How Spirit Studios Is Building a Digital-First Super Indie

This week on TellyCast, Justin Crosby sits down with Matt Campion, co-founder of Spirit Studios, for a deep dive into how one of the UK’s most established digital-first production companies is building for the future.

Matt explains how Spirit evolved from an early digital production business into a multi-strand content company spanning originals, podcasts, branded content, YouTube channel management and new vertical video formats. He talks through Spirit’s revenue model, why digital growth demands a different mindset from traditional TV, and why building platform-native IP is a long-term entrepreneurial play rather than a quick fix.

The conversation also explores how audience data shapes development, why production companies need to think beyond single commissions, and what the next generation of super indies could look like in a world where content brands need to live across YouTube, podcasts, social video, streaming and linear.

Justin and Matt also discuss the rise of micro drama, the reality of making money in digital, the value of owning IP, and what legacy producers still misunderstand about the digital-first production economy. To close, Matt gives his take on the launch of Saturday Night Live UK and what it says about risk, ambition and the future of entertainment.

This is a sharp conversation for anyone working in TV, digital production, podcasting or social video who wants to understand where the content business is heading next.

If you work in production and want to understand how the digital-first economy really works, this episode is for you.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] On this week's TellyCast, I'm meeting with Matt Campion from Spirit Studios, one of the production companies at the Cutting Edge of the Digital First Revolution in the uk. How you doing? I'm alright. Good to see you. Yeah, you too. Um, I don't think we've ever done a, a, a long chat on TellyCast, have hardware and we've had chats, we've had short chats around events that we've done and, and we had a chat at mcom and, uh, but I don't think we've ever had a.

Sort of deep dive into, uh, into Spirit Studios? Not a proper one. No. No. Alright, well, um, well let's, uh, let's get into it then. And, um, one of the things that I think about Spirit is really interesting, um, particularly for probably more traditional TV uh, production companies who look at you and. You know, they see everything that you are doing and, and really, you know, one of [00:01:00] the, uh, one of the production companies at the cutting edge of, uh, the digital first space.

But, um, actually you've been going for about 15 years, uh, which is really surprising, right? Because I, and I know that you don't. Just do, uh, digital projects. You also, you know, you, you also do, um, uh, linear shows or you're still working in linear, if you like. Is that a phrase working in linear? Dunno, but, um, not, yeah, I don't think anyone's working in it.

It's still happening. No. Yeah, it's still happening. It's still, it's still holding on. Um, so why don't you take us right back to the beginning then. Of spirit and, uh, where you and Peter met your, uh, partner in the business. So Peter was my boss at Enderol before it became Enderol Shine, before it became Banerjee.

Um, and he was, uh, he ran digital media for [00:02:00] the, for the business and had, um, anyone that used to work there will remember, um, the sixth floor. Uh, Shepherd's Bush, I think it was 2006. Um, they, they had a, um, a, a studio show down in Bristol where they used to make deal on No Deal. We, um, launched Gala Bingo, had a, an interactive TV channel on Sky and um, I was hired into to go and run that.

And, um. What's, what's it? I was talking about this the other day. 'cause what's interesting about it is this was pre-social media, just No, it was on the cusp of Facebook just taking off. But we would, the channel was live eight hours every night and we had a team of about 40 people that would run different shifts and, um, people could buy tickets through the red button [00:03:00] and then.

My job as exec would be to oversee the channel and the, the games and the production model and, you know, and the marketing and all that stuff. And then what, what I would do is the following day after a show, I would, um, go in and I'd get the VHSs of the night before and I would get. The producers to write in the ticket sales against each game at the time against time code.

So I could then go in the next day and I would fill in a spreadsheet that would basically tell me, um, when ticket sales spiked or when they went up, when they dipped. And then I would watch back their time codes and see. What we did, um, and whether we could recreate that and what if there was something that happened then that like, you know, and essentially I had this, I had this ex, I'm a bit allergic to Excel spreadsheets.

Um. Um, and, um, but, but then I did get really obsessed with it. I, I [00:04:00] really like analytics. Um, but I got obsessed with this spreadsheet and essentially it was like the, it was me sort of coming up with my own analytics, um, in the way that we use it all the time though in digital, um, to see, you know, retention spikes, audience lifts, all those kind of things.

Um, engagement and, um, and so I met Peter doing that job and that was the thing that really sort of, I think it was that project that when we left Ermo and set up spirit was sort of the idea was could we create a business that, um, was really future thinking and could create. Um, products, programs, social media, builds, whatever it was that really could understand those digital audiences.

Learn from the results and, and build audience, grow audiences. And I've, I kid you not at the very beginning, 15 years ago, our sort of. [00:05:00] North Star was that we felt the future would be about not only being able to produce a show, but being able to, how know, but being able to know how to do all of the digital marketing around it and build noise around it.

And, um, it just took 15 years for, it took 15 years for the, for the, for the market to really mature. I suppose we were very early on, but in those early days, um, I suppose the first 10 years of spirit. We built, um, we built a name for ourselves in, in becoming a digital producer, we would spin off other people's shows.

So we do things like, we did the spinoff show for Made and Chelsea, and we did Skins and we did, um, Clee in, um, in Los Angeles. And then we helped build social media fan bases for who wants to be a Millionaire and Sony shows and all, all that kind of stuff. And then, um, a few years in. We, um, because we've been [00:06:00] going back to producing content, we, um, we got trigger happy recommissioned.

I dunno if you remember that about, probably be about 10 years ago now. Yeah. And we did two series of that for Channel four online, and then we did two TV specials and that's when we were like, oh, you know, actually, um, the, the market's taking a lot longer. Maybe we should go back into linear. Um, and then the standup sketch show was born, which became a long running series for I tv and we did multiple other TV shows here and there.

Um, and, and then, um, and then obviously lockdown happened. Uh, we had a change of ownership and, um, from our original investor, and then Channel four came on board four years ago, and Channel four really have helped change the, the whole sort of, um, face of spirit and the, the structure of the business and allowed us to invest in.

Um, people and, uh, we've got our own studio now and, um, [00:07:00] our own post-production and we were sort of a, a bit of a one-stop shop for content production and that allows us to be able to operate really seamlessly in the current market. And why did Channel four invest in you then? I mean, what was it that you, that, that stood out, uh, about Spirit that perhaps, you know, if we put ourselves four years ago.

S you know, the start of the decline or the noticeable start of the decline started to happen when it came, comes to linear tv. But what is it, what is it that they saw in you that made them want to invest in you? I think it was the, I think it was the fact that we were really multifaceted and that we still understood the traditional world.

We, we could operate in the traditional world, but we really were all about the new. And I think, um. I think it's really difficult to make money in [00:08:00] digital, and so if you're an entrepreneur that has to be able to survive off digital revenues, then you clearly know what you're doing. And I think the fact that when they, they looked at under the bonnet with Spirit and they could see the size of some of the platforms and the brands that we've built over the years.

Um, some of the big, um, brand podcasts that we've done, when I talk about brands, I mean the brands that we've created ourselves. When you look at The Lion Whisperer, when you look at our ability to, um, spin content off into the social world, um, we're able to, we're able to make money in that, in that space.

And we, we do it all the time for actual brands as well. And so I think we felt like a grownup. Version of, of, um, of a business from the new world. Mm-hmm. So, well, let's, let's talk about the business then, and the, the key pillars of [00:09:00] revenue because, uh, one of the reasons I created a, an event or one of the reasons that I get.

Uh, one of the things I get asked most is like, yeah, but how would you make money in digital? Which is why create event, uh, called that? You must get asked that all the time as well. Yeah. So can you just talk us through your different pillars of revenue where you generate, uh, uh, income? Yeah, so we do four things.

Um. We are called Spirit Studios because we run a number of different studios, which are essentially different disciplines in the business. So we make television, um, we call it originals. I think that's becoming more of the norm now. Um, and originals really is sort of longer form. Um, single or serialized content that can sit on a broadcaster, can sit on a streamer.

Um, it can even sit obviously on YouTube. Um, so we make originals. [00:10:00] Um, we then, and in that, and in that department, we were predominantly known for comedy for a long time, but now we make a lot of documentary. Um, this year I think we are. We're gonna be doing. Um, we've got a, a, a big order on true crime this year.

Um, we are doing a lot of weekly shows for Channel five. Um, we're doing drama. We, um, we're entering into a reality this year, and so the business on the television side is, is growing, but. It's growing in, in the new world, and I'll come back to that in a minute. We then make podcasts. Um, we produce a number of podcasts, but again, podcasts are, um, shows that are becoming the new television in some ways.

And, um. And we have a, a multi-camera studio with a team that [00:11:00] is, um, really knowledgeable, um, across digital and television. Um, we have, um, you know, we've invested in the set, uh, studio with multiple sets and, and all that and all that stuff, um, so that we can produce end, end-to-end quality visualized podcasts day in, day out.

Um, and we also do post-production in-house for that as well. We even do the online that allows us to sort of, um, that allows us to be really cost effective, but to also change the business, deal with the broadcaster, and I'll come back to that in a minute as well. Then we make branded content. We do a lot of branded content.

We work with, um. Third party agencies, um, and we do a lot in the sports arena, in in football, and in Formula One. Um, and then the fourth studio is we run a number of, uh, YouTube channels. So we've got round about 500 YouTube [00:12:00] channels and growing in our multi-channel network. Um, so that's distribution, that's digital distribution.

And so for us, there we are working with third party producers, like exploiting old catalogs. We're working with people that create original content. We obviously have a number of our own channels in that. In that MCN. Um, and we have, we have channel managers that help us grow those channels, get them into monetize monetization, and, um, and then obviously, um.

It's run like a professional network. Um, and for anyone that doesn't understand what a multichannel network is on YouTube, it is a professionally run network of YouTube channels. Um, there's not many of them in the world. We are very lucky to be one of the few. About 50, aren't there? There's about 50 of us.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, we little dot everyone on there who Little dot. Are, um, are the biggest in the uk, if not in the world. And, um, they are a phenomenal business, one of all three's biggest businesses. [00:13:00] Um, we hadn't really ever thought about doing that even though we had the, the, uh, the functionality and the capability, um, because we were a producer.

But as we really move now, as the industry rapidly changes, we. See ourselves having to be able to do all of it. Really, you've gotta be able to do production through to distribution, um, to be a real one-stop shop of the future. You know, our ambition really is to be a, is to be a next generation super indie and even a destination in the end where we could be the hub that people come to our spirits content.

Um, could we reinvent the sort of the, you know, the, the streamer model and, and be a one-stop hub for everything we do? Um. And so those four studios, they sort of feed into each other in lots of ways. And then obviously now there's the vertical content world that's come along, right? So you could say it's a fifth studio.

We're doing micro drama. We're also, um, about to start in reality [00:14:00] in that space. And that space really has come along and is really like, I don't think anyone ever saw that to, you know, saw that come in. And that's, that's sort of like, come. I remember once working with a, um, a mental health expert on our, um, IM whole, our mental health brand.

And, um, he, we were talking about how when people, uh, have, um, breakdowns and it's when they let their problems stack up, like a imagine I could stack of pancakes and then, um, all these problems build up and if you don't keep on top of your problems. If you don't keep that sort of self care and all that, then eventually you'll have a stack and then something, a juggernaut will come from nowhere and knock it over.

And that's why people have like these meltdowns. And that's pretty much what I've seen. That vertical drama, like the industry's gone, shit, that's, fuck, that's, oh no. Oh, and then all of a sudden this come along, gone bang, and then even the streamers are gone. What? And, and so you're seeing this thing [00:15:00] explode, um, generating billions and billions of dollars, um, being one of the, like wildfire across devices.

And then what we're seeing now is like the streamers and the social platforms all rush to try and get in on this market. And then if you look at, now at like a, a Netflix, Netflix has. Like really high end super like films and amazing series. It has podcasts now that we're seeing them really go into the market on.

It's got mobile games and verticals come in. And so really like the future is this sort of one stop entertainment hub and which is about retaining that customer all day long and giving them the best value for their subscription money. And so. No wonder they've rushed to add verticals to it. And so as a, as a business, we do those four disciplines, or there's five things, but actually IP 360 is our, um.

[00:16:00] It's our business model, and it has been for a long time, but it really makes more sense now than it's ever made before and people actually understand what we do. Because I think for a long time people didn't really understand what we, we were saying these words and they were like, what ip what? Um, but IP 360 really means that you can create a brand that.

Can serve its purpose as a linear show, it can serve its purpose. I sit on a streamer, it can go onto YouTube, it can go as a podcast, it could be a drama, you know, it can do lots of different things, um, all at the same time, because audiences are, we are in an attention war. Like it's, you know, the attention economy is, is all anyone's talking about.

And us as users are being pulled in so many different directions that actually like. What you've gotta do is hit them with your brand everywhere they are. And that's what we do, and that's our aim. And so our business model has changed. We still, we still do [00:17:00] commissions, obviously, like, you know, like we are here to build, um, revenue.

That's what, that's how business works. But at the same time, we, um, we also want to work with and are working with a number of broadcaster streamers. Um. Content finance talent to build. Always on three to five year builds. We, we we're looking long term, like how do we create a brand that can turn into a big juggernaut?

You know, you look at the Lion Whisper now, our biggest, it's been going for 12 years. It's huge. It's done billions of views. It's got millions of followers and subscribers. Um, it, it's its own business. And so. Um, for us, what we are doing now is working with lots of partners. We've managed to unlock that world because people now see us as that future production company that really is a safe pair of hands that goes, okay, we know we've seen you do this for the last 15 years.

We know that if we invest our money in you, [00:18:00] you're going to, you're gonna return on it. So what is it about, um, creating. That ip, what, you know, how can you tell what IP to create that's gonna live across all those platforms? Well, you can't. You can't. What you can't do is just.

Stick your finger in the air, pick an idea and and go with and go with it and hope for the best. Because there are lots of factors that change the shape of what works all the time. And I'll give you an example of what I mean by that is like a couple of years ago we had some big insight that, uh, creators.

Um, were starting to really work in the podcasting space and, and that food was a, a, an area that [00:19:00] lots of brands wanted to be in and to sponsor and to spend money in, but wasn't very well served. And so there's a, there's a gap there in the market, right? And so, um, we launched a couple of, um, projects, um, in that space and, um, really.

Popular with its audience, really high retention rates, but couldn't get them to break out. And then, and then within that 12 months of that, of that, of that show, um, not really getting to the levels that we wanted it to, you get new insight, which is we've seen now that the podcasting space has become so crowded that.

Only really big names work. So names that are really massive broadcasters that you've spent years listening to. Their voices maybe as radio stars or chat show hosts, they're the ones that are, have only got the [00:20:00] real chance of breaking through. And so what you see there is a maturity in the podcasting thing where podcasting has become like a TV chat show and actually it's become so mainstream that.

It's, it's, it's sort of really similar to television. And then you see that actually podcasting is suddenly flipped like that within 12 months to being more consumed on YouTube than other, any other platform. And so now your monetization models changed because previously it was all about listens. And listens would give you a higher CPM would, um.

So cost a thousand, um, listens would be, would be more than in video. Um, and so you would operate in a way that would allow, you would, would, would mean that your show would do lots of different things in audio in order to make more money. But now you've been hijacked by, by YouTube, which is a longer, slower burn and less money, right?

Until you get to real scale. And so you've gotta change all the time. The, the, we call it the moving [00:21:00] sounds of digital. Right? And so going back to your question, how do you pick a project? It's really difficult. Yeah. What, what you've got to do, I think, is look at, well, let's look at, let's take a good example, right.

So we've, it's been announced. We, uh, we are, um, doing a joint venture project with Hearst. So we work with Hearst a lot. We make a lot of true crime documentaries for them. Um, but we really wanted to launch something in the history space because we know that history's really big. I think a big evergreen subjects are, um, are where you can build legacy and brand in digital.

And so with Hearst, we wanted to, um, work out what could we do in the history space that felt really different. And so we went to Hearst and we said. How'd you fancy investing in a brand with us? And um, you know, they were really excited by [00:22:00] that. Um, and actually have seen they've launched their, their, uh, YouTube canvas project as well.

Yeah. Which is gonna do a suite of their own IP in the same way. Um, and so it was really good timing, but part of the, part of, part of the sort of puzzle there is, and I can't wait for people to see what we're gonna launch because I think it's really, really exciting because it's actually sort of slightly more entertaining.

But it's a really big, broad subject and it came with some real specific insight that we felt would, would be the key to unlocking the audience this, because we know there's a huge amount of search online for what? For what we're doing. Um, and so what we've got with them is a project that has a bus, a legacy business that knows how to monetize history already.

We've got a TV channel, sky History that is willing to do a first look on any TV output from the brand. So remember, the brand isn't just digital. The, the brand is digital plus linear or streaming. So it's, it's originals [00:23:00] plus digital. And so, um, we from, from Word, from the, from day one, we can launch something that is a weekly show that builds.

You know, a consistent, um, audience and has that, um, consistent weekly content that people love that they can watch and listen to and engage with the different places. But then that brand as it builds can also go off and do multiple TV series at the same time. And, um, and, and so like, because there's that Venn diagram of Sky History, us and Hearst, um.

It means that right from from the get go, there's an inbuilt audience for what we're doing. So I think you have to factor in lots of thinking about when you launch the mink of what I would really discourage people for doing is just going like, oh, I've, I've met. Some, I've met someone that really wants to launch a thing and let's give it a go because you could spend a long, long time just treading water.

Um, and you also need patience. That's the other big thing I've said to it. I've already said it [00:24:00] a few times, three to five years, like, don't think, think long term. A TV series might be a few episodes these days. It's four episodes if you're lucky. Um, but, but in digital, you've got to think of like three to five year builds because what, what you do in digital when you understand how it works, is that you.

You change path constantly and you iterate and you optimize and you, you get feedback and you see what's working and what's not working, and you tweak the system until you get the engine really, really purring. And it compounds over time, doesn't it? In terms of the amount of content you're building, more and more content in that library.

Your views never go down. Obviously you're, you know, it's only ever gonna go one way. Like once you start creating content, it's atomic habits. Have you ever read Atomic Habits by James Clear? No. Oh, there's a brilliant, um. I think it's one of the biggest newsletters in the world. 3, 2, 1. I recommend that to anyone that's, uh, watching or listening to this, go and go to James Clear's website.

Um, he wrote a book called Atomic Habits, which [00:25:00] essentially works for anything in life. It could work for fitness, it could work for business health. If you do, if you have, if you build a habit into your life, you do the same thing every day. You don't see the difference. On a daily basis. It's a bit like against the gym, isn't it?

Yeah. I've, I've never done more than two days in a row, so I wouldn't know what happens when you compound work in the gym. Um, I know what happens when you compound drinking every day. Yeah. Um, uh, but atomic habits are that thing of like, essentially it's tiny little atoms every day you're collecting the atoms and then after.

A year or two years, or however long it takes, um, that atomic explosion happens, and that's when you get that real lift off. And I would say private parts was, there's a, there's a graph, um, on the private parts podcast chart from years ago where for the first year, I look back at it often, [00:26:00] uh, it's the hockey stick effect.

It like did nothing for the first 12 months and then. In the January, the year afterwards, it suddenly went so steep and it was like all of a sudden that, that, like you said, compounded interest. It's, and what was, was that because of, presumably that was 'cause of all the learnings, all the episodes, you, you'd been tweaking and tweaking.

Tweaking then maybe one of those caught light right? And, and, and really hit the spot. And then, then obviously. The catalog starts to hit the spot as well. Remember, I could tell, I could give you a real world example of how it happened. So when we first started, it used to be Jamie and Francis and they were, it was two friends talking.

This is Jamie Lang, Jamie Lang Francis Ball, and they Exed and Chelsea Stars. And they would talk each week about their diary. So they would talk about, um, what they'd been doing during that week and there'd be funny moments, and then they would talk about really funny old things. And [00:27:00] then, um, and then they started realizing that the thing that people liked on social media was when they started talking about their awkward dating.

Sex, kissing, all that. All that's kind of like funny, the sorted secrets. That's why it was called private parts. Um, it was sort of like the stuff that you'd write in a diary, but you wouldn't say out loud. Um, they realized that those are the, those are the bits that were really taking off. And then we had a producer, Pete Straus.

Do you remember Pete joined us? Pete was, um. Was also working on, um, our comedy slate. So Pete was, um, who I developed the standup sketch show with, and Pete started obsessed with standup. We could always go standup, so he suggested that we started getting standup comedians in as guests. Now we started with the standups that were on the circuit, that we could get that fancy coming along and meeting Jamie and Francis.

Then bit by bit the word spread. This is the compound. [00:28:00] Compounding bit by bit the word spread that this was a really funny podcast to come on. So the names started getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and to eventually, we were having really big comedian names on the show, and the show became a comedy hit.

And then that was the moment where it suddenly took off because then we were getting big name comedians with big social fan bases that would come on the show and we could create really funny clips. And that's interesting, going back to the learning there is that, um. Looking at digital first, as you know, a lot of people are, are now looking at, you know, the commissions have dried up.

All the advertising revenue's gone into social video. Um, no more commissions. Where do we go? Let's look at digital. Lots of people seem to be doing well in digital. It's not. The lifeboat or it's not the immediate replacement for that, uh, loss of income, is it? I think that's really important to say. I think if you ran into the digital house, you'd be like, yeah.[00:29:00] 

What? Someone throwing me some armbands. Um, it's what I said earlier on. You got to, you got to, um, you got to kind of, it's, it's an entrepreneurial play. Yeah. And you've got to, you've got to like. Um, you've got to understand that it, it's one of those things that takes time. If, if you've, if you are entrepreneurial and you, and you understand about building business, then you have a one year, a three year, a five year, 10 year strategy that changes all the time.

You re, you re, you know, you re-update your, your strategy, but you have like, you have these missions and these goals and you have a north star. Digital's the same thing. And so don't create something, put it out and expect it to catch on fire. I mean, don't get me wrong, we've launched things that have, but they're an anomaly.

Mm-hmm. And they're difficult. You know, they's sort of like, that's like creating a number one hit, [00:30:00] you know? I think I do. It is a bit like a record business. Mm-hmm. Think of the record business, right? Look, look at how many recording artists don't make it, and then how many do. That's digital. Yeah. And, and so as a, you got, it's a mindset change and it's also a mindset change in the money as well.

Commissioning the, the traditional world is B2B one, business pays another. The digital world is B2C. It's direct to consumer, it's business to consumer. It's, um, you are, you have to get your heads around how most of little, little, little pockets of money, you know, thousands of little pockets of money rather than one big take paycheck, isn't it?

Yeah. And it's, uh, and you know, the, the, the key to this is, as you say, direct to consumer. It's about. Becoming your, the broadcaster yourself. You won't, that's the thing. You own it. And building that community and, and creating the community around the content that you are, that you are, uh, that you are creating.

Look at Goal Hanger. I mean, what an [00:31:00] incredible story. Yeah. Goal Hanger. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. I'm so pleased with them. Like they have built something that has come through Pure passion, you know, the rest is history, I think was one of their first. Mm. It's come through pure passion of. You know, you know, and, and obviously like they've got Gary like, and the rest is football and like that's, you know, it really does help to have that halo effect.

But they've built something that are, they, they really know their niches. They, they, they know their niches so well and they're really good at finding their talent that are gonna front their shows. And then, I mean, they don't need anyone else. Because now what they're doing is what the future is, is what we are doing.

You, you own your own IP and then you sell it to the broadcasters or the streamers? Yeah. Yeah. What's their deal with? What's their deal with Netflix? 10 million or something? Yeah. And it's licensing, it's live events. They're, they're, they're doing a big show at the, on the South Bank, aren't they? I think this year, later on this [00:32:00] year with a number of their, uh, uh, their formats.

Um, yeah, it's very, very, very clever play. So, so would you say then, um, as you said, it's a longer term play, it's a more entrepreneurial play, um. Uh, do you think there is a risk of some businesses jumping feet first into this Without really the, you know, without, you can spend a lot of money quite quickly, can't you?

In digital. You, you we're already seeing it. Yeah. Yeah. What he saying? It, and it's, and it's. You've gotta find a Yeah, that's my, yeah, well that worries me. You're gonna see, you're gonna see a lot of, you're gonna see a lot of money wasted and, um, and a lot of, um, unfortunate. What's the word? Like I think [00:33:00] it's gonna put people off because if they don't get instant, everyone's used to instant success.

You get a commission, it's gratification. You've done it. Yeah. It's an instant win. And it's big money. Well wait. Not anymore, but you know, at one point it was, unless you're high-end tv. Um, and so like if you, if you go, if you go um, two, two feet first into digital and you run at it and you put. And you hire a load of people to do it, you're gonna waste money real quick.

What you've gotta, what you've gotta do is find a way of, um, investing in it. So it feels like to begin with like a, a. Business passion project. I think that's probably, unless look, once you're establishing you know, what you're doing, then great. Like all the big investment because you know what you're doing, right?

Mm-hmm. But even if we've, even now spirit after 15 years, we, we, we can raise significant investment to build digital projects because we're a safe pair of hands, but we [00:34:00] wouldn't, we wouldn't ever spend the money. In a stupid way, we'd still, we still go lean and mean and build things. A minimal viable product.

You've heard that a million times because the things fail and things don't, uh, catch fire. And finding that that real hit isn't the easiest thing to do. It's the record label model. Mm-hmm. You know, like you turn up the investment once, you know, you've seen real signs. But don't go into this investing in it in a big way.

Try and find a way of, of doing it cheaply and learning and seeing how, you know, like, um, what I love the most about the business at the moment, and the business has been through so many different iterations over the years. But what I love about the business at the moment is that everyone in the office is so excited about growth.

We keep, I keep saying to him, it's funny how like linear's managing decline, digital's managing growth, and every [00:35:00] day on, on the, um, the group chats across all the different projects. You can see people feeding in graphs and new milestones being hit and the new figures go up on the board and like, um, and ah, we've just hit monetization or, you know.

It's exciting. It's what? It's watching something. It's watching your baby grow. Yeah. And it's, and it's seeing that success and then that kind of, I always had right at the very, very beginning this, like, this sort of dream that the, the white coats would meet with the creatives once a week and now it happens.

I mean, they don't wear white coats. Mm. Um, so that's basically like the distribution team, uh, who's overseeing. The thumbnails and the, and the titles and the, the SEO and the discoverability and the launch process and all of that coming together and feeding back to the creative teams to say, you know, what we did on that lesson last episode.

It's interesting. It's that, it's back to, you said the red button when you, uh, when you were back at, uh, end was saying [00:36:00] a bit that actually worked. Um, yeah, yeah, it's kind of the same, right? It's exactly the same. That, that was the bit where, you know, I'd spent, uh, years, um, in Live, live tv, um, being a studio director and, and then when I took that job at Ender Mall, that was the first time that I'd started seeing.

Results Audience interaction and an audience feedback on content, because that doesn't really exist on, it didn't exist before social media. And so like, yeah, so now like the team, I mean, I mean, I say they meet weekly. They, they, they, they talk all the time, like throughout the day they're talking. In fact, just before I came here today, uh, we were chatting about, um.

We were talking about, uh, uh, one of the shows that we make for Channel five, catching Up with the Royals, um, about how, um. There's one bit that's become really, really big with the audience and we're getting like tons of emails and [00:37:00] comments and like interaction comes from all over the place, the engagement.

And so this week they, you know, we've got a recording, um, on Wednesday and they're going to double down on, on, um, part one on read on doing more of that particular thing. And so like. Because they know that when they clip that out, it works and it builds, and they know that they're getting, um, subscribers off the back of it.

And so like, that's the kind of thing that, like, you can't do Intel in television, which don't get me wrong, I love making tele like, it, it's brilliant. Um, being able to work on, um, on a really big project and, uh. And, um, you know, and have that kind of level of budget. But, um, the one thing you don't get in tell is that instant feedback and you can't change anything instantly.

Where now interestingly, the the vertical content world, right? Those apps have AI behind them. And so if one of the micro drama films isn't performing well or drops off at a certain episode point, they can [00:38:00] reedit and reload. And try and keep the audience, hook the audience for longer. Yeah. That's in, that's, that's so the idea of picture lock doesn't exist in the digital world, which is, it doesn't, what's free, what's really freeing, isn't it?

And it's, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just listening to what the audience says and like, and, and creating content for them that, you know, that they're, that they're commenting on and they're feeding back on. And like, you know, like, um, having, there's so much to keep up with. Algorithms you have to keep up with, like in, I dunno if you've seen, but Instagram now have changed their algorithms from highly edited clips.

Um, like we've all sort of seen, you know, a lot of our trailers for our pods, uh, have, you know, like our, our sort of re dynamic and have lots of graphics and music and they, they, they hooky, you know. But they are deprioritizing those edits and they're moving more towards selfie video, people being authentic and telling you what's coming up on [00:39:00] this week's show.

Yeah. And actually talking to you like a human. Yeah. Because I suppose because of the rise of ai. Yeah. But, and, and so, um, you've gotta keep on top of that all the time and that changes. Yeah. So finally then, um, before we go into story of the week, um. What does the next phase of Spirit Studios look like then?

Um, you've talked about, you're in branded content, you're in podcasts, you're in traditional tv, you're in 360, creating those brands right across for every, every platform you're in. Micro drama, um, other vertical video projects. Uh, what's next then? What's, what's, what, what really interested me is what you said about, uh, the super indie and building a super indie of the future in this sort of digital space.

I mean, is that, is that, is that the future? Is that what you are absolutely focused on and what does that look like? Yeah. Yeah. [00:40:00] That is, I think that is our, that is our sort of, definitely our North Star is. I think what you'll see us do over the next few years is build out multiple brands that you see everywhere.

Um, and lots of them. Some will work, some won't work, but really doubling down on that. Um, we are building more and more into scripted, um, because I, I, I do think that. Spirit has a part to play in high-end tv. I do. I I kind of feel like what we're doing is creating, um, IP that we can scale to global success.

That doesn't always have to be like a premium, high-end premium content at that, at the scale version of it. It could be that could be just a podcast that the world loves. But, um, as we move more into scripted, um. With our, with our production capabilities, I think we've got a real opportunity there, um, because it's moving into the formats that we know [00:41:00] that really entertain people and, and it's the lean back and the lean forwards.

And so if our future, I think I would say that in the next three to five years, you will see us build more brands. You will see us move into a bigger studio environment that has. VR capability and allows us to do more as a business in a, in a self-contained studio environment. Um, and then maybe there'll be some rolling up of some other businesses to, to, to, to.

Be able to facilitate doing more of that and to own more of that market. But could the future, I dunno, this is really future gazing, but like, would we become whatever the, whatever diversion of the streamer is in the first place in the, in the future, you know, whether that's an app or whatever it is, whatever that, whatever format takes, could there be a thing where spirit starts making sense of a certain [00:42:00] particular genre or a certain type of entertainment or something and that literally has.

Those, all those different versions that we've just talked about within that, within that space, I think that's what's really exciting. Like we're working on some really, really exciting projects at the moment that do drama. True story. Podcasting, lots of digital, social spinoff all under one brand from a launch.

That's one of the big projects we're working on at the moment, and like that just feels super exciting to me. And that feels like the future where you, you see this content everywhere. Mm-hmm. Everything everywhere, all of the time. So finally we're gonna go into Story of the Week, uh, which is something obviously we do every week on the show, um, which is essentially a TV or a content industry story that's caught your eye in the past seven days, Matt.

So what's your story of the week? Well, it's got to be Saturday Night Live uk 'cause I think that's the thing that everyone's talking about. [00:43:00] Um, and I get the feeling we're gonna disagree on this. Um, well, we might, um, I, I, so you love it, don't you? Well, uh, well, no. What I'm gonna say is that I am really impressed with the launch.

I'm gonna be honest, I'm thought the trailers and the promos. Weren't brilliant and I thought, I didn't think, and in fact I think it was more my wife who's like not in the industry, says, I dunno, what's that shit? I dunno what that is, what it means or what it's about. And I think that makes a lot of sense.

It's just a bunch of comedians. That, um, running down the street on a Saturday night out there was about the, the assumption that people knew about what the SNL brand was. Right? Yeah, yeah. Which is, you know, yeah. Which many people do, but I think lots of people don't as well. You know, I think, I don't, I don't, I, that the young, I don't, a lot of people under 30 do.

Mm-hmm. [00:44:00] Um, because it feels like it's something that, like you, we only know about it in the UK through social media really. Because the sketches go viral. Um, and we know there's a legacy brand and we might have seen it here and there clips here and there, but it's not something that's on here, is it, that you can watch all the time.

Um, and so anyway, I I, I had a, I had a vested interest because it's got some x standup sketch show talent in it, um, in different roles. On screen and behind the scenes. And so like I'm really pleased with them that they're getting a really big break and that there's a lot of eyes on this project. Um, I thought Tina Faye was an interesting.

I mean, it's kind of like passing the Batten like that, that's what I felt like, that Lauren Michael's exec, it felt you can f you can feel the heritage on it. So it felt like it had a lot of America's backing and blessing. Um, and then I was like, oh man, because I, the first time I saw it was [00:45:00] like, great bunch of talent, but quite young because the American, the American talent, they're like all different ages, right?

Mm-hmm. I was like, there's quite a young talent base. Am I gonna be, am I gonna be able to take them seriously doing mm-hmm. The political satire and all that. You know what, like Sunday morning, my socials were full of all the sketches and I looked, when I looked at the SNL Instagram account first thing in the morning, it was under 10 K followers.

I know the last time I looked it was 28 yesterday. Like it was rapidly growing. Um, and then I read last night that Donald Trump had shared the, the Stan sketch and um, and then you kind of go like, actually there's a lot riding on this. Um. To pull off a live sketch show for 75 minutes on a weekly basis is no mean feat.

That's really anyone that doesn't, has never done worked in live. I mean, it's, it's really hard to do that. Yeah, but they've got no shortage of budget. Have there? Let's face it. I mean [00:46:00] this is like, they haven't, you know, huge broadcaster and this is for them a premium. A premium product. I mean, you imagine the politics getting this together.

You know, first of all, it's like what's funny to Americans and what's funny to Brits, right? That's one thing that separates us is common language and, and sense of humor, but in most cases, but, um, I. I dunno. I mean, I think it got, viewing figures were about 250,000 I think, which is pretty good at Beat Channel four, which you would imagine with the amount of, you know, uh, a new launch, uh, and the amount of, you know, uh, hype around the show.

Um. I dunno. I mean, uh, I, you know, for me it's like, let's, let's, it'd be really interesting to see what that drop off is next week. Yeah. I agree with that. I don't, I don't disagree with what you're saying, but those are the reasons why everyone thinks it would fail. Because it, because it's too big. It's, it's rid, it feels ridiculous.

Yeah. It feels like [00:47:00] the most ridiculous commission you've heard of in this state of the industry. Yeah. Well, it begs the question why. Well, I think Sky are, um, going through some big changes, aren't they? Um, they're owned by the company that makes SNL in America. So there's a legacy thing there. There's um, there's a globalization of content.

There's. Social media at play. I keep banging on about it. IP 360, I think SNL is one of the original IP 360 brands. Like they've got an opportunity. Yes, it's expensive, but they've got an opportunity to build something here that's never been done before in the uk. 'cause we've seen so many of these late shows Try and fail.

Do you remember that run years ago that ITB did, uh, on a weekly night and they had different Yeah. Each week they had a different host take on five nights. Yeah. For some reason we don't, we like, for some reason we all sort of want to like the late show in the uk. Like we [00:48:00] all watch clips of, um, all the late, late shows from America and all that stuff, but they just don't seem to land because.

We, well, maybe there's not enough money to be able to do it justice or there's not enough guests. Maybe America's just a much bigger place, right? So like here the site, the, the, you know, you'd be recycling things all the time, guests stories, all that kind of stuff. In America it can run and run and run.

But the, but Saturday Night Live, we, um. I think, I think, do you know what it's, I think it's just, I, I just expected to see the opposite in terms of the results and what I saw was people going, oh my God, that was amazing. Well done mu, lots of teething problems. Like you could tell there was a, even Tina Fay, I felt was a bit nervous at the beginning, like her monologue, you know, it's a new thing.

Everyone, the pressure of that is, is really big. But as you said. They've spent a lot of money. There's a really brilliant writing team on it. Really brilliant production team, really great set. And, you know, uh, the live team [00:49:00] where, where's the training ground for life these days? Mm-hmm. And yet they executed it brilliantly.

I mean, there was some really good moments in in it. Whether or not every sketch worked or not, sort of irrelevant for me. It's kind of like that's a good start. It's a really good start. And it's now been extended to, I think eight episodes, isn't it? From six. So, yeah. And Peacock's bought it, so distribution's working already.

Yeah. Um, and that will have come already off people seeing rehearsal tapes and all that stuff, you know? Mm-hmm. And so like, I don't know. As, as you said, there's a lot of, there's a lot of money to, there's a lot of money there to fill in terms of recoup recoupment. Yeah. But it, it does put sky on the map and Sky now are doing these, but, you know, sky is starting to, these bundles with Netflix and everything.

I mean, there's a lot, you know, there's a lot more to play. They're, they're sort of, there's been the talks about them in ITV, there's, there's like, there's a lot to play for. Like if you're gonna compete at the top. Go big or go home. [00:50:00] Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, that's a good, uh, good point to end on then, Matt. Uh, thank you for coming on TellyCast.

It's been great having a chat in your studio. In the studio. Yeah. Which is, uh, which is great. And your great production team. We will always look after us. So, um, thank you for that. And, uh. And what's, what's next, what's next out of the gate for you Then, just as a, what's the next new project that we're gonna see on socials or on a podcast or, or vertical or what's the next thing to, to look out for from spirit?

Uh, Sally Lin's, a night in with Sally Lindsay comes, starts next week. Channel five, right. Uh, launches next Wednesday. Alright, fantastic. We'll, uh, we'll take a look at that. So Matt, thanks again and uh, all the best with Spirit.