Rebuilding from the Brink: Danny Fenton on Reinventing Zig Zag and the Future of TV

In this powerful episode of TellyCast, host Justin Crosby sits down with Danny Fenton, CEO and founder of Zig Zag, to discuss the turbulent journey his company has faced over the past 12 months. From insolvency to reinvention, Danny opens up about the personal and professional challenges of leading an independent production company through financial crisis, the impact of industry upheavals, and the lessons he’s learned along the way. Discover how Zig Zag 2.0 is navigating the changing landscape of TV and digital content, with a focus on leaner operations, brand-funded content, and international expansion.

Listen now for an unfiltered conversation about resilience, leadership, and the future of the production business.

#TVIndustry #DigitalContent #IndieProduction #ZigzagProductions #MediaBusiness #Podcast #SocialVideo

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Transcript

Welcome to TellyCast, the podcast for everyone in the TV and digital content business. I'm Justin Crosby, and this week I'm joined by somebody who's been at the heart of the UK indie scene for over two decades. Danny Fenton, CEO, and founder of Zigzag Productions. We're gonna be talking about the challenges Danny and his team have faced over the past 12 months and how they've come out the other side.

Danny, great to have you back on the show. Welcome to TellyCaster. I, I think it's about your fourth or fifth appearance. Yeah. I can't believe the last one was five years ago. Yeah. The loss happened in that time, but it's great to be back. Yeah. Brilliant. Well, you're very welcome. And also, you know, I think it's great to be able to talk about, openly about the challenges that you've had? Yeah because I think it's, you know, symptomatic of the way that the UK TV industry's gone and the wider international industry as well. You know, let's start with that hard bit. Yeah. Zigzag went into an insolvency in April last year, I think it was.

Yeah. Zigzag Productions Limited, which was one of the companies within the group went into insolvency, but it was the main production arm of, of the company. And the way I describe it is it's a bit like having a, a slow puncture. Yeah. We knew that the air was sort of running out and we were thinking how far can we get and the nature of our businesses.

It's a pit, like being a junkie that you're sort of, you, you, you are looking for your next hit. Yeah. To, to keep going. Hit as in terms of a hit show, but a hit as in terms of money into the company. And, you know, for 25 years we very successfully sort of kept, kept our habit going. But post pandemic, there was this sort of weird period where I think going into the pandemic, everybody thought that the weight industry was heading, if it was a seesaw, that the seesaw would be linear, money would go down and streaming money would go up. Mm. But because of the pandemic and because. Neither broadcasters or streamers could spend any money. They stockpiled their money and then we came out of the pandemic.

We had this U-shape on the, on the seesaw, and everyone's like, oh, these are the glory days of television. Because it was a short, short-lived period. Of course, post pandemic. And then we had, you know, a war in Europe. Where you born? In the Middle East. Strike in America. Post effects of Brexit. All these things combined created a perfect storm and both sides of the seasaw went down at the same time.

You are by far, you know, from the only company that this has happened to. I think there's probably a lot that have had challenges, but we've not necessarily read about. But you are probably one of the highest profile. I mean, maybe, I know that we've spoken before and you talked about, you know, may perhaps being the poster boy for the UK.

Indie, you know, challenges, but, you know, I mean, it's brilliant to see you coming outta that and, and we, we'll talk a little bit about that a little bit later. But, you know, talking about a company going into insolvency and a, a production company, you know, we, we talk about that as a, as a, a mechanical business process and a legi logistical business process that that, that they have to go through.

But I don't think anybody really talks about the. The personal and the emotional side and how that affects you and your team. Yeah. Can you, can you talk about, you know, what was going through your mind when you first realized that things were, were in trouble and what, and, and, and just, you know, just highlight what, what were the key factors that led to the company being in trouble?

Yeah. I mean, I think firstly, I never wanted to be a poster boy for anything. And or a bellwether for the industry. And I. If I could have avoided everything that have, that has happened, I would've done. Yeah. And for us, I was talking before about having the, you know, the, the fix and the, the hit to keep you going.

You know, we came out the pandemic and we had. 4.7 million of work that was sort of lined up that was due to come in, which would've seen us through that period and would've kept the wolves from the door. But those projects keep getting delayed. They were co-productions that one party had the money, the other didn't.

And you know, by this time, having built up a company over 25 years. You aspire to get bigger. That's the thing that people do. And we got to a stage where we had, you know, 10 heads of department, 40 full-time staff, a hundred freelancers, you know, expensive offices, 11 edit suites. You know, we were, you know, we, we had to turn over, you know, three and a half millions to break even.

So, you know. That gives you a sense of why we needed the 4.7 to come in because you, you need to sort of, you know, stoke the fires as it as it were. And people used to say to me all the time, up to that point, you know, when, when we'd started as three people and built up over the years, they'd say to me, God, how, how do you sleep at night when you've got all these mouths to feed?

And I used to say, sort of. Fairly, you, you know, glibly, I suppose I would say. Well, I don't really think, think about that. 'cause if I did, I wouldn't sleep at night. But actually, when you get to a point where the money isn't coming in and you've got these people whose mortgages are dependent on it and, and suppliers, you know, whose, who's dependent on it.

You get to a point and you're saying about where does it, how does it affect you personally? I mean, firstly you don't sleep because it's naturally you worry. Then you, you stop taking money yourself. You stop taking a salary. So you think, you know, people always think independent producers are, are rich people, but it's, it's a two-way street.

You know, when the, and when the money isn't coming in, where does the money come from? Especially when you're a hundred percent, you know, true indie company. There's no parent company to go and ask for money for, and then you start putting your own money in. So it's, it's, you know, I'm mixing my metaphors with slow punctures and but, you know, it's like bailing, it's like bailing out of a, a rowboat that's got, you know, got a hole in it.

And and so you, you're not in denial. But, but you are, you are hopeful that you can get, get through this. But you know, as you're taking on board more water, you are realizing that, you know it, you can't bail out quick enough. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, people say, you know, well you, you were very clever. I mean, it wasn't really about being clever.

We, we got advice early from, from, from advisors about what, what, what to do in that situation. 'cause I'd never been in that situation. Previously it was the one moment that you can remember that, you know, maybe one of these commissions didn't come through or these productions come through. Was there one particular moment that you can remember that it was like, okay, that's maybe it, or, you know, this, this is, this is now gonna force me in a direction that I don't want to go in.

But it's, it's, you know, it's not something I can avoid, I think. I think I've always been a cup half full kind of person, so I always was optimistic that we would find a way out. The situation. Matt Graf, who's our MD and my business partner, you know, he's, he's a bit more sanguine and he's more of a cup half empty guy, but that's quite a good compliment.

Yeah. To me. And he basically said to me, look, you know, we're gonna struggle to make payroll, we're gonna struggle to, you know, to to meet service our debts and. Technically speaking, we were insolvent, but practically speaking, well, actually, probably the other way around. Technically speaking, we weren't insolvent, but practically speaking, we were in the sense that a couple of years prior to this, we'd got a library valued and the library valuation, which was quite a unique thing for an independent company to do, but because we've been around 25 years, we thought, look, this is an asset where you should get valued.

That asset set on a balance sheet, and it meant that we weren't insolvent on paper. On paper. We didn't have the cash, but we weren't insolvent on paper. And so, actually, as I remember it at the point, and this, as I say, this was sort of, this was a process started 18 months ago, so it was only really like a year ago when, when it came into the public domain.

But it was something that we'd, you know, we'd already been thinking about before then. Mm-hmm. And I think it's when, where Matt said to me, look, I just don't, I don't think we're gonna be able to. Keep going. We just don't have the funds. He was, his, was the kind of the voice of the the voice of reality rather than you, you were being a little bit too optimistic maybe, or Well.

I mean, you say too optimistic. I mean, as I say, I'm naturally a positive person. I don't think we'd have got through the previous 25 years without a, a sense of optimism. Yeah. But, but yeah, maybe he was, he was a reality check at that point. Yeah. That, you know, at some point in life you need someone to tell you, you know, if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, you know what they say that, you know.

It's a sign of insanity. Right. Sign of insanity when you keep making the same mistake over and over again. Yeah. And so that, that, that was a reality check. And then, you know, once you, once you bring in advisors, once you bring insolvency practitioners in, it sort of, you've, you've opened the door in your own mind Mm.

To that scenario. And then it become, it does become quite. Clinical methodical. And, and I, I actually remember the insolvency practitioner saying to me, you know why you are called a limited company. It's 'cause you have limited liabilities and you know, how many times have people you know, gone insolvent and you've been affected over the years?

And I said, yeah, actually, you know, quite, quite a few times. And, and I, and, and look, we naturally, we felt bad that there were people left out of pocket. I mean. Thankfully it, it was very few people and not for a lot of money. And the main people who were impacted were the bank and, and HMRC. But you do feel responsible for anybody losing out.

But also you, you remind yourself of what the experiences you've had over the years, the work you've brought to the community as a whole. Mm-hmm. And, it's something, you know, it is hard to justify to yourself, but when you're in the situation, you have to find a way through it. And you know, you asked me what the personal impact was on me and I think I kept it quite controlled until the point when a journalist from Deadline Hollywood mm-hmm.

Jake Canter rang up and said, oh, I've been looking on company's house and it looks like you're filing for insolvency for voluntary insolvency for zigzag productions. And at this time, I mean, there was probably one or two companies going under a week. So it was, I think journalists were becoming acutely aware that, you know, this was happening within the production community, not just the freelance community that was in crisis, but the production community.

And at that point it was. It was, it was a situation where you either meet it head on or you let it sort of wash you away. And, and, and I, and I think that if I could have, I would've sort of started zigzag 2.0 and hoped that like an eighties dj, you could fade out zigzag 1.0 Z and faded in Zigzag 2.0. But I think because we'd been around a long time, because I'm somewhat of a.

Character, straight, loud mouth that it was impossible to Yeah. Go and notice you couldn't tip tiptoe through that minefield. Yeah. And so, you know, we tried to address the story as best we could. I think Jake, who broke the story. He did a he, he did a fair story, but I think even for a journalist, it was difficult to understand the business complexities of the fact that it was one company within a group of companies that the rights were in different parts of the company that Zigzag could carry on as a brand without zigzag productions carrying on.

And, and so when that story came out, as you say about a year ago, i've gotta be honest, that was, that was the lowest point because, because up until then I'd thought of being able to pretend that things were okay. But then when it's in the public domain, and, and what I hadn't realized is that when one publication breaks it, every other publication pretty much copies that story.

They don't really verify Yeah. The facts. So it, and at that point I got hundreds and hundreds of, of, of, of messages from. From well wishes you don't tend to hear from unwell wishes, but you, but the, but the, the volume of o of messages from a lot of ex colleagues, people who'd start their careers as zigzag, who'd met their partners at Zigzag and had babies with their partners from Zigzag who'd gone on to be, to do great things.

And well, there must be hundreds of people over the years, over those 25 years because yeah, the lots of people have gone on to hold really, you know. Influential roles in the industry, and a lot of people are you know have, have come from being receptionists through to, you know senior distribution executives.

Yes. And so you've, you know, you've, you've touched a lot of people's lives, you know? Well, I, I, I take that as a sort of a positive byproduct of, of, of zigzag. I think there were a couple of messages, which were just simply like, if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't have had the career I've had. Mm-hmm. That I've gotta be honest, brought me to tears.

And even now, even now, saying that, it makes me a bit emotional. Yeah. Because because it has been my life's work. You know, that's, you know, that's, that's, that's the truth of it. You know, 25 years of running your own company and it felt a bit like a bereavement Yeah. At the time. And and it was hard.

And I, you know, I've, I've mentioned this. To people, and I'm, I'm not ashamed to say it, you know, I turned to the film and TV charity who I didn't even really know anything about previously, and they're the most amazing organization. And, you know, I got counseling through them. I got financial support through them, you know I got.

Advice, how to deal with debt through them. And, you know, I would say to anybody who's going through a situation similar to what I went through, that they are an amazing organization and they're there to support you. Any anybody in, in the film and TV industry. And so you only realize when you hit bottom.

When you hit bottom. Mm-hmm. And, and when the story came out, that's when I hit bottom. Yeah. But when you hit bottom, you know, there's only one way to go from there. And it's, and it's up. And I felt that from that day forwards, I moved an upward direction. Bearing in mind I was playing the biggest game of snakes and ladders I've I'd ever played.

And I'd, and I'd come down. The biggest, biggest snake I'd ever, I'd ever been down And I, and look. Externally, I probably appeared to be quite a confident person. Mm. And I, I, you know, I had a lot of, I lost a lot of self-belief in that, in, in, in that, in that moment because you would, you know, and we had to make, you know, seven people redundant, some of whom had been with us 15, 20 years, that, you know, they were like family.

They are like family. I'm pleased to say that we've been able to rehire a lot of people as freelancers, so nearly everybody who worked with us has come back in a freelance capacity. Yeah. But the whole model of what Zigzag was, has changed. And what Zigzag is now is, is a totally different all organization.

And I've always said that I've never been somebody actually who's embraced change. Like if I could do the same thing every day of my life. Like Groundhog Day, I would, I I would do that, but, but when change is foisted upon you, you, you have no choice to embrace it. And so now I've seen everything that's happened in the last year as been an opportunity rather than like a negative.

Yeah. Well, just, just finally touching on that piece, just going back to what you said earlier about on messages that you had. Mm-hmm. TV industry or, and, and the traditional TV industry in the, in the sense that, you know, that, that there's been unchanged the last 30, 40 years. Did you find it supportive in general because it's a cutthroat business and people, you know, don't tend to think too much about that, I don't think, but it, it really is pretty cutthroat and do you generally tend to feel people were, were being supportive? You talked about the film and TV, charity being there as an organization for you and, and obviously provided a great deal of value, but but yeah, there can be, it can be cutthroat. So I just wondered if you know what, what, yeah. It's, that's actually quite a tough, tough question because I think that people used to work for me.

With the majority of people, other producers, other production companies who I think that were thinking that there, but for the grace of God go I, and, and, and saw what happened to me and to zigzag and gone well, if it can happen to him and them, it can happen to any of us. They were incredibly supportive.

Have gotta be honest. I kind of hope there'd be more broadcasters that would've reached out and, and some did. And there was some, you know, there were some really, really like decent people. But I, I dunno, I feel like almost because of the broadcast industry being in crisis, there's almost a bit of survivor guilt from the, from the broadcasters in terms of they know.

That their lack of commissioning is having this impact on the production community and, and, and, and I think it's hard for them. To sort of acknowledge that publicly to, to, to, to producers? Well, yeah. I mean, I have to say that I've, I've had a couple of chats with producers this week, and it's not just about, you know, the lack of commission, but also it's, it's, you know, I've heard instances that really, really bad, bad acting by, by broadcasters who've, you know, canceled projects.

You know, and then arguing about, you know, what the compensation for that is. And I mean, okay. You know, it's, it's, it's business. It's tax write offs. It's all sorts of different things that, that when you're dealing with multinational corporations, you know, and it is a business. It's, I realized that.

But the other thing I noticed was also that I made a conscious decision six months ago. To go to as many events as possible to show that we were sort of still present. Yeah, because I thought it was important. Yeah. That was a weird experience because every event I went to, people would look at me like I was an apparition and, and, and people would say, I'm so sorry to hear of your passing.

Or You had, you had a great run. Or, and it was, it was a bit like being at your own funeral. And, and hearing the eulogies. And it gave me an opportunity to say to people, well, I'm not dead. I'm, I'm not dead. I mean, even this week I was, in event I've been reborn, essentially. I've been reborn. Well, I actually, I made the joke, you know, just think of me like Bobby Ewing in Dallas.

You know I went in the shower and came back, came back a couple of seasons later. But it's so. It was really important to get the messaging out there to people. Yeah. 'cause I think with the narrative of the industry that, you know, you've got certain companies that have done very well during this period, like I would call like the champions League companies.

There's, you know, four, four or five companies that have just grown and grown. Yeah. But the majority of other companies have struggled. And the ones in the relegation zone have, have, have, have, have gone under. Yeah. So the narrative has really always been, if you go down, you, you're never coming back.

Mm-hmm. And so what I really wanted to do is say. I'm not gone, I'm, I'm coming back a bit like Leeds. Yeah. And and I, and I want, I wanted to make that clear to people. And the other thing was that people would say, and quite often actually broadcasters would say, why don't you, why don't you just retire?

I mean, you know, you must have made enough money to retire. And I'd say, well. Firstly, I'd like to think I'm too young to retire. I've still got some something in me. Secondly, I I, I haven't made the sort of money that a lot of broadcast, a lot of broadcasters think we're all Stephen Lambert, but we're not.

Mm-hmm. And and thirdly, and probably the most important thing for me is, and I think you, you, you, you understand why I'm saying this. I wanted to write the last chapter of the book of Zigzag, and I didn't want the last chapter to say, oh, they had a good 25 years, and then they went under. Mm-hmm. So I wanted to, I do believe that our best show's still ahead of us.

Now. I might be deluded in saying that, but it's what inspires me every day to keep going. That I can still write the last chapter of the story and it can end, you know, end on a happy ending. Yeah. Well, let's, let's, let's start talking about that and zigzag 2.0. But before we do just one, one final thing about learnings.

I think because the state of the industry right now, there will doubtless be. Tens if not maybe hundreds of indies out there experiencing, you know, similar issues to, to, to that you did. What advice would you give them? It sounded like you talked, you talked about getting insolvency experience and, and, and advisors in early.

Is that, is that what it is? Is, is, is it about dealing with things as early as you possibly can? Well, definitely dealing with things as early as you can, being honest with yourself about your, your situation. If you've got assets, get your assets valued, work, work out what you know, what you've actually got that's of any value, whether it's ip, whether it's physical assets, you know, edit suites or, or, or whatever else.

Mm-hmm. And, and rationalize to the extent, extent that, you know, we did over the prior, you know, 18 month period when people's contracts came to them, we started to let. People go, if their contracts were up, we, we shrunk down the development team. I speak to a lot of producers now. They either don't have a development team or they have, you know, somebody on a part-time basis, but just look at your overheads and, you know, if, if you can't meet your overheads, you're in, you're in trouble.

Yeah. So I, I, I think yes, get, getting internal advice, getting external advice, and having an honest conversation with yourself about. Where you're at and actually look, it applies to medium-sized companies like ourselves. It applies to. So-called Super Indies where you're seeing consolidation of less labels being shrunk down.

It applies to smaller startup companies. In many ways, the smaller startup companies are in the best position. 'cause a lot of those companies, I mean, there's a company called Phoenix in Hampshire who I'm friends with. And you know, they have virtual offices and they've never had an office and. And they don't have any full-time staff.

You know, and it's, that's, that's the way to start a business, you know, start as a lean, mean fighting machine. Yeah. Which is, which is, which is where we've ended up by default. Yeah. Well, that's what I was gonna talk about. So, so let's, let's, let's talk about the new zig zag. How are you designing the company for today's and tomorrow's TV industry or content industry?

You know, who knows how long TV is gonna be around as a, as a as a concept, as, as, as we have known it for the last 30, 40 years. But, yeah. How are you equipping yourself in terms of that design? Obviously keeping overheads down, right? Yeah. But what else, what, you know, how else are you approaching the industry?

How, how are you approaching the differently now than you did five years ago? Well, firstly, I mean, keeping overheads down. Matt and I are the only full-time members of staff now, right? So, so everyone else is freelance and comes out of a. Budget of a program. Yeah. It's sort of been universally recognized that the middle of the market has gone that sort of, you know, a hundred to 200,000, eight o'clock features type show's gone.

So where we focused our, our efforts, it's been on the, sort of the two ends of the market. So we, we've. We are doing a lot more digital, short, mid form content, which is something we'd never really done before. 'cause we could never make it work on our overheads, but now we can. Yeah. So we've done this eight minute mid formm series for Hearst True Crime series called Now listen to this.

We can do another one of those for them in the history space. We, we've started to do a lot more brand funded content, so I'd say. 50% of our slate now is, is either fully funded by brands or 50% funded by brands. And even the streamers now bar Netflix. And I wouldn't be surprised if Netflix end up doing it as well.

If you come up with a brand who will bring half the money, they'll bring the other half. So everybody's looking now for ways of, you know, cost saving. Yeah. The brands, you know, spot advertising doesn't work for them in the way that it used to. So. We've, I wanna say stumbled into, but it, obviously, it was, it was a strategy, but we started to make digital ads for brands as well.

Right, okay. So that we found there's a niche That's, that's really interesting. I think because I. There are so many appropriate skills that you can transfer into, you know, advertising and shooting ads and, and also the, the type of ads now that cut through. 'cause all of that money is, is turning to digital.

Yeah. Into terms of digital advertising. And the type of content is not your 32nd spot. It's different, you know, it can be lots of different. Types of branded. And there, there are a lot of brands that I would say are legacy brands or family owned businesses that can't afford the seven figure budgets to go through a, you know Yeah.

A big advertising agency. Yeah. But have got a hundred, 200 grand where they want. Content, digital content, either to put on their own social platforms or to put out virally. And, you know, since the turn of the year we've done, we've done four of those ads. Yeah. So it's, it is a whole new avenue for us.

And, and one I'm keen to explore more because I think TV companies can do that, provide that service in a way that ad agencies. Probably can't come down to that. Yeah. Price level and deliver that quality. And then, you know, we just recently did for TNT Sport and Discovery, a brand funded series that was fully funded by an energy brand around sustainability in sport.

We playing for our future, we're talking more about doing more brand funded stuff like that. And then at the other end of the spectrum. You know, we're doing premium factual and premium reality. We've got a Nelson Mandela feature doc that is been directed by Antoine Fouquet, who is a Hollywood director who did directed training days with Denzel Washington and, and the equalizer.

And that is fully privately funded through Lawton Entertainment. And then we'll be sold, we'll go to the festivals and we'll be sold to the highest bidder. From the streamers. That's interesting. So do you, do you see more private equity coming into content? I, I do see more private equity and private investment coming into content as an investment in ip.

I think the other thing that has been a godsend to us has been our library. So, you know, one of the things we had to do when we made Zig Ag Productions insolvent is I personally. Acquired the library at market rate independently valued. And that has been a godsend in the sense that in the age of fast channels and YouTube channels and the like, and also now the AI tech for training world, which is a whole new area, owning your library, owning ip, owning your rushes, even rushes from 25 years ago.

As a, as a new value that didn't exist. Interest, yeah. That's really interesting. So, I mean, the, the old, I mean the old business adage about, you know, creating products that, that make money while, while you sleep. Yeah. I mean that's a VOD essentially. Yeah. So, so that's obviously working well for you. But yeah, the, the training data is really interesting and are, are you finding that that lucrative.

And, and also without talking about, you know, in detail about numbers, but how, how do they, how do you value what the, you know, what, what is the value when it comes to AI training data? Is it per hour or is it per, per per series, or how does that work? So it's a mini gold rush, but what I know about the gold rush is the people who made most of the money were the people selling the pickaxes and the buckets and the lodgings.

So every, everybody's chasing this. So-called Gold Rush. There are quite a few companies out there offering this service. In fact, somebody came up to me and said was it real screen? And they said I'm the number one AI tech for training provider. And I said, oh, that's interesting because I've met five other companies who claim they're the number one as well.

We've done our due diligence and we've gone with a company that offered us some upfront minimum guarantee. Yeah. Which I felt was proof that. They were serious. Yeah. Now there, there's a real range. So people are saying you can get $6 a minute, potentially. The, the numbers could be massive. So how, how do you choose what content to include in that library?

I. Or do you just say stick it all in? I mean, is it as many hours as possible if they're basing it on a per hour? Yeah. Look, they're really interested. They're really interested in rush. Is e even more than finished programming really? But once you've put it in the cloud and once they've analyzed it, they don't want.

The same take of something 10 times. So, you know, there's no point them detect training on, on a person walking up to camera 10 times saying the same thing. Yeah. Some companies are being cautious about image rights and you know, if there's a celebrity in there, although it's not for broadcast purposes.

They are is tech for training and you dunno what the AI usage is gonna be in the future. Mm-hmm. So there, there is a sort of a boiling down process where you provide them with everything and they'll go through it and they'll tell you how much of it is actually of use to them. And different tech companies want different types of content, different genres of content, someone sport, someone, technology, someone engineering, et cetera.

So we're, we're quite early in the process from what I know of the market. Nobody has done massive deals yet, but everyone's sort of primed for it. It might be like the gold rush. It might be, you know, flash in the pan. Yeah. Well, I was gonna suggest suggest is that, you know, once you've sold your library once, is that kind of it, or can you do multiple.

It's non, it's non-exclusive. It's non-exclusive. You could do the same deal and there, apparently there are 70 AI tech companies who will want this content. Right. Okay. So yeah, I mean, let's talk again Yeah. About it in the future and we'll see whether it, whether it came to fruition, but the, the, the point I was trying to make is that.

The library has given us value. So although we are CEG 2.0, which is in effect like a startup, we've, we, we're a, we're a caravan, but you know, we're towing behind us. This library that has, it's the benefit of the legacy that has a value. Yeah. And, and then the other, the other area as you know, I'm not a cunning linguist, but I've always seen the international value of the industry.

And I think at a time like now where. The two key markets for us over the last 25 years have always been our home market, UK and the US where we had a presence for 15, 20 years. You know, if the UK market's bad, the US market's even worse. And so when your two key markets are in flux, where do you go? You know, and we obviously, we, we spend a lot of time in China and we, we tried.

The Middle East and for us right now, the two key places are South Africa, which I think is a massively under exploited opportunity for our industry. 'cause the costs of production are low. It's English speaking. They've got really good skillset and we are planning to shoot a new show there in July.

And Korea and, and in Korea just feels right now because of music, film gaming, sport music, you know, the whole, the whole gamut. Korea is just as a hot market. And so we've got a couple of projects we're co-developing in Korea and one that be filmed in September in the uk, but with a Korean partner.

Okay. Okay. And again, that's benefiting from your 25 years in the business because you were always one of the first producers, first and foremost producers that were making, that was making the effort to go to the, what we're seeing probably 10 years ago is really farflung left field markets. Yeah. And going on, you know, like packed, packed you know, tours and, and well, 'cause I always thought the value of UK producers was.

Higher internationally than it was in the UK because the competition was so stiff in this country. Yeah. You know, and having been on the Board of Pact for eight years, you know, I, I, I saw there were 500 plus companies in this small island and actually we're fighting over the crumbs. And even more so now the crumbs that fall off the table.

Whereas as British producers to go to South Africa or Korea, or China they value, they value British expertise. Yeah. So finally Danny, let's talk about where you think the industry's going right now. And, you know, maybe a couple of predictions. You've obviously already intimated that brand funding is gonna be really key.

Any other sort of predictions where, where do you see the, the business going in, you know, 12 months and five years from now? I. There's gonna be more opportunity to direct to consumer. Another aspect of the library is, I mean, we launched a channel with Little Doc called Toughest, where they took all of our mail skewed factual from the nineties and noughties, the Danny Dyer stuff, the Vinny Jones stuff, that donor McIntyre stuff.

And they've launched a channel with a, you know, with million subscribers. And, and that again, it brings in money, a little bit of money, but it brings in money while, while we're asleep. So I think. Producers who've got catalog can be thinking about launching channels, you know I think that, as I said, the brand funded brands are the new broadcasters, and whereas in the past, broadcasters were a bit more sniffy about brands.

Now if you turn up with the brand, you sort of go to the front of the queue and, and, and also for the streamers as well. I think that. Look content, content's not gonna die. It's just gonna pop up in lots of different places. And I've always said if there's a screen on a plane or in a taxi or in aural, it, they all need content.

And you know, just last week somebody rang me up. Who I'd met in 2017. This is the value of planting the seed and meeting lots of people. And they said, oh I've launched a bingo platform and we need some content to play in between the Bingo games. Do you have any library that we could acquire? And I just thought, this is, this is just mad.

Like there's, there's just so many different places that. That need content. So as long as your, your antenna are up and you don't lock yourself into, I only make programs for this broadcaster, then I think there is still the potential to make a living. Yeah, yeah. Expand your horizon to little bit. Yeah.

Okay. Danny, brilliant. Thank you so much for for that chat. Now we've got a story of the week here over the week and getting the bin Yeah. To talk about before we finish. So what's your story of the week? I think the industry story of the week has to be Alex Mahan leaving Channel four. You know, that's eight years I think she's been there.

I think it's been a really challenging time at Channel four. I think she's admitted. It's been a really challenging time making an analogy of my football team. It's bit like being manager autonomy. It's, it's the impossible job. I'd be interested to know, and this is not me being judgemental. I've been to know whole history.

Judges, her and her era. I think, you know, she's probably had the toughest chief executive period of anybody at Channel four. You know, and maybe anybody in the TV industry. 'cause you think about all the other broadcasters, the change in this, in the challenges Yes. That she's had with fighting off privatization twice.

Ad market cratering digital transformation. Yeah. And then all the, all the other stuff that comes with being a broadcaster with, you know, me too. And a lot of the, you know, the you know, challenges they've had there. I think she's remained incredibly positive throughout. I think she's definitely a force of energy.

And I remember I think it was like her first week at Channel four, and I cheekily emailed her and said it'd be great. To have a meeting with you and you don't really expect people who have just started a job as chief exec to respond. And she said well, let me know when your next's coming in.

She responded like within five minutes. And I then cheekily said, well, funny enough, I'm on my way to SH Hall now, which I was for a meeting. And she said, well, pop upstairs after your meeting. And I, and I met her like within two hours of sending, sending the email. Wow. And I was really impressed by that. I mean, I wish her all the well in her, in her new job.

All the best in her new job. I, I, I wouldn't want to take that job on from her. I think whoever takes that job on, you know, it will be like. Taking over from Eng Post Colu next season. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Bit of a challenge. Big, a tough act to follow as well. Very tough. Yeah. How about your hero of the week?

Danny? As you notice, I keep making football analogies, so it's, it's, it's, it's hard for me not to think football and because I was coming to see you I was thinking, thinking somebody would be a hero that would connect us. And so. Obviously the the Israeli international man, or Solomon has played a crucial role in getting Leeds promoted.

Unfortunately he didn't play enough for Tottenham before he went to Leeds, but I like to think that was a gift from from Totten to Leeds. And on that note, I did actually bring you a gift. Oh. Which is which is a man or Solomon. Israel look at this Israel shirt. Oh, brilliant. So we can do a signing photo.

Oh, that's fantastic. Signing photo afterwards. Daddy, look at that. Fantastic. Brilliant. He can wear that to your next lead game. Brilliant. It is. Even almost leads color, so Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, he's been brilliant and yeah. An amazing addition and I hope we get to keep him. That's the other thing.

I think you probably will. Yeah. And who or what are you telling to get in the bin? Dunny. Well, there were two things I was thinking of, and one one, which is a sort of, I suppose it's, it is a football thing, but it's also a TV thing, which is VR. But I mean, I think VR is VR is the thing that keeps being annoying and actually for you having followed leads.

In the championship, you don't have v ar. And if when you come back up next year, you'll get to realize how annoying it can be. You can't celebrate any goals and yeah, you know, everything's, it's a delayed reaction. Disputed, delayed reaction, and lines are drawn and. I was actually quite shocked to discover until the new automated EAR system that in Stockley Park they were actually drawing the LI lines by hand.

So it was actually, depending on how straight a line the official could, could draw. The industry in the bin I think would be. The thought that Banerjee might buy ITV. And as you know, I probably have no love for Banerjee, having had a brief dalliance with them in the, in the past. I mean, beyond whether they would pass the fit and proper persons test.

I think that I. The idea that our biggest commercial broadcaster would be owned by a foreign owned production company is quite, quite a scary thought. Are they interested in the broadcaster, though? They're interested in the broadcast and the studios. Okay. Yeah, apparently allegedly. But the value of the broadcaster is zero apparently being written down to zero, and it's all about.

Bje Wrights and catalog and well, the value of distribution, the value of vendor. Mo Schein was supposed to be less than zero, but you know, it's about taking on debt and it's about yeah. You know, how you work your way through that, which is something we've talked about earlier. Yeah. Yeah. Danny, brilliant.

Thank you for coming on. Really, thanks for having me. Love having you on the show. Your honesty is really refreshing and I think it will resonate with a lot of people. Thank you. And I wish you all the very best for Zigzag 2.0. Cheers. And and all the best for next season. Thank you. While that's about it for another week's show, I hope you enjoyed it.

TellyCast was produced by Spirit Studios and recorded in London. We'll be back next week for another show. Until then, stay safe.