He's Honest About Relapses, But His Spiraling Shame and Neediness Cycle is Exhausting!

The partner in this situation (Episode 343) recognizes that her husband’s honesty about two recent relapses represents meaningful progress after years of pornography use, self-gratification, betrayal, and deception. However, the aftermath of those relapses remains deeply damaging. He spirals into shame, discouragement, and self-condemnation, creating a heavy emotional atmosphere in the home and leaving her feeling responsible for stabilizing him while she is also trying to process her own grief and betrayal trauma. His requests that she pursue him, cuddle him, initiate affection, or make him feel wanted become especially painful when he later rejects her or questions whether her efforts are genuine.

Although unresolved grief, childhood wounds, and protective parts may help explain why addiction and shame become activated, they do not excuse the behavior or make his partner responsible for healing him. His shame functions like a bucket full of holes: no amount of external reassurance can fill what he has not learned to repair internally. When he seeks sexual or emotional validation from the person he has just harmed, he risks using her as a confessor, rescuer, and sexual absolver. Real accountability goes far beyond admitting the relapse. It requires him to tolerate difficult emotions, contact his sponsor, therapist, group, or recovery support, examine what led to the relapse, identify the deeper needs he was attempting to meet, and develop a specific plan for changing his recovery practices.

For the betrayed partner, healthy boundaries include taking physical or emotional space, declining to become his primary emotional regulator, and participating in affection or sexual intimacy only when it feels authentic and safe for her. She can acknowledge his honesty without taking responsibility for his shame, and she can refuse to remain in a cycle where she is asked to pursue him only to be rejected or interrogated. He does not need to be perfect, but he does need to stand up, lead his recovery, respect her healing process, and protect her from additional harm. Genuine connection becomes possible when he owns his recovery and she remains loyal to her safety, truth, boundaries, and healing.

For a full transcript of this podcast in article format, go to:   He's Honest About Relapses, But His Spiraling Shame and Neediness Cycle is Exhausting!

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:59

Hey everybody, PBSC podcast hosts Mark and Steve here with a special message about our revolutionary online recovery program for addict spouses and couples called Dare to Connect. Multiple times every week, we get messages from subscribers in the program. They're people just like you. They're trying to heal from the devastation of sex and porn addiction and betrayal trauma. And here's a few of our most recent submissions. Here's one from an addict in recovery. It says D2C has principles that everyone should utilize regardless of their circumstances. It doesn't matter your coping mechanisms, it matters that you want to work towards genuine connection with your partner. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Another testimony from an addict continues on. Dare to Connect has been far more useful to her than her degree. Wow. The way Mark and Steve apply what they've learned is always so redemptive. D2C has opened doors for my relationship that I thought would be shut forever. Mark and Steve are an incredible resource of information on the subject of sex addiction and betrayal trauma. We could not do this journey without their help.

SPEAKER_04 2:10

Here's one from a partner who's been with us for nearly a year. I want you both to know that it is because of you guys and D2C that I'm able to be in the place that I am today. I will always be grateful to you both for your feedback and prompt replies to my questions. I can't even come close to putting it into words how valuable my time spent with y'all this past year has been to my life. Thank you for everything you taught me about betrayal trauma and boundaries and thinking errors and loving myself and making myself a priority and standing up for myself.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Love that submission. And then as we close out here today, guys, one more account from another addict in recovery. I wish I had a platform like this 14 years ago where I could have learned and done the hard work of recovery before I had done all this damage to myself and to my spouse. And to be candid with all of you, that's exactly why we created Dare to Connect. You know, Mark and I found ourselves in that place. You know, messages like these and the others like them, they're what Dare to Connect really is all about, guys. And why Mark and I do what we do. Whether you're an addict or a partner of an addict, and no matter where you find yourself in the recovery process, Dare to Connect can take you to the next level. Don't wait another day to catapult your recovery forward. Today is your day for change. Visit us at DareToconnectNow.com to pick up your free two-week trial of Dare to Connect today.

SPEAKER_03 3:55

And I'm Mark Castleman. We know the pain and heartbreak of porn and sex addiction. And we know the triumph of breaking completely free. Every day we help our clients find hope and healing. Join us in the fight to take back your life, your marriage, and to be stronger than ever. This is the PBST Squared Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

He's honest about relapses, but his spiraling shame and or neediness cycle is exhausting. I can almost hear the dun dun dun, you know, after that title there.

SPEAKER_04 4:55

I couldn't relate. I could not relate to this at all.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

No, no. I I, for one, never went to shame and was definitely not needy with my partner after a relapse. So this guy's just out there and mark. Yeah, no, we're obviously we do it really well. This is the uh submission that this partner writes us in. I'm just gonna go ahead and read it quickly. She says, I want to thank you for your podcast and the work you do. It has been an incredible source of support and encouragement for me. Listening to your episodes has helped me gain ground in my healing journey, provide language for experiences I couldn't always articulate, and reminded me that I am not alone. For that, I am deeply grateful. We are grateful to you. Thank you for listening, and we hope that you'll come give Dared a Connect a try. More about that down the road here on the episode. Um she does want to say, My husband and I have been married for 23 years. He has struggled with pornography and self-gratification throughout our entire marriage. The last five years have been especially painful. After the loss of his father, his acting out behaviors increased, and the impact on our marriage has been significant. Recently, my husband relapsed twice within one week. What is different this time is that he is he was honest and transparent about both incidents. While the relapses themselves were painful, I am genuinely grateful for his honesty. I am not lying, minimizing, or hiding the truth as a relatively new dynamic in our relationship, and I recognize that as a positive step. One of the challenges, however, that we continue to face is what happens after a relapse. My husband tends to go into a deep emotional spiral filled with shame, discouragement, and self-condemnation. The atmosphere in our home becomes very heavy. I often feel like I have have to carry his his him emotionally while simultaneously dealing with my own pain, grief, and betrayal trauma. What healthy boundaries can I set when he spirals? I want to be supportive, but I don't want to become responsible for managing his emotions or neglecting my own healing in the process. Another area that leaves me feeling confused and heartbroken is that after a relapse, my husband often focuses on what I can do to help him. He asks for things like making him feel wanted, pursuing him, initiating affection, or cuddling when he desires it. Yet when I do initiate intimacy after a relapse, I am frequently rejected. He then spirals into questions about my motives, wondering whether I am pursuing him because I genuinely desire intimacy or simply because I think it's what he needs. This dynamic is exhausting. I feel caught in a no-win situation where I am asked to move toward him only to be pushed away. The rejection is painful, especially given the years of sexual betrayal and the vulnerability it takes for me to initiate connection. How can I navigate this navigate this dynamic in a healthy way? What boundaries, mindset shifts, or practical tools would you recommend for both of us? I would greatly appreciate any wisdom or insight you can offer. You know, this is a great submission for a lot of reasons. And I and I just want to throw out here before Mark gives some of his thoughts and we jump into this today. Even though this dynamic may not play out for a couple of if you're listening to today's podcast, following a relapse per se, the things that we're going to touch on today are critical, and there are issues that come up, whether it's post-relapse or not, when it comes to ownership around who is responsible for what in a relationship. Okay. Um, we Mark and I see these dynamics all the time with the clients that come into Dare to Connect, and we're able to help them one-on-one with that. We see it all the time in our individual clinics. And this dynamic that she's describing so well, as we've indicated more than once on this podcast, usually is what will kill a relationship quicker than even the betrayal in more cases than not. Because it is an absolute roller coaster, it's absolutely unfair, and it absolutely deepens and oftentimes amplifies the existing safety issues and betrayal issues already at play. So we hope that you'll pay close attention and figure out for the addicts listening to this. Um unless you are really far along in recovery, I would say that the chances are quite high that this in some form or fashion is has either recently or is currently playing a role in your relationship to some degree. So we hope that you'll look at it through that lens.

SPEAKER_04 9:02

Yeah, and I I love what Steve just said. It's you you could you could look at this and say, well, that's not what I do or we do after, you know, after relapses. He's not relapsing anymore, or I mean, fill in the blank. But this is this is a this is a roller coaster dynamic that happens in a lot of relationships, uh, not just with you know post-relapse, but we'll we'll talk about how it can apply in in in many ways. So stay with us. There's there's you're gonna find this is more applicable than you might think. I just I just wanted to say, I was I was amazed by this betrayed partners, her, her, her, her clarity, her balance, the compassion that she has for him. Uh, she's she's obviously done a lot of work to to keep herself in a in a good place. And she she doesn't she doesn't sidestep the reality though of the pain and and the need for boundaries. This I just hope this guy knows how blessed he is. Because just from this submission, this woman's amazing, as so many of you, uh all of you betrayed partners are are just so amazing to even be attempting this journey at all. And I that I was just really impressed. Like I like I am so much uh that with these partners that write into us. This is a huge deal, but this has been going on for 23 years, where he struggled with with pornography and and and uh self-gratification, as she as she wisely calls it, their entire marriage. Then then what so there's a 23-year history, then comes the death of his father uh uh over the last that was five years ago, and she describes how his acting out behaviors increased and the impact on their marriage was even more significant, right? Things palpably changed five years ago with the death of his dad. And we've talked a lot in these podcasts about what happens with first of all, how addiction gets started. Uh we've just we've just spent almost a month and a half in our Dare to Connect program on what we call internal family systems or IFS, which means when we're young and we face trauma or abuse or discouragement or embarrassment or all the different triggers that that hit us when we're growing up, we become wounded. And then these parts of us come forward to protect that wounded part. And these protectors form what's called an internal family system. And one of the protectors that comes forward, in fact, a number of protectors fit within the category of addiction. Why? Life gets hard, things happen, stuff is tough, and we discover, as as I did at the age of 13, uh sexual outlets, uh puberty, masturbation, and suddenly it becomes this go-to place to get away from all the hard things of life, to to to have pleasure hits whenever you want them, to avoid, to escape, to cope. And so that's all part of the that's all part of this, you know, the uh of the addiction side.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

100%. Well, and and and those who've listened for a while, I mean, that's when my addiction began was following the death of my father at 13 years old. Yeah. It was kind of a perfect storm, right? Of sexual curiosity, but then that, and I and I distinctly remember, you know, the first time acting out, which was incidental, it was a curiosity thing. I didn't know really anything about um addiction or even sex at the time. But you know what my brain does remember? I remember feeling free of the pain for the first time, even though it was just for a few minutes. And I remember after that, even though I didn't know what I had done, I do remember thinking two things. One, something felt not good about that, but two, it also felt really good, and we will be doing that again.

SPEAKER_04 13:02

Oh yeah. It just the the power of it to to make, as you said, the pain go away for even for a few minutes was was so it was palpable. You know, and and and you know, Steve, you you know with the death of your father when you're younger, and we we can only imagine all the things that came flooding in for this guy at the death of his father. You know, we often find, especially with the death of a parent, that a lot of our childhood things will come flooding back, uh, even if we're in our you know 40s or 50s or 60s with the death of a parent. It's it's a it's a very powerful psych emotional and psychological impact. And so you can only imagine how much this guy's you know brain's, his brain, his protectors, his old coping strategies, how they kicked into overdrive with the passing of his father. And she says, yeah, I she could she could see she could see the change. Now we wanted to as she was describing what happens uh with him and in their household after he relapses, this was like she had been, she she had somehow gotten a hold of one of my old journals and was I was reading because this was this was absolutely me. And a lot of guys that I've worked with um experienced this same thing. Uh and I and I just want to say uh as we talk about what what he you know how he shows up after a relapse, the positive side of that tells you that he really does care. There's a part of him that knows that what he's done is not genuine and authentic. It's not, it's he knows he's putting his partner through pain again, right? He's he's probably pounded his fist on the desk a thousand times, declaring that this, this, this relapse is the last time I'm ever going to do that. Because he goes through all of this after a relapse, it shows that there is a the authentic, true, deep core part of him really doesn't want this in his life. Because you and I've worked with other guys where you know they come kicking and screaming because their partner demands they get into recovery, but I've had guys where they didn't they didn't feel any remorse after a relapse at all whatsoever. I mean, nothing. And so the fact that he is going through this really powerful psychological, you know, uh reaction, it that says some good things. Now, having said that, this this will this will throw the addict's life, his partner's life, and their family's life and their home into absolute chaos with what she's describing. Right. So, what does she say? That uh after relapse, he he goes into this deep emotional shame spiral. He's completely discouraged. He's he's he's in self-condemnation. I used to call it I I would go into self-flogging mode, right? Get out of my whip and my cat of nine-tails and just myself to a pulp. And so she says the atmosphere in their home becomes really heavy. And my wife described that. She said, Man, after you would relapse, you would go into a dark place and it would it would impact the entire energy of our household. And everyone, now they didn't know my my kids, for example, didn't know what I was going through, but they knew something was up. And then what happens? My wife would come forward just as this partner expresses, and she now suddenly feels completely responsible to kick carry all his emotional stuff and baggage while at the same time dealing with the fact that he's betrayed her once again. Right? So it's this double burden.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

Well, and I think what complicates things even more in this particular situation is that he's he will be placing, you know, the burden on her in some ways of saying, hey, I need you to make me feel okay, right? More or less. And in some ways, for example, sexually or in other ways or in other ways, which frankly is an is both unhealthy and inappropriate following a relapse. It's unhealthy because we're turning to some sort of a sexual outlet to once again rescue us from pain from sexually acting out. So there's a whole dynamic there that is toxic, not healthy, and frankly, stands as it stands a very real chance and a high likelihood. So you are now using your wife as a sexual outlet with your addiction. The second piece though, that make so as if that isn't difficult, too difficult, or I guess you could say detrimental enough. The other side is he's trying to engage, but he isn't doing any sort of work around the self-esteem, self-worth, or other confidence issues that accompany his shame. And so he's asking for things not only that he shouldn't be, but then on top of it is actually rejecting her or calling her into question when she tries to accommodate. So we have kind of like these multiple layers of betrayal that are going on. Um, and I don't think in this particular case, when she says that this is exhausting and gonna kill her, it 100% is.

SPEAKER_04 18:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Do you see how I mean we uh for you as listeners, do you see how this partner through no fault of her own, he goes through a relapse, and as and rather than her healing or taking space or him moving into a place of trying to support her following that, he's not just becoming more needy. He's taking her on this whole emotional dramatic roller coaster that is frankly all a projection of his own internal insecurities and inadequacies and and lack and and lack of self-worth and and other self-esteem issues. In other words, his protectors are running wild, and she is being pushed or or or feeling the pressure to be in a place to somehow manage those for him, if we're talking about IFS, you know, terminology.

SPEAKER_04 19:06

And what's being described is typical with with the whole addiction cycle. It it's confusing. He he as an addict is confused inside because what does she say? He he he relapses, then he he goes into into self-flogging and shame and discouragement, then he looks to me to rescue him from all that, to affirm him and to show him affection and cuddle with him. And then when I try to answer that request, he rejects me. And people go, that sounds crazy. Why? Yes, it is crazy. Welcome to welcome to the addict mindset. He inside, he doesn't know what he wants. He wants this one minute and he wants that one minute, and it's it's utter and control complete confusion and contradiction. Welcome to the addict brain. And so he's pulling her into his chaos as opposed to him seeking all the things we talk about here all the time with his outside support system and how to manage this process.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

Well, and to be fair, because we got to talk about responsibility, right? He obviously is asking for things that are highly inappropriate and and and it breaks our heart because Mark and I can relate because you most of you know our story by this point. Our our spouses did the same thing. She's being pulled into a place or allowing that pressure from him from a place of wanting to love him or be supportive. She's compromising herself in multiple ways.

SPEAKER_04 20:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

Stepping into a sexual place when maybe she, for example, and we don't want to speak for her, but maybe that doesn't feel authentic for her. It doesn't feel authentic to most spouses that, oh, you just relapsed looking at porn and masturbating. Yeah, I'd love to step in and have sex with you now. That doesn't feel authentic for most partners, right? On multiple levels. I don't want to be used, but also, I mean, from uh, and again, it's not her job to run his recovery, but you are feeling the impact and the consequences and the outcome, the emotional outcomes of you engaging inauthentically and breaking boundaries with me. And now you're proposing a solution that means that I should compromise myself sexually or put myself in a place of further vulnerability following that betrayal in order to support you. And then the third layer, it's like a multi-layer cake. And I'm going, and you're asking, and on top of all that, you're asking me to do that with the understanding that there's a very good chance that if by some miracle I can step into that place authentically, then you might turn around and reject me for trying. Like there are so many layers going on here right now that it's kind of difficult to quantify. And I mean, there's lots that we want to we want to talk about this. And so let's just talk about this. Is I mean, first of all, what what's going on here first and foremost? I think it's pretty clear that this guy is, and and again, we love him. We we understand because we can connect with it. But he, when these feelings of shame, guilt, remorse, and that kind of that semi-toxic soup of feelings comes up following, he is trying to pull his wife into both a confessor and sexual absolver. Okay. Meaning, I want you to make it okay, whether it's through sex with me or otherwise. I want you to make me feel enough. I've engaged in behaviors that compromise myself and expose myself emotionally, and I'm trying to pull you into that. And and to state what is probably obvious to many that is not one within a partner's capacity. Okay, let's talk about that first. No part, I don't care how good you are at sex, all you partners out there, or how good you are at other forms of rescuing, you can't make him come come out of shame sexually otherwise. It's not possible. It's not possible. You're talking to two guys who tried that with our partners. We know that because the research shows it, we know that because of our training teaches it, we know that because our personal experience has demonstrated it. There is nothing that you can do or say as a partner that is going to affirm him enough to compensate for his own internal shame. Because shame by definition. Is an internal deficit. It's not something that can be right. The ship cannot be righted when it comes to shame by someone externally. Well, navigating is an internal journey.

SPEAKER_04 23:10

If you want to get some insight into why he, you know, he he craves and and and and yearns for her to come and make him okay, but then rejects her when she tries to do it. And that sounds really confusing to people, and it is. But let me tell you from personal experience why it works that way. So I'm coming off a relapse. I've violated all my internal values, I've betrayed my partner once again. I've engaged in in all the stuff that I said I would never do again. So now I'm I'm in a completely psychologically psychologically collapsed place. And I start to do what addicts do, which is to look outside myself to someone else to come and rescue me, to fix me, to solve it. And so she steps in to try to do it, but what happens? And I can I can just tell it's this partner, she's probably very caring, very nurturing, very attentive. And so she tries all the things that he's that he's asking or demanding, but now what happens with him? It doesn't rescue him. He's still feeling the same same feelings of shame. He's still down, he's still discouraged. And so now after she's tried that, now he goes to even a deeper, darker place, and that's when he turns on her and rejects her. It quote didn't work.

unknown 24:28

Right?

SPEAKER_04 24:28

So now inside his protector saying, now what do we do?

unknown 24:32

Right.

SPEAKER_04 24:32

And then he doubles down. And it is totally confusing to those to those around him, and probably to him too.

SPEAKER_02 24:39

Well, and and and again, we're not we're not harping on this guy, but we just need I just need to be as pointed with this as possible. It is not your partner and any addict listening who relates to this. This is not your partner's job ever, in any situation to quote unquote make you feel good or feel okay. A partner is supposed to be a support, not somebody who emotionally regulates or governs you. Not only that, it would not only, and that's why we say it's inappropriate, but it's also impossible. Because what he's looking for is he is he is is he's looking for affirmation and support from her, which because of his lack of internal work, he can't receive no matter how much he wants to. I'm gonna say that one more time. He he can't receive it. You can see it in the pattern. His own shame is like an emotional anti-aircraft gun. Every time she tries to throw out the sexual bid for it connection through affirmation, or what you're wanted, you're enough, you're whatever. What is his what is his shame do? Shoots it down, just shoots it down. He is not doing the work internally to fix those things. And so he, no matter how much he may even want to accept that from her, he will never be able to in his current state.

SPEAKER_04 25:51

He won't. My early mentor, he said, Mark, you you can never you can never fool that deep core and in internal part of yourself. It knows when you're when you're being lazy or or or faking it or or you know not doing your part or whatever. It knows. And so she's coming trying to trying to make up for all these deficits. And inside himself, he's saying, I I know that I'm not doing my part. I know that I'm not doing the work. I know that I'm not, I'm not stepping up.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

And well, it goes even deeper than that, though, doesn't it, Mark? Because it's also the shame. I'm just broken and no one can convince me otherwise. I'm inadequate and will never be enough. I I can't I can't measure up as a husband or as a father or as a or as a whatever. And again, shame and pride have one thing in common. They're both experts, quote unquote, in the room. They both reject out external input and in that one specific way are completely narcissistic in their mindset.

SPEAKER_04 26:47

That's true. That's true.

SPEAKER_02 26:48

And so and so it goes beyond even just that that piece. It goes to that place of again, she could show up and in the most crazy outlandish sexual way possible, and he may feel amazing for about 30 seconds, maybe a minute, if she's lucky a day. And he's gonna be right back to where he is right now because he is not, he has to step up and recognize that those internal deficits are something that are his responsibility to manage. His shame is something that he needs to regulate and and work through. He needs to do the work to uncover where these shame-based voices come from. What twisted warp version of accountability has convinced me that this kind of self-flogging or beating myself up is going to initiate change because it won't. Yeah. Right? Now that's a whole other podcast. It is, it is we don't have time to get into that.

SPEAKER_04 27:37

And we and maybe another analogy that will help everyone listening. I mean, uh, we talk about showing up as guys trying trying to be in recovery. We show up as a as a bucket full of holes, right? An emotional bucket that is full of holes. Our partner fills it up, and before we know it, it's it's drained again because it's it's filled with holes. We have to go do the work to plug the holes. We have to go do the work so that the bucket can we can fill that bucket through our own efforts and our own support system so that we can show up with our partners as a filled up bucket, right? But when this this neediness is is the constant thing under the surface, we're just I I was full of holes for decades. And my partner would do everything she could to fill me up, and I would just drain it out and drain it out.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

Well, and that's why this is so critical for this to start why why we're being so, I guess you could say, strong on this podcast to this addict and to any part partner or addict dynamic that finds themselves in this situation. When we say that this will kill the relationship statistically quicker than the acting itself, that's not hyperbole. That's reality.

SPEAKER_04 28:48

That's a fact.

SPEAKER_02 28:49

It almost happened in our both of our marriages. We see it happen with coupleships all the time. This this kind of dynamic where there's this lack of healthy ownership and over-ownership and and not recognition and and and working on the shame and the and the other elements. This partner is going to find herself waking up one day sooner than later, one day, just finding herself unable to navigate this. She will leave. And it won't be because she doesn't love him or care. It's because she can't stay anymore. She is emotionally spent and completely drained. That's why we're imploring here. And he and he's going to be left sitting there wondering why and feeling like the victim, and and and and still in that exact same place that he finds himself in today. And we'll probably go even deeper into that same shame. It has to be addressed now. And it not not to say that you can completely do that without sobriety, but that needs to be tackled for any coupleship that recognizes this dynamic, just as strong, if not stronger, than the sobriety issue. Yeah. It's that important.

SPEAKER_04 29:51

And we've we've done podcasts, you you know, you can go do a search on our site for past podcasts about what real recovery looks like, uh, what to do after relapses, but uh, but we'll mention a few things here because what he needs to be asking himself, what what all of us guys in recovery need to continually be asking ourselves is what does proactive leading out recovery look like? Right? Who is accountable? Who is who is who is able to account and who is risk who is able to respond responsible for my emotional stability and my well-being? Who is that? It's it has to be me.

SPEAKER_02 30:34

We'll give you a big hint. It's not your partner.

SPEAKER_04 30:36

It's not your partner, right? And so what does what does leading out look like for this guy? How does he start to take on the full responsibility and accountability for himself, his sobriety? What does he do, for example, after a relapse? There's a whole there's a whole support system and process in place for what a guy does after a relapse.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

Well, and we'll tell you the first and foremost thing, and this is part of my wife's boundaries. We've talked about it on here before, is the first person you go to should not ever be your partner after a relapse. It shouldn't. Nope. That feels accountable, it feels good. Guess what? You're way too shame-based, you're way too reactive, you're way too lost puppy dog mode, to actually show up and be accountable, even if you want to. You showing up mopey and and and something like this, whether it's externally or internally, and I just I don't know what happened. I just I just went out and relapsed. It's nonsense. That sounds and I know I'm speaking with force here today, but that is I'm I'm just talking pop I'm talking forcefully because I used to do that and think that that was accountability. That's not accountability. No, that's showing up emotionally immature. That's not ownership. You may have been taught that that was ownership, but it's not. Being able to be take ownership is being able to work it out to hold to hold on those to those hard feelings and process it out with somebody else from your recovery circle. What actually and it goes with accountability goes way beyond, hey, I relapsed, or hey, I touched myself, or hey, I looked at porn. It goes all the way into why did I do that? Where was my recovery off base? What things did I do or not do for the 72 hours leading up to that relapse that contributed to this? And what is my game plan for resolving it that looks different than what I did before? How is this going to actually be different? And what commitments am I willing to make to actually make that happen? Showing up and and looking to your partner like some sort of emotional confessor and absolver to do that is not that that is not recovery and it's not accountability. It's toxic.

SPEAKER_04 32:50

I used to I call I called that using my partner as my dumping ground. 100% to just to just dump on her. And everything Steve just described, I hope, I hope that all of you listening heard that. After a relapse, there's all of those steps that we go through as guys in recovery, right? We go back, we retrace, we put on our, I call it put on my Sherlock Holmes hat with my magnifying glass to go back and trace and track everything that led up to that. Why did it happen? What were the underlying core reasons, not just the outward behavior itself, that's a symptom. What is under this? What wants and needs, legitimate wants and needs that I have deep that I have deep down? And part of me thought that that old that old way was the only way to get them met. You work all that out, you you you put it in writing, you come up with a plan, you do all of that, and then you go to your partner to present all that work that you have done.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

To put it in a more creative terminology, I liked how Mark said it as a dumping ground. You don't dump that shit at your door at your wife's doorstep. You put on your goal, your shit galoshes and you go shit trudging through it, and you find the nuggets of truth in there. It's not her job to do that. She's already been hurt and wounded by what you've done. We as addicts really, really show we we can be really egocentric in these kinds of situations. And and and we don't realize we're doing it, but it is. What in what world would it be fair to say, hey, I'm so sorry I just stabbed you in the back and and did all this? I'm I'm really sorry. Can you can you help me understand why I did it? Or can you make it okay for me to keep stabbing you? Or can you that sounds insane? It is insane. We it guys, as addicts, we need to stand if we're serious about this process, it is time for us to own up and say, you're right, that is my dagger, and I did it, and it's not okay, and it's my job to figure it out while you go to the hospital and you get patched up, and I'm gonna take space and I'm gonna figure out what this is so that I can come back and actually own this with you with a plan that says how I'm going to actually do this differently, instead of just doing the same guilt-ridden confession bullshit, frankly, that we do. I mean, I again I know I'm being powerful with this today, and a part of it's because I've done this, but we are saying this with force guys because we see relationship after relationship die because of this dynamic. She leaves and doesn't know why, and he feels abandoned and doesn't know why. And the reason why is exactly what we're talking about here. Partners need an addict partner, they don't need him to be perfect. I hear this from partner after partner. I don't need him to be perfect, I need him to really stand up, be a man, for lack of a better term, and take ownership. And that means more than just confessing, it means running the show with recovery, recognizing where things need to change and creating a plan to shelter me from his ongoing harm rather than simply just trying to die on the vine and say this is what happened, and so sorry, it's probably gonna happen again because I'm in eewer mode and you haven't pulled me out of it yet again. And so it's your job now to to take me on and take on all. I mean, anyway, I'm I'm gonna start looping here.

SPEAKER_04 36:09

So too much. That's now as we wrap up, she she she does, and we've she asked, what boundaries, mindset shifts, or practical tools would you recommend for her and for him and for them? We've we've gone over the ones for him. Yes, what boundaries and mindset shifts and tools would we recommend for her?

SPEAKER_02 36:27

First and foremost, take space. I in the in our production notes for today, I didn't say ask yourself if you need space. No, you need space. Take space.

SPEAKER_04 36:37

Let's talk about what that means. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_02 36:38

Yeah, how much of what that looks like is a different discussion, but that should be the very first thing, right? My partners made it very clear, for example, to me. If a relapse were to happen, I'm 13 years sober. But if that were to happen, there's a very clear protocol in place. I don't, I come to talk to Brittany within 24 hours. I do not address her until I have figured I have talked to somebody else in group about it, I've processed through the shame about it, I've figured out what the core causes and conditions were for it, and I have some sort of a game plan to present to her that I'm actually willing to commit to to talk about uh and and to share with her about it. Those are all prerequisites, and I would strongly recommend that every partner here adopt those as core rules in addition to anything else that you need. The second thing would be taking space for you and your healing. Even if he shows up that way, maybe you just need a break from his emotional immaturity, for lack of a better term. Right? Get yourself to the hospital, whatever that looks like for you. Spending time with friends, connecting with your recovery group, uh, getting some sort of self-care in. And if he is halfway serious about this process and really authentic about it, part of him actually being accountable to you is gonna be making space and resources available to do that. That should be a really clear litmus test for partners about how serious he is about this.

SPEAKER_03 37:56

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 37:56

Because if she says he needs space, he's going to be, he's gonna be willing to take that on and accept that. And rather than going into puppy dog mode of no, you need to make me better, he's gonna recognize that and say, you know what, you need that. And that's okay.

SPEAKER_04 38:09

I'll do whatever we I'll do whatever I gotta do for you to be able to have that renewal, that recharging, that space. You know, what what financial resources do you want? Do you want me to go and make the reservations at the hotel? Do you I'll I'll do whatever it takes.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

Yeah. This is this is my issue to fix, not yours. Your job is to get yourself to the hospital, not to be mine.

unknown 38:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:35

So anyway, well, as we so we and we know this is this is hard to hear.

SPEAKER_03 38:41

It is, it is. I've been I've been pretty into it today.

SPEAKER_04 38:44

This has been been me years ago. I'd have been like, you know what, Steve, you know, up yours, man.

SPEAKER_03 38:52

100%.

SPEAKER_04 38:53

It's hard, it is hard to hear, but guys, it's so important. The reason that we get so passionate about this is because we know every one of you guys listening, no matter where you are in your recovery or not in recovery or whatever it is, there is an awesome, amazing dude inside there.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

You're wired to stand up and be accountable, guys. You are guys are you're wired for that.

SPEAKER_04 39:17

We want you to start to step forward and be the real true you. The higher you, the better you. It it's we we know you can do that, and we see it. We see your potential, we see who you are at your core. The fact that you're even listening to this podcast tells us how much you care about these issues.

SPEAKER_02 39:35

Or still listening and haven't told Steve to go after himself. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 39:39

So we we believe in every guy listening, and that's why we get so passionate. 100%. We and our hearts absolutely go out to all of the Betrayed partners. You amaze us every every single day. I guess the final closing thing is if you're if you're still struggling, if you don't know how to figure this out, if you still have lots of questions and things just don't seem to get better, come on over here and join with us in the Dare to Connect program.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

Dare to freaking connect, guys.

SPEAKER_04 40:09

I mean, come yeah, five, five live sessions a week. And if your schedule doesn't fit that, you can listen to all of it recorded, lots of homework assignments, lots of resources. This is this is serious, this is a serious, serious deep dive in the trenches program. And while this podcast can help, where we can really help you uh at the deepest in the trenches level is in our program. So we invite you to come on over, try it out for a couple of weeks free of charge. We'd love to, we'd love to get deeper in all this with you. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 40:42

Everybody, we hope that you have a great rest of your week. Be safe, be well, take care of yourselves, take care of one another in a boundaried way. Find what you're finding and and seek it. And we hope to see you soon in Dare to Connect. As always, you can you can also send in submissions to us through the podcast uh by going to the same website, daretoconnectnow.com. And after you sign up for the free work trial, click on the PBSC logo up at the top, and that's where you can send in your contact form submission to us after you've signed up for the trial. So, guys, have a great week, all right? Yeah. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

Everything expressed on the PBSC podcast are the opinions of the hosts and the participants and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of an individual qualified mental health professional. If you're experiencing thoughts of suicide, self harm, or a desire to harm others, please dial 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.