The Next Wave of Documentaries with Ben Zand and Donata von Perfall

In this week’s TellyCast, Justin Crosby is joined by filmmaker Ben Zand and Documentary Campus CEO Donata von Perfall. Ben discusses the launch of Human, his bold new self-funded YouTube documentary strand that puts storytelling and brand-building ahead of TV commissioning. He explains why he’s betting on a digital-first strategy, how Zandland is creating content with empathy and access, and the business model behind the series.

Donata von Perfall outlines the evolution of Documentary Campus, its renowned Master School training programme, and the launch of NEXTWAVE – a new digital-first documentary summit taking place in Halle, Germany this autumn. She shares how Documentary Campus is helping filmmakers adapt to the fast-changing factual landscape and why now is the moment to champion digital-first storytelling in Europe.

HUMAN launches Thursday 2nd October on ZANDLAND's YouTube channel

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Transcript

Justin Crosby: [00:00:00] Step into the world of digital first production. At Next Wave, the brand new summit launching in Halle, Germany. This October documentary Campus presents Next Wave, the Digital first production Summit at Industry Training Day. Curated by me Justin Crosby. Next wave brings together innovators and decision makers driving today's digital first production economy.

Sessions will explore launching successful YouTube channels, moving from TV to digital production, monetizing catalog content, transforming broadcast content for streaming platforms, building brand partnerships, and navigating the new world. Of commissioning Next Wave is part of the documentary campus Industry Training Days alongside the renowned master school pitching event, creating a powerful space where filmmakers and executives connect, exchange ideas, and unlock market ready opportunities.

Join us in Halle, Germany on [00:01:00] October the 31st and November the first. Registered now at Documentary hyphen Campus. Dot com. That's documentary campus.com.

Hi, I'm Justin Crosby and welcome to this week's telecast, my guest This week our next generation documentary maker, Sandlands Benza, a documentary campus, CEO, Donat van per. As we discuss Ben's new self-funded series, human and Donata gives us the background to the documentary Campers Master School Program, and November's Next Wave Digital First documentary Summit that we are collaborating on.

It's all coming up on this week's telecast.

So I am here with Ben Zand at the Premier of Human, which is a brand new YouTube series. Uh, that is self-funded. A [00:02:00] really bold move, uh, from Zand land. And Ben, this is something that we talked about originally back on telecast. I dunno how long ago might be even be a year or so ago, but 

Ben Zand: Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, it's a, I remember talking about it then.

It was still very much kind of in the sites, but at that point we hadn't quite figured out, you know, the, the complete format slash hook slash premise slash actually, importantly, the production pipeline. You know, how it would actually be made. Um, so it's, it's, it's nice to have made some films that we're gonna release.

Justin Crosby: Yeah, well, it, it's, it's amazing some of the films that we've just seen, and I will talk about the, the actual content of the series in a second. But, um, but it overall, you know, moving into this self-funded documentary space, which is, I think for many people the future of documentary, but document, getting documentaries funded by networks at the best of times is hard, right?

How are you going to, uh, [00:03:00] wean yourself off the crack of, uh, of, uh, network commissions and into self-funded, uh, documentary making? 

Ben Zand: Uh, that's actually a fantastic question, and the reason it's a good question is because conventional commissioning is very destructing, understandably, you know, kind of, it makes a lot of sense theoretically, and it's a much simpler process, theoretically, in terms of, I'll come with an idea.

These people will pay me up front for said idea and I'll make a production fee on top. So in trying to do something like human and create our own content, a big part of it is weaning yourself off the crack, trying to stop being so distracted by conventional tv. Uh, because the thing is about self-funding something, it's just all risk, you know?

It's terrifying. You're kind of putting your own money in, in front. So a big part of my brain is in terms of strategizing the future of the business is. Think less time about conventional tv, but enough time to keep the funding for the time being [00:04:00] whilst putting a lot of time into self-funded content and revenue streams off the back of that.

Um, so I will do it by, uh, launching human first and foremost. 'cause that'll open up, you know, some practical data we can use to say, okay, here's how much you spent per episode. A big part of it is just a big beta testing mode. You know, it's like we've done something that. You know, there's risk associated, but it's not super high risk.

It's not insanely expensive. We've done it in an area of content we make a lot in, so we know how to make this type of content for not huge amounts of cash. Um, it's in an area of content we have preexisting data in, 'cause we've made a lot of this stuff before in the digital realm. Let's done well. So it's like, okay, let's do it there.

Let's do it with the kind of teams that we know have made this type of content before and we've now banked 12 films. We're still filming more and we're gonna release those films over the next six months. Um, we're actually gonna be releasing two a month for the first three months. Um, so at that point we'll have a huge amount of data to pull [00:05:00] back.

We'll be able to start approaching brands in a more kind of coherent way. Um, and we're also having conversations around acquiring individual episodes to TV organizations. Um, so a lot of that sense around recouping the cash we've sent is spent with, is already there. My big push now is I want to launch a lot more of these brands, which is a conversation with investors on the one hand, and, um, banking as much data as we can around human because you'll be able to practically say as what we do.

Um, and I think, you know, the thought process initially was do something in a space that we have an unfair advantage in. We know how to make this type of content, not lots of people do, so let's focus it there. And then once we have. Big success there. We can start looking into industries. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah, absolutely.

Well, well tell us about human then, uh, the series and the, the premise of it, because it, it really, as you say, I think it really dials into your sweet spot, uh, which you've become known for. But, uh, [00:06:00] but uh, for people that don't know about Sand London, the films that you've made before, tell us about that and what, what human is.

Ben Zand: Yeah. The premise was there's a large audience of underserved. Factual oriented documentary or oriented individuals on YouTube looking to understand the world. They may have previously watched something like Vice, then Vice used to exist. They may have watched Vox vs. Vox largely seeks to exist. And now they watch individual creators like Johnny Harris or Cle Abram.

Um, and they're trying to kind of get their fix in the world, but they don't wanna be told what to think. Um, and they're currently being served a bunch of kind of. Largely partisan, controversial content from a bunch of influencers, uh, and creators who don't have necessarily the journalistic training that we do and ultimately can't necessarily get access to the same places we can, due to the fact that most of our team are kind of journalists and producers who have been making this content for years.

So the rationale was, oh, we have a unique proposition in this [00:07:00] space. We know how to make content not for a huge amount of money in this space, and we think there's a gap of human face content, which is. Content that is empathetic, understanding, nonjudgmental, trying to be as objective as you can realistically be.

'cause you can't be a hundred percent objective. It's very difficult. Um, so we were like, let's make a series, what else will we call it other than human? Because the series is about, you know, the humans that exist. And we were like, let's just back it ourselves and let's try and figure out a way that we do this in a kind of sustainable way.

So the initial plan was one a month. You know, the, the filming days are literally like. You know, each episode is two filming days with one studio day. Then we try and edit it in two weeks. That's not prohibitive. That's completely achievable. Um, you know, and then the current restriction is on my time, in all honesty.

But my time could max out, I'd say probably 30 films a year. 'cause you can only have to film two days per episode. But then the next plan is new creators, new strands under this online [00:08:00] universe. 

Justin Crosby: So take us through. Some of the highlights of human, uh, we've just seen an amazing, uh, documentary 20 Minute or, or, or so in length, uh, focused on, uh, an African community, white only community in South Africa.

Um, which you'll see, I think it's, it's gonna be, uh, launching in early October. Is 

Ben Zand: that It's a week tomorrow. 

Justin Crosby: Okay. Yeah. So, uh, October 

Ben Zand: 2nd. 

Justin Crosby: October 2nd. Um, and, um. So tell us about that episode and also, you know, the common strand that's running through the series, those 12 films that you've already shot.

Ben Zand: Yeah. So the best I can describe it is that it is about the human experience. So we touch on issues of identity, issues of sex, issues of race, issues of class, um. Uh, it's use of mental health. Uh, so like, you know, the, the, uh, claim Fontine whites only town looks at race. It's a group of africanas. If you [00:09:00] are, they don't have a place in South Africa anymore.

So they've created their own exclusive community. Uh, one of the episodes is in a remote tribe in Africa, and that one's looking at whether we'd all be happier living as home together is maybe we should just stop using our phone. What's it like going to a place that has no technology? Warn of them is about nudism, you know, what's it like if we just raid ourselves of status and clothes?

Would you be happier? Warn them's about sexuality in a brothel, but what's it like to kind of be someone who sells your body for sex? What does that feel like? Uh, one of them is about, uh, kind of gang membership in Chicago. Um, I trying to, you've got so many of them at this point trying to rhythm 'em off.

One, it's about life in jail. It's about incarceration in America. It's a two part to that one. 'cause we filmed for a bunch. Of days you've got exclusive access to a jail. And we're like, oh my God. And sometimes you are, you are pulled by the access because you are like, oh my God, you know how this is incredible.

Um, and I want this about Israel and Palestine understand what it's like to live in the shadow of atrocities [00:10:00] as an individual in the most complicated of places. So we took, we're not afraid to touch on really tricky topics, but we're also trying to balance it with, you know, we need to be able to. Have brands associate themselves with the content.

Some of that's easier than others. Um, but you know, at the core of it is just like, what is it like to be human? They're not meant to be controversial. Some of them are inherently a little bit controversial. It's impossible to escape that, but most of them aren't. Most of them are just like, it's a person living through time in a world that's getting increasingly extreme.

And we're trying to be the bit of rationality in the middle of all that. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. And is what's what? What's really, um, I think, uh, uh, enjoyable for me as a viewer watching it, is that it's non-judgmental. I mean, you are approaching, like, we, we've just seen a, a, as I say, 20 minute film about you, you being in Clinton, Fontain, the white, uh, south African only, uh, town.

And you know, I think you, [00:11:00] you, you clearly have to approach that with a very open mind and nonjudgmental, um. Equally getting access to some of these more extreme, uh, many people would, would class them as, uh, extreme communities or, or, uh, or, or groups. Must be uh, must be tricky. I mean, there, there's, there's so many questions I want to ask you about.

Uh, first of all, has this always been your plan to create human? I mean, I know it, it was because of our original conversation on, uh, telecast, which can. Uh, checkout on a past episode, but, um, taking yourself away from the commissioner, uh, network commissioner, uh, uh, roundabout, if you like, and, and, and, and relying on other people.

I mean, is it particularly freeing? Is, are you approaching this in a very different way in the sense that you are self-funding it and therefore there's no gatekeepers, there's nobody to [00:12:00] tell you, give you any edit points and everything, how. How freeing and, and different is that from a, working from a normal network commission?

Ben Zand: I mean, it's unbelievably freeing. Uh, you know, and I think like, um, I, you know, the way I see Zand is as a, it's a, we're a content studio. We fund the content that we think is interesting, even if that's a big Netflix pitch. And like, I'm going into Netflix tomorrow to talk about a show that seems very promising.

It's content. We've started filming anyway, so no matter what we do, we back it because we believe in it. And we'll find a way for that content to exist. That's not always the case, but that's the mindset of everyone who works, which is like, we do this because we believe in that story regardless. We're not gonna be told it's a good story.

We're gonna do it if we think it's a good story. Uh, this is the purest form of that because we literally do the stories we want. Nobody tells us what to do, we just create it. It's fantastic. Um. You know, there's kind of, you know, eventually that will change 'cause the audience will tell [00:13:00] us, the audience will be the commissioners.

They'll start to tell us if they like and don't like, and we'll start to be pulled in certain ways through the responses to the content. Um, but it's freeing because, and I'd say just the, the biggest and most empowering thing about to genuinely is, is the mental impact, because development in a TV sense can be so disempowering.

You feel as though you're just a victim of circumstance to the whims and movements of a TV industry to what a commissioner wants. This is just, I believe in this story. I think this will be a good story. And as a creative, you need that sense of identity of you need to have a barometer of what you know works.

Um, so I think that's been the most exciting part of it. 

Justin Crosby: So, um, so tell me about the, the economics of this. So you've, you've had, uh. You've got a successful production company's still a young production company, but are you basically plowing the profits of your network commissions into this [00:14:00] as, as, as a bet?

Basically, this is your future focus strategy now. I mean, and, and, and tell us about Sandlands digital first strategy because it's very much about multiple revenue streams, I imagine. 

Ben Zand: Yeah. So in terms of how it's funded. Yeah, as it currently stands, we're funding it through the profits that we make from our commissions.

You know, uh, it's not all the profits we make because we still need to do TV development and we still need to do other things. Um, but a portion of profits and it's mapped out, we, we kind of map out for like a six month time period, you know, at a time. Um, and then, yeah, the kind of revenue streams are what you can imagine, you know, it's like, um, a combination of ans AdSense, brand partnerships, TV acquisitions.

Merchandise live events, uh, Patreon subscriptions. So, uh, those different things will earn money at different times. So in the immediate term, we're looking for TV acquisitions will be a very kind of immediate, we're already having conversations. People who wanna [00:15:00] buy individual shows great. Depending on the money, it'll either be geo blocked in certain areas, or it'll be that they get a face run of some of the content.

Uh, as it then goes on, it'll be brand partnerships, kind of sponsors on specific shows. Uh, and the idea is we keep the individual episodes as minimal in cost as humanly possible so that the margin can be as high as possible. Um, and you know, it might be initially a show costs 20 K and we make 30 k, and then it starts to scale up as time goes on because the audience gets bigger, the brand partnerships get bigger.

Um, we have more and more shows that we start to be able to, um, to kind of leverage. Um, and then yet there's an element of that which is that will then result in conventional TV partnership. But that actually isn't the ambition. Uh, so, 

Justin Crosby: so, uh, actually just, just, uh, tapping into that, uh, aspect as well. So obviously you are shooting and producing around about 20 minute, uh, 20 minute documentary shows.

Yeah. 20 to 40 minutes. 20 to [00:16:00] 40, okay. So it's, it's a pretty wide right? It's, it's as long as the long or short as the story needs to be. Yeah, 

Ben Zand: they'll, they'll map out as effectively TV times. So like, for example. Playing Fontaine's about 24 minutes, which is like a TV slot with adverts. Um, on Israel's about 47 minutes, which is a TV hour.

Um, because we are aiming that they can be. Slotted into TV shows. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. Well, that was gonna be on my next question is presumably you've got enough content for every, uh, single episode that that can scale up to be a TV show and it's in a shot to TV quality that you can then work with a distribution company to actually take that linear, 

Ben Zand: they look like TV shows, you know, and I think what we've done, uh, a lot of it is about being.

Intelligent in your approach, which is, as you can see, there's a studio element in it where I'm sitting there talking to camera. That's because that's cheaper to do, you know? So we'll spend time with somebody for two days. We'll get, [00:17:00] and the way we, the way we kind of map it out is that we're speaking to people in specific precincts that you can get a lot of content in a short space of time.

Um, and then we double that with a studio setup where I'm sitting there, I'm doing explainers, so that you can get a super compelling. You know, 24 minute episode, that could be a TV show that feels very premium, high production value, but isn't that hard for us to pull off. So it's not like each time we are worried whether we can make it.

It's very easy, you know, each of those, we just go for a day and shoot somewhere and make sure that some scenes are filmed and then it's ends up being a compelling. 

Justin Crosby: So, but in terms of format, I mean, uh, again, just referring back to the show that, uh, that you can all see on, uh, in early October, uh, uh, the client Fontaine show, um, halfway through you are doing a, a, a bit of a trailer, you know, for sand.

Yeah, for, for sand land. Right. For and. Which is, you know, in terms of format for documentary makers who want to move from the [00:18:00] traditional, uh, uh, commissioning to digital first approach that you are doing there, there's some key, really key format points that they have to, I guess, understand, which is, you know, halfway through a show you can do, you can do a, a, a, essentially a read for yourself and like.

Subscribe, you know, followers, you know. 

Ben Zand: Yeah. And the way, the way we think about it, which I think is a useful way to think about it, is we're building the brand. Our leverage lies in the brand. And there in this way, there's two brands, there's human and the Z Land. Human is a strand within Zand, and we're trying to build a community of Zanders.

If we can do that, we have the world on our feet. We can have Zand on Netflix, Zand on Hulu, Zand on the BB. C. So in order to do that, we have to make the pitch constantly to the audience as to why they should come towards Zand. And luckily, we fully believe in the pitch, which is come to Zand to understand the world in a non-judgmental way to get access to places you wouldn't usually be able to get to.

That ask Will will [00:19:00] change over time. It'll be, please give us some money because we have this subscription element. Please come to this live event. Please buy these t-shirts. So I think a big part of it is just literally believing what you're saying. And I think the beauty we have. And the advantage we have over maybe other production companies doing this is we literally fully believe this.

This has been the plan for a long time. We want to create a digital brand that people can get behind that is journalistic, that kind of understands the world in a different way. So everyone is just fully into that premise. So we're constantly shouting about it. So my kind of. Uh, advice to anybody also wanting to do it is do the thing that you genuinely believe.

You know, because we didn't come to this and go, how do we create a digital brand that Zand could do? It's like, we're making this content anyway. Let's think about how we push the thing that we're really good at in this space. Um, which just helps. 

Justin Crosby: And I, and I think, you know, final, finally, you know, one of the key, [00:20:00] uh, the key premise of.

Digital first is building community around your content, which is something you've got a very clear premise in terms of, you know, what you deliver as a brand in terms of sand land, and, um, and that's, that's, you know, that's really super important, isn't it, in terms of brand values and what sand land means and what viewers can expect.

From, as landline showed, that's that's something that you're obviously keen to deliver on every single film. 

Ben Zand: Yeah. We thought there was a lot of thinking in advance of launching this and thinking about like, who the hell are we? Why would anyone care? Why would anyone be part of this? And then we went for a kind of high level call to action on the state of the world and trying to create a slightly better place.

There's an of that's a little bit hippie. There's a journalistic call to action in there, but it's something that we genuinely believe that gets us going every single day. And that we believe is a gap in the market that people can get behind. You know? It's like it's create and, and I think a big part of [00:21:00] it was what is the positioning of the Zan Land brand within this like, and how do we push that out there in a way people want to get behind?

How do we create a community of like-minded individuals and then we landed on Z Land as a destination. You know, Z land's a country you can go to to meet people you know, who might not be normal. They might not live in a conventional way. Um, but they'll help you understand the world and they'll help you feel understood as well.

And it's like, if we can get people to latch onto that, that's, that's good. You know? Yeah. We can make that a thing. 

Justin Crosby: I love it. It's su it's a super clear proposition and, uh, and, and, and a real sort of inspiration, hopefully other documentary makers making move into digital first. And, and finally, Ben, we're looking forward to seeing you on the first November at Next Wave, which is.

Brand new event that I'm, uh, happily, uh, curating with documentary campus over in Halle in Germany. Um, and we are gonna be talking about essentially the next wave of digital documentary. So, you know, your, your [00:22:00] input on that is gonna be really, really crucial and vital. And it's gonna be, uh, it's a great time and I'll see you in, uh, in Germany on the 1st of November.

Ben Zand: See you there. Excited for it. 

Justin Crosby: Alright, well, um, uh, congratulations on the launch of Human, Ben. Great to speak to you and, uh. All the best. Can't wait to hear what's next from Zao. 

Ben Zand: Thank you so much. 

Justin Crosby: So my next guest on this week's telecast is Donta Van Perle, managing Director of Documentary Campus, which is a nonprofit organization based in Munich.

It's supported and funded by the European Union's Media program. German and European and film media foundations, private and public broadcasters, uh, production and distribution companies, and lots of local, regional, national authorities. As well as institutions active in the European documentary sector.

Donato, welcome to Telecast. How you doing? 

Donata von Perfall: I'm doing super fine and I love how you pronounce my name. Thank you so much for inviting me to your show. 

Justin Crosby: Not at all. It's, [00:23:00] it's wonderful to have you on and I, you know, I think a lot of our listeners. Will be aware of documentary campus, but they might not know, you know, the detail in terms of what you do in the different events and, and, and, uh, and courses, et cetera that you run.

So, so, you know, tell us a little bit about it. So, documentary Campus Master School has been running. For over two decades now. Just give us a bit of background about how, how it's grown and what documentary Campus Master School is. 

Donata von Perfall: Yeah, happy to. And actually it's really incredible that it is already 25 years ago when we started it, and you know what we were called Discovery Campus at that time.

Did you know that? 

Justin Crosby: No. No. Okay. So was it, was it funded by discovery? It was 

Donata von Perfall: funded by Discovery at the time to give us a, a good entree into the market. And the very first project we actually started off with and which is still the center of our organization, is the master school. So the documentary Campus Master School, and this is the 10 months incubation program for projects which have a [00:24:00] high level international potential.

And we select, um, 15 projects from all over Europe each year. They go through a series of training workshops in different cities to get ready for production stage. So you have to imagine that at the end of the training program, the participants have the opportunity to then pitch their projects to international funders, sales agents, and actually more and more also to representatives from found.

Justin Crosby: Okay, so you basically helped them shape their documentary programs over a, a over a period of time, over a set of courses, and then, you know, they're honed and kinda ready, ready to pitch? 

Donata von Perfall: Yes. That's, that's it. And, um. All over all those years, we constantly, of course, adapt the content, um, to the needs of the developments of the international markets or the content of the workshops.

And um, so we also, in this year of 25, we have a very special cohort. Um, because for the first time we really [00:25:00] breaking down the pyramid, which has characterized our industry for so long, this means that for us, feature documentaries for theatrical release. Television projects and digital first content is now in an equal playing field.

And all participants in the program give all those areas series attention. And this year for the first time, we have so more digital projects than ever before in the program. 

Justin Crosby: Okay. Well that's great. And that's, uh, that's is a particular interest to me of course, in terms of, that's why I, yeah. Mentioning 

Ben Zand: it 

Justin Crosby: and a drop.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, um, well, we heard earlier on. From Ben Zand, who's, uh, who's just launched his new documentary series direct to, uh, to YouTube, and I'm sure there's gonna be lots of really creative and interesting projects that's gonna be part of the 2025 cohort. So, you know, so there's a massive range of themes Yep.

In, in, uh, in this year as well from war trauma and migration. To, uh, potatoes and, uh, and [00:26:00] friendship and, uh, you know, tell us how you curate and guide such a, a really diverse range of stories through that master school. Process. 

Donata von Perfall: So actually the beauty of documentary campus is its diversity and topics.

Whilst our main focus is on the international sales potential of the individual story. So our selection committees are very conscious of selecting projects that will fit into the market. So this commercial orientation sets us also apart from other training programs. And when you imagine that you start with the first workshop, of course the emphasis is.

A lot on storytelling and story structure because at this stage you still have a choice which way to go. So you can go with us, not just cinema or television, but also digital first, as I mentioned. And then the following workshops, concentrate more on production is issues. Um, impact strategies and financing.

Um, but what it also makes it outstanding is that during [00:27:00] the whole program, the participants are individually created by leading international experts, and they continue to work in parallel to the workshops on the story. So this year, for example, we included experts from Spirit Studios, um, little Dot or Quinter Studios.

Justin Crosby: Yeah, there's actually a lot of experts have been on the website. There's about 20 or 30 I think on there. There's, uh, there's some very familiar names and, uh, in the, in the documentary world. So for those filmmakers that are pitching at Master School, then what sort of impact does this, uh, uh, usually have, you know, the process of going through master school, you know, what, what sort of stage are these projects at when they're first pitched to you, and, and, and how do they develop to the end of the course?

Donata von Perfall: Uh, so I said at the end of the program, the participants pitched their projects to, for the first time to a large international crowd of finances and an industry public. And the aim is to get the projects into production and [00:28:00] actually up to 70% of them do. Um, but what I believe is equally important is that during the program, we really plug the participants into it.

Amazing, powerful network, a unique cohort of peers. And for a lot of our alumni, the master school has been part into growing their business and it lead into further productions or other projects. Um, but to your question, I think it's better. Maybe I give you a couple of examples. Um, even so that's super tricky for me to, to say because each project.

For me stands for it individual success. But having said this, there are good examples which stand for the development process we are going through or they're going through the master school. So if you mi, if you don't mind, I give you a couple of them. Mm-hmm. Please. There is, for example, notes on Blindness, which started as a documentary based on audio recordings, and so the development process within the master school, it went on to become a critically [00:29:00] acclaimed immersive project and won prize around all the A festivals such as Sundance, BAFTA awarded and Screed at Art and Netflix, or.

Something completely different. Um, it's Toro. This is a humorous coming of age story of uh, two Italian friends and about modern manhood. Super funny. And it was just premiered at South by So West in London. And this is a super good example of a story, which on paper. Was amazingly difficult to see, but it grew into an important project emphasizing our work, supporting diverse and unexpected nonfiction projects.

And both the commissioning editor and distributor came on board via our pitching event, for example. But we also have other projects like Flea, which is a completely animated nonfiction projects, and, um. It won a lot of prize and was also nominated in, uh, for the Oscars in three categories, so I could go on and on and to impress you as awarded films.

Um, what I wanted to say is [00:30:00] we develop all kind of formats within the master school, and as you mentioned it, you can find them also now website. 

Justin Crosby: And, and so we're, we are coming towards this year's, uh, master school, which is October the 31st. And uh, and also on the 1st of November when, uh, we are gonna be partnering together on a new addition to Master School, which is Next Wave.

And I'm really excited about this. This is a, uh. A brand new digital first production day focused on factual and the docu documentary space and very much focused on digital first factual storytelling. So you approached us to, to get involved in that. What, what? Tell us about, you know, why. You feel it's the right moment to launch this summit and, and, uh, and how does it compliment the master school and also Silver Salts, which we'll talk a little bit about.

Mm-hmm. 'cause it, it takes place within a huge event called, uh, silver Salts. Um, but yeah, [00:31:00] tell us about Silver Salts and why Next Wave and why now? 

Donata von Perfall: Okay, let me start from the beginning. We are actually very attuned with the digital transformation already, and a year ago I appointed a digital leader and multi-platform producer as our new head of master school.

And since then we also have digital mentors advising projects. So in this 25 edition, we already have aligned our training program towards the fundamentally shifting market, and therefore it came very naturally. To add our flag to our flagship event, the master school pitch, which we spoke about, this new summit we are both working on together, which we now call Next Wave and to include a day on digital topic.

And, um, maybe to explain a bit more. At the core of what we do stands training the industry. With this step, we want to take on the role to champion digital first content on European mainland. We want to be the go-to place to discuss, to [00:32:00] explore, and to exchange ideas how the market is transforming and the traditional companies need to address it.

And since they're used to coming to our event, we are very well positioned to offer this focus on digital storytelling now. And needless to say, Justin, I'm particularly happy that you, um, agreed to curate this summit for us. 

Justin Crosby: Well, it's, it's, you know what, uh, one of the reasons why I did this is a, I love going to Germany and, uh, but, but more importantly, you know, I thought that that your approach.

It's, you know, really forward looking. I think there are a number of organizations, training organizations in, in the TV industry as a whole who are training people for skills for jobs that are not gonna exist in 2, 3, 4 years. And it doesn't, they don't seem to be reacting to, you know, this massive transformation that is, it's not only happening, it's already happened.

And, uh, it seems crazy for [00:33:00] companies to be to training people for these. You know, these roles that aren't gonna happen, whereas you are very much looking at the future helping filmmakers future proof their businesses and understand, you know, the new production landscape. So, so that's, you know, that, that, that's one of the reasons why I wanted to get involved and I, I'm gonna run down.

The, uh, execs that are gonna come over. 'cause uh, not, not everybody's from the uk but it's predominantly UK set of speakers. I'm gonna rattle through them very quickly. We've got Kate be from Woodcut, really well known factual production business who have launched their own YouTube channel. So it's gonna be great to talk to Kate about her.

Background and her experience in launching YouTube as a, as a, you know, really well-versed and well-respected factual TV producer and the new brand new journey she's taken with YouTube. So that's gonna be fascinating. We've got Charlie Highland, uh, from Channel four is gonna be [00:34:00] talking about how. Channel four is transforming into a digital first, uh, public service streamer.

We've got Melissa Chapman from Jungle Creations, Bart Frank from Object. We've got Charlie Reed, brand funded expert from Upstream uk. We've got Garrett Ming. Of course, many people will know from Quinta Studios. Um, Ben Zand, who we spoke to earlier on from Sand Line. We've got Janine. Thomas from channel four, it's com uh, documentary commissioner.

Um, we obviously have Adam G who's involved in the master school as well. He's gonna be helping moderating, uh, some of the sessions. And we've got Graham Hague from ICB studios. We've got Neils Frank from Little Doc Germany. Um, and we've got Li Levard from Full Joy Media from France. He was ex new and digital, uh, Serena Jones from the B one m.

I mean, there's lots of, uh, and we've got Rory Griffin, who's a YouTuber. Uh, working in the science, uh, space as well. So it's, uh, it's gonna be a really interesting event. I, I can't wait. I'm looking forward to [00:35:00] it. It's the same week as the digital content forum. Actually, it's on the 1st of November, this event.

And, uh, so I'm going two conferences in a week. So I'm, uh, I, I'm gonna have absolutely no hair left. Uh, you'll use it and it's 

Donata von Perfall: an amazing list, which you have brought together there. Just to add that Adam g is actually head of this year's Masters goal. So, so it's a very nice, uh, line in here. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah, absolutely.

So, so this, this is gonna take part with In Inhaler in Germany, uh, near La Leipzig, um, on the 31st of October and the 1st of November. Now, this is part of Silver Salts, which is a wider event. Tell us, uh, uh, briefly about Silver Salts. 

Donata von Perfall: So the Zas Festival, uh, for Science and Media is another project of documentary campus.

It's in its eighth edition, and of course, it's. As unique as the master school. It brings science and fact-based content into the public via all kind of forms, uh, like films, immersive exhibitions, talk format, [00:36:00] theater performance workshop, and it's an incredibly fun and participatory festival where the public exchange with the invited experts in an eye level and where we invite our audience.

To change perspectives, to help to find solutions for our worldwide global topics to be part of the discourse of tomorrow. It's um, it's super funny and I love it a lot to go there myself, even the, and, um. We, each year we also select a special, special topic of the festival. Should I talk a bit about it?

You want to? 

Justin Crosby: Yeah, please. 

Donata von Perfall: So this year, our main topic of the festival, I feel the spark. We concentrate this year on future energy and that gives a g glimpse, glimpse not only towards the new technologies or innovations, which will shape the future, but also one of the biggest challenges of our times. Um, mainly how to transform our societies towards a more sustainable future in all senses.

And for that, the [00:37:00] curators bring this topic into all parts of our programming, and we accompany our program with re known scientists. And we also have a significant life program. This year, actually, we are hosting four live podcasts from Halle. During an immersive street theater show, and we are hosting live AV shows at the local planetarium.

So for you to imagine, we are playing the city at 14 different locations. We have more than 120 event points over five days of the festival, and we expect around 40,000 visitors from four years old to 90 years old. So we have something to enjoy for when you come. 

Justin Crosby: Wow. Yeah, I, well, I can't wait. It sounds brilliant.

Mm-hmm. Um, so, so documentary campus has always been about networking and collaboration over this past 20, 25 years. How are you designing these events in Halle to encourage, you know, real cross border partnerships? 

Donata von Perfall: It's all about networking. In the end, as you said, the concept for [00:38:00] me is super simple. I see us as a daily growing big, curious, open-minded family, which comes together for a couple of days and we schedule the program for it.

And this re is reflected in combining all our offers in Hale. To bringing the master school next wave to, and results together to being a cross-sectional event, um, where we do work with artists, creative technologists, scientists, filmmakers, and creators. So to learn from each other, to inspire, to exchange, to create, and to network on projects being part of a process.

And super important to have fun, to create comfortable spaces and experiences and, um, we party together a lot Justin, so it's a, yeah, we have very, very great social events. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah, fantastic. And, uh, it's could be Halloween as well. Yeah, please, please dress 

Donata von Perfall: up. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah, well, I don't need too much makeup, really. No, no, no, you [00:39:00] don't.

But you should 

Donata von Perfall: come up with a really amazing dress, please. 

Justin Crosby: Um. So, so finally, Donato, what, what do you personally hope participants will take away from Halle this year? From Master School, from Next Wave and, and you know, and overall from Silver Cells. 

Donata von Perfall: Okay. The Master School and Next Wave have an industry audience and Zilba results is addressing the public.

So. Uh, but what I really hope, what brings it to the core is that you go home feeling inspired and empowered and that you feel being part of a community. 

Justin Crosby: Okay? Fantastic. And for anybody who wants to find out more, they just need to go to documentary. campus.com and they'll find all the information up there that work?

Yes. And could I 

Donata von Perfall: add something Justin? I just say the call for entries for the master school 26 is out now. They find that also on our, uh, website. And of course I invite everyone to come with us to Hale in in October, [00:40:00] um, to join this amazing festival, the Masters. Good pitch in our next Wave Summit. 

Justin Crosby: Thank you so much.

It's been really great to. To, to chat with you. Um, as I say, I can't wait. Looking forward to it and looking forward to, uh, uh, two, three days over in, uh, uh, hallow, which is near Leipzig in Germany. So looking forward to that and next time, 

Donata von Perfall: hopefully in person with a glass of wine in our hands, huh? 

Justin Crosby: Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

I'll a hundred percent make sure that happens. Donato, thank you so much for spending time with us and uh, I look forward to seeing you, uh, at the end of October. Me too. Well, that's about it for this week's show. I hope you enjoyed it. We'll be back with another episode later this week as we catch up with Julie Meldon Johnson, as ITV Studios reveals the highlights of their new scripted, unscripted, and format slate.

This telecast was recorded in London and produced by me at home until later this week. Stay [00:41:00] [00:42:00] [00:43:00] [00:44:00] [00:45:00] safe.