Max Fosh: Building a Creator Business (Without Chasing TV Deals)

He’s the YouTube creator who trained a horse to bet on racing and tricked Heathrow passengers with a fake “Welcome to Luton” sign — now Max Fosh joins TellyCast to reveal how he’s built a global creator business rooted in originality, lean production, and long-form storytelling.

In this week’s episode, Max shares the inside story of his rise from Facebook vlogger to international touring comedian and digital video pioneer. He explains how he approaches YouTube strategy, why branded stunts work (and when they don’t), and why so many traditional media companies are getting it wrong when they try to work with creators. Max also discusses creator burnout, sustainable growth, and the business decisions that keep his channel thriving.

Plus, as host of the first-ever TellyCast Digital Video Awards, Max gives us a sneak peek at what to expect on the night — and of course, he shares his Story of the Week, Hero of the Week, and what’s going in the bin.

👀 A must-listen for anyone interested in the business of social video, creator economy strategy, and the future of digital entertainment.

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Transcript

Hi, I am Justin Crosby and welcome to another TellyCast On this week's show, I'm joined by one of the UK's most original digital creators, Max Fosh, known for his ingenious YouTube videos that blur the line between comedy stunts. Social experiment and satire. Max has built a loyal fan base of over 6 million subscribers across platforms by pushing the boundaries of what's possible online.

From running for London Mayor to launching his own fake airline with a flare for high concept storytelling. Max brings a fresh perspective on content creation, brand building, and how to thrive in the fast evolving world of social video. For more videos featuring the movies and shakers of the content industry, just search for TellyCast TV on YouTube and hit subscribe.

Okay, let's get into it. Max, welcome it TellyCast. Thank you very much for having me. It's great to have you here. I love what you've been doing in the recent years. And I'd love to, I want to hear the story. Yeah. God, the, the whole story from the very beginning, the Max Bo story. Yeah. So when did you start?

Making videos, was it YouTube originally? And, and what led you to do that? 

No, initially it was Facebook. It was, it was the heady days of 2017 where, you know YouTube was obviously massive, but I, I kind of was, was uploading my, my videos for some reason onto Facebook. I mean, I had spent three years at university wanting to be a radio presenter and I'd worked in hospital, radio, student radio, and done all that kind of thing.

And I thought I should probably have a video arm to my to my broadcasting. Yeah. So I started a show at university called Street Smart where I was at Newcastle University. Yeah. And you know, famous for nights out and lots of drinking. The big market. Exactly. Big market. Yeah. So. I grabbed the camera, grabbed the microphone, and a willing friend to hold a said camera and just walked out into big market outside the clubs and just asked for anybody to, that's brave.

Come have a chat with me. I mean, it was done, it was done on weekday nights. It was not locals. It was more, you know, posh public school boys who were kind of living their best northern lives. So that's kind of how it started. And as I said, I was uploading all the videos onto, onto Facebook, mainly because I was kind of looking.

I mean, I, I, I couldn't quantify in these words back then, but it was more of relationship engagement to where there was all the tagging, all the sharing was, was being done by people that I had existing relationships with or mutual friends with. Yeah. 'cause it would be like, you know, adding you, Justin for you, or in one of the videos.

I can't believe you said that about X or Y. Yeah. And so it was a very kind of collegiate inter, inter university intermural kind of thing. And so I was doing this for about a year on, on Facebook, just. You know, I just would post a video once a week onto Facebook and slowly would start to get a little bit of traction and I mean, like, you know, two, 300 views at a time.

And so I did that for a year. I graduated university. I didn't really know what I was going to do and I was working in a pub in London and I kind of. Had a small network of people who I knew were also making videos. And a friend of mine at the time called Zach he pitched me an idea about whether he wanted, whether I thought it was a good idea to break into London Fashion Week.

And I was like, yeah, that sounds, that sounds fun. So we went to, we went to Primark and we dressed me up in stupid clothing. We had like Margo gloves and we snipped the fingers off. We got plastic packaging tape from Amazon parcels. And put it around my neck, like in a, like an Elizabethan rough. And we then went to weather, the shows were happening at London Fashion Week, and we had two friends that had cameras with the flash and we got them to, to trigger the flash as I kind of turned up and start shouting my name, which caused all the paparazzi to like.

Swivel their head, think that their eye was somebody important and they all rushed over and started taking pictures of me. Which then got it onto Getty Images, which we then leveraged to get invited to shows and after parties. And we kind of made a whole video about this experiment and this kind of stunt, and it was all put onto Zach's channel, but kind of overnight it was, it hit two or 3 million views and I think now it's on about 30 million long form views on YouTube.

And so that meant that I went from about. Genuinely about 800 subscribers to a hundred thousand in about two weeks. Wow. So as I say, I was, I was uploading all the stuff onto Facebook at this point, and I was putting stuff onto YouTube as a bit of an afterthought. And so, you know, I, we uploaded that, it just exploded.

And suddenly had this audience who, who could watch all of the old videos that I had. Been putting up in the background for the last 18 months that we've been getting 20 views. And so suddenly the audience started watching that, and then I've kind of grown it from, from there. So that was February, 2019.

And so six years down the line, I've just slowly been chipping away and trying to grow the audience. And the stuff that I've made over that time has slightly changed and shifted. But ultimately it's all been within that core of, of kind of fun and silliness and, and, and jery to 

call it. Yeah. And, and so that experience of, of that one video that really sort of set the course for, for where you are now and Yeah, it's remarkable that that sort of kickstarted the, you know, the, your approach, your whole approach to, to making videos.

Yeah. It was kind of, it was the, the quote unquote big break. It was the, it was the first, if it was an actor, the first role in a, in, in, in something substantial, but. I, you know, had spent three or four years working on like my broadcasting, my presenting my entertainment style in, in radio and hospital radio.

And then had also made videos for about 18 months. So I knew I had to edit. I knew, you know, I kind of knew what I was doing. And I. I always say that I wouldn't, it wouldn't have kicked on in that way if I hadn't had that background and I hadn't had that kind of library of work for people to go and look at and watch to further, deeper the connection and be like, oh, I think I, I think I'd like watching this guy.

Let's see what else he's got. And so I think often creators are very, very concerned about what that one video is going to be that's gonna cause 'em to blow up. But they need the back catalog of things for that to be sustained. 

So, so over these years, since that since that particular video that went viral, I mean, what surprised you most then in terms of making your clips, making you know, your, your longer form content?

What surprised you most about that journey from, from then to now? What I'm 

making really, I think often. Kind of people think, okay, this is, this is the route that I'm gonna go down and, and, and this is what I'm gonna make. But it's, it's never linear. It's a constant zigzag. You're constantly just kind of pushing the boundaries in a certain direction.

If it doesn't work, you go back to the status quo. And, and over time, like it's, it's changed remarkably. You know, I first started out doing Vox pop stuff, like interview stuff. I thought it was gonna be man on the street, Billy on the street esque kind of things. And now. You know, I've just wrapped on a video where I cooked a meal using lightning.

So, I mean, it's, it's a very, it's a very unpredictable path that, that YouTube has, has taken me on. But also it's interesting now to see YouTube as a world which. It's very much like the early years of television where the propensity to what you want to create is completely down to you. There's very few barriers to, to entry or exit.

There's no real bureaucracy as to, well you what's the brand values of this thing? It's like, I wanna make this and let's just do it. And that's kind of one of the reasons I love YouTube. You can make things for YouTube's sake, which I feel like has been lost massively. In the mainstream often, if I'm ever having kind of conversations with people from, you know linear channels or programs, that the question I always get, and the dreaded question is, but why are you saying this?

What's the reason? What's the message behind? And I'm a huge advocate being like, just. Do it 'cause it's fun. Yeah. Like audiences un really don't care that much about what deeper points you are making. I think people in linear and tradition have got very, very serious about we need to be making a serious point to every opportunity and changing the world.

No, you're an entertainment. Make something that people can titter at and talk to their friends down at the pub about and then kind of move on. 

Yeah. I mean, I'd love. Your, one of your recent videos, but the horse you, you got horse to help. You bet. 

Yeah. I 

trained 

a, a race horse to bet on horse racing.

'cause I thought maybe they might have an advantage spoiler that they don't at all. But yeah, like that was just a case. I thought it'd be quite funny to see a race horse in a bet Fred. And that's, I managed to make it happen. So yeah, there was no deeper meaning behind that video whatsoever. 

I, I can't believe you, you, you actually got to take.

The race horse into the vetted shop rather. Yeah, we had to, 

Yeah, there was a little bit of a permissions behind the scenes stuff, but ultimately it was a lot of kind of walking up to different shots, be like, can we come in until eventually when we're like, yeah, I think so. I, I dunno why you can't as long as the horse isn't kind of crap on the carpet, I think we'll be fine.

So so talk us that then. I mean, what I mean is the repro, there must be a process, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 'cause talk us through that sort of ideation process of coming up with an idea and, and say, okay, how are we gonna make this happen? 

Yeah. So, so the. With YouTube, it's slightly different to, to kind of TikTok and, and other forms of social media and social media platforms because YouTube is very active viewing.

So the audience needs to decide and choose that they want to watch something. Whereas, you know, other algorithmic based content platforms, you know, Instagram and TikTok, it's more fed to you and so you've kind of got to hook them in within the first two or three seconds. But YouTube, it's all about your title and thumbnail.

So. I kind of look at your titling of thumbnail as, as kind of like your shop window or like the, the storefront to a restaurant. So you've got to make it look as inviting as possible. And it, it almost doesn't matter about the quality of the food really at that point, 'cause they haven't tasted it. You know, if your friend says, oh, there's a little shop down there, it's got the best food I've ever had.

But the outside of it looks run down dilapidated and dirty. You're probably gonna take a few attempts be told, no, it's really, really good before you step inside. But if you walk up to a shop front and it looks amazing and glistening and clean, you're like, yeah, of course. I'll give this a go. So with the ideation, it's, it's so much about the title and the, and the thumb nob that is the most important thing for the video.

Are you thinking about search at that point, or are you thinking about. Purely what's gonna grab people purely about what's gonna grab 

people. Search. Search is kind of dead really. As, as a, as a con is a, as a medium because the recommendation feature is so strong and that's how, you know consumers use the platform through recommended searches.

So, you know, you get, you go into the homepage and you kind of peruse what you want to see. So the, I'm not thinking about buzzwords or anything like that for hashtags for the search bar. Not at all. It's more like, okay, what sentence? Will will be someone will call someone to stop scrolling. Yeah. And that often comes from just juxtaposition, right?

So taking one thing that everybody knows and doing the complete opposite thing with it but still make it make sense. So we, I filmed a video where I cooked a, a ready meal in a volcano. Yeah. Right. So cooking a meal is a very con, a common concept. We all understand microwave oven. Could you cook it in something very hot lava.

So there's, there's an inherent, it's extremes, right? It's extremes. Yeah. It's, it's superlative scale. Small thing. It's a big thing. I've wanted to do a video for a long time where I water ski behind a cruise ship, right? That's just the, the most, the most visual example of, of superlative scale. So if you can get a title that, that either poses a question or makes somebody laugh.

And then combine it with a thumbnail that is interesting. Then you are, you are kind of really onto a winner there. Yeah. And then once you've got them through the front door, you need to make sure that that first 30 seconds is interesting and grabby. So in YouTube we always kind of say. The title is What?

The Thumbnail is How, and then the first 30 seconds is why. So what are you doing? Thumbnail should give you a bit of an information about how you're gonna do it. And in the first 30 seconds you've gotta present a rationale as to why you want, why, why you're going to do it. Yeah. And again, it doesn't need to be some deeper meaning.

It can just be 'cause I think this is funny and silly and stupid. But those are the three kind of areas that we look at when we're making a video. 

And obviously YouTube is your, your main platform if you like. Mm-hmm. But you've got one and a half million TikTok followers. Yeah. And I think half million on Insta.

Yeah. When you're coming up with that, this idea, is it YouTube first for you? It is always YouTube 

first. Yeah. It's always YouTube first, and then we will then look to clip up the, the, the story within 60 seconds and post it onto Instagram and, and, and TikTok. But I mean, long form YouTube is, is where.

The profitability is, that's really how as creators, you can really keep building and go bigger and bigger and bigger is if you get long form views. Yeah, I mean, I've got one and a half million followers on TikTok and I've been posting on there, well, 1.2 actually. I've been posting on there for about four or five years, and I think I've made in total from just ad revenue about 15,000 pounds.

Right. So. As, as for millions and millions of views for millions and millions and millions of views. So you short form now is very much discovery. 

Yeah. 

And long form is, is kind of where you are looking to convert them to. So often the end of the short form video, I, it will be a teaser to, to, to kind of a suggest that they go over to the long form.

But it's very, very hard to do that. A lot of creators I see is like, oh, I'm gonna focus on my short form to get them onto long form. I don't think that's a good idea. Yeah. I think if you want to get into long form, then you should be making long form videos. Yeah. But using, you might as well use that footage as a billboard.

So it's more about awareness. I mean, it's a, it is a trailer or it's more of an awareness process. Yeah. For YouTube, because you obviously, you're asking people to. You know, get outta TikTok and then go into YouTube. And so it's like, that doesn't really happen. Doesn't it work? Right.

And even on YouTube, YouTube have done a very good job.

YouTube shorts has been incredibly successful for YouTube themselves, and they've, they've put a feature in where you can link a long form video to a short, and we do it every single time. And there's very, there's very little crossover just because the viewing habits of the individuals are just so different.

Yeah. If you're watching a short. You are just gonna keep going through and, and keep watching shorts. And so moving over to longform is, is, is pretty rare. 

So, so talking about formats and, and the longform formats that you create mm-hmm. They're incredibly well thought out. Mm-hmm. And. Almost tv, like in some, in, in its format.

Mm. With the voiceovers and the, and the way it's presented. I mean, what, what do you make of, you know, this crossover now? 'cause we're a really interesting point now where the likes of Netflix and a lot of major streaming platforms and broadcasters are looking to talent like you. Mm. And, and the success that you've had and looking to bring that into their.

Ecosystem. Mm-hmm. Which has worked to varying different degrees of, of success. Where do you stand on that? Because I mean, clearly you don't need tv, but do you harbor ambitions to do more in tv? It's funny, 

I, I've, I've just turned 30 and kind of, I grew up watching TV and so there's. Still probably probably from an egotistical perspective, like a desire to be on the telly in some perspective.

But I'm probably the minority amongst my peers online. Like, you know, I have creator mates of mine who have absolutely no ambitions to be on television whatsoever because, you know there's a, there's a great creator in the states called Mark Rober, who was kind of, he was working with, with Jimmy Kimmel and doing a show for discovery, and he was kind of saying.

Hold on. So you want me to do a show on TV where I will have less creative control, fewer people will see it and I'll make less money? Oh boy. Where do I sign up? So there is, there is still that. Element in some areas of linear. I, you know, I still think, you know, traditional has a, has a really strong space in, in, you know, in reality creators are slowly starting to be able to create shows from a reality perspective.

But still traditional still has like the grapple hole on that. Sports, for example, you can't really get creators to, to create sport related content, but entertainment for example, I think, you know. TV and linear is really gonna be struggling mainly because there's, there's a lot of, I think what's slightly happened over time is there's been a lot of fat that has been added to productions and, and as a result it's in, you need to, it, it's, it's insanely unpro.

I profitable, I've been on shoots where I can look around and see the amount of people who are working. And I think, I just don't understand how the, how the maths is math thing. Yeah. Which is very, very like worrying to see just for people who work in this industry. Yeah. And. It's nice to see that creators are now taking like weird, like creators are building production companies within their own right.

That are making their own stuff. And so I think that the, the thing that that TV is slightly doing wrong at the moment is I often get asked, oh, can you do your thing online but on our tele channel, please? And I'm like, there is no incentive for me to do that whatsoever because you'll tell me. Oh, I can't do that because of X, Y, Z, because of red tape, because of bureaucracy.

And so I think harboring kind of creates more as, as talent is something where they can really thrive and that's where the needle might be moving a little bit. But yeah, I think I would love to do a tell something on tell, just so I can tick the box and, and show, Hey, grand, look, did you see me on that thing?

Yeah. But I'm still very passionate that. I have the opportunity to make what I'm, what I want to make and when I want to do it. Yeah. And that is just why I think, you know, online is, is, is really, really important. 

Tell us about your production setup then, if you, if you've got your own production company and, and and, and what does that look like on a typical shoot?

Yeah, I mean, I call it a production company. I, I, I guess we are a production company 'cause we. Produce YouTube videos, but I've got a full-time. I've got a full, full-time staff you know, editors and producers and and a writer, and then a couple more writers that I hire on a freelance basis for, for ideation.

The biggest issue for me is ideation and ideas. And so that's the biggest bottleneck. So every two or three weeks I have, you know, professional, like comic writers or theater directors, people from various different worlds of the entertainment industry, bring them together. And it's kind of an old school fashion, like writer's room where we'll kind of hone in on a, on a sector, let's say, America, and we'll come up with as many ideas as we can about America and just bounce it all off.

And that's just, you know, a day, a day, day of ideas. So I do have a, I've got a team and they're all, they're all full time and we, we work out of an office and it's very regimented. I think there's a, there might be a preconception of YouTubers or content creators, as you know, for a long, long time. It was the workout of your bedroom narrative.

Yeah. And a lot of creators do do that, and they're insanely profitable and, and, and very successful. But I think there are also a lot of creators. That have their own teams and productions and, you know, there are companies in the UK that are YouTube channels with 30, 40, 50 people. And so there are lots of individual smaller production companies that are all popping up that they're making their own stuff on online.

It's really interesting that, you know, your. Your overall approach and you know how lean it actually can be for the quality that you can produce. I mean, are your, your team are, are they all digital native, anybody for XTV or, 

So, you know, the writers are definitely XT V and still current tv, you know, the writers I get in you know, write on, you know, big, the, the last lag mock the week or when it was still on.

So they'd come from that world. Yeah. But I've brought them into the TV world and actually the, I really enjoy the. The shock on, not the shock, but the, the reaction on their faces when they kind of come into the, into the YouTube space because they're like, oh, this is great. This is fun. They're like, and literally, any idea's a good idea?

Let's just keep going. Let's keep pulling at that string. But the, in terms of the team that kind of edits and produces, they will all kind of like grads really that I hired like straight out and, and have fostered and learned from there. But. I think there's a lot of amazingly talented people in TV who could do incredible work in the digital space as well.

So it's not just a case of, oh, you've worked at tv. That's a, that's a a dark stain against your name, but instead yeah, you've got incredible knowledge and expertise to, to share. Come on in. 

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's really interesting. We speak and we see the number of, I mean, I dunno what the latest figures are, but you know, there's about two thirds, if not more freelancers in the TV industry who have been out of work for months and months and they're just, they're, I think they're finding it very difficult to transition into the digital space.

Yeah. But, but there are a lot of transferable skills. Right? 

Yeah. And I think to that end, there's slightly been. I think the, the main, the big stream is an element to answer for here. So if you take someone like Amazon Video, who I think have said that they're not a profitable entity, but they're, they're looking to funnel people into Amazon as a company.

They will have huge budgets and therefore will be able to entice people in with huge budgets, huge day rates, and so therefore. Kind of, a lot of freelancers will then, like, that will be the, the day rate that they start setting, which then will just be too expensive for, for other areas. And so these big streamers have caused, I think, some freelancers to kind of price themselves out of, of other jobs.

Which I'm not sure what the solution is, but I think that the blame should lie a lot at the streamers who are making TV that they know is not profitable, but they don't really mind. And they don't really care. And that has huge like. Knock down effects to the rest of the industry. Yeah. Because, you know, then smaller productions can't afford to bring on a huge number of people.

And also the freelancers then suffer because they can't, they, they, they don't get as much work. 

Yeah. It's a really interesting point because you've got technology companies, you've got shopping companies, you've got you know, you've even got sportswear companies now that are creating content, but, you know not for content's sake to drive different types of businesses and drive profitability.

Yeah. And it's, and, and content is just probably quite a small budget in their overall sort of business plan. Absolutely.

So yeah, and, and it's now we're seeing with the streamers actually, but, but what I think the streamers are doing fantastically well and I is, is very exciting for me from a, a creative perspective, is.

Often, traditionally stories were very much confined to 30 minute slots or 60 minute slots, and now something can be told in genuinely any length of time that you think it needs or deserves, which allows basically less, you know, often there might be a video, an idea that was. Really a 15 minute idea, but was kind of stretched to 30 minutes just for the sake of the advertisers.

Now it can just be a 15 minute idea and therefore the, the, that, that can, that probably does improve the quality of a lot of the stuff because, you know, production companies are not trying to squeeze out longer. Because they know they need to. 

Yeah. Well, let's talk about business models then. I mean, your business model is fairly unique, I think, but I mean, essentially you've just come off a a, a worldwide comedy tour.

Yeah. Standup tour. Yeah. Yeah. So obviously there's, that's, that's a major part of of your business and then there's a YouTube business. What about other areas that you're working in? Branded content, for example? Yeah, 

so branded content that will, on the YouTube channel, the kind of two main revenue streams are.

AdSense. So ads that Google play before a video that we get a 50% cut off or 55% cut off, I, I can't remember. And then I will then go out and organize my own brand deals that I'll talk about a brand, I'll talk about TellyCast in my video for 60 seconds at a time, and that'll be a, a pure contract between myself and the, and, and the brand.

And that's just a read that. Typically, and that's just yes, just typical read that you get in podcasts. Okay. Often, you know, brands are looking for more integrated ways. Yeah. Sometimes it can be entire video that's dedicated around a certain topic. Yep. I did a video for Amazon and Fallouts, for example, the new TV show, fallout.

And so they wanted a video that was around the the, the apocalypse. And so I came up with a concept and so. We charge more for that. But yeah, that's the YouTube side. Then the, the standup side is, you know, I, I knew I had an audience there. I didn't really want to sell merch with little t-shirts with my name on it, but I knew I could, you know start do writing shows.

So about kind of six or seven years ago, I started standing on stage and trying to tell jokes and slowly over time understood what I was good at and bad at on stage. And so the tour is another area and then. The third one is just kind of me as a, as a talent for hire going out, and whether that's ad campaigns for certain companies or presenting gigs.

Yeah. But the main, the main brunt of it, it all comes from the channel. So if that channel isn't there, you know, people aren't watching, therefore the audience isn't there to come to the standup. And then there's, I'm not valuable to the companies to present something. I need to make sure that, that, that core.

You know, arm of the, of the company is just creating YouTube content. 'cause often you see with creators, as soon as they get very successful, they start veering into other areas of entertainment, which didn't make them successful in the first place. So they, they oddly stop doing the thing that made them successful.

And I think this is probably just the case in. In, in general as well. You know, how many actors have we seen that suddenly want to be singers, or singers that suddenly want to be actors? I think that's just a, a trait of human humanity being like, oh, I'm done with that thing. Let's try something else.

Yeah. But it's yeah, about trying to make sure that, that I'm still uploading to YouTube because that is where the audience is. Yeah. And that's where, you know, I, I need to make sure that most of my time is being spent. 

Yeah. And the standup obviously YouTube is a global platform. Mm. Has that really led to your, you know, international success when it comes to standup?

I mean, is that, is that, for example, you've been to Australia and New Zealand recently? Yeah. Presumably you would've never been. Touring there without YouTube. 

Absolutely. And that's what allows, I've just done, you know, 75 dates in 14 different countries. And that's purely because of YouTube. And it's my, my, I mean, a demographic is 35% US based, so my audience is 35% us.

And then, you know, 10% here, 10% there, 10% there. And that is only as a result of, of YouTube. Yeah. And being able to do shows in Sydney and, you know, having a thousand people there is just mind blowing to me. Thousands of miles away from home. Or because they have a YouTube account and watch, watch me on YouTube.

So that's what has allowed the tour to, to be where it is. It's just because of the, the universality of YouTube and, and they're doing things increasingly to try and support that, you know, they're bringing in AI dubbing so that, you know, you can automatically dub your videos into different languages and suddenly that opens up.

Loads of different markets. Yeah, I think only about 20, 25% of YouTube is in English, which just kind of blows my mind when I, when I hear that stat. So what's 

that coming in? 'cause they've been talking about that for ages. 

They have been talking that for ages, and I think the issue at the moment is it's, they, they're, they're struggling to try and make it sound as natural as possible.

It's still very much, you can tell that it's, it's ai, but. I don't imagine it's gonna be very long until that's that, that changes. 

We've seen recently, you know, these huge creator studios being built, particularly in the States, but also we've obviously got side men here and other, other big YouTube collectors.

But then we've got like Darman studios in the States and do perfect and one or two others. I mean from a business perspective, are you your own CEO or do you have. Do you employ a CEO in your company? I'm 

very much, I'm the CEO and I've, I've very much kept it very small. I know, I know around 2022 when kind of the word creator economy was really kind of the, the buzzword and everyone was talking about it.

I know that some creators, you know, brand deal sizes were massive and everybody was like, I'm gonna be the next Mr. Beast and be a, a, a tech CEO and have huge teams. Yeah. Suddenly the outgoings went through the roof and over, over the next subsequent years, a lot of them slightly stashed away. You know, they realized they had to downsize.

And so I think that burned quite a lot of, a lot of creators. I think it just depends what your, what your goal is when you're going at, into, into ation. Some people are very, very analytical and know, okay, if I do this, then this, then this. I will be able to make this or do this. I really have only ever done it because I love making things and being like having the opportunity and the propensity to do really silly stuff.

Yeah. So I've consciously not want to become a manager. So I've kept the team very lean, very small. And you know, I've spoken to US mates of mine. They're like, what are you doing? Like there's so much missed opportunity here because you're not optimizing this and optimizing that. And. I don't think that that's a particularly sensible, long, long term strategy, purely for your love of what you do, but also from a financial perspective.

Yeah. Some creators have a real growth at all costs and it works really well for them. But I kind of looked at what kind of personality I had and realized that that probably wasn't me. I'm not a particularly good businessman. I'm just probably quite good at my, my strengths line telling stories and kind of entertaining people.

The reason why I ask that is I'm just thinking about all these different parts of your business. Mm-hmm. Do you start a year thinking, okay, this year I wanna make X from this, I wanna make X from that, I wanna make X from the other. Or is it just a bit more, not, not hand to mouth. Mm-hmm. But is it, is it a bit more?

I'm just gonna see where my creativity takes me, and then if I fancy this, then actually, yeah, I'll do another tour. Or from a business perspective, business and creativity don't necessarily go together. No. So I'm just wondering how, how that works when you are running. This ship? 

Yeah. I'm definitely, every year I have an a GM with the team and that's, I mean, that's more of a, what's working for you guys?

What's not working for you? What do you want to make as, as employees of this company and get that creative led side from them. I also sit down with probably my agent and, and look at, you know, the amount of revenue that was brought into the company, what could be improved. And, but then from there I might set an arbitrary number of like, okay, this is my goal in terms of revenue for, for this year, but.

If I don't hit it, then that's fine. And some things might be more profitable than you expect. And often there are deals that come in that genuinely could, you could never have expected. Yeah. You were on a list somewhere that suddenly said, oh, actually this person would be great. And you, you know, there's there, there might be a big payday around the corner, so I know the costs.

And I know how much I would like to live with my lifestyle. And then anything over the top there is, is, is, you know a bonus. And I was kind of talking to a another creator about this, and we were talking about the difference between, you know, increasing your revenue by percentages, right? And he said, okay, what would you do with x more money?

And I was like, oh, I'd probably just invest it. He was like, okay, so that's, you should be looking. It was like, would your life change? Not hugely so. If the point of doing all of this is just to increase the amount of investment your, your investment portfolio, then what's really, what's really the point? So I am mainly looking at that, okay, right.

Is the business profitable? Can I pay my employees? Can I increase production size a little bit here? Great, I can, I can do all of that then, then I'm happy, really. 

And give us a sense of the cadence of the company then, in terms of how often you are publishing on YouTube. Because one of the. Things that Sam Barcroft said to me a few years ago, which I've, I've always tried, not always, but tried to do is be there, show up the same time every week.

So your audience is expecting, you know, your content. How do you approach that? You know, is it, is it weekly? Because your, your shows are a lot more complex and it's. So much more planning and, and and production values around it. I mean, how does that work in terms of cadence? So 

for individuals like that, so you know, the sideman post every Sunday, sideman Sunday, and, and that is become incredibly valuable for their brand.

But that's taken eight, nine years of, of uploading weekly to do that. So it's not a case of suddenly if you upload for six months every week on the same day, then suddenly everyone's gonna know. Oh great. So I try and upload every two weeks. So I try to do around 25 videos a year, all different video ideas, you know, different concepts.

But often, you know, for, for unforeseen production circumstances, things change. And so I don't huge, I've never really put myself into a position where the audience, where I promised them I. Okay, there's gonna be a video every two weeks or every week. Because if you fail that once yeah, then it's broken.

So I think a lot of creators make promises that they know they probably can't keep. Just 'cause they think it sounds good and sounds splashy, but as soon as you ruin that trust once, then the audience is like, okay, fine. Also, I think the discoverability of, of and viewing habits of people is less. It's not as important.

I think back then back when YouTube was very cyclical and it's like you, you posted something, YouTube would serve that 'cause you're subscribed, which would cause more subscriptions. YouTube is now a little bit, a little bit more of a, of a leap from where you are going into genres rather than individual creators.

So if you watch, they watch an episode of TellyCast, they then might jump into another podcast or, you know, other area within industry. So I am. I don't think that uploading is on a, on a, on a, you know, regular schedule is, is hard and fast, and you've gotta die by that rule. But you, it's good to, to try and try.

I make videos every two week, you know, sometimes we make a video with like the, the, the Cooking with Lightning video. We were in Spain in a lab that generates bolts of electricity and then there was a national power cut. That's just something that I can't control. And so as a result, we had to delay that video, which was really, really frustrating.

And so there are things like that that happen. Yeah. But I ultimately try to upload every two weeks. 

The, well, one of the reasons why I I'm asking you about that is this whole concept of create a burnout. Mm. Because, and it sounds like your ideation process works working with a writer's room, essentially.

It sounds like a really smart approach because, you know, once you start. On that hamster wheel of needing to be there every week. I mean, what you're saying is be regular, but don't, don't kill yourself to be there every single, you know, every week at the same time. 

Yeah, I mean, it kinda depends what creator you are.

Like I'm very much an ideas based creator. People really are interested in what I. Silliness, I'm getting up to what big stunt I'm doing. Yeah. Whereas the sidemen are you know, relationship based creators. Yeah. They wanna hang out with 'em, they wanna be their mate, they wanna see what they're up to, regardless of what they're doing.

Yeah. And so that means that if you are a relationship based creator, you are able to to upload probably more frequently because there's less. Storytelling structure that needs to go into it. It's more about, okay, let's just hang out with this person. So I am, I'm very much on the idea side, so it does require a lot of structure.

Yeah. So you, you mentioned stunts. Let's talk about a couple of your best known stunts. So the, the airport. Welcome to, yes, welcome to Luten. Welcome to Luten. Tell us about that one and how that came about. 

I was a stolen idea. Justin? No. We no, I, I, I'd seen a, a video, a news article from like 2004 of a guy.

In I think Milwaukee and he lived close to the airport, and so on his roof, he just wrote, welcome to Cleveland. And like there was a big news article and like, you know, a segment on the news where the reporter went down and talked to him and I watched it and I thought, that's silly. That was done 20 years ago and obviously made a splash in 2004.

Surely it'll, it'll be the same again. Could we have our own version? So I then looked around land around Heathrow and there was no land available. 'cause obviously it's Central, central London. I looked at Gatwick thought, oh, okay, there's farmland around Gatwick. So I, I knocked on doors of all the farmers around the the runway.

Until finally I met a family who said, yeah, sure you can rent this strip of land. 

A family with a sense of humor around. Yeah, I think they 

had, they were, they were part of a a construction company and they were just not using that bit of land. And so I think when I walked along and said, I'll pay you 4,000 pounds for six weeks, they were like.

Sure. We weren't doing anything with it there anyway, so I rented the land off them. I then got loads of top hall in. I wrote Welcome to Luton. Stuck it down a lot of hammering tent pegs into the ground and then just waited, like, I didn't know whether it was going to work, whether anyone could see it from the planes.

You could see the planes coming into land. But you didn't really know like what the V view was like out of that windows, they would come into land and so I actually, no. I actually took a flight from London, Heathrow to London Gatwick via Amsterdam which was an interesting day. And I, as I came into land, I, I could see it.

I was like, great. I know it's there. Yeah. And, and then luckily about two days later, someone tweeted about it. Having seen it and then that just exploded. Like it really, really, really went viral. 

So okay, so, so it actually went viral organically. Yeah. As opposed to you posting a video about it. It wasn't, it didn't become famous through your channel.

No, it was purely organic. That's really, and, and there are, there, 

there are videos like that, that I make that, that often requires that, and those are really, they're really nerve wracking videos because you can do the thing and then. No one could care. Yeah. And then you don't really have the ending to a video.

A couple of years ago, I, I filmed a video where I found that there's a place in the UK called Bell End. And so I erected a statue of Vladimir Putin with a penis for heads to, to, to call him the bell end of the year. And I've left eggs out for the, to. So to throw it at him. And like we just left it there and like we didn't know whether it would get you, like people found it funny or whether it'd be picked up by the news.

It then did. And while it was then we had an ending to the story. But often those videos are quite nerve wracking 'cause you don't really know what's gonna happen. 

That. I mean, that's a brilliant p these are PR stunts essentially. Essentially. Yeah. Do you get brands approaching you to say, can you do, can you do a stunt for us?

Like, I dunno, paddy power, it seems like a perfect Yeah. Often, but 

then there's, then it's hugely at log ahead. I mean, if they've got a lot of budget, then sure, absolutely. Yeah. But it's then then it's real at odds with the, the ethos and the vibe of the channel, right? Yeah. Yeah. I wanna make sure the audience is, is feeling like it's not just a billboard at every opportunity.

And, and rather just, you know, a bit that of fun that I'm having. I always, we always talk in the office that the ethos of the channel we want to convey is that I would be doing these silly things anyway. I've just got a camera that's following me. So that's the kind of underlying vibe that we want throughout all of the videos.

Yeah. So you said you just turned 30. How about younger content creators that are coming through now and you know, if you think, place yourself back to where you were when you were doing the hospital radio and starting to make first videos? Probably different now because the young people coming through are much more digital native in the sense of, you know a lot of the platforms that were around back then.

Any advice you would give to them in terms of how they would build a career as a, as a successful, a, a sustainable and successful career as a creator? So I think 

just start creating, just press published, like, make things, or like constantly be making things, but for a few reasons. Firstly, I. You start to understand what you are good at, like what areas are, are you, are you strong at?

But also it allows you to try ideas and understand what you actually inherently want to do, like with. YouTube, I was making videos for two years until I made kind of a single penny. So, and I understood, okay, and that led for me to have a passion and understand exactly what I'm doing. You become a real one man band.

And what's amazing is that there is absolutely no, there's no, you know, gatekeeper at all in the, if you look at just the sports world, all of the presenters that you are seeing on, on Sky and the young guys who are all coming through, guys and girls. All of them make content about football, and that's how they get discovered.

So I don't, I genuinely don't think there's been a better time to be somebody who wants to get into the creative industries, because it's totally within your power to start making things about things that you care about and that you are passionate about. And I can guarantee you the Internet's a big place that there are creators for everything you could.

I mean, there's just been, there's a huge Dungeons and Dragons. A YouTube channel that have just signed a huge, huge deal. I dunno much about it, but, you know, with a network and, you know, suddenly they're, they're, you know, got huge plans for kind of world domination. They're a Dungeons and Dragon dungeon Dragons YouTube channel because they know there's all these other that wants to watch that.

Yeah. So whatever you are interested in, just, just, just make things as, as early as possible as well. I was very lucky that I started making things at university because the stakes were so low. Like I could just, I, I didn't, I didn't have to. Worry about, you know the, my peers and be like, oh, what are you up to?

I'm working this job and then nine to five and then going back and making videos. I could just do it. 'cause I was at university and I had, you know, people around me who were like, yeah, sure, I'll give it a go or I'll help you out. And so, yeah, make things as early as you can and make a lot of it and learn every time.

Just understand. Okay. That was good. That was bad. And try and improve what you're doing just 1% every time. 

Yeah. Even the niches on YouTube can be multimillion viewer niches, right? 

Hugely. Absolutely. Like, you know, there are people who make millions of dollars a year making slime. Yeah. So there really is, there really is a niche for, for everything.

So tell us about any creators that you've seen recently, anybody that you'd recommend to a TellyCast audience to check out. Yeah. Really interesting. 

So there's, in the states. There are a couple of people called Preston Goes Is, is fantastic, and Andrew Video. They're both within kind of my niche of silly storytelling, doing something for the sake of it.

Preston is more from an engineering perspective and he recently did a, a series where he created a trolley that goes on disused railway track. In the States and just went on this big adventure and a three part series and like, it was just the closest thing I've seen to it was, it was tele grade, like entertainment and and quality.

So yeah, Preston goes and Andrew video in the states. And then from a, from a short porn perspective, recently she's been in the news news a lot in the last couple of weeks. Zoe Bread, who is a TikTok creator who has had a, a real teter tech with Manchester Council. And it is, it's just the absolute genesis of storytelling.

It's like problem. She got a parking fine in Manchester. She thought she was done wrong. And so you know, protagonist as an antagonist, she's gonna get her, she's gonna get her way. And as a result it's been incredibly successful. You know, talking about on BBC and, you know, she's really getting her flowers at the moment.

But I think that it doesn't matter whether it's short form, it's still shifting culture. It's still something that people are talking about. So yeah, three creators that I love, Zoe Bread, Preston goes, Andrew video. 

Alright. And how about you? What's the future hold for you? So we are, we are in we're in May now, nearly halfway through the year.

What's the rest of oh God, 2025. Hold for Max fos. 

So, I mean, for the last year I've just been so focused on the tour. Did you know a lot of shows it took. Months to prepare for the tour and, and, and write the material and, and try it out. And so as a result, I really moved away from the YouTube side of things and that suffered.

And so coming back now, it's about right. Let's really get on back on the grind. Let's really try and head down and just start really just get the reps in with, with YouTube and make as many videos as I can whilst also looking at slightly longer thing maybe how I can serialize some content. I recently did a, a series where.

I tried to track down the baby that was born next to me on this, on the 3rd of April, 1995. And I eventually found her, a woman called Lily Hunter, who was born on the 3rd of April 95 in St. Thomas' Hospital. And we had this weird reunion on our 30th birthday. And so it's about coming up with, new format ideas that I can kind of generate into, you know, two or three or four, five episodes. Yeah. Because then it means I only need to come up with one idea that I can, I can flesh out a little bit more with a bit more time. 

Fantastic. Well, I look forward to seeing those and we're gonna be seeing you as host of the first TellyCast Digital Video awards.

Absolutely. Yeah. I'm very excited. It's gonna be, it's gonna be great to. To see all of the, all of the all, I mean, there's a lot of kind of the, the big hitters, the, the kind of channel fours of this world. Yeah. The 

channel fours. We've got ITV studios, we've got Paramount, we've got we've got a lot of the big studios that after party, we've got Spirit studios, all of the big dogs in the digital video space.

So yeah, looking forward to it. Fantastic. Well, I'll try and be in my best behavior. Yeah. Well, what can they expect then? What are they gonna expect? Give us, give us a line of what, what the audience can expect on the night. 

I feel like, well, I'm just, I'm just very proud and honored to be, have been invited to to present it.

I can only assume that Munya and Amelia de Denberg said no on this occasion. But no, it's, it's gonna be a lot of fun. And yeah, I've got, I've got a bit of material, a bit of, a bit of ribbing of, you know, channel fours in the ITV studios of this world. So, yeah, but nothing, nothing too bad. 

And now it's time for Story of the Week where my guests highlight the industry news story that's caught their eye in the past seven days.

Max. 

What's the story of the week? So for me. I've been watching a lot of the stuff of what you, kind of, what YouTube has been saying. YouTube themselves Neil Moham, the CEO of YouTube, and YouTube is already the biggest streamed app on TVs. It's bigger than Netflix, bigger than Amazon in terms of watch time.

So, but there, I think YouTube have a real issue of. Of being kind of taken seriously. Mm-hmm. And so they're doing a real push to get some creators to be nominated for Emmys over in the States. And so there's a few creators of, you know, Sean Evans on Hot Ones, good Mythical Morning, Michelle Koray Challenge accepted.

They're kind of collating these three creators and I think a few more and saying, go on. Let's, let's, we'll, we'll put the full force of YouTube behind you in terms of budget and clout, and let's get you nominated for Emmy's. Let's get you to win Emmy's. And so it's been interesting to see YouTube themselves.

Kind of pushing for an element of people being taken serious or YouTube acceptance, really Acceptance. Yeah. Which is kind of what I was talking about earlier with the try, wanting to be on telly to tell, to tell ground this. I think YouTubers struggled with an element of acceptance and have done for a long time.

'cause I think mainstream haven't quite taken them too seriously. So to hear that from YouTube themselves saying that we wanna push for Emmys. Is is really fascinating. Right? 

Okay. But then it's not a patch. Emmy isn't a patch on a, a digital video. No, but we all, 

we, we are all show off. See, want, we want, we want the shiny thing on the wall, don't we?

We all do. Regardless what people say. And how about your hero of the week? Hero of the Week is a guy that I've met once before. He's called the Hull boy. And he is a, he's a young lad, maybe 18, 17, 18, and he's running the length. Of the uk. Obviously he's been inspired by various people. You know, recently we've seen a real rise of people in the kind of endurance fields Mm.

Documenting their challenges and the hardest, geez, last year was incredibly successful and cast a lot of light on this. And so I think whole boy's been inspired by this. And he's kind of like 50 days in, or th no, he's, he's 30, 35 days. He's gotta do it in 50. Running the length of the uk, really young lad doing it to raise money for kind of.

For mental health. And so it's, it's very, it's very cool to see, you know, the real young generation seeing things online and being inspired to do their own versions of that. So he's probably my hero of the week. 

Yeah. Great. Well well, good luck to him. Is he halfway through? Is he easy? He's nearly done, I think.

I think he's very, very, very nearly done. He's trying to break the record. To be the youngest person to do it, and I think there's a time frame that he needs to do it in. All right. But he's, he's getting there. 

Okay. Well that's good enough motivation, I think. Yeah. And who or what you telling to get in the bin Max, 

To get in the bin?

Probably Manchester County Council. I mentioned earlier, Zoe, Brad and her, her campaign against Manchester Council. And, you know, they have refused to change the parking sign on on a, on a, on a road in, in Manchester. And I think they have finally decided after a massive media campaign to refund people's parking tickets and also to.

Put up signs telling people where to, to park in the right right place. Which sounds incredibly petty, saying it outta context, but please watch Zoe Bread series to, to get some context. But yeah, probably get in the bin's Manchester County 

Council. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's like they're like post office scandal, you know?

Yeah. It's the parking scandal. But the silly version of it. Yeah. Fantastic. Max, thank you so much for coming on TellyCast. Thanks Justin. Can't wait to see you at the Digital video awards. Yeah, absolutely. 5th of June at the Londoner Hotel. Tickets are still on sale, so you can still get them. Please come on down.

Alright. Okay. Thanks a lot Max. Well, that's about it for another week's show. Thanks a lot for listening. TellyCast is produced by Spirit Studios and recorded in London. For more videos featuring the movers and shakers of the content industry, just search for TellyCast TV on YouTube and hit subscribe. We'll be back next week with another show.

Until then, stay safe.