Overwhelm is Optional
The podcast for big-hearted, highly-driven professionals who want their life back. Welcome to the Overwhelm is Optional podcast where each week we find ways to gently rebel against the nonsense that overwhelm and exhaustion are just the price you pay to have the life you want. Heidi Marke is a Coach, Teacher, Podcaster & Author. Thank you to purpleplanet.com for the music.
Overwhelm is Optional
The Transformative Power of the Mind-Body Connection: with Sara Parrode, The Portable Wellness Coach
Want more energy? This week I discuss my experiences of waking The Camino without the usual stress and exhaustion with Sarah Parrode, The Portable Wellness Coach and endurance athlete. Sarah's experiences as a global nomad offer a unique lens through which we examine the profound mind-body connection and its impact on our overall wellness.
https://www.inmotion-coaching.com/
Thrive anywhere: Portable wellness for those on the move
Helping Global Nomads, Runners, and Wellness Seekers Achieve Balance, Health, and Resilience No Matter Where They Are.
Mentioned with reference to Mental Toughness: https://www.catalystcoachinginstitute.com/
The One Minute Marke - get my free one minute audio for immediate relief from overwhelm.
The podcast for big-hearted, highly driven, professionals who want their life back. Welcome to the Overwhelm is Optional podcast where each week we find ways to gently rebel against the nonsense that overwhelm and exhaustion are just the price you pay to have the life you want.
Heidi Marke is a Coach, Teacher, Podcaster & Author
Having managed to embarrassingly and painfully burn out losing her once-loved and hard-worked-for career, confidence, health and financial stability - whilst prioritising her selfcare (yes, really!) she now quietly leads The Gentle Rebellion - inviting you to gently, but firmly, rebel against the idea that to have the life you want you to have to push through overwhelm and exhaustion. You don’t.
To find out more about my work please visit:
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Please note some episodes and show notes contain affiliate links for people and products I love and have used myself. I may earn from qualifying purchases. As...
Welcome to the Gentle Rebellion where overwhelm is optional. Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to this week's episode of the Overwhelm is Optional podcast. I'm excited and delighted to welcome Sarah Perrault. Sarah Perrault is the portable wellness coach. She helps global nomads, runners and wellness seekers achieve balanced health and resilience, no matter where in the world they are. Welcome, sarah, it's so nice to have you here. Thank you.
Speaker 2:I'm happy to be here. I'm excited to be here, so thank you very much for inviting me, you're very, very welcome.
Speaker 1:So we've been talking on and off. I don't know, maybe a year, I don't know how long we've been talking actually and we met through a discussion concerning the mind body relationship and we were coming at it from different places because you're, you know, you're like super athletic and I'm super not athletic, so it's just, it's so. It's so interesting the way we have so much in common and I'm really keen to pull out your expertise about the mind-body connection and how that relates to our relationship with ourself, our relationship with our body, because I know this is really, really important to the people listening to the podcast who want to be really well, have really good energy, but they can find it difficult. It can become a bit of a battle. The whole relationship with the body, you know, being judgmental, self-care and the need to do more exercise or get more sleep the whole fitness thing just becomes an added pressure.
Speaker 1:So I'm really excited that we're getting the opportunity to bring your expertise into the podcast. But the thing that I have been promising my listeners is that we would get you in and that we would really unpick. Use my story of the Camino as a way to unpick some of this expertise, so it anchors it in a story and we can start. Then we can just see where we go, because we never know where it's going to go, which is really I like that.
Speaker 2:I like that.
Speaker 1:So, first of all, I'd really like to invite you to just tell us a bit about you, anything or nothing, whatever you want to say, just to kind of give some context to who you are, why you're so excited and passionate about your work, how you work, anything at all, okay.
Speaker 2:So I think there's two main things that define me, besides the, you know, being a mom and that part of life, um, I am what I call myself a global nomad. I've lived in different places and, uh, I've had to adapt and reinvent Um, but I think that's also where the whole mind and body connection comes into play as well. So I'll get into that in a in in a little bit. So that's one side of it. And then I'm um, I am an endurance athlete. I, I think I my parents would say that I, I started running before I started walking. So I think running is the main thing. That. But I also do triathlons. So again, there's a lot of um, the body and mind connection there as well, but in very different ways.
Speaker 2:So, you know, the body and mind connection that is so important to me every time I move, because I think my body will sometimes give me signals before I've processed in my brain, especially, you know, because you step into a new place, you need to meet new people, you need to make new friends. After a certain, after a few times, you become pretty quick at with the process of realizing. You know, I think I'm going to get along with this person. I don't think I'm going to get along with this person. I feel like it often comes from my body before it comes from my brain.
Speaker 2:So that's one side, and then in sports it's the whole thing of like. Always, sports is stress as well, right? Especially I've done an Ironman. That's a lot of stress in my body, so it's always that pushing and pulling in my body. So it's always that pushing and pulling. But and it's not just listening to my body, the way that we usually think about like um, waiting for a very big signal from my body, it's it's actually being in constant communication. So I will do things like talk to my body, sometimes like I'll tell my legs, please a little bit more, or there is. So then there's that, that side as well, which is um, which I think sports is very good for for developing I think, the more interceptive side of of that sense um. So they're very they're two different things but they're equally important in in in a big part of my life and who I am.
Speaker 1:I can't think. I can't think there's anybody in the world who's quite done what you've just done there. This is just fascinating to me how you you've used these two integral parts of your life story and brought them together into examining the mind-body connection. I just find that really fascinating. And for me, the mind-body connection came because I wasn't listening to my body. I thought I knew how to take care of it. I thought I was taking care of it but I was adding more pressure to it, and it wasn't until my body it literally felt like every cell in my body was screaming at me that I actually really learned to listen which is a bit of a sad way to to do it and and obviously caused me an enormous amount of stress and I imploded my life and yeah, but that still that. That was my way to it. And then I retrained as a zen yoga teacher. I learned a very deep and and quite a woo weird way of working with the mind-body connection, which I found very just quite incredible actually and very healing and very powerful. But it's just really interesting how we're really coming from very, very different places with the mind-body connection and yet whenever we get together for a zoom cuppa, we have so much to share and we find so much in common, which is really really exciting. And I think what's exciting for anybody listening is it doesn't really matter who you are or what you're doing. To me, the that mind, body and I also include the heart in in that whereas you, I think, when we've talked about this before, you'd say the heart's part of the body, and I'm pulling it out slightly because, just because of the way I was taught through zen um, but that's a kind of by the by, because it's still talking about the physical sensations and and that constant, continual conversation, where for me it's about the mind. If we give, if we give the mind everything to do, it's too much and also we miss out on this really powerful sense from the body which you're describing in this really instinctual way of being able to learn how to move anywhere in the world and find your way of being at home in that particular place and also in doing some really extreme physical feats. It's just extraordinary.
Speaker 1:Whereas I'm using it it I use it in my work to help people connect to themselves and and support their minds, because a lot of the people I, most of the people I work with are doing very cognitively demanding work, and so I'm using it to help them.
Speaker 1:Not just take care of their body and listen, you know, basic, basic things like am I thirsty? Do I need to move instead of staring at a screen all the time but also in terms of using the wisdom of the body and the heart to support their mind so the mind can be strong and think clearly and be present with themselves, and it sounds like they're all very, very different things, which in some ways, they are, which is encouraging because it means anybody can tap into this. It's just normal, it's part of being human. I see it as like if you, if you want to be, if you want more, if you, if you want to live more fully, if you want more fun, more joy, more fitness, you need to, or you have an opportunity to really understand the power of communicating with your body, of having this continual dialogue, and I just think it's beautiful the way we're clearly working in different ways with it, which means people can do what they want. There's a freedom there, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah we are, but I think we're doing different things, but I think we also have a lot of um, a lot in in common with how you just described, how you ended up feeling stress in your body, how it brought you to a. I think in the end, that's a very similar thing. No matter how we go about it, at some point there's only so much we can push our bodies and or ignore our bodies, and and I think that's something that I've, I've come across, I've, I've had that, that experience as well, maybe I mean, in my case, more from from a sports perspective, but in the end the result was the same. I had my body became. I think at some point the body becomes the boss. You know, I think at some point the body becomes the boss. You know, I think we, we think our brains, are going to, are going to overcome everything and are going to push everything, but at some point our bodies do become the bosses. They just, they just stop and then that's it. You're like, okay, you're not listening to me, so I am going to make sure that I'm going to get what I want, type of thing, and it's fair right. So I think it's that relationship, that constant relationship. And the other thing I noticed in my world is that, again, it's you know, I also work with mental skills a lot in terms of the whole like of um, the whole like, uh, not just, you know, in terms of resilience and stress and everything, um, but I do I do find that people forget that it's their bodies that take them to places and in the case of when we move from one place to the other, it's our feet, our bodies that took us there and it's, you know, we need.
Speaker 2:There's also a need for some grounding, I think, especially if you stay in this type of life.
Speaker 2:I have, you know, I it's funny because I've heard different words from different people who have grown up in this because in this type of life, because I started this when I was a kid, so I'm what people know as an adult, third culture kid, and we've been called floaters because we have a little bit of trouble in actually grounding, and that's all to do with our relationship of our body, with where we are to do, with our relationship of our body, with where we are, um, so, and for me, that's why running is so important.
Speaker 2:That's really how I ground myself. I almost feel like I need to catch up, because everyone else around me has been stepping on that ground for very long and now I need to pound that ground so I can earn my my piece of like home for now, whatever, but it's, it is a grounding type of of interesting and it's my body right, it's my there is that that connection to the earth of your body means that, yes, you're right, I'm just thinking of that pounding the earth, and the path becomes part of you, you know.
Speaker 1:And so, for me, walking the Camino I was so aware of the it was different than walking a footpath, even though a lot of footpaths are very similar. But it was a very, very, very old, well-worn path, because it's a pilgrimage and all paths lead to Santiago, and there was something deeply connective for me between my body, my feet in particular, and I was very conscious of treading where thousands of humans had trod for hundreds of years. It just felt very powerful and that was the calling, the calling to go and walk that way. It's quite extraordinary. But what I also liked, and it's interesting for me, is that on the Camino, you're walking through and there's also something beautiful about that because you're not becoming part of it.
Speaker 1:You're never going to pass that house again, you're, you're never going to go through that district again. You're never going to walk past those dogs, vegetables, uh, wine fences, as I called them, because the gardens in Portugal were all like fenced by little wine vines, you know, but but. So that's different and I suppose that's like, and that's not so. What you're doing is deliberately not doing that. You're making sure you're not just treading. Once you're you're, you're pounding your. It's a bit like, um, I'm thinking of you know, you take a dog for a walk and they're like this is terrible thing to say. Now I'm thinking they're marking their territory, but it is like that isn't you're claiming the earth. You're saying this is my path and I'm going to run it until I've kind of caught up. So I'm, my feet become part of the path. I, there's something really. Yeah, I really like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's what it is, though it's like it's that need and I would say again, it comes more from my body than my mind that need to feel like, okay, I belong here for now, or which is, I have to say, like I was just in Portugal and there's this place I run in it called Edisaita, which is like by it's a surf town and I have part of my family from my maternal grandfather is from there and I do feel like there is, you know, this is mine. I'm running around there, going on like the cobblestones, and there is a different feeling of maybe I don't need to pound the ground as much, maybe I don't need. There is a different feeling of maybe I don't need to pound the ground as much, maybe I don't need, but there is. There is a feeling in my body of OK, you know what, this is also mine and I don't necessarily feel that in other places. So I think there is yeah, I think it's.
Speaker 2:It's. It's exactly what you were saying. Maybe it's the territorial type of need of, of, of um belonging. I think that's what it is the sense of place.
Speaker 1:This is my home, these, these are the trees I walk past, this is this, this for me. There's something in the, the trees, outside the window and noticing the seasons changing, so that I am, and I'm still here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, so it's, yeah, it's all how we show up in the in, in in the sense of like, how we take our bodies and show up in a place, how we feel in a place. And again, it's that whole mind and body connection. It's not just our eyes looking and listening, it's how am I feeling, how is my scenery, the grounding, how am I feeling all of that? How is that coming into myself as a whole?
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, I'm going to be walking around thinking, having your words running through my mind, because sometimes I mean I've been here seven years and sometimes I'm still like it's new and part of that's exciting and part of it's because I'm I have this. I know I have this assumption that other people have been here longer and I we went to an open garden in the village a couple of months ago just because it's so joyful to go see other people's gardens, because all the gardens here are hidden, so it's, you know, it's like very sneaky, but you know, if somebody opens their garden, you're like wow, I didn't know this was here. It gives you more of a sense of place and understanding of the, the history of the place as well. But, um, the, the people over to their house, have been here seven years as well. So I was like, oh so I'm not the newest person here and that there is this flow of people coming in and out, although they're obviously people probably been here their whole life, and then they're then.
Speaker 1:So that let me let go of some of that assumption that because in villages in particular, because they're such old places, there is that kind of you know, in inside and outside people you know. But yeah, so now I've had more of an acceptance of oh no, I've been here ages. This is my home, this is the place where I wish to be and I am part of it. And it is that feeling part of something, isn't it Almost blending into the landscape, like I just I don't know. Sometimes I like to think that I can walk through woods almost without just by being part of the woods, you know, like it's just the trees want me to be there. The ground kind of rises up to my feet to welcome me, like you're just part of a place, rather than disturbing the place or passing through it there's. I don't know if that makes any sense, it just seems like some places feel welcoming.
Speaker 2:Yeah is that how you felt in the Camino in Santiago? Did you feel like that you were just part of it while you were there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, while I was there, I felt the Camino was this secret passageway through the land, like a corridor through the land, because old people stick their heads out of windows going Buon Camino, and you're like, oh my goodness, how cool is that?
Speaker 1:And all sorts of people like a runner, one day like turned around and came back and said, oh, I just want to warn you about this bit down there. And then he ran with us and then he ended up running, changing his whole route because he just wanted to talk to us about the Camino and it's like it's and there are people who set up stalls with coffee and things. So there is something about the Camino which is very yeah, it felt like this secret passageway. So you feel part of the Camino but I didn't feel part of the landscape, so the landscape belonged to the Portuguese, but the Camino belongs to everyone who chooses to be part of it and it's generous, it has this and that is the you read about that a lot the whole. There there is a generosity. So if one, the camino gives to you and then you give back to it, and there's something very beautiful about that.
Speaker 2:I definitely want to go do it.
Speaker 1:You so need to do it. I just, yeah, yeah, I miss it. I've realized recently I'm missing it and what I mean by that is I miss the, the gifts of it, the elements that were just so simple. You know the, the whole. Not really looking in mirrors, so like being very unaware of what it looks like, you know, just letting go because I carried everything I didn't. I took less than you know. I'm pretty low maintenance kind of girl. Anyway, you know I'm not a big makeup person or anything. My hair, you know after. You know, at 56, I still think often it looks like when I was 11, regardless whatever due to it, you know.
Speaker 1:But there's something really freeing about just not not having to choose your clothes because you don't have any other clothes, you know, and just getting rid of the. And I wouldn't want to live like that always, because there's also joy in having clothes to choose from. But there's something very beautiful in this simplicity of just getting up in the morning and putting those clothes on and putting these clothes in the stuff bag and everything's so small. So there's just no, there's not really any decision to make. In the end, your only choice is to put one foot in front of the other. That's it. Your purpose is to put one foot in front of the other, though there isn't. That's it. Your purpose is to put one foot in front of the other is to just walk, and and they're just just walking.
Speaker 2:So freeing, yeah would you go back?
Speaker 1:and do it. I don't know. I just I feel like I wouldn't want to repeat something because, well, because the world's so big and so many beautiful things to do, um, I do, however, feel the need to walk into spring every year. Now I really feel strongly about that. Yeah, the, the walking into spring has done me so much good, you know the, the being outside, the being in sunshine, the, the having daylight earlier than I would have done here, because we left mid-April and yeah, just having having an extended summer, having just all that outside time, and and the just walking, just walking like that. That nourished me to such an extraordinary extent that it's just like that. That's become fast becoming an unnegotiable like. It doesn't make any sense. Why would you not do it every spring? Like, why why would you not? It's there, it's only walking, it's not really a big deal, it's about making space in a busy working life, but it is so ridiculous, it was so ridiculously good for me, yeah. So maybe Portugal again, just because I know there's a lot of beautiful places. I loved Portugal so much. I just yeah, I just loved Portugal and the idea of going back and just walking, yeah, but then there's other places to just walk. So I'm just.
Speaker 1:It's, it's the carving out time and space, with no decision other than to put one foot in front of the other, not to go for a walk, which is very different. So I went for a walk this morning, but there's still that. How much time do I want to take? What? What's the weather doing? Um, which dogs to take? Um, you know where to go, for how long? And then, during the walk, should I take a shortcut? Should I extend it? How much? What other things? There's choice. What other? You know, if I walk further, there's less work I'll do, or there's less something else I'll do, whereas when you decide to just walk, there isn't any of that. It's so extraordinarily extraordinary, but also extraordinarily difficult to put a tangible description on.
Speaker 2:Is it partly the simplicity, the disconnecting from everything else, because in a way, I mean, I'm not, I don't know people, you can take your cell phone, but in many ways you're doing what people have been doing for many, many years and it's something that is still there. That's just. That is that simple right that people have been doing the Camino for, for I don't know when they started doing the Camino, but I mean for many, many years. So there is a simplicity about it. There's a there's not that decision, all the decision, um, overload, that our lives are full of right, yeah, um, and just disconnecting from all of that, I think, moving forward yeah, I think mainly for me it was the disconnecting from the decision making.
Speaker 1:You know, I love my life, my life's amazing, but to have a break from even having to think, and I thought my head would become full of deeper, meaningful insights and it didn't. Well, I did have that as well, because there was some extraordinary things going on which would be good to talk to you about, about the, the body, but, but I didn't have like meaningful thoughts about my life as in who am I, what am I? Up to those guys? You know I thought there might be small space for that kind of stuff because it's a pilgrimage, and that didn't happen, possibly because you know I'm, I'm a coach, I'm, I'm in that world all the time. Anyway, you know, I walk my talk, but the, the, just not. There wasn't any thinking to be done, you know, because there's nothing. So it's just space. But what I found is I was able to be light and it just wasn't very serious, it just was just. Yeah, I was just stunned at how much I just I didn't want to read serious books, I didn't want to, I don't know. It was just really light and fun and joyful and freeing and, like the, the only deep thoughts going on were the, the mind, body ones which were endlessly fascinating to me, things like deciding to get up in the dark and just walk in the dark. That's extraordinary. And then the thinking that at some point you'll find coffee, and then not finding coffee and thinking, and your body does this. I found my body did this interesting thing of so I can get up early and walk in the dark because I know I'm going to have coffee within two hours and that's like a reward. There's a joy in that. That's like the first stage we'll pootle until we find coffee. And then the days the cafes were shut, like there'd be some national holiday we didn't know about, and then the cafe would be shut. And it's what was interesting to me about that was about 10 minutes before you start thinking about this coffee.
Speaker 1:I would get this, these physical sensations of for coffee or I don't mean need in a like addictive caffeine way, I mean in a Coffee, a really good cup of coffee, is a joyful thing for me, you know. But the anticipation of that and the like, oh, there better be coffee soon. I'm so looking forward to that coffee, but really feeling it in my body of like a need, you know, like very physical sensations, and then the coffee shop would be shut. Or there weren't any in the town or they wouldn't. Something, you know something, would delay the coffee maybe for another hour, and then all those physical sensations disappearing and and then the possibility there might be another one, and then, as you get towards where you think the coffee shop will be, the physical sensations come back of the need for coffee or the need to use the toilet, and then it's, it's shut. So those physical sensations get very extraordinary, and even more so with food. So the day there was one day when every cafe was shut and we literally didn't eat for about 29 kilometers and we were fine.
Speaker 1:Now I practice intermittent fasting and I found that a real study in noticing the physical sensations of hunger or a feeling of weakness or anything in the body as you deliberately starve the body for this. But but because it's a fixed set of time, it just becomes a very beautiful mental discipline. But it's okay, body. It's okay because this is good for you. It's healing your gut, it's you know, it's clearing up, you know what is it the dead cells, and you know autophagy or whatever it's called. So there's good things about intermittent fasting because it's not going on forever. So it's just like you feel the hunger and instead of thinking like, oh, I need to find some food when you're intermittent fasting, I find that you can just say, no, that's OK, we can tolerate this because you're safe to do so, because it's a decision and a choice, and in two hours we're going to eat this. It's going to be amazing.
Speaker 1:Whereas the different thing is when you're walking the Camino and it's an accidental fast. What's really interesting for me about that is watching the body go through those. I'm hungry. I've been walking a long time. I really need to eat. I can feel, you know, I can feel like I'm running out've been walking a long time. I really need to eat. I can feel, you know, I can feel like I'm running out of energy and there's physical sensations of that.
Speaker 1:And then this like anxiety and panic of well, this isn't good. You know, you can't walk all that way. You can't be expected to walk all that way in this heat, carrying all of that without eating. What could happen? And then the mind goes off in its stories related to the body needing food and how all these cafes are closed. Really, really interesting.
Speaker 1:And and so that day there was several cafes which were closed, and the first one we're like. The second one we're like this is interesting, is this going to go on all day? Might we not eat today at all? Who said there was a national holiday? What? What's going on? And then, by the third cafe going, oh, there was like a sign on the door and it said close for holiday. And we were like that's not good Because there isn't anything else until we've gone up that very, very steep hill and over the other side, which is nearly at our destination, for the entire day, no food.
Speaker 1:That was a really interesting thing. So we sat on a wall, just kind of don't know. We were very like because it happened a few times before, but never for that long. We were more philosophical than we would have been had it been day one, like more understanding that you can have this dialogue with the body and you can go into trust like you, you'll be okay, like nothing terrible will happen, you can walk without food. It's a really interesting dialogue of watching the physical sensations come up in the body, then the anxiety of the mind weighing in with doom, and then just soothing it into actually I'm OK. It's really interesting. So we're sat outside this third cafe that's closed and we're looking at the mountains and the sun and going hmm, this is going to be an interesting day. Maybe we'll go all day without food, who knows. And then these other pilgrims came around the corner, much younger than us, and one of them lay on the floor and had a full-blown tantrum I mean it was because there was no coffee.
Speaker 1:It was really interesting and then stuffed her face with, like you know, snack bars and which I just couldn't do. It was just really interesting watching different people's reactions to the lack of sustenance and how that impacts their mood. But for me, that awareness throughout the entire Camino that when I anticipated a rest, a toilet you know there's not that many toilets it can be quite an interesting and not particularly comfortable situation water taps being off, so literally running out of water on a hot day, um, not finding food, not being able to find accommodation really interesting each time we thought that was going to be solved watching the body go oh, I'm hungry now, and and then not, and then and then that's subsiding if we didn't eat. I just find that really interesting. So what do those physical sensations mean?
Speaker 2:I mean you were still in safety right.
Speaker 1:so I mean in the sense that Thanks to Google, but at one point we weren't. At one point it was getting a bit dodgy. So we had one day where it was extremely hot, really, really hot. I drunk all my water. We'd walked a very long way, we were very tired and the boardwalks were covered in sand. They weren't serviceable. We passed very few other people. Two water taps have been off and the cafes have been closed, so the services weren't open yet.
Speaker 1:It was too early and we thought, if we carry on, there's not anything like if, if, and the boardwalks were in a terrible state, so walking on sand on a beach is going to take longer. It's really hot, you're very exposed, and but we were not. There wasn't another path because we were right on the coast. That was interesting. That's when I became incredibly appreciative of having a phone. I mean, before I've had this kind of kind of love-hate relationship with my phone. And then I'm like well, like well, this is pretty magical, right. You just get this device, tiny device, out of your pocket and you google where you are and it shows you where you are and you can sort yourself. And we walked a mile and a half inland, so off route to, to sort ourselves out because we were out of water, so yeah, safe.
Speaker 2:I mean you're in good shape, because what I was getting at is that, by accepting and not resisting, you didn't waste energy.
Speaker 2:right had you chosen, and which, without any judgment because I think that happens had you gone into a state of anxiety and resisting and getting angry and you would be wasting energy as well. Right, you would be wasting even more energy than by accepting which. At that point you're managing energy. You're managing your, your physical and your mental energy to get you to the next to where you can get, especially hydration, that's, I think at that point. So, even if you weren't aware of that, I think that was if we think of fuel and energy, that is what, by accepting it, I think it you waste less, and that is that is the best way to do it if we can.
Speaker 2:It's not always possible, but if we can, that is, I think, the best way to do. It is not to waste energy on things that we can't control. I mean, you could look in on your phone and you found something else that was a mile, but at that that particular point, you didn't have water. You didn't have. So if you were to throw a tantrum, like you said the other person, then you're wasting even more energy.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, yeah, I do find it interesting that you can feel intense hunger and that the hunger can go. I just find that. So what does that mean about hunger? Because the hunger definitely came when we knew it didn't come when we didn't know where a cafe was. It actually came when we were with the expectation. You know, like that, I don't know. I have this.
Speaker 1:I had this image of some sort of 70s films I don't know what they were, where, that like they're walking in the desert and then they're all like dehydrated and then they see this mirage and they think it's water and it's not. They get there and there's no water. I don't know what these 70s films are must be something I watched as a child. But I got that, that sensation of like you, you're like, oh, is there a cafe? Because I'm really hungry and if I thought there was one I could literally feel hunger. But if I hadn't, if I had no expectation of one for an hour, I wouldn't feel hunger until about 10 minutes before. Yeah, how that happens, right that's really interesting to me.
Speaker 2:That happens when you need to go to the bathroom too, right?
Speaker 2:yes yeah, all of a sudden, you know you're close to a bathroom, close to home, and you really have to go to the bathroom. It's amazing how our brains work like that. But I'm also amazed with the fact that all of this didn't throw you into, because your brain needs energy too but it didn't throw you into a mood of uh of you know, I can't believe this, this is, this is, this is terrible. We don't have water and, um, it sounds like you were pretty calm about it yeah, I get.
Speaker 1:Well, I just see that as that's part of the gentle rebellion. So that was. You know, I chose to do the Camino gently, rebelliously, which was with an attitude of lightness, was with an attitude of this is a choice, it's not some. You know, all the Camino stuff I'd read was it's really hard and you have to have a blister kit and strap your legs up when they collapse and like you're gonna damage your body. It just everything seemed to be about it being as if it was some terrible, terrible, difficult, horrible, almost like a punishing thing to do, so that you get the reward at the end. And I was like no, I'm not available for that. That's the. That, to me, is the, the way I reached burnout previously. It's that you push through your body, you are willing to damage your body in order for some final goal, and I don't. I cannot do that again. I can never disrespect my body like that. So, yes and thank you for reflecting that back to me because I hadn't really thought about it that, yes, we were calm, but then the whole Camino for me was such a celebration of what I've created in my work, in my life the gentle rebellion, you know, finding my way of doing it prioritizing listening to my body and my heart and supporting my mind, and choosing joy and health and energy over achievement and there, but also being highly driven, refusing to downsize my dreams. And that was the paradox of the Camino for me was that when we got to Heathrow and we were, we were discussing, you know, the this long, supposedly terribly hard thing before us and and I just said I was talking as if we were going to walk the whole way and the friend I was doing it was like but you know that we can't, because we've already discussed this and it's too far and if we divide it by how many walking days we have, we can't walk it all without over walking, without pushing ourselves, and we don't choose to do that. So it's therefore it's impossible. And I said, yes, but I just think we have a magic carpet, and that's part of the thing. For me is like magic happens when you, you work with your body, where you, where you're really listening, amazing stuff happens. Because, well, I've built a business and rebuilt my health by finding my way of doing it, instead of the traditional push on through, which has become the gentle rebellion. So I said, well, I just want to do it gently, rebelliously, so let's just see what happens. So we literally took it lightly.
Speaker 1:But I always saw myself in Santiago and I always saw myself walking the whole way. I didn't know how, I knew it was impossible. So we never well, not until later, when we could see we were going to get there, but we didn't start with plotting routes and and dividing the kilometers. By the days we just said, right, well, we won't do that. Then and and the person I walked with is very much a systems person, you know, she's a software engineer, so she'd have quite happily have done that but I was like, no, we just we won't do that because that won't help.
Speaker 1:And we also always had the thing that our relationship was precious and that we wouldn't put ourselves in situations where our mood would be affected to the extent that we might damage the relationship. That was very important. So that means looking after yourself and your own emotional state and also that we could. We always had this thing where you can always get a bus and that you can always get a bus, even though we didn't want to at all, like it was just like why I don't want to get a bus, but you can always get a bus, everything's okay, and that made my nervous system just that's the safety right. The nervous system knows you. You do have a choice. This is a choice. I choose to put one foot in front of the other because I want to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's interesting because this is the second time that we talk about the Camino and I, I, I find that it's I always go back to this you being moved by this positive energy like, but positive, calm energy, not like a positive, like a, a calm energy that is in trust uh like a, an energy that also has that.
Speaker 2:That is just moving you forward. You don't, you don't, you don't have a system. You, you don't know exactly how many kilometers you're going to do, or many miles, whatever you're going to do per day. Um, you have an approximation, but you're not stressed, you're not pressured by it. You have, if you need to, you can always take a bus, but there is, there's something very calm about the way you're.
Speaker 2:You describe it almost as if, um, I can just, I just see you walking through it in a very calm way and that's one foot in front of the other, like you said, and that's just moving you forward. That's just getting you to you, to where, to your destination in the end, to Santiago in the end, but, um, without wasting energy on the things that maybe you can't control everything, right, maybe you, which could, and and there's always going to be something that's going to happen you had setbacks, you had to deal with setbacks, um, so, but there's always a calm feeling about it, like as if you had, as if your whole self had, the energy that needed to have to continue, uh, the path to where you wanted to go yeah, you're definitely right about this.
Speaker 1:I hadn't thought about the trust thing. There was a trust and there is something for me in when you make a commitment to stop living your life as if your body doesn't matter, stop treating your body as an inconvenient way to carry your mind around. That's the decision that I make every day is to listen to my body, to value my health. That there's a trust in that. There's a self-trust, yeah, and that allows me to do difficult things. That allows me to to push, because it's not I'm not pushing against myself, I'm pushing with myself. It's a. It's more than allowing. It's a like a. I'm really excited and I really want to do this, so I'm I'm just gonna do it and I'm gonna find a way to do it that that works for me. Is there something magical? There is a magical carpet aspect for me of just like gliding through, and that doesn't mean it didn't hurt or it didn't cost energy. You know it did and I mean like it's hilarious. You know you walk all day. Once you rest, even when you rest for lunch, you know you get up again and you're like an old lady, like hobbling to the loo because your muscles are like you know you're really using them in a way you can't really train for, because you don't, you can't. If you spend a week at home walking all day, every day, carrying five kilos, then you're, you are doing the camino. So you can't train for the camino, because it it is the training you know.
Speaker 1:So you know, and I had blisters, terrible blisters, and I did a very weird thing where I literally told my feet to heal and they did and I didn't. Well, I didn't expect I was still like I'd. So I just really focused on my feet and loving my feet and telling my feet, I don don't know, just telling my feet that they mattered and how important they were. And I just every night, sorry, right, you need to heal. And then, but I was still blown away when two days later they grew new skin, like how that's? Like I thought I'd just wrap them up and then they'd heal at home, but they didn't. They healed themselves.
Speaker 1:So, like I'm still blown away by how miraculous my body is, like not only did it carry me all that way, I'm still astonished and grateful, but I still just find that amazing like my feet and my body carried me all that way because I decided I wanted to do that. And then I, you know, the bottom part of my feet fall off and they just regrow like it was just, and I, you know I was wearing barefoot shoes. It's not like I, so I bought some. Like I went in some cheap shop and bought some 99p insoles to take the the pressure off the blisters, got some incredible blister plasters, but even so, I mean, there were people. Just one guy went to hospital with his blisters and had couldn't walk.
Speaker 2:So I'm just so grateful yeah, yeah, but what I keep on hearing is the stress and anxiety that can this could lead. A lot of people could end up being stressed and anxious about all of these different things that happen that they can't um control. I don't, I'm not hearing that, I'm just hearing like this very I don't even know the word to use here but just a very calm forward movement at my pace, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's not any, not imposed by anything else, and I was expecting you know, I wasn't expecting it to be easy, so it's not stressing me. I'm just dealing with things as I go along, and so I'm not hearing any of the other things that could actually make everything worse. Right, if you were to get stressed and anxious about the fact that you have blisters and start looking at them all the time, oh, I didn't look at them.
Speaker 1:That's interesting's interesting. You're right, I didn't really look at them yeah, and changing the no, no, I just like told that, told my. I spoke to my feet and then I made them as soothed as I could to look after them better. It was the cobbles that that did it for me. I didn't know there were so many.
Speaker 2:Yes they're also slippery if it's raining.
Speaker 1:That's yeah no, we had. We were lucky, we had fantastic weather in Portugal, spain. We had rain, but Portugal and cobbles was hot and it's not great for barefoot shoes, but, um, yeah, it just. Another thing that I find really interesting is the. So you talk about this, um, I don't know. Like, so, the energy of not. So I'm not pushing against myself, because I'm not wasting energy, but something else, and I don't know if you can relate to this something else.
Speaker 1:Weird happened right, there was also a pull energy, so there was also help, which is so when I, on the first day, I was carrying my backpack and I was like, oh, it's hurting here, and I was really focused on where it was hurting, where it was pulling my neck, all of the things, and I adjusted it. And then I was like, if I keep going into the cycle of, oh, this is wrong, I need to adjust it here. Oh, I need to lift it up. Oh, it's not packed properly. Oh, I can't carry it, like the, you know the, treating it as a big problem that needed to be solved, that's not, it's no fun, I'm not enjoying this.
Speaker 1:So I just like, let go into the trust of it's going to settle, it'll be fine, you know I've no idea if I can carry everything that I need to, but here I am. I've done my best. I've weighed everything. This is the least I can carry. And um the second day I was about halfway through the second day this really weird thing happened. I don't know if you can speak to it. It felt like somebody had lifted my backpack and was carrying it. It was like somebody had got my backpack and was holding it behind me, like the weight came off my shoulders do you think it could do good?
Speaker 2:it could be because of um, when you were looking for that, or if you had kept on looking for the, the, the place where it wouldn't feel wrong anymore. It's almost like what we do in life when we're looking for the, the, the place where it wouldn't feel wrong anymore. It's almost like what we do in life when we're looking for perfection. Yes, all that energy that goes into looking for perfection, um which I sometimes even, you know, like I was. You were talking about that.
Speaker 2:I was thinking of running shoes, um which I think there are all different types of running shoes, but sometimes I feel like people are looking for a perfect running, a perfect pair of running shoes. I don't know that. You know that exists in terms of it's gonna, you know, it's not always going to be comfortable. So, and I think it goes back to the whole thing of acceptance instead, instead of looking for perfection, you just found a place in your body that, hey, you know it feels I can do this. It's here and I've gotten used to it, and now I'm not. Maybe I don't know if that's like the carrying someone picking up your backpack. It was an extraordinary feeling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was an extraordinary feeling. It was sooner than well. Actually, I didn't expect it at all, but with hindsight, because I can see as time went on, the backpack felt lighter and lighter because you just get fitter and fitter and there's times when you just feel superhuman, just like marching up hills, going like. That was just so funny to me. We were both feeling sick, particularly on fasting, accidental fasting days. It was suddenly like you switch into this. I don't know if you're switching from glucose to um ketone. I don't know what it was, I've no idea, I don't really care, you know. But I remember often walking up a hill overtaking loads of people hadn't eaten all day, you know and like the backpack doesn't weigh anything. When you take it off it's kind of weird because you start floating and like I want it back. You know that kind of really weird physical sensations.
Speaker 1:Another thing I had was the whole like we were talking about earlier the gratitude for the path itself existing and the thousands of people have walked for nearly 2 000 years along this route and that and I had this belief that that the ground would rise up to meet me. It was almost like a prayer of uh, an expectation that was part of my magic carpet thing was like so the ground will rise up to meet me, it will support me, the ground will support me. The ground, the, the path wants me there, it welcomes me, it and, and carrying the expectation that everywhere I went, I would be, uh, welcomed and taken care of and appreciated, and so I held that intention and it, it. There was times when I was walking through, oh, the beautiful woodland and things and you know you get that really soft and it earth that feels like it's padded, you know especially after cobbles, you know like yeah, and it's peaty, dark and you can smell the earth and it just felt so good and nourishing.
Speaker 1:So it was like the energy coming through the earth is also kind of yeah, lots of sources of fueling, yeah, mind, body, soul, heart, which is lots of sources.
Speaker 2:I think, and maybe that's maybe it has to do with the simplicity mixed with when you're, when you're putting your body through a different type of exercise, any type of, or a different limit, then it starts, it does talk a little louder, and I think that's the other side, it's like you're also. The other aspect of it is your, your, your. It's a new dialogue with your body definitely, definitely a new.
Speaker 1:yeah, I'm thinking that, yeah, it's louder right, because it is just you and your body. Yes, yeah, there isn't anything else. There's just this one foot in front of the other and it is a constant dialogue. I hadn't thought of it that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and maybe now you're you know, had everything been perfect, maybe going from cobblestones to the softer ground would be like that nothing, but there it meant something, right. So it's the other. It's just paying attention to these things, and how is your body reacting? How is, uh? Because now you're, you're hungry, you're thirsty, um, but you're still in a good mood. You're still being energized by all these other things that are around you because you chose to do this. Uh, being energized by all these other things that are around you because you chose to do this. So it's a lot of things that were in play. It sounds like when you were at the Camino.
Speaker 2:That just pushed you, pulled you. I guess maybe that's the other pull yeah.
Speaker 1:There's definitely something in the choice. You know, the remembering that it's a choice, the remembering we can always get a bus. This is actually a holiday. This is actually to be enjoyed. This is actually a privilege.
Speaker 1:I've created this space. You know my partner's looking after the dogs. There's like other people involved and like it takes intention and effort to create space in our lives to do the extraordinary things we want to do, and for me, remembering that and being grounded in that was helpful, instead of it being a trudgery I mean, we talked a lot about if it becomes trudging, we stop, we take a break. We don't need to walk for hours through rain, like we don't need to make it difficult and it if it becomes a hardship, we we just pull back and go to a cafe. You know we had that and that was helpful.
Speaker 1:However, in the second week, it was interesting because once we realized that we were suddenly super fit, which was hilarious, like okay, so walking 29 kilometers without eating, we can do so. Therefore, if we look at the rest of you know, once we crossed from Portugal into Spain, it was obvious we were going to make it and that it wasn't difficult. And you know it was all incredible and a miracle, and so then we started planning, because Spain gets much busier, because a lot of people start the Camino in Spain so we had to start thinking about because we otherwise we wouldn't have had anywhere to stay.
Speaker 1:It was getting like that and then there were elements of trudgery, because then there was a commitment to walk and that changes it right once. You know, before we were pootling we can stop at any any time. Once we decided we have to get to there, that changed it, but it didn't. I didn't ever mind the distance, like it was never a tragedy, like I've got another five kilometers to go before I can stop and I'm really tired. There was never that. The only tragedy for me was the rain, and I did not know it rained that much in Spain. I had no idea.
Speaker 2:They have in Portuguese, which I think is the same in, in. In Spanish they say, because it rhymes, april a thousand waters, so that's the month of rain, especially in the north.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness, it was outrageous, the amount of rain. I was actually walking up a waterfall at one point and by then my feet were absolutely soaked and and you know, and there was kind of this like theory in our head that we wouldn't need to do that, there would be a way to avoid that, but we, by that time, if we wanted to walk the whole way, the weather forecast wasn't changing and so we chose to walk through the rain. And that's when it starts to get trudgy, because it's not fun but it. But you know, even if you look at, there's a video of me walking up this hilarious path that's become a waterfall, and I'm smiling because it is funny.
Speaker 1:Like, come on, come on, rain, do your worst. Yeah, like a poncho, and it's just ridiculous. You know, the amount of rain is like come on, it has to stop at some point, right? No, no, it just refused to stop. And and we got to Santiago, uh, in time for the 9 30 am uh service in the cathedral, and we were sat in there and we were cold and wet, I mean, you know yeah that was not fun.
Speaker 1:And then we did start to get a little bit like but that was the end right.
Speaker 2:That was like towards the end.
Speaker 1:So that was the end. Then there was just lots of eating. There was lots of eating, lots of eating, and I it was weird, though, because I thought, after finding so much joy in walking, that I wouldn't be able to stop. Like I thought how I don't want to stop, and I did notice when I got home. I was still desperate to walk, but I also noticed my body was very tired, and I didn't realize, yeah, and I got a stinking cold, which was interesting and I actually reached a. It was almost like I had all this momentum, my wheels were still spinning and I didn't know how to stop, and then I got this cold and it was like, oh, it's the adrenaline.
Speaker 2:I think it's all the adrenaline. It's the adrenaline. I think it's all the adrenaline. It's the adrenaline going into it, then, while you're in it, and then afterwards even talking about it. In the beginning, oh yes, the excitement of going. Yes. So I know you mentioned that you could be Portugal, but if you thought of like a Camino equivalent, what could that be Like is another big one I'm quite interested in some of the walks in the north of england.
Speaker 1:Just because you know that's that area really does cool to me. But that's not a walking into spring, that would be a walking backwards going from the south to the north so that needs to be a kind of early summer activity.
Speaker 1:You know, walking in the dales make. There's a coast to coast, there's lots of. There's the james herriot walk, which I would love. There's swaledale one. I love the idea where you trace a river to its source. I think there's something really curious about that. I've always wondered when you're walking along the river and you think, oh, I wonder if we just, you know it's that kind of investigative thing as a child oh, we just keep following the water. That would be, I'd like that, but no, I don't know. My next one for walking into spring have you got any suggestions?
Speaker 2:I don't, I was actually thinking about it, but I I don't, um, but I'm sure they can all around europe. I don't know. Camino santiago has that thing right, because there's the there's lots of different routes. Yeah, yes, yeah, uh, something exactly like that I was trying to have. I heard of anything like that, but I'm sure they exist.
Speaker 1:I just but I don't know no, I don't know yet, but I will find them and that they will, or they will find me. I do find that once you have this intent, you're open to it. You know the reticular activating system. Once you know, turned on to looking something, it pops into awareness, doesn't it? Oh, there's that beautiful walk where spring comes a month before it does here, and then that I'll be there. I'll be there, basically, yes, yeah, good, um, I'd love to know. I remember having conversations. Just to finish up, I'm really interested in what you've said to me. I remember some conversation we had about how, when you're training people and running, teaching them the difference between and it speaks to what you're saying about running shoes, I think the difference between when something's uncomfortable in the body and when something in the body needs to be addressed, so the difference between something being uncomfortable and something that might lead to injury. I think there was something. Is there some? Does that ring a bell? Yeah, um, I think, because depending on.
Speaker 2:I think it often depends on the goal right and where you are with, with your, especially when you're training for something, um, there is a tendency to push more right because you're you're you really want to get to that goal. But I think it's one of the most important things is to differentiate that being uncomfortable and accepting. It is something that, um, if you go into training with that attitude that you are going to feel uncomfortable because that's part of training, then it's definitely less painful and there's a different dialogue with your body and it goes back to that acceptance into that. I'm always talking about energy, because one of the things that I that I tell my clients is I talk about this, this concept of functional mental toughness, which is not mine, which is his name, is Steve Cooper, I think, from Catalyst Coaching, and it's about the managing energy. You know like I think mental toughness is not about putting your head down and doing really hard things. It's about managing energy. You know, like I think mental toughness is not about putting your head down and doing really hard things, it's about managing energy and I think that has to do with when you're, or for me, I pay a lot of attention when it comes to acceptance and being in discomfort, versus when I'm in pain and I think, okay, I'm not going to push because I'm going to get injured. So those are two very separate ways of dealing with my body.
Speaker 2:I don't know when. How do I talk about that with my clients? It's very difficult to know exactly, how each one of us knows. Well, I guess it's not. It's really the pain level a lot of the times, like if, if you get to a point that you're you're, you're pushing and pushing and you're in pain, then and it's only getting worse, and then it goes back to the body not allowing you to continue, then respect it, don't push it, respect it, go home, go home, do you know? Give up that day because, and see, see how it is, uh, no discomfort.
Speaker 2:If you accept it, then it just becomes a little easier. The energy that goes into it becomes um, if you're not wasting energy worrying about it, it all becomes a little easier, just um, and even a little bit of pain. Discomfort is pain. So accepting some of that pain which is, I think, what you were talking about the whole time, instead of bringing more stress and anxiety into it, it's accepting it. It's like, okay, this, you know, like running, for example, doing 400 meter repeats. They're painful. So the the more you accept that, then, um the less fatigue you're gonna you're gonna produce from the anxiety of feeling in discomfort. And so it's all again going back to that, um managing your energy, which I think is what you did in the Camino.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it sounds like it, because there's something magical there for me that happened, that I'm still exploring, because I still find it. You know, how on earth did I walk so far when I wasn't capable of walking that far? And not only that, that, there is something really interesting for me in that feeling of super humanness. When you stay with the discomfort, so getting up in the morning, obviously you're tired, because normally if you went for a long walk at home you'd rest the next day, right, but you don't. You get up, you put a heavy backpack on and you put one foot in front of the other and when I was getting up in the mornings I was hobbling, you know, with just a, just the stiffness and the achiness, like because I've stretched the muscle, you know the muscles of, so now they've got to get going.
Speaker 1:And if I'd been at home, my mind would have said some. There would have been a story in my mind like are there something wrong? What's wrong with you? You need to. You know, either go and see my functional medicine guy, get something fixed, you know, like it would have been a problem to be solved, whereas what happened on the camino is, by the time we'd walked I don't know. A few meters it started to ease and then a kilometer in there's nothing like it's gone. It's all gone and it just is that. For me, there's something very interesting and very curious and magical, both about the ability of our bodies, when respected and loved and cared for, to carry us far further, into far more exciting adventures than we could imagine, and also something about the mind, and when you soothe the mind how it just settles into okay.
Speaker 1:So there's some discomfort. I'm keeping an eye on it because we're not going into injury.
Speaker 2:You know, knowing the difference and exploring the difference you don't always know, so you've got to just listen and have that it's the listening part, the, and I think that's something that it's not just sports that teaches us, but I, I in sports you're forced to pay attention to your body, and the more you do it, the more you you learn to to uh, listen to the signals that your body's giving you. They're always, I think the body's always giving those signals, but we just ignore them. But in sports it becomes I think that's one of the, the, the beauties of sports, and then, if we can bring that into, we bring that awareness into the rest of our lives, um, then it is a life-changing approach. It's uh, because we do start paying attention to the fact that, okay, I'm going into work and this person I, you know this my boss, for example. How is my boss making me feel? Where in my body am I feeling this discomfort? And it can become almost injury-like, and so I think that's one of the things that, yes, practiced in sports. We learn to, um, where, how our body speak, um, so the whole mind, body connection, and uh, because we have its body wisdom, its body language, but our own language and body intelligence, it's, I think that's the other part, it's the body intelligence. So, um, that is uh. I think sports is the perfect classroom for that.
Speaker 2:And then bringing that into the rest of our lives and then having a choice, because sometimes, yes, then we decide okay, you know, maybe I know that this is really difficult right now in terms of a job. Maybe I really don't like my boss, maybe it's making me feel like this, but I really want to put my kids through university. So maybe now the body starts feeling differently and maybe that you know that same calm feeling, that, um, that you were able to, to recruit in your Camino, maybe there's, maybe not fully, because, but maybe a little bit of that calm feeling can come into the body as well, so that the person, when the person wakes up in the morning and goes to work and has to face that that boss, uh, who is actually making them not feel great physically, not just mentally, maybe that changes, maybe that changes a little bit, maybe that becomes a little bit more. But again, that it's being in tune with your body and knowing, because it's not. I guess what I'm saying here is it's not just communicating with your body, it's, it's also working with your body. It's working with your body in the sense of, okay, I, um, this is my situation right now. This is my mind, this is my body. How can I make it better? And having all of them um work together? Uh, cause we?
Speaker 2:The choices aren't the choices we want, aren't always the choices that are available to us. But sometimes there's a little bit more that we can do just to make our lives a little bit easier and feeling well in our bodies, and for me, that's health and wellness. It's not just what, and wellness it's. It's not just what we eat, it's not how we sleep, it's also that communication, that awareness of of good spaces, bad spaces.
Speaker 2:How do we face bad spaces? How do they feel in our bodies? How do we, how can we? What tools can we bring into our daily lives that can help us? And maybe even like that, yes, we face something for a while, for a while, and then we start changing it and other options, opportunities come up, as opposed to just pushing through. It goes back to managing energy, as opposed to just putting our heads down and pushing through blindly. I think that's what it is. It's the, the awareness piece of it, the, the, as you've, as you've said, the loving our bodies and and respecting our bodies and listening to them as part of who we are, because that's who we are.
Speaker 1:We are our heads and our bodies, yeah and also what's beautiful about what you've said there is that it's just so. It's a skill, it's a practice, it's an intention, but also it's applicable when there are changes. So you know your body changes. There are seasons of lives, there are seasons when we are very focused on cognitive type work and there are other times. So that approach serves throughout our lives, throughout the different seasons, throughout crises, throughout easier times. You know when children leave, when you know just the different things happen, because it is that allowing. It's a two-way communication, isn't it? It's not just overriding or not overriding. There is that there's, there's so much more, it's so much more intricate that, when learnt, it becomes a way of surfing those seasons with more joy, with more wellness, with more energy, which is just really cool when you know about it that's it right, and I wonder how it's.
Speaker 2:It's something that I didn't always know about, and there are many people out there who don't know about it and they live with it. They still have the same bodies and minds and everything that we do they have the same.
Speaker 1:But it's the awareness piece yeah, yeah, oh, this is such a good conversation, um. Do you have any tools or tips for people that would be which you'd like to share, which are easy to kind of um?
Speaker 2:yeah, no, my biggest one is always about managing your energy. I think that's that's um. At least for myself, that is the big one is um, what can I do so that I don't waste energy, and things like um. So it's the concept that that um that I was talking about, the functional mental toughness of having a bank of energy that steven talks about, is the the I want energy in the bank for when I need it, so I don't want to waste energy with things that I can. Maybe, maybe if I organize myself a little bit, I don't need to waste energy with those things, and so I think that's that's one of the biggest tips I give my clients is manage your energy, mental and physical.
Speaker 2:If, for example, I hate I absolutely hate being late, I really do. It's something that so I'd rather I'm one of those people and my kids will make fun of me. I am one of those people who will leave home to get to the airport really early, because I'd rather wait on that side as opposed to stressing on the way there. And what did I just do there? I just managed my energy. I didn't get into that space, and maybe I will end up having to deal, maybe the flight will be delayed, maybe it will be canceled, and then I'll have to deal with that, but at least I haven't wasted energy in in stressing about being late, so yeah thank you.
Speaker 1:Where can people find out more about you?
Speaker 2:so my website is called inmotion-coachingcom, so I think that's the the better place. And then I'm on LinkedIn, instagram as well. I'm not that much lately, but yes, those, those are the main ones right, we'll put those in the show notes for people.
Speaker 1:Um. What was the book that? Is there a book to do with the mental tough thing? Um?
Speaker 2:no, uh, it's, it's called the catalyst, uh, coaching institute, and I don't think there is a book. I just did a short course. They do have another course, like they have a bigger course on that. Now that just came out and his name is Steve Cooper, steve.
Speaker 1:Cooper. Okay, so we can put useful things in the show notes for that. Yeah, brilliant, oh, thank you so much. This has just been really rich conversation, which I know I'm going to get a lot of um. Hopefully people will keep emailing in. I love it when people just let you know what they're enjoying and what's helpful. So thank you so much for being here and for sharing your wisdom and your knowledge with us. It's really appreciated.
Speaker 2:Thank you, it's really appreciated thank you, it's been a pleasure. Thank you for inviting me For more resources to help you gently rebel.
