Endangered Species? Ofcom’s Cristina Nicolotti Squires on Saving Public Service Media

This week on TellyCast, Justin Crosby sits down with Ofcom’s Director of Broadcasting and Media, Cristina Nicolotti Squires, for a deep dive into the regulator’s urgent six-point action plan to save public service media in the digital-first era. 

With younger audiences flocking to YouTube, Netflix and TikTok, and PSBs losing share, is the UK’s broadcast model reaching a breaking point? Christina unpacks the tough questions: securing YouTube prominence, the future of Freeview, public funding for news and kids content, and why media literacy and strategic collaboration are vital to survival. Essential listening for anyone working in public service, digital-first or social video production.

Includes key insights on:

• Why PSBs are losing visibility and what can be done
• The digital terrestrial TV dilemma and future of Freeview
• AI, misinformation and media literacy in the online content era
• Whether it’s already too late to save UK public service broadcasting

Listen now and stay ahead of the changing media landscape.

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Transcript

Welcome to TellyCast, the podcast for everyone at the sharp end of the content business. I'm Justin Crosby, and in this episode we are diving straight into the future of public service media with audiences flocking to YouTube, Netflix, TikTok, and beyond the UK's traditional broadcasters. The BBCI. TV, channel four, channel five STV, and S four C are facing what the UK's media regulator Ofcom itself now calls an endangered species moment.

Joining me today is of com's broadcaster media group director Christina Nicolotti Squires. Fresh from the release of their six point action plan designed to safeguard public service media for the digital first age. We'll be asking the tough questions. How did we get here? Is it too late? And can PSBs really survive without new rules to make them visible in the online world?

If you care about the future of public service media, whether you're a producer. A broadcaster, creator, or just a viewer? This is one episode you don't wanna miss. Alright, Christina, let's get into it. How you doing? Hi, I'm good, thank you. Thanks for having me along. Not at all. Welcome to telecast. So you've just published a report this week. Tell us about this new Ofcom report and its key recommendations. 

We've called it transmission critical. 'cause we think actually it's a really critical time for the public service broadcasting industry. Um, audiences have changed. Um, they've gone to all sorts of different platforms.

The cost of production's gone up. Um, and we just think that unless something is done, um, and done soon, um, this great broadcasting, um, culture and landscape that we have in this country, making programs that bring people together, bring Britain together, um, and that we all love and our assert shows us that people love this kind of content is, you know, under threat.

Well, I mean, a lot of people in the UK hold public first service broadcasters very close to their heart, uh, particularly the B, B, C, but, uh, all the other broadcasters as well in, in, in certain ways, shapes and forms. Now, let's, there's, there's a number of different recommendations that you've, uh, that you've published this week.

First of which is, uh, that we are gonna cover now when we talk about is securing prominence on YouTube, essentially. Young people in particular are not watching broadcast television, uh, on their TVs then, and we'll talk about a few stats a little bit later in the show, but I think everybody realizes that nobody's watching telly anymore, certainly in the younger demographic.

And, uh, we've seen the rise of YouTube particularly in the last 18 months or so, two years or so. So, so you, you are encouraging broad public service broadcasters to put more content on YouTube. Is that, is that the, the basic, uh, recommendation it's of the things they're 

calling for? Yeah. I mean, you know, there's no point.

First of all, it's really important to say that regulation doesn't make audiences watch programs. You've gotta make good programs. We've also got to make good programs and then put them where people are watching them, and as. Linear viewing is declining then, and there's, you know, a crowded landscape now with the Netflix's, Amazons, et cetera, this world, um, YouTube is a place where a lot of content is being consumed.

And interestingly, it's not just young people. Um, I think there's something like a 48% increase in over 50 fives consuming YouTube now. Yeah. Um, and so we are sort of encouraging the broadcasters to take the great content that they make that kind of knits us all together, that reflects British culture and put it on places where eyeballs are.

And YouTube is one of those. 

Yeah. And, uh, why has there been resistance in your view? 

I think look. All broadcasters have got their own, um, mythology and their own sort of strategies they want to follow. I think in the past there's been an idea that they don't wanna give their content away. And I, and I understand that.

And the idea was you'd put clips and hope that would drive back to your platforms. Yeah, 

they'd be, they've used it as a marketing tool. Yeah. And 

I think that's worked to a certain extent. But when you do put content, you either create just the YouTube audience or whether it's whole shows, you can get an extra audience.

So just to pick them out, channel four has done a lot of work in this area. They announced, you know, their fast forward digital strategy, I think it was last year, wasn't it? Yeah. And their Channel 4.0 is giving them good audience numbers. They're not taking them away from the linear ones, they're adding to them.

So it's just a really good way of making sure that Public Service Broadcasting is getting to. All kinds of people, not just those who are watching on linear. 

Yeah. And crucially for Channel four, obviously they're selling their own ad space within YouTube and that's obviously no regimen they have with them.

So that is something that allows them to sell across both linear and digital advertising. And that's, you know, that's one of the keys that, that, that's helping them make that stack up from a. Commercial perspective, but when we talk about broadcasters putting content onto YouTube, what's to say that that content won't just get buried if it's BBC content or whoever, or whatever content it is.

There's not really any reason why YouTube should give it any undue prominence or prominence over and above any other creator content. 

Well, yeah, it's interesting. I mean, that, that is one point of view. I might, I might, uh, sort of c change it slightly. Um, I think it's important to recognize that YouTube is having good relations with, with this broadcast we've mentioned, you talked about the channel four deal.

They're having good, they are having good talks and relationships. And actually YouTube does put a fair amount of news content as a newsreel and there's big breaking news events. Um, and I think it's kind of, it helps both sides. I mean, YouTube is. Is, it is becoming a bit of a television platform, frankly.

Yeah. And if you put good stuff on your platform, people will come to it. Um, and so I think it's, it's kind of in YouTube's interest as well, to have great content the audiences can discover as well as for the broadcasters to be adding more eyeballs. Yeah. 

So what you've also, uh, asked. The government for some clarity on the future of digital terrestrial tv.

What, what do, what are you, in your view, what should that decision be? Because obviously we've seen massively falling numbers there. Obviously there is a. There's a public service remit to certain communities that maybe don't have access to broadband or, or, or enough access to broadband. But equally, is that reason still to keep a very expensive service still running?

I mean, what? What's your viewpoint? Well, I mean, you know. 

In our work on this report, obviously we've spoken to loads of different stakeholders and the PSBs themselves have said to us, you know, we are, we, we are having to run two systems. We're having to run a DTT traditional system and an IP internet delivered system.

Yeah. And we're in effect running two different businesses and the money we are spending on those means money we can't spend on content. As you know, the cost of production's gone up. So, you know, every, literally every penny counts in terms of what the government decides. I mean, we, at Ofcom, we've given them a range of options and.

You know, they vary from, um, sticking to the current system to going full IP only or to having some kind of, you know. Hybrid, uh, system. I think what all the broadcasters are telling us, they want some clarity. They're not actually saying it should be one or the other. They just want some clarity for the future, for their, for their business plans.

Mm. And look, we're becoming a digital society, aren't we? You know, I dunno about you, but I can't book an an HS appointment without using an app. That's right. So yeah, the idea that TV should come down an old fashioned aerial is, is, is perhaps, um, a bit backward looking. But equally there are also people who thought.

Various numbers of reasons don't have broadband or don't have wifi, and therefore would struggle. So it is really important that we make sure that whatever decision is made, not only are, um, the companies given enough time to plan for it, but also audiences are as well. And, um. You know, universality is a big part of the BBC's Remy making programs that accessible to everybody.

I would say that while these kind of, you've got these dual running systems, there are some people are not getting the same benefits as they would of IPTV and the way you can choose stuff, you can freeze it, rewind it, et cetera. So I think it's really important that it's addressed at at at and, and to be fair, the government have said they'll make an announcement at some point next year.

We're just saying. It's, we are hearing the broadcasters telling us, please just let us know what you want to do and when. 

So you are not making a recommendation to government? 

No. We've given them a range of options. At the end of the day, it is up to government to decide how to do this. Yeah. Um, and so, and we've, you know, we, we delivered a future of TV report to 'em, I think it was last year, uh, which they welcomed and they're working through.

Um, and they will make the decisions themselves. 

And how many people are we talking about in, in terms of, uh, that are, that don't have that broadband access uk I, I think it's 

something like, I think I read somewhere it's something like 10% of people, but there's all sorts of, there's all sorts of different barriers to broadband.

There's the affordability barrier. I mean, it's u it's a utility like other things, but it's not a cheap utility necessarily. Um, there's places where for whatever reason, um, there's. You know, there, there isn't, you know, there isn't fiber available in your town, particularly in rural and remote areas, and lots of parts of the uk, you know, are very kind of, you know, topographically challenged if you like.

Yeah. So it is, it's a, you know, there are some people and this, you know, and there are also people that just, that, you know, are not particularly tech savvy and, you know, don't want to, don't wanna have to use broadband for things. 

But I, I guess at some point there's gonna have to be. A, a decision made.

'cause it's gonna be cost versus benefit, isn't it? And you know, we see every commercial business out there, whether it's po you know, bank branches or post offices, you know, that are pulling in their networks and pulling, uh, their costs down. This is, you know, surely following the same, at the same path.

Ultimately that Yeah. 

But equally, you know, there are a lots of people who live in, you know, elderly people in particular live in small villages who really miss having a post office or a bank. So, you know, and would really miss. If all TV was turned over tomorrow onto ip, we'd really, you know, be able to miss, um, their favorite programs.

It's not TV as well. Remember, a lot of radio is delivered, um, using the same air masks. So it's a complex thing. We're just calling for the government to give some clarity on when and what they're gonna decide. And do they have to make any decision within a certain timeframe? Um, I just think we've, you know, we've made the point that it needs to be sooner rather than later.

There's been various dates banded around. I think with all these things. Something as big as this, if you think about the analog to digital switchover, that took 10 years in the planning. So I think you're looking at a minimum of 10 years, 

right? But there needs to be, there needs to be a plan. The gun has to be fired.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. There needs to be some sort of structure, some framework put together so everybody knows what's happening. Okay. Um, so, um, you are also recommending, uh, more public funding for under commercial, less commercial genres of content like news and kids content? 

Yeah. I mean, we're not, actually, we're not.

If you may sound pedantic, we're not rec, we're not saying there has to be, we are just saying we are hearing from the various broadcasters and stakeholders that they are calling for more funding. At the end of the day, how money is spent is down to the government, not to us. Mm. 

There's 

a number of different options that have been discussed in the public domain.

You know, I think there's been a call for a, um, a levy on the streamers, which I think government's already ruled out. But we do point out there are, you know, there's been a very, um. Popular take up of what's called high-end tv, um, uh, tax credit where subsidies are given to high-end dramas. We would say that if that's gonna be extended, it should really be to the things that don't actually are that really struggle commercially.

And news has always been a thing that, um, you know, was cross subsidized, if you like, um, and is really, really important. Um, and that and children's, and you know, there's a lot of other content made by people who are not. Public service broadcasters that kind of falls into that bucket, if you like. Mm-hmm.

Sky, for example, does, you know, some really great children's programming, but they don't have to, I think, and last week I think they're just, I think they've let their, their commission team Yeah. Last week they now say, yeah, they, they announced last week that they're not gonna commission, they're just gonna buy from third parties.

Mm-hmm. So, you know, the PSBs are, you know, are license, part of their license conditions is to provide a range of content. And if we didn't have that in place, we might wake up one day and find it's gone and it'd be too late. 

Hmm. And. And how would the, uh, how would this be funded though if we're talking about more funding to go into news and, uh, and kids content?

Well, again, there's a lot of range of options and what we're saying in this report, and all of this report is about starting conversations rather than like, here's the actual X, y, and Z of, of how you do it. Um, but, you know, things have been discussed about do you have a pot of contestable funding that companies can bid for to cover, say local news?

Do you give a tax credit to people that invest in local news? Do you, um, as part of BBC Charter Review, do you say, actually, let's, let me, let's let the BBC news content be available to local newspapers? There's all sorts of different options. 

Yeah. Okay. Another one of your recommendations in this report is.

Telling broadcasters to forge ambitious strategic partnerships. Mm. 

Yeah. 

Tell us a little bit about what that might look like. 

Well, you know, I think traditionally the broadcasters see themselves as rivals. Um, you know, and everyone used to get the barb overnights and, you know, had you beaten Channel four or when I was at Channel five, we always trying to beat channel four.

Yeah. 

Um. 

But you know, the world has changed, hasn't it? And I think that they're competitors now, not each other, but they're the big global platforms and um, I think it's really important and we think ACOM think it's important that they collaborate a lot more than they have been doing in the past. Yeah, actually we did see a first sign of that recently.

Um, I think they all joined together to provide, uh. Simpler way for medium small businesses to, um, buy advertising across all of their things. Um, and it's that kind of collaboration that we are encouraging. I can imagine, you know, they all have, um, players and live streaming services. Could they, for example, have share backend technology?

Could they, um, one person even suggested, you know, could they even share sort of compliance, um, regimes or whatever? So I think there's lots of different things they can do. To work together and sort of sho shore each other up. 'cause it's all in, you know, as I said, the public service broadcasting sector is such a vital part of the creative economy in this country.

And without it, we wouldn't be having the Netflixes and the Amazons coming here to shoot big budget films. Big budget productions. So I think, you know, we are, we are calling for closer collaboration. Now some have said. Should there be consolidation? Well, that's the next question. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, again, these are a range of companies in, in sort of different forms.

The BBC obviously is funded by the licensed payer. The, um, channel four is publicly owned. It, TV is a commercial company. Channel five is owned by Big American company, about to become a different American company. Um, how they arrange their business. Um, dealings is kind of up to them. The government has sort of, you know, indicated to the CMA that they should look at, you know, if there was a potential merger, they should look at it and perhaps in a, in a slightly different light to what they might have done in previous years.

Um, but it's not as simple as that. I mean, you don't, how do you, you don't, how would you get ITV to merger? Channel four, for example, one's a private company owned by shareholders, one's a public company. So, um, look, as I said, if government wants to kind of insist on that kind of thing, then, then government, you know.

Can do so. But I think there's, I think before you get to that stage, and who knows, I mean, in 10, 15 years time, will there still be four different, um, outfits? Yeah. Are who know? Are they still, 

are there, is it sustainable? I think that's the question, but 

they, but I think there's a real willing now, and as I said, I've spoken to most of the chief executives of these companies.

There is a real willing now to kind of collaborate a bit more. Ahead of, you know, of going the ultimate goal. 'cause I think, look, I think it's great for Britain that we've got this plurality. Yeah. And you know, they've all got very different, um, remits Channel five, for example, makes enormous, uh, started making loads of, um, UK F.

Bass dramas, which I didn't use to. Yeah. Um, and they're commissioning content from people outside London. They got a really, you know, they've got a really distinct audience, the Channel four audience, which is very distinct from the ITV audience, which distinct from the BBC audience. Well, the problem is nobody's 

watching them.

Well, they're not watching them necessarily, and the old ways that they used to, but, you know, their content is still doing well and can do well on in different, um, different platforms. 

Yeah. Well, I guess it's that it's getting the balance between. Reach, which is obviously all the broadcasters want, and that's what the Yeah.

The psps are struggling with, um, plurality, as you say, you know? Yeah. Uh, having those distinct voices. So, I mean, uh, in terms of protecting audiences. Mm. Um, so we see the rise of, uh, AI created content, obviously clickbait, uh, deep fakes, uh, lots of different new, new types of content that are coming in with, uh, new.

Technologies In practical terms, what is Ofcom doing right now in the real world to protect viewers and consumers from this sort of content? 

Well, the broadcasters that we license, so that's, anyone who's broadcasting on a linear platform in this country, um, has to provide, um, content that is, you know, Julie accurate.

So if it's been, if it, you know, if it's been AI manipulated, then we would encourage them to tell people. So if it's in things like news and current affairs. There's a lot of work. There's, you know, AI is a double-edged thing. I think that there's a lot of opportunity in AI to reduce costs, for example, on production companies.

Yeah. We see we're seeing a lot that just in the last two, three weeks, there's a, a lot of, uh, uh, history content. Yeah. That's been commissioned by, uh, a and e for example, or Hearst, uh, networks now, which contains, uh, obviously factual. Correct. But AI. Created content, which, you know, really reduces their costs and gives them an opportunity to Yeah.

And 

if you're doing a costume drama, yeah. What's the difference between getting a load of costumes that you've hired from a shop and building a set that looks like 17th century Britain if AI can do it for you? Yeah. Um, and so it reduce, there is an opportunity to reduce the cost there. There's also opportunity, things like translation and subtitles and accessibility.

But yes, there's a risk, and particularly in our research at Ofcom, of which we do an awful lot of research, um, our research has shown that people trust content less the more it's been edited, fiddled with. 

Hmm. 

Treated, et cetera. So I think it's really important for, particularly in areas like news and current affairs, to make sure, and the broadcasters have, you know, discussed this with us and they, you know, their, their trust is part of their brand.

They wanna be quite open with people and if they do use, use ai, then they wanna say so. 

Okay, but you as, as Ofcom, you don't have a view on productions that are reducing their costs through the use of ai. You know, whether it be that, like the costume drama, uh, example you get, you don't have a particular view on that.

No, as long as I said, as long as content is made that is, you know, accurate, um, and that it is reflecting all of the uk then anything that helps bring down the production costs, you know, it is not a bad thing at all. We are, you know, there is also. The ability for AI to use an awful lot of missing, put out a lot of miss and disinformation as we call it.

Um, and so one of the things in our report, you'll, you'll see there is we're calling for a sort of a bit more of a focus on what we call media literacy, kind of digital citizenship, kind of asking yourself if you see something on, so, so for example, more and more people get their news on social media.

They trust social media a lot less, about 20%. People trust what they see on social media as opposed to sort of 70% or so when they see news on the big screen. And so it's, um, we're sort of calling for not just the government through education programs, et cetera, but also the broadcasters and the platforms to do more to help people develop a bit of critical thinking.

Just does social channels care? It depends which social channel you're talking about. Yeah. I mean, I think at the end of the day, nobody particularly wants to, um, intentionally putting around, you know, from the platform's point of view, they don't want to be putting around stuff that isn't necessarily true.

Mm. But, you know, the broadcasters have got a lot of followers on all these various platforms, and they're very keen to make sure that their content is seen in parallel with, you know. In parallel with perhaps different versions of the same story, if you see what I mean. Yeah, 

yeah. 

Um, and so I think it's really important that we kind of, as I said, develop a bit of critical thinking amongst people.

And it's not just kids, it's adults as well. Um, about what you see on social media might not necessarily be the whole truth. And actually you should be looking at lots of different things. 

Yeah. I mean, I, I, I tend to find that. You know, if I see a story that's, uh, like a new story, depending on what platform it could be, it could be X, uh, uh, it could be TikTok.

Uh, when I'm not watching content that is maybe news related. I would say recently I've probably found about, you know, 10 to 15% of the content I'm looking for is false, is clearly false. You know, that is hugely influential when it comes to young people in particular. Yeah, 

sure. Well, I've got 19 and 22 year olds who are my kind of barter of these things, and I asked him the other day, where'd you get your news?

TikTok. 

Yeah. 

And, uh, social media platforms. And I said, how'd you know it's true? And they said, first thing they do is look at the comments. 'cause it peer to peer kind of, um, yeah, sort of cross referencing is interesting to them. And then if it's a really, it's a story that seems outlandish, they said to me, we'll go to the B-B-C-I-T-V to check it.

So I think there is a, there is that kind of, you know, it's that growing sort of, oh, if it. Sounds really wild. It's worth checking out with one of the established podcasts, 

they're, they're in quite a media literate family. I suggest, well, they might BS maybe you think, but, um, but, 

but no, I'm saying that's the kind of skills that, that we are calling for, for people to develop.

Yeah. 

Yeah. Uh, because your remit off comes, remit does cover the pla social platforms, doesn't it? It does. When it comes to news under 

the sa, well, under the Online Safety Act, there is a requirement to make sure that the, um. The platforms are delivering, um, their content that's not harmful, uh, to children.

And there's all sort of rules about, and it's not my specialist area, but there's rules about illegal, um, terrorist content, et cetera, et cetera. There isn't a power about mis and disinformation. Um, I kind of think that's probably right because what's my information could be your disinformation. But we are, you know, the broadcasters, for example.

Tend still regulate their content wherever they put it to the same codes we do on the tv. 'cause it's part of their brand. They know that, um, they have a reputation for what they put out on social media channels Yeah. Will be fair and accurate and impartial. And that's a, that's a powerful weapon for them I think.

Yeah. Well, I, I, I think it is, and particularly when it comes to the way that news is reported in the uk. I remember looking, I remember looking at the storming of the capitol on various different US news networks. I was shocked by the different way that it was being reported by Fox and CNN and various different networks.

I mean, it was. Completely night and day. The, the, the, the, the commentary that, that was accompanying that at that time. But, so it is, you know, really important that will reinforce the power I think, of news organizations. Yeah. 

Which is why we are saying to the PSBs, you know, make sure that your content, that your public service content like news is out on the channels where people are watching it and consuming it.

Because that is the counterbalance if you like, to the disinformation out there. 

Yeah. Should. Media literacy be taught in schools 

only if it's taught the right way, nothing worse, then no teenager will listen to a boring adult waning on at them about something that they're not particularly interested. I think it's very important that it is part of the curriculum.

Um, but that's down to, you know, department of Education to decide. And the devolved governments, it's not comp thing. 

Is there a movement? Is is there any lobbying happening? Oh, there's always lobbying 

happening. Um, I think it's actually part of the curriculum in Scotland and in and in Wales in particular.

Um, but it's all about how you do it. I went to a really interesting conference in, um, the Republic of Ireland last year where their regulator does quite a lot in this area, and it was, I think it was a little competition for people to kind of show. Community projects, and actually it's, it's at that grassroots level.

So a local radio station went and did roadshows in schools, um, reminded me of the olden days. And they, they had like a campaign through their local libraries. And I think it's those. And we, we work with a lot of grassroots organizations, um, and community level things. That's the best way for spreading, for kind of getting information out to people.

Um, but yeah, as I said, I, I think in our report we talk about the importance of it. Again, it's for the government to decide. The government, Westminster government, and also the devolve governments to decide what goes in the curriculums in their schools. But we would urge that media literacy should be part of that.

It's all part of, they're all gonna vote from 1617 soon. So there needs to be equipped in as many ways they possibly can. Yeah. 

Well that makes it, uh, absolutely even more critical, doesn't it, for, for the right choices to be made and, uh, the right information to be communicated. So you are promising a fundamental review of broadcast regulation.

Specifically, what sort of outdated rules are you seeing now that need scrapping? 

We've kept it. And it's not the answer you want, but we've kept it at a kind of relatively high level because actually what we want to do is to set out a kind of call for evidence later in the autumn to find out a, what government obviously is particularly interested, but also what stakeholders would like us to do.

I am committed to making sure that the regulation of broadcasting, um, and I use broadcasting in sort of a small B because it's kind of disseminates, it's that content word. I don't like content. It's not as good as. Programs and shows is it, but you know what I mean. Um, it's just really important that we make sure that our regulation of content is kind of fit for the modern world and the modern way that we're doing things.

And we want to make it easier for the stakeholders to be regulated as well as for audiences to know that they're kind of kept safe. 

Um, so Mo moving on to innovation. Mm. Which is a key, another key recommendation. And you've highlighted how, how little audience share PSB VOD players. Uh, like iPlayer and I vx have compared to Netflix and YouTube, for example, I've got some notes here.

PS Bvo players, 9% of all viewing subscription streaming services like Netflix, prime Video, Disney plus 15%, and online video sharing platforms like YouTube and TikTok 19%. So that's twice over, over double the amount they're watching PSB on VOD players do. I mean, clearly the PSBs have fallen behind when it comes to innovation here.

Do you think they're still trapped in a, like a legacy mindset? 

I don't think they are anymore, but they 

have been, 

well, I think they've been, I think some of them have been a bit slow to, to, to kind of deliver content the way people want it done. I'm not gonna call out any companies 'cause that would be unfair.

Yeah. And off can we, you know, we treat everyone the same. 

Mm. 

Um, but I think that it is, um, you know, it's a big ask to, you know, to have the technology to provide. User friendly, audience friendly, um, streaming systems that work as well as, you know, Netflix, who put billions of money into their technology whilst still running a legacy, um, DTT platform.

It's a tough ask for broadcasters and I think they, you know, in the main, they're doing a good job. Um, I do think that there are big challenges in the future in terms of, as I said, technologies. Is not cheap. And you wanna be able to make sure that your player, your streaming, your live streams are kind of evolving to the same sort of standards.

And the other thing to remember is that. The, you have to pay for Netflix and Amazon and Disney Plus and Paramount, and they all certainly add up. And I, you know, I'm sure, um, like many of us who are interested in tv, we subscribe to an awful lot of these things and it becomes a lot of money and a time when, you know, all our living costs are being squeezed.

It's really important that great content is not just on those platforms, but is also being viewed on the, on the. On the, um, public service broadcasters platforms. But I do think, yeah, it's a massive challenge for them on a technological basis and an audience experience basis. And I, that's why I think collaborating together might really help them in that respect.

Right. Okay. 

So within your recommendations, obviously the, uh, focused around public service broadcasters on the platforms as well, but what about, um, smaller digital first businesses producers? Because we've seen the rise of. Of small independent studios that are creating their own content and going digital first, are these recommendations just about protecting and, and, and steering the PSBs or is there anything that you think should be done to encourage and uh, and build.

The frame, a framework and a, a, a, a new economy for digital first studios, smaller studios that can, that can compete. I mean, now realistically, you know, a small bedroom company can actually compete with a major multinational, uh, broadcaster without any doubt. Particularly AI is helping that. So, you know, are, are your recommendations, are there any recommendations that you have that are gonna protect and encourage those smaller businesses?

This report is specifically about public service broadcasting. Um, there is plenty of public service broadcasting that's done not by the PSBs. There's a lot of, you know, great content, whether it's adolescents on Netflix, um, or whether it's, you know, some great content, some great documentaries I've seen on Netflix, I've seen on Disney Plus.

The problem is they're already great programs and they do show Britain and they do reflect all different parts of the country, but they don't have to do them. So they can change their mind. Netflix at the moment is commissioning lots of UK content. Toxic town, for example, was another one. Um, but they might decide in two or three years time, then they're not gonna do it again.

So this is specifically about public service broadcasting now. Ofcom does have a wider remit to make sure the independent production sector is healthy in this country. Um, we don't have any powers in that respect, but we kind of lead and, and, and in discussions on that. But again, I would say that the sort of evolving digital first economy, the people that are making, um, YouTube programs I saw the other day, Avalon are making, um.

Heard it on your show, Alon doing spitting image just for YouTube, aren't they? YouTube first. Yeah. So I think, you know, encouraging and uh, and that's part of what the government, I think was doing with its creative skills strategy, recognizing that this is a country that's got amazing talent in, um, creativity, in production, in lighting, and making sure that, that that economy continues to grow.

It brings in. Billions, literally for UK PLC. And so I think it's an in part, important part of that, um, product of that production community. But we don't have any specific remits and leavers to pull on it. 

Yeah. Okay. Um, in, in one of the headlines of, of your report, you call Public service media an endangered species.

Yeah. 'cause I do, I think if we don't do, I, I feel quite strongly about this. If we do nothing, if we just carry on as we are, it really will wither on the vine. Do we want a place where the B, b, C, the only people that do it, um, do we want, we will wake up one day and, you know, you'll find that it's gone and then you'll miss it.

But, but isn't the fact that they're, uh, they are an endangered species. Isn't that because Hof com's regulatory framework hasn't kept pace? 

Look, you don't, regulation doesn't make. Doesn't make audiences watch programs. Okay. And doesn't stop audience watching programs. So at the key to it, you've gotta make great content that people to watch where they're watching it.

Um, I don't think regulation has stifled any of that at all. In fact, we've in, you know, we've encouraged a lot of, um, uh, content to be made outside London in a world where, where that wasn't the case before. There's a lot more production being made outside London, outside. The UK, outside England, you know, we're seeing flourishing communities now in Cardiff.

Look at Manchester. Look how that's expanded. Um, so I, I don't think that regulation has been a break on any of this, 

but this, this intervention, which is, you know, is quite a lot of strong recommendations you are making. And, and as I said, we, you know, this is about. This endangered species? I mean, is it just too little, too late?

I mean, hasn't the horse bolted already, like in, you know, like 2, 3, 4 years ago? I mean, I think that, you know, that everyone's seen the rise of the stream as though everyone's looked at the challenges that public service broadcasters have had for a number of years. Nothing's changed and, and all that's happened is that, you know, uh.

The eyeballs have gone the, and following them the, uh, marketing budgets and advertising budgets have gone and followed, followed them to, to the social platforms who are now, you know, the most powerful. Companies on the planet. 

I'm a bit more of a glass half full person. I still think there's some fantastic programming being made that has real consequences.

Look at itvs Mr. Bates in the post office. You know, I mean there are still post people waiting for compensation, but look how that sparked that conversation and drove that campaigning. Um, and you know, that got really big numbers, um, over that it was beginning of January, wasn't it? So I think there is a real.

Desire still for people to kind of consume that kind of content. Yeah, it is. Yeah. It's more fragmented. That didn't get made 

as well, that show because, uh, you know, the, the of the costs. Uh, that's, that, that's what, but it did get 

made it, it did get made, made just about. Yeah. And what we are trying to say in our report is that to make sure that those kinds of programs are people being made.

And yes, they being made on other platforms, but they don't, they crucially don't have to do it. So I think, you know, at the end of the day, if you come up with some great content and it's well made, people will watch it. 

Let's, uh, let's look at five years time. Oh, gosh. Yeah, I know. But, uh, eons away. But not, but not, no, it's not, is it?

Yeah. I mean, if you think about, you know, five years is, is, uh, is, is, you know, not even a, a, a child's sort of lifetime at school. Mm. Um. If you were there in, you know, I mean, it's impossible. I realize for you to say, you know, what, what would, uh, what's it gonna be like in five years time? But what do you think, what would you, what would make Ofcom say in five years time that you know, we help save.

UK public service media. 

What a great thing that would be to be able to say, look, again, I'm, I'm fairly optimistic. The last report we did, small screen, big debate, led to the media act, which we're in the process of enforcing, and that is gonna make a difference. We are giving prominence to the public service broadcasters on smart TVs, which are now seven in seven or eight.

10, um, out of 10 homes. Um, so that's gonna make a real difference to them. Radio, local radio has been deregulated and so that is able, that is continuing to flourish. Um, and there's a, you know, there's a lot of stuff in, in the media act about channel four being able to own its own IP to give it a fighting chance.

Now, that report was published five years ago and is now in play. What I really hope that some of the things that we've put out today are in five years time, we are enforcing as legislation. 

All right. Okay. Well, um, Christine and Tiqui, thank you so much for joining on today. Thank very me. It's been really great to, uh, have a discussion and I'd love to speak to your colleague about, uh, the social media side in, uh, in detail at some point.

I'd love to have a chi about that, but, uh, thank you very much for coming on the show. 

Ah, thank you for having me. 

Well, that's about it for another week's show. Telecast was produced by Spirit Studios and recorded in London. On next week's show, Danny Joshi from Big Deal Films gives us the lowdown and the bathroom.

Winning production business. Until then, stay safe.