Dhanny Joshi on Building Big Deal Films and the Future of Social Video

Big Deal Films co-founder Dhanny Joshi joins Justin Crosby to share how he turned a call centre hustle into a BAFTA-winning indie. They discuss breaking through with Dreaming Whilst Black, navigating the commissioning crisis, and why digital-first, talent-led content is the future of TV.

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Transcript

Welcome to TellyCast, the podcast for everyone in the business of tv, content and social video. I'm Justin Crosby. This week I'm joined by Danny Jhoshi, co-founder and managing director of BAFTA winning. Big deal films from its roots as a startup with a mission to bring underrepresented stories to the screen.

Big Deal has become one of the UK's most exciting indie production companies, creating hit shows across TV and digital platforms. We'll be talking about how Danny built a company, the challenges of making youth focused and diverse content in today's market. What's changing in commissioning and where he sees the biggest opportunities in the years ahead?

It's all coming up on this week's TellyCast.

Danny, welcome to TellyCast. How are you doing? Nice one, Justin. Thanks for having me. Not at all. Great to have you on the show, and, uh, congratulations on everything. A big deal and we're gonna get into, , that in a minute. So for anyone who doesn't know big deal, and so a lot of people in the UK do, obviously you've got a, a relatively high profile in the industry.

Yeah. Tell us about Big Deal. Tell us about how you founded the company, what's it origins are, and, uh, bring us up to date with what, with what you're up to. Sure. 

So I'm gonna try and speed up the last few years in a quick, uh, anecdote. So, um, so yeah, look, thanks for having me. Firstly, I'm a big fan of the podcast and, uh, it's a tv, it's a TV industry checklist, tick thing to have been on here.

So great stuff. Thanks for having me. Oh, cool. So, uh, okay, so orange is a big deal, so. Background. I was working in the music industry. I was working in PR and um, I was at a PR company. I was new business manager. From there, I was winning contracts. On the, on the day when I've met an artist that I wanted to manage, I was like, listen, I'm gonna manage you.

I'll be your manager. You'll be the artist, and go back upstairs after my lunch break where I'd negotiated this talent manager deal, go upstairs and go into work. I was like, listen, uh, I'm here carrying on with my job. And they said, listen, we have to have a word. Tomorrow's gonna be your last day because we're having a restructure.

We're gonna have to make you redundant. So I was like, damn, I just had my talent manager hat music industry dream just set up there. I was just saying, I'm gonna do that whilst I have this nine to five job. And they've just made me redundant. And then the, the following day was my final day. They said, what you gonna do next?

I said, well, whatever it is, it'll be a big deal. And then light bulb went off. I called my company, big deal. I also had a misplaced ego, so I moved to London. I got a job in a PR company. I decided I never wanted to work for anyone ever again. And 

you're originally from I'm 

from Kent. 

Okay. 

So I was, when I was even doing the job, I was commuting every day from Kent.

So I moved to West London and got a job in the call center in Acton, and I started doing surveys for PWC. So Pricewater Ask Group is, so my call center name was Daniel Levy. I'm a Spurs fan, so Right. I called myself that. I, I, I was talking when I, I knew I, if I was gonna be talking to Jewish people. I'd call myself Daniel Levy if I knew I was gonna be talking to a Hindu.

'cause you can kind of tell from the name, I'd call myself Rajesh. If I knew I was gonna be talking to a Sikh, I'd call myself Harpal. If I knew I was talking to an English guy, I'd call myself Roger. I like it. Yeah. So that would, that would pick up the steam. That allowed me to then set up my talent management business, which was managing musicians.

So on the side, so I was building up my roster. Then I got introduced to an actor called Adam Deacon, who was a musician and he was also an actor. One year into managing him we got nominated for the BAFTA Rising Star Award. So in our category was Tom Hiddleston, Eddie Redman, Chris O'Dowd, Chris Hemsworth, at a time when Avengers was out, Maru with Marilyn, all the big Hollywood films.

Um, and the media were giving them all the attention when it came to the shortlist being announced, but not Adam. And when I asked CNNI was like, why aren't you interviewing Adam? They said He's not right for our audience. And then that triggered a thought process in my head with. What the TV industry might be like, or what the entertainment business is like.

So from my call center job, uh, I reached out to all my friends in the music industry who were rappers and said, look, you need to vote for Adam for the BAFTA, right? And you need to, I'm gonna send you this tweet. Just write, copy and paste the tweet. We, let's get behind Adam hashtag hackney versus h. Texas number.

So all the rappers started putting out, now I should caveat by saying the, the BAFTA Rising Star Ward is the only BAFTA that's voted for by the British public. Yeah. So even if the media is showing the other guys all the attention, this is the only one that's judged by the public vote. So our mission was we're not gonna get the media on side.

We have to get the public vote, we have to go out to audiences. This is 2012. So it gives you a snapshot as to the time of what, what that time was and social media and how in its infant stages. It actually was. Got all the rappers to get behind it and I then I started reaching out to the pops, the, you know, the pop manager, so one Directions management, Jay Sean's management, Leon Lewis's, and I said, look, I know your clients love Adam.

Here's the tweet. Just copy and paste it. One direction. Put the tweet out. It went absolutely crazy. Then I reached out. Then I got more brave. I started reaching out to Simon Cowell and James Cordon and Rio Nan and Wade Rooney, and all their teams said, yep, fine. We'll back Adam. And what we did is we created a Hackney versus Hollywood angle, which is we are the underdogs.

They're the establishment. The media don't respect us. But 'cause we came, 'cause I came from black music, from a industry standpoint, we've all, black music's always been the underdog, but it has popular culture in its hands. So, um, anyways, we ended up winning the BAFTA. We on the BAFTA, won the BAFTA. 

Um, well you won the BAFTA in many ways, right?

I mean, well, I did the campaign. I was, I was doing that campaign for my call center job. So I'd hit my strike rate for the day. I said to my supervisor, chips. I'll get the strike rate for the day. I'll get it within the first hour. Then you have to just let me get on with it in the corner. 'cause I didn't have phone minutes, so I had to use the official phone to do it.

Awesome. 

So anyways, did that. Then I started managing Hamza Arshad, who was the UK's first big YouTuber with Die of a Badman. What I realized is had a BAFTA winner, I had a YouTuber that had cities all around the UK on lock, engaged with his YouTube. He would do a video, he'd get 5 million views within a few days.

And I remember going into the BB, C. This is in 2013, and I reached out and I said, listen, look, we need to, this is what Hamsa is doing. This is what Adam's doing. And they said, you have more views on your YouTube channel Hamza than we have on our linear channel. Go work with a production company and come back to us.

And I'd reached out to production companies and they, they didn't understand the cultural code and they didn't understand online audiences. And there was, there was an ignorance to YouTube's success. I thought it, not much has changed really, actually. But anyway, that's changed. But so imagine at that time it's 2013.

I'm still working in a call center. I've, uh, got a roster that has credibility, has audiences, has the youth, but the industry was turning their back. They didn't engage with us so. My, my friend at the time and friend now Thomas, he, uh, who was actually the rapper that I first started managing, right? He was working in development at the time and he shared the same frustrations I did.

He was pitching talent, he was pitching ideas and they weren't getting the pickup within the company, nor the channels. So we thought to ourselves, there's so much talent out there that is underserved, that should be on screen, that has young audiences, has engaged audiences that are just. Not being serviced.

There's an audience there that are just not being served right? I can see that because I see the analytics on YouTube, and if the onscreen divers is as bad as it is, it's gonna be even, it's gonna be catastrophic offscreen. The talent that should be working offscreen isn't gonna be there. So we figured if we can, if we can service culture, if we can service audience, if we can service talent.

We've got a company here. And so we were absolutely mission led with making a change, but we also saw there was a huge opportunity to set up a company that services this. And we had faith that we could make up a go of this. So that's what set up a big deal. That's 

a brilliant story. And, it's interesting 'cause you, you can tell your PR background has really come in handy.

Right? And I'm sure that's something that still comes in handy now. And, uh, in, in, certainly in the TV industry, you need to have a sort of a handle on how to communicate, , not only when it comes to selling your shows, but you know. Building, building connections and building relationships and, and in this case, you know, certainly the world of social media, you know, that communication is absolutely crucial.

So, so when you set up this business, you do scripted and unscripted, right? So tell us about, tell us about the content that, that you produce at Big Deal then. Talent has been at the key 

of everything that we do. So there was, so London Live, wanted London Live was setting up, that was set up by the guy that set up Evening Standard and uh, Darren Lawford.

Do you know Darren? Yes. Darren Lawford from their pictures. Brilliant guy. He reached out and he said, I wanna have Hamza on the channel. And he said, okay, well, I said, okay, that's fine. We can sort that out, but we have to produce it. He said, who's we? Like big deal films. Right? We weren't even south then.

Yeah. Alright. And he said, okay, then come to my office mate. Two days later, Thomas and I, we turned up in suits, right? Turned up in suits. We took time off our call center jobs and we turned up to dairy house, uh, in High Street, Ken, with a deck. We said, look, this is who we're gonna work with. Because he knew that we didn't have any experience.

I said, we're gonna work with this director, this ap, this cameraman. We gave him a deck and he said, fine, you've got the commission. He gave us a one hour commission, 10,000 budget. Tom and I thought, we are gonna leave our jobs, right? We, oh, we, we quid in 10 grand for one hour. What now? 10 grand for one hour.

Jesus Christ. But anyways, at the time, so we start, we, we delivered though that was a key thing. We delivered this documentary and um, it gave us a confidence to start doing more. So we focused on unscripted first. Telling, doing documentaries that was a lower hanging fruit. We then became the suppliers for the vts For the one show.

Yeah. And in real time, we were having, we were sitting there and we had a conversation with 'em and they were talking amongst themselves, oh, we don't have any Bain suppliers. And Bain was the term at the time, you wouldn't use it now. But we don't have any BA suppliers or diverse suppliers. So we then cornered ourselves into doing their diverse.

Themed stories. So in the space of a couple of years, two, three years, we delivered about 80 short VTS for them, four and a half minutes long. But how'd you tell a story in that short amount of time And we delivered and we were winning them awards, right? So we did that. Then, uh, with going into unscripted.

It's a funny story and I, I think we're passed the statute of limitations now, so I can't be sued. 

Okay. 

But, um, good. Go on. So spell the beans. So, so, so Hamza BBC three wanted Hamza on their channel and, uh, they said, look, so we did a short vt, we did a short for them. It was for five minutes long, it's called Taken the Hamza, where Hamza plays a gentrified Pakistani comedian who's trying to be accepted in the UK and overtly plays his card of trying to be British when he is actually a Pakistani from from Pakistan.

Anyways. Delivered it and it was pre Brexit and it landed really well. It got them a lot of views and they said, oh, you know what, go do another 10 of these. But it was Hamza playing like a fictionalized, Pakistani going out in the public slightly. Bo Ratish, we got the commission, we signed the contract, and then B, B, C were like, here's 10 episodes, six minutes long.

Go deliver it, sign the contract. Hamza then says, I don't wanna do this kind of show. And I was like, ah. What do you mean? He trained as an actor, so he always wanted to do acting. He didn't wanna do a a Borat style show where you are, he's playing a character, but he's going out in the real world. So I was like, well, what do you wanna do?

He said, well, why don't we turn this into a sitcom now as his manager, I'm like, that's a great idea. I can break you as an actor that way. He was trained by Tom Hardy. He had a huge audience. I was like, this is genius, the producer in me. Right. I've just signed a contract. And B, B, C are now expecting this.

Yeah. So I, I thought, you know what, let's just, let's run with it and let's just ask for forgiveness later. Right? So we did it, we've got 10 scripts written. Had a very, very bizarre process of, uh, selecting the talent, which was got instinct actually, which was met a bunch of writers and, uh, the agent sent whoever across and I went with the guy that was, had Air Force ones on, but had a really good instinct.

He just knew the world. Right. And same thing with directors. The big agents sent all their esteemed, uh, experienced directors. But the guy we went with was a Lebanese guy who hadn't had a big series but had good instincts. And I said, I think you're the guy. And he said, I've had my third rejection this week.

Don't do this to me. Right. Just you can be polite and just say, look, it's not happening. I was like, no, I think you're the guy. And, uh, we, that was our team. We made the series. It was a crash course in learning how to make a scripted show. I'd never made one before. We had a 60 k budget to deliver the unscripted commission.

We ended up making us 10 episodes, 10 scripted episodes on the same budget. I almost went out of business. I had no, I had my, my, my, the director was like, I need a third ad. And I was like, you've got first ad, you've got second ad. Why'd you need a third ad for, right. I had no idea. Yeah. But we learned, we made the show, it got number six on I Player, and it established us as a scripted.

So, so just, just take it one step back. So you delivered something completely different to what you'd been commissioned then. I mean, and how did that go down? Yeah, so what was, what was that experience like? 

It's a valid question. So, uh, I actually reached out to Damien Kavanaugh and, um, I asked him, and I said to him, actually, no C let me, no.

Before that I reached out to BTA Baal, who's now at Fremantle, and I said, listen, look. We've de, we've got these 10 scripts. I think it's really good. We're gonna need a little bit more money because it's really expensive and we're just trying to hire a couple of more positions. And she went to Damien and said, well, Damien, look, this is what they're doing.

What do you think? Damien Kavanaugh called me at 10 o'clock at night and said, Babe's told me that you've made this a scripted show. Pause. I was like, oh God. Then he said, um, I've read the scripts. They're really fucking funny. Can I swear? Sorry. I shouldn't swear. They're very funny. And, uh, I'm gonna give you some extra money.

Go make this, go make this a show that we can be proud of. BBC supported us. They backed it. I mean, it's helps that we had scripts that were funny. Yeah. 

Otherwise 

that would've been a problem. And rightfully so. Yeah. But they liked the scripts and, uh, without even realizing I'd taken money, what was supposed to be for one pot.

Took it out of another pot. Didn't even understand the, the politics around entertainment pot, which is where this commission was originally from. Yeah. And going it to being, it being scripted. But, uh, we took the chance and, um, we made a funny show. It was called Coconut. 

Right. Okay. And it, and you got to, what you say, number six, but to number six on the iPlay.

It got to number 

six on the iPlay charts. And, uh. Uh, when, uh, there was a court case recently, and so Braman got called coconut and uh, they, ja they imprisoned the person that had a sign saying, so Brahman's a coconut. And, um, in court the lawyer said coconut is a, is a known term, amongs, ethnic minorities.

And then they played an episode of coconut. Oh, really? In court. And the person got not guilty. Wow. Yeah. Anyway. Used as evidence. 

Yeah. There you go. So, uh. So this is a pretty unconventional, uh, move into tv, uh, which is brilliant, and I love stories like this. So when, so when did you move from, I suppose, you know, taking these chances and, and going against the grain and sort of, and perhaps delivering things that broadcasters weren't originally signing up for.

When did you get to the point of. Big deal becoming, you know, really seen and respected on the, in the uk uh, production industry as a, as a, as a player. 

Our position was, we were known from very early that we were championing, uh, voices and talent from underrepresented backgrounds. And I, I, I'm trying not to constantly use the word diverse underrepresented backgrounds.

Yeah. Right. And we were some of the, we were one of the first to champion onscreen, Mo Gilligan, London Hughes, Hamza Arshad. Monroe Bergdorf and the agencies started to recognize that big deal is a safe place for our talent. So agents would sign up their talent that may be from an underrepresented background, and they would probably know 80% of the production companies may not give 'em the time of day.

Not just talent from underrepresented backgrounds, but emerging talent. Talent they've got that are on the way up, who they recognize, have something special about them, but haven't quite. Got done enough to get the attention and the time of an established, a larger production company. So we started noticing that agents were recognizing us and then after, after a number of our one show films and they were coming out, they were winning awards, the channels started to recognizing that we were a place that talent could go to.

And they went. They were coming to us and saying, we like this talent. Would you work with them? And. The reputation started carving itself out where the inquiries were incoming. 

Mm-hmm. 

And so that's when I started recognizing that we are known and we respected by the channels we'd always deliver. No matter how unconventional our route to market was, we always delivered.

Thomas, my business partner, is so meticulous with the creative and the delivery that, um, we never took shortcuts. And so that was, that helped 

I guess one of the, one of the, um. Key questions is that it's balancing that authentic representation with commercial success when it comes to broadcasters.

I mean, that's, that's probably easy to deliver against now than perhaps it was in, in the development of big, big deal. I mean, do, do you, is, do you agree with that? Is that, is that an accurate statement, do you think? Do you think now you've built your brand up and, and, uh. And your reputation up in the industry enough that there is, that trust a, a aspect there.

And, and also our broadcast is looking for more, you, you, uh, you didn't like to use the word. Yeah, no, but let's pull through. Yeah. So 

we've had some shows that have worked. We've had some shows that haven't. Right. And one thing that is paramount throughout is that the importance of story and the importance of the format.

And you've got to be led by those two things first. I think when you try and make a show and you. Dive into the diversity of the show, and that becomes your messaging. And that's why you made the show. You've lost the audience. You've lost the audience. You've actually made it for think we've gotta treat audiences as, um, and underrepresented audiences, diverse audience, whatever you wanna call 'em.

We've gotta treat them with a lot more intelligence, right? Which is, they're not gonna tune into a show because they see themselves on the show. That might be a bonus. It's a nice bolt on, but they watch a show because they're engaged in the storyline. They're engaged in the format. It moves them. It's, that's what's important.

When we make our content, we want to know is it funny? Is it relatable? Is it warm? Does it feel familiar? Those are the things that we think the audiences want to get into. If they relate to the story or if they know someone that's gone through something, they'll probably watch it. And I think that's what's, that's been the key here with dreaming whilst black.

It had relatable themes, had a bad workplace, it had love, it had trying to be enough for your girlfriend and constantly doubting yourself. And people related to the themes. It was, was it a diverse show? Yeah, unknown cast, relatively speaking made by a small production company like Big Deal films.

But the audience. Related to the show and that's why it traveled. I mean, it was the most sold show of 2023 globally. Right. So I think Has it got easier? No, I think audiences still want a good story and if they, if they're engaged with a story, if they're engaged with a format, you, you'll get your show. And I think also with that, it's, it's, we also have to recognize that everyday Joe Blogs who might be in Skor.

We'll also watch a show that may have a diverse cast in it because they engage with a storyline. I think if you focus on that. You can't fail. 

So, um, we've talked mainly about traditional tv, if you like, traditional TV commissions, but, um, you're, you, you also, uh, at the beginning you talked about YouTube and success of YouTube working with creators.

How do you work with digital first projects right now? Are there, are you working on any, have you, do you run any channels? Are you, how are you engaging with the new production landscape? It's a good question. So 

we've. We don't, we haven't set up our own YouTube channels yet, but we are going into a digital first strategy.

We started off as a digital supplier, so we would do a lot of our early commissions. Were sitting on YouTube. A disabled fight club for Channel four was a YouTube first show. We recently did one for channel four, 4.0 called Goed, which was YouTube first. We are familiar with creating shows that sit on YouTube first and then branch out.

Uh, we are embracing it. Uh, our, our whole strategy, I guess, is you're creating a show and you'll have your add-ons with it as well. You'll have a u, you'll have your clips for YouTube. You'll have your clips for social media. I think we found with Hamza and Die of a Badman, he had his character Die of a Badman.

It was a very popular YouTube web series. Probably maybe done about 115, 20 million views. We had that. We then built it into a kids book series. From that, we're now building into an animation series. So for us it's about how you build that world and builds from there. I think it's IP 

at the center of it's ip, at the center of it 

ip.

IP is obviously king, and so. I think what we've lived over the last 10 years is we've seen the shift from YouTube. So before YouTube just was a platform where creators would try something to see if it'll work, and then hopefully they'll get the attention of a commissioner. They then get the commission and we've, it's discovered this painfully ourselves.

They'll then get the commission and often the concept is softened, it's neutralized. The edges come off a bit and then it doesn't. It doesn't land. The Commissioner then loses faith in YouTubers, the YouTube YouTubers and the Creative lost faith in the system because they're like, we tried and it didn't work.

Now, before YouTube was a place where you would go because you just needed to try something. Now it's a place people got creators go because they're their own boss. They have editorial control. They're not bogged down by compliance and all of the above. And so. They don't, they no longer have to wait for validation.

They validate themselves. And so for our strategy, going back to talent, we're focusing more now and working with talent who wanna do more digital, who wanna have complete creative control. And um, that's where our strategy is now. YouTube, audio visual, all of the above and just content can live on multiple platforms.

And that's where we are putting more time into now and stuff. And it can have the same ip, but what. The audiences want different things 

by specializing in in content for underrepresented audiences. Are you saying seeing the same pressures when it comes to commissioning? Um, because there are quotas, a number of different mm-hmm.

Broadcasters have got quotas for under underrepresented uh, groups. Do you, do you think that that's that's, is that comforting for you? Does that sort of save, you know, does that, uh, keep you less exposed to the, the general market at the moment? There's been times 

when, uh, we've pitched and you, you are just competing with everyone else, and sometimes you, you, you want that diverse quota there because it holds the channels accountable and it brings some equality to the playing field.

Because if you're in a commissioning team. And well say you're pitching to a team of commissioners and there's no one in that commissioning team that looks like you, and this is an experience that we've had. They're not gonna understand the cultural nuance. They're not gonna understand why it's important.

Now, the, the idea obviously has to be great and it has to stand on its own two feet. But if there's less of a cultural understanding. You're just not gonna, it's gonna be harder for you to break through. Yeah. And to be considered. And then you've got a, your, your idea will be in that commissioner room with everyone.

And, um, if no one understands it and no one understands a why, or no one understands the talent, or no one, no one understands the audience, it's very difficult. Right. A, a big thing for us actually was when we were initially pitching. We couldn't get meetings with any of the channels. Then at the start of a year, BBC employed six assistant commissioners di commissions from underrepresented backgrounds in each of the genres.

The moment that happened within three months, we got six commissions. 

Wow. Because 

these commissioners knew what we were talking about. They understood the cultural code, and so that's been really important Now. Uh, yeah, sure. It's important. It's, those quotas are helpful, but I don't think they exist anymore.

Mm. 

Diversity we've seen has been, it's sort of forgotten about in TV at the moment. Uh, I was on a panel last year at the Edinburgh TV Festival, and it was, is this the beginning of the end of de and I, right. That's, that's what it was. You had four heads of diversity on the same panel as me basically.

Almost lobbying to keep their jobs. Yeah. I'm using extreme language, but that's, it's what it was. So right now, I mean, we're seeing it in Hollywood. The heads of these departments are going Channel four's. The head of diversity has just left. I'm gonna ask you what diversity are now. It's just a case of the money talks.

The slots are less so. You've gotta make the idea work 10 times harder. You've gotta be in everyone's faces. You've got to hold the commissioners to 

account. So so how are you seeing it then, the general landscape, uh, TV commissioning landscape at the moment? I mean, the past year have you found it's tougher.

Definitely. 

Yeah. Yeah. I don't think we can sugarcoat how difficult the last year and a half has been. I don't wanna have an, I don't wanna hear another slogan. Was it stay alive till 25? Yeah, 

survive till 25 and yeah, stay in the mix 

till 26. I'm not staying in the mix till 26, but, uh, but no, it's been really hard market conditions.

I think a number of companies, peers, friends, even ourselves, we've all had to make very difficult decisions. Yeah, you had to streamline your slate. It's been hard. I think where we're at now, I think the market has somewhat corrected itself and I do see more activity in the marketplace. I see that we are busier as well, so, um, I don't wanna be glass half empty.

I think things are picking up. Um, 

is this both on the scripted and unscripted side? Yeah. 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, we've got a number of funded developments happening at the moment. Uh, we are in production on a unscripted four part series. Dreaming Wise Black is, uh, you know, we are in the edit on season two at the moment, so there is activity happening, and I think there was a course of market correction taking place.

I think everything was so inflated over the last few years. The streamers had come in. Blown up all the budgets people just inflation was what it was. The industry can't sustain that. There's no, there's no magic pot where everything's just gonna come in. Sometimes it's a perfect storm, so you do have to ride the wave with it.

And, you know, we did, but I think we're just seeing a lot of consolidation and we're just seeing a lot of streamlining. 

Do you, um. So with the, with the commissioning system, uh, now, um, generally the commissioning system hasn't really changed in this industry for decades. What do you find is the biggest blocker really, you know, what's the most frustrating thing as a, as a producer producing the sort of content that you do?

Sure. 

I think there's a, i, I think there's a lack of bravery and trust at times. And I think risk aversion is often disguised as process. 

Yeah. 

Uh, I spoke to a commissioner recently and uh, they, they loved an idea that we presented and it couldn't move forward. And their, their, their point was they said, Danny, look, right now we're in the commissioning room.

We have the money there, but we'd rather co. For to, to retain our audience, we need to recommission a season three or a season four of something that might deliver an audience on the third or fourth series, but that's more guaranteed than taking a punt on a new show or with a new talent. That's very frustrating for talent because you know how, how are you gonna break through if you don't get a chance?

But that just tells you that the thought process within these commissioning rooms at the moment, I can't say that speaks for every channel, but I imagine the last two years have been very similar to that. Where the money said, I don't, I don't believe the money's no longer there. I think the money is there.

Yeah. 

But the appetite for what they perceive as risk is not what they perceive as risky, and oh, that's taking too much of a chance. I don't think there's that bravery inside the room at the moment or the appetite to be brave. And I think that's what's impacting decisions at the moment. 

Yeah. And that.

I suppose that is the last thing you want in a healthy TV ecosystem, isn't it? I mean, you know, the, the, the number of brave decisions over the last 20, 30 years that have been made for shows that have become breakout, international successes. A lot of those, a lot of those decisions have, have, you know, have been brave decisions and and have a massive cultural impact, not only in the UK but internationally as well. You can't see a lot of that happening at the moment. It's just about, you know, title formats being rebooted and and as you say, you know, recommissions of, of shows that are not necessarily doing brilliantly, but you know, they're, they're easy, easier to re commission than make a, uh, make a risky, risky commission.

Right. 

Yeah. I, I, I think these, I think. And here's the thing, I don't think it's easy for commissioners at all right now. I think it's really hard. They're fighting for their jobs. 

Mm. 

You go on LinkedIn, you see another commissioner leaving to set up a new venture, and it's difficult. You know they back something.

If it doesn't work out, you lose your job. It's just the very nature we're dealing with people's lives here. Yep. That's what it is. So I have, I, I certainly have a level of em. I have a lot of empathy for them. 'cause some of these people are friends, but that's just the nature of the business we're in right now.

Yeah. So, I mean, look, if it was up to me, if I had to do a commissioning overhaul, I would just give more runway to early stage ideas. I would just think, you know what, there's been some amazing, incredible crossover hits that have come off the back of a hunch. So let's back those hunches. Not everything needs to be a fleshed out deck.

Not everything needs to be, I dunno, an Excel sheet presentation and just come in early and just back instincts. Its instincts that have made this industry, the uk industry, so rich. We need to go back to that. Yeah. But 

less commissioning by data and AI and maybe a bit more about, uh, cultural and, uh, risk taking.

Yeah, 

absolutely. Listen, there was so many places that turned down dreaming whilst black didn't see the potential, didn't see the growth, thought the world was gonna be too small. We heard it all. 

Yeah. 

We had to back, we had to back the initial development ourselves as well, alongside the BBC, who were brilliant.

And you know, Sarah Satani was our commissioner and. She backed it on a hunch. It wasn't like it had a million views on YouTube. It had about 15, 20,000, and I'm not downplaying that at all. Yeah. 15,000. 15, 20,000 people in a concert is a lot of people. Right? Yeah. So let's not downplay that in any kind of way.

But by the normal metrics of what we hear now is something having millions of views or it's gone viral. You think that's a go-getter. It's not always gonna be guaranteed that that's gonna land and resonate. 

Yeah. 

So she backed it. She went with a hunch. And listen, I'll tell you what, it's uh, it's one of the few British comedies that have actually turned over a profit internationally.

Right? Yeah. 

There's a market intel for you. There's, there's an Excel stat for you. But yeah, so, um, yeah, the most sold British show of 2023, if you think about that. You've got some of the biggest distributors, some of the biggest production companies making some incredible stuff. We are this little company called Big Deal Films.

We're not little now, but you know. 

How many are you at, at the business now then? 

Uh, actually, no. So to be fair, there's, there's about six of us. It's not, it's not the biggest team. And we partner up and we partner up where need be. We bring in expertise where need be as well. Yeah. We've just had an announcement going in the trades today that, uh, we've, we've appointed Baal Samara as our exec chair.

Yes, that's right. Yeah. So, uh, so what's the thinking behind that? There's a, you know, really seasoned BBC executive. Yeah. Um, uh, I think he was, uh, was on BAFTA as well, was B BAFTA committee member, and it's, you know, a very experienced exec. Tell us, tell us about, um, sure. What the thinking about. 

So, so it starts off with relationships.

So Bow was a mentor to us. When he didn't, when he didn't need to be. So he would take time out of his day to talk to us about the business, just guide us, make sure we weren't making the wrong decisions. And that relationship just grew organically. I'd be calling him at at am in the morning saying, listen, how'd this come up?

How do you manage it? How'd you negotiate it? You know, I didn't come from a TV background per se. And, um, Thomas came from a development background. We're both learning on the job and. He gave us the right advice and he was like, okay, cool. You know, you, you really believe in what we are trying to do. You know, this is a guy that helped launch the eye player, helped launch Brick Box, launched Radio Five Live, one of the architect teams.

He's done some big stuff. He did the big co-production deals with Netflix and Discovery. So he's done some big stuff. He knows a thing or two. Right. And uh, as we were talking about our plans and our international footprint, starting with dreaming whilst black and building upon that our, our plans with working with digital talent, who we've, what we've always done, us doing more sound, us doing more audio, us doing more with audio visual.

It's like we are aligned with. We are aligned with where our direction is, what your experiences is, and um, just that operational rigor that he has. If you've ran the BBC operations and half a million, half a billion a year budget. I, I think you'll be just fine. Yeah. Helping us run big deal films, but more importantly, he believes in the vision.

He believes in the voices Bow, he's a working class guy. He didn't come from, you know, he didn't have that posh background or I say posh. He didn't come from a traditional TV background, put it that way. Yeah. And he's at BBC. He was always backing, backing talent. He was always backing the offscreen talent, creating initiatives that actually made a difference.

And I just looked at a lot of the work he was doing. Um. For charities and the philanthropic work, and I thought, okay, you know what you mean? Well, and you are, you are holding people to account. This is the kind of thing that we need to be, you know, to make big deal bigger. Yeah. So let's go on the journey.

Fantastic. Well, he's now on board and so what's next then? What's, what's, what's the next year look like for big deal films? Big deal 

films, so very exciting. Uh, we, firstly, look, we wanna be the studio that everyone comes to when they want to feel something emotionally, commercially, culturally, we wanna be the studio.

So that's where we're at and we're trying to double down on that with our output. So of course we've got dream wise black coming out second season. We've got, uh, we are doubling down on our premium unscripted content. So we've just closed the rights, um, on the Harry Dunn, uh, story and with the family there, which is really exciting.

So Harry Dunn was the boy that had, uh, been hit by Anna Es. Do you know the story? No, I don't. No. Yeah, he was a boy that got hit by a US diplomat's wife and she, she'd done it. Oh, that was 

the, the car. 

The car accident outside the, uh, the army base, wasn't it? Yes, yes. And she did a runner. She went back to the us She, she, yeah.

Escaped prosecution. It became a big worldwide story and, uh, so we've just gonna be working on that. Wow. Um, that's exciting. We are working with more onscreen talent, with working with the likes of Jay Sean. We are working more projects with, uh, Hamza Arshad. We are working on an animation series at the moment as well.

So, and what's really exciting is just expanding further into the audio visual space. You know when. It's not a play, it's a case of there's, we just see where there's audience and we see the talent that we're working with have, have footholds in those markets. And so we wanna build upon that now. So yeah, it's just head down and do the work.

And this is, this is, and you, you're talking about a. Diversifying revenue streams, aren't you there? Were you talking about, obviously you're talking about different genres of content, but Yeah. You mentioned earlier on, I think you mentioned books and, and, and, and different product. I mean, you're gonna moving into live and all of these sort of Yeah.

Revenue streams as well. Yeah, so 

when we started, everyone said to us just focus on one genre and coming from a talent management background, and my business partner Thomas. Enjoying everything. We were like, we can see there's opportunities in multiple genres. Our thing is, let's stay true to our brand and what the story is and venture out.

We were told that's a ridiculous idea. Now we're, we're BAFTA nominated in the unscripted side. We're B to win in on the scripted side. We're going into animation now we're going into audio visual, and it just felt like a natural progression and I think in the very uncertain times that the industry has had over the last two years, that strategy has certainly helped us, yeah, stay afloat during these very difficult times.

I think that there's no need to limit our. Output or box our box ourselves into just staying to one genre. And actually you can get multiple revenue streams from doing that. And how we are raising revenue is of course focusing on these genres. We also just building efficiencies within our processes. I, I think that's really key.

Yeah. And that's what the last two years have taught. Mind you, we've always been efficient with how we've run our productions. Every beat, every location, everything is scrutinized and it has to really earn its place in those budgets and stuff. And the reality is when we were starting out, we didn't get those big budgets that our peers had got.

We had to work with very little. And then you try and make it work for that. And I think that discipline and that training has helped us now in this thing. So whereas another production company might be like, look, there's no way I can do this show for X amount. Yeah, there's a chance we may, we may be able to, you may 

be able to do it, but also there may be other opportunities.

You see that from business perspective that Well, that's the thing as well. Can it 

be franchisable? Can it be relicensed? Yeah. Can we repurpose it on other platforms? Uh, how can we market it? You know, I think the 360 model is really exciting now, which is when you're coming into a show now and you're making it, you're in the edit.

Have the marketing team from the outset involved, in fact have the marketing team there when you're filming the show. Yeah. Right. And start thinking about how you can purpose that content outside of it. Number one, it's gonna be your marketing and it's gonna raise awareness for the show. What we found with Dreaming whilst Black, is when we were getting ready to do the marketing rollout, we didn't have a crazy budget.

We had our clips ready and we knew that someone needs to see something four or five times, six times before they even engage with the show. Yeah, we had our memes ready, we had our reels ready, we had the ev, you name it, the marketing play, the talent rollout. We had it all. So when you finally see the show, you are already familiar with the character, you're familiar with, uh, the nuance in white, the voice, all of the above.

So I think all of those things you 

have to really factor in now. Yeah. And last question before we come onto your story of the week then. For a new producer or a new business coming into this market, what's the one piece of advice you would give them? 

I, I'd say stay curious and I'd stay, stay collaborative.

You've got to back and also say back the talent, so. Be talent focused and backing them. Be collaborative with people that compliment your weaknesses. So if you, if you are just really the business guy, work with a creative and just see how you can marry, see how you can merge and how you can make that work there.

One thing we learned early on is we didn't collaborate enough when we started, and I think we could have got further along in the early days had we collaborated. With another studio. Now that might be, that might not be popular to say now because you'll be like, oh, they're gonna come and scoop your ip.

Have a very good lawyer, but collaborate and go f Yeah. I think you can go further along the chain with collaboration. I think that's something that I learn very quickly, 

get there faster with a bit, get there, 

get there faster. You learn a lot as well. Yeah, I think it's, and it, I, I get it. It's not the most popular thing to say and um.

But you've got, you're chasing learning curves and it can also be very lonely doing everything yourself. Uh, we, we've been there. We've been there, and I think that collaboration can take you very far. And we are collaborating even now. Um, we are collaborating with studios internationally. We are collaborating with finances.

We are collaborating with the large, with other production companies that have, have, have created value or have a value add to add to the mix. So. 

All right. Good advice. Thanks, Danny. Well, now it's time for Story of the Week where my guests get to highlight the industry new story that's caught their eye in the past seven days.

Danny, what's the story of the week? 

Story of the week that's caught my eye? Is Stephen Colbert's show being canceled? Yeah, I think there's a lot of nuance here. Is it political? Is it economics? Is it audience dwindling? And truth is I, I dunno. I dunno what the answer is, but I can see that all three elements are being discussed.

Yeah. 

And the other thing is it 

could be any of those three, but probably a combination of all three, right? Yeah. 

Probably a combination of all three. And then at the same time, do you ignore the fact that podcasting is just going through the roof and that format is very popular? And is there a world where he comes back and does a YouTube channel and launches there, and could that be just a big, I'm being glass half full?

I think that he can come back and I think he can go there and he'll, a hundred percent. Yeah. He'll go there. 

I mean, piers Morgan, right? I mean, that's a great, that's the model, isn't it? Yeah. 

And so, but I think, I'm waiting to see what the, the reason why all this is. Why, why it's been canceled, what's gone on over there?

How much is politics impacting editorial decisions now? Is that a sign of merger 

decisions? Merger politics. Okay. At a very, 

very high level. Yeah. So how that's being influenced. Is that something we should ever consider in the UK with, is that something we should be wary of? What could happen in the uk?

Um, so yeah, so I, I'm just fascinated. I know it's only just the news only just come out, so Yeah. I wanna know how it pans out. 

Yeah. Well, uh, perhaps we are slightly protected with a public service broadcast remit there a little bit, but, you know, we've seen. Lots of political pressure put on broadcasters as well over the last few years.

I'm sure that's still, uh, gonna continue, but, um, okay. So, uh, Stephen Culbert story of the Week. Who's your hero of the week? Danny 

Hero of the Week. I'll have to say Warp Films. 

Okay. 

I'll say what films, uh, what they did with adolescence was brilliant and, uh, the impact they've had. Uh, socially. Now you're probably thinking, why am I mentioning that now?

When it came out two, three months ago? They've scooped so many Emmy nominations. It's such a proud moment as a Brit. Yeah. Putting the best of British content on the map content that has, I don't wanna say entertained 'cause I don't, I didn't find the show entertaining. I find it engaging. Mm-hmm. 

It 

made me think and um, I think it's such a great call card for globally, for what British content really is about and the best of British.

And I think the cast, Ashley Walters is a friend of ours, a big deal, very happy for him. He's put 25 years into the business. So to me, he's a hero for what he represents to, uh, a lot of creatives and walk films as well. You know, they're, we are working with them on a, on a project and they're just great people and it's nice to see the good guys.

Yeah. 

Not 

finish last, 

the good guys win at last. Yeah. Yeah. 

Yeah. And they're winners anyway for, for the impact they've made. Within government, within society, the conversations they've had, they've probably saved some kids in the process. So they're my heroes. 

Okay. Yeah. Impactful. Impactful show. Um, and then finally, Danny, what are you telling to get in the bin?

Sky, kids Sky, uh, cutting their children's commissioning. 

Right. 

I don't like that news.

No, I don't. I don't like that news. Have they 

pulled out completely? I didn't. I didn't see that 

story. Certainly the commissioning team. Being relieved. Right. And they're not, they've said they're not commissioning new TV shows. And I think that's a shame. I don't put that on the head commissioner. I think there's probably, maybe there's an economic decision there.

I don't know. But the loser in that will be kids and the variety of content that they'll see, I think that's, that's a shame. I think at the moment, CBBC are the, one of the, they're the leading kids, uh, broadcaster over here and they're doing a fantastic job. But I think that you need that variety and, um, I think children's programming is, is getting less and less, uh, commissioned and.

I worry. 

Okay. So l less com kids commissioning can go in the bin. Yeah. Alright, Danny, thank you so much for coming on TellyCast. It's been brilliant chatting with you and, uh, all the best with big deal. I'm, I'm sure you don't need much luck. You've got amazing team there. You've had amazing success so far.

So long way that continue. Thank you for having me. Cheers. It's been a pleasure. Well, that's about it for this week's show and indeed for this season of TellyCast, we're taking August off to prepare for a very big last quarter of the year with lots of exciting developments coming up for TellyCast in the digital first base, including the launch of our new digital bootcamp training course.

You'll hear more about that and all our other developments here and on the drop@dropmedia.co uk. Make sure you subscribe to the Drop newsletter too. We'll be back in September with a new season of TellyCast. Until then, have a great summer and stay safe.