No D-Day, No Disclosure—But I KNOW I’ve Been Betrayed: Healing from Integrity Abuse When the Truth Is Still Hidden

In Episode 330, Mark & Steve address a uniquely painful and confusing experience for many betrayed partners: living with a deep sense of betrayal and trauma without ever receiving a full disclosure or definitive proof of wrongdoing. We explain that the absence of a “D-Day” does not mean the absence of harm, and that many partners endure years of emotional instability, manipulation, and invalidation that create real trauma regardless of whether specific behaviors are confirmed. By expanding the definition of betrayal beyond isolated events, we highlight how patterns of defensiveness, objectification, coercion, and emotional withdrawal can erode trust and safety just as profoundly as more visible forms of infidelity.

A central focus of the article is the concept of integrity abuse, where one partner not only engages in harmful behaviors but also controls the narrative surrounding those behaviors—often denying, minimizing, or reframing reality in ways that discredit the injured partner. This dynamic becomes even more damaging when combined with strong public image management, particularly in cases where the offending partner is respected in the community. The result is a devastating double bind in which the betrayed partner’s reality is invalidated both privately and publicly, leading to confusion, isolation, and self-doubt.

Ultimately, we emphasize that healing does not require a confession, proof, or acknowledgment from the partner who caused the harm. Instead, it begins with becoming “reality-anchored”—identifying what is known through lived experience, validating one’s own pain, and releasing the need for external validation. By building a trauma-informed support system, establishing boundaries, and allowing space for grief, partners can reclaim their sense of truth, dignity, and stability. Even when the full story remains hidden, healing is still possible, and a grounded, empowered future can still be created.

For a full transcript of this podcast in article format, go to:   No D-Day, No Disclosure—But I KNOW I’ve Been Betrayed: Healing from Integrity Abuse When the Truth Is Still Hidden

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey everybody, PBSC Podcast hosts Mark and Steve here with a special message about our revolutionary online recovery program for addict spouses and couples called Dare to Connect. Multiple times every week, we get messages from subscribers in the program. They're people just like you. They're trying to heal from the devastation of sex and porn addiction and betrayal trauma. And here's a few of our most recent submissions. Here's one from an addict in recovery. It says D2C has principles that everyone should utilize regardless of their circumstances. It doesn't matter your coping mechanisms, it matters that you want to work towards genuine connection with your partner.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

That's awesome. Another testimony from an addict continues on My wife is just starting out in training as a licensed therapist. Dare to Connect has been far more useful to her than her degree. Wow. The way Mark and Steve apply what they've learned is always so redemptive. D2C has opened doors for my relationship that I thought would be shut forever. Mark and Steve are an incredible resource of information on the subject of sex addiction and betrayal trauma. We could not do this journey without their help.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Here's one from a partner who's been with us for nearly a year. I want you both to know that it is because of you guys and D2C that I'm able to be in the place that I am today. I will always be grateful to you both for your feedback and prompt replies to my questions. I can't even come close to putting it into words how valuable my time spent with y'all this past year has been to my life. Thank you for everything you taught me about betrayal trauma and boundaries and thinking errors and loving myself and making myself a priority and standing up for myself.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

Love that, love that submission. And then as we close out here today, guys, one more account from another addict in recovery. I wish I had a platform like this 14 years ago where I could have learned and done the hard work of recovery before I had done all this damage to myself and to my spouse. And to be candid with all of you, that's exactly why we created Dare to Connect. You know, Mark and I found ourselves in that place. You know, messages like these and the others like them, they're what Dare to Connect really is all about, guys, and why Mark and I do what we do. Whether you're an addict or a partner of an addict, and no matter where you find yourself in the recovery process, Dare to Connect can take you to the next level. Don't wait another day to catapult your recovery forward. Today is your day for change. Visit us at DareToconnectNow.com to pick up your free two-week trial of Dare to Connect today.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

And I'm Mark Castleman. We know the pain and heartbreak of porn and sex addiction. And we know the triumph of breaking completely free. Every day we help our clients find hope and healing. Join us in the fight to take back your life, your marriage, and be stronger than ever. This is the PBSE Squared Podcast.

SPEAKER_03 3:38

Steve Moore and Mark Cassiman here today with an episode titled No D-Day, no disclosure. But I know I've been betrayed. Healing from integrity abuse when the truth is still hidden. That is a mouthful. That is. Lots tied up in that title. We've got uh this is a submission from a partner, as you would imagine. Well, we decided this morning in this case that we'd go ahead and we'd read this one. We I know we don't always do that, but we thought that that would be helpful here, and it's it's not terribly long, so we will uh we will go ahead and do this. And this is again from a partner. I am continually working through my healing, apart from my husband, she specifies, as he has used law enforcement, legal means, and a restraining order as a as a weapon to keep me quiet and protect himself from being exposed. The thing is, there has not been any uh disclosure day. And when in mediation, it was discussed, because they are currently going through a divorce, it was discussed that I had a hunch that he had been unfaithful, and I and I asked him about pornography, he denied both. So both pornography and an affair. But everything from addict behavior to partner trauma, you and Steve so she was talking to Mark when she wrote this in. You and Steve describe relating to compulsive entitled sexuality and integrity abuse, I have lived through for all those years. And the integrity abuse continues through this divorce process. The betrayal of all this is so painful. He says he's not quote unquote an addict, uh, though uh though. And then she goes on to say, is it possible he hasn't, or he isn't, and he hasn't had an affair, but the twenty years of sexual manipulation, objectification in our relationship, and all the defensiveness, and then she specifies things like deflection, justification, and minimization, as well as projection, have all been present because of all this. Is there still betra is there still betrayal and is the and is this still abuse? So in other words, it's kind of a long run on sentence, but she's asking, even if those things weren't present, is this is there still a betrayal element here and is there still abuse? The integrity of use has been incredibly painful over the years, and more so right now. Without a disclosure day and or an actual discovery of infidelity, I am having a hard time moving through my healing because his narrative that I am the problem and am the unstable one, quote unquote, has been shared to everyone we know, including my kids. Can you guys do a podcast for those of us who have lived and been traum lived through and been traumatized by the integrity abuse for years and years, but still are in the dark regarding the secret sexual abasement if one is if one does exist? I believe so many women are in this and continue to be abused and traumatized, but don't have the knowledge and means to put a stop to it, because we were told that it was quote unquote normal for our husbands to treat us this way. Uh, and then she specifies meaning through sexually objectifying talk and discussion and discourse. I'm a woman of faith, and I believe all will eventually come to the light. If he doesn't change on his own, I know that my higher power will humble him and bring him to his knees. In the meantime, I need some advice as to as to how to move forward in my healing as I stay grounded in my reality, even though his intentionally manipulated reality looms all around me and is a cloud that follows me everywhere. My husband is a pastor, well respected in our community and in his church, and has and has been for years and years. I know he's scared out of his mind for his struggle. Again, he's never uh had a discuss disclosure day with her or or shared. Uh, but based on all the behavior, all I all I can seem to conclude is it has been there even before we got married. Uh I know if I know he is throwing me under the bus to protect his image, job, and reputation. It's such a difficult place to be, to know the truth, and know he is making me out to be the bad guy while he's the victim in all of this. He is angry, bitter, and vindictive right now. Uh and then she goes on to say, Thank you for all you do. I don't know where I'd be without you guys. Any advice that you could uh extend to us would be helpful.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

That's uh that's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Well, and unfortunately, this is not that unusual. Uh I know Steve's story and my story are a little bit different in the fact that I worked very, very hard to keep my addiction completely secret, hidden away from everyone. Uh, my wife, my family, my community, my religious group, everyone. And I I call myself the stealth king. And so I have a great deal of empathy for her. I have a great deal of insight. Because someone say, Well, how could someone possibly keep all this stuff hidden? Oh, let me tell you. Let me I would never share all the ways because I wouldn't want to give guys ideas. But that's uh was a big part of my story, and why? Because I was like this guy. I was scared to death that anything that came out, my life would literally end. My reputation, my standing in the community, my family, my work, uh, my my religious setting. It was all history, and it must be protected at all costs. And I mean all costs. And my attitude was I'm taking this to the grave. No way this is coming out. So please don't think that there could that extensive things going on that they that they could never be completely hidden. They can. And I've worked with many guys where uh I thought I was the stealth king. I've worked with guys over the last 20 plus years where the the lengths they went to to stay hidden even surprised me. So that is absolutely the case. And unfortunately, I've worked with a fair number of partners where this has been the situation. We actually have some pretty close uh people in our circle where this has taken place, where the woman has been thrown under the bus. Um all sorts of legal means, all sorts of sabotage with with family, friends, and community, where the woman ends up, you know, the the she says the bad guy and his reputation stays squeaky clean. I've seen some really awful scenarios where that's been the case. So this is this is unfortunately not that unusual.

SPEAKER_03 10:13

Yeah. Well, and even in those cases like like for myself, where I I was pretty proactive in being transparent with my partner, I can still connect with this idea of I was transparent with Britney and a few trusted people that I trusted to help me, sort of. Outside of that, same story as Mark. Would have would have would have taken him to my grave, rather died. Anybody know, you know. So we can, you know, the the the forces that drive a guy to stay secret in this, they're they're very much understandable. Uh we can we can relate, but at that, but in that same breath, we also can't underestimate as Marcus saying the damage that is done to a partner and and how it complicates the trauma, frankly, of a situation like this.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Highly complicates and and one of the so it we you know we should just launch there's so many points we want to make to this. There's a lot of things. Our hearts really gone uh go out to this, and our hearts go out to this partner, and our hearts go out to this addict. They we they we really do. We have great concern, and and I I feel a part of my I feel a broken heart, not only towards her, especially, but towards him. I know what it's like to live in this this altered reality, and it's not gonna end up in a good place. So as we launch in, I think, Steve, the first thing we have to say is just because there has been no quote discovery day or disclosure day, or because everything hasn't come out into the open does not mean there hasn't been ongoing betrayal.

SPEAKER_03 11:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

We have to be really careful about coming to that conclusion.

SPEAKER_03 11:56

Well, let's do talk about that for a minute because that that is that is important, and I think that some partners do operate under that, uh under under the idea, and and Lord knows I think many addicts probably front the same idea. Well, if there hasn't, if I haven't actually done anything, at least according to my narrative, you know, is is is is this betrayal? Well the answer is it depends, right? Because how how do we go about, for example, processing the concerns or the issues that a partner brings to us, right? As an addict in active addiction, and again, as a guy who with the exception of I think one occasion that I can recall, uh never lied to his wife about his addiction. I I mean there's no other way to say it, and I and I and I say this sadly, I'm not saying this flagrant. I abused the crap out of Brittany. I did all the time, emotionally and otherwise, in the context of this. I wasn't lying to her, but I was dismissive of concerns. Uh I was quick to intentionally or or unintentionally gaslight. Um, I would undercut things that she would say or call into question, you know, her capacity in different ways, similar to what she's describing here. Right? Those kinds of behaviors, whether it's dismissiveness, denial, uh, defensiveness, these these these behaviors can easily become emotionally and otherwise abusive, uh, regardless of whether or not there's any actual betrayal going on.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Well, and you know, whether or not there's there's actual betrayal, whether it can be proved, or you know, we could go on and on about that, but she mentions a lot of things, and I see this, I see this a ton. Uh this this was somewhat present in my approach with with my partner. It's it's it's attitudes, it's the way he approaches her on the daily. It's it's it's the it what has sexuality been like in their relationship, you know, the how we objectify our own partners, how we how we act in very male sexual entitlement-based ways. You know, she talks, she she references a lot of that. But there were just so many different things about about how all he was talking about that, how he even looked at her, all of these behaviors going on that she calls, quote, the smoking gun. She can't prove, right? Because if this is the case, he's doing such an incredible job of keeping it all secret and hidden. That's why we call it the secret sexual basement that he has been living in. But that that doesn't mean that all the other things haven't been present, like you said, right? Manipulation, objectification, defensiveness, denial, right? Reality distortion, uh, sexual entitlement, all these things that have been going on. So she doesn't have to prove porn use or an affair or sexual addiction in order to validate her harm.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

Absolutely not. I mean, if I look back on my addiction, if I could magically write, root out the actual acting out behaviors, but we were to leave everything else that would happen in my marriage, Brittany would, I mean, Brittany would talk about, I've talked about it on here. She would live in fear of me coming home from school or from work in the early days of our marriage. How sad is that? Right? Who what version of Steve's gonna show up in the? I don't know. I don't know what version of Steve. Maybe he's gonna be happy and want to connect with me. Maybe he's gonna want to have sex five times, maybe he's gonna be completely isolated and full of shame, and I'm gonna have to rescue him out of his crap. Like she never knew that that level of emotional instability is just one example where if you took out any history of acting out behavior, how how ideal would that marriage be? How connecting would that be? How fulfilling or authentic or safe would a relationship like that be? The answer is n zero.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Yeah, because betrayal includes, you know, violations of truth of all kinds, um, violations of dignity, lack of consent for all sorts of things, lack of instability, which is what I just just right?

SPEAKER_03 16:00

I what is what do we all sign up for in a in a marriage, right? Whatever else anyone signs up for in a marriage, I don't care what culture, background you come from, we sign up for what? Being able to have someone that we can lean on when we need help. Yeah. I wasn't somebody you could lean on for anything emotionally.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

No, we start talking about lack of emotional safety, lack of sexual safety, lack of reality. Let's just write just that one. Lack of living in in transparent, total reality.

SPEAKER_03 16:28

Yes, absolutely. Let's let's I mean, let's do let's give one other example just for sake, just and I'll be quick about this. But let's say, again, we're just assuming for sake of argument that a guy magically truly there was no betrayal going on, but he showed up every day in his relationship in a shame pattern. To all you partners listening, think about that for a minute. If he showed up constantly in shame, you were having to emotionally rescue him all the time. He wasn't making changes to address the shame, he was always falling to pieces anytime you brought up a concern, how happy would you be in that marriage? How safe would you feel? How connected would you feel? Now that doesn't now I use that example because most people wouldn't say, well, a shame response is abusive, isn't it? If I'm emotionally isolating and withdrawn from my partner all the time, which includes withholding affection, withholding emotional investment, withholding uh the capacity to stand on my own two feet and withholding support, simply because it's not active abuse doesn't mean that it's not abusive. If that happens over the course of months or years or decades, which has which is the case for many of the partners that Mark and I have worked with, you take just that element and is is the sexual betrayal a thing? Yeah, it is. But for most of the partners that we've worked with, hands down, they would vocalize what I just described as being the more significant issue.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Well, we have to be very careful here because we like to classify this level of abuse you're talking about, right? He he gets angry, he he throws things, he shuts me down, he gets aggressive. How about the way I abused my wife emotionally? I shut down, I went stoic, I went silent, I wouldn't respond, I would turn into a block of granite. Is that not abusive?

SPEAKER_03 18:10

Well, you would and Mark's told the story before. He would literally just get up and walk out of a conversation.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Yeah, just go silent, turn around and walk away, leave her sitting.

SPEAKER_03 18:18

Middle of his wife being emotional, trying to share her full authentic self, and he literally just exits exit stage left. There's all I would do the same thing, usually throwing something at the wall or screaming some obscenity. But what is that? But in both cases, what is that? Recurrently emotionally, emotionally abandoning your partner.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:36

That's what that is.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Well, and so what does she describe? Uh sexual entitlement, objectifying talk with her, coercive sexual dynamics, deflection, justification, minimization, projection, blame shifting, and making the wounded partner, making the wounded partner look like the unstable one within the family and with everyone around them. Right?

unknown 19:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

The label, the may the label of, you know, formal betrayal may matter clinically, but the absence of that label does not erase the injury.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

Yeah. Well, and she brings up something that's really important to talk about here for a second. It's this concept of integrity abuse. Now, those who've been listening to the podcast for a while know that we've been incorporating terminology from Dr. Omar Manwala recently, a noted uh psychologist in the field of sexual betrayal and sexual addiction. Um, Mark and I recently completed extensive training underneath him and completed his certification program for therapists. And so we integrate a lot of his uh dialogue, and this partner is familiar with his work as well because she uses this term integrity abuse. Right. So, what is what is integrity abuse? I mean, let's talk about that for two seconds, Mark. What's the what's the simplest definition you could throw out there for integrity abuse?

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Well, it's a it's an it's an intentionally manipulated reality that that uh the, for example, this this addict partner, let or even if he isn't an addict, like he says, it's an intentionally manipulated reality that he creates. And it's it's it's part of a pattern of deception, denial, image projection, right? Protecting my image, my reputation. It involves intimidation, manipulation, and again, uh, this whole reality distortion. This is this is all kind of in this whole this whole concept of harm being done to her. Hey everybody, PBSC podcast hosts, Mark and Steve here with a special message about our revolutionary online recovery program for addict spouses and couples called Dare to Connect. Multiple times every week, we get messages from subscribers in the program. They're people just like you. They're trying to heal from the devastation of sex and porn addiction and betrayal trauma. And here's a few of our most recent submissions. Here's one from an addict in recovery. It says D2C has principles that everyone should utilize regardless of their circumstances. It doesn't matter your coping mechanisms, it matters that you want to work towards genuine connection with your partner.

SPEAKER_03 21:10

That's awesome. Another testimony from an addict continues on. Wow. The way Mark and Steve apply what they've learned is always so redemptive. D2C has opened doors for my relationship that I thought would be shut forever. Mark and Steve are an incredible resource of information on the subject of sex addiction and betrayal trauma. We could not do this journey without their help.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Here's one from a partner who's been with us for nearly a year. I want you both to know that it is because of you guys and D2C that I'm able to be in the place that I am today. I will always be grateful to you both for your feedback and prompt replies to my questions. I can't even come close to putting it into words how. Valuable my time spent with y'all this past year has been to my life. Thank you for everything you taught me about betrayal trauma and boundaries and thinking errors and loving myself and making myself a priority and standing up for myself.

SPEAKER_03 22:16

Love that submission. And then as we close out here today, guys, one more account from another addict in recovery. I wish I had a platform like this 14 years ago where I could have learned and done the hard work of recovery before I had done all this damage to myself and to my spouse. And to be candid with all of you, that's exactly why we created Dare to Connect. You know, Mark and I found ourselves in that place. You know, messages like these and the others like them, they're what Dare to Connect really is all about, guys, and why Mark and I do what we do. Whether you're an addict or a partner of an addict, and no matter where you find yourself in the recovery process, Dare to Connect can take you to the next level. Don't wait another day to catapult your recovery forward. Today is your day for change. Visit us at DareToconnectNow.com to pick up your free two-week trial of Dare to Connect today. Well, and can I bring up one? Because you you mentioned it in there, the manipulation piece. Now, she doesn't give us specifics in the submission that she gave us, but she talks about him being a pastor using highly religiously affiliated logic, right, and reason in in different things like sexual objectification and things. Mark and I work in many religious circles and from people with deep, deeply conservative religious backgrounds. We both come from one like that. So we're very familiar with some of those tactics. And we've kind of heard it all over the years. Addic partners, for example, or not even addict partners, but but men pressuring their partners for sex because, well, this is how you're supposed to love me, and God said so. So if you don't give me sex, that means you don't love me. Right? Or you don't care. Or I I need to have sex, right? And so if you're not giving me sex, well, then if I act out or if I step out in this marriage in some way, that's it's kind of your fault.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Yeah, if we if we were to if we were to summarize integrity integrity abuse in kind of one statement, it kind of says this not only will I harm you in all these various ways, but I will control the story about that harm, and then I will use your reaction to my harm as evidence against you.

SPEAKER_03 24:24

Yes. Well, and even worse, I will I will manipulate your sense of integrity and your morals as a way to get what I want. Well, you love me, don't you? Well, why aren't you having sex with me?

SPEAKER_01 24:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:37

Well, you must not really love me then. You see, can we all hear that, guys? I mean, that's just Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Or I'm the respected busin businessman, I'm the pastor, I'm the I'm the guy who the community all knows is awesome. So I'm gonna I'm gonna build on that and make sure that they all know that this is you.

SPEAKER_03 24:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Not me, this is you. Yeah. 100% that's integrity abuse. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 25:03

So lots of lots of elements there, right? That could be present. Like I said, we don't have specifics on this on this particular one, but we have a very good idea of what's going on here. All right. So as we kind of move down here. Oh, Mark, I just lost my screen.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Oh, yeah, we made some uh we made some notes. I can't made some notes. I've got to do that. We kind of mentioned this already, but I've seen this so often. It's we call it this uh image management, image management reality. I engaged in that for decades, right? Engaging in private harm behind behind you know the the walls of your home versus your public reputation. I was raised with stepfathers who lived this and I and they taught it to me, right? The one that said, man, your stepdads, he's the greatest guy, you know how amazing he is. You're so you're so lucky. Well, you should have lived within the walls of my home. Right. So there it's a very unique trauma uh of being harmed by someone who is publicly respected, especially like a pastor or a community leader or a a CEO or anyone that's highly respected out there in the public. Privately, the partner experiences all these things we've talked about. Uh, but publicly, this this person she's married to, he appears my calm, spiritual, credible. He he even appears to be victimized. He's the victim. This is this is a this is trauma times 10. Right? It's it it creates a br uh just a brutal double double bind. The more she tries to tell the truth, the more unstable she's made to look. And and and that that image management, if he's that that's what he's engaging in, isn't simply about his repu his reputation. This becomes a tool of control, especially when a public-facing identity is being protected at the partner's expense.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

We have seen that a lot. Protecting my public-facing identity at the expense of my partner, whom I am supposed to love and be devoted to above all people on the planet.

SPEAKER_03 27:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:15

Absolutely. Well, let's talk about this healing concept while still in the dark, right? Because for partners, obviously, this there is a this is not your typical uh betrayal trauma healing situation. This this particular partner is formally in the process of a divorce. So this relationship is formally ending, although there are kids involved. So the relationship ending is kind of a relative term because it won't really end, at least in in in totality, with regard to the co-parenting. But how does this healing uh happen? Right? I mean, that's when we get down to like really brass tacks, what does what does that look like in a dynamic where he is not owning fully his side of the street, or at least she heavily suspects that he's not, right? What does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Yeah, how do you heal when when when quote things stay in the dark?

SPEAKER_03 28:04

I think that there is I want to be careful with this because you know, one of the main one of the main like therapy 101 concepts, right? Is that, and and there, and we really do mean this in the therapy world. It's not just like a nice idea, is that feelings are always valid. Now they may not line up with facts, they may or may not. That's a different discussion. But feelings and emotions are always worthy and deserving of validation. And when I work with partners or or in coupleships, and when Mark does the same, it's one of the things that we focus on right out the at the at out the gate, right? I I uh had a discussion recently with an addict uh that uh I've had too many times in my in my office, which is so what do you want more, man? Do you want to be right or do you want it or do you want to connect? Like what's gonna be your main priority here? Do you want to die on this hill and disputing facts and just dig in with your partner? Or do you want to be or do you want to set aside facts for a moment and try to connect with what your partner's actually trying to tell you? Because whether she's right or wrong doesn't doesn't have any play or perspective on the fact that your partner is in pain and she's hurting and she's bleeding out. So do you want to address the bleeding out, or do you want to sit and tell her why factually she shouldn't be?

unknown 29:30

Right?

SPEAKER_03 29:31

That's what we're really talking about.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

That's what we're talking about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:33

That's what we're talking about. And so so the that's that's kind of the first thing outside out of the gate, right? And and again, it speaks back to this emotionally abusive component that we're talking about here or neglectful component, like the Marxist just indicated. Right. So in in from her perspective, right, it's important that she that she seek validation and that she provides some of that validation for herself uh in regards to what she does know for certain, right? Because we could speculate about his stuff all day long, and the traumatized brain can easily do that. And we always try to dissuade partners from doing that because your trauma brain will just run amok with and fill in the blank with every possible worst-case scenario ever. Um, which in a in a in a case where a divorce is already taking place isn't going to be helpful because this relationship is terminating. Um, so when we talk about uh what that looks like for her, right, what are the things that she can for sure focus on and gravitate to? Well, what she has experienced sexually. Does she know she's been sexually betrayed in terms of his stepping out of the marriage? No, according to her narrative. But does she know she's been manipulated, pressured, objectified? Yeah, she knows all of those things, right? Spiritually and relationally has she been manipulated, abused, possibly neglected. Yes. Right? She can own and acknowledge, for example, what her what she has been carrying around in her body on a physiological level for years, while this has been going on. Really great book out there. If you if any of you partners haven't read it, it's a heavy read, but the body keeps the score. Great book. Really great research based. I mean, you'll read a page at a time and need a nap after it. It's really heavy reading, but but uh really talks about some of the latest research around this concept of where we carry pain in the body. Uh, what patterns have repeatedly showed up in the marriage? Again, regardless of this of the source, right? Was the source sexual infidelity or not? We don't know. But that doesn't change the fact that he was emotionally variable, that he was dismissive, that he was neglectful, that he was doing all these other things, right? Regardless of the source, the behaviors were still present. Uh, and that includes things like when she would ask questions, and I can really tragically relate to this, when Britney would try to bring up questions with me vulnerably, immediate defensiveness, immediately shut down. How dare you question me? How how how could you even think that about me? How would you ever, right? Constantly having your reality shut down. Um, how he responded to her when she when she was in pain, kind of going back to what we were talking about. Every time she would vocalize, hey, I'm hurting here. And he and he and him more or less coming back and saying, Well, you shouldn't. So stop. I mean, isn't that the dynamic that we're talking about here? Quit hurting. You're not really hurting, you're not really bleeding. Let me tell you all the reasons why you're wrong.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

Yeah. Yeah. And and then and then part of that discussion is what does she need now for safety, support, and stability? Yes, right? Because the real message here is you you don't have to wait for the hidden truth to be revealed before you begin healing from the known harms. Absolutely. And what does she know? Right? We we would encourage her to start to get really practically, we would call it reality anchored as she starts to write down and really ponder on, right? What do I know has has happened and and and was going on? What have I experienced in my body and in my emotions? What patterns did I repeatedly see? Right? What I what uh what do I suspect but cannot be proved? What I need, regardless of what he admits or does not admit, what I will no longer debate, right? These are the kinds of things for her to start to find her voice. And she can't find, you know, she's probably not going to ever have it with him. But finding the voice in her own her own uh journaling and pondering, her own relationship with her higher power, finding the voice with support groups, with other women who have gone through the same thing. It's very important that she starts to anchor in in these kinds of things rather than allowing herself to just kind of float aimlessly in the unknown. Let's get to the known. Because there's a lot. There's a lot that it's known.

SPEAKER_03 33:50

Well, and we don't have this down in our notes, but it's something that we ought to say because again, there are sometimes these cultural pressures or realities that we learn either in childhood or from our families of origin or you know, from colleagues or whatever about certain realities that may not be correct. And one of those that Mark and I see when we're working in marriages all the time is that I need some sort of a factual basis for my pain to be valid. I've I have to have some sort of, there's got to be some sort of evidence. There's got to be an affair partner, there's got to be, you know, evidence of the masturbation, there's got to be web search history of the pornography, there's got to be something that that will then make it okay for me to feel what I'm feeling. And God knows that this partner, according to this partner's account, has not done a stellar job of validating pain. Um, but it's one of those realities that Mark and I and other professionals who work in this field when we're talking about betrayal, we're talking about trauma, is that it's it's important that we be dispelling and working on attacking any of those realities that we might carry that say, I need my abuser to validate what I've been through in order for me to begin healing. In other words, I almost need it's like I need permission. You do not need to any partner listening to us here today, if you don't take anything else from this today, please take this. You don't need his acknowledgement or his validation of what he's done or not done, or a combination of both, in order for you to be able to vocalize and be justified in your need to take space for you to heal and to to repair, to grow, to adapt, to to move forward in a situation. Yeah. Um, we don't uh uh and this is gonna, I know this is gonna be kind of triggering, but we don't we do not ever look at rape victims and say, well, you need to hear an apology from your rapist before you can get better. It's not something we do. And the same concept applies here. You don't need his, you don't need his permission or his validation for your pain to be real. And the more you can separate from that through, like Mark said, using support groups and other resources, the healthier off you're going to be. So any element of that that's lingering is going to hold a partner back in this.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

Uh well, and as I recall from this submission, I think there's children involved.

SPEAKER_03 36:26

There are.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

And she sounds like a really reasonable, you know, pretty grounded person, but probably we probably do well to just say something really simple about that. Um we should never in any case use our children as quote witnesses, allies, or judges. Um, I've seen that go awry so often. She can just offer calm, age-appropriate truth, like um there are painful adult issues between your dad and me. I'm getting support. Um, you don't have to choose sides so important for kids. I love you, I'll keep showing up for you. Right? That that kind of approach and dialogue. Um and then her moving forward, right? What is what does moving forward look like? Uh we would just encourage her to to we honor, we honor her faith and her longing for truth, for reconciliation, even for vindication, or her day in court where the truth could be told. Those are such understandable and such needed feelings. But at the same time, you know, we we we encourage her to not allow her healing to be held hostage by whether he ever confesses or repents or is ever exposed or humbled. None of those things may ever come. But her healing is paramount and the absolute first priority for her. So moving forward means naming the harm she knows, releasing the need for his agreement, and uh very much building a trauma-informed support team. Right. And and we hope she has good legal counsel. We hope that she's calmly documenting stuff, staying regulated, protecting herself from reactive communication and and others. And there's a grieving process for her to go through the grief of what's been lost, the tragedy of what's been lost. There, there is a grieving of that. And then just reclaiming her dignity and her sovereignty through truth and stability, right? Yeah. I mean, our our hearts really go out uh to this to this amazing woman.

SPEAKER_03 38:40

I mean, uh issues like this, especially when kids are involved, I mean it it never it never uh is simple, right? Uh separating and ending a relationship, which we're sorry to hear is going on here, is is obviously devastating. Um and we and I I doubt very much he's listening, but if in the unlikely event that he does, uh just echoing what Mark said, it is it is absolutely critical that parents in a situation like this main train maintain transparency with their kids about what is going on in terms of the process forward or what's happening in the relationship in terms of well, we're gonna be separating or divorcing or whatever. But it is absolutely likewise just as critical, if not more so, that children not be weaponized. Uh, you know, well, we're ending the marriage because your dad's an idiot, or you know, whatever, right? Um, kids are just innocent bystanders in this. Uh, they're collateral damage, they're already going to endure a tremendous amount. So at a baseline level, we hope that if you can't, if you can't have regard for your partner, please have regard for your kids and don't set them up for future further trauma or difficult dynamics down the road because of emotional issues that you haven't figured out yet.

SPEAKER_01 40:01

And as painful as it is for kids, you know, with regard to a father being, you know, dumped on, it is equally or even more um tragic and harmful to destroy a child's mother. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Or it it appears that there may be some of that going on here. And boy, we would encourage, if that's happening, to back up and really consider the long-range consequences of such a thing. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 40:30

Well, everyone, thank you. We know it's been a hard episode. Usually these episodes rarely end with out the need or the or the desire to watch some care bears afterwards. Totally, totally understand that. We know we tackle tough subjects here, but we appreciate you being here as always. If you like the podcast, you will love Dare to Connect. We'd love to have you come and try out our two-week program or for two weeks free, our Dare to Connect program for addict spouses and couples. You can grab a free trial of that at DareToconnectnow.com. Um, and for those who are wanting to send in uh questions to the podcast, we are a bit backed up now, about two months plus uh for getting submissions uh addressed, but you are welcome to send those to that same website. Click on the PBSC banner up at the top of DaretoConnectNow.com, scroll down to the bottom, and there's a contact form where you can send those in to us as well.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

Yeah. Well, thanks again for being here with us. Uh love and appreciate all of you. And we'll catch you next time in PBSC or if you decide to come on over to DC, we'll see you there. All right, bye bye.

SPEAKER_03 41:32

Everything expressed on the PBSE podcast are the opinions of the hosts and the participants, and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of an individual qualified mental health professional. If you're experiencing thoughts of suicide, self harm, or a desire to harm others, please dial 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.