If He Doesn't Think Porn Is Bad, Can He Still Truly Recover??

In Episode 346, a betrayed partner wonders whether her husband can genuinely recover from pornography addiction when he admits that lying, hiding, gaslighting, and hurting her are wrong but still insists that pornography itself is not “bad.” While we believe there are very substantial reasons to view pornography as harmful, we also believe that turning recovery into a debate about morality can actually become a distraction. An addict can endlessly argue research, compare himself to others, minimize consequences, or find someone willing to validate his position. The more important distinction is between compliance and conversion. Compliance says, “I will stop because my wife, therapist, church, or circumstances require me to.” Conversion says, “I am beginning to understand that this behavior is fundamentally incompatible with the person I want to become.” External motivation may get someone through the recovery door, but lasting change requires the motivation to eventually become internal.

The deeper examination involves asking what pornography has actually trained within the individual. Repeated pornography use can condition the mind toward objectification, scanning, comparing, novelty, entitlement, immediate gratification, fantasy, and consumption. Healthy relational sexuality, by contrast, requires presence, patience, mutuality, vulnerability, emotional connection, and the ability to tolerate another person's needs and boundaries. We discovered in our own recovery that pornography was often a counterfeit substitute for the real connection we desperately wanted but did not know how to create. And these patterns do not necessarily remain isolated to sexuality. A consumer mindset can spill into marriage, family, friendships, business, and everyday relationships, where people subtly become means to our own emotional or relational ends. The critical question therefore becomes: Does this behavior increase my capacity for authentic connection, or does it train me further into escape and disconnection?

Finally, an addict who strongly insists that pornography is not wrong may need to ask whether that is truly his deepest conviction—or whether the argument is protecting something he still does not want to surrender. Pornography may have functioned for years as comfort, stimulation, emotional anesthesia, escape, control, or self-soothing, and giving it up can feel frightening. Underneath the intellectual debate may be a much more vulnerable truth: I still want this, or I don't know how to cope without it. That is where meaningful recovery can begin. The betrayed partner cannot argue or research her husband into transformation; she can establish boundaries, protect her own healing, and watch whether his recovery increasingly becomes authentic and internally motivated. Ultimately, true recovery occurs when the addict moves beyond “I won't use porn because it hurts my partner” toward “I don't want to live this way because it moves me away from honesty, connection, integrity, self-mastery, and the man I genuinely want to become.”

For a full transcript of this podcast in article format, go to:   If He Doesn't Think Porn Is Bad, Can He Still Truly Recover?

Learn more about Mark and Steve's revolutionary online porn/sexual addiction recovery and betrayal trauma healing program at—daretoconnectnow.com

Find out more about Steve Moore at:  Ascension Counseling

Learn more about Mark Kastleman at:  Reclaim Counseling Services

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Hey everybody, PBSC Podcast hosts Mark and Steve here with a special message about our revolutionary online recovery program for addict spouses and couples called Dare to Connect. Multiple times every week, we get messages from subscribers in the program. They're people just like you. They're trying to heal from the devastation of sex and porn addiction and betrayal trauma. And here's a few of our most recent submissions. Here's one from an addict in recovery. It says D2C has principles that everyone should utilize regardless of their circumstances. It doesn't matter your coping mechanisms, it matters that you want to work towards genuine connection with your partner. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 1:41

Another testimony from an addict continues on. Wow. The way Mark and Steve apply what they've learned is always so redemptive. D2C has opened doors for my relationship that I thought would be shut forever. Mark and Steve are an incredible resource of information on the subject of sex addiction and betrayal trauma. We could not do this journey without their help.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Here's one from a partner who's been with us for nearly a year. I want you both to know that it is because of you guys and D2C that I'm able to be in the place that I am today. I will always be grateful to you both for your feedback and prompt replies to my questions. I can't even come close to putting it into words how valuable my time spent with y'all this past year has been to my life. Thank you for everything you taught me about betrayal trauma and boundaries and thinking errors and loving myself and making myself a priority and standing up for myself.

SPEAKER_03 2:45

Love that. Love that submission. And then as we close out here today, guys, one more account from another addict in recovery. I wish I had a platform like this 14 years ago where I could have learned and done the hard work of recovery before I had done all this damage to myself and to my spouse. And to be candid with all of you, that's exactly why we created Dare to Connect. You know, Mark and I found ourselves in that place. You know, messages like these and the others like them, they're what Dare to Connect really is all about, guys, and why Mark and I do what we do. Whether you're an addict or a partner of an addict, and no matter where you find yourself in the recovery process, Dare to Connect can take you to the next level. Don't wait another day to catapult your recovery forward. Today is your day for change. Visit us at DareToconnectNow.com to pick up your free two-week trial of Dare to Connect today.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

And I'm Mark Castleman. We know the pain and heartbreak of porn and sex addiction.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

And we know the triumph of breaking completely free. Every day we help our clients find hope and healing. Join us in the fight to take back your life, your marriage, and be stronger than ever. This is the PBSE Squared Podcast.

SPEAKER_03 4:37

This is Steve Moore, here along with Mark Castleman, and we are here to talk about a submission from a partner. As you can see in the title, if he doesn't think porn is bad, I'm gonna put quotes around that. Can he's can he still truly recover? The age old question Is morality enough? Well, let's talk about it because there's a lot there's a lot to say here. Um we'll read the submission. It's actually quite short, which is uh a little different, but but not in a bad way. She gets right to the point. She says, This partner goes on to say, My husband is an addict, a pornography addict. After supposedly a year clean, in hindsight, absolutely what he was white knuckling and then relapsed, and then a fall a period of relapsing for six months. Um this is she says, Everything I know is things I found. He's he wasn't up front during that time. This time he is attempting recovery again, and it for us it feels a little bit different, but I'm hesitant to let myself get too optimistic yet, which is smart. He's back in CSAT therapy, so he's meeting with a certified sex addiction therapist, which is good. He's attending meetings once or twice a week. We assume to mean those are like 12-step meetings. We have tried to eliminate triggering content on his phone, we seem to be com and we seem to be communicating more. But and here's the but there's always a but, right? He doesn't think porn is bad. He recognizes the lying and hiding and gaslighting is bad. Hurting me is bad. He wants to stop because it hurts me, not because he thinks porn is wrong. Is it even to kick is it even possible to kick such a habit when he sees nothing wrong with porn itself? Okay, so we've got an extent. So we have a situation here that in some ways is typical, but in some ways unique. This guy has a long history of acting out with pornography. Um, according to her, this is based on what she knows, at least over the course of years, right? A lot of heavy gaslighting, a lot of heavy uh relapsing. Again, all of what she found out according to her her account. It's not stuff that he would ever come and be accountable to her with. It's always things that she's discovered. Um, they've gone multiple times through recovery, uh, at least one time only to come to find out that there was more white knuckling than actual change. Um, and and it sounds like in some ways they're getting to some at least some of the issues at play, which is good. Um, and there is some progress, at least on his end, in terms of transparency of just he's owning it apparently with her, right? At least to a degree. Look, I just don't think this is bad. So we have a dynamic here where we're at least we're getting somewhere. The question, of course, becomes is this the question that should even be asked? And I got lots of thoughts about this. I know Mark does as well. So we're gonna jump right into this, right? Because again, I that you could almost ask that's the question behind the question. Is morality sufficient impetus to change?

SPEAKER_00 7:38

So let's well, and I think you know, let's let's say something right up front so we can say it and then we can move forward to these deeper issues. There are lots and lots of resources out there with studies that have gone on for decades and decades. In fact, I I I engaged in some of those studies with colleagues clear back in the late 90s about the harms of pornography. I interviewed women from from uh the sex trade industry themselves. And we could talk about all of the abuses and all of the all of the manipulations and all of the terrible underworld that takes place in the entire pornography industry worldwide. And this is not what this podcast is about, but please make no mistake, Steve and I have very strong feelings about pornography itself and how it treats women, how the industry operates, and we could we could do 50 hours on the harms of pornography backed up by decades of absolute clinical and real life research. So enough said. I mean, to me, that's almost it doesn't even bear answering. It's like, really, is pornography harmful? You're gonna you're gonna claim that, claim it's not, or ask that after all that all the water under the bridge with research and results and just just all of it. It's it's it's a Mount Everest of evidence about this whole the the harm of this whole thing. So, right, enough said about that. Oh, you're muted, Steve.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

Don't you love that, guys? Everybody love technology. Awkward silence on the recording. Yes, I appreciate Mark mentioning it. I coughed and then I forgot to unmute. Um definitely agree with what Mark is saying, and and just my quick review, because it does bear some review. I mean, from an addict's I mean, I'll just give you the addicts in recovery perspective, right? Because Mark did a good job outlining kind of from an objective place. You know, I spent, and as did Mark, decades uh finding every way possible to act out in all sorts of unique ways, pornography and otherwise. And then when our spouses, you know, understandably were resistant or hesitant or found it problematic, we then spent even more time trying to find ways to make it okay when it wasn't. And and I don't mean okay from uh is it making Jesus cry or not? Not that that doesn't matter, but it but that's more of the moralistic discussion, right? As opposed to we were making it okay from a place of look, it's not as bad as you think, or it's not as problem, right? Whatever. Well, so having gone through that and being in the unique position as a therapist, I can tell you I I went through all those kinds of things with my partner. I, you know, made those kinds of affirmations, and oftentimes I would find myself, um, not in totality because I don't think I ever tried to truly make the case that this is good. I don't think I ever went that far, but I would lean heavily on the moral discussion of it, right? In terms of debate with my partner. It's not as bad as you think it is. You don't know what my clients are doing. This is so much not as bad. Um, it's way less significant. It could be so much worse, right? This the moral relativism.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

Everybody's doing it. It's really just sort of a neutral issue.

SPEAKER_03 10:56

It's it's just not that big of a you know, but there was just there was so much relativism. Moral relativism is the term that was was used to talk about that. And I'll tell you, as an addict, I that was just that suited me just fine looking back. You know why? Because I didn't have to look at the feelings behind it. I got to just stay what in the quote unquote facts. No, the facts weren't even really factual, but I was trying to keep I was keeping the the discussion factually based or right, as it was like a debate, right? Like let's look at the pros and the cons, or let's look at and the reality is is that is is that the question that should be asked? Because I'll tell you, as an addict in long-term recovery, I and I'm not just talking about recovery from sexual addiction, I'm talking about true change on any level. What we're talking about here is the difference between um compliance versus conversion that we talk about here oftentimes and in our Dare to Connect program for addicts, spouses, and couples. Um, do I want to, and this is applicable for spouses too, and they need to ask themselves that because sometimes spouses, understandably so, they will kind of fall into that same trap. Look, I gotta I'm gonna prove to you why you need to change, right? I'm gonna get so many facts together and so many observations and so many whatever, you'll have no choice but to because you have to now, right? But the reality is that you can put you can you can build bigger and bigger metaphorical gun barrels to the factual argument and attach it to the weapon and hold it to a guy's head. But no matter how big the caliber, all that's going to do metaphorically is induce some level of compliance. But what's needed for real change in a marriage, whether it's around this issue or frankly any issue, maritally or otherwise, individually, is there on some level has to be some sort of a conversion. There has to be a recognition of, you know what, screw the facts. Whether whatever they are, whatever I think they are, they don't, because we live in a world, right, where we can debend, we can debate facts endlessly. I mean, can we just have a really candid discussion? It would not take me very hard as a professional, nor did it take Mark, to find some wing nut on the internet who's willing to say that pornography is awesome and great and helpful for whatever. You look up enough research studies on any academic website, you will find some study to back up anything. Yep, it is true. And so you can you can go that route all day long, but at the end of the day, the question should be less about is this moralistically wrong or right? Although we, as Mark said, I think the case for it being moralistically problematic, not just for people, but for society as a whole, is overwhelming. But if we set that aside, one has to ask, who am I authentically today? Who am I authentically really deep down trying to become? And is what I'm engaging with here compatible with, and or does it move me closer to that or not?

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Well, it's really interesting in her submission, and I know that maybe some guys listening aren't gonna like what I'm about to say, but he she says here that he recognized he doesn't think porn is bad, but he recognizes that the lying and the hiding and the gaslighting is bad, that hurting her is bad, and he wants to stop because it hurts her, not because he thinks porn is wrong. The thing he's not recognizing, and I remember my deep addiction days, this would have gone over my head also. The lying and the hiding and the gaslighting and the hurting her, those are all part of part of pornography. The same kind of mindset that produces those behaviors that he wants to stop because it hurts her, those same kinds of mindsets are what produce or what move us towards engaging with pornography in the first place. Right? So it's not we could have an endless argument about how bad porn is or not bad, but the real the real question for him uh especially is what kind of man, what kind of sexuality, what kind of relationship is the pornography, the regular engagement with pornography, what is that all moving him toward? Training him to become? Right? This has to be a place of really deep self-examination instead of arguing about labels. Right? And it's and I think it seems like he's missing that. And so let's talk for a few minutes about the impact of pornography upon the individual who regularly engages with it. And I have done uh Steve and I both have done an enormous amount of research about this. We've worked with thousands and thousands of guys over more than two decades on this issue. You won't find very uh very many people that know more about the impact of pornography on on the individual engaging with it than us. So one big huge area, and we both saw this in our own decades of pornography use, and how difficult it was to confront this within ourselves and then to and then to navigate through it. But pornography trains men to objectify women. I mean, we have to face that.

unknown 16:26

Right?

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Pornography presents women primarily, not just women, it also uh of course objectifies men as well. That's become more pervasive. But pornography presents women, especially, through their appearance, their sexual availability, yeah, everything that they can provide sexually, what their body parts look like or don't look like, the shape, the size, it's all about appearance and performance. So you take women as sovereign, independent, valuable, amazing human beings, and you put them into a little tiny box. And you have to accept the fact, if that's if you're going to engage with pornography, that that's what you're doing. Right? I'm limiting these women or these people I'm looking at to this little teeny tiny category of human existence. And am I okay with that? I had a really powerful experience when I was kind of in mid-range recovery, and I was getting more in tune with my true genuine inner self, getting more in tune with what I you know I call my higher power. I was parked outside of a of a fitness club, getting ready to go in. And a woman who was who was who was very overweight came out through the doors and started walking towards me in the parking lot. And my brain immediately went to judgment of her. Oh my gosh, can you believe how how big she is? And can't she control her eating? I just had all this judgment that was flooding out of my brain, all based on what? Purely and completely and only her physical appearance and body parts. I knew nothing else of her. Zero zip nada. And when I when my brain started doing that, which was old addict mindset, here's what the thought that came into my head. I I remember it sitting here as if it was this a minute ago. Mark, you are a bigot. And it was really forceful words. You are a bigot. And I really jumped back, right? Because I try to pride myself in accepting people and seeing all the good in people and and you know, seeing seeing all of what people are. But in that moment, I was an absolute, complete, total bigot, judging this woman by her body parts and her physical feature and and dismissing every other aspect of her. That's what pornography trains men to do. Hey everybody, PBSC podcast hosts Mark and Steve here with a special message about our revolutionary online recovery program for addict spouses and couples called Dare to Connect. Multiple times every week, we get messages from subscribers in the program. They're people just like you. They're trying to heal from the devastation of sex and porn addiction and betrayal trauma. And here's a few of our most recent submissions. Here's one from an addict in recovery. It says D2C has principles that everyone should utilize regardless of their circumstances. It doesn't matter your coping mechanisms, it matters that you want to work towards genuine connection with your partner. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 19:47

Another testimony from an addict continues on. Wow. The way Mark and Steve apply what they've learned is always so redemptive. D2C has opened doors for my relationship that I thought would be shut forever. Mark and Steve are an incredible resource of information on the subject of sex addiction and betrayal trauma. We could not do this journey without their help.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Here's one from a partner who's been with us for nearly a year. I want you both to know that it is because of you guys and D2C that I'm able to be in the place that I am today. I will always be grateful to you both for your feedback and prompt replies to my questions. I can't even come close to putting it into words how valuable my time spent with y'all this past year has been to my life. Thank you for everything you taught me about betrayal trauma and boundaries and thinking errors and loving myself and making myself a priority and standing up for myself.

SPEAKER_03 20:52

Love that submission. And then as we close out here today, guys, one more account from another addict in recovery. I wish I had a platform like this 14 years ago where I could have learned and done the hard work of recovery before I had done all this damage to myself and to my spouse. And to be candid with all of you, that's exactly why we created Dare to Connect. You know, Mark and I found ourselves in that place. You know, messages like these and the others like them, they're what Dare to Connect really is all about, guys, and why Mark and I do what we do. Whether you're an addict or a partner of an addict, and no matter where you find yourself in the recovery process, Dare to Connect can take you to the next level. Don't wait another day to catapult your recovery forward. Today is your day for change. Visit us at DareToconnectNow.com to pick up your free two-week trial of Dare to Connect today. Well, and the and the impact, I mean, as Mark said, is profound and difficult to quantify. And I think that the reality is, is the more that a guy is willing to be mindful with himself, right? And examine again pride and ego and all the other stuff aside, I mean, ask yourself. For those who maybe have engaged with it recently, we're sure that there are some that listen to the podcast. If you go engage with pornography for 10 minutes, an hour, whatever it is, can you can you say that you honestly come out of that pornography masturbation binge, whatever session it is, and and and answer the question honestly that I am closer to who I'm wanting or trying to become. Right? Is my and not just me, right? But is my marriage? Is my are my relationships, is my capacity connect to connect better, more capable, more whatever, right? I I feel, and we talk about this in Dare to Connect oftentimes, that there is an inverse relationship when it comes to connection, reality versus escape. The more I connect with reality by definition, the less I connect with with. But likewise, the more I or or unreality or fantasy or whatever you want to call it, right? But likewise, the more I I I connect with fantasy or things that aren't real or authentic, the more I am likewise disconnected with the things in my life that are of connecting nature.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:22

Right. It's not to say that it's not to say that we don't need a break or that fantasy fantasizing on some level can be healthy or especially in the right venue or dreaming about things or right, even taking a break. I mean, those are all healthy things. But if I'm consistently recurring, recurringly connecting to a I mean, we I have the same discussion being canned with you with a lot of the video game addicts that I've worked with over the years.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Oh, we had we had a freeze there.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

I I've had a lot of issues with the same uh process with video game addicts that I've worked with over the years, right? The more is are video games themselves problematic? I would argue no. I pick up a game controller once in a while myself, about once a week. But if I am spending all of my time escaping into a world that doesn't actually exist, right? And it comes at the cost of things that do exist or that are real, authentic connection, authentic reality, authentic whatever, is that taking me closer and more to who I want to be and I'm trying to become? Am I evolving into a better person, a better man, a better human, a better partner, a better whatever?

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Or is it taking me further away?

SPEAKER_03 24:32

Right? Setting aside the whole moral argument and just looking at it from that perspective, I think that kind of presents some things.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Well, and I I mean, I would obviously say, I know Steve would too that uh pornography by itself is problematic, absolutely for sure. Oh, for sure. But but here's here's what here's what I found in my heavy addiction years. I had in my mind and in my heart the kind of man that I wanted to be, that I yearned to be, that I I thought maybe possibly I could become, maybe. But every time I engaged with pornography, what did I find that it reinforced within me? Scanning, comparing, fantasizing, categorizing. It was just reducing women and people around me to just body parts, pieces and parts, sexualized body parts. And so the the question we have to ask ourselves is am I training myself through these behaviors to see women and quite frankly, myself as whole people, whole people comprised of many wonderful, amazing, and beautiful components, or just simply as pieces and parts that are sources of sexual stimulation? That's a critical question, right? Because what pornography does and I I yearned for connection. I've I've come to discover now that I've been in recovery for many years that what I was always seeking was real connection, real deep human connection. It scared me. I hadn't experienced much of it uh at all in my life, I didn't know how to do it, and so I I went to sexual outlets as kind of the counterfeit of it. But pornography trains us to do what? It it trains us to treat sexuality as something that we consume. Right? It's a consumer mindset. It's sexuality trains toward consumption, not connection. That's very important. Pornography trains you and your sexuality towards consumption, not connection. Right? So we start to center on things like instant access, uh, my stimulation, novelty and newness, and constantly changing it up and and and and consuming another person's body for my own gratification almost always without their consent. I mean, think about think about that idea. Consuming another person's body for my personal gratification, they did not consent to such a thing.

SPEAKER_03 27:21

Well, and again, well uh coming back to, you know, let's there is the moralistic side of it, but let's look at the let's look at the element, other element. If I am, if I am, my brain is being progressively trained again to consume versus connect, how does that impact my world? Right? Let's take the morality off the table. I mean, I can tell you firsthand how it impacted me, my capacity to connect with other people in authentic ways, and I'm not just talking about my mom, my wife. I'm talking about my my capacity, my ability to actually spend time with and develop valuable relationships, right? Was impacted. My ability to uh form healthy relationships in business and with other people, colleagues was impacted, right? I mean, it the the res the impacts of this are are I mean, they are significant on infant on intimate relationships, but it extends so far beyond that. The daily connections that we formulate, you know, on a regular basis, they become impacted by by this over time progressively.

SPEAKER_00 28:28

Well, we'd like to say that if we're if we're using pornography and getting into that consumer mindset of using people, that it's solely, it's solely restricted to just the pornography use and my sexuality. That's not true. I found that that objectification of people, people being a means to my ends, I found that that spilled over into all the aspects of my life business, friendships, family, marriage. Right? You can't just limit it to I only act as I'm consuming people and using them for their pieces and parts when I'm involved with porn. It doesn't, it is not part of any other parts of my life. Not true. Not true. I found it creeping in everywhere where I was objectifying people. Yeah. And the trouble is, you know, real deep human connection, what does it require? That it's that's at the opposite of porn use. It requires being fully present. It requires a mutual collaboration and cooperation with another human being. And it requires vulnerability, patience, right? Deep emotional connection. All the things that we we don't use a single one of those when we engage with pornography, not one of them. So where does that take us? What does that train us toward and into? Right? Am I strengthening my ability to connect with other human beings and with myself at a deep level, or just my ability to to fantasize and escape? Which is it? You don't get to have both.

SPEAKER_03 30:01

It's a really good question. Really, really is. Um, I and you know, and we can and we could just go on. I mean, for I know we're getting getting low on time here, but just to touch on some other points, uh, guys, that we wanted to bring up for you if you're in a place where you're kind of considering these things, right? If we look at this from strictly just from the place of um, you know, how do I say this? I hope this doesn't come off as too sexist, but but we do the majority of the addicts that we work with are work with are men. Okay. So what kind of man do I want to be? One of the topics we're gonna be connecting uh working on soon and dare to connect in some form or fashion is gonna be healthy masculinity. What does it mean to be healthy masculine? What does that entail? What are attributes and qualities of a quote unquote really masculine man? We all have ideas about how they how the world defines that, right? It's like stone cold Steve Austin with a shaved head and six-pack and goatee who just you know has no emotion, doesn't feel anything. But what does it really mean to be truly uh connected to one's healthy masculine self? Well, I dare I would dare say that uh an ability and a capacity for practicing uh delayed gratification, for example, is a component to being a healthy masculine man. Yeah. Um, a capacity to be able to endure difficult things without immediately escaping is a capacity for a healthy masculine man.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Yeah, it's uh I mean, I mean, uh, you know, when you say uh delayed self, you know, delayed gratification, the opposite what I've found, at least for me and and all the men I've ever worked with, pornography reinforced a total sense of entitlement. Of course. I just get everything right now. I'm entitled to the to the bodies of these people, the images of these individuals. I don't have to engage in any kind of self-mastery. If I want something, I'm able to get it and to get it right now. I just hit the button.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

Well, and that's the thing that I would tie it to as well, Mark, because you're right. There is that self self-selfishness element. But what about the element again of tying it into what does it mean to be quote unquote a man? If I can't lean into hard things and experience difficult, you know, if I can't experience pain and experience and sit through difficult experiences, right? If I'm all if my capacity to regulate is always conditioned on me getting what I want when I want, I mean, guys, think about that objectively for a minute. In all of your time, have you ever once heard any woman hold up the value of he can't endure painful things and wants to feel good all the time as a healthy or desirable quality or attribute? Yeah, well, of course not. Because what what are what are healthy men from a from a and you you guys can Google this if you want? Generally, the a healthy masculine man is somebody who can be a protector, and that doesn't mean just physically, that means emotionally. Well, what is how how do I be an emotional protector? Well, I can tell you right now, if I need an emotional binky every time I'm having a hard time, that is not developing out of capacity for me to be able to do that for a part of the.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Well, I'll tell you something that hit me hard in recovery was when it was brought to my attention. Hey, Mark, you consider yourself someone that wants to champion uh people that are weaker than you, that wants to protect, that wants to watch over, to guard, right? Women, children. You want to end, you know, slavery across the world. You want to do all these amazing things to uplift human beings, don't you? And I'd say, yeah, I do. Well, but you're engaging in this other activity that is completely and utterly utterly incongruent with those values and the man that you're saying you want to become. Because you you you know that as you're looking at pornography, it's not this big, glamorous, amazing world where all these women are consenting and just doing it for the money. You know that there's this dark underworld where people are being being harmed in severe, horrible, awful ways. Yet you set all that realization aside to go and fill your fill your your your pleasure desires. You fracture as a man, you you separate yourself from that high value system. Are you good with that? Right.

SPEAKER_03 34:25

Yeah. 100%. Right? And so anyway, guys, we could just we could go on with this forever, right? About the different traits. But we hope that this has gotten we hope that this has gotten the conversation kind of started.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

Well, there's and there's one last point I have to bring it up.

SPEAKER_03 34:41

Okay, Mark.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Because I I was out would have absolutely been guilty of this. This and I don't know if this is true for this guy, this guy arguing whether porn is quote bad or not, he needs to take a close look at is that really his rock solid, genuine, deep core position? Or is he arguing the facts or the labels because there's a part of him that just doesn't want to let go of this this method of self-medication, this meth, this method of of having this convenient pleasure outlet. And he just doesn't want to give it up, so he's gonna argue the facts and the labels as a way to hide the fact that he doesn't he doesn't want to let it go. Or maybe he doesn't even know how he would cope if he didn't have it. Right? This could this could be camouflage for that.

SPEAKER_03 35:33

Yeah, I I don't disagree. I don't disagree at all. Um, guys, there are there are lots of uh areas to explore. If you find that this podcast has resonated for you at all, we hope that you'll you'll and and for partners who this is resonating with, we hope that you'll share this with your partner, significant other. And if you do like this approach and you enjoy and appreciate topics that get under the real that get under the issues to the real issues, if that makes sense. This this conversation. I mean, you can see how little we actually talked about porn in this discussion today. What have we been talking about? We've been talking about it's as we say oftentimes in Dare to Connect, uh, true healing and recovery for an individual in this process, for a coupleship in this process, is so much less about saying no to the wrong thing and saying yes to the right. And we don't mean wrong or right in terms of a moralistic perspective. We're talking about right or wrong in terms of what are your real needs, wants, etc.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

Yeah, yeah. Is this is is any activity moving you closer to the person you want to become and grow into or farther away?

SPEAKER_03 36:41

Yeah. And there's lots, there's lots to be done in this in this area wherever you're at in recovery. May we humbly suggest that you give Dare to Connect a try. Um, come out, come learn with and from two addicts who've, as we've said more than once, have done it all the wrong ways. I mean, aren't you guys sick of reinventing the wheel? I mean, seriously, that's how Mark and I used to feel. We've had so many conversations here in IOFIR about this, you know. We've known each other well over 10 years. I mean, it is amazing how many addicts operate in isolation, how many partners do the same, and they go through this journey of stumbling around trying to figure this crap out for them, you know, on their own, because we don't want people to know. We don't want whatever. Dare to Connect offers an anonymous, safe place where you can learn together. Just and get a manual for the wheel. Quit trying to carve one out of stone yourself. There's there's just no need. You two guys have already done it. Come come join us. Come join us in Dare to Connect, get answers to your questions, get real-time uh recovery help and support in an environment that allows you to connect and reach out with addicts and partners and other couples in this process, both live and recorded. Uh, go to daretoconnectnow.com, grab a two-week free trial. We'd love to have you come join us. Um and but if you're into uh feeling pain and want to continue to wait in a delayed way uh to get questions answered, you can send those in to us through the podcast. We're being semi-feetious, of course. We do hope that you'll you'll come check us out on Dare to Connect. It's frankly the way to go. But we do continue to answer questions on the podcast. Uh, you can send those into the same website by going to DaretoConnectDow.com, uh skipping over the healing journey part that you should click on and go to the contact form where you can send those podcasts into us by clicking at the PBSC podcast logo there. And you can get those into us. I think we're about six-ish weeks behind weeks behind, yeah. Yeah, something like that. So uh feel free to. It's like back in the 80s when we used to order like CDs online, right? Allow six to eight weeks to ship for shipping. The same thing.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 38:44

Um, but we hope that you're well, be safe, be well. Thank you for as always attending, and we hope to see you in a dare to connect session soon.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

All right, take care, everybody. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

Everything expressed on the PBSE podcast are the opinions of the hosts and the participants and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of an individual qualified mental health professional. If you're experiencing thoughts of suicide, self harm, or a desire to harm others, please dial 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.