Is the UK's TV Commissioning System Still Fit for Purpose? | TellyCast Podcast

In this episode of TellyCast, host Justin Crosby dives into one of the biggest debates in the industry—does the UK’s TV commissioning system still work in 2025, or is it time for a major reset?

Joining Justin is Ed Sayer, former commissioner-turned-producer, who shares his unique perspective from both sides of the fence. He discusses the challenges producers face, the realities of commissioning, and whether commissioners are unfairly criticised. From the infamous “commissioning hell” to issues around feedback, IP ownership, cash flow, and shifting priorities, Ed lays out the hard truths of the system.

Later, an anonymous Secret Producer joins the conversation to reveal how the “fewer, bigger, better” commissioning strategy is squeezing out smaller and mid-sized indies, making it harder than ever to break through with ambitious projects.

Is the commissioning process outdated? Are small indies being pushed out? And what’s the future for TV producers in an era of consolidation and risk aversion? Tune in for an unfiltered discussion on the state of the industry.

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Transcript

Justin Crosby: Is the UK TV commissioning system still fit for purpose in 2025? Hello and welcome to Telecast where we explore the most pressing issues and emerging trends in the TV and content industry. I'm Justin Crosby and on this week's show we're going to be exploring TV commissioning and asking whether it needs a Doge style reset.

For more interviews featuring the movers and shakers of the content industry, just search for Telecast TV on YouTube and we're also on all the major podcast platforms. My first guest is someone who's had a foot in both camps. Ed Sayer served as a commissioner and now works on the production side. We're going to dive into the critical issues facing producers and get Ed's unique perspective on how the commissioning process Really works ed.

Thank you for joining us on telecast. How are you doing? Thanks for having me Justin. I'm super excited to be here Thank you for coming in spending some time with us. You've been on a foot in both camps as I mentioned You've been a commissioner and now you're a producer as well Just brings up to date with what you know, your commissioning background and what you're up to right now 

Ed Sayer: Well, I've had a I've had a very fortunate career.

So I had about 15 years of Producing, directing, series running, uh, exec producing for the BBC and ITV. I then became a vice president of production development for National Geographic. I became head of original commissioning for Discovery International, and now I've popped out the other side of that and back in, uh, to production.

Uh, and so I've got, I've got a really, I feel, uh, a unique perspective of the industry and what's going on. 

Justin Crosby: Okay. Well, um, and I'm really looking for discussing, you know, all of the, uh, lots of key issues. I, I kind of boiled them down to five key issues that, um, that a lot of producers say to me as issues and challenges that they have with the TV commissioning system as it is.

Um, but first of all, let's, you know, commissioners get a lot of stick. Uh, from TV producers not directly because obviously, you know, producers don't want to bite the hand that feeds them. Right. And, uh, but, um, there's a lot of, a lot of whispers and a lot of people talking off the record about, uh, about how, um, how challenging, uh, the commissioning system is.

Is that fair? Is it, is it fair that commissioners get a lot of stick? 

Ed Sayer: Well, yes and no. I mean, I think there are two things here that I think people think that commissioners are more powerful than they actually are. And actually they're part of a process. So I think people need to bear that in mind. I think people kind of almost deify commissioners and they, and they, I often hear like, Oh, commissioners aren't taking enough risks or, but actually that they are actually conduits in a process.

Inside a channel. Um, however, I think some of that criticism undoubtedly is, is true. And my advice to producers is always choose your commissioner wisely because like in any part of any industry, there are people who are more skillful than others. And so selecting the right commissioner to back your project, I would say is vital.

Justin Crosby: So, there's this term commissioning hell. Oh, I'm stuck in commissioning hell. What, you know, what does that mean? Tell us, you know, can you expand on that a little bit? 

Ed Sayer: Well, funnily enough, I kind of find myself in commissioning hell at the moment. So, I think a lot of your viewers and listeners might know that I run a podcast called Amazing War Stories, and at the moment that's sitting with a couple of broadcasters, both of whom say You know, Ed, I love this show and you think, oh great, this is, you know, so exciting and I think it's that, that every producer, uh, watching or listening to this will totally identify with that, like, uh, the kind of, the, the, the hope that, oh my god, am I gonna get something over the line?

But, um, you know, for a myriad of reasons, what's happened, uh, and primarily because I think what's going on in the industry, you know, it is now ground into a kind of morass of, um, being asked to whether I can see whether I can raise, um, CoPro money, or is there a way of making it cheaper? Um, do we have to make so many episodes?

All those kinds of things, but actually that is a symptom of what's going on in the industry at large. So I, I 100 percent don't blame the commissioners at all. 

Justin Crosby: Right. Okay. Um, and we'll talk about that and talk about the industry as a whole and, and how commissioning might change going forward and, uh, whether it is, you know, still fit for purpose, which is really what we're trying to get to on this show.

But, um, so I talked about five different. bits of feedback that I get from producers. A lot of it is negative about commissioners. First of all, is feedback, basically the issue of feedback and getting timely feedback, getting responses, getting ghosted. What's your experience of feedback, both on the commissioning side on and on the production side?

And what are the frustrations and what are the ways to, you know, to fix those? 

Ed Sayer: Well, I think that people that know me. Um, uh, might say whether it's a compliment or a criticism that I'm quite direct and I think that, um, the truth is that, um, when I was a commissioner, if I was pitched an idea that wasn't right, or I didn't think I had a chance of getting over the line, I just shut it down quite brutally there and then.

Because I just don't think you want to waste anyone's time. I think Problems can come around if you've got maybe an inexperienced commissioner or a junior commissioner who gets maybe overenthusiastic about an idea and Gives that hope as I described earlier to a producer 

Justin Crosby: So that's them their misunderstanding of their own internal purposes processes and what What their bosses may or may not give the green light to.

Ed Sayer: And I think that that is, um, symptomatic throughout the industry is that, um, you know, you've got your heads of commissioning. So I was a head of commissioning, but I'd be reporting in to a head of a channel. Um, and so the head of the channel might go home, you know, Ed, we haven't got the budgets or, you know, so it'd be my.

It's my job to interpret what I saw going on within the company and then filter that down to my commissioners. But, it's a bit like, uh, being a politician. You can't tell the whole story to your junior commissioners. Right. Because, uh, Because you're worried about that going back, getting back to the producer?

A hundred percent. Okay. You know, so you don't want it out there like, oh my God, they got no money. Because then no one would ever come to you. And also that situation could change quite quickly. Yeah. And so you, you, you have to, uh, manage these situations. Quite carefully with your junior commissioners. And so what can happen is your junior commissioners get, uh, sometimes maybe overexcited.

They've, they've had a, you know, they've gone to the bar with a, a producer mate. They've come, they've cooked up a brilliant idea. The commissioners like, Oh, this is great. The producers really excited. Then the producer, then the commissioner comes to me and I'm like, mate, that has got no chance. And. It can be embarrassing for a junior commissioner who then's like, Oh, you know, I've kind of said that guy that 

Justin Crosby: I've given false hope.

Right. 

Ed Sayer: And so that's why I think, I think you do. Get a bit of ghosting sometimes and actually, you know The fix to that is and what I always used to say to my team is just go look just get back to them Just go look. I'm, really. Sorry. Don't avoid them, right? Yeah The last thing you need to do is avoid them and 

Justin Crosby: that happens though, right?

There's a lot of commissioners will kind of Just avoid as I don't want to deal with that person, you know, but it could be embarrassment It could be a number of different reasons. Yeah, but but basically they're really busy. They've got lots of other stuff internally But yeah, but they need to get back to people, right?

Ed Sayer: Yeah I I mean there are all kinds of things that go on in in commissioning and why you don't want to Feed back to a producer as well because even if you've been told internally, it's a no You might go, I know that that situation might change for whatever reason. Yeah. And so you don't want to be, if the idea is really good and strong, you don't want to feed back to the producer immediately and go, no, it's over, mate.

Soz, because actually I think I could turn it around. And it's also very difficult because if I fed that back to the, the producer, the producer might lose confidence. And you doing that and start hoiking it around town to the other people. So it's, it's, it's a careful balance of, you know, I mean, I was always very straightforward and I, and I would always say as it was, and I just come clean and go, look, it's no, I still think there's a chance, totally understand if you want to take it elsewhere.

But my advice would be stick with me, and I was very fortunate I managed to get the vast majority of my, uh, ideas over the line as a, as a commissioner. I don't mean my ideas, I mean the projects I was looking after. Yeah, 

Justin Crosby: yeah. So, so there's a certain amount of hedging your bets as well that can happen from a A producer and a, and a, and a commissioner relationship that's, uh, that things, you know, the budget might get unlocked or whatever, whatever that, that reason is.

Ed Sayer: Correct. And you know, you've got to remember that at a channel, there's all kinds of competing things that are going on. And I remember being, uh, uh, one of the. The big channels and, uh, uh, this mad directive suddenly came down from up high like a, like a, a kind of thunderbolt from Zeus, you know, he suddenly said, um, I want to make a, a program about, uh, tigers in, um, Uh, India and, uh, it's got to cost this much.

And you go, that's like literally half my budget. And, um, you know, so we've planned how many series, how many episodes, what genres, and then suddenly, you know, a directive can come, come down going, you've got to do this. 

Justin Crosby: And how does that work then? I mean. Obviously you might have your, your head of commissioning or even higher than that, who's, who's, you know, who's, uh, putting forward that sort of directive and obviously you've got to jump, right?

Yeah. The boss says jump, it's like, okay, we've got to make it work. So that will come as, uh, there's a specific brief coming down and then it's like find the producer, is it? Is that, you know? Yeah, we 

Ed Sayer: see, uh. How 

Justin Crosby: does that come, you know, from the opposite direction rather than producer's pitching? So I 

Ed Sayer: think that's where, when I said you've got to choose your right commissioners, is that as a, uh, you know, the more experienced I became in commissioning, you manage those situations.

So I'd be like, yeah, yeah, okay. And I would make that situation on the whole go away. But you have to play a certain game. To make it go away because, uh, it might be unfair on a single producer. And I go, Oh, Justin, I've got this idea about tigers. Could you look into it? What I would do is probably bung you some development money.

So you, you, you, you know, you're not totally out of pocket, but in my head, I know that this is never going to happen and I don't want it to happen because I want the other. All those other projects for all those other producers to happen. Commissioning is all about managing people's expectations. I, I think trying to be as upfront, uh, as possible.

And sometimes I think just being, you know, really straight talking with people. Yeah. And I, I think people would just rather know, um, and just get on with it. Because as a business owner, which you are, and I am, you know, that, um, You can't plan, you need to plan, you need to know, even if the results are hugely disappointing to you, it's better to know quickly so you can move on, rather than being left in limbo.

And I would say that is one of the key things. Key problems that is happening in the industry at the moment is that people are left in limbo and channels. I don't think, you know, a lot of people in channels just do not understand that, uh, you can't be, they might be able to sit around, you know, not having projects really to work on until the budgets are managed, but you know, Indies are going down.

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Ed Sayer: Because they're just waiting, waiting, waiting, and then you're going to write, okay, I need to get, start getting rid of all my staff. I need to start getting rid of my development team because nothing is moving forward. And I think that is really harsh. And I think the, the, the broadcasters absolutely need to wake up to that quite quickly.

Justin Crosby: Yeah. Um, and, and just to finish on that point then, um, what a producer takes, uh, a project to a commissioner, maybe a junior commissioner in general. Is there an order? To which company a producer will take that project to so yeah, you're 

Ed Sayer: talking about channels and which channels right? Yeah channels yeah, well, I think actually that's a really interesting point that you've raised because um again time is money for everyone and I've get really irritated when people would come to see me and have clearly just open the filing cabinet got out a few ideas and You know It every channel Um, has its own flavor and, um, it's like, you know, you actually commission your own content, right?

Yeah. If I came to you and went, hey, Justin, um, should I make a, I'd really want to do an episode about, um, the best way to make tomato soup. You'd be like, you know, what the fuck? No. Wrong show. Exactly. Wrong, wrong, wrong platform for that idea, Ed. You know, and I, and I, and I think that, that occurs quite a lot in television, is that they've, the producers get quite passionate about an idea.

They have probably zeroed it in initially to a specific channel. That channel has said no. But they've then spent so much time and effort on that idea that they then start hoiking it around town. And But actually without repurposing it, and that's the thing is you've got to repurpose your ideas to specific channels because you're just going to get a wall of no, 

Justin Crosby: you 

Ed Sayer: know, because everyone knows that a channel 4 show is different to a channel 5 show as opposed to perhaps an ITV show.

Some people might argue with me go, that's not the case. It is. There are subtle differences, you know, maybe different talent attached, you know, same show, different talent would give it a very different feel. Yeah. So I think it's being aware of what the output of channels and their flavor, you know, is really, really important.

Justin Crosby: Yeah. And there's no excuse for not tailoring your pitch now because you've got ChatGPT that can do it in like, you know, 35 seconds or something, right? Yeah, 

Ed Sayer: yeah, I guess. But, um, I'm not too sure that even ChatGPT understands those kind of nuances. Really? Yes. I think that ChatGPT can absolutely help you bang out great treatments and, uh, I mean I use it all the time to brainstorm with and it's incredibly useful because it will come up with some ideas.

I mean, it's usually, the only thing I don't like about it, it's very sycophantic, it's always like, great idea. You know, oh, yeah, I know. Well, it's American, isn't it? I actually put typed in once, you know, you don't have to be nice to me and it's like, yeah, gotcha. Yeah, useless, 

Justin Crosby: but 

Ed Sayer: act like 

Justin Crosby: an Englishman, exactly.

Okay. Um, all right, well, let's get on to number two, which is on this list of grievances, I suppose you could call it. Um, and that's about IP ownership. And, uh, it seems that, uh, well, the channels. Uh, are wanting more and more rights and have been wanting more and more rights over the, uh, over the past few years.

Whether that's changing now when it comes to co production and then, and the need to, for, for co production funding. But there has been a bit of a creep, I think, in terms of the rights that, that channels are insisting that they take and, and leaving. Producers with, you know, less and less rights. I mean, where'd you stand on that side?

I 

Ed Sayer: feel very strongly about the right situation and I, and, and, and it, I always have done actually, I think that where this has come about. is from, uh, especially international channels and lawyers. And, uh, before I'm not a lawyer hater, my dad is a lawyer. My uncle's a lawyer. Uh, my grandfather's a lawyer, but I think what's happened is that, um, you know, you go and pitch an idea, uh, to an international broadcaster and they will take literally everything and you go, but why?

Are you taking everything? Because really, you're just interested in the TV show. You're not really interested in like books or, uh, any other exploitation and the lawyers are just in case, you know, and you go, what some of the end result of that is, is it totally. Disincentivizes the producer to try and exploit their own IP, which is in the channel's interest.

Channels should just be looking to keep hold of, uh, their core IP, you know, the core rights, which is television. You know, that's the game they're in. And, but they should surely want a book to happen or any other. Anything else to build the brand, right? Which is going to have a positive benefit. Totally.

The more touch points you can give to a consumer to encounter your brand, the better. All boats rise as the, as the tide comes in, as the saying goes. And so in my mind, it's total madness to, to kind of be greedy on the right situation. And I think there's also a massive. Huge, um, yawning chasm of understanding from the senior people in channels as to, um, you know, uh, digital and, and traditional television.

And actually there's this thought that, Oh my God, it's been on YouTube. So therefore, uh, no one will ever watch it on my TV channel. But it's just like literally not true that they're two very different mediums. It's like saying, Oh my God, because there's been a. Book. No one will watch the film. It's madness.

It's that they're two very different platforms and they don't cannibalize each other. And, and if anything, the fact that, um, people might've encountered some of the, uh, the content on YouTube. Oh, I can't wait to see it in its more glossy, hopefully more glossy form on television. So I think that really I would implore.

The director of programs for all the TV channels to really carefully think twice about, you know, how many rights they're taking and are they actually preventing, uh, people who are incredibly passionate about their own IP, are they actually, you know, preventing their own programs from being successful?

Justin Crosby: It's a really good point. And, and I suppose when it comes back to the, the point that the lawyer makes is, uh, you know, just in case, I mean, the lawyers covering their own back at that point, because it's like, you know, if it does become a hit, you know, then it's like, well, why did you give the rights away?

So then they're, they're, they're concerned about their own job at the end of the day. So it's, it's covering their own back. Yeah, of course. But you know, they're just in the TV game, just stick to TV. Okay. Okay. All right. Well, that's, uh, that's, uh, that that's told a med cashflow number three. Right. Obviously a lot of production companies, not all, but a lot of production companies are SMEs.

Uh, and, uh, cashflow is a major issue for any, any business. Um, especially when we're in a business where there's less business being done. Um, and you know, we know there's been a dearth of commissioning for the last 18 months or, or some would say longer than that. How do you see that, you know, the, the, the cash flow situation and what should broadcasters be doing to help producers?

Ed Sayer: Well, if you remember the old days, um, you know, that you would be, uh, paid, uh, hitting different milestones. It was very easy to be kept to cash flow a production and what has happened is, again, it's, uh, you know, channels and, uh, are putting all the risk onto production companies now. So they want to, they don't want to commit their own money until.

The 11th hour. So what is 

Justin Crosby: that? Is that the delivery? Is that what we're talking about? Yeah. 

Ed Sayer: So what happens if you're a TV producer and we, uh, we agree terms and it's like, okay, it's all good to go. Um, and I'm the broadcaster, I'm not going to pay you. I'm going to say you go and get raised that money from the bank.

So you and the bank can take the risk, not us. And so here are the milestones. We'll tick off on it. Here's a production agreement. So you can go to the bank saying it's all happening, but now the risk is wholly sitting with you. So is that, is that what happens most of the time then is, is it 

Justin Crosby: literally banks that are, that are, that are literally bank rolling a lot.

These independent TV productions. 

Ed Sayer: Absolutely. So what happens is that you'll go off to the, uh, a bank, maybe Barclays or whoever, you'll say, I've got this commission. Um, can you help me cashflow it? Um, they will do that. They will charge interest as, uh, that interest is. A line item in the budget. So you're not really missing out in a way.

So that the company, the broadcaster is paying that interest. So, um, but the, the, the real point is at any point they could go, Nope, I'm not happy with the show. This isn't how we, uh, what we agreed. And so they haven't forked out anything. And not only that, they've held onto their money for longer. So that, so it's about keeping their cash reserves and only getting rid of, rid of them at the, at the last moment.

So I think it's a practice. I can't ever see that practice, unfortunately being rolled back. Has it always been like that? I mean, no, it hasn't always been like that. And, um, you know, I, I, I don't think it's right, but I think what it does mean though is actually it has opened the door to new ways of television being made and, um, and I actually think, and we can talk about this perhaps a bit later and I, I wrote a, uh, uh, an article on it about how I think the future of television is actually going to be, uh, private equity or, uh, the, the big super Indies funding that, yeah.

Own content themselves. 

Justin Crosby: Right, right. Okay. And that again, well then, then the IP issue, you know, that's, that's resolved, isn't it? Because essentially, uh, all the IP sits with the producer, if they're self funding it, and that's what's happening in the digital first world now. 

Ed Sayer: Absolutely. And I think that, you know, so all these measures that the broadcasters that are taking are actually in a way they're slightly shooting themselves in the foot because they're forcing producers to think creatively.

So a really good example is when I came up with, I mean, it's not like it's happened yet, but So I produced Amazing War Stories, the podcast. It had over 1 million streams. I then launched the YouTube channel that monetized within one month. And now I've, I've now kind of packaged up all the rights that I own.

And then I go to a broadcaster. In the old days, I would have gone to the broadcaster first. But now, so if they try and go, Oh, I want the, the YouTube rights. And it's like, no, they're already off the table. It's already happening. And how did you, can I ask you how you funded that then? Uh, again, private equity.

Right. So, so I think that's the more that you can hold on to your own rights. Uh, the better everything is yeah, um, and so I think that is one of the the big kind of disconnects I think between um channels and broadcasters and the production community and I I fully believe what is going to happen over the next two three four years is that we're going to Pivot to more like a Hollywood studio system where channels just become more like cinema chains, their platforms, their distribution platforms.

And in fact, you know, as we, as producers are being made to shoulder more and more risk, they go, all right, then I'll shoulder that risk, but I keep all the rights. I'll exploit it how I want. And you're just one of many ways of me monetizing. 

Justin Crosby: Interesting. So the fourth. Uh item on our list is shifting priorities.

So that is really around Decisions being made halfway through project. This could be funding wise. This could be editorially a new, uh head of commissioning comes in above a An existing commissioner new 

Ed Sayer: premiership managers just arrived. 

Justin Crosby: That's right. Yeah. Yeah, and is The fallback on his way out. I mean, so how, how do you see that?

I mean, how have you experienced that in your career? 

Ed Sayer: So I think there are, uh, everyone has, uh, war stories of, oh, my project was almost green lit and then this new person came in and it all. Fell by the wayside. And I think, I mean, there is some truth in that, in the, if a channel is, um, struggling and things aren't working and they do have a change of kind of director of programs or whoever, and that new person comes in, he or she is not going to continue doing the thing that a lot of the, the, the predecessor was doing.

Cause they're going to 

Justin Crosby: shift it quickly. Right. Yeah. 

Ed Sayer: They need to make their mark, you know? So. The thing is, it's like a pendulum, isn't it? So the pendulum's gone one way, now they come in, it goes the other way. And it's never really good for anyone, to be honest. It's not good for producers, it's not good for commissioners.

I 

Justin Crosby: mean, do you see that happening where a project will, in mid production, can change? You know, does a head of programs or somebody very, very senior doesn't like the direction of a Production that's out already in train. Oh 

Ed Sayer: that has absolutely happened to me So I had a major show with an with a production company, which sadly doesn't exist anymore betty and um, it was uh going to be a six part series, uh where we took um, Some veterans and uh, it was an amazing show where we were going to then build bionic Body parts for them to compete in different sports and do mad things with Wow.

And it was, it was brilliant. And um, uh, we built some rocket powered legs for a guy called Mickey Ell to compete against a, uh, a Bob Slay. Uh, um, actually it wasn't Bob Slate, it was skeleton, right. Uh, the Olympic champion. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Ed Sayer: And, uh, it was incredible. It was. Anyway, suddenly the budgets got slashed. I was called into the office saying we've got to stop the production altogether.

And I was like, you literally can't do that. And, uh, so we had a, I had quite a forceful argument and the end I managed to get to keep one show happening, but the rest of the series was done. Um, you know, Betty didn't lose out in those situations. The production company on the whole doesn't lose out that there'll be paid off to a point, but they do ultimately lose out because they haven't made the extra four or five Programs the rest of the show 

Justin Crosby: the marker put on the rest of the shows but also the opportunity to exploit it internationally It's only a local commission.

Yeah, 

Ed Sayer: so it does happen, you know, and um, it's It's the, you know, when I say choose your commissioner wisely, it's, um, who's going to go into bat for you. You've got to remember that the commissioners are not sitting there going, yes, no, yes, no, I'm going to make that happen. It, as I say, they are part of a process.

And so you have to give, as a, as a producer, you have to give a commissioner all the materials for he or she to, or they, To go and pitch your project properly. Yeah. And, and, uh, so if you don't do that, they can be blindsided, um, without the right materials. Yeah. And so I think that's really worth remembering.

It's, it's not all down to the commissioner's, uh, shoulders. But on the other hand though, you do want someone who's a bit feisty. Who's going to You need an 

Justin Crosby: internal champion, don't you? need an internal 

Ed Sayer: champion and someone who's going to Kick against something when it starts going wrong, going, hold on a second.

That's not right. You know, because I think, you know, commissioning is still very much part of the creative process. And I think you, then you've got the business side, which are lawyers and, you know, all the other people, all the different thoughts going on there and they're like, just can it, they don't care.

Whereas we know the pain. And so you've got to find. As you say the right champion and someone who's robust enough, especially if your show is a little edgy or different To to kind of help push it through right? Okay 

Justin Crosby: Well, we could we could spend a lot of time as i'm sure talking about old war stories about shows that were cancelled And I mean that's going on now.

I mean it happened. Uh, I know, uh We saw that paramount did that last year to a number of different shows And i'm sure there's lots of others that are unreported. So, uh, maybe that needs its own telecast in its own, right? How how the hell do you deal with that situation? But um, okay The last one is well known names and well known talent.

So that can either be Uh, production companies, or it can be well known talent in front of the camera as well. And basically, the ability for small and medium sized indies to compete with those big names. I mean, is that, is that just inevitable? You know, when it comes to a competitive market? You know, small, lesser known companies with great ideas.

Competing against bigger names with maybe, maybe lesser ideas and the bigger names 

Ed Sayer: went out. Well, I think there's two sides to talent, isn't there? I think that the situation you're describing is, what you're saying is, Are the super indies like Banerjee more likely to get something away than, say, Crosby, Sayre Productions?

Yeah. You know, and um Uh, to be truthful, yes, you know, that it's about risk. So everything in television is about risk and mitigating risk. And so if you and I came up, we started our own production company and we pitched this brilliant idea, but I, those two guys, can they, have they got, can they look after that kind of money?

What happens if it all goes wrong? You know, what happens if the wheels fall off? Banerjee, They've got the resources and the cash reserves to deal with it. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah 

Ed Sayer: Uh, you know if 

Justin Crosby: things do go wrong, they're still going to deliver You know a show that is going to work for the broadcaster and that's I suppose the bit of the guarantee That's there.

Ed Sayer: Absolutely. And I I and again um, I I show. This is after I'd finished commissioning, uh, and, uh, it was execing a show and the wheels started to come off. And, uh, and I alerted the channel. I was like, there's a massive problem here. You need to put a bit more money in. And they refused and the wheels came off.

Right. And that show went into a quarter of a million pound overspend. But the production company had to suck it up and that's because they were part of a super indie, right? You know if that had been you and I yeah, we couldn't afford a quarter of a million quid. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah And that quarter of a million quid for them is like worth it for the relationship, isn't it?

Ed Sayer: Kind of, and they've got other things going on and, you know, and there's very much a kind of, you know, the channels, they can afford it. We've given them so much work. So I think, you know, that there has to be some realism now. But what I don't want to do is paint a picture. Where, uh, you know, small indies are thinking, well, how am I ever going to get a big show away?

Uh, you absolutely can. When I was a, uh, a commissioner, if I was worried, I would go, do you know what? I'm going to pay you with a, with another company. And that's how you kind of get around that. And, uh, you put some safeguards in place, you know, I'm going to give you a really experienced exec. Um, we are going to give you a little more scrutiny, but that's to help you.

As, as well as us, because, and 

Justin Crosby: how does the, how does the rights and the money split work in those situations? Well, again, it's 

Ed Sayer: um, uh, usually it's a split of production fee. Uh, you, you know, because then if I said, oh look, uh, Justin, I'm afraid I'm gonna make you go and work at Banerjee, Banerjee are gonna go, well, okay, we are now shouldering risk.

Yeah. And so it's only fair, right, that we're gonna split some. Production fee. Yeah. And so it's just about that. It's a negotiation. That's kind of fair dues. And it's 

Justin Crosby: marrying up, uh, unlikely bedfellows or uncomfortable bedfellows, I guess, because nobody wants to work with anybody else if they're, unless they really have to be egos and all sorts of.

Yeah. 

Ed Sayer: But, but look just like at the end of the day, do you want the commission or not? And if you, if you do come up with like massive ideas, um, you, you know, it's not to say you won't get them away. But you're unlikely to solely make them yourself. If they're like mega, mega budget, you might need some help getting them away.

Correct. Yeah. But I think the second part of what you were talking about with, with onscreen talent, you know, that's, um, uh, do, do channels hide behind, you know, I've often heard the, um, producers going, no, it's just, they just commissioned it because it's got somebody in it. It's like, well, yeah. I mean, I always used to say to my commissioners, it, If you, they come up to me with an idea and I go, would you spend your own money on this?

Would you actually go and mortgage your own residence on this? Because you believe in this idea so much It's gonna be such a big hit that you put your own money in if they were like, yeah Yeah, no, I literally would you go? Okay if they go well You go, okay Right, what would it take then? In, in order for you to mortgage your, yeah, and then, and then they would start going, well, if it had a really big 

Justin Crosby: name.

So more likely to be a hit, more likely to be successful. So therefore, youth hustling with Chris Eubank, right? 

Ed Sayer: Yeah. So I think, um, it's at, it's, it's an unfair criticism to level at broadcasters that, oh God, they're always just putting famous people on the shows. It's like, well, of course they are, right?

Because nobody wants to lose, uh, the shirt off their back, right? Yeah. But! I would also say, where is the new talent coming from? Because what is happening is they're not commissioning enough, you know, new kind of reality shows. So if you remember back in the day, um, it was, uh, the BBC had airport and I think it was that Jeremy guy.

Do you remember? He became a kind of a personality for a time. And then more recently you've got people like, um, um, Jason Fox and Billy Billingham, they've came from a reality show and have grown in, in stature as absolute key pieces of talent that you can attach to shows and that kind of mitigates some of the risk.

So, but if you're not commissioning those type of shows anymore, where Where are the new talent, uh, where are they going to come from? And the answer quite simply is digital. But then, you know, that's not even really working as well as everyone expected. You've got Amazon, they've got Mr. Beast, you know, you've got all these, they're trying to.

To take people off one platform and putting on another, but it's not as simple as that either. Because as we discussed earlier, they're two different audiences and they don't really cross over as much as people 

Justin Crosby: think. Types of show, they're shot in different ways and they're consumed in different ways on different platforms.

Right. So interesting. Well. Um, the last point, we're going to run out of time now, Ed, uh, but I'm going to ask you a couple of quickfire questions now. Is TV commissioning an outdated practice altogether? I 

Ed Sayer: think it's getting there. I, I think that in, you know, TV commissioning, it, it, Was of a period, and it solved a particular set of problems that a broadcaster faced.

Are the shows compliant? Are they being delivered to how you want them to be? If you go back to very early television history, it was people with pipes going, Yes, Justin, go and make me a show about something. And you would just go off, and that would be it. And then you'd go, Justin, how's that show coming along with the, uh The Tigers in Bengal.

And you go, Oh yeah, no, it's all done. You know, and I think that actually, if you really want those kinds of new, extraordinary, different shows that can be channel defining, you need your commissioners to take a step way, way back and let the producers get on. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. Well, it's famously, you know, the, the, the commissioning process of Monty Python, for example, you know, and you know, how hands off that was, um, you know, that would never get made now, obviously, lots of other shows like it, but, um, okay.

And then finally, is the TV industry too big? 

Ed Sayer: Uh, undoubtedly the television industry is too big. You know, and I'm really sorry to say it, but, um, we've gone way past peak TV. Uh, there is going to be way more consolidation. I'm really sorry to say. And, um, I think that producers need to stop lamenting. The past and they need to start thinking about where is the industry going on?

Where do they need to pivot? Where are they going to put their bets on the on the roulette table? Because you know in my mind I think that the television is going to shrink and it's going to become it needs to differentiate set differentiate itself to other media Platforms and so it'll in my mind The, uh, high end television, that's where the lower cost stuff, that's all going to go digital.

So if you're in the game of where you used to make tons of stuff for people like me at Discovery or Nat Geo, you know, you need to be thinking, okay, those days are gone. You need to start thinking elsewhere. All right, well, uh, lots 

Justin Crosby: of, lots to chew over there, Ed, and, uh, we'll be covering all of those issues and more every week on Telecast.

Thanks for joining us, it's been, uh, brilliant to have you on, and, uh, good luck with everything on, uh, Amazing War Stories. 

Ed Sayer: Well, thanks very much, and it's not just, uh, I, uh, can I take this opportunity to say that, uh, I've got a new, uh, newsletter starting. Yep. The TV Whisperer. Okay. If you want to hear More of my outlandish thoughts about the industry and other stuff.

Please go to the tvwhisperer. com. 

Justin Crosby: Okay, there you go. Ed Thank you so much. Cheers

So we've heard from Ed who's been on both sides of the fence when it comes to being a commissioner and a producer and Joining me now anonymously is our secret producer someone who's been fighting to get ambitious projects off the ground But it's you know Facing a hurdle after hurdle like lots of small indies are.

Ruth, you've been pretty vocal, we had a chat before we came on air, um, about this, uh, this fewer, bigger, better mantra that, uh, a lot of the broadcasters are, uh, are starting to talk about, which is wanting fewer shows overall, but with bigger budgets and bigger names, and that's something that we, we touched on with Ed earlier, um, which, Might end up putting smaller producers at a disadvantage.

What do you think about this? I mean, do you believe this approach is eradicating this mid range of programming? What does it mean for small and mid sized indies like yours? 

Ruth: I think it puts small and medium sized indies at a disadvantage because this fewer, bigger, better mantra essentially means getting rid of that whole mid range of programming.

And that mid range of programming, traditionally, in the UK, has been really important to helping indies build their businesses. And not only that. But, historically, that mid range of programming has been responsible for helping the British TV industry become known as one of the greatest TV industries in the world.

Justin Crosby: And you mean that from a, from a format, uh, development and, and, and, uh, export perspective? 

Ruth: Yeah, absolutely. Whereas, if that mid range of programming disappears, then of course it holds back small and medium sized indies from creating those programs, making them here in the UK. Selling them internationally, building their business, building their infrastructure and then becoming part of that sort of elite band of independent producers or producers owned by super indies who seem to be getting the ear of most broadcasters and streamers in the current market.

Justin Crosby: Yeah, so I mean, that's a really good point. I mean, what is the progression then for a small indie? Uh, if we're going to see this, uh, uh, mid range of programming disappear, I mean, do, well, first of all, let me, let me ask you, do, do you see it disappearing now? I mean, is that something that you're experiencing?

Ruth: Yeah, absolutely. There was a really interesting article back in August in 2024. And in the article, Stephen Lambert felt that it was okay to say that he felt a healthy indie sector is one where there are a couple of dozen major players making quite a lot of the work here in the UK. Now, it's all well and good saying that when you are part of an elite band of producers who gets the ear of every broadcaster and streamer.

But it's becoming harder and harder for small and medium sized indies to even get meetings with many broadcasters and most of the streamers. We're in a very risk averse industry. Broadcasters and streamers tend to work much more with those bigger indies. Those super indies, if you want to categorize them like that.

And if you are a small to medium sized indie, And you pitch a big ambitious show, it either gets rejected out of hand, or they are led towards partnering with a bigger indie who those broadcasters and streamers feel can have the feel, have the infrastructure to be able to deliver those shows. Whereas actually, if broadcasters and streamers were to pay those small to medium sized indies the right tariffs, then they can hire the right people and create that infrastructure in order to deliver those shows in the first place.

Justin Crosby: Yeah. So you, you're actually not talking about inexperienced executives being in charge of these shows, are you? You're talking about often a lot of former commissioners and people that are really experienced throughout the industry, setting up their own small and medium sized indies and, and trying to build, small, Build, you know, uh sustainable businesses that can grow and expand and become the next lambert and uh, Uh the next sister or or whatever so it's it's you're talking about essentially the the the mid range disappearing could really harm the growth of uh, of a lot of the uh, The industry and, and, and the growth and the sustainability, long term sustainability of the industry as well.

Ruth: When you have senior industry figures like Steven, who is extremely influential and who broadcasters and streamers listen to, effectively perpetuating that myth, that small to medium sized indies can't deliver big shows, then where does that leave the innovation that historically our industry has been famous for?

Justin Crosby: There's a, there's a sense of sort of pulling the drawbridge up after. A lot of these companies have actually got to this stage of success. And therefore the smaller, smaller, medium sized Indies can, you know, just deal with the, uh, the scraps at the, uh, at the bottom of the industry. 

Ruth: I mean, he actually says in that article, there's a small club of producers from which buyers feel confident about ordering big shows.

That's effectively saying that small to medium sized indies can't deliver big shows. And, I just don't believe that. I think a small to medium sized indie, with the right staffing, can deliver any show. I really, truly believe that about the UK TV industry. We've got so much talent in this industry, effectively baked in.

When you look at the consolidation of lots of broadcasters, and the cost cutting, you know, they've released lots of really decent and experienced and seasoned producers. And executive producers who are out on the market either starting their own indies, or look, looking to become jobbing freelancers again.

So it's not like the talent isn't out there. The talent is there to make these shows. 

Justin Crosby: Well, there's a, it's a fairly bleak Outlook, uh, I think Ruth, but um, listen, thank you so much for your time. It's been great to hear your insights. There's lots of, lots of issues there that I think we can pick up on, uh, in different episodes of Telecast in the future.

But, uh, Ruth, I wish you all the very best, uh, in your ongoing productions. And, uh, thanks again for joining us. Well, that's about it for this week's show. I do hope you found it thought provoking. Telecast was produced by Spirit Studios and recorded in London. We'll be back next week with another show.

Until then, stay safe.