What to Do When an Addict Uses Recovery to Avoid Caring About His Partner?

This episode (#337) addresses the painful experience of a betrayed partner whose husband claims he is “in recovery” after a relapse, but continues to severely lack empathy, respond defensively, withdraw emotionally, and use recovery language as an excuse to avoid caring about her pain. We make it clear that asking about his recovery, needing reassurance, and wanting emotional support are not “games” or unreasonable demands; they are baseline needs in a coupleship damaged by betrayal. When an addict listens to podcasts, finds a therapist, or checks recovery boxes but still refuses to become emotionally present and accountable, he may be doing recovery activities without actually becoming a recovering man.

We also explore how recovery principles can be weaponized when an addict hides behind phrases like “everyone has their own healing journey” or “my recovery is my side of the street.” While it is true that each person must own their own healing, that truth cannot become an excuse for emotional abandonment. Healthy boundaries should serve authentic growth and relational safety, not comfort, secrecy, avoidance, or shame-based self-protection. For addicts, genuine recovery means learning to sit with their partner’s pain without defending, blaming, minimizing, withdrawing, or making their own shame the center of the room.

For betrayed partners, the hard reality is that they cannot make the addict change, drink from the “water trough” of empathy, or become the man he needs to become. What they can do is find and use their voice, clearly communicate the impact of his choices, define their safety needs and limits, build an outside support system, and honestly evaluate whether his pace and depth of change are compatible with their own healing. The partner’s life cannot remain parked at the station indefinitely while she waits for him to decide whether he will become safe. She can love him, invite him into real recovery, and keep him informed about where the relationship stands, but she must also keep moving toward her own peace, dignity, healing, and wholeness.

For a full transcript of this podcast in article format, go to:   What to Do When an Addict Uses Recovery to Avoid Caring About His Partner?

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey everybody, PBSC Podcast hosts Mark and Steve here with a special message about our revolutionary online recovery program for addict spouses and couples called Dare to Connect. Multiple times every week, we get messages from subscribers in the program. They're people just like you. They're trying to heal from the devastation of sex and porn addiction and betrayal trauma. And here's a few of our most recent submissions. Here's one from an addict in recovery. It says D2C has principles that everyone should utilize regardless of their circumstances. It doesn't matter your coping mechanisms, it matters that you want to work towards genuine connection with your partner. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Another testimony from an addict continues on. Wow. The way Mark and Steve apply what they've learned is always so redemptive. D2C has opened doors for my relationship that I thought would be shut forever. Mark and Steve are an incredible resource of information on the subject of sex addiction and betrayal trauma. We could not do this journey without their help.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Here's one from a partner who's been with us for nearly a year. I want you both to know that it is because of you guys and D2C that I'm able to be in the place that I am today. I will always be grateful to you both for your feedback and prompt replies to my questions. I can't even come close to putting it into words how valuable my time spent with y'all this past year has been to my life. Thank you for everything you taught me about betrayal trauma and boundaries and thinking errors and loving myself and making myself a priority and standing up for myself.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Love that. Love that submission. And then as we close out here today, guys, one more account from another addict in recovery. I wish I had a platform like this 14 years ago where I could have learned and done the hard work of recovery before I had done all this damage to myself and to my spouse. And to be candid with all of you, that's exactly why we created Dare to Connect. You know, Mark and I found ourselves in that place. You know, messages like these and the others like them, they're what Dare to Connect really is all about, guys, and why Mark and I do what we do. Whether you're an addict or a partner of an addict, and no matter where you find yourself in the recovery process, Dare to Connect can take you to the next level. Don't wait another day to catapult your recovery forward. Today is your day for change. Visit us at DareToconnectNow.com to pick up your free two-week trial of Dare to Connect today.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Join us in the fight to take back your life, your marriage, and be stronger than ever. This is the PBSE Squared Podcast. And I'm with Steve Moore. This is episode 337. When an addict uses recovery, in quotes, to avoid caring about his partner. We could have used other words there to avoid being vulnerable with his partner, to avoid difficult emotions with his partner. There are a lot of things we could have inserted there. We kind of took the avoid caring about his partner because that's what a betrayed partner, the wording she used. But a very powerful, uh, very powerful title. Let's just read what she sent in to us. Uh it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's not too long. Here's what she says. What do I do if my addict husband severely lacks empathy and seems to have narcissistic traits? He claims he's in recovery now after he disclosed a recent relapse after a year of sobriety. He says he's in recovery because he's doing things that I asked him to do, like listening to your podcast and finding a therapist. He seems to think recovery is a checklist instead of developing empathy and accountability. And he frequently gets angry and defensive if I ask him to do things to support my healing process. Uses information he's heard about, quote, every person's healing journey being their own. And this is an excuse to be totally hands-off emotionally and to be withdrawn. He won't share his inner world with me how recovery is going. And if I ask how he's doing on a given day, he will get angry and snippy. I don't know how much more I have left of me dealing with future relapses and feeling like he just doesn't care about me. There have been times I'm crying next to him and he ignores me and then texts me that he will not, quote, play my silly games. And other times he will state that he shouldn't have disclosed a relapse because I, quote, can't handle it. And when I uh when I start crying and I experience re-traumatization, that's how he he reacts. Is there hope for my husband? I know I can't lead a horse to water. Uh I know, I know I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make him drink. How do I deal with this situation? How can my husband learn or develop genuine empathy and unlearn the negative behaviors that were instilled in him by his father, who was so emotionally distant? Please help. I can't do this anymore.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Wow. We think the uh partner for writing is certainly it's a relatable scenario, one that's uh all too all too common, right? And and I'm I I dare say that every partner who's listening to this podcast, um, this is not like you're listening to the Joe Rogan podcast and you're getting a special episode on sexual addiction and betrayal trauma. This is what we do here all day. And so um many partners can can connect with the exhaustion with this, definitely the retraumatization, right, that occurs uh when defenses come up or can occur, I should say. The loneliness, right? Uh all of the all of the emotions that that come with this. Um SE, you know, and uh and when addict partners uh you know express or sh or display traits like you know uh distance, lack of empathy, it can obviously complicate an already difficult situation. So we we definitely uh definitely can connect with that. And looking for reassurance, um and asking for support, we would definitely say, you know, those aren't those aren't games. Um we would we would validate that. Um and I do have some thoughts to share about that in a second here, but that's definitely true. And wanting to know, I mean, wanting to know, you know, an addict in, you know, in this process, whether or not he's sober or not, whether or not is he becoming safe. I mean, these are not those questions for for any addicts listening, those are not nice ideas, those are not like, oh, this is part of my wish list. These are baseline essentials. Um, if you're serious about the recovery process as far as a marriage goes.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Yeah, how's how's he doing in his recovery? What what what insights did he have this uh today or this week in his recovery efforts? There's all kinds of questions. And I know when I was when I was in heavy addiction, getting into recovery, I would become defensive and offended by those questions because what did they do? They triggered my shame, they triggered my, you know, you keep to your side of the street, I'll keep to my side of the street. What are you doing asking me about my stuff? Right? There was a lot of defensiveness, a lot of uh ego that would become triggered. And what I was missing that whole time, and we're gonna talk about this, those were bids for connection. Those were, isn't that what we do in coupleships? Right? Intimacy into you, I see, into me, you see. I want to know about you. I want to know what how you think, what you're doing behind the scenes, what kind of insights you're gaining. This is this is knowing one another. And yet when we're an addiction, we we get so defensive when our partners want to know us. And we're gonna we're gonna talk more about that.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Yeah, absolutely. Well, and and I mean keep in mind as we go through this that there it is important that any partner who's listening to this and and to the addicts who's listened to this episode as well, that keeping an eye to and making sure that we're looking at the real questions here um is important because discussions like this, and those who've listened to this podcast before will will know where I'm going with this, that when if you're going to have a discussion about this, the you the we have to have a clear understanding, right? Who is who is responsible for what and who is in capable of changing what. Um and and I wanted to just mention that right out the gate because every partner listening, we're gonna introduce a truth that we we talk about often on here. It sucks, but it's real, and it's essential that you're working on accepting it. You can't change him. You can't. No matter how much you want to, no matter how much you may be justified in wanting him to. No matter what he ha no matter how much what he's doing may be wrong or incorrect or sinful or evil or whatever. He being in a relationship with another person on an intimate level, the deeper the intimacy runs, means a that it accompanies a requisite acceptance first and foremost, first and foremost, with that person's autonomous agency and right and capacity to do whatever they decide to do in any given situation. The minute we start going down the road of how do I make them da da, we've already lost the battle. Um, and that's not we're not this is not a concept that is inherent to betrayal or addiction. This is essential advice for any intimate dynamic, regardless of your dynamic.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Well, and it it brings it there are hard questions. And I, you know, Steve, is you and I have worked with betrayed partners over a lot of over several decades now. It really breaks our heart when you have to start asking the real questions, which start to get into this question. Is his reality the way he sees the world, the way he sees himself, the way he sees me and us? Is his willingness or his insights? Are they compatible with mine? Are we compatible? And that's a really tough question to face because the answer might be I don't think we are. And it's hard to look at that, right? This comp this true compatibility question.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

Yeah. Yeah. And and again, partners, we know that that's frustrating, and we're not here to tell you don't be frustrated, but the the journey to acceptance towards that, the further along you can move in that and the quicker you can do it, the better you will be in your recovery. Um, because we see spouse after spouse, partner after partner in our clinics and in other scenarios constantly become stuck. And there are other ways in which that can happen, but I would dare say this is probably the primary way in which it happens. Yeah. Um that especially when it's accompanied by other things like the unfairness. It is unfair. Yeah. Right? It is unfair. It absolutely is unfair. But something being unfair has to be disengaged and delinked from, well, therefore I can make him do something else. Right. And too often I think we've we kind of link those together, the moralistic arguments with uh, well, what is it within my capacity to change? We have to keep them separate.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Well, and now if I would now, if I were a guy in in in addiction, uh in recovery, and you know, trying to make these efforts, and now I'm listening to Mark and Steve say, oh great. So my approach, my insights, my attitudes, my whole you know, angle on this is now incompatible with my betrayed partner. Thanks, Mark and Steve. I could, I would definitely have had an attitude about that. I want to invite any guy who's in recovery listening to really step back and ask yourselves that question. How I'm coming at this, the attitudes I take, right? The the different ways that I am defensive, or I shut down, or do I weaponize any parts of this, right? And how compatible is that with where my betrayed partner is coming from and an environment of healing. Because what Steve, you and I learned this the hard, hard, hard way. That's why we do this podcast and our Dare to Connect program so people don't have to reinvent the wheel and go through everything we did. We had to learn that recovery is not a checklist as much as we wanted it to be. I remember checking all the boxes. Well, I'm doing this, and I did this, and I went to that meeting this week and I read this book, and I right, how come that's not good enough for you? Because it's not a checklist, it's it's a transformation. There's there's a difference between doing recovery tasks and actually becoming a different guy, correct? Accountable, emotionally present, relationally safe. Am I actually changing? Or am I trying to check all the boxes and then after I get all that done, we can quote go back to to normal. I can get back to life.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

I tried to do that forever.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Yeah. Absolutely. Will and and you know, it it's important to note, and we talk about this often, that oftentimes recovery for an addict begins with checklists. It starts there. It be it begins with a gun to the head. It begins with it begins with, you know, pressure and look, this is that or the other. Now, obviously, that has to move progressively towards a self-intern motivated desire to change. I want to, you know, have better relationships, better connections, better, less shame, right? More connection with myself, all those things. But it can definitely start there. And it is important in the dynamic, and the reason why I mentioned that here is because uh for any partner listening, one of the things that you're going to be looking at when we talk about the compatibility in a relationship where you're asking hard questions like this is is he changing? Is he trying to change? And is it happening in a at a tempo and at a pace that matches or is compatible with my needs?

SPEAKER_02 15:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Right. Um, because she talks about how he is doing that, right? He is doing a lot of check the box things. Now, I don't know what that means. Did he start that last week? And that's like, you know, if if he started that last week and he's at where he's at, maybe that means that there is a potential for some rapid progression to happen where maybe some of these defenses can start coming down. If he's been mired in the check the box list for the last year and we haven't moved anywhere, and he's displaying the same defenses, right? The same issues, is you can see how those two those two scenarios are completely different.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Yeah, because he says here, he says he says he's in recovery because he's doing the things that I asked him to do. Like listening to your podcast and finding a therapist. So, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:21

When again, could that be in recovery? It could. Could it be that could be that could be now? Is that where recovery will happen or stay if he's really progressing? No, it won't. But it could be, right? Again, these submissions that we get from all of you are just a snapshot in time. So we have to keep that in mind as we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

It always starts out reactive, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:40

It does, and it always starts out with checklists and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Yeah, we we we we got into recovery because we were gonna lose our marriages. I mean, our wives had enough. How many times, uh, Steve and our in our days when we did a lot of uh we had an intensive outpatient program, we'd have guys sitting in group rooms. And some guys, you knew that they their butt was in that chair because they had no other choice. And their arms were folded and they had a defiant look on their faces, and they did not want to be there. And what was our attitude? We said, we don't care what got your butt in this chair, you're here. Now what? Where do we go from here? So we can get stuck in that arms-folded, defiant, you know, look in the face sitting in a chair, or we can say, Okay, I'm here now. Am I ready to do this for me? Am I ready to do this because I want to become a different man? My higher, better, authentic, true self. Where do I go? Or do I just stay in the check the box space?

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Well, and for the partner's part, this is these are all things that she should be watching, looking at, while again, vulnerably examining her own needs and her own capacities, right? Because when it comes to the relationship piece of this, it really does come down to compatibility at any given time. Right? Two people can love each other, but it uh contrary to to the rom-coms out there, love is not enough. It's just not. I know that from personal experience as well as professional experience. Relationship you can you can absolutely fall in love, be in love with, stay in love with the wrong person. You can be in love with the right person, they can change, and the relationship may no longer be compatible. And if we're going to, and and those are scary things to say, I know that a lot of people may not want to hear that. But here's the thing unless you honor those realities, my your capacity to choose a relationship is directly correlated with your ability to reject it. If there's no option or consideration for is this going to work and do I want to leave or stay, then are you really choosing something or no? We have to ask those kinds of questions as scary as they are, because that's what innate the the the the possibility of me doing something else is what empowers me to be able to say I'm choosing you. Otherwise, what is this? A hostage situation, yeah, yeah. I'm stuck here, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Well, and it and it brings, you know, I I could we could both relate to what she shared about him uh as she describes it, weaponizing some of these aspects of recovery because what do we talk about? Right? Uh, this this my my recovery journey is my own, right? You you you do you, I do me. Now that's true. It is true. Recovery does require personal ownership, but what can easily happen when I say I'm on my side of the street, you stay on your side of the street, I can easily emotionally abandon my betrayed partner. And I was I was quite good at that because I I used I isolating, uh, you know, shutting down, going quiet, escaping. I used all of those things as ways to cope. And uh while you could say, was I keeping to my side of the street in some ways, but it was too convenient of an excuse to not have hard conversations, to not lean in, to not show true empathy and sit with my partner in her pain. It was too easy to use some of these recovery principles as an excuse to not go there. Right. And it sounds like that might be what's happening where we as addicts easily misuse recovery concepts to avoid sharing our inner world, offering, you know, giving real reassurance and amends, making living amends on a daily basis, but really participating in relational healing, right? What does it mean to help heal this relationship that I have that I've really wreaked havoc on with my secret sexual basement and my integrity abuse, et cetera, et cetera? So there's a you gotta make you gotta decide if you're gonna make that transition between checking the boxes and moving into real healing and real amends. Hey everybody, PBSC podcast hosts Mark and Steve here with a special message about our revolutionary online recovery program for addict spouses and couples called Dare to Connect. Multiple times every week, we get messages from subscribers in the program. They're people just like you. They're trying to heal from the devastation of sex and porn addiction and betrayal trauma. And here's a few of our most recent submissions. Here's one from an addict in recovery. It says D2C has principles that everyone should utilize regardless of their circumstances. It doesn't matter your coping mechanisms, it matters that you want to work towards genuine connection with your partner.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

That's awesome. Another testimony from an addict continues on My wife is just starting out uh in training as a licensed therapist. Dare to Connect has been far more useful to her than her degree. Wow. The way Mark and Steve apply what they've learned is always so redemptive. D2C has Opened doors for my relationship that I thought would be shut forever. Mark and Steve are an incredible resource of information on the subject of sex addiction and betrayal trauma. We could not do this journey without their help.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

Here's one from a partner who's been with us for nearly a year. I want you both to know that it is because of you guys and D2C that I'm able to be in the place that I am today. I will always be grateful to you both for your feedback and prompt replies to my questions. I can't even come close to putting it into words how valuable my time spent with y'all this past year has been to my life. Thank you for everything you taught me about betrayal trauma and boundaries and thinking errors and loving myself and making myself a priority and standing up for myself.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

Love that. Love that submission. And then as we close out here today, guys, one more account from another addict in recovery. I wish I had a platform like this 14 years ago where I could have learned and done the hard work of recovery before I had done all this damage to myself and to my spouse. And to be candid with all of you, that's exactly why we created Dare to Connect. You know, Mark and I found ourselves in that place. You know, messages like these, and the others like them, they're what Dare to Connect really is all about, guys, and why Mark and I do what we do. Whether you're an addict or a partner of an addict, and no matter where you find yourself in the recovery process, Dare to Connect can take you to the next level. Don't wait another day to catapult your recovery forward. Today is your day for change. Visit us at DareToconnectNow.com to pick up your free two-week trial of Dare to Connect today. Well, in healthy boundaries, or I mean, we're not going to make this a boundaries podcast. That's a massive topic, and we've done many on those, but but healthy boundaries, just by a quick way of review, boundaries should be serving and employing and uh pushing the agenda of the authentic self, right? If my goal, for example, is to connect with my partner through recovery as an addict, then my boundaries should be reflective of that. So if I need to take space for my partner, what should that be a part of? That should be a part of some sort of temporary measure to create safety or to employ with other tools, not as a way of not sharing, not as a way of not opening up, not as a way of being able to say, well, my recovery is my business. Because do you do you see this is this is a good thing for this is important for any addict listening to this podcast that we need that who needs to hear this? If this resonates with you, you want you at all, you'll want to pay attention. Are your boundaries serving your your authentic journey or are boundaries becoming weaponized on your end to try to keep you comfortable? Because that's those are not the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

That's a great question, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Be being comfortable feels good, but if you've done recovery for many amount of time, you'll know that feeling good for excessive periods of time, particularly at the beginning of the recovery process, that's a really good limits test for saying you might be off course. Because recovery is a lot of things to a lot of people. Rarely when they're fully engaged in it, do I hear it's comfortable?

SPEAKER_01 25:15

It's no, it's uh and you can see in her sharing a part the places where uh as she shares it, where he gets uncomfortable. Yeah, so she talks about where she'll be crying next to him, which is what it's a on her part, a very vulnerable cry for help, a big bid for connection on her part. She's showing the tender part of herself to him and she's crying next to him. And she says he ignores her, and then he actually sends a text that says he's not gonna play her silly games.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

That is that is a significant view into what's happening here, right? Because he is developed, and and right now, uh, we're we actually just entered a really deep dive in our Dare to Connect program about what we call internal family systems or IFS. And essentially what IFS is about is over a lifetime, each of us because we're wounded by life, uh, embarrassed, awkward, traumatized, ignored, criticized, all the various things that happen to us as we grow up, we become wounded, that little precious inner child becomes wounded, and we develop these protectors that step forward in order to protect us from further harm. And those protectors take various forms. One of those is is uh one of his protectors is stepping forward to tell her not to play her silly games when what happens when he starts getting uncomfortable with her emotional expression. And so he had protector steps forward to block that and to not have to deal with it. I'm not gonna play your silly games. That's a protector. And boy, if you wanted to get in touch with uh what these things look like and how they how they work in you as an addict in recovery or a betrayed partner, it's be the perfect time to come on over here to DGC because we're just starting into it.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

And it's really powerful.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Well, and I'll just throw in the usual plug when this topic comes up. And it's important that we just mention this briefly. Please, anyone listening to our podcast, please be very okay. In fact, I'm not even gonna say be careful about that. That's probably softening it too much. Do not diagnose your partner. Okay. Nobody here, even if you're a therapist, is not qualified to diagnose your partner. I'm a therapist. I would not pretend to sit down and diagnose Britney with X, Y, or Z. Okay. Um, diagnosing is one, something that needs to be done professionally, but two, it has the real potential in a relationship dynamic to put people into boxes. Not only does that never resonate with the individual, it also cuts off avenues of potential growth and change. So please do not do that. If you're really concerned about, you know, is my husband a narcissist? Is he not, or is is my partner, you know, how deep does her child trauma tie into this or whatever? Leave that to professionals to figure out. Please do not move into a headspace that you are never rule number one, right after my partner has their own autonomous agency on a relationship chart, should be rule number two, which is I am not the expert on the other person. Yeah. Whether we've been married four days or 40 years, it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Now you are the expert on you. Correct. Right. And so this, and and so one of the things, you know, we wanted to talk about Steve is is you know, how she can express herself, how she can truly start to come forward in a very clear uh way with what the impact of all of this is on her. And we'll we'll talk about that in a minute. I would invite uh I, and again, we only have her side of this, but I see a lot of my my early self in this guy. I had real trouble with anyone showing vulnerable pain in my presence, especially if I was the cause of some or a lot of that pain. And so I would emotionally distance myself, I would have shame come up really quickly. I had stepdads who were totally emotionally closed off, and so they modeled that whole approach to me. And so I was really good at blocking empathy, uh, all the way to empathy for myself, by the way. I had no self-empathy, no self-compassion or self-kindness at all. And then it extended to my not not really knowing how or uh being very uncomfortable with going anywhere like that with others. So I didn't know what true empathy was. I had no clue. I didn't know how to listen without defending. I didn't know how to sit with my partner in her pain and stay present with her. Uh, I didn't know how to ask and receive questions about impact. I did not know how what making living amends meant for the harm I had caused. Right. I didn't know how to choose uh compassion for another person over my own self-protection. Those two bashed heads all the time inside of me. Do I self-protect or I go to compassion, kindness, and leaning in with this person? Oh, self-protection. Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Well, and that and that does tie in really well with all the internal family system stuff. Guys, if you if any of what you're we're talking about here with defense mechanisms and the and the and the forces that drive us in these kinds of situations resonate with you, get your recovering butts over to Dare to Connect. Um, few places you will find for a better bang for your buck. In fact, we don't know of any, uh, as far as recovery from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma goes for your coupleship and for the individual. Daredokonnectnow.com. Come grab a free two-week trial. We'd love to have you come join us as we jump into the next couple of months, really focusing in on internal family systems concepts and everything tied to it. But as we wrap up here, as Mark kind of indicated, right? There are when the rubber meets the road in a discussion like this and in a dynamic, because there's lots of nuances to this, right? On the addict side, on the partner side. But I I wanted to talk for a minute about a dynamic that I see all too common with with partners and addicts uh in my clinic. And it's understandable why it happens, but it does happen a lot. I will meet with partner individually from the addict. Okay. Partner will have to say she to say she has a lot to say about him and her needs and her boundaries is usually an understatement. Here's how it's affecting me. This is what it's doing, this is how I can't do this anymore. You know, and and we have this very visceral discussion, which is good, but too often one of two things hasn't happened yet. One, the partner has not gone beyond just that anger and frustration to look at the hard questions, which are how long can I really hang in this? How incompatible are these different things with me? Sure, this is pissing me off or making me angry or frustrating me or traumatizing me. But for me, as an individual, when it comes to looking at this relationship, how long can I continue on while he's working on himself? What sorts of level of change do I need to see from him? What milestones and how quickly do I need to see that? Those are all questions that only an individual can answer because they all have to do with compatibility on the part of a partner. Yeah. Partners inherently do not want to ask those questions for the same reason the addict doesn't want to ask those questions because we don't want to talk about the relationship ending, like we talked about a few minutes ago. But not talking about the relationship potentially ending ensures the relationship ending more often than not. We have to get really real about this, like how how deep down the rabbit's hole are we? Because I hear from partners all the time. I don't like this partner, I don't know how long I can hold on. You need to know, you need to start figuring that out. And you that doesn't mean you necessarily share that with him. Hey, I've got a year, so you can slack off for 10 months and get your act together. But it does mean that you need to map that for yourself and be thinking about that. What do I need to be seeing changing? Because just being stuck in the place of this isn't working isn't insightful. You have to move beyond the point of insight or the point beyond the pain point into the insight that the pain is supposed to bring. I'm uncomfortable, this is hurting, this isn't working, therefore, duh duh duh.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

Yeah, and a part of that is is then getting to where you can you can clearly and and as calmly as possible. Doesn't mean there's not a place for anger or frustration or there's not, but getting to the place where you've identified everything Steve just talked about, and then clearly conveying vulnerably to your addict partner, here's what you're doing or not doing, and how it is impacting me directly. Do and our relationship.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Do not let him or the scenario or the whatever silence you. No. If you can't have those discussions in person, email. If you can't do email, text, smoke signal, signal, homing pigeon. I've had singing dancing telegram.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Yeah, I've had betrayed partners I've worked with where they just provide a summary in writing to him. Uh sometimes daily, sometimes a weekly summary. Here's here's where I'm at. Here's the impact of what you're doing or not doing. Positive impact and negative impact both, so that he understands clearly. So there's no mysteries, there's no mind reading, there's right, here's where we are on a regular basis. I am reporting into you to tell you.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Well, and and and this is so important, everybody, because you need to be finding your voice in the relationship and maintain that as a partner. But he also needs to know so that he can be accountable. Yeah, not sharing those things with him gives him an out. And it also creates a dynamic where even though you may be doing it for safety-based reasons, you are also you're using his lack of vulnerability to justify a lack of vulnerability on your part. And that simply doesn't work in a recovery dynamic. Now, you may not be able to share it as vulnerably, like I said, with the methodology or the or the venue as as you need to. It might be like you're you might be like my wife. We are only talking about this in therapy. That's how we did it for a while. My therapist made $175 an hour listening to my wife and I talk. Because that's the only place you'd do it. The only place that was it for her. Unless he's sitting in the corner as a referee, taint happening. And if that's what it takes, then that's what it takes. But you have to be sharing because you have to maintain that dynamic. And again, he needs to know it's not doing the relationship or you or him or anyone any favors by not exploring these hard questions and then being transparent. I always think about the client that I had where we set a goal where he was supposed to check in with her every day. So she would come up with a vulnerable one. But any day she didn't, he didn't, she would come up with an alternative. And this went on for months where every day she would write, I had a check and I was going to share with you, but because you elected not to, here's what I'm sharing. I'm gonna talk about the impact that your lack of checking in and showing up today had on me and where it's taken us in our marriage. She did not give him an out. She did it very nicely, it was very, it wasn't like mean or toxic, but she was not gonna let his addiction brain squirm out of accountability. This, I don't know how close much closer we are to the edge of divorcing. I can tell you we got closer today. Yeah, we did because of your actions. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

Yeah, I love you, but I love you. I'm going to tell you what what you didn't do today broke my heart. 100%. Here's how it feels.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

And this is love doesn't look fun all the time. Yeah. Anyway, Steve's on a bit of a rant today.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

I'm gonna say, No, it's it's true, right? So that we have an ongoing pulse on the relationship. I loved it when I would go stoic, which was one of my primary go-to places to go silent stoic because and then my wife would go would go silent and stoic, and I'm like, great, we don't have to deal with this, or mission accomplished, or she'd go into rescuer mode to try to meet my victim mode, and then that would that would that was a so-called win for me as well, and right, we we just cannot stay on that track if we want to see things change, right? So instead of she can't drag him into recovery, she can't make him do stuff, but she can and needs to absolutely define, clearly define her safety needs, her boundaries around her wants and needs, her outside support system that does not depend on him in any way, and what her limits are in this whole thing. How long is she willing to keep doing this? And he needs to know what that looks like on a regular basis. And he gets to decide. I I love what she what she, you know, what what her message was, and this is kind of where we're gonna sort of wrap it up for for the partners listening. She she can't make him drink from the water, right? From the water trough of true empathy, repair, amends, recovery, healing. She can't make him drink from that, but she can decide how long she's gonna stand by the trough, dying first herself.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Well, and I would I would even go further than that. She can she can show him pictures uh progressively of how the trough is drying up the longer he doesn't drink from it. She can't, I mean, there are so use your voice. It's too many partners get caught in this dynamic. Well, and where we started of investing all this energy into things that they can't control. I'm gonna wheel him into change. No, invest that energy into your voice and and your own self-exploration and transparency. Because that, even though it's scary because it means you let go of control, it's the only thing that gives your relationship the best possible chance of succeeding. And if the relationship doesn't succeed, it at least allows you to be able to move forward and not get stuck. Not get stuck.

SPEAKER_01 39:02

Yeah. I remember the day my wife told me in essence, she was on her train of life. It was leaving the station, heading down her track of happiness, joy, fulfillment, peace, etc. And she would try to keep it at a speed that was reasonable while I decided if my train was going to head down a parallel track or not. But she said eventually her train was gonna be out of sight and too far down the track. But she wasn't gonna sit parked in the station waiting and being frustrated and broken and unfulfilled and stuck and you know, etc. etc. She said, My train's leaving the station. And I'll I'll give you regular reports on where it's at and its speed and how far it's heading.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Until I'm out of range, ergo this relationship ends, and then right. Everybody, we love you guys. We appreciate you. Thank you for your patronage of the podcast. As always, please come join us in Dare to Connect if you like what you hear here. DareToconnectnow.com. Grab a two-week free trial and come join us. Great time to join the program. There won't be a better one. If you would like to send us uh submissions for the podcast and are okay with an isolated, non-interactive snail mail response, um, and that works, then that's okay. You can send that in by going to the same website, DaretoConnectnow.com. Click on the PBSC podcast logo at the top, and there's a contact form there you can send those into.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

Yeah. As always, thanks for being with us. Appreciate and love all of you. Uh just deeply respect what you're what you're doing and and uh the courage you have. Uh we'll catch you next time on our next episode.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

Hopefully, we'll catch you in D2C.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

Yeah, we hope, yeah, we hope we catch you in D2C on Wednesday.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

All right, bye-bye. Everything expressed on the PVSC podcast are the opinions of the hosts and the participants and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of an individual qualified mental health professional. If you're experiencing thoughts of suicide, self harm, or desire to harm others, please dial 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.