Am I REALLY Recovering—Or Just Using My Partner Instead of Porn?

In Episode 334, we respond to a submission from a man in early recovery who discovered, with honesty and concern, that he may be relying on his partner sexually in order to avoid relapse. His partner discovered his porn addiction, he disclosed much of what had happened, and both of them are now trying to work their own recovery. He recognizes that his brain has been deeply affected by addiction, especially when he is in public and finds himself battling objectification and scanning. He also recognizes that merely pushing down urges through brute force is not sustainable. We affirm that abstinence from acting out is essential, both for the healing of the addict’s brain and for stopping the betrayal of the partner, but we also make clear that abstinence alone is not the same as recovery.

The deeper issue is that real recovery requires the addict to identify and address the underlying reasons addiction became his coping mechanism in the first place. Porn and masturbation often become a fast, powerful escape from shame, stress, loneliness, insecurity, trauma, fear, or emotional immaturity. If those deeper issues are not addressed, the addict may simply white-knuckle sobriety, replace one addiction with another, or begin using his partner as the new outlet for regulation. That creates a deeply unhealthy dynamic, because the partner may begin to feel responsible for keeping him sober through sexual availability. This can intensify her betrayal trauma, reinforce false beliefs that she was somehow “not enough,” and rob her of permission to have her own bad days, boundaries, pain, or healing process.

We emphasize that true recovery means the addict must build an outside support system, develop internal regulation, learn to live life on life’s terms, and stop making his partner responsible for his emotional or sexual stability. Sex is optional; intimacy is not. Healthy sex must become an expression and celebration of real connection, not a medication for urges or withdrawal. We also address the listener’s concern about social media, noting that social platforms, thirst traps, dating-app-style swiping, and constant digital comparison can train the brain toward objectification, instant gratification, and image management. The path forward is not simply avoiding porn; it is becoming whole—learning to see oneself, one’s partner, and others as full human beings rather than objects, outlets, or regulators. 

For a full transcript of this podcast in article format, go to:  Am I REALLY Recovering—Or Just Using My Partner Instead of Porn?

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Hey everybody, PBSC Podcast hosts Mark and Steve here with a special message about our revolutionary online recovery program for addict spouses and couples called Dare to Connect. Multiple times every week, we get messages from subscribers in the program. They're people just like you. They're trying to heal from the devastation of sex and porn addiction and betrayal trauma. And here's a few of our most recent submissions. Here's one from an addict in recovery. It says D2C has principles that everyone should utilize regardless of their circumstances. It doesn't matter your coping mechanisms, it matters that you want to work towards genuine connection with your partner.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

That's awesome. Another testimony from an addict continues on. Wow. The way Mark and Steve apply what they've learned is always so redemptive. D2C has opened doors for my relationship that I thought would be shut forever. Mark and Steve are an incredible resource of information on the subject of sex addiction and betrayal trauma. We could not do this journey without their help.

SPEAKER_04 1:10

Here's one from a partner who's been with us for nearly a year. I want you both to know that it is because of you guys and D2C that I'm able to be in the place that I am today. I will always be grateful to you both for your feedback and prompt replies to my questions. I can't even come close to putting it into words how valuable my time spent with y'all this past year has been to my life. Thank you for everything you taught me about betrayal trauma and boundaries and thinking errors and loving myself and making myself a priority and standing up for myself.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Love that. Love that submission. And then as we close out here today, guys, one more account from another addict in recovery. I wish I had a platform like this 14 years ago where I could have learned and done the hard work of recovery before I had done all this damage to myself and to my spouse. And to be candid with all of you, that's exactly why we created Dare to Connect. You know, Mark and I found ourselves in that place. You know, messages like these and the others like them, they're what Dare to Connect really is all about, guys, and why Mark and I do what we do. Whether you're an addict or a partner of an addict, and no matter where you find yourself in the recovery process, Dare to Connect can take you to the next level. Don't wait another day to catapult your recovery forward. Today is your day for change. Visit us at DareToconnectNow.com to pick up your free two-week trial of Dare to Connect today.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

And I'm Mark Castleman. We know the pain and heartbreak of porn and sex addiction. And we know the triumph of breaking completely free. Every day we help our clients find hope and healing. Join us in the fight to take back your life, your marriage, and be stronger than ever. This is the PBSE Squared Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

I'm still reeling from last week where we hit 333, and I joked at the beginning that's halfway to episode 666. What does that mean? What does that mean, people?

SPEAKER_04 3:52

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

I don't know. Anyway, Steve's brain gets too uh obsessed on numbers. It's good to be with all of you this week. We've got a good submission that came into us on a kind of hit on some of the basics of recovery, and it came to us from an addict, which we always appreciate, as we say often on the program. We get far less submissions from addicts than we do partners. Um, which, you know, is just kind of part for the course, I think, uh, on a podcast like ours, but it is still always refreshing. And we did appreciate his sincerity behind it. It's not terribly long, his submissions, so we'll go and we'll just read this and then we'll we'll jump in. It's gonna we're gonna cover some some uh more basic topics, but maybe in a new light, new lens, put a new refresh on it, and and uh our goal is to give all of you, whether you're old or new listeners, uh a fresh takeaway on some things as you uh hit the recovery road today in your individual work and in your coupleship. And this is what he says. Hey guys, hope you're doing well. My partner and I have been listening to your podcast for a few months now and have found it to be extremely helpful in our recovery so far. Thank you for doing what you do. You are most welcome. We we appreciate the kind words. In November last year, my partner discovered my porn addiction. I immediately opened up about pretty much all of it. Uh uh meaning what all of what I had done over the course of our relationship, and this has, of course, been extremely traumatic and difficult for her. Now, this is all in now that this is all in the open, and we are both working on our own separate recoveries, I'm beginning to learn more about how much this addiction has affected my own brain. When I'm out in public, I am in a constant battle to avoid objectifying people on the street. Whenever I think the idea of masturbating to poor uh masturbing to born or feeling earth to do it, and I have to push it down and fight it off. My instincts tell me that this is why I what I have to do to avoid relapse, but through listening to your podcast and speaking with a therapist, I understand that brute force can lead to lasting sobriety and recovery. I haven't gone longer than a couple of weeks without masturbating since I first watched porn. Over these past few months during recovery, I felt that I am I am relying on my partner for sexual for regular sex andor masturbation to avoid relapse, and I'm afraid that if I don't have her for that, I would end up losing control again and turn back to porn. How do I begin to recover and remain sober without using my partner to satiate my urges andor addiction? She also feels a duty to do this for me, but we are acknowledging that it isn't healthy for it isn't healthy or a real way to uh long recovery. If you have the time, I also wanted to ask your opinions on social media nowadays. I believe that my addiction has been fueled by years of sexual content being fed to me by various social media platforms. And he puts in parentheses, I am now off all social media, which felt like an essential step for me, and we would agree and applaud that. But I worry that younger generations are being purposely shown this content at a younger age than ever before. At that age, they won't be considering their futures and will end up watching that content regularly. Surely this is going to lead to a generation of men and women with porn addiction. And uh you are correct, sir. And sadly, your prophecy is already semi-fulfilled. But uh, but yes, we we would agree with that as well. And we we do appreciate the submission. So we've we've got two kind of sides to the coin here on the submission. One is a question about, you know, actual recovery, what does that look like? How do I do that? You know, if I if I take sexual activity off the table, at least the way that I'm engaging with it now, is what he's asking. And then there's also this quick question about kind of the impact of the social media piece. So different questions, but both very relevant, and we we thought it'd be a good one to address today.

SPEAKER_04 7:33

Yeah, yeah. And I we applaud the things that both he and his partner are doing. Uh, we can tell not just what he submitted, but that she she sounds like an outstanding person that's uh still in the relationship and it sounds like very supportive. And they're just want both wanting to do what's healthy and effective and and gives their relationship a future that is the one they both desire. He uh he brings up, you know, a really good point that recovery is not just white knuckling, not just you know, gritting your teeth and clenching your fists and just trying to avoid and keep all sexual thoughts out and don't fantasize and you know, don't masturbate and don't look at, you know, it's all the don'ts. And we will both acknowledge that uh abstinence, you know, getting to a place of increasing sobriety where you're not acting out is absolutely essential. We talk about that a lot. We we need to we need to be in 12 step, we talk about a progressive victory over lust. And the reason that there's there's a couple reasons, well, more than a couple, many reasons why that is absolutely important. One is that if we want our addiction, addiction alters the human brain over time in some really significant deep ways. You don't have the same brain as other human beings who who don't have long-standing addiction. The brand the addict the addict brain is different. It's it's substantial um, you know, restructuring of that brain. Now, that's not to make any of you who have addiction struggles or compulsion struggles hopeless. It just means that it's part of the reality that we face. I've changed my brain over time. Now, research clearly shows, we've seen this over with the 20 plus years of working in this field and with our own brains, that you can absolutely, through consistent choices, through consistent tools and a support system, that brain can come back to normal levels without question. In order to get there, we have to get to the place where we're using tools and support and approaches that are effective in starting to shut down the acting out. The more we go back to the addiction outlets, the more we slow down or prevent the process of our brains healing and restructuring back to healthy levels. So that's got to happen. So we absolutely support that. Having said that, sometimes, in fact, oftentimes in early recovery, guys are at the place where they feel like stopping the acting out is the absolute goal, and the and that's what recovery means. I no longer act out, okay, I'm in recovery. That is just the beginning, right? Real recovery is based on and supported by abstinence, but it is only a very small part of the story.

unknown 10:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:37

So maybe we could talk for a minute about that, Steve.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Yeah, I mean, it is important to, you know, if we're gonna have this discussion, it is important to kind of briefly, briefly cover, you know, what is what is recovery, right? Because that's a that's a the clinical term would be huge ass question. So we can't really go into all of that today, but if we were to look at that kind of in an overview, right? First and foremost, it is a recognition and an addressing of underlying issues. And that right there is the shift away from just the abstinence piece, right? Well, we one of the things we say oftentimes in our D2C program is that abstinence is critical for recovery because it is the gateway to clear thinking. Much like the drug addict who has to get away from his substance of choice, not only to reduce the the uh dependency, but also to allow brain chemicals and levels to normalize, to um allow clear thinking to reassert itself, to authenticity to start coming to the surface, and other things. Those uh those are all critical elements of the abstinence component.

SPEAKER_04 11:38

And we might we might add one critical factor to stop the betrayal of the partner, yes, that as well, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Yeah, because of course there's the cost of the relationship and the hurt and the harm and all those other things as well. I appreciate Mark saying that. We should include the partner in this discussion as well. Um, but uh as we do that, right, that opens the doorway progressively to again what what got me into this in the first place, what makes these issues tick for me? Why do I, as a sane man, put my family, friends, relationship, marriage, job in many cases, career, community standing, the list goes on of things we've heard over the years. Why do I put this all on the line for this? There's got to be a reason. And and you would be correct, because it doesn't make sense for a sane man to do such things unless on on the on a subconscious deep level, it's the payoff for the brain is big enough to counterman and outweigh all that other stuff. Okay. So examining and figuring out what that is is critical. Now it's kind of the catch-22 because abstinence is, of course, at least to some degree, is required to begin developing out this kind of thinking. But then at the same time, right, to sustain long-term abstinence, we also need to figure out what these issues are so that we can begin to address them. Right? So it and as we start moving down that line, that line of addressing the underlying issues, what we start to see is an evolution where we actually make a lifestyle shift and a change. We start taking what we find in most cases are the healthy needs that we're meeting in incorrect ways through addiction. We start meeting them in healthy ways. We start uh meeting needs for affirmation, feeling control in one's life, being desired, feeling wanted, an absence of shame, greater ability to reduce stress and mitigate stress and stressors in one's life. And along with all the other things, you know, addressing the trauma. We start making lifestyle shifts and long-term changes so that the brain is getting what it wants and needs without the toxic cost and collateral damage that the addiction seeks to meet when you're talking about an attachment disorder like addict like sexual addiction.

SPEAKER_04 14:00

Well, and I think you know, it's helpful. We've we've we don't have time to go into this in depth today. We it's such a deep topic, but it's uh, Steve, you often say, learning to live life on life's terms. Somewhere in the past, for all of us who have addiction or compulsion struggles, somewhere at you know, at age seven or ten or fourteen or whatever age it was, life came at us through a series of difficult circumstances, you know, uh problems in our homes, divorce, uh insecurities, embarrassment, the pains of growing up, you know, uh problems with peers, the the onset of puberty. There's just all these different things that hit us. And in a very sexualized culture, we can learn very quickly that there is a fast solution to deal with all of it. Just go to sexual outlets. I remember the first time I discovered masturbation. I was hooked instantly. I said, this is the be-all end-all solution to everything wrong in my life. I've discovered it. Thank you. Here it is. The trouble is once the brain learns those those quick, easy outlets to deal with life, we carry them with us into our adult lives, our relationships, and they last for decades. So getting to the place where we can start to learn what it means to meet life on life's terms in healthy ways, in ways that do require work and effort and self-regulation and maturity, right? All the things that we didn't learn along the way because we learned to escape to addiction, we got stuck in our maturity. And uh, you know, I don't I'm not embarrassed to say that in a lot of ways, uh in my forties and even my 50s, I was in in too many ways a 14-year-old.

unknown 15:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:54

And I needed to learn how to mature through and and and out of that and and do the things I didn't do all those years that I escaped. So it's it's a big part of this.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Yeah. I uh I well, and I can't emphasize enough what what what Mark is saying. I mean, every addict, if they look back, they they do recognize and see that point in which they metaphorically discovered Neverland. Yeah. All of a sudden we we think we did. We found this thing, this place, this this this this dimension where all the problems or the issues or the trauma or the stress or the whatever it was just went away. At least temporarily, right? Yeah, we exactly. That's the key term, right? It's it's temporarily. Now that now the issue with that, the paradox of it, part of why we named our first book, The Pornography Paradox, is because it is temporary, and what happens when when we we inevitably get kicked out of Neverland by the brain. We're facing all of the issues that we had before. Plus, but the problem is they had sex and made issue babies while we were in Neverland. And so now we have additional collateral damage we have to deal with new concepts.

SPEAKER_04 17:07

It gets even tougher, which the brain then says, well, just go get more of what you exactly. You gotta go back. And then it gets tougher, and then we go back more, and here we go.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

It's its own snowball, right? So it's important to recognize in the in this process that that that is what real recovery is. Now, one of the things that we wanted to just hit on very briefly is the what are the alternatives to real recovery, because uh recovery does have other kind of shadowy images of it that sometimes are pursued with the best of intentions but aren't actually healthy. First, what we'll talk about very briefly is white knuckling. White knuckling is what was described briefly uh by this uh uh question submitter in his submission, right? He's learned from his therapist that quote unquote brute force is not going to do this long term, and that essentially is what white knuckling is. I'm going to leverage whatever willpower I have, which in the case of addicts is less than most, and I'm going to take that and nothing else, and I'm just going to use my prefrontal cortex to override my survival brain for the rest of time. And you can see, even just in the in the neurological way I put that, how that is ultimately going to be self-fulfill self-defeating.

SPEAKER_04 18:20

We'd we've learned through some wonderful research over the last couple of decades that that willpower in the brain is a limited resource.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 18:28

It's like we have a willpower fuel tank, and when we use up all the fuel, the tank's empty. We're out of gas with regard to willpower. And then we then we don't just go back to our addiction, we dive into the addiction.

SPEAKER_01 18:40

Oftentimes that's where addiction, and this isn't just true with sexual addiction. Mark and I have spent years and decades working in chemical addiction as well. This is where any type of addiction is at most risk to escalate, um, is is during the relapses of that kind because it returns like a tidal wave. We haven't addressed the underlying causes. And so rather than I mean, think of it, the best way I could put it is it's like you're trying to put sandbags down in a flood situation, but you don't get rid of the source of the flood. Yeah. Sooner or later you run out of sandbags and the water just runs over the wall.

SPEAKER_04 19:12

Just comes over the wall. Right. Now, one of the one of the big problems with with this white knuckling brute force is, and I did this, we can get to the place where our primary addiction, like going to sexual outlets, pornography, masturbation, we we we we curtail or stop doing that. But but because because we don't address the true underlying issues and and and uh how to meet those in healthy ways, we easily do what? We replace the primary addiction with something that, quote, is seen as less harmful, less stigmatized, less whatever, and we can easily go to those cross addictions or replacement addictions. But I'm still staying away from from porn and and and sexual outlets, but now we become video game addicts, or we become food addicts, or gambling addicts, or shopping addicts, or right, add to the whole list. And that comes from not addressing the true underlying wants and needs that feed this need to escape and self-soothe. And if we're not careful, yeah, we can stop the one, but it gets replaced by a whole bunch of others. And we're trying to band-aid the symptoms, right? And this is this is kind of what he starts to allude to. And we we applaud him for the for the awareness, both of them, for even daring to talk about this issue of am I using my partner to kind of replace that though those old addictions? In my white knuckling, I'm staying away from porn and masturbation. But if I sort of put my my partner in the place of, is she a cross addiction or replacement addiction for all of this?

SPEAKER_02 20:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:59

Does she now become the regulator of whether I go act out or not? And if she can, quote, I guess I'm gonna say this boldly, if she, quote, can service me often enough, I won't go to my old addiction outlets. Yeah. Hey everybody, PBSC podcast hosts Mark and Steve here with a special message about our revolutionary online recovery program for addict spouses and couples called Dare to Connect. Multiple times every week, we get messages from subscribers in the program. Uh, they're people just like you. They're trying to heal from the devastation of sex and porn addiction and betrayal trauma. And here's a few of our most recent submissions. Here's one from an addict in recovery. It says D2C has principles that everyone should utilize regardless of their circumstances. It doesn't matter your coping mechanisms, it matters that you want to work towards genuine connection with your partner.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

That's awesome. Another testimony from an addict continues on. Is just starting out in training as a licensed therapist. Dare to Connect has been far more useful to her than her degree. Wow. The way Mark and Steve apply what they've learned is always so redemptive. D2C has opened doors for my relationship that I thought would be shut forever. Mark and Steve are an incredible resource of information on the subject of sex addiction and betrayal trauma. We could not do this journey without their help.

SPEAKER_04 22:26

Here's one from a partner who's been with us for nearly a year. I want you both to know that it is because of you guys and D2C that I'm able to be in the place that I am today. I will always be grateful to you both for your feedback and prompt replies to my questions. I can't even come close to putting it into words how valuable my time spent with y'all this past year has been to my life. Thank you for everything you taught me about betrayal trauma and boundaries and thinking errors and loving myself and making myself a priority and standing up for myself.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Love that submission. And then as we close out here today, guys, one more account from another addict in recovery. I wish I had a platform like this 14 years ago where I could have learned and done the hard work of recovery before I had done all this damage to myself and to my spouse. And to be candid with all of you, that's exactly why we created Dare to Connect. You know, Mark and I found ourselves in that place. You know, messages like these and the others like them, they're what Dare to Connect really is all about, guys, and why Mark and I do what we do. Whether you're an addict or a partner of an addict, and no matter where you find yourself in the recovery process, Dare to Connect can take you to the next level. Don't wait another day to catapult your recovery forward. Today is your day for change. Visit us at DareToconnectNow.com to pick up your free two-week trial of Dare to Connect today. Well, and and then as you can see just by talking about this, this this is problematic for a number of reasons. One, it doesn't solve the problem, right? Because we're still maintaining a sexual dependency. We're we're still reliant on an external sex, in this case, sexual behavior, to for internal regulation. Right? This has got to make me okay. Um, but but now, in fact, I'm gonna be bold and I'm gonna say I we would argue that from our perspective on this podcast, from a relationship standpoint, this is frankly exponentially worse than masturbation. Um, at least that's my opinion. And the reason why is because now I've co-opted my partner into a scenario where, as Mark said, they're they kind of are becoming my addiction, but I'm co-opting them into a situation where they are possibly going to be eventually find themselves engaging in in some sort of self-betrayal, something that's inauthentic to them. And they are also they they now become the target for when I inevitably am trying to quit or when I'm having withdrawals or when I'm right, whatever.

SPEAKER_04 24:55

And and and the responsibility for my sobriety, whether it's conscious or unconscious, now is transferred to my partner to keep me sober. Even if we don't mean to. Yeah, even if we don't mean to.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Absolutely. Right. And it it also feeds a lot of really destructive thinking in a partner's brain that is not correct, that already exists from apart most partners in an insecurity way. And it just galvanizes that thinking. Thoughts like, well, you know, he's going to this because I'm not pretty enough, smart enough, sexy enough, available enough, sexually frequent enough, right? I mean, whatever the case may be. And so it it feeds into her own trauma, her own inadequacies, all of which again are going to things be things that will complicate this process for the individual, the coupleship, and make recovery as a whole exponentially different, more difficult down the road.

SPEAKER_04 25:43

Yeah. Um, so so if we talk about true recovery, that is not what we've just been describing, what is that, right? This is where the guy in recovery, the person in recovery, learns that I need to start developing my own internal regulation, my own boundaries, my own healthy methods of self-soothing, of coping apart from my relationship with my partner. Right? That's where real recovery starts to open up and develop. And so we, you know, you Steve, you and I talk about uh the the absolute critical nature of an addict in recovery, establishing an outside support system that is not his partner. Right? So that he can go fill his emotional bucket, take care of uh all the very the various stresses and needs and fears and all the shame and everything he deals with with his outside support system so that he can come to his partner now with what? And you used this in Dare to Connect uh this last week, Steve, which I really loved. Come he comes with this emotional needs bucket overflowing with fullness when he comes to his partner, as opposed to the old way of what showing up with her as this needy bucket with holes that's always empty and she she needs to fill it. He go fill he goes and fills it himself in his own individual meditation and and and quiet work with his higher power, with his support group of other guys, with a sponsor. He does all that there. And so that he doesn't end up showing up with her. I did this with my partner all the time. I showed up with her with this as this is this constantly empty bucket full of holes, and she would fill it. She would try to do her part to keep the damage mitigated, but she'd fill my bucket, and what would happen? The blasted thing would empty and I'd be right back at her wanting to get filled again. Because I didn't have this outside system. I wasn't doing my own work, I wasn't showing up as a as an emotional bucket already filled and overflowing so that I could be there for her. Yeah, it's such a critical part of this.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Yeah, I mean, I would completely agree. And and and this and this capacity for living life's on life on life's terms, guys, as Mark is saying, it does, it doesn't just open the doorway for us really living, right, in ways that we haven't. But frankly, it and and this is especially true for you partners and addicts who are been listening for a long time or have been in this uh recovery journey for a long time. A common sentiment that we hear from partners all the time is that is the burden that they carry, sometimes without even realizing it, that they don't feel like they have permission to have bad days.

SPEAKER_04 28:33

Oh yeah, we talked about that in D to C here, didn't we? Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

I don't get and I I was I was saying this to a couple of the couples that I work with just this last week, and for both partners, the minute I mentioned it, their eyes lit up and they were like, that's exactly how I feel. Right? I don't, I don't, I am so used to him me needing to regulate him or be ready to support him because he's struggling or whatever, that I I can't have a crappy day where I just say screw it. Because if I say screw it, and he's already said screw it, well, what happens to the kids? What happens to the house? What happens to the right? And that that exhaustion for partners, again, sometimes operating in the background weighs deeply. Really, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:16

If I have a bad day or don't show up exactly the way he needs me to, he's gonna go relapse. He's gonna go betray me. So I gotta show up every time.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Or he's gonna take it out on the kids, or he's gonna, you know, emotionally lose it with whoever, or it'll affect his job, our income will go down.

SPEAKER_04 29:34

Just bad stuff's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Yes. Yep. So this this this shifting away from that. I mean, the long and short of it is this, guys, for the for this component that we're talking about before we move on to the social media side of this. In in healthy long-term recovery, the addict has to make a transition away from sex being a way to cope and a way to numb out, to a transition that involves sex becoming what it was always meant to be, which is a a means for expressing and celebrating healthy connection between you and your intimate partner. That's what it and and for some, depending on how deep the addiction has has uh gone for them, there are lots of ways of addressing that. Some coupleships, for example, are able to maintain us an ongoing sexual relationship without much of a break for whatever reason. If both the addict and the partner are are consenting and that works fine for them, and he's able to make that shift. For others, we have to implement implement what we've talked about, and we won't talk about them long term here or much here, but implement what we call a sex fast in therapy, right? Where we take a temporary abstinence from sex in the relationship as a way to kind of recalibrate that and help the brain to shift towards that kind of thinking.

SPEAKER_04 30:46

And we introduce a concept that I was very angry at early in my recovery. And how many guys, Steve, have we had who have really not liked us when we introduced this concept? Sex is optional.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Yes, and we know that that for many can be kind of wait, what the crap are you talking about? Yeah, no, sex is absolutely optional. Intimacy is not optional. People, there's there's a lot of research to back up the fact that people need intimacy. We talk about eight areas of intimacy on on the Dare to Connect program, one of which is sex. Um, and so there's lots of ways to find and express intimacy, contrary to what Hollywood tells you these days. So uh with that being with that being said, uh, that's the shift that needs to be made, and there are lots of options for that. Yeah. So we wanted to kind of shift gears now as we wrap up and talk about the social media piece.

SPEAKER_04 31:38

Well, he brought up objectification in public, Steve.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

Yes, well, and let's let's talk about that in context with the social media.

SPEAKER_04 31:45

Let's do these do these both together. Um he expressed a lot of fear and shame around constantly scanning or objectifying people in public, and he's trying to stop it, he's trying to shut it down. And we just worked with a guy here in Dare to Connect this last week who wrote into us and he he described that it's just completely taken over his whole life. In fact, this particular guy, um, he he even he he needs glasses to see normally. He's taken off his glasses so that the whole world's a blur when he goes into public. That's how he's trying to cope. It's it's that it's it's become that severe uh and taken on lots of obsessive, compulsive factors. And this guy who wrote us is describing that. Now we we don't have time in this podcast to go over how to deal with scanning and objectifying, etc. Once you've been in Dare to Connect uh for 30 days in our program, you get access to a course that Steve and I wrote. We don't know of another like it. It's called Lust versus Appreciation. It's in our Dare to Connect Advanced courses after you're here a month. It's got seven modules that we encourage couples to go through together. But it's basically learning how to evolve and mature from the place where this whole scanning and objectification started, usually when we were just kids or teens, maturing to the place of seeing and interacting with whole human beings. Starting with the self, because as addicts, we will tell you we self-objectify first before we objectify others. Starting to see myself as a whole valuable human being, and then beginning to interact that way with my partner, and then going out into the world to interact with whole human beings instead of turning them into pieces and parts that my pieces and parts want to do something to or with. Right? That whole maturing and whole and and and graduation or transformation to wholeness. And again, there's a whole course in D to C that talks about that.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Well, in this objectification piece, I mean it it it it is we kind of shifted here, because I love what Mark said about the the course. It is very true. Uh you know, when we talk about social media social media, where do we even start? Like anything else in the world, social media has has brought many powerful tools to the forefront in society, and some of them are really good. Um, but in when we talk about this battle against pornography, like like this uh question submitter uh sent in, he is right to be concerned. Mark and I are very concerned, as are many other professionals out there in the in the professional community, you know, because when you look at social media, and it isn't frankly just social media, nor is it just what people consider to be problematic. So, for example, this this listener that wrote us talked about, you know, social media and the pornography in it, and that's true, right? Social media has become another delivery system, if you will, for pornographic content. Yep. Uh and and or edging towards full-on nudity as one can. We teach in D2C that pornography goes way beyond just strict nudity. The definition of pornography has a lot less to do with what you're looking at and a lot more to do with the impact it's having on you. And uh, and and following that definition, social media can be very problematic uh on multiple levels. For example, lots of videos or images or imagery, imagery depict, you know, sometimes it's referred to as like as a thirst trap. Is there is there nudity in it? Not necessarily, in some cases, not at all. But the content is specifically geared to elicit a sexual response. Um, and that is the you know the the primary reason for it. But I would say that even beyond the sexual content itself, as bad as that is, what almost concerns us more as professionals is I look at social media, and it isn't just social media to be fair. This would be uh dating apps, um, you know, things that may seem even less innocuous. Now, are all dating apps bad? No. And are all and do dating apps always cause what we're gonna talk about here? No. But things like dating apps, social media do instill what I'm gonna call for a second kind of the instant gratification addiction, which enhances disturbing elements of the greater pornography problem, for example, like objectification. If you take any social media app, for example, uh, or not social media, a dating app, for example, most of them are kind of geared on a pretty simple premise. You put in all of your stuff, here's my attributes or what I'm looking for, you feed them into a system, an algorithm finds potential matches, and then what comes back to you? A list of 3,000 people that live within 500 miles, right, who could potentially match up with you. And what do they all show up on? It's usually a first name in their picture. And so what do you do? You sit here, you get your phone, great, and you're scrolling, and then you're swiping right or left. Accept or reject, accept or reject. Those who have engaged in the world of pornography or or or in the world of recovery will already see a disturbing parallel here, potentially. There's a training element to the brain that kind of conditions the brain to do what? Really, just initially, I'm gonna look at everybody through just a strictly surface lens. I'm gonna see them through that surface lens first. My I size up a person exclusively based on literally a half-second glance, and then either say, yep, into the bin of someone I want to talk to, or nope, screw them for all time and eternity. And that's how we operate. Yeah, that is a very scary line of thinking and really lends itself to the addict mentality. Now, again, am I demonizing dating apps? No, my sister-in-law got married off of a dating app. I'm not saying it's all horrible, but we do there are many elements to the social media trend that really are lending itself to kind of putting brains in a position where when pornography does come along or thirst traps do come along, the brain's already kind of been conditioned to respond and has like been through its own little kind of boot camp and is sort of primed and ready for addiction.

SPEAKER_04 38:13

Yep, it's trained, it's trained off those to scan to to rapidly assess, right? And then, you know, either swipe left or swipe right. It it it feeds the instant gratification thinking, and and and in feeding the instant gratification, instant assessment, you know, instant measure people up, what does that eliminate? The intimate factor in human relationships.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:37

And that's what scares us most.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

Absolutely. That bypassing is very, very scary. We are becoming a world that and and the other side of social media we don't have time to get into is that constant projection of what you want people to see or what you think is going to gain acceptance rather than who you actually are. It happens on Facebook, it happens on Twitter, it happens, it happens everywhere. And and that also, again, feeds heavily into what this addiction mindset. What do addicts do? We conceal who we are, who we who we hate, and we project to the world who we want people to see to avoid accountability, continue in our addiction, but most importantly because we don't like who we are.

SPEAKER_04 39:19

Yeah, but what do I have to do that allows us to trade anything from us? What do I have to portray on the outside to be acceptable, to be lovable, to be wanted, desired? And I'm gonna it's like gonna be all about that. That's the self-objectification we talked about, we talk about, which then lends uh or leads to objectifying others. Yes. Yeah, and there's a whole system that's geared to that now.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

So, with all that being said, thank you everyone for tuning into the podcast today. I didn't even keep track of the time, it feels like it was a little longer than it was. We we appreciate all of you and your patronage as always. If you like what you hear on the podcast, you will love Dare to Connect. Uh, five groups a week, multiple hours of live content, live interactive answers to questions and collaboration with hundreds of other couples just like you who are struggling with the same issues, a live forum where you can talk to and engage with them and get get support. I mean advanced courses like the D2C Academy, Mark talked about, other surprises that are coming to the D2C program down the road towards the end of the year. I mean, the list just goes on. Get your butts in Dare to Connect. It all it all will cost you. If you live in New York, it'll cost you like 75% of a therapy session a month. Um, come on, come, and that's just how it is now. I'm sure it'll be like half of a therapy session by the by the end of the year. Um, please come join us at daretaconnectnow.com. That's dare to connect now.com. Grab a two-week free trial there, and and we hope to see you there. For those who are uh wanting uh those answers through the podcast, which does happen through snail mail. Uh you are welcome to send those for uh with a bit of a time delay, and we will seek to answer those here on the podcast. You go to the same website, daretokonnectnow.com, click on the PBSC logo at the top and submit your questions through the contact form there.

SPEAKER_04 41:05

Yeah. Well, thanks for being here once again. Uh appreciate all of you, and we'll catch you next time in our next episode. Have a great week.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

Everything expressed on the PBSC podcast are the opinions of the hosts and the participants, and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of an individual qualified mental health professional. If you're experiencing thoughts of suicide, self harm, or desire to harm others, please dial 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.