From Shame and Survival to Honesty and Wholeness—Is Real Lasting Change Possible?

A person who has struggled with addiction for many years may begin to believe that he is uniquely broken and incapable of lasting change. Repeated relapses, betrayal, damaged relationships, spiritual conflict, and overwhelming shame can make recovery feel possible for others but not for him. Yet the return of addiction does not necessarily prove hopelessness. It often reveals that recovery has focused too heavily on stopping behaviors without fully addressing the underlying trauma, attachment wounds, unmet needs, emotional pain, and protective parts that continue driving the addiction.

Powerful spiritual experiences, emotional breakthroughs, and sincere desires to change can be meaningful, but they cannot replace daily recovery structure. Insight must be followed by action through proactive honesty, transparency, accountability, support groups, therapy when available, healthy self-care, emotional awareness, and consistent connection with trusted recovery people. Addiction thrives in secrecy, so lasting change requires revealing struggles before they become betrayals rather than confessing only after the damage has occurred. The addicted partner must also learn to respond to his betrayed partner’s triggers with empathy and responsibility instead of resentment, defensiveness, or a victim mentality.

Relationship healing cannot be rushed or created through communication tools alone. It begins with each person doing meaningful work on his or her own side of the street, while recognizing that the person who caused the betrayal carries a particular responsibility to rebuild safety through consistent behavior. As both partners grow, they can begin identifying the protective cycles that keep them trapped in conflict and gradually create a relationship built on truth, choice, accountability, and genuine connection. Real change is possible, but it does not occur through inspiration or recovery by osmosis. It emerges through repeated acts of courage, honesty, responsibility, and compassion that gradually move a person—and potentially a marriage—from shame and survival toward wholeness and mature love.

For a full transcript of this podcast in article format, go to:   From Shame and Survival to Honesty and Wholeness—Is Real Lasting Change Possible?

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Hey everybody, PBSC Podcast hosts Mark and Steve here with a special message about our revolutionary online recovery program for addict spouses and couples called Dare to Connect. Multiple times every week, we get messages from subscribers in the program. They're people just like you. They're trying to heal from the devastation of sex and porn addiction and betrayal trauma. And here's a few of our most recent submissions. Here's one from an addict in recovery. It says D2C has principles that everyone should utilize regardless of their circumstances. It doesn't matter your coping mechanisms, it matters that you want to work towards genuine connection with your partner.

SPEAKER_03 1:40

That's awesome. Another testimony from an addict continues on.

SPEAKER_04 1:53

Wow. The way Mark and Steve apply what they've learned is always so redemptive. D2C has opened doors for my relationship that I thought would be shut forever. Mark and Steve are an incredible resource of information on the subject of sex addiction and betrayal trauma. We could not do this journey without their help.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Here's one from a partner who's been with us for nearly a year. I want you both to know that it is because of you guys and D2C that I'm able to be in the place that I am today. I will always be grateful to you both for your feedback and prompt replies to my questions. I can't even come close to putting it into words how valuable my time spent with y'all this past year has been to my life. Thank you for everything you taught me about betrayal trauma and boundaries and thinking errors and loving myself and making myself a priority and standing up for myself.

SPEAKER_04 2:45

Love that. Love that submission. And then as we close out here today, guys, one more account from another addict in recovery. I wish I had a platform like this 14 years ago where I could have learned and done the hard work of recovery before I had done all this damage to myself and to my spouse. And to be candid with all of you, that's exactly why we created Dare to Connect. You know, Mark and I found ourselves in that place. You know, messages like these and the others like them, they're what Dare to Connect really is all about, guys, and why Mark and I do what we do. Whether you're an addict or a partner of an addict, and no matter where you find yourself in the recovery process, Dare to Connect can take you to the next level. Don't wait another day to catapult your recovery forward. Today is your day for change. Visit us at DareToconnectNow.com to pick up your free two-week trial of Dare to Connect today.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

Hey everybody, I'm Steve Moore. And I'm Mark Castleman. We know the pain and heartbreak of porn and sex addiction. And we know the triumph of breaking completely free. Every day we help our clients find hope and healing. Join us in the fight to take back your life, your marriage, and be stronger than ever. This is the PBSD Squared Podcast.

SPEAKER_04 4:36

It's great to be with all of you. This is episode 341, titled From Shame and Survival to Honesty and Wholeness. Is Real Lasting Change Possible? And I would kind of add on to the end of that, because this is the question we usually get from medics that's kind of inferred for everyone, right? Sometimes there's that terminal uniqueness that gets kind of attached to Mark, and I hear that frequently from guys like look, I know guys can get better from this, but like me, let me tell you my story. Let me tell you how bad I am. So even for this guy, is it possible? So let's talk about it. He uh, and we're gonna read this submission because it is fairly detailed and summarizing it might be a little problematic. Says, Hi, Steven Mark. Just wanted to start by thanking you for the work you do and for the way you help bring light into people's lives. We appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you for the kind words. Uh, light is something I desperately want, but there are times when desire when that desire grows dim and the addiction mind takes over, making the darkness feel easier to reach for than the light I truly want. So he's he's referring to right, light is recovery, darkness to addiction. I have struggled with addiction since I was a young teenager. It has caused a lot of pain and consequences in my life. Shame, suicidal thoughts, off and on, beginning around age 14, infidelity throughout my first marriage, and even even to the point where he says, I, you know, I I've been I've faced disciplinary action in my in my church, my ecclesiastical group, multiple times because of this. Um during my years as a single dad, so following the divorce from his first partner, I found God in a deeply beautiful way. I experienced his love and felt like I was finally becoming the person I wanted to be. But looking back, I think there was still unresolved trauma and pain that I hadn't fully healed from. A couple of years ago, I met an incredible woman. She knew that my struggle she knew about my struggles and my past, but I kept my fear that the addiction was still present hidden. At the time I was going through a faith crisis, I justified acting out sexually as part of a journey of self-discovery and spiritual searching, quote unquote, believing it might somehow help me find my way. But after we married, I found myself slipping back into addictive behaviors as as if that spiritual transform transformation had never happened. Somewhere along the way, I returned to old patterns without fully recognizing what was happening. Three months into our marriage, I cheated on my wife, a second wife, and it nearly destroyed her. Despite the pain that she has experienced in this, and despite some of the hurtful words that have come from that pain, she has worked hard to understand sexual addiction. She's tried to learn and carry this with me. I worry, though, because she has struggled to reach out for support and build her own network, uh, a support network is what I should say, even though I have encouraged her to do so. At times it feels like her reactions to her triggers are placed on me every time. Combined with the words spoken during painful moments, the short separations we have had, the conversations about divorce, and the struggles of blending our families together, recovering, and healing have felt incredibly difficult. Sometimes I find myself romanticizing the past, being a single dad, living a simpler life, and feeling less pain. We don't have children together, and sometimes healing on my own feels like it would be easier. Supporting a blended family has also created financial pressure, and affording consistent quality therapy has been difficult. But the truth is I miss God. I miss peace, I miss feeling connected, and I can't seem to find peace anywhere I go. My questions are one, what are the small daily things I can do to make recovery about healing, growth, and becoming whole instead of just trying to escape pain again? And then two, what two people have built when when two people, excuse me, have built both built walls and been deeply hurt, especially when one person has caused a lot of that hurt, how do you rebuild connection and fall in love more deeply than ever before? How do you create something beautiful after so much damage? I truly want to love my wife well. I want to feel deeply loved, be honest, and have a marriage built on trust and openness. I feel like I like I've experienced enough pain for several lifetimes. I'm ready to heal for for healing and for real lasting change. Thank you for listening and for the work that you do. So there we go. Submission from an addict. He's been on quite the journey to this point. One marriage, uh one marriage has already been uh in large measure a casualty of addiction. And now we're looking at a potential second. So a lot on the line here.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Yeah, yeah. And he I I mean I can relate to a lot of what he shared. Uh my deep addiction started about the same age that he that he uh indicates, age around age 13, 14. Uh suicidal ideation, you know, just the ups and downs of addiction, all of that. And so he struggled a long time. I mean, he doesn't say how old he is now, but uh, you know, his second marriage, it's probably decades, decades of addiction since age 14, uh, we would assume. Um and uh, you know, he it sounds like he uh amidst all of that that uh pain and trauma and difficulty and struggle, he has experienced some success, right? Uh some meaningful recovery, talks about some really good spiritual connection and personal transformation. But then I think what he expresses to us, I think is really important. He says that he's now starting to realize that the deeper trauma and the deeper emotional wounds may never have been fully addressed. That's a really important insight. When addiction keeps, you know, quote, rearing its ugly little head, you can be sure that there are underlying wants and needs, there are underlying things going on. Because if there weren't, this wouldn't keep coming up. If if you're really trying, if you're really desirous to get it out of your life, if you're really going through reasonable recovery efforts, and yet you find over time that it just keeps coming back, and coming back, what you can know with pretty much certainty, I haven't gone deep enough. I haven't addressed issues that are that are really at the core depth of this. And these symptoms keep showing up again. And that was very true for me. I thought I was in solid recovery, I had good sobriety under my belt, and then lo and behold, some some kind of life would hit me, some difficulty, some stress, some whatever, and it would all come flooding back. I'd be like, here we are again. And it it can really lead you to hopelessness where you just say, I guess I'm just crazy broken, terminally unique. No one, there's nobody like me. I am just gonna take this thing to the grave. It's hopeless. And I and I know what that feels like. And in some ways, you know, we've been we've uh we're doing a deep dive in the Dare to Connect program right now on what's called internal family systems. The that the internal family system you have within yourself, where wounded and and fractured little parts of ourselves break off through life experience, and we have these protectors that come forward to protect us from life. And frankly, one of those protectors that I had for a long time that would come forward to to guard me, my my little wounded, you know, little wounded boy and teenager was don't go deep. Don't look at the really crazy deep core issues, just keep firefighting the symptoms. I didn't want me to go deep because it was it was too painful a place to visit, and I'd learned to shut that down as self-protection. He may have some of that going on in his past, and uh it it I like to say it takes what it takes and it takes when it takes for you to be able to go there to that deep place. And maybe he's there now. I I hope so.

SPEAKER_04 12:27

Well, and when you look at this story, um, I mean there are multiple and we don't know much about his background, right, other than the little bit that he shared. But for globalizing this for all of you listening, we do commonly reference on this podcast, you know, uh traumas and wounding as being the source of addiction. Yep. And or a source, I should say. And that is absolutely true. In fact, we probably would say that's more common than not, uh especially when you look at the rules for trauma and what they what it means. It doesn't always involve huge catastrophes, although it's sometimes it can. But oftentimes, we even beyond the trauma piece, it is absolutely possible and probable, I would argue, for a person to become pulled into addiction when we start to meet core not addressed needs in unhealthy ways, and we and we become acclimated, and what would be the you know, we begin to orbit around for lack of a better term, the escape and the emotional payoff, right, that's associated with said behaviors because it does allow us to escape other needs, whether they're even trauma-based or not. Right? Trauma will create amplified deficits, it's it deficits within ourselves. It's true. For example, one of the core ones I talk about in here oftentimes is abandonment, right? Having big experiences as a kid and feeling abandoned. But you don't have to have humongous traumas to feel a sense of abandonment if you've never been either able to internalize or you've never experienced uh love from another person or from a core level of people, right? So it isn't all trauma, is trauma resolution is huge, and I completely agree with Mark on that side. But the other element of this as well, whether trauma is involved or not, and this is where it sounds like I suspect some of this recovery work on his part may have gone awry, is he talks about kind of having this, you know, spiritual awakening and and becoming more authentic and connected with himself, which is which is great. Um, and it sounds like in some ways that was meeting some of his core needs that had gone unmet before. But the question that I would immediately have if if I was seeing a gentleman like this in my office would be, what are your what what were the coping strategies you were employing alongside having these insights? Right? What other besides simply the simple the the spiritual exploration, what are the things were you doing to meet other internal needs or I at least identify them so that so that you could create long-lasting healing? In my experience for a lot of guys, that's where we tend to fall off. We we will have these amazing experiences, right? I I had some of those myself, whether it was spiritual insights or other kinds of other kinds of insights, and so I would make progress in some ways, but I would interpret that emotional progress as a recognition, well, I don't need to do the other things to meet to meet deep underlying needs on in an ongoing basis. Because see, I just had this insight, right? I went through my own emotional renaissance, so I'm I'm quote unquote good now.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Yeah, I I could really resonate with when he shared that because it's really easy to interpret, I mean, let's not discount them, powerful, powerful experiences.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

Absolutely, and it could be spiritual, it could be with a partner, it could be lots of things, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Could be in a could be in a recovery group for this for the first time, it could be right, lots of ways that we have these powerful spiritual, emotional, and even intellectual experiences. And I often interpreted those as this is the turning point. I'm good to go. I I'm right, I'm sailing, I'm sailing forward. Yeah, and often I was good to go until what happened, until life with its inevitable stresses and and curveballs and all the stuff that hits you, and now all of a sudden what you thought made you good to go through these experiences, you're back into your old habits.

SPEAKER_05 16:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

And then you get really frustrated, or he talks about being really down on himself. The shame hits you, the, you know, the hopelessness hits you. So we have to be careful to realize that powerful experiences are good. Our sincere intentions are good, but those are rarely enough to create last, you know, real and lasting recovery at a deep emotional healing. Uh and and and a and a and uh what's the word I uh a maintainable, right? Something that can be maintained in a structured way going forward.

SPEAKER_04 17:12

Well, and and and I think part of a big part of the reason for that, Mark, is that insight in of itself, no matter how amazing it is, right? At the end of the day is not a sustainable, structured element to recovery. It's a one-time event. Correct. Right? I I it's insight without action, or insight without structure, or insight without uh, you know, something that shifts in behavior will never be sustaining. I feel very confident that I could see the face of God today, have an amazing spiritual experience, but if I don't follow that up with follow that insight up with whatever truths he taught me or whatever I learned in that experience, or whatever it was we're theorizing here, right? No matter how profound that might be, unless I go forward and make changes that are reflective of that insight into again what are my core needs, my values, moving my setting goals and creating boundaries that that align me with a new trajectory, a new perspective, I'm gonna go back. Well, and he's just going to.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Yeah, he vulnerably shares something that that goes exactly what you're talking about. You know, one of the things you and I talk about is is the aspect of addiction of secrecy. We talk about this the secret sexual basement that we live in as attics, keeping all the stuff we do down there hidden from the the marriage partner or the family that lives in the, you know, lives in the on the floor above. And one of the things he says was in his new marriage, he kept his fears about uh his uh maybe even about his. Well, he said that he did tell her about the addiction going into the new relationship, but he didn't share with her his vulnerability around having great fears that he wasn't recovered, that he he still feared falling back into it. And he kept all of that to himself. And so that right there tells you, regardless of my intentions or powerful spiritual or emotional experiences, if I'm not making daily committed, strong progress of what we call honesty at all costs, transparency in all situations, I'm not on a sustainable recovery track. Right? That honesty and vulnerability, transparency is one of the one of the just bare bones basics of this working. And we're not going to get into it today. We've we've done this before here, and all the reasons why I fear being honest, why I hold back when I could be transparent or vulnerable, and what all that's about, and how it keeps me trapped in my addiction outlets, frankly. Right. So so all of them then and then what happened three months into his marriage, he he was unfaithful.

SPEAKER_04 20:13

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

And you could say, well, that was kind of a logical logical path that was leading to that because of what he describes.

SPEAKER_04 20:22

Absolutely, because again, the insight without some sort of action, right? Once the stress, for example, and this kind of ties us into, you know, he's questioning here, you know, sometimes and I we love his honesty, but he's talking about, you know, some ways I wonder if it'd just be better to not be in a marriage again. Right? I just go back to being a single dad, he says, and and so, so, and I'm not, I don't want to put words in this guy's mouth, but if I'm an addict in that kind of mode, there would be probably at least a small voice in my head that's saying, geez, marriage just isn't for me. Right? Or this coupleship isn't for me. Well, is it the coupleship that's the problem? Or if I'm being honest with myself, again, is it a lack of me bolstering myself, grinding myself, and taking action to be able to buoy myself up to resolve my own issues so that I can show up for a partner rather, or or is it really just the marriage? Yeah, right. And in most and I'll be honest with this guy and anyone else listening holding holding you holding addicts accountable, could there be genuine incompatibility here? There could be. But I don't think that a guy in this in a position like this and in the mindset that he's at with where she's at is in a position to know, frankly, whether or not there's an incompatibility issue. Because just based on what he sent, and maybe there's more going on that we don't know, it sounds like there's more work for him to be doing to discover his authentic self, figuring out who he is, and growing and developing sobriety and accountability and transparency around everything that's happened and is still ongoing before he'd be even able to examine that.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

Well, and you can, and I I could I could hear his frustration in what he submitted to us. We, you know, he talks about the fact uh, and I hope he knows how remarkable this is. If she, if, if he indeed did tell her about his addiction past and what ended his first marriage, and she she decided to go ahead and enter into the relationship, that's that's enormous. But but he also says she's worked hard to understand his sexual addiction. He then but then he comes out and does offer some some criticism. She struggled to build an independent support network on right, her own support system that's outside of him. And then he says something important. She often directs her triggered reactions toward him. Now that and and again, we don't have a lot of details, but I tell I'll tell you how that would have how that was for me. My wife's React my wife's reactions in triggering environments like me scanning in public or her seeing a woman similar to the one I had an affair with. You know, I didn't have an affair, but but but seeing things similar to things in my addiction. There's all sorts of things that trigger betrayed partners. And when we as addicts in recovery see that triggering in our partners, it's really easy to go to the place of frustration with them, resentment, uh, very much a victim mentality, right? It's all about me. Every time she's triggered, all the energy of that comes back on me. And we have to really be careful of going into this, you know, this victimhood place. And what does it mean to take responsibility and accountability for the damage that we've done and the continuing impact that it is having on our partners?

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

That's a big part of the recovery journey that he's talking about. You know, some things he doesn't really tell us what he's doing in his recovery. We don't know. Um, but you know, you said, Steve, it's great to have these enlightening experiences, but if you don't have a daily action plan, and we mean daily, where you are you are sustaining your efforts and and you're doing it in a way that you actually can sustain them. And you're doing it day after day after day, and and you will not stop, you will not break out of you. You know that it is essential that you do that as your number one priority. I don't get the impression that that's really what he's engaged with right now. Yeah, it might be more of these exceptional events that he's looking for to, you know, to get him into permanent sobriety, as opposed to the daily grind, the daily consistency, the daily doing. And and that might be missing from his life.

SPEAKER_04 25:10

Yeah, Mark and I we we talk often on here about whether it's these key insights that he's describing or other patterns. Sometimes we as addicts will go and Mark's talked often about his buying a thousand day planners, right? Oh yes, be could be caught in that preparation stage. Sometimes we look to these situations and scenarios to either give us insight or to give us a reprieve or to help us to feel something or whatever. But the reality is is that the work is is really where this stuff changes, right? Again, I can have the most insightful experience on planet earth. I could see the face of God, but unless I take what I learned from that experience and actually create a plan to function around it, 100% is going to fade. And I'm 100% going to go back because I'm 100% still lacking and have deficits in the areas that I had before said experience.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Well, and he says, you know, she won't get an outside support system. Uh, he doesn't tell us, but I would ask, what is his outside support system?

SPEAKER_04 26:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Does he have does he have a uh you know a 12-step group he belongs to? Does he have an accountability partner that he touches with base with every day? Does he do daily journal? Does he have a personal self-care routine? Is he leading out with daily couples check-ins with his partner? Right. We have lots of podcasts about what real recovery looks like from a daily effort standpoint. Is he is he engaged in all of that?

SPEAKER_04 26:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 26:43

I mean, and I'm just I'm just gonna, and I know we're getting close to wrapping this up, but I'm just gonna be real here. I I, you know, he talks about, you know, she's needing help, she doesn't have a support system. I can reference with that. My wife didn't get into recovery till two and a half-ish years after I did, because for the same reason. She's probably lacking insight into how that might be of benefit to her. She might be caught in a pattern that many partners without a knowledge base are are in with his problem, he needs to fix it. And that makes a lot of logical sense if you don't understand how addiction and trauma work. Um, it's hard to argue with that premise. But it it sounds like she's looking, she's needing more insight and support. I think he needs the same. They they talk about how therapy is really expensive, which it is. Mark and I charge $175 an hour to see clients in our clinics, um, as of the date of this writing, and that will probably go up sooner than later with the with with inflation and other factors that we're all subject to, right? But what if there was a place where you could go and get insight from someone like Mark and myself? Mark's probably the more of a benefit. I may be more of the deficit in that equation, but but for both of us, for better or worse, whatever that is, right? What if there's a place where you could go? Today in Dare to Connect on our couple session, we took a couple through an IFS breakdown of how their toxic, how their cycles between their protectors engage with one another and create toxic cycles in their relationship where even though they're working to try to save the marriage, those protectors are ruining it or harming it. What if there's a play and we and we and we were live interacting with them in the chat and mapping it out for that couple specifically? What if there's a I mean, that a therapy session like that with Mark and Steve would cost conservatively, based on the numbers I just gave you, 350 bucks for one hour. That couple's enrolled in our program right now for $295 a month, and they get access to 30 hours of content like that every month that's live and interactive, or 25, I think is what it is, in addition to advanced courses and all sorts of other videos to backup and support everything from the basics of recovery to advanced concepts. What if there was a place? Well, there is a place like that. It's called Dare to Connect. Get yourself into our Dare to Connect program. We understand that the economy is difficult. We understand that it can be difficult and it can be hard to uh navigate recovery from a financial perspective. Right now, I am involved in a sub in a group working on some of my own stuff because good therapists see good therapists. I uh I do a group once a month. It's $300 a month, it's once a week, and it's an hour and a half, and I consider it a steal. But at the same time, if I took that and extended that into how much content this program provides, guys, it's it's one subscription for two people. This is a no-brainer. If you have not tried a program like Dare to Connect, I would I would have to look inside myself and question am I really serious about this? If I'm not willing at least to try it. If you don't like it, don't stay. That's what the two-week trial is for. Please, for the love of God, leave. We would not want you to stay. But if you like it, if it resonates with you, don't find yourself don't to this couple, don't let this be a second marriage casualty. To any other couple listening, what's the next casualty on the list for you? What's the next thing on the line? I know I'm speaking with a bit of passion here, and maybe it's just because Steve's been doing some of his own work lately. But we just today's session, our couple session, was truly magical today. We had hundreds of people watching a couple work through deep issues, and they were all gaining insight as a result. I think, I think for everyone who attended that session live today, the 295 would have been worth the one hour out of all the hours out of the month to say nothing of everything else. Daretokonnectnow.com, please save your marriage. Come to Dare to Connect Not DaretoConnectnow.com, grab a two-week free trial, and come try it. If you don't like it, please don't stay. We'd rather you not. But if you do, we hope you will, and that you'll find healing and growth and you'll be able to move forward in this process.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

And it and it it that really ties into, you know, he he he says he has a longing for simplicity in his life. And part of his what I would consider his addict brain, not his authentic self, is saying, Well, maybe I should just go back to being a single dad to be more simple, it'd be a whole lot less hassle. And you have to look at that and say, okay, is that really genuine self-discernment of your wants and needs, or is that just another addictive avoidance?

SPEAKER_04 31:37

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Seeking relief from the discomfort rather than learning to to lean in, to stay present, to be accountable, to do the daily work. Right? He that's that's a big red flag if he's if his brain's telling him that he might want to consider, you know, consider that process. Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:57

Absolutely. And of course, we would honor and if if that's what he feels like he authentically needs to do, then so be it. We're not privy to his whole situation. But if I was working with this guy directly and I was people pay me, they pay Mark for our advice, our expertise, our experience, and our feedback. And if I was having that conversation with him in my office and he was going through and saying, Yeah, it would be easier, I would probably say the same thing that Mark just said. I'd say, Yeah, it would be. It would be easier, it would be a lot less stress, it would be a lot less strain. You know what else it would be? A lot less connection, a lot less evolution, and a lot less growth as an individual and as a person.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

And it would that trade worth it to you? It would just add to one more list of his failures. Correct. Right? Which is which we know that the shame that would come from that. Yeah, we he he he he asked a he asked an important question. He says, How do two deeply wounded people, especially when one of them caused most of the injury, how do they gradually lower their walls, rebuild safety, and develop a deeper and more mature love? This is probably not what he or a lot of guys out there want to hear, but here's the answer. That all starts and in large part is developed by your work on your side of the street. 100%. Too many people that want to jump right to the healing of the coupleship, right? Let's save this marriage, let's heal this marriage, let's heal these wounded people. You cannot make that jump. You cannot do it. You have to start with your individual work. And so I would invite him or anyone listening who's in this kind of a situation. Where are you? Are you engaging in your life in consistent honesty, consistently building your ability to show empathy, learning what it means to lead out and to lean in? Do you know what true accountability means or response ability? What's your support community? Are you regularly engaged with it on a daily basis? Um, right? All of these things, that's where this has to start. So that what he can show up with his partner, have being fully engaged in all of his individual work. You can't show up and be something that you're not. You can't show up and just fake it. You can't show up and try to use this tool or that tool in my relationship and think it's gonna fix things. I showed up with my wife for decades as a bucket full of holes that would just drain away, and then I would look to fill it either through my addiction outlets or through her. Every time I showed up, I was an empty bucket looking for her to fill it.

SPEAKER_04 34:45

And what else would run out those holes? Amazing spiritual experiences, just like what we're talking about here, right? These new insights, these new evolutions. Again, those those moments, those renaissance moments only work if you do something in your individual work and in your coupleship. Get your butt over to Dare to Connect, where we can help you with both at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

Yeah, let's do it. And he says he's he's he thinks that maybe he hasn't gone deep enough with his past trauma and with his past, his past issues. Okay, then do what you need to do to start going deep. Again, Dare to Connect is a great place to start that, right? Your sub your own support group, a sponsor in 12-step, an accountability partner. There are lots of ways to go deep. Yep, but you've got to start engaging in them and not just talk about it, right? Like my wife says, talk is cheap. Show me.

SPEAKER_04 35:41

Well, and not just experience because when we wait for those experiences, guys, I mean, what uh this is the term I use with my clients. It's like trying to do recovery by osmosis, and it just doesn't work. It's it's like back in high school when we all used to like sleep on our science textbook the night before a text, put it under your pillow and be like, well, somehow that'll somehow that'll get in there, that'll absorb into that. No, it won't. We've got to make the change, be the change. Uh, thank you all, as always. We wish this couple the best. We hope that to see them soon in Dare to Connect. We hope that they'll make some shifts. A relationship based on what we heard today is salvageable. Yeah, and not just salvageable. To answer his question, it can be amazing. You were so much, you're you're just your your marriage is everybody listening, your marriage is so much destined for so much more than just to like survive or just make it. Good God. I hope that we're all in these marriages and in these relationships and striving for this connection for more than just to be able to get to the end, just be like, Good Lord, we made it. Thank heavens. Like, you know, it's not a marathon, it's not a marathon in in strife, it's a journey in growth. It's it's uh take my hand and walk through this life with me, and let's be both be better as a result. Get your boss at Dare to Connect, and we'll help you do it. Uh DareToconnect Now.com. Um, as always, if you would like to send us questions through the podcast or to the podcast, you can go to that same website. And after you've clicked on signing up for Dare to Connect now through the free trial, then click on the podcast, uh, the uh podcast link up at the top, and you can there's a con that'll take you to a contact form. You can send that in to us as well. We're about seven-ish weeks or so backlog on those. We've been getting a lot of submissions lately, but uh grab the trial and talk to us Monday. We'd love to have you come to it. Um be safe, be well, everybody. Have a great uh we hope that the week goes well for you. And uh, we will catch you in our next episode and hopefully in the next session of Dare to Connect. Yeah, take care, everybody.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

Everything expressed on the PBSE podcast are the opinions of the hosts and the participants and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of an individual qualified mental health professional. If you're experiencing thoughts of suicide, self harm, or a desire to harm others, please dial 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.