After his Gaslighting, Betrayal and Integrity Abuse, My Intuition is Broken!

Episode 344—Long-term betrayal and integrity abuse can severely disrupt a betrayed partner’s ability to trust her own perceptions. After repeatedly sensing that something was wrong, being told she was mistaken, and later discovering that her intuition had been accurate, she may become intensely hypervigilant. When a new concern arises—such as inappropriate boundaries with a coworker—she may feel certain that more occurred while simultaneously questioning whether her nervous system is simply expecting the worst. This confusion does not mean she is irrational or broken; it means her natural intuition has become entangled with fear, traumatic memory, grief, and protective vigilance.

Polygraphs, formal disclosures, accountability systems, and additional facts may be valuable parts of the recovery process, but they cannot become the sole source of safety. No test is perfectly accurate, and even a favorable result may not quiet a traumatized brain that has learned to distrust reassurance. The betrayed partner’s Information-Gathering or Investigator Part may believe that enough details will finally guarantee she is never blindsided again, but complete certainty is impossible in any relationship. Healing does not mean returning to a pre-betrayal state or forgetting what happened. It means carrying the past differently, allowing its meaning to change as both partners develop new skills, boundaries, support systems, and patterns of behavior.

The partner can begin rebuilding intuition by observing progressive evidence rather than depending on promises or perfection. She can watch whether her spouse is proactive in recovery, transparent, accountable, emotionally grounded, open to feedback, connected to support, and willing to maintain appropriate boundaries without being managed by her. At the same time, she can strengthen her own identity, self-worth, emotional grounding, support network, and confidence in her ability to respond if betrayal happens again. Her job is not to police his recovery but to become increasingly capable of seeing the relationship clearly and freely choosing whether to remain in it. Her intuition has not disappeared; with time, support, verification, and self-trust, it can be retuned into a wiser and more resilient source of discernment.

For a full transcript of this podcast in article format, go to:   After his Gaslighting, Betrayal and Integrity Abuse, My Intuition is Broken!

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:59

Hey everybody, PBSC podcast hosts Mark and Steve here with a special message about our revolutionary online recovery program for addict spouses and couples called Dare to Connect. Multiple times every week, we get messages from subscribers in the program. They're people just like you. They're trying to heal from the devastation of sex and porn addiction and betrayal trauma. And here's a few of our most recent submissions. Here's one from an addict in recovery. It says D to C has principles that everyone should utilize regardless of their circumstances. It doesn't matter your coping mechanisms, it matters that you want to work towards genuine connection with your partner. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Another testimony from an addict continues on.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Dare to Connect has been far more useful to her than her degree. Wow. The way Mark and Steve apply what they've learned is always so redemptive. D2C has opened doors for my relationship that I thought would be shut forever.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Mark and Steve are an incredible resource of information on the subject of sex addiction and betrayal trauma. We could not do this journey without their help.

SPEAKER_03 2:10

Here's one from a partner who's been with us for nearly a year. I want you both to know that it is because of you guys and D2C that I'm able to be in the place that I am today. I will always be grateful to you both for your feedback and prompt replies to my questions. I can't even come close to putting it into words how valuable my time spent with y'all this past year has been to my life. Thank you for everything you taught me about betrayal trauma and boundaries and thinking errors and loving myself and making myself a priority and standing up for myself.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Love that submission. And then as we close out here today, guys, one more account from another addict in recovery. I wish I had a platform like this 14 years ago where I could have learned and done the hard work of recovery before I had done all this damage to myself and to my spouse. And to be candid with all of you, that's exactly why we created Dare to Connect. You know, Mark and I found ourselves in that place. You know, messages like these and the others like them, they're what Dare to Connect really is all about, guys. And why Mark and I do what we do. Whether you're an addict or a partner of an addict, and no matter where you find yourself in the recovery process, Dare to Connect can take you to the next level. Don't wait another day to catapult your recovery forward. Today is your day for change. Visit us at dare2connectnow.com to pick up your free two-week trial of Dare to Connect today.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

I'm Steve Moore. And I'm Mark Castleman. We know the pain and heartbreak of porn and sex addiction. And we know the triumph of breaking completely free. Every day we help our clients find hope and healing. Join us in the fight to take back your life, your marriage, and to be stronger than ever. This is the PBST Squared Podcast.

SPEAKER_03 4:36

Good to be with you. This is episode 344. Yeah. After his gaslighting, betrayal, and integrity abuse, my intuition is broken. How do I discern the truth? That is a powerful title. And we know that there is a lot contained in that title, and our hearts go out to all the betrayed partners listening. Let me read what this particular partner sent into us. And this is this is unfortunately it's it's it's way too common. But let's read this and then we're gonna we're gonna get into some hopefully what we hope will help. Hey guys, long-term listener of your podcast, and I want to thank you both for being such a source of knowledge and validation of my experience as a betrayed partner over the years. You're very, very welcome. I have a question I really feel alone with, as I have not been able to find any advice for people in my particular situation. If you could please help me with this, I would be so grateful. My question is: how can I heal from betrayal and the uncertainty I have about the past when a polygraph from my addict partner is not an option due to his medical condition? I've been married to a porn addict for 15 years, who has now been sober for the past three years, and started doing real recovery work about three months ago after I burned out from his defensiveness and lack of ability to empathize due to his team. He's doing much better with this now, but I am still I am still struggling and feel stuck. For the 12 years prior to him getting sober, we had multiple discovery days, lots of lying and manipulation, broken promises, failed recovery attempts, and repeated efforts by myself to heal and trust again, only to be let down over and over again. My betrayal trauma is a daily battle with a nervous system that is so hyper-vigilant, it takes most of my energy just to try to stay regulated. And it can be highly overreactive to things that logically I know are not really an issue. Then she goes on to say a few months after quitting porn, my husband disclosed to me that he had been allowing inappropriate flirting with a co-worker who then approached him wanting to take things further. He swears there was nothing more to it than having than him having weak boundaries around inappropriate comments. But my gut was convinced in that moment that there was more to it. I don't know if I'm right or if that was just my nervous system jumping to the worst possible conclusion. I've been gaslit and I've gaslit myself so many times in the past, only to find out later that my intuition was right all along. But I can also be hypersensitive to signs of betrayal even if they aren't there. This has left a huge risk in my ability to heal because I can't trust my own gut or intuition without feeling sure that he cheated on me. And he swears he didn't. I have no evidence that he did. And the fact that he came forward and told me about the situation with the coworker makes me think that he's being honest, but I'm scared to trust it. I feel like I am at a particular disadvantage because a polygraph for him is not an option due to his genuine health issue. Is there a second option for us? I want to finally heal for good this time, now that my husband is actually showing up in the way I have been needing him to all these years. Thank you for your time.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Wow. It's really good submission. And and it does bring up some some points. Um, you know, uh, Mark and I, in in the course of our work, whether it's but whether for those who aren't aware, uh whether it's attached to a formal disclosure process, a therapeutic disclosure, or sometimes in other cases, uh sometimes the use of a polygraph uh to assess truth can be a helpful part of the process in terms of giving right additional additional, I guess you could say evidence, right, or credence as to an addict's truthfulness or lack thereof. Um it is important though that we start this uh and recognize that this partner is uh is obviously in a very, very difficult spot. I mean, we're coming up on years and years and years of half-truths, gaslighting, um, uh a whole relationship where every time she feels like she finds solid footing, then the bottom falls out, right? And here we are, just very recently. He may not have cheated on her from the definition that she's using or a definition uh of that, but clearly there were some missteps and significant boundary breaks, whatever you want to term it. And so once again, her safety is is called into question and on the back of everything else that's happened. I mean, she's I mean, I would say given that given that background, I think that if she did not question whether or not he was telling the whole truth if there wasn't more to the story, I think I would probably question her trauma response and if that part of her brain is was broken somehow. Because I I think that the questioning is is healthy. Now the question becomes, what do we what do we do about it? So let's let's talk about the polygraph first of all, because she looked, she says, you know, usually in a situation like this, I'd look to a polygraph to what we hear her saying right in her submission is a polygraph would be something that could create safety for me in this situation, but he can't do it because of an unspecified health condition, and we don't know what that is. But uh it's it's it's a good opportunity to have the same discussion with all of you as listeners that Mark and I will have with partners when we and addicts when we do do a polygraph as part of therapy for whatever reason. Okay. Polygraphs have become progressively accurate over the years. Um, I think the last time that I saw a statistic about it, I think they have like a an 87%, I think what it was, yeah, 87-ish percentage accuracy rate. Um obviously that depends on lots of factors, the polygrapher, the person, all these other things, but um, but they but they they have gotten better over the years, but they are not currently, nor will they ever be a hundred percent accurate.

SPEAKER_03 11:08

It's not possible.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

The other thing that you have to keep in mind with a polygraph as well is because of the way that a polygraph works, and we won't get into the reasons why behind this, because it's all unrelated to today's episode. But when you do a polygraph examination on somebody, you can only ask one, possibly two, maybe three, depending on the polygrapher that you're working with in their professional opinion, possibly three questions. And they're they can only be yes and no questions, they're very specific, they're very directed, and anything outside of that compromises the entire test because of baselines and how they measure things and whatever else. So even when a polygraph is possible, first of all, it's not accurate, and second of all, you can't ask questions that really go into anything deep other than again just simple yes or no's. Now, why are we telling you this? The reason why is because a polygraph, for all the reasons that I've just listed, simply cannot be um the source of safety that some partners oftentimes anticipate or hope that it will be. A lot of partners look to a polygraph and say, well, everything else has failed. He's such a good liar, he's such a good whatever. This will do it and it will cure it for me. Well, it won't. And and and the first reason why it won't is because of all the things that I just mentioned. But there's an important second reason, okay? And Mark and I have seen this with client after client that we've worked with. Even when a polygraph is highly accurate, the problem with, and we talked about this on the Dare to Connect our couple session today on a in a different venue. Yeah, something you we all have to recognize and honor about trauma and how it works in the brain is that it rarely functions logically. It doesn't operate from a logical perspective. So, oh, well, I'm highly questioning him based on his years of integrity abuse, because that's what this is, right? Gaslighting, lying, manipulation, all this integrity abuse. But this polygraph went well. And so now instantly I don't question that is not how trauma works. And we have seen that with spouse after spouse. I worked with spouses who, even when they get that polygraph result, they instantly think, What? He somehow he looked up on on the internet how to how to manage it, or the polygraph, the polygrapher just didn't catch it, or maybe he called her, maybe he looked, he's the one that set this up. Maybe he called and bribed the guy. And you know, I mean, we've heard it all in our time. And and those and those assumptions or situations aren't necessarily accurate or logical, but again, neither is the brain's trauma response.

SPEAKER_03 13:33

Well, and let's let's let's talk about uh that a little bit more as it ties to her question. She, like so many betrayed partners, and this is one of the most heartbreaking things that Steve and I face in the work we do, where you're working with a woman. Women naturally have really amazing, finely tuned intuition. They're very good at gut feelings, they they have this internal sense of being in tune with a lot of things. Betrayal and integrity abuse, and a partner living in a secret sexual basement for years or decades, it breaks that natural part of these partners. It it shatters that that natural gift of intuition. And now you have women that they don't know what's true, what's not. I don't, I don't know that I even know anymore. I don't even know how to discern it anymore. So then what happens? And we've been talking for about the last more than a month in our Dare to Connect program about what we call the internal family system, IFS, where when you've been wounded and traumatized, these these protectors come forward to protect you from further harm, from further uh betrayal and wounding. And what is one of the really big protectors that the betrayed partners find comes forward to try to keep them safe through all this? Information gatherer. If I can gather enough information, if I can be hyper-vigilant enough, if I can be the greatest, the greatest female detective of all time and keep track of everything he does or doesn't do, I will get to the place of safety by gathering in enough info, by knowing enough. And the really tragic, sad part of that is is we have, Steve and I have both worked with betrayed partners that really pursued that hard. And then the really heartbreaking part is they get to the end of it where they've gathered every possible piece of info known to mankind. And then they look at us and say, Why don't I still why don't I feel safe? How come that didn't work? And a polygraph falls into that category. Right. So, Steve, if that's not the way to come to truth, how and partners are saying, How do I fix my broken intuition system? Where in the world do I go from here? Will I never be able to know truth or regain that sense the rest of my life? Like what do I do? Right? We hear that a lot.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Well, and in order to kind of address that, I think we have to kind of walk it back a step and we have to look to look at the reasoning why do partners become so I don't want to say obsessed because it's not the right term, because obsession implies that it's like some yeah, vigilant, right? Why do partners become so I guess you could say focused on this?

SPEAKER_03 16:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

I think the reason why is because he's been so frankly shit shitty at sharing facts. Partners oftentimes find that they develop this kind of desperation for facts because they and they think that if I can find facts, if I go in on a fact-finding trip, that once I finally map all those out to every possible degree, then that is going to create the safety. But the problem, like we've been talking about all along, is that the internal traumatized brain will take those facts and what and can those be helpful to a degree? Yeah, they can. Sure. And obviously we we want to map those wherever we reasonably can, right? That's why we do use polygraphs where possible and things like that.

SPEAKER_03 17:07

That's why we do full, full uh therapeutic disclosures that take months for him to put together his sexual history, right? All the details we can get, sure.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

But at the end of the day, none of those things formulates what what many partners are looking for, which is some sort of guarantee that will flip the switch in her brain to be able to say, okay, I can relax now. As long as a partner is in that mode or in that mentality of facts, are going to figure this out as far as knowing the past, knowing what's occurred, we would heavily encourage partners to look at that and consider what other capabilities, if that can't create safety for me, then then what can?

SPEAKER_03 17:46

And may and and we want to be we want to make sure that that you're hearing us. We're not saying that that's not an important, very important critical part of this process. Guys in recovery need to own their stuff, they need to come forward, of course, and they need to be, they learn to need to be honest at all costs, we say. And and frankly, and when we have a guy ask us, well, what's what's the most important thing for me to to divulge to my partner in this disclosure process? You know our response? That thing in the back of your head that's telling you to that you're gonna take that to the grave and you're never gonna reveal it. That one needs to come out. They all need to come out. So we yeah, that's absolutely critical. What we're saying is it's only a piece of the safety puzzle. It cannot do all of this on its own. It can't.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Well, and because again, because of the traumatic background, I mean, here's the here's the practical reality to partners and addicts listening. And and we don't want this to sound hopeless. It's just simply a reality that you have to that you have to embrace and work with when you're talking about when you're talking about healing from trauma. When we heal through from trauma, we move through it, but we don't forget. No, and sometimes that isn't talked about enough. Sometimes there's almost a thinking that if I, you know, if I really do my healing work and I figure this out and whatever, and he does all his work, then then therefore that will bring us back to a pre-betrayal state. It doesn't.

SPEAKER_03 19:13

We even have some you know religious circles that would even state a pr a so-called principle, forgiving is forgetting. And it's not true. It's not true.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

I'll just be honest with you. That whole who whoever said, you know, forgive and forget ought to be drug out and shot, because that's just a bunch of malarkey. I do. No, we we should, and and it's not because it's not even within our capacity, you shouldn't forget. Coming to know and embrace your partner, let's talk about long-term recovery, right? If we're looking at a couple, we're talking about optimized recovery. That is not going to be a coupleship where they've both forgotten the mistakes that they've made. It's a coupleship that will have worked through those and is able to truly see one another, embrace one another, and connect with each other authentically, which means recognizing being able to love another person means embracing all of them, right? The good, the bad, the ugly, the past, the current, the future. Right? It doesn't mean being okay with all those things, but it means coming to understand them as well as reconciling those things on our end and through the work that they've done in such a way that we can move forward with that past as part of our current reality of it.

SPEAKER_03 20:21

If my partner were to were to come on here right now and you were to ask her about me, she would she would talk about all the all the great qualities she loves in me, all the ways I've grown, all the ways that I've improved, you know, what uh how much better our relationship is today. What would she also say? She would also say, I accept the fact that I will that I will be married to as long as we are together for the rest of our lives to an addict in recovery. That is part of who he is. I know what that means. I have I have agreed to continue in this relationship with that being part of his makeup, and that's how we proceed on a daily basis, along with all the other awesome stuff.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 21:04

She has she doesn't forget now.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

Again, that doesn't, and we again we hope that doesn't paint like some sort of a hopeless picture. No. What it means because of what we're talking about here is getting to the end of that recovery road means getting to the highest form of intimacy, the capacity for two people to be able to say honestly and authentically, I know your best, I know your worst. I've seen the best sides of you, and I've seen the darkest sides of you. And because of who you've become, because of the work you've put in, because of the work that I've done, because of the work we've put in together, the changes that we've made, we're able to stand side by side and love each other knowing that past because we're able because we've done the work to overcome it, not make it gone or poof it out of the existence.

SPEAKER_03 21:45

Can I say something from my side? I don't want to forget my addiction past.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Oh good lord, if I ever forgot my addiction past, what am I doomed to do? Those who those who forget the past are doomed to what? Repeat it. Repeat it in the same way. That is true, a hundred percent. Yeah. 100%. And a partner should not move, should not forget. Right? If if 20 years down the road, following recovery, if a wife walks into the room and he closes a bunch of browsers on the computer really fast as she's walking in, she should be leery about that. And that doesn't mean she doesn't love him, nor does it mean that she doesn't trust him. It means that they have a history and she's cognizant of it. That's right. And that's okay. And it's an opportunity to connect. That very thing, I've talked about it on DDC before. That very thing happened to my wife and I about a year ago. And I was actually trying to hide a surprise that I was putting together for her. But it was, but this exact thing happened, right? And it ended up being a discussion where we could connect. But I could tell the minute she walked into the room, she was like, What the hell's going on in here?

SPEAKER_03 22:47

Yeah, what is it?

SPEAKER_01 22:48

Right? And I've been sober a long, long time, but that's okay. I wouldn't expect her to be, I would never go in there in a healthy recovery state and be like, Why would you, why would you question me of this? I've been sober for two months. She has every right to question that. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 23:02

And I as I want to bring up something. I had an early mentor that really it took me years and I'm still I'm still trying to understand what he shared. But here's what he said to me. Mark, the past means what it means. And he would purposely just sit there and just let that sit. The past means what it means, Mark. And you're looking at him and he says, until it means something different. So if you were to talk with talk with my my part, my wife today about my addiction past and what it means to her today, she would tell you that it means something very different than it did when I was in deep addiction. Now what now what am I trying to communicate here? It doesn't change what I did and that it was incredibly betraying and shattering and crushing and all the things that it was. But her sitting here today, where she is today, when she looks at my addiction past, the lens through which she sees that past and how she fits in it is much different today than it was years ago. What does her lens look like today? What is the meaning of my addiction past? Well, today she has a very carefully crafted set of boundaries that she's very good at communicating and holding. She has an outside support system that doesn't rely on whether I stay sober or whether I don't. Her confidence has been rebuilt. She has a wonderful, retuned intuition inside herself. She's a different person as I am a different person. So, yes, does my addiction past still exist with all the crap and garbage of it? It does. But I will tell you, for her and for me, the meaning of that past is much different today because we're different people. We have skill sets, we have systems in place, we have healthy, right? And she knows that if I and I could, I could relapse, I could betray her, I could go have an affair, but she knows exactly what she will do if that were to happen.

unknown 25:13

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 25:14

Because that wasn't the case decades ago.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Well, and that's what, and and I like what Mark's bringing that up because what can a partner do in a situation like this, right? Polygraph isn't going to do it. It's first of all, it's not possible for them. And we've already talked about how that wouldn't be the end-all be-all that for most partners they look to it to be anyway. So, what do we need to do? Well, the first and foremost thing that a partner needs to do is there needs to be a dialogue with the self about how can I reduce my dependency on facts to create safety for me because that's what partners are looking for, inevitably, right? I'm looking for safety. And the brain thinks that if I just map every single thing that that that's going to give that to me. So the question then becomes, well, what other ways can safety be provided? And that takes lots of forms, right? My own boundaries, doing my own self-worth work, right? Um identifying any areas of codependency in the relationship that are still existing. What am I, in what ways, in other words, am I needing him, quote unquote, to be quote unquote okay? Right? How do I, how do I formulate and figure out who I am, my identity, my worth outside of this marriage? Whenever this discussion comes up for me, I always I always look to my one of my favorite movies, right? The one of the best phrases I've ever heard came from the movie Cool Runnings from John Cannon.

SPEAKER_03 26:39

Cool runnings. I love that movie.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

If you're not enough without it, you'll never be enough with it. And that is 100% true when it comes to a relationship. When and it's also a great challenger to any tendencies of codependency or unhealthy dependency that might run in a relationship. If I am not, and it applies both to addicts and to partners and to people in general. If I am not enough, identity-wise, confidence-wise, worth-wise, if I'm not enough without my person, I'm never gonna be adequate or enough with that person. I have to figure out where my value and worth stems from and where my stability comes from. It means brand it also, but it doesn't mean more than that, right? It means branching out and developing other emotional grounding points or sources outside of the relationship. It's always tragic when Mark and I will work with partners. And despite us talking about it in D2C, on the on the podcast, in our therapy, how partners can sometimes be just like addicts, can be very resistant to developing an outside support system. And every partner learns sooner or later, through through whatever way it comes about, that he cannot be your everything in this process. He can't. It would never be healthy to look to a victim in a situation and say, go to your abuser to get your needs met. Go to your perpetrator. Would that ever be something we would say? Of course not. Now, does that mean he doesn't love you or care about you? No, it doesn't mean that. But it does mean that you have a genuine incapacity to intake from him things that he may even genuinely want to provide, not even because he's doing it wrong, although that could be the case, but also because your trauma doesn't allow you to take those things from him. Affirmation, value, worth, connection, those might be things that are compromised temporarily for you right now. And you have to develop other sources for that. It's not good or bad, it just is.

SPEAKER_03 28:39

Now, I I know as I've worked with partners, uh, there's a really, there's a very logical, understandable, even expected question that now comes forward from a lot of partners right now in this type of discussion. Well, if I got to go get all my needs met somewhere else, if I got to develop out a whole system of other people, then why in the heck am I in this relationship at all? It's a very logical question, right? And I think I think it's important to take a look at that. First of all, it's a good question. Why am I in this relationship? But but what is a what what does a healthy relationship really look like? And I think this is where we get messed up. And and the culture has been horrible. Rom-coms and rock songs and all of all the ways we're told, right, how much we need to rely on this other this other uh person in the relationship. Hell the healthiest relationships are where two independent people, two independently, they have independent worth, they have independent confidence, they have they have they have an independent source of connection. They had right lot lots of lots of independence is there. And those two individuals then come together to be what? Interdependent. But you can't have interdependence and true collaboration and cooperation unless you first have your own healthy independence. That's not well understood in our culture. In fact, it's it's often it's often criticized or mocked. And it's really important.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

It's romantic to think that the other person could be your end-all be all that they can't. That sells that sells movie tickets and it destroys relationships. Yeah, that's what that does. Um, I have to figure out myself and I have to a healthy marriage is where two is one where two people are. We call it interdependent on one another, right? We look to and we rely on the other person to enhance and support our life, but not to be the end-all be-all or the or the center. They can't be.

SPEAKER_03 30:50

Because because what do you do? You you come to you say, here's who I am, independent of you. Here's what I believe in, here's what's important to me, here are my goals and my dreams and my vision in life. Here's my value, here's my value system, and the other person shares all that, all their side of that. And you look at each other and say, Could we collaborate? Could we cooperate? Could we could we pursue these paths in parallel of one another? You're on your train, I'm on my train, the tracks are going in the same direction, right? That's called compatibility.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

Well, and a true relationship, if you want to put it in math terminology, is not again what Roncoms have taught us, which is one half plus one half equals one. I'm kind of broken until I find my person and now I'm whole because I found my person. Yeah. How relationships are supposed to work is one plus one equals five. It's that synergy concept, but we're talking about the real version of it, not just the one that got hyped up in the 90s in every human race. Yeah, my whole partner in the country.

SPEAKER_03 31:52

My whole self collaborating with your whole self in compatibility equals infinite possibilities.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

You're an amazing person with amazing qualities and attributes, and you can stand on your own, your own. I am the same, but together we could come together and make something absolutely incredible.

SPEAKER_03 32:08

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

I love that. And so there's a lot to that, right? So internally, what does that mean? Like we've been talking about. It means becoming progressively interdependent with him and meeting your needs rather than codependent on him for creating safety. Okay. Externally, what does that mean? What now? Because you should be looking externally to some of those things, right? Again, like Mark said, this is not about not anything that he does has nothing to do with your safety. It has a lot to do with your safety, especially when it comes to the relationship. But externally, what are you looking for? Observe behaviors, attitude shifts, actions, approaches to his recovery, your marriage. How proactive is he versus not? How dependent on you for affirmation or other things is he versus not? How willing is he to pick willing, how willing is he to be accountable and to pick up the sword and to and to fight the hard battles and to do the hard things versus needing to be coaxed by you or pushed by you or whatever the case is by you? When you give him criticism or feedback, how emotionally grounded is he in that versus reactive, right? These are all no, there is no silver bullet to this, but these are all elements of where we have to shift away from any of those unhealthy dependencies into interdependability.

SPEAKER_03 33:20

Yeah. And what do you what are you looking for? You're look you're looking for evidence. You're looking for right ongoing progressive evidence, not perfection, but you're looking at the at the outward signs. You're you're this is where you start to pay attention to what your gut's telling you again. This is where you start to begin to to uh regain trust in your intuition as a betrayed partner. Right? We what do we talk about? We we say, yes, you begin to trust, but you verify. Trust, but verify. And it's and you don't you're you're not a Nazi about it. You're right. You don't you you you keep in check your your tendency to be hyper-vigilant and his policewoman or his detective, but but you do look for absolute evidence. You check in about it with each other on a regular, transparent basis. Hey, I've just noticed over the last week or so, you seem to be a lot more shut down and stoic, which is like an old behavior uh for you. And kind of my alarms have been going off a little bit. How are you doing? Uh have you been engaging in your daily self-care? Have you have you been touching base with your support system? Uh when's the last time you talked to your accountability partner? I just sort of sensing this, and here's what I'm feeling is are my vibes right? Check in with me. Right? Transparency around these things with with one another. This is what this is how you start to restore intuition.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

So all these things are are absolutely critical, guys. Um partners, for all of you listening, your job isn't to police them. Okay, it's to become the best person and partner that you can be. Okay, you so what do you do while you're working on these other elements? You've work, you you focus on self-optimization, right? I is what we call it. I I work on becoming the best version of me that I possibly can be. And I invite him to join me in the process. The more I come to know myself, the more interdependent I become, the more I grow my self-worth and my own emotional grounding and my own sense of purpose and my own identity, the more I'm gonna be able to accurately see this relationship and choose it or not.

SPEAKER_03 35:27

That's the reality. That's true. I love that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

So anyway, there's lots more we could say to this. Uh, we we love and appreciate all of you. Thank you for being here uh as always with the podcast. There are not easy answers to these things, right? This is just kind of scratching the surface. So, what, Mark and Steve? You just gave me a little bit of an answer. Well, if only there was a place where you could come spend time with Mark and Steve in person and actually like get information from them and ask questions and get real-time answers. Well, good news, everyone. There is. Get your butts over to Dare to Connect. If you like these podcast episodes, if you like what you hear here, if if the if the little pieces of guidance and the nuggets that you get here are helpful on the week to week, think how much it could be helpful if when you're able to meet, interact with, and engage with not just us, but the hundreds of couples that are in the Dare to Connect program live on an interactive basis multiple times. Take your recovery to the next level. Everybody here is here because they value themselves and/or their relationship. Are you putting the same amount of resources and energy into this as you are to the other things that you have going on? Or uh is how you're delegating your resources and your time and your energy and other things. Is that requisite with what you actually feel? Right? Where where does recovery maybe need to shift for you? May we humbly suggest that you give Dare to Connect a try, grab a two-week free trial of it, and see how it can benefit you at DareToconnectnow.com. Uh, you can also send us podcast submissions to be addressed via snail mail. I think we're about eight weeks out, seven weeks out now, right now, on uh submissions as of this recording. But you can send those into us at the same website, daretoconnectnow.com. And after making the the less optimal decision of clicking on the free trial, you can click on the PVC podcast logo and send those into the contact form that pops up when you do that there.

SPEAKER_03 37:19

So all right. Well, hey, as always, thanks for being here with us. Appreciate uh and uh we're we're we're rooting, we're pulling, we're we're hoping for all of you. And uh we're as always, we're in this together. So we'll we'll catch you uh on our next PBSC episode or over in D2C.

SPEAKER_01 37:38

Sounds great, everybody. Have a good one.

SPEAKER_00 37:41

Everything expressed on the PBSC podcast are the opinions of the hosts and the participants and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of an individual qualified mental health professional. If you're experiencing thoughts of suicide, self harm, or a desire to harm others, please dial 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.