've talked about today, or becomes too emphasized on one piece versus another. And too many partners, and we may be inferring a little bit from this, but I it seems like an educated inference. Too many partners, like the one that wrote us here today, almost kind of feel imprisoned in a way by the process. Yeah, right. Like, gosh, this is something that I just have to endure day in and day out. And you have absolute control and need, and and we hope that you will take charge of this process. Disclosure in the coupleship is for you. Anything beyond what you feel is helpful or useful or beneficial for you, um, should be redirected to his recovery circle. That's what they should be there for. That's why he needs one.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

Yeah, and as partners in healing, you get to set the boundaries. Absolutely. For example, I don't I don't want or need to hear every thought you're having, but I do need safety. I do need, I do need to to hear about the the the behaviors that bring protection and how you're fighting for us. I need to know about those. I don't need exposure, I need safety. And what does that look like? Here's what I do want to know, and here's all the rest that goes along with that, right? Because what's the priority here for partners listening? Your healing is prioritized, not carrying his recovery for him. You're not responsible for managing his mind.

SPEAKER_03 43:35

No, and if and if you're if the check-in process has become that for you partners, that is the ultimate litmus test that you need to change that today. Yep. Because that's not your job. We have many podcast episodes we've done on this. You should never be his confessor, his absolver, and and his savior. That's not your job. If you are fulfilling any of those roles, that is a problem, and that needs to shift. Yeah. Okay. So you didn't cause it, you can't change it. You do have to work do your work, but you definitely don't need to do his.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

Yeah. Yeah. We we appreciate this partner that reached out and and every one of you partners listening. Uh we can only begin to imagine just the valiant, uh, crazy amazing work that you all do each each and every day. Just that you're listening to this podcast, just that you're hanging in with your relationships, it's absolutely remarkable. Uh, we admire you, we care about you. Um, you amaze us every single day. Absolutely. Just it's it's just such a privilege to do this with you.

SPEAKER_03 44:40

If you like what you hear here, guys, if you like what you hear here, that sounds weird. If you like what you've heard today on the BBSC podcast, guys, you'll love Dare to Connect. It's a no-brainer. The cut less than the cost of two therapy sessions, you get access to a crazy quantity and amount of ongoing. Content, live interaction with us and with other couples in an anonymous setting where you can get support, an interactive forum where you can engage with other addicts and partners who are struggling with the same thing, advanced courses on various recovery topics. I'll stop short of saying if you're not doing D2C, you're doing your recovery wrong. That sounds a little inauthentic. But this is the program Mark and I wish we'd had. We got here, and we're really grateful we got here. We could have gotten here a lot quicker with something like Dare to Connect. That's the honest to God truth. That's true. Come join us at DarTeconnectnow.com, grab a two-week free trial, and come join us. We'd love to have you here, daredoconnectnow.com. Uh if you would like to send in a submission to the podcast, as always, same website, daretoconnectnow.com. Click at the uh PBC podcast logo up at the top. Uh, do not email us directly. We had someone do that this week. We don't take direct emails that way. So uh you need to click on the PBSE podcast link. Uh go scroll down to the bottom. There's a contact form there where you can submit your questions for consideration for the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

Yeah. All right. All right. Hey, take care, everybody, and we'll catch you on the next PBSC podcast.

SPEAKER_03 46:07

All right. Bye-bye. Everything expressed on the PBSC podcast are the opinions of the hosts and the participants and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of an individual qualified mental health professional. If you're experiencing thoughts of suicide, self harm, or desire to harm others, please dial 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.