Kimmel, C4 CEO search, BBC's Reform coverage, Baywatch reboot and is C5 losing it's way?

This week on TellyCast, Justin Crosby is joined by writer, producer and cultural commentator Stephen Arnell. With a career spanning Sky Arts, BritBox, ITV and bylines in The Guardian, The New Statesman and The Spectator, Stephen has seen the TV industry from every angle.

In this episode we dive into the big media stories of the week, from the Baywatch reboot and the search for Channel 4’s next CEO, to Jimmy Kimmel’s clash with Trump, the BBC’s coverage of Reform UK and the future of Channel 5 under Paramount. Stephen shares sharp insights on what these shifts mean for broadcasters, audiences and the future of television.

TellyCast is the media industry’s podcast – exploring the latest trends, formats and business stories shaping the global TV and social video landscape.

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Transcript

Justin Crosby: [00:00:00] Step into the world of digital first production. At Next Wave, the brand new summit launching in Halla, Germany. This October documentary Campus Presents Next Wave, the Digital first production Summit at Industry Training Day, curated by me Justin Crosby. Next Wave brings together innovators and decision makers driving today's digital first production economy Sessions will explore launching successful YouTube channels, moving from TV to digital production, monetizing catalog content, transforming broadcast content for streaming platforms, building brand partnerships, and navigating the new world of commissioning.

Next Wave is part of the documentary campus industry training days alongside the renowned master school. Pitching event, creating a powerful space where filmmakers and executives connect, exchange ideas and unlock market ready opportunities. Join us in Halla Germany on [00:01:00] October the 31st and November the first.

Register now@documentaryhyphencampus.com. That's documentary campus.com.

Hi, I'm Justin Crosby and welcome to another TellyCast On this week's show, I'm joined by Steven Ane Steven's won just about every hat you can think of in tv. He's a writer, producer, and he's got credits including Bob Foss for of Guy Arts. He's a broadcast and streaming consultant who's worked with platforms like Bri Box, and he's a cultural commentator with bylines in the new statesman.

Spectator, the Guardian, the independent digital spine, many more. He's also a novelist with one book already published and the second one just finished, and a regular media and cultural pundit on radio and podcasts and occasional lecturer at the University of Westminster. And before all of that, it was controller of ICV three [00:02:00] ICV four, as well as head of digital channel development at ITV.

Stephen Ane, welcome to TellyCast. How you doing? 

Stephen Arnell: Oh, very well. Thank you Justin. 

Justin Crosby: Thank you for interrupting your Cornish holiday to, uh, to come on the show. 

Stephen Arnell: Well, more of a working holiday, actually. Not so much a holiday itself, but, uh, 

Justin Crosby: yes, 

Stephen Arnell: thank 

Justin Crosby: you. Oh, good. All right. I feel less guilty now then. Um, so, uh, so this week we're gonna, uh, do, uh, a slightly different show this week, uh, to our normal show where we are gonna.

Kinda run through five different news stories that you've chosen and you know, have a chat through them and what they mean to the industry because there's a lot of upheaval and there's a lot of news at the moment that's having quite a fundamental impact, I think, on television as we know it and, and some perhaps that have less of an impact.

We're gonna start with the one that's got less of an impact probably, but it's pretty interesting. Is the news this week that Baywatch is coming back. What do you make of that? 

Stephen Arnell: Well, it's what the world's been [00:03:00] waiting for, I guess. But it's, it's, yeah, I, I, I remember as I said earlier to you, that I did comment to World one on this last year and nothing's seemed to move since then.

But yeah, I suppose that things now nineties is, is very retro and people are very much into the nineties. Uh, so I read, so I guess it's time for Bay. What should be Revisited? We've had 9 0 2 1 oh Melrose Place and probably quite a few others. From the era, so why not? But I think they gotta handle it with slightly more careful hands bearing in mind that, you know, it can't really replicate this sort of cheesy aspect of it that, uh, that was so popular then.

Or maybe they can with Trump in the White House. Maybe let's all full steam back to 1993. 

Justin Crosby: Well, it wasn't it the cheese that made it work though. I mean, obviously, obviously there are certain format points that really made it work. 

Stephen Arnell: I think, wasn't it one of those shows that was supposed to be, that it's for da for, for the daddies to be watching it, you know, five o'clock on a Saturday or, or I remember there was a movie where the, where um, I think it was [00:04:00] Spy Game with Robert Redford while the people who were funding his, the break into China were watching, um, Baywatch at the time and getting very exhilarated by that, if you recall.

Yeah, to your point. I admit. But yes, uh, I think. I think that, I mean, you could think, oh, well, let's do it in a completely sort of. A periodic way. 'cause Son of the Beach, the series, if you remember that, I think I played it on IB four at one point. It was very rude, uh, takedown of the series and there was an awful movie with a, with Dwayne Johnson in it.

So you could go that way. But I think they're probably trying and huge to more, well it was never serious, but a more sort of dramatic version of it. But I, of course I could be wrong. 

Justin Crosby: Well, let's, you know, just take a, a step back a minute and look at this. As a franchise. I mean, obviously it's, it's, you know, it's a really popular fast channel, uh, across, uh, yeah.

Uh, connected TV on different services. Um, and you know, when, when it was at its peak, it was reaching over a billion viewers, we could, it was. 

Stephen Arnell: Syndicated, wasn't it? It was never on, on a, as I [00:05:00] recall, it was not a channel in the States. It was a syndicated bro. I might be wrong again. And of course, as you said it, and there were also spinoffs, like Baywatch Nights where Mitch, uh, was a private detective when he wasn't on his surfboard.

I mean, he was a busy LA though. 

Justin Crosby: Um, and there's talk about them possibly shooting in Australia to, uh, to cash in on those, uh, tax credits potentially. 

Stephen Arnell: Yeah. So I mean, it could be a, it could be a sort of division of Baywatch, uh, people sent from California to Australia that might make an interesting sort of mashup, the culture clash or not.

It's, it's, I 

Justin Crosby: mean, certainly isn't this just, you know, uh, we are, we are looking at, uh, uh, uh, traditional broadcasters. Yeah. And, you know, uh, they've always been risk averse. Of course, you know, there's a lot of money involved in these productions. Yeah. And it seems like there's, there's fewer bets more than ever.

You know, the le less of an interest to create new brands and new franchises. 

Stephen Arnell: Yeah. And if you own, if you own the ip, you think, oh, we've gotta use it. Really. I think [00:06:00] that's part of the thing, especially Fox thinking, what have we got? What can we get from the vaults and reuse or reboot rather. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. Yeah. But it isn't, it just sort of symptomatic, you know, that, that now broadcast TV is less.

Willing to take a risk on anything new. And therefore isn't, isn't this sort of fueling their death spiral really? Because, you know, it's, it's, it's just the same old, same old. 

Stephen Arnell: Yeah. But sometimes, I mean, Berger seem to work for, for, um, you and drama as it's called now. I think it's, um, some things do spark a a and it's not.

A clone of the old show so they can work. I mean it is a bit depressing I that the 40 towers tribute to two hour program, I think that's another you drama that's coming out. I mean it's, that is virtue a clone of two episodes you think? Well, I could just watch those on wherever they are I play if they're on that or where it's somewhere else.

That seems a bit super, but I suppose, you know, they, they own the ip, why not use it? Someone's gonna do Baywatch at one point and they might as well do [00:07:00] it themselves without selling the IP to someone else. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah, yeah. Well that's gonna be, uh, casting is gonna be key in that, isn't it? Well, you 

Stephen Arnell: could see, um, God, I've forgotten his name, Mitch Mitch's character.

He could be the grandfather. Yeah. Coming back the half. The half, of course. And her, Pam Anderson could come back as well at one point. She's a serious actress nowadays, so you know that she could be introducing the new, the new kids on the block, so to speak. But, uh, it's difficult. I, I always, you know, I wasn't a religious watcher.

I remember there was always a bold bloke on it. I mean, he's, I think he's dead now, actually, sorry to say. But that was about the only thing I, I didn't sort of, you know, make an appointment to view. Yeah. Or maybe I did, but I'm not gonna say it anyway. But it was not something. That was particularly character driven.

They weren't really, you know, they weren't distinctive people. So it's a blank slate really, I suppose. As long as they keep the red costumes and a version of the music, hopefully they don't really tamper with that. 'cause I really don't like it when they, they, they muck around with the theme tunes. I think they did that with Van de Volk.

They just had a snatch of the original tune and it [00:08:00] slightly irritates me. But 

Justin Crosby: yeah, just 

Stephen Arnell: me. 

Justin Crosby: Well, well, you know, the, the original creators are on board, Michael Burke, Greg Bonham, and, uh, Doug Schwartz. So, uh, so, you know, brains Trust. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's, uh, so, you know, that's gonna be really interesting franchise to watch.

It 

Stephen Arnell: could be spun completely on its head. You, but I, I suspect not by, if it's the original creators, but you could see it being something rather more interesting, but, uh, fingers crossed. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, let's, let's move on to something. Slightly more impactful and important for the UK TV industry. And that's the search for Channel Four's, new CEO.

And there's a story in deadline this week where they've sort of leaked the job description for the new CEO. And it's obviously a really pivotal moment for Channel four as it as it accelerates its shift to become a digital first public service streamer by 2030. Which obviously only five years away, cloning their linear [00:09:00] channels and uh, still potentially moving their hq.

I mean their HQ is officially in Leeds, but there still seems to be a lot of people in London. I dunno what's happening. They were talking about selling horse railroad as well. Yeah. But, uh, haven't seen any updates on that, but, um, so, um, yeah, channel four CEO search. Steven, what do you, what do you make of the, the sort of person that's gonna take on this role?

What, uh, what, what are the key attributes they're gonna need? Well. 

Stephen Arnell: Yeah, I mean I, I was, I read the same article as well and I thought it was slightly sort of everything's youth. I thought channel four, I know it has a remit to connect with youth, but it's not totally youth driven. It is a public service broadcaster.

So that, as an oldster that slightly annoys me that it's, everything has to be youth driven. They seem to be. Slightly sort of taking to task the Ian Katz matton regime by saying to reconnect with audiences. I mean, that, that might be something they always feel they have to say in, in, in these recruitment drives or these, uh, things.

But it struck me as a slightly, uh, a slap [00:10:00] across the wrist. For Mr. Katz, uh, in particular that they were feeling that they hadn't really driven that side of it by reconnecting with audiences or providing standout material unless you count Bonnie Blue and my massive, uh, appendage. Uh, so I think there's something.

I, well, I think most of the industry would regard not in cats, 'cause he's, he's not, he's the head of creative, uh, content. But there, there, there needs to be a rejig in a way of, of the, from the previous regime, which was a long lasting one. If you think about it was what, from 2017 onwards? Hmm. Was, was the KAZ and regime.

So it seems to be a slight sort of, I wouldn't say rebuttal, but a. Uh, trying to ease it away from those years, but every new regime has to be, you won't say, well, we'll just do the same as you did previously. So has to be expected. 

Justin Crosby: Well, I think there's been so much change and, and, and, and channel four have been the leading public service broadcaster that's, you know, really taken on [00:11:00] the challenges that the, the new.

Creator landscape is, uh, as posed for traditional TV and with Channel 4.0 and, uh, you know, that's starting to re really show, have some success. And, um, and a lot of the content that they're showing on their YouTube channel and, and various different social channels is bringing them new. Viewers as opposed to this, you know, cannibalizing their reviews, which I think is a, is a worry for a lot of other broadcasters, but I think they're sort of proving that that's not the case.

I mean, so, you know, they've really grasped this forward and, and you know, it's been a key way to deliver on one of their key public service broadcasting remits, which is to reach that young audience. Yeah. And basically young audiences are not watching Lydia Telly anymore, so they're doing the right thing.

Stephen Arnell: I think as well, a lot of journalism in, in broadcast is focused, still focused on linear tv, where Channel four hasn't been really punching, particularly punching through particularly [00:12:00] hard. And the successes, and I will admit to those that in YouTube and other things are pushed aside to a degree. So there seems to be still, you know, not so much, but an overnight obsession and seeing what we did, you know, what happened last, you know, the previous evening, so.

I, to a degree, I think Cat should be given a small amount of credit for that. But otherwise people are still looking at those big shows that punch through and get the audiences. And if your successes are shows like Bonnie Blue, it does tend to tarnish, in my opinion, the channel as a whole and it's offshoots.

Justin Crosby: Well, one of the key, uh, one of the key challenges is, and one of the challenges being put forward in the job description is re-imagining the business model amid. Declining ad revenues and that's, you know, that sort of signals a certain amount of structural change, maybe, you know, uh. Potential further redundancies the way that they operate.

I mean, there's been a lot of talk and you know, coming from, well, certainly in the wake of the [00:13:00] recent Ofcom report, that their encouraging public service broadcasters to start to. Partner up and work a bit closer together than they have done. I mean, do you see that as inevitable that they're gonna have to, you know, potentially merge or work together much closer than they have before in, in the face of not only creator economy challenges and the whole attention economy, but also obviously streamers like Netflix and some prime?

Stephen Arnell: I think you, yeah, I think that's on the horizon, but it's. Well then we're go back to the 1950s and it's IDV and BBC and ITV plus Channel four and Channel five in one, in one organization. Although saying that Channel five are owned now by Paramount, so it's unlikely that they will, they will be subsumed into a, into a commercial tv.

Giant or rather larger than it is now. Uh, also of course, that Channel four have now been got permission to make their own programs and be a producer. Now, will they be selling programs to other channels as a BBC can do [00:14:00] and it ITV studios do? That might be, I dunno how much revenue that will generate considering.

There's only around a hundred million. It sounds a lot in the bank to provide for an independent, independent productions if that, but that could be something that takes off that they could eventually be selling programs to other broadcasters, but even then. It's never gonna be enough money really to do, to, to, to get outta the stranglehold of, of, uh, TV advertising.

Hmm. 

Justin Crosby: Well, let's have a look at, uh, some of the runners and riders. Then we've got, uh, Jane Turtin, uh, all three media. We've got Julian Bellamy from ITV Studios, Alison Lomax, uh, from YouTube and Jay Hunt, who's now a Apple obviously. So, you know, there, there are some major names as you expect being connected with this.

I mean, what, what do you think? Is the ideal CV for a new CEO of, of channel four? I mean, do they need to come from a streamer or a social media background? Do you think [00:15:00] considering, considering Channel four's, you know, future as a, uh, as a digital first broadcaster? 

Stephen Arnell: You'd think YouTube would be the obvious background in YouTube might be the obvious choice.

Um, and also, but also money as well. I think money has been a factor, unfortunately in a lot of these hires that, uh, is playing the headlines as well. So whether, um. Jay Hunt would wanna leave Apple, which I assume she's extremely well remunerative at for the hassle of being the CEO of, of Channel four, which is a job which she should have got, or may according to some people should have got last time.

Whether she wants to go back there either as an, you know, as, as returning in Triumph or as a sort of, well, I got the, in the end, I don't know. Um, so personally, Julie Bellamy is a steady pair of hands. I'd have thought he'd be okay, but. Has he shown that sort of, you know, they want the next, the next iteration.

I think someone from a YouTube background is probably the way to go, but can they afford it? I mean, there was a lot, a lot of money. I think Alex Ham owned over with bonuses over a million [00:16:00] pounds. Which Republic Service broadcast is for me is slightly shaming. Shaming in a way You. Do you need that money Really on top of everything else.

But, um, I, that's what I would go for. I think if you're gonna be brave, go for the bravest choice, which would be someone with from YouTube. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. But that then again, if you are working for YouTube and you are a senior exec at YouTube, you know, you've got very little regulation. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, you've got, you know, you've got the power of, uh, one of the biggest companies in the world, uh, behind you.

You've got, you know, taking on. Channel four CEO role. It comes with enormous amount of political baggage. And, uh, you know, it, it's, it's, it's kind of like, in many ways it sounds ridiculous, but who would want it? Or, you know, certainly that sort of level of executive with, 

Stephen Arnell: which is why I think you are, you're correct.

I think it would go to someone from the more traditional television who it's a sort of, it's, I mean like side being B, b, C, [00:17:00] dg, it's one of those roles that if you've done that. That's on your cv. It is. It's a big achievement. So I guess backtracking completely, I guess someone like. Maybe Julian Bellamy who's sort of, you know, he is been familiar in the industry for a long time, but it has, maybe he's hit his light under a bush and I think obviously he was at channel four before, so that would be something that that might, that might be appealing and something the less drama aspect as well.

Might work as well this time. 

Justin Crosby: Oh, right. You are, you, you are putting him as firm front runner then, are you, Steve? 

Stephen Arnell: I wouldn't, I, I Jane Turt as well. Yeah. But I think, yeah, I think Julian, because he's the corporate background as well, so he is not, he hasn't been running an indie way. He's been coining in so much money.

It'd be, it'd be rather foolish to leave. So, yeah, I mean that's my. Of the runners now, I think, yeah, I think YouTube would the ideal one, but they probably wouldn't wanna go for the job. So maybe Julian? Yeah. Mm. 

Justin Crosby: Okay. Alright, so third story of this week's [00:18:00] show. Jimmy Kimmel is on everybody's lips, obviously he's just made a return to late night TV in the states.

After a, a, a pause for, uh, how long was it? Was it a week? Not even now. Was it? I think it was 

Stephen Arnell: only, it was just, it was last, well it was a Sunday that he was, and he was gonna return on Monday or Tuesday. Dunno whether he has a full week nowadays, but it's only a week or so. It can't be much more, much more than that.

So, yeah. 

Justin Crosby: It's pretty, it's, it's been a pretty successful PR exercise, I think, um, for him. Well, 

Stephen Arnell: he won't be in, in quarterly, the two of the affiliates won't be transmitting him. I dunno what they'll be doing instead. So potentially a quarter of his audience. That won't be there. But on the other hand, I don't think those, those states were the particularly big viewers of Kimmel where, where it was transmitted anyway.

Um, and I did read yesterday, but I think it was Evan Shapiro said, why didn't they just put it on Hulu or Disney Plus anyway? And he, that he can do what he wants and he doesn't get the, the FCC. Breathing down his neck. 

Justin Crosby: Hmm. Yeah. Well that's, that's [00:19:00] true. But I think they did that anyway. It did go out on, uh, live on Hulu as well as well, that's wrong for Shapira then.

Don't blame me. Yeah. I mean, so, so let's, you know, let's take a step back and think about, you know, this is free speech issue, isn't it? And um, so it was pulled as a background, if, I'm sure everybody is aware of this, but obviously it was pulled from a, b, c after his inflammatory comments about Charlie Kirk's.

Killer, which, you know, sparked that heated debate. And then FCC intervention and the FCC chair, which is the, the Federal Communications Commission chair, Brendan Carr, who's, uh, who's basically a Trump appointee. 

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Justin Crosby: You know, he made some, uh, comments that, that, you know, sounded like they were, they were gonna come after him.

And then obviously it's my way 

Speaker 4: or the highway, wasn't it? Yeah. Was, it was an easy way or the hard way to do this. Yeah. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. And so, yeah, so Disney owned a, b, c paused the show amid, amidst pressure from station groups like [00:20:00] Nexstar and, and Sinclair, as you mentioned, that, um, many of those affiliates haven't run the show again.

It, it broadcast again for the first time. On Wednesday night, which is the 23rd of September, and as you say, there's still a quarter of those affiliates who are still not running the show. So yeah, I mean there's, there's been a big celebrity backlash hasn't there, from Hollywood? 

Stephen Arnell: Yeah, I think again, there's trouble is they build it into some sort of Spartacus moment.

He, I mean, he's a very well paid, um, entertainer. His comments. There. I mean, I, I wouldn't agree with Trump in any regard, but I think he could have thought his comments through better because with the information coming in, 'cause the implication in the part in, in the MAGA supporters was that he was saying that one of them was, was with the shooter.

But even then, I think it was, it was. Slightly ill judged and I, I, and it's the rumble with from the left and I'm count myself a member of the left, is that we can sometimes come across as rather too smug [00:21:00] or too, uh, patronizing to to other people, even though it might be well deserved. So I think it's probably, I saw some of the highlights with, uh, Robert De De Niro playing ahead of the SCC and I think yeah, good.

A good comeback. He didn't sort of cringe. He did give a sort of apology, but I think just in a way. Is it best to ignore Trump or, or to keep going on over him? Because South Park have got, uh, doing, uh, ratings have gone increased incredibly by going after Trump. But in some ways is it better just to, just to put him out your mind for a while.

But on the other hand, he just gets, does so much ridiculous stuff that you can't ignore him. I mean, that's a problem. Well, 

Justin Crosby: he, he, he is so, so. From a bus. It, like, unlike any other president, he's, he's got his fingers so deeply into television and into entertainment. 'cause he's obviously being part of this industry for, for years.

Yeah. And, and you know the, obviously there was a recent, uh, recently there was the Paramount and [00:22:00] Skydance merger. Yeah. Which Stephen Colbert was a, uh, some would say he was a victim of that as well. And, uh, there, there's a reported 20. I think it, was it $20 million worth of free? Yeah. A free airtime. Uh, as part of that deal being waived through, they were gonna give to the government, which, uh, which is kind of, uh, interesting in, we'll see.

We'll see. That's, uh, uh, I, we'll see what the trades say about that, you know, but 

Stephen Arnell: anti paracetamal adverts and things like that, which is a new, a new crazy person. Yeah. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, Kim will. So he, the, the, I think the main headline that came out of his return was he was criticizing these threats from Trump as anti-American.

Yeah. Um, and, you know, this is this, you know, free speech, this, you know, political discourses now. So toxic across, particularly across the states, but also across the uk. And we'll come on to talk about a more UK focused [00:23:00] story in a second. 

Stephen Arnell: Yeah. I mean, it is not totally just the left reacting against it.

We've had Tucker Carson and Ted Cruz, uh, uh, saying that siding, if not with, with, uh, uh, with Kim himself, but against the principles of, of f the FC interfering so much. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. I mean, but, but overall, I mean. You, you mentioned earlier, you know, shouldn't we just ignore him? Uh, or should, should American Talk show ho host ignore him.

They can't, can they? I mean, he's so powerful and he's getting so he's in involved, he's in 

Stephen Arnell: everyone's lives. You wake up and there's always something about Trump. So unless you don't pay any attention to the news whatsoever, unfortunately he's in, in everyone's face. Really? 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. And 

Stephen Arnell: I know he probably would hate being ignored.

Obviously he, he loves the publicity, but it's very difficult to do it. 'cause without saying, you're not doing your, your job in following what he's up to. 

Justin Crosby: Mm-hmm. Well, he is, he's tweeted, uh, or I shouldn't say, he tweeted obviously his own, [00:24:00] uh, his own social media platform through social. He came out and said his quote was, something happened between then and now because his audience is gone.

Capital letters and his talent inverted commas was never there. And he also threatened to. Uh, this is quote test a, b, c out on this. So he's, uh, he's not taking it lying down by the sounds of it. Trump. Yeah. But, uh, but then again, you know, is it just bluster? He's, you know, that's his style, isn't it? Bluster?

Stephen Arnell: Well, you, that was his first term was more bluster. This one, he is bringing a cudgel. He's bringing a, he's being a gun to a knife fight, as they say. Mm-hmm. Because he really has been backing try. Or if it doesn't succeed, it, he's at least been trying, because now he's not surrounded by. Relatively sane people.

He is got all his acolytes with them, so 

Speaker 3: you 

Stephen Arnell: know, they are, they wanna push through everything and if they don't succeed the first time you get an imp you get an impression they'll try again anyway. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. Well it's, uh, it's good to see Kimmel back on the air. Yeah. I think as a, as a whole. So, you know, I think it was [00:25:00] slightly clumsy.

The, the, the way that he actually expressed himself. Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, there we are. There we are. That's, yeah. Yeah. So that is Kimmel and sort of moving over to a, a slightly connected issue in the UK is you've highlighted, you want us to chat about BBC's reform coverage and there's, you know, there's a lot of discussion around undue profile that, uh, the reform is getting.

Yeah. With only having four mps. I mean, what's, what's, what's your point here, Steven? 

Stephen Arnell: Well, I mean, again, it's, it's not just myself. Obviously. There's been a lot of people have commenting about the, the actual, the sort of the deluge of coverage we have of Farage and, and and reform. Yes, the polls reflect their current popularity, but as I said to you earlier that back in 2010, the Lib Dems were on 33% approval or for voting rather, uh, currently reform around around 34%.

Now, I don't recall. Back in 2010, and I was certainly conscious at that point that whether there was [00:26:00] any, that the amount of publicity and airtime devoted to lib de So I know we had, when it was Nick Clegg was in charge, there was a lot of, you know, people at that brief period, people supporting him saying, I agree with Nick, but it didn't translate to this huge amount of coverage where virtually every politics program, certainly on the BBC, seems to be, have a, a, an oversized representation of reform.

And very, and I think the conference was, was played the other day with very little, um, anything commentary on it. When, when they were basically saying, well, they, what they wanted, which they can in the conference, but there was no one saying, well, this obviously is, is factually incorrect, or, uh, anything like that.

It was just done purely without filter. Mm-hmm. And I think that's, that's to many people, uh, it's strange. Well, I was gonna say strange, but when you consider that Robbie Gibb. John McAndrew were high up at the bbc. And, and, and BBC McAndrews, the director of, uh, programs of b BBC News, were both [00:27:00] affiliated in some way with, with, uh, GB News, who's broadcast arm, dare I say it, of Reform Party.

It's not that surprising, but it, it, it's, for me, it's very irritating. 

Justin Crosby: Well, I had a look onto the BBC website at BBC. Complaints page and, uh, and had a look through the, the complaints that have been made and, and they've, they've got a, a response and we've, we've given this to the wonderful 11 labs AI service.

And, and this is, this is what it's, it's reading out for you now, the, the BBC's response. Let's take a listen. 

Speaker 5: BBC News is committed to providing our audiences with fair and impartial coverage of all relevant political parties. Whenever we invite representatives of any political party to take part in our coverage, we are careful to ensure that views are appropriately challenged and analyzed over an appropriate period of time.

Our editorial guidelines make it clear that evidence of past [00:28:00] electoral support and current electoral support should be taken into account in making judgements about appropriate levels of coverage and prominence. Traditional voting patterns across Britain have been shifting, providing a challenge to established political parties, especially labor and the conservatives.

At the 2017 general election, those two parties combined one more than 80% of the vote at last year's general election, that figure was well below 60% current opinion polls put their combined support at near a 40% across Great Britain. During the last year or so, reform uk, formerly the Brexit party, appear to have been the main beneficiary of this shift.

Our assessments of past electoral support include both representation, IE, how many mps are elected, and also vote share IE. How many people actually vote for a party overall? [00:29:00] Although they have four mps currently Reform UK won more than 4 million votes in the 2024 general election, making them the third largest party in terms of vote share.

More than 14% behind labor and the conservatives, but ahead of the liberal Democrats who nevertheless returned more than 70 mps. In the 2025 English local elections in May Reform, UK won a majority of 10 councils plus two mayoral contests securing more votes across England than any other party. An estimated national share of above 30%.

On the same day, reform UK won a parliamentary by-election in Runcorn and Helsby with nearly 39% of the vote in that constituency. Assessing current electoral support includes an obligation to take into account legitimate opinion polls, especially where there are robust and consistent trends as measured by voting intention polls [00:30:00] conducted by members of the British Polling Council.

All such surveys fully conducted since the May elections, a total of more than 90 consecutive polls indicate that Reform UK are ahead of all other parties across Britain. During August, the party's polling average across 17 opinion polls from a range of companies increased to 30% ahead of labor, 21%. The conservatives 18%, the liberal Democrats, 14%, and the green party 9%.

Recently Reform UK announced its immigration strategy and we considered many people who had voted for the party or say they intend voting for it, would be interested in seeing the proposals. However, BBC news hasn't simply reported on the strategy. We have also provided political analysis, scrutinized its spokespeople, and heard from many individuals and parties across the [00:31:00] political spectrum, including the government providing a wide range of views on the issue.

With regards to Nigel Farage, he is an elected member of Parliament and leader of a political party with clear evidence of significant electoral support. Many political analysts across the media with different political perspectives report that Reform UK are making the political weather. In other words, the reactions and policies of the other political parties can only be properly understood in the context of knowing what is happening with Reform UK and its increased level of support.

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Justin Crosby: So, Steven, what'd you make of that then? I mean, that's, that's fair enough, isn't it? I think that's a, that's a very straight bat. 

Stephen Arnell: Could have been written by Richard Te that could have been, I mean, define appropriate, which is the key word I [00:32:00] found in that what's appropriate.

Um. Also, again, as I said back in 2010, I, the STP, and I'm old enough to remember them in the eighties, they weren't sort of hailed the, the same way and devoted so much coverage and they were sort of, they were really doing well, as I recall, in, in, in the polls, uh, in sort of 83 around that period. Anyway, but I, I think that's.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way that if that's the coverage they base, because 'cause they're leading so much, there's not enough scrutiny really. I mean, we had Angela Rain's, uh, mortgage concerns, but there, there's similar things happening and I know we have to judge ourselves legally. There's questions raised in, in cla in his, uh, Claton residence for, for Arj.

And I can't recall that the papers or anyone else devoting quite so much, uh, attention to that. And I know he isn't a minister, but we are basically, it's not housing 

Justin Crosby: minister. 

Stephen Arnell: Well, it's true, but Yeah. But I'm not patting for either for Angela Rainer, but I think the case is, is that they, they, they're recording them so much.[00:33:00] 

Coverage. And yes, and the, and the British people believe this, but we don't really know because we know that for me, the reform is replicating a lot of Trump, the Trumpian techniques in, in broadcasting messages, which weren't need to be really analyzed and not just, uh, sent out there and let and left to linger.

And I, I do, and I'm afraid that, as I said, if the BBC, some of the senior people, which we, uh, we heard before Robbie Gibb and John John McAndrew have. You know, been affiliated or worked for, uh, GB News, which is not where Nigel Far has a nightly show. So I'm, I'm very, very wary and I that explanation. Deeply, uh, milk toast and milk toast even, uh, in what it was doing.

I, I th I think that, I mean, I imagine going back, and I don't wanna do analogies too much, or comparisons, but in the early thirties in Germany, you, you'd probably hear something similar if you had this, the Weimar Republic saying, oh, Mr. Hitler's, you know, you've got a good level of support, you know, you've gotta draw a line somewhere.

But, uh, 

Justin Crosby: [00:34:00] well, I mean, okay, so, so Steve, I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. Yeah. Aren't you guilty? And many people in the TV industry, uh, guilty and many people in London, very guilty because London and the, the, the media industry is naturally left-leaning. Yeah. And you know, this is one of the things that people in the nations and regions have different views and they're experiencing Britain in a different way to people in London.

And this is one of the things that, you know, I think. I mean, you could say perhaps, you know, people not being listened to in uh, outside London was one of the reasons why Brexit happened. And, you know, this is possibly the same here. I mean, obviously, you know, 95% of people within the TV industry and uh, uh, and the media industry as a whole are left-leaning.

So, you know, is it worth sort of standing back a little bit and thinking, actually, you know [00:35:00] what, they are incredibly popular. With people. Farage is probably the most charismatic politician in the UK right now. Well, define 

Stephen Arnell: charisma. I mean, well, 

Justin Crosby: yeah. Yeah. But, but pop, okay. Well, let's say popular, right? I mean, he is popular, there's no doubt about that.

Yeah. And, and, and his, his party's popular. Uh, it's polling really highly as we heard from that statement. So. You know, I think he de deserves to be heard, but also deserves to be scrutinized. And I think, I think BBC Verify have done a pretty good job of that on the BBC news website and, and other bulletins.

So, yeah, I mean it's a, it's, this is something that's gonna go on and on and on, isn't it, isn't it, it it by a lot of people and, and you know, it's gonna be a lot of people very vocal who just don't agree with the reforms saying, oh, he is only got four mps. He's getting too much profile. But I think, you know, there is.

A, a much bigger and more substantial reason why he's getting that, that profile. Well, it, to 

Stephen Arnell: me, it sounds like the b BBC are [00:36:00] preparing themselves for, for having a reformed government. You know, they're, they're, they're hedging their bets as always, and, and also it's, um, the thing about. Yeah, I quite agree with you about this sort of the, the, but if you remember the, the fishermen and the people of Wales and other countries that be, or other parts of the UK that benefited from the eus subsidies and that, but were convinced by Faroh and his gang that, that they had to leave the EU now are suffering for it.

If these things could have explained better to people at the time, we wouldn't have had this resurgence in support for people like Farris at all. So I think, I'm not blaming the people who back him, but I think there was a core failure of people, certainly around the referendum to explain the consequences of voting for Brexit, which have been.

Disastrous. I think most people admit they've damaged the economy and the people who really needed the, the subsidies and the, the infrastructure in places like Wales, Scotland, and so on, they're being withdrawn there. I think they're on court of what they used to be, despite Boris [00:37:00] Johnson promising to funnel money in.

So I, as I said, I'm torn between, I do agree with you, but the thing is. It's a problem with the political classes. They didn't explain what people would be losing. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it's, without going too much down the political route, there's certainly been a succession of governments in the last 20, 30 years who have been pretty ineffective a number of different ways.

And, and fortunately this one, one year in it's been a bit of a disaster so far. But, um, anyway, let's, let's move on. Let's. Let's, uh, yeah, let's not turn into a political podcast 

Speaker 3: fast. Yeah. 

Justin Crosby: Um, yeah, our last story we're gonna talk about is Channel five, and obviously a lot being going on with Channel five recently in terms of, you know, it's, it's obviously now under what you might say a Trump friendly Yeah.

Management, uh, at uh, at Paramount, and there's lots of things going on. Piers Morgan's back on there. 

Stephen Arnell: That seemed to be a very early sign. And Sarah Rose, who was the head of Paramount in UK and Channel five, leaving in quick [00:38:00] succession to run the Royal charity for the Prince and Princess of Wales. It struck me as quite fortunate again that she could leave left at that time.

'cause I think the, the fallout or what may, I'm not saying it will happen to channel five. Under this sort of Trumpian influences, it is difficult to figure out. I mean, we've got the NFL on now, which is what, 40 or four hours of Sunday night tv. And my colleagues, former colleagues, and I won't say from where we, we've been commenting on this, uh, it's putting in 150,000 viewers.

I mean that for four hours of prime time evening viewing. That seems rather strange, that they could commit to, to this block of American programming. But. You know, I don't know the precise reason, but it strikes me that Channel five previously, uh, channel of the year or, or not, channel Year at the moment, it seems to be in an odd position now because if it's sort of bending itself to more American Star program, it will probably lose maybe a, quite a bit of the audience's got already who, like the, in the intrinsically indigenous English programming, you know, the [00:39:00] dramas from Ridge is great and small, and the Cozy crime and the travel s it seems to me.

Strange mish master, but the NFL occupying the channel that really specializes in, uh, you know, cozy crime, as I said, and travel logs. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. Well, well let's talk about NFL coverage. So it was obviously, you know, it was a bit of a coup that they, they scored that deal to, to, to bring NFL free to air in the UK on Sunday evenings.

But yeah, a bit of a. Did you say ratings disaster? I mean, was, well, this 

Stephen Arnell: is, this is from, purely from, from my, my one of whom has access to Barb figures the, as well, and just commented yesterday that it was all channels. I think were on, on maybe on Sunday night we're doing particularly appalling, but Channel five itself, can it afford to take such a hit for such a huge chunk of programming for advertisers themselves.

It's not, it's ad fund, it's still a channel to have dragging around 150,000 viewers, which is. An okay [00:40:00] audience for a digital channel O only. Okay. So to have that as, as your Sunday night viewing when they could be catalyzing again on having some, another sort of, uh, uh, uh, a cozy crime drama or something of their ilk on there.

It strikes me as not a great, great strategy. 

Justin Crosby: Mm-hmm. Well, it came under fire for the type of show that it, uh, that it built around that NFL coverage, which was sort of more entertainment focused than pundit. Uh, yeah. Uh, based as well. So I think there's, uh, there's been a fair amount of noise on social media from Yeah.

Uh, from, from various viewers, but, but yeah. Um, you know, these are, they, they had games like team members trying to stay on a booking Bronco and, and, uh, I missed that one. Yeah. This sort of, uh. This sort of, uh, entertainment, which, uh, hasn't necessarily gone down, which I mean, you know, just trying to I understand what they're trying to do.

Yeah. Trying to make an entertaining show out of, uh, uh, around some, uh, valuable sports coverage. [00:41:00] But, um, you know, I think maybe people would prefer. Punditry and, uh, and serious analysis. Yes. I think people 

Stephen Arnell: are gonna watch it for, for, for interest in the sport or life of the sport rather than from the game show or the, the entertainment aspects, which, uh, they're provided in the show itself, especially at the halftime shows they used to do, but, or still do rather.

Um, yeah, I, I agree with totally there. It might be a, an experiment that won't last long. 

Justin Crosby: And, and, uh, really interesting to see Piers Morgan's, uh, uncensored YouTube show now being repackaged and highlights going on, uh, going on Channel five. 

Stephen Arnell: Well, presumably it won't be called uncensored because under British tv, in, in, they, they, everything is not if censored, they will be rules, uh, applying to it.

So. I dunno, is it just called a highlight show? I, I haven't, uh, confessed haven't seen it. It'll be 

Justin Crosby: highlights. 'cause some of his shows are, you know, run to about an hour and a half, you know, and they have, you know, five guests on simultaneously and it, it, it runs and runs as a [00:42:00] debate. I mean, it's, uh, a lot of his shows actually, I have to say compelling viewing, but, but also, you know.

His editorial style as well as he will platform various guests that you wouldn't imagine seeing on, on network tv. Yeah, certainly on channel for example. 

Stephen Arnell: Yeah. Which Channel five is, as I said, under Ben Frow built this, this very nice reputation is a sort of home of, of, of, again, I think cozy crime, lovely travel logs, things from the north of England and making it a sort of, you know, almost like.

Talking pictures tv. A nice place to go that you won't be asai by anything like that and which is good. I think we need someone like that and to find, now that we've got NFL and. Piers Morgan jammed into the mix sight. It just, it doesn't really work for me. I think it detracts from the channel's, many virtues.

Justin Crosby: Yeah. I mean, I mean, I think, you know, piers Morgan's desperately trying to get Elon Musk, uh, as a guest. He's, he's, uh, he's interviewed Trump many [00:43:00] times, so he has, you know, he has amazing access. Yeah. Access. And, you know, his view is. Is really, you know, he's looking to get to challenge a lot of, a lot of celebrities out there who are, you know, hugely influential.

I mean, we talked about Farage, but you know the other, right. At the end of the scale, Tommy Robinson is now probably one of the biggest political activists in the uk, and Morgan would love to have Tommy Robinson on the show. But would that 

Stephen Arnell: Channel five, although. From coming from a previous, from a research background in the early nineties.

I'm just think what, put my thinking cap, I'm thinking wondering what someone at Channel five must have done some research into the, maybe the GB news viewing of Channel five viewers or, or, or some political viewpoint or so that could. Be a factor. I don't think they could ignore it, that there might be a sort of, if they're older viewers, which I believe channel five viewers probably lean towards, you know, the more from 45 pluses, then there might be a sort of yearning for that.

Again, [00:44:00] in their co, in their liking of it, traditional English things, there might be a sort of GB news, crossover, crossover to the anti woke, things like that. So you never know, I haven't, I haven't seen the research, but I suspect someone might have done something like that and found that the average channel five viewer.

It could possibly be more in favor of Morgan, God forbid, than, than things like that. 

Justin Crosby: Mm-hmm. Well, it's, uh, who knows? It's gonna be really fascinating to see how that develops over the next year or so. Yeah, and, and also, you know, whether there'll be an impact. There's, there's, there's another mega merger in the, in the offering potentially when now Paramount Skydance.

Course, yeah. Uh, are, uh, are looking to acquire, according to reports are looking to acquire Warner Brothers Discovery as well, which is two of the largest American legacy media conglomerates and movie studios into one. So obviously that would have an effect on Channel five as well if it happened. 

Stephen Arnell: Indeed.

I mean, it's, I think it's, it is, it is to see in the coming months, it won't, well, again, [00:45:00] prophecies never really work out, do I say? Well, we might see in a month's time, couple, few months, but you might see it next week. The way things move at the moment, there's no real, you haven't going to predicate things on at the moment.

I think that's the, that's the trouble in a way. You know, there's no, there's no rash the way things behave. 

Justin Crosby: No, no. And, uh, the Ellison family, they're, uh, they're not messing about, are they? No, they're, uh, they're, they're moving very, very quickly. Yeah. 

Stephen Arnell: Um, what did they say? What was the phrase? And I'm not gonna say we, the swearing is it move, break things and, and quickly, isn't it?

That's, that's one of the phrases. Yes. Yeah. Move fast and break things quickly. Yeah, 

Justin Crosby: that's right. That's right. That's the Silicon Valley. Yes. Uh, yeah, the Silicon Valley term, 

Stephen Arnell: the management of Alien Earth moment. 

Justin Crosby: Um, Steven, I'm gonna let you get back to thank you very much, uh, to, to Cornwall. Uh, are you going down to Rick Stein's place and, uh, and have fish?

Stephen Arnell: I'm not, but I, I'll be launching out somewhere. I think I'm going to the old brewery from, it's an Aus Brewery later on, at lunchtime for, [00:46:00] for a, for a meal there. But, uh, no, I, I don't tend to, to frequent Rick Stein's establishments. 

Justin Crosby: Right. Alright, well, what another. Enjoy the brewery. Thank you very much. And uh, listen, thank you so much for coming on.

It's been great chatting about these five or six news stories with you. We must do it again sometime. So, uh, thank you so much for joining us. Great, thanks. Well, that's about it for this week's show. We'll be back next week for another show. Until then, stay safe.