Channel 4's Matt Risley | TellyCast podcast

In this episode of TellyCast, Justin Crosby sits down with Matt Risley, Managing Director of 4Studio at Channel 4, to explore the broadcaster’s digital-first strategy. Matt shares insights into how Channel 4 is leveraging platforms like YouTube to reach new audiences, the importance of data-led content strategies, and the evolution of digital originals such as the hit brand 4.0.

From balancing brand identity across multiple platforms to the role of social-first commissioning and the monetisation of long-form content, Matt provides a deep dive into how broadcasters can navigate the rapidly changing media landscape.

Subscribe now to TellyCast for more industry insights, and watch exclusive interviews and panel sessions on our YouTube channel.

Sign up for The Drop newsletter

Transcript

Justin Crosby: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another TellyCast. I'm Justin Crosby and in today's show, we're diving into the digital first world of content creation with Matt Risley, Managing Director of 4Studio at Channel 4. From mastering YouTube to redefining engagement strategies, Matt shares insights on how 4Studio is shaping the future.

A video production and distribution. Don't forget to subscribe to TellyCast. We're available on all major podcast platforms and YouTube, where we have exclusive interviews with the movers and shakers of the content industry, and panel sessions from the recent TellyCast Digital Content Forum. So hit that subscribe button.

And don't miss a thing. Matt, welcome to TellyCast. How are you? Good, how are you, Justin? I'm very well, thank you. Bit cold outside, you know? But, uh, but it's nice and warm in here under the studio lights. So, uh, good to see you. You're down from Leeds, aren't you, today? So, thanks for coming and visiting us.

Matt Risley: Thank you. I was going to say it [00:01:00] is chilly down here, but bearing in mind I woke up in Yorkshire, it is a little bit colder up there. But yeah, it's, uh, down in London for a few days. Yeah, 

Justin Crosby: good. Oh, well, welcome and great to have you on the show. Um, so let's talk about Channel 4 Digital first strategy, um That's been obviously a really major driver of growth for Channel 4.

Um, tell us about Force Studio in particular and how Force Studio fills, fits within that strategy. 

Matt Risley: So I'd say Channel 4 has probably been embracing a really digital first strategy for about five years now. It's about five years ago that we really kind of made a point of pivoting everything that we are doing.

Into becoming a digital first broadcaster and that's not just trying to get people to watch content on streaming It's also operationally how becoming digital from a marketing point of view from a commercial point of view And for studio was kind of born coincidentally around the same kind of time So for studio was born very late 2019 and we were set up to [00:02:00] do all of those things so we're quite unique within channel 4 in that we have a P& L and We're kind of like a business within a business.

We diversify revenues, we reach people, we try to innovate and push creative boundaries. So, um, so yeah, I'd say we are probably the pointy end of the spear in what Channel 4 is trying to do and drive that kind of change in, in kind of behaving digitally. 

Justin Crosby: Channel 4 has obviously got a really strong brand identity and something that's been developed over years.

How do you Make sure that that remains consistent both across the linear broadcast network, but also across digital first as well 

Matt Risley: I'd say it's trickier than it may initially look Uh, the reality is like so our team we essentially own the end to end social strategy So if you see any content from channel four on any social platform, it's come through my team in one way shape or form And we make and publish tens of thousands of pieces of content every single year across like a hundred different [00:03:00] channels across seven platforms.

So working out how Channel 4 shows up in those spaces, um, is, uh, tricky because actually, TikTok has a different tone of voice to YouTube, um, which again is different to a, you know, a 50 year old watching linear TV. So it is a trick. Um, I think we have really strong brand guidelines. We've got a really strong tone of voice.

We have people in our team who work very closely with marketing and creative kind of teams within channel four to make sure that we know what that means. Um, I think channel four is quite unique in that the content that it It works with, can be everything from a hard hitting Russell brand documentary through to a documentary called my massive cock, uh, through to bake off.

So I think understanding how channel four shows up within that, uh, in every touch point, uh, really strong tone of voice, really strong brand guidelines. And then people who know these platforms and know how this content should show up in those [00:04:00] spaces. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. I love your, uh, threads account. That's something that has really sort of been.

really successful since they, uh, the platform launched. Do you have a team looking at threads, or do you have one individual who's maybe the master at threads? So we've got, uh, 

Matt Risley: kind of individual genre based teams, um, who then kind of own channels across different platforms. Um, the team who run threads is kind of a master brand team.

So they are the ones who really do get the tone of voice. Um, and it's, it's brilliant when we knew that thing was coming. I don't think many people had much notice that threads was going to be a platform. Um, and I think the days of kind of X or Twitter being the space where. Brands can show up and be funny and have a personality that kind of went away quite a few years ago So when we saw a new text based platform was was on the horizon We just thought bugger it should we just try something and kind of use it as a space to really be creative and kind of Bring back the Twitter of old And it is [00:05:00] working like we have been told that the engagement rate on that channel is 500 percent more than our competitors and it really does come down to Really smart creatives who are kind of given a bit of wiggle room just to play around and have some fun.

And I think it shows. I think it's great. 

Justin Crosby: So with all the different platforms and, uh, ensuring that, uh, 4Studio creates that, uh, that identity across all those different platforms, as you said, tens of thousands of pieces of content, how do you approach content creation? Because there's an enormous amount of content that's being created specifically for platforms.

And, uh, you've obviously got a team of experts doing it. How do you, how do you just approach that? Because it's mind boggling the amount of content that you're creating. 

Matt Risley: Um, you'll probably hear me say this quite a bit. It's about just having data led, audience first strategies. So it doesn't matter what the content is, whether it's a 60 second vertical piece of content or an original short form 15 minute thing that we're commissioning or creating.

We have [00:06:00] teams, uh, who really, really understand the audiences and the platforms that they're putting this stuff on. Um, and that really is the key behind everything that we do, because it is different, it's going to be different based on what channel you're publishing something to. And much as, I don't know how to say this politely, I think a YouTube short, a TikTok, an Instagram Reel, they're all kind of similar in what they are doing.

So I think there's efficiencies you can make in regards to understanding how to just make a piece of content that could go lots of different places. However, I think it's a race to the bottom. If you just start flinging the same content everywhere and just hoping it sticks, you do need to come back to who is the audience I have on this channel?

What do they want? Could this work? And kind of go from there. It's very 

Justin Crosby: tempting though, isn't it? I mean, the fact is the, I mean, it's a bit lazy as well, I guess, ultimately, but looking at repurposing content. I mean, do you make decisions across Different platforms that, that, you know, this piece of content, even if you recut it isn't going to work for [00:07:00] a particular platform rather than, you know, so you can be that brutal about it and just, you know, just say it's not going to work.

Let's, let's, let's try something else. You need to be, I 

Matt Risley: think, you know, algorithms reward consistency of whatever the hell is going out there and who it's reaching. So, you know, rewind a few years when we first started for studio. We inherited a lot of content that had been commissioned. Um, with the presumption, it would just go out and do well.

It was good content, but it died an utter death because it can't work like that of just flinging stuff out. So, um, you also need social creatives who are kind of empowered to push back as well on people who maybe don't understand. The audiences that you're trying to build or who don't understand these platforms or how they work.

So we definitely say no to a lot, which is a fun internal, uh, kind of, uh, challenge. Uh, but also we try to do that through the lens of really like explaining why we're making that decision and, and most content now we have created audiences, organic audiences who, who are receptive [00:08:00] to it. So we're quite lucky in regards to, we have these audiences we've built.

But you need to be quite selective with what goes on there. 

Justin Crosby: So we're talking about short form content and, and, uh, original or cut down content, depending on what it is for, uh, uh, uh, the four studios producing. But let's talk about long form content. Uh, that's a particular interest to, uh, more. traditional TV industry audience that, uh, that listens to TellyCast.

So talk us through the journey of, uh, long form content that 4studio is working on for Channel 4. Obviously there's a lot of that is catalog, but there's also a lot of that is, uh, is digital originals. So can you, can you talk us through the evolution of how, uh, for studio has approached long form content.

I think 

Matt Risley: I'll probably start by clarifying what I mean when we say long form, because everyone has different definitions. So for us, long form is kind of 20 minute plus. Um, the majority of the long form that we put out is either, um, long compilations of clips from shows, or some of it is digital original content, [00:09:00] which tends to be around the 15 to 20 minute mark.

But the vast majority of what we have to play with, um, it is kind of our full episodes essentially. Things that you would see if you logged into streaming or if you turned on the tv About a year and a half ago. We started publishing some of that content on youtube Um, and the reality is youtube is a streaming destination already I think the paradigm has already shifted and a lot of people just haven't realized So in america, I think recent data shows it is the biggest s fod like it beats netflix by a third In regards to people watching YouTube on televisions, um, over here, Evan Shapiro did some research recently that pointed out that young audiences in particular, um, watch more YouTube on all devices, the Netflix and iPlayer combined.

So YouTube is a place where yes, you can get 60 second content. but increasingly it is a TV viewing experience as well. Um, so we basically [00:10:00] publish most of the content that we have on our streaming platform on YouTube now. Um, and it is working. So we've seen phenomenal growth year on year. Um, we are generating over a hundred million views just in the UK on that content every year.

And the really validating lovely thing is. Well, I suppose one is we've looked at the data and we do not think these audiences cannibalize. We think these are additive audiences Um, secondly you go on my linkedin people are leaving comments saying I know that when that went out on air It got x number of views or when it went out streaming it got y number of views But I can see on YouTube it got even more so it's not one size fits all it's not the same for every single show Um, but it is interesting that I think we're evolving into a world where people need to start considering youtube as a television Destination as much as it is somewhere where, you know, you're swiping on your phone when you're on the loo, or you're, you know, watching something on your laptop when you're making a sandwich, it is all of those things and more.

[00:11:00] So it's been a very successful part of our digital growth and acceleration, I think, as a, as a streamer. 

Justin Crosby: Did you expect it to have the sort of success that it, that it's had when you actually started to? Uh, really lean into it. I mean, was it has it been a surprise? 

Matt Risley: Yes and no Um, I would say gut instinct and looking at the data you would presume you're gonna, you know, find an audience Speaking honestly the first year or so.

We really did a lot of testing and learning We looked at what was working what wasn't you throw some things out presume they do amazing numbers and they just didn't. So we probably had nine to 12 months, a lot of testing and learning, a lot of working with other internal teams, compliance, legal, business affairs, commissioning to work out what can you do to move that down?

And I'm not going to give away our secrets, but after about nine to 12 months, we nailed it. Um, a big part of that comes from, uh, having specific audiences. Good example would be, uh, we have a docs channel, [00:12:00] channel for documentaries on YouTube, does very well, drives lots of views. Um, some content we put out and they're thinking it would do well, and it didn't.

So we've actually, uh, fragmented, I suppose, the, the portfolio of channels that we have now around documentaries. So we've got one for people who love kind of blue lights content. We've got one for people who love emergency content. We've got one for people who love hard hitting current affairs. That was key to us actually working out how to give content that hadn't worked before a new lease of life.

Justin Crosby: Ah, so this is, this is really splitting down to the niche, right? And, and sub niches and really, really boiling it down to almost as the more niche, the better, right? And is that something that YouTube has, has been rewarding the content? I would say 

Matt Risley: niche and specificity of audience. Consistency of uploads where you can, um, and then understanding like what, how long is the content?

Where do you think this is going to do best? Experimenting with things like the titling, SEO, thumbnails. [00:13:00] It's all that Mr. Beast stuff, you know, and he's there and goes, Ooh, we make 700 thumbnails and replace them every 30 seconds. No one else can do that because they don't have the resource to do it. But you need to have a data led approach to all of this stuff.

Um, and that is what we have found works. 

Justin Crosby: So let's talk about digital originals. Um, you've had some real success in digital originals over the last couple of years. Talk us through the idea of, of digital original content from 4Studio and, uh, and where you see it going from now. 

Matt Risley: Yeah, I would say again, we've been on a journey, right?

So when I joined, uh, we had a lot of different kind of digital. Strands and digital kind of content initiatives. Um, and some of them work. Some of them didn't I think 4. 0 was the best example of us being really clear in our strategy of even before we commission anything What are we trying to do? Where are the audiences we want to hit?

What is the purpose of this and what it's like a three year vision? So 4. 0 is is the poster child of for me how to do digital original [00:14:00] content It's quite unique in that it feels like a blurring of the creator worlds and like the broadcaster worlds and that's really hard to do. So we're very lucky that we have a brilliant digital commissioning team who really get these audiences, they get this content and I think we've created something that feels very Channel 4.

And it feels very creator led and it's kind of the blurring of those worlds. Um, but for that to succeed huge alignment before we even got going And a real strategy and a commitment to seeing it through and seeing what it could do And now it is far and away the youngest most engaged audience we have on any channel in the business So but to do that, there was a lot of internal persuading There was a lot of uh kind of alignment between teams And all of it has to be data led.

Justin Crosby: So I've seen other public service broadcasters really sort of quite resistant to YouTube and putting, uh, not only catalog content, um, for that very reason that you talked about, which was, which was the worry about it, [00:15:00] cannibalizing audiences. Um, but, uh, but I mean, it's, it's been fascinating to see how, how you've moved.

Right the way to becoming a leader in this space So talk us through that that original strategy then in terms of I mean, obviously you're delivering on your public service broadcaster Remit when it comes to commissioning and everything you're doing and reaching hard to hard to reach audiences or underserved audiences Can you give us a sense of?

Roughly how much content, original content, you're, you're commissioning a year and, and, and what sort of ideas your commissioning team is looking for? 

Matt Risley: Yeah, so 4. 0, uh, has one episode of something going out every week. So we kind of rotate and have lots of different strands, but that's 52 episodes of essentially 15 to 20 minute content a week.

Um, we also commissioned short form documentaries. Um, Uh, and there's other bits and bobs. There's a couple of things on the horizon that we'll be launching early this year that I can't talk about yet. Um, but I think from the point of view of digital originals, [00:16:00] it broadly buckets into 4. 0, uh, factual and documentaries.

Um, and then a couple of other things that will be announced soon. Um, and then obviously we have branded content as well. So that's kind of the. Slightly kind of third angle on it. Um, but that is still short form content that is funded. Um, and it's good. So Editorially it kind of buckets into those themes 

Justin Crosby: and typically branded content when it comes to for studio Is that produced internally mainly or is that again?

You're still working with external agencies Yeah vast so we make 

Matt Risley: a little bit of it internally, but the vast majority is still with externals um And again, um, being very lucky work with some incredible salespeople and some commissioners where it is kind of, it's carved out its own niche within the market.

Um, because we own, we, we control editorially what that is at the end of the day. So there's a lot of collaboration between salespeople and the brand and commissioning, but ultimately what differentiates our brand of content, I suppose [00:17:00] some other digital first publishers is the editorial control beats everything else.

Um, and we make that quite clear. Before we go on that journey with a brand. And I think what you end up with is content that is genuinely quite entertaining, sometimes mad. Um, but it is good content. The brand, if they know what they signed up for is really happy with it. It performs incredibly well organically because actually it's good content in the first place.

So we're quite lucky in that we've kind of taken TV experience and TV skillsets and editorial quality. And kind of migrated that into the short and mid form world. 

Justin Crosby: And I know you can't speak on behalf of other broadcasters, clearly. Um, Can I? No. Well, you can have a go, yeah. But when it comes to where you think the TV industry, the traditional TV industry is going to be in the next couple of years, uh, I mean, we've obviously seen ITV studios and ITV as a whole, sort of really sort of looking towards digital and, and, and, uh, and, and [00:18:00] really starting to lean into that as well.

Do you think that it's an imperative for, for, uh, broadcasters now to actually have a really, uh, digital first strategy? Do you think it's, it's crucial that they do for, for survival? Cause things are changing so quickly, right? 

Matt Risley: I'd say Pandora's box is open and it ain't closing. So, and you know, you look at the consumption habits of younger people in particular, they are so far ahead of the curve of traditional media businesses.

And the reality is it isn't going to be long until they have the purchasing power and they are the ones making decisions in households. So You know everything from where is your content and how are they finding it which is increasingly difficult Through to what type of content is it that people want to consume?

I can't imagine a world in which everything is mr. Beast I can't imagine a world in which everything is 30 minute game shows that were commissioned from the 80s We're probably evolving into a world where it's a bit of all of that And you need to understand how as a traditional media business [00:19:00] to kind of stretch and flex your approach to creativity I think and be a little bit receptive to data and insight and not be scared of that I think you need to think creatively about format and tone and And how you are finding people in the first place.

And I think those two things actually go hand in hand. And historically they haven't had to. Whereas now, they do. So, um, yeah. I can't imagine a world in which, uh, anything slows down is I suppose what I'm saying. 

Justin Crosby: And for those, uh, more traditional TV production companies who have had a really tough couple of years and this year looks like it's going to be pretty much the same.

I think, you know, um, It's pretty certain that there's the, uh, commissioning levels are not going to return to where they were two, three, four years or pre pandemic. Do you have any advice for them? Because basically, you know, much of the, uh, of the TV industry has turned from B2B to a B2C. Approach right and that's a very different type of business obviously and [00:20:00] as you mentioned, you know Different skill sets data and and learning data and and learning how to uh, interpret data is really really important What would be your advice to?

More traditional tv production companies who are having a bit a bit of a tough time right now 

Matt Risley: Um, I'd probably say a couple of things one would be Work with somebody who is a digital expert. It could be a consultant, could be somebody you get into your business to you know, on a six month contract.

Don't be afraid of that kind of digitality, is that a word? I don't know. Don't be afraid of that in the first place, but try to lean on people who know what that is to help advise you and steer you. I think if you start from from that point you get a little bit more comfortable with the speed of change.

Then it's about thinking in a bit of Lee, I think it's about how your content is made, where it is going. Um, you know, are you able to sell it on in different ways to YouTube networks in another country? Um, are you able to think about how you create one piece of content and really flex with it and [00:21:00] stick it in lots of different places?

Um, and then I think you've got the point of view of, are there communities you can be building yourselves relatively cheaply because we exist in a world now where. You know, you can stick something on YouTube and find an audience for content that previously you just had down the back of a sofa. Um, you're seeing a lot of especially older content, find a whole new life on YouTube, um, which is fascinating.

And I think as you move forward, work with commissioners and work with broadcasters and streamers to try to get those things over the line, but then. Thinking inevitably about what comes next. I think 

Justin Crosby: so. Are you saying that the TV production company now should be approaching? The industry is a sort of a more of a mixed model rather than just the old b2b You know try and get a commission and and then try and sell the international rights for those once the Commission's done I mean A lot of production companies, thanks to terms of trade have got really great catalogs.

And as you say, you know, it's, it's [00:22:00] really interesting to see perhaps how a show from 20 years ago might take off in an international territory. Right. And that could actually lead to a new commission somewhere along the line, which, which happens, right? Yeah. 

Matt Risley: 100%. Um, and it's interesting as well, there's, there's different ways you can monetize this content.

Right. So. Something I haven't chatted about yet is, uh, within channel four, we have four sales, which is a sales house. Um, due to a unique partnership with YouTube, we can sell our, our inventory against the content that we put out there, which means you make more money basically from the views that you're getting.

We partner with production companies and agencies. To help leverage that across their networks as well So I would say you've got your baseline sticking content out yourself monetizing content approach 

Justin Crosby: But that's that's not easy though. Is it as well? That's the other thing It's like like like you you you inferred that you know, it took you a little Little while to get things going with four studio and and speaking from, you know, much smaller my experience on youtube.

[00:23:00] We're not Yet a year in and and we're adding subscribers very very slowly but steadily and being consistent with content and That's i'm really sort of starting to see the, the, the impact in terms of how long people are watching for, what sort of content. And that's, I guess, on a much bigger scale is what you've experienced and what, uh, any production company has got to learn as well.

It's like, it's, it's the long term, right? So it's, it's a long game that you've got to play. 

Matt Risley: Yeah. And the, the honest answer is it's exhausting and it's not easy and it's not straightforward. And also because it's social platforms, it changes every other week. So, I mean, anybody who's seen the news over the last month.

These things change rapidly. So that's why from my point of view, if you can work with people who are digital experts, they can help you navigate that. But to your point, it's probably going to be a long game, but if you don't start playing it now, you're never going to win. So I would say it's probably, even if you were just.

Dipping your toe in the water and testing and learning and trying stuff start now [00:24:00] Because to your point the more you do the more you learn And that's very easy for me to say when i'm not the one holding the budget of the people, you know Running companies watching this, but I don't think there's any other way 

Justin Crosby: So looking forward, I mean, I know there's some announcements you've got coming up, which you can't tell us about, um, but can you give us a bit of a sense of the direction of travel then over the next, I mean, I'm not even going to say five years, cause that's ridiculous, but you know, the next couple of years, I mean, how do you see the digital landscape and four studios role within it evolving?

Matt Risley: Yeah. My team regularly hate me, uh, because they often ask for kind of, you know, where are we going to be in five years time? And because of the nature of this, exactly as you said. You know, if I bet my house on where I thought we'd be now, five years ago, wouldn't have been. So, uh, I would say all of this is slightly crystal ball gazing.

I think the things that I could definitely say are, YouTube ain't going anywhere. Um, so, you look at the trajectory of viewing habits. To me, I think the last 15 years have been production companies and and broadcasters [00:25:00] working out how to take people from tv to streaming I think the next 15 years will be streaming on youtube and people working out how to bring kind of those spaces Um alive into how to make them synergize in publishing content and monetizing content.

So YouTube, I would bet my house on, um, working out as a business, how to make that work. Um, I think the cannibalization point is really interesting. All the data we've seen so far suggests they are not cannibalizing audiences. Um, as YouTube grows in scale, as kind of viewing habits change and evolve, that is something we will be keeping an eye on and I think everyone should do because Inevitably there could be a tipping point.

That's quite interesting And then I suppose from a from a content point of view, you know The worlds of creators and and traditional telly are going to continue to merge Um, i'm personally not a fan of beast games on amazon It is an interesting example of kind of a show and how those worlds are starting to blur.

[00:26:00] Netflix just said that they're going to be, you know, trying to work out how to leverage people like Sidemen in developing formats. And so again, I would say I'd bet my house on. More creator led talent starting to migrate into TV formats and vice versa. And that is going to be interesting. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. And we see, we see how Hot Ones has become a hugely important and valuable property.

So it's cracking that digital format could be, you know, could be a real opportunity for again, for production companies who've got that format experience. And so there's a, there's a whole new opportunity out there for them. 

Matt Risley: And Hot Ones, like. It is a brilliant example. It is a rarity in regards to how much that sold for.

Um, but that does not cost a fortune to make. It really doesn't. It's some hot wings and some funny people in a bit of a format and just getting on a junket rotation. So again, when I talk about, I suppose, agility and the evolution of creativity, it's understanding as a, maybe a more traditional production business, content does not [00:27:00] need to.

Act or be made in the same way to be able to find an audience. It's really about who are we making this for? What is the platform? What works on there and what the formats look like in maybe a 15 minute kind of proposition rather than a 60 minute and then Starting cheaply and experimenting and building 

Justin Crosby: a lot of what we're talking about is formats and unscripted I mean, can you see a time when scripted starts to make a bit of an appearance in the digital first world?

I mean, I've I've seen one or two new stories recently of digital first talent that's been able to, you know, bring in production teams and actually start to invest and, and, and launch their own short form, uh, scripts and what have you. I mean, do you, do you think that's something that, that we might see develop up next year or two?

Scripted? Yeah. 

Matt Risley: Um, yeah, I think it's going to be trickier. Um, but I don't doubt that there is a world in which you can find that. Um, but again, I think you've got to start from who am I trying to reach with this content. And actually, where is it going and [00:28:00] where do I think it can find an audience?

Banging numbers on every single platform It may not be something that you see in your tiktok feeds or youtube feeds But for fans of that show and increasingly we're reaching new people through all those accounts You can find audiences for it, but you know, it might not ever be as big as hot ones But is that what that content is for in the first place?

Justin Crosby: And maybe there's brands have got more of a role to play in that scripted space going forward. So, um, Matt, thank you very much for joining us on TellyCast. Been fascinating to, uh, to have you on the show. Thank you for your time and, uh, best of luck with 4studio. Thank you very much. Well, that's it for this episode of TellyCast.

A big thank you to Matt Risley for joining us and sharing his expertise on the evolving digital landscape. If you enjoyed this episode. Make sure to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast. It really helps us reach more people and build our community. And remember, you can watch this episode and more exclusive content on the TellyCast YouTube [00:29:00] channel.

Subscribe today for industry insights, interviews, and much more. Thanks for listening. TellyCast was produced by Spirit Studios and recorded in London. We'll be back with another show next week. Until then, stay safe.