Dr Howard Fine | TellyCast Podcast

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Our guest this week is renowned consultant psychologist Dr. Howard Fine. 

Howie specialises in working with production teams and talent who face emotionally or physically challenging projects, such as true crime series, blue light shows, and immersive undercover reporting. We dive into how he helps prepare individuals for these high-stress environments and supports them during and after these intense projects.

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Hi, I'm Justin Crosby and welcome to TellyCast, the podcast that brings you the latest insights from the world of television, media and production. I'm Justin Crosby and today we have a truly fascinating guest with us, a renowned consultant psychologist, Dr. Howard Fine. Howie specializes in working with production teams and talent who face emotionally or physically challenging projects.

such as true crime series, blue light shows, and immersive undercover reporting. We'll be diving into how he helps prepare individuals for these high stress environments and supports them during and after these intense projects. For weekly videos featuring interviews with the movers and shakers in the TV and digital content industries, subscribe to TellyCast on YouTube.

Just search TellyCast TV or hit the link in the episode description. Howie, welcome to TellyCast. Thanks for joining us. Thank you for inviting me. We've got lots to talk about today. Obviously, this is a really fascinating subject. It's something that we haven't touched on on TellyCast before. So I'm really excited to have you on the show.

Um, So psychology and media production, um, that is a pretty niche, uh, subject. Um, tell us how you got into, uh, providing these services for the, for the TV production industry. I mean, I'll say it certainly is a niche domain, but certainly also an emerging domain where there's greater interest and greater need for our skills.

Uh, but this came about. Seventeen years ago or so, by chance, a request by James Cain and, um, Cal Turner when they were working at Betty. So in the old days where Betty were making things like Freaky Eaters, Obsessive Compulsive Cleaners, Undatables, uh, there was a request to do a bit of a screen test to maybe replace something they'd already been using on a program.

And I think they realized that this wasn't a face for TV, but maybe I could still offer some support and that was really the start. Um, with, I guess for me, there was an interest in supporting productions where we could help productions do a better job to start to consider the welfare of contributors.

But then from another aspect, doing a better job in educating production teams and therefore audiences about mental health type presentations. So particularly with things like undatables, where we were dealing with, uh, neurodiversity, mental health difficulties, um, any sort of other physical difference and trying to normalize that and therefore also add some layer of accessibility, giving other people a voice.

So that certainly was the interest, to try and educate an audience, increase accessibility, um, but also a bit of a tigger character. So when an offer comes along that's stimulating, of course I'm going to say yes. The industry is, uh, very much full of freelancers. So, if they like what you do, they'll take your name onto the next job and the next job.

Uh, and therefore, over successive years, I now have a team around me that supports us on productions. Um, and last year we supported over 240 individuals. individual productions. Um, although that does range across TV, film, uh, stage performance, um, podcasts. So we do cover all genres. So were you practicing psychologists before that at a hospital or give me a little bit of insight into You're like before TV.

Um, but the term were, I think I still am. Yes. Um, so I'm a consultant clinical psychologist. Um, uh, so this is a protected title. It means that to call yourself a clinical psychologist, you have to have a certain degree of training, qualification, uh, registered with the HCPC council, for example. Um, so my background predominantly was working, uh, initially at the Royal London Hospital, uh, in an acute setting in paediatrics.

So this was supporting children and families. After major events, often coming in off the helicopter emergency service. So really that's an acute setting, and I think that set me up quite well for production, where you're working in hospital settings, you understand both hospital and community work, you understand medical presentations, you're dealing across various ranges of presentations, both in terms of mental health and physical difficulties.

So that's a good setup. And then on top of that, I also work with, as a volunteer, with the Foreign Office and the Red Cross, with the British Red Cross, where we respond to international disasters affecting British nationals. Uh, so that's a lot of work to do with post traumatic stress disorder, or avoidance of PTSD.

Uh, and that takes me all over the world with, Maybe three hours notice to jump on a plane to go and respond to some International disasters to support British nationals and that could be a natural disasters like floodings and earthquakes to mass terror events and that links very closely into My background research which is trying to support and trying to understand the research behind People's resilience to mass trauma events.

So that's more than first responders And that relates quite well to TV production. You might assume my question why, um, but often when we work in production, there is a sense of at any moment, there's another crisis, another problem to solve and people can flap. Um, I'd like to think that when I see a crisis in TV compared to the kind of things I've responded to, this is fine.

We can cope. We just need to kind of get our heads together. Um, that also means that when we are supporting, A crisis in film or TV, whether it's to do with a staff member who's really struggling, a situation which feels out of control, or supporting contributors, we can come into this with a clear head and think quite clearly, where are the supports?

How can we manage this? How can we de escalate what needs containing? So what are the primary psychological challenges then that, um, that you're facing on a, on a day to day basis when we're talking about predominantly the TV industry work that you do? Well, TV and film has a lifespan to it, and we try to work across the lifespan of a project.

Right from the development phase, when a production company might approach us and ask, We're trying to make this kind of program, how can you support us? What are the psychological themes? Where's the risk? So we'll sit with production companies and try to think about, How do we approach this sensibly? How do we educate an audience about this theme?

How do we do it accurately? Um, and with, with consent, um, where are the risk factors for the production teams? So I like to think about the three layers of a production risk to cast risk to crew and risk to audience, because certainly when we are presenting something on screen to an audience, is there risk of triggering them?

Is this quite a divisive subject materials? How do we protect them? So think about the three layers of support and then the lifespan being The pre production development and the casting, um, uh, variables. So how do we cast appropriately? Uh, we like to support people when they're on location. We can either do that remotely or we can be on location with them.

Then there's the aftercare. Um, so when somebody finishes on a production, How do we support them through that decompression if it's quite an intense, immersive experience through to pre transmission and post transmission. So that's typically the lifespan of a project. What's really changed over time is these projects now don't go away.

Thanks to streaming video and demand type services, once you've put yourself on TV, that project is out there for good in perpetuity. And that does make it quite difficult when we're dealing with a story which is particularly emotive and somebody's life story might change. If you're dealing with a story, for example, with an individual who might suffer with a history of suicidal ideation, thoughts of suicide, self harm, and that risk isn't necessarily going away.

In historical, uh, television, there'd be a sense that once we put the program out a week later, it's gone. The risk has gone as well. But thanks to SVOD type services, there's a risk of this program constantly being out there. What happens when somebody relapses in two years time and this project is still there?

Does it serve as an antagonist? I don't think there's a definite resolution to that. Um, but I do think that potentially there is. Recognize limits as to how much support we should be offering maybe keeping our doors open for up to six months post transmission, which I think is realistic Yeah I hadn't actually thought about that the fact that you know that that content is out there for good now and or in many cases Not all case, but so it does have that sort of ever present Well, I would also say, as a clinical psychologist, when you work in clinical practice, the risk does go away.

When you close a case, your responsibility is done. I think TV is actually more risky for somebody in my profession because the risk doesn't necessarily go away. If somebody's presentation is there for life, uh, for somebody who's got maybe a borderline personality disorder, schizoaffective disorder, these presentations are there most often for life, and therefore not always containable, so the risk is still out there.

So we need to think. What can we do for the period of production to make sure that we are still protecting the individual against that? Against any sense of paranoia, against any sense of, uh, growing, um, anticipatory anxiety. So what can we do to support that? And it's not always simple, but I think we also have to accept that there is a degree of risk.

Um, earlier this year we worked with, uh, Joe Trescini, um, with Channel 4, who is an individual who, you know, Talks a lot about his borderline personality. There was a lot of support put in place to make sure that he was held safe and after care. But the risk may still remain present. And that, there's an acknowledgement both from the channel, uh, from, um, Hungry Bear, the production company, and from Joe himself, and from myself, that the risk may still be present.

Do you think TV has become more challenging from a psychological perspective over the last five years? Yes. Oh, absolutely. I think TV increases risk, I think for a number of reasons. First of all, we have amazing, maverick, uh, people in development who want to produce the next big thing. So they're always going to push a format.

Um, so that's the show of how good they are at what they do. But also there's an appetite from an audience that we are hungry for another type of format, and sometimes maybe not from a positive perspective. It's pushing the envelope, isn't it? Well, I, I think it's not just pushing the envelope of what can we do, because we've seen that on things like, um, uh, Squid Games, how do we transfer a drama through to a reality type program, um, we've seen that on Traitors, so we're constantly trying to push the format.

But I think it's also trying to satisfy the appetite of an audience. And I, I'm not saying this is necessarily a positive thing. There's the idea of, of Schadenfreude. Where I will take pleasure out of somebody else's pain. Now I don't particularly like that, I think there's a lot of that in reality TV. I much prefer the perspective of Freud and Freuda, which is I'm going to take pleasure out of your pleasure.

If something good happens to you, then I'm going to feel good as well. And I think we do get that. But that's not good TV, is it? I disagree because look at what happens on, um, Race Across the World. We have good stories, we have good outcomes, we're happy for them. Um, I, I'm an optimist, I'm a psychologist, I like to be kind, I like to find the goodness in things.

I'd much prefer to work on the programs which are about the Freud and Freuda. Um, I agree, maybe there's less of an appetite publicly. But I hope we can make more of those types of programs. So when you're in the preparation stage, then of, uh, a production that is particularly challenging, whether it be a blue light show or a undercover investigation, or a true crime show, uh, how, how do you prepare a production company and, and is that baked into their responsibilities to a broadcaster or, you know, do do, I know broadcasters have tightened up various codes in, in, or various broadcasters have, but are production companies coming to you?

Because they have to or are they becoming coming to you because they want to do the best You know the best you're possible or is this is it a bit of both and different projects are different, right? The beauty of the work that we do is that every project we work on is different and presents different challenges So to me that keeps it exciting keeps it novel But in terms of why people might come to us I would like to think it's because people are much more in production and much more aware of their responsibility.

And I think we shouldn't be thinking of this as a responsibility to Ofcom. To a broadcaster, a commissioner, or to a production company, I think we should start to look internally, look at ourselves first, and I'll keep this kind of a really simple level. If I do something wrong, as a clinical psychologist, and somebody dies on my watch, I will probably not work again, either as a clinical psychologist or in the TV industry, and I don't want that to happen.

So I, if I keep this at a very personal level and do a good job for myself, that's going to follow through to everything else that we do, because I'm trying to protect myself, therefore protect the production, and the production company, and the commissioners, and so on. I don't think we can rely on Ofcom, and that's not to be disparaging towards Ofcom, Ofcom are busy, but they are trying to catch up with new formats, they're trying to set standards for the new formats that's just occurred.

But these formats keep on emerging, and Ofcom doesn't apply to many of the formats that we're working on. It still doesn't apply to streamers, it doesn't apply to podcasts, it doesn't apply to those in conversation with, and whoever it is, uncensored daytime TV streaming programs, um, it doesn't apply to any of those, um, social media influencers.

So, in a way, it's quite limited in its offer, so we need to be thinking well ahead of that. And I think the principle really should be A bit like the Hippocratic Oath. First, do no harm. Is there any risk in what we're doing of creating harm for ourselves as production team members, for our cast, and then also for the audience?

And so I think if we take that approach, we're going to be that much more sensible. Of course, there is some pressure from commissioners to do the right thing, and they do have codes of conduct, but I really think it also depends on the culture of the company that you are working with. Some companies are absolutely brilliant.

They're well ahead of the game. Others, Still catching up the approach that I would like to ask people to do is to future proof yourself Is there the possibility that in two three years time you're going to be lying up in bed thinking did I do the right thing? and I think if you can think that far ahead then you've already protected yourself now and in the future and Particularly when we're talking with vulnerable individuals if you bring this slightly closer to home and think if this was A family member, a distant family member, how would I honestly treat them?

What kind of questions would I ask them? How would I go about managing this interview? Would I be doing it slightly more sensitively? We can still tell difficult stories. You can still some cover something quite difficult But I think we can do this ethically, sensitively, and sensibly. And I do think we're doing this very well at the moment.

I think the UK, from my knowledge, I would say we are world leaders. There are other countries that don't even have the idea of what welfare is. Um, I think we've got a lot to teach. And really that's probably my ambition is maybe to pass some of this on to try and educate other regions to do a better job.

So the TV industry is in a bit of a bind at the moment when it comes to, from a commercial perspective. And budgets are getting smaller. Lots and lots of indies are, well, it's becoming more competitive, even more competitive. There's so many indies out there, the budget's getting smaller, the projects are getting fewer.

There's obviously a real tendency to cut corners, and do you get any sense of that? Uh, I mean, presumably not in the projects that you've worked on, or have you been called into projects that might have Being cutting corners, you know, have you been coming on to them halfway through and gone? Okay. Yeah, there's some you guys need some help Unfortunately, both historically and current we do have those events So currently we still have production companies coming to us midway through where something's gone wrong Please can you help us by which stage the horse is bolted and that makes it harder to manage?

It's much harder to manage a crisis than a minor niggle Um, I would hope that people see us as, when I say us, I'm talking about mental health professionals, psychologists who are working in this domain. I would hope that people see us as a bit of an insurance policy. If you bring us in at the right time, we can minimize the risk for you later on and contain it.

A lovely example from approximately 15 years ago, the production company doesn't exist anymore, maybe for the right reason, um, they call me three days before TX. Can you please talk to this, uh, young lady, um, she's struggling. We think she might. Might want to withdraw from the program. We're a bit worried.

Can you speak to her? I spoke to this lovely lady, um, she was quite distressed, she was suicidal, if this program goes out, I will commit suicide. Um, so I offered support, but also had to go back to the production company and say, You need to pause this program, you can't TX until she's stabilized. Um, but by the way, why didn't you ask me to come on board early on?

Because we could have supported this. Well, if we would have asked you to come on board early on, if we would have mentioned psychology, she would have run a mile. And I thought, well, that's exactly why you needed me to come on board in the first place, to manage this. An early Well, it might be that that contestant or that contributor might not have been the right one at all, right, in the first place.

I think that's exactly the point. Sometimes there is a hesitation in asking a psychologist to come on board to do a baseline consultation, because it might turn somebody off. I think that's actually really useful. Better that we do an assessment with somebody, we offer a consultation to find out where the risk is, and from that consultation it either arises for us that there is too much risk to hold and maybe best not to proceed right now, or for the contributor to realize, this isn't the right time for me, this isn't the right platform, I can't do this.

It's much better for them to withdraw early on than midway through where you've invested in them. If we can support people early on, you've got a much lower risk of attrition. If we know that somebody's anxious, and this is what happened for that particular lady, um, she was quite anxious, and as the filming went on, she became even more anxious, but even harder for her to say no, and so it just built the point of crisis.

If we know somebody's anxious, we can support them, we can contain it, we can normalize their response, we can support them through periods of production, At the end of filming pre tx to contain it so it doesn't turn into crisis Rather than you reach that point of attrition three days before tx and you lose the whole episode which is what happened, right?

Okay, and and when it when it comes and again i'm sort of i'm looking at this through a production company's eyes if you like They're desperate to get the commission. They're desperate to obviously to make the best show they possibly can But they've got deadlines to hit. They've got, uh, they've got budgets to keep to and they've got deadlines to hit and they've got a commissioning editor and a, and a client to, to satisfy us as well.

So you can perhaps understand why these pressures are there and why these production companies might not necessarily make that right decision and try and cut those corners and keep that, you know, a few grand in the budget. So, you know, cause they're, they're margins are very, very tight to begin with, but.

But basically they, you know, they can't. Compromise can they at the end of the day? That's that's that's not what production company should be I think with regards to mental health awareness, I think is very short sighted to compromise on that variable It's a new and emerging field. We've got a growing number of welfare producers coming on.

We've got some great leaders out there Fiona fletcher, um Kim langer, uh Dawn, uh, Pantone, great, great people who are leading the field in production, uh, welfare. Um, it's definitely necessary and it minimizes the risk of reproduction. Again, because of the idea of attrition, you should see it as an insurance policy to keep your cast happy and contained rather than this causing a crisis.

It also means that there's potential to push boundaries a little bit more in terms of risk because you know they're being held. And as long as you manage that risk sensibly, and often that's about managing expectations, if you can realistically educate your cast, this is what it might feel like to be filmed, these are the different stages of production, this is your trajectory, if we can educate them through that, they're going to manage better rather than this being a shock moment.

Um, I mean, typically, If we go through the lifespan of an immersive project, or the trajectory of an immersive project, let's take a kind of a 30 day trajectory. Let's say you're going to be immersed in a project for 30 days, we know that In the lead up to the start of filming, the anxiety is going to rise.

We know that often, some people who are very body image conscious might eat less because they want to look their best on screen. Not ideal for us. So how can we support that beforehand? If we know somebody is prone to self deprecation, low self esteem, anxiety, what can we do to support them beforehand?

Also, should they be involved in the first place? But what can we do to support them in the lead up to filming? We can also educate them and let them know that the first 24, 36 hours are going to be a massive buzz. There's adrenaline pumping through the system, which keeps them going, which means they can really manage quite well.

But with that, we have a massive drop. After 36 hours, we get that massive drop in the anxiety has almost left the system, but now we've got the lack of adrenaline, so they're feeling quite low. They're feeling tired. They haven't slept like they normally would because of the adrenaline. They haven't eaten as well as they normally do because they're so too busy filming and excited, and maybe they don't drink as much.

So we get a bit of a drop, and also we get the drop shock, which is when you plant somebody somewhere, something new, in an alien environment. It's quite a shock to the system. Can I really cope with this? I think we had an example a few years ago on Bear Grylls the island where the contributor sets foot on the island Their feet land in the sand and you could see that switch of I don't think I can do this And they went home 24 hours later and that does happen in production where this is much more than I expected I don't think No matter how well we offer our talks of doom, I think often it's really hard to educate people who are new to TV.

This is what it's like to be filmed. There's lots of hurry up and wait, um, there's lots of asking the same question again and again. There's lots of times where you're asked to just sit in their area and not speak at all. Long filming days, you, you have to give up control. You've got no control over when you're taught, when you're told when to eat, when to sleep, when to speak.

Um, and that can be quite difficult. If we can manage that expectation and normalize it, they're better able to manage. So you've got your 36 hours. By the time you reach your first week, you're now into a normal expectation of a few highs and lows and maybe some clashes with other cast members. That's fine.

By around week two and a half, three weeks, that's when people really struggle on these long immersive projects. It's where, from a survival perspective, that's where people hit despair. We often saw this on things like The Island, um, they hit despair because it's a bit like Groundhog Day. I'm doing the same thing again and again.

You're asking me the same questions. What's the point? Why should I still be doing this? I've lost my motivation. I've lost my drive. Again, if we normalize this beforehand, they know, Oh, I've I not only should I recognize in myself about two and a half weeks in, but I can support the rest of the cast. And if the crew are also aware and the crew sometimes go through a similar trajectory, they can recognize it in each other and support each other.

And then also the way to manage this is to realize, well, if this is a month project and two and a half weeks So what other goals do I have now to get me through to the next week and a half? Um, and then we have the end of it as we lead to maybe the last few days of filming. There's an excitement of going home, but also there's the threat of, oh, I'm losing.

The camaraderie. I'm losing my sense of purpose. I'm leading towards the holiday blues. So that can be quite a hard moment as well. So that's your typical trajectory of an immersive experience. That's worth preparing the cast for. And if we manage their expectations and they know what's going to happen to them, we normalize it.

It's less likely to cause a difficulty later on. Yeah. And then they come out to the dreaded social media and find out what the whole country's been saying about them while they've been locked up for 30 days. I mean, that's an interesting concept because I think that is an incredibly risky. Situation to be in uh, I know we see that in programs like love island where this is almost playing out live And when you go home, you have to immediately face the music.

I think that puts them at a much greater risk Compared to other programs where you're sitting on it for six months nine months until the program goes out. You've had time to prepare um, that can be a real shock to the system and Most often when we're putting ourselves on screen, we're offering a public persona and now it's all revealed.

How does that discrepancy occur between my private persona and the public persona? Um, that's a real challenge to suddenly be thrown into the limelight. Um, and I think that's probably one of our most riskiest groups are the groups like the live programs, the things like strictly the things like, um, Love Island.

And do you, and you're involved with productions, not necessarily those exact productions, but you may or may not, but are you involved with that post TX support then? And is, and how long does that last? Um, so typically we would be around, we would offer our services up to six months post TX. Uh, TX. Um, I think that's an appropriate time frame.

Uh, not all production needs it, but certainly we offer it. And there'll be some cases where we say we will definitely need to speak to some contributors pre TX, post TX. That really depends on what comes up at the baseline consultations. And then also through production, how do they behave, how do they manage.

other things that need holding. If we know somebody is particularly prone to anxiety or depression, they're less likely to cope with public scrutiny, they've got a history of bullying for example, they might need a little bit more hand holding and that should be containable. So we've talked about cast members, we haven't talked about crew members, and we've seen recently some really shocking and tragic cases of exec producers and producers of shows who have really suffered in the production of true crime shows, for example, but also these blue light emergency shows as well.

How do you prepare crew members for dealing with, you know, there may be cameramen, there may be sound people, but then all of a sudden they're put into this situation of seeing real life injuries and huge trauma, maybe even experiencing death in some cases. Yeah. Um, I think the priority for me generally is supporting production team members, the crew.

If you think of a hierarchy of support, If you can support a crew first, they are supporting each other and the rest of the team, and then they're also supporting contributors. So the primary focus should be on looking after the team, because then they're able to look after everyone else. Um, in terms of supports for production team members who are working on, um, the more immersive or where they're being exposed to potentially traumatic and emotive material.

There's things that they can do beforehand. So often we might go into production companies and offer a mental health awareness course to help them understand where the risk might be, what they might be exposed to, particularly when they're exposed to traumatic material, whether it's through a narrative approach or visual, um, if they're actually first on the scene recording particularly difficult material or for those who are working on the archives.

If we can prepare them beforehand, if we can talk them through, um, PTSD protocols and interview techniques to make sure that they're not being overexposed themselves or overexposed in the cast, and that certainly protects them. Again, we can talk them through the trajectory of mood through exposure. They know what to look out for themselves and their team.

Uh, and then also for the cast, and also what might happen afterwards. One of the primary ideas behind this is to try and engender this idea of resilience. So why are we doing a program in the first place? And maybe this isn't just for True Lie, true, true crime programs. I'd say this should be true for any project we try to do in TV.

If we've got a sense of purpose, we're going to be more resilient. I would hope that we have the opportunity not just to do a job because we want to do it, because it pays the bills. And I know in this current economic climate it's not always easy to have that choice. But when we do a project we should try and find another reason for doing this, being, is there a potential to grow in terms of continued professional development?

Can I get something more out of this? Can I learn a new skill? Can I work with new equipment? Can I be mentored by somebody more senior? But another layer to this is, what is the purpose behind this program? And particularly with true crime type programs, there's a legacy to it. We are telling this story to make sure this story doesn't just disappear.

Often, when we hear about victims of Normally just a small part of the story, they are the victim. We very rarely get to hear their backstory. We normally hear more about the perpetrators of the crime. And when we do these programs, then we start to hear a little bit more about the character. So, for us, we're helping keep the memory of the character alive.

So we're also bearing witness. And I think if we have that sense of purpose, we're more likely to be resilient. If you don't have purpose, if you tread water for too long, what happens? You get tired. So I think in any of our jobs, we should try to find our sense of purpose and make meaning of what we're doing.

So that's one of the key criteria for a job is find your sense of purpose. But that must be difficult on, true crime has had an explosion over the last five years. It's a huge demand for it. Not surprising. Yeah. Um, I mean, we all, we want to watch these programs because we want to be the sleuth. We want to solve the crime before we We get to the end of the program.

That's that kind of excitement, and that's the bit that entices us. But that's, that's true. But equally, there are many cases where, you know, the people involved don't want those stories to be told. There are, you know, these are relatives who've suffered loss and suffered traumatic situations as well. Do you think true crime is starting to get out of control?

This demand? for this type of storytelling? Well, I think there's a few aspects of this. Um, I would say we are feeding the hunger of an audience. They are interested. Um, we're telling stories that might not have been told before. I do think we've got a responsibility to tell the story in a sensitive manner, because whilst this information already might be in the public domain, how can we tell it sensitively?

How can we be sensitive both to the victim's families, but even the perpetrator's families that are also stuck in this? So how can we support people appropriately? Um, and, um, I think there's also an element here of making sure that we do this in a very sensible way where we give people options and voices The jury was a great example of that where they went to screen dogs, um, the jury that was on channel four earlier 2023, they did a fantastic job of approaching the real families that were affected by the murder in that case, uh, to make sure that they had a voice in it, um, that they knew what was happening in the project, even give them permission.

Can we have permission for me to tell this story? Um, so a lot of support was offered along that journey, which I I think other production companies might not have thought of before. Um, I do think it's appropriate that when you make these programs, that we contact victims families and let them know we're doing this.

And do they want a voice in this? We might not be able to offer them a voice, but can they give us some guidance? Um, With regards to production teams, there is a lot of risk in this, even for the production members who are working in research and looking through archives. Often, when you're out in the field and filming something, you can send a note back to the production office and say, this is, when you sit in the edit, this is the material you're going to be viewing.

But for those who are working through various archives, particularly old archives, they don't necessarily know what they're about to receive, and that can be particularly difficult. And that comes back to education and doing mental health awareness courses. Before anybody undertakes any of these types of projects, whether you're doing a forensic type service, you don't quite know what you're gonna be facing from day to day, or whether you're working through an archival story, to do your background research beforehand so that you know, you're minimizing the risk of being shocked by what you're about to hear.

And again, I keep on talking about layers, but there's layers in this as well. There's The PDs and the APs that are going out in the field, they're recording the stories, they're first on the scene, they're talking to victims, survivors. We've got those who are sitting in the edit that are exposed to different kinds of material.

They're not seeing it first hand, but they're seeing it again and again and again as they work through the edit and that means there's a risk of re traumatizing. And I think there's also a very neglected group that we often don't think about and that's the production managers. Those who are sitting in the office We think they're protected because they're not hearing the stories directly But they're always on the phone with the team.

They're always hearing these stories. They're equally at risk So you've got all these three layers that might be at risk at different points Yeah, and they may be struggling with the value of what they're producing what they're having a hand in Producing just to just to delve into this a little bit more.

Do you think? True crime production, the standard of true crime production in the UK. Do you think it's falling or do you think it, or do you think, you know, with, with the amount of demand, do you think the standard of production is where it should be or do you think it should improve? For the production companies that I interact with, they do a really good job.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to name them, but there are some in particular that really take their diligence, their duty of care to their team and the cast. above and beyond. I mean, they set the gold standard. Um, there are some production companies I've worked in the past that have asked me, particularly when we're undertaking a baseline consultation to assess risk, where I've been asked not to ask certain questions, because maybe that would be a reason for them not to be part of the program.

Well, that for me creates risk in itself. How can I assess risk if I'm not allowed to ask certain questions? And that's when you think, is this the right route to go down? Um, you know, really, honestly, the problem is, Production companies that I've worked on recently in true crime projects are doing a really good job in looking after their cast.

Um, but a cast that's true for everybody and also when budgets are tight, they might not think about the supports that are required. Um, but I'm pleased that thanks to some difficult media stories. We're more aware of the risk. We're more aware of the supports that should be in place. We have a film and TV charity that's in place to support us with their toolkits.

Often we'll have access to EAPs, employee assistance programs, and some productions also lean on myself and my companies. And now it's time for Story of the Week where my guests get to nominate their TV industry story of the past seven days that's caught their eye. Howie, what about your Story of the Week?

Um. The story of the week that I came across recently was the, uh, Beast Challenge. Challenge Beast? Mr. Beast's show for Amazon Prime. Thank you. Um, where it's come under a little bit of scrutiny based on how the program was run, supporting cast and contributors. Um, now I can't say too much about the project because it's not one I've worked on.

But the reason it's caught my eye is because it highlights the discrepancy between those people who are making these kinds of projects that might've come from, uh, the YouTube backgrounds, the content creators, the social media influencers, and they're making the transition to more mainstream type production that taking their models, which are less regulated into a world which needs a lot more care and diligence.

And perhaps there is this gap. There is a knowledge gap. There's an experience gap that hasn't been considered. But this also excites me because it makes me remember, and I guess a reminder to those out there who might be worried about the current climate, that there are opportunities to take our skills from terrestrial TV, from linear programming, and take them out there to those people who are making these kind of projects that don't necessarily have the experience.

Um, We know there are amazing companies out there, particularly in the UK. We have a great depth of experience here. You look at companies like shine, like studio Lambert, like Minnow, like two four are making these big format challenge programs. We've got the experience in managing a large number of people.

We can prove that it can be done. Studio Lambert, for example, when they made Squid Games. Typically when we work on immersive projects, what do we have? 20, 30 people as a number of contributors. We did Squid Games, 456 contributors plus. That was making, taking a massive step up. There were a few teething problems, but they managed it well.

And Studio Lambert's a well oiled machine in making big format programs. I think the, the Beast Challenge program had 200 contributors to start with. So they scaled it up a lot more. But did they have the depth of experience to be able to manage that? I can't answer that question, but I can make an assumption What I found extraordinary about that story so you would have thought amazon prime would you know would lay down a certain uh, uh delivery Conditions, you know that that that welfare would be part of that.

Maybe not maybe this deal is just okay We'll make the show for you how we make it. Uh, we know how to make these shows and Maybe you know, uh, we'll see we don't know what the what we don't know But I would like to make the assumption that this was done in the typical way that mr Beast would make his other Type projects, um, and therefore might have had the same level of welfare production duty of care.

But I think that is a big flag to people are making these kind of shows on YouTube on TikTok and thinking, do we, do we have a duty of care to members of the public? Because I think they do. It's not regulated at the moment, uh, but hopefully there should be some layer of, of, of regulation, or at least people considering this.

And that's not just for the YouTubers and the TikTokers, it's also for those who are doing other sorts of streaming services, those who are making podcasts. You're telling people stories, you're exposing them. What is your duty of care ethically? How should you be managing this? It might have worked before, but maybe you're lucky.

But if somebody loses their life, if somebody loses a limb, there's a whole, especially if you're in the States, there's a whole long arm of litigation ahead of you. What can you do to protect against that? Yeah, well, I'm sure there's going to be more and more cases of that as digital, as the digital world comes into I hope not.

I hope there aren't those cases. I hope they do a good job. Yes, yeah. Well, me too, but, uh, but we'll, we'll, we'll see how the, the two worlds will collide. Um, and now it's time for Hero of the Week, Howie. Who's your Hero of the Week? Um, I'm gonna offer a positive flag to a production company that I've worked with historically, um, and it's not to win favour with them.

I'm saying this because I think they've taken on a new challenge and done it very well. Um, so 2Four, uh, have been in the process of making Destination X for NBC and for BBC, and again it's proven the depth of talent we have in the UK and the bravery to take on such a challenge, because what they've done is taken a large format program.

And having to run a traveling circus. Because part of the process is taking a production team and almost every day moving from one destination to another. Setting up a production village, setting up challenges and going. And having to reset that every day. That's a brave thing to do. It takes a lot of resilience from a production team to do that.

But again, that comes with a well oiled machine. A lot of Pre knowledge from people have done this kind of thing before we have the ability to do it. So two four are proving that we have the talent. We have the UK Um, and i'm hoping that more of the u. s companies come to us to do more whether it's with studio lambert Whether it's with shine whether it's with with two four, we have the ability to do this program So this is a bit of a shout out to two four for taking this on and proving again We can make these kind of projects.

All right well, maybe we can get them on the show and they can come and talk about the uh, You The, uh, logistical challenges involved in that. Um, and what about, uh, getting the bin, Howard? Who or what are you telling to get in the bin? I've got a feeling it's not going to be a person, is it? No, as a psychologist, I'm going to be kind, so of course I'm not going to say anything negative about anybody.

And I'm an eternal optimist, and maybe this getting the bin is also part of my optimism. I really want to put in the bin all the headlines of the doom and gloom of, uh, the, uh, redundancies of production companies closing. Not because I don't want these stories to happen. I don't want these events to happen.

Rather, I hope that there's a turn in the tide and we do get more productions, we get more signing offs, that there's more opportunities. And that's also because, again, I'm an optimist. I'm hopeful. I think that, uh, There is work out there, but not in our traditional sense. People are consuming more media than they've ever consumed.

They're just consuming it differently. And the money, the marketing money is following a different route as well. It's with, when I say the streamers, I'm talking about the TikTokers and the YouTubers, they are starting to make long form, high value productions. And as we've already mentioned with the Mr.

Beast project, maybe they don't have the experience to do it, but we do. And maybe we can take our expertise, our experience, our knowledge, and move it into that realm. And rather than say to a social media, a content creator, we've got a great idea, let's put you onto a linear program. Why don't we take our idea to them and say, let's put this on your channel.

Let's make higher value productions on your channel because that's where people are consuming it. And they consume it, as I said, a lot more than they were before. So there is, I think there is a wealth of opportunity out there. We have amazing skills. We just need to think maybe about how we apply them slightly differently.

I acknowledge we're not going back to pre pandemic pandemic levels. I know that Becky said 52 percent of the, uh, the. Uh, people are working production out of work at the moment, but I think we, we can think about how we utilize our skills. People who work in production are some of the brightest people, the most creative people I've ever met.

It's how do we utilize that? Um, so I think there are great opportunities. And then also think about how do we produce these? If we think that we have a much shorter attention span, rather than producing content that fits into ad breaks, we think about when somebody is consuming something on their phone, They're consuming it for five to seven minutes, so how do we cut that accordingly?

So I think really it's just looking at the trends and how do we work towards, I guess, that new world of how people are consuming media. So that excites me. All right, well that's a positive note to end on. Uh, Dr Howie Fine, thank you so much for joining. It's been fascinating to hear about everything you do from a psychological perspective when it comes to TV and content production.

Thanks for joining us. Thank you. Well that's about it for another week's show. As always, thanks for watching. TellyCast was produced by Spirit Studios and recorded in London. Don't forget to hit the subscribe button below for more videos featuring the TV industry's movers and shakers.