Andrew Eastel on Building Digital-First IP Beyond Broadcast

This week on TellyCast, Justin Crosby is joined by Andrew Eastel, Managing Director of Middlechild Productions, for a fascinating conversation about how traditional TV production companies can adapt to the digital-first production economy.

Andrew explains how Middlechild launched the hugely successful Gardening With Alan Titchmarsh YouTube channel, why factual producers may be better placed for social video than they realise, and how TV indies can build long-term IP businesses beyond traditional commissioning.

The discussion explores YouTube strategy, digital monetisation, brand partnerships, broadcaster pre-sales, connected TV viewing habits, audience behaviour, and why producers should think like entrepreneurs when building social video channels.

Andrew also reveals how Middlechild’s new digital division Wildchild is developing future-facing content brands in areas including pets and survival, and explains why digital-first production could eventually create more stable long-term work for freelancers.

This episode is essential listening for anyone working in TV production, social video, YouTube strategy, digital-first content, or the wider creator economy.

Key Topics:
• The success of Gardening With Alan Titchmarsh on YouTube
• Why TV producers still have valuable advantages in digital
• How broadcasters may increasingly acquire digital-first IP
• Building long-term content brands beyond commissioning
• YouTube as a search engine and connected TV platform
• Monetisation strategies beyond YouTube ad revenue
• Why producers need a business model before a format idea
• The future of factual TV and digital-first production

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Transcript

Justin Crosby: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Justin Crosby, and welcome to another episode of TellyCast. My guest this week is Andrew Eastel, who's MD of Middlechild Productions. Andrew, welcome to the show. Thank you very much for having me. Great to see you. Thank you for, uh, making your way. I think you're on the, on the way down the country at the moment.

You've just been up in the northeast, haven't you? And you're on your way to the south coast. Yeah. We have, 

Andrew Eastel: uh, an office, uh, Northern Child in Newcastle, and we have Middlechild in Brighton, so I have quite a commute between the offices. Yeah. So been there this week. 

Justin Crosby: Brilliant. Well, thanks for, thanks for dropping in, uh, on your journey.

Uh, we recently spoke at the How to Make Money in Digital event and uh, re- it was a really fascinating conversation, which we'll touch on and maybe go a little bit deeper in a couple of areas, uh, that we touched on there. But first of all, just for anybody that doesn't know Middlechild, just give us a bit of a background of Middlechild Productions and- Yeah

a bit of a history and what sort of business you are. So 

Andrew Eastel: we're essentially a traditional TV production [00:01:00] company, sort of a, that's our heritage. Set up by David Sumner about 15 years ago, and I came on board not long of- after that. We make factual content for all of the major linear broadcasters in the country.

Um, we do a lot of, uh, returning series, observational documentaries for Channel 5, for UKTV. We do current affairs singles for the BBC. We do history stuff for Channel 4. So, as I say, very sort of traditional TV production. We were originally in London and then opened up in Brighton and, a few years ago, 

Justin Crosby: in 

Andrew Eastel: Newcastle.

Justin Crosby: Okay. And first of all how are you finding it at the moment, the market? Things have changed, right, in the, in the last two years for production businesses like yours. So, what's... Give us your tales from the frontline a little bit. Ha. Um, I think we're 

Andrew Eastel: okay. So I think that's sounds super positive.

Yeah. [00:02:00] No, uh, we, we, you know, we're, we're busy and that's a really good thing, and I know how difficult it is to be busy at the moment. It's definitely harder and I think not just the obvious, harder to get a commission because the linear broadcasters potentially don't have the sort of money that they once had, and they're commissioning less and so on.

But I think harder as well because at least for the last maybe two years now there's changes happening everywhere across the industry very much at the broadcasters, you know, our primary customers. And we don't have any control over how they are adjusting their businesses or what they might be doing.

So I think for production companies Really predominantly still chasing the same model of commissioning that we've always have done. It sometimes feels like we're doing that slightly blindly. Um, and it's always been to a degree like that. There's lots of varials- variables behind the scenes that we, uh, aren't aware of when it comes to their [00:03:00] commissioning decisions.

Uh, but now i- it's, it sometimes feels like an even bigger guessing game. Um, and I feel for the broadcasters and the, and the commissioning editors that we work with, and y- we know enough to know that that's just as hard for them on their side. Yeah. Um, and I'm sure many of them are unsure about what the future holds entirely, and I think from a traditional linear television perspective, we just all hope that they can re...

I don't know what the right word would be, but reposition themselves maybe within the industry to be back to a consistent level of commissioning, even if it's not to the same sort of volume or price 

Justin Crosby: point that- Yeah ... it once was. Yeah. Well, I th- I think you've very clearly articulated the, the, the problem that pretty much every indie and certainly factual indie or a vast majority of factual- indies in the UK are, uh, are feeling right now. We're obviously seeing, huge drops in [00:04:00] commissioning, and the commissioning that is happening is tighter on budgets as well which is putting more and more strain on, on, on independent production companies. The reason for that, obviously, less viewers, and those eyeballs have shifted onto social.

And attention onto, uh, traditional models as, you know, everybody's attention has shifted into and fragmented and gone into different ways. We all know that. We've spoken about that a lot, a lot on TellyCast, obviously. But what I'm particularly interested in is your business and, and how you've adapted and y- how, how are you, you are looking to adapt and planning to adapt to this new digital-first production landscape, uh, which, yeah, I think you've done really successfully and, and it's a, a really interesting case study.

Your Gardening With Alan Titchmarsh channel, which is YouTube, basically a digital-first channel. Yeah. Um, te- tell us about the channel, first of all. So I 

Andrew Eastel: think in digital, [00:05:00] digital in general for us we have ... We started doing some digital commissions from the broadcasters, so, Channel 4, the digital, uh, 4 digital, and for BBC, and we, we've We've always been doing quite low-cost television, I think high volume amongst everything that we do.

So it wasn't something essentially a lower sort of price point that we were worried about doing. So we know how to make stuff as streamlined as we can make it from a sort of budgetary perspective. So with that in mind, I think we, um, thankfully feel sort of a bit more primed for moving in the direction that some of the industry seems to be.

We started, uh, working with a TV exec called Matt Young who came to us, and he had lots of experience working on gardening shows, some of which were with Alan Titchmarsh. And at the time, we were discussing potentially doing some kind of digital [00:06:00] play. We had done, uh, some research and looked at some data via a guy called Hawar who had come to us and said that if we had unlicensed content from television, he could repackage that up and sort of pump it out through all the social media platforms, and there would be a sort of steady stream potentially of some revenue coming from that footage which was otherwise just sitting around.

We had spoken to him about doing some original content and, and he was saying obviously that that was almost certainly somewhere that would be a a sort of higher earner, if you like. A chance of actually making some better revenue via those platforms rather than rehashed, uh, older content.

So when Matt came in, we started talking to him about Alan and the potential of us putting together something with him. The other thing we had done in the background before that was look at genres within uh, mainly the YouTube space, I think that potentially would do well, not just with an audience, but [00:07:00] with brands.

Because we recognized early on, still knowing very little, but knowing enough to know that the revenue that we would generate from a YouTube channel via the YouTube ads wasn't gonna sustain something like Gardening with Alan Titchmarsh, for example. Wasn't gonna sus- sustain something like we might make as a TV producer.

Yeah. Gardening had come up as one of those areas that is not only a, a popular area of content obviously. There isn't loads of really high-profile people doing that in the online space. It's not like gaming or, or beauty, for example. And also that there are clearly quite big gardening brands, and potentially they didn't have loads of place, places, other places to, to spend their money.

So it ticked a lot of boxes. 

Justin Crosby: Um- It's a massive 

Andrew Eastel: niche, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, the fact is a lot of us have got gardens. Yeah. And, and there are a few- areas like that, right? I always for some reason go to fishing as one of those. Yeah. It's one of those sort of surprising areas [00:08:00] that actually there's lots of an awful lot of people involved in that and passionate about that.

So there's a big market, there's a community that you could tap into. But there will also be brands commercially who don't have loads of places to spend their money at the moment. So they're almost not part of that thinner spread of advertising spend, which is part of the reason that the linear broadcasters are, are struggling a little bit more.

So obviously we then had to, you know, with, with Matt's help, who's been amazing speak with Alan and Alan's agent and do the usual stuff with that. I s- I say the usual stuff because actually, i- that is still our bread and butter, speaking to to talent and doing deals with those people and understanding the standards that they would expect and a- and the quality of the output that they would expect is really key to, to sort of us being able to do anything for television in the linear sense or for the digital channel.

And Alan and his agent were excited [00:09:00] about the possibility of doing it. We treated it and still do very much like a traditional television broadcast arrangement and we film it in much a similar way. And that's not necessarily because we have to and, and, and in this world things are definitely more streamlined, but our experience knows that our talent, Alan, is used to those sorts of things.

You know, used to it being done properly essentially, and that's a skill that, we have, uh, that potentially not everyone would. So we, we are in many ways looking at the things that we can do and taking advantage of that, if that makes sense. Yeah. 'Cause- 

Justin Crosby: Absolutely. I mean, it's almost, uh, uh, it's almost like a, a, I'd say a perfect recipe in terms of you have talent who's really, really well known with an agent who's, uh, uh, with an outlook and an agent who's, who are really interested in experimenting with new [00:10:00] opportunities.

You have a really experienced production company making longer form content. You also have a huge growth in older viewers on YouTube who are used to watching longer form content. Mm-hmm. And naturally, uh, and obviously that, uh, explosion of older viewers, not only older viewers, but more and more viewers watching on their connected TVs at home- Mm-hmm

wanting a t- a, a, a traditional broadcast experience with, uh, a well-loved personality and trusted personality and, and, in an area that's not really b- being well served. So those are all the key ingredients for, for success really. Yeah. And 

Andrew Eastel: I think it's not- You then and us at the time make it sound really easy.

It, y- you're absolutely right, they, they tick all the boxes, and we kind of assumed they would. But I think all of those variables, um- But then it's how 

Justin Crosby: do you fund it, right? Yeah. Is the, is- Well, there's, there's, 

Andrew Eastel: there's how do you fund it, but also I think if you think about other ideas like that you do run aground at some point quite quickly.

[00:11:00] It's quite interesting that not quite all those variables aren't quite all there- ... to make something work. And I, I'd, I'd add into that things like going to a really high-profile talent now, let's say, uh, in, in any kind of subject area or, or a presenter, just a general presenter, and they quite possibly have a really strong presence online already.

Mm. So they, they, they have all of their socials tied up, and they, they do maybe do a bit of YouTube, and they certainly will be doing Instagram and, and TikTok. They may well have commercial deals with people already, with brands- ... that limit them from doing other things. So y- you, that, we have to play that in as a factor because for us as a business, we don't want to be a gun for hire just being in this case, for example, the production company behind Alan's YouTube channel.

We want to create a brand that has a community that comes around it, and as that grows, have revenue sources that, that change and expand all the [00:12:00] time that will pay back the money obviously we've invested into into producing the channel but also eventually create a profit for a business.

And if you don't have that that room to do that because other things are tied up the talent already does a podcast, or the talent's already done a million books, or they've already got their own merchandise line- Yeah ... whatever it might be then that becomes harder. So ticking all those boxes is, is definitely tricky.

But y- I think we definitely bring to the table, when I, when I say we, I don't mean just Middlechild, I mean, experienced TV producers. I think we bring something to the table which allows us to carve out potentially our own space in this digital world that the creators that have been doing this for a long, long time aren't necessarily able to do quite as well.

Yeah. Um, and that's really positive because that's coming to something that feels like we've missed the boat on, but actually there's probably a whole [00:13:00] load of things that if we think carefully about where our skillsets are- Yeah ... only we could do- Yeah ... properly. A- again, when I say we, the producers, the, the companies, the freelancers that are working in the television industry at the moment, there's an awful lot we can do that- Isn't being done yet, I think, in those spaces 

Justin Crosby: Yeah.

And I think that's the key. I think it's about your strength and y- your superpowers, if you like, as a, as a business. And, you know, it's easy, I think, to look at digital first and be a bit exasperated and feel a little bit, hopeless and helpless, you know, thinking, "Oh, we've missed the boat. We don't understand all the, you know, what all the, uh, creators are doing.

We can't possibly compete. It's too late." But actually, you know, the, uh, that's why I think it's such a great case study is the fact that you're playing to, you know, you've got, you've identified a sort of almost like a, like a Goldilocks project in terms of everything's right, uh, and also your skill sets are perfect in order for [00:14:00] you to deliver on that.

So what was the, the general thinking about moving into this space as well as a business? I mean, you talked a bit earlier, you know, we talked about it's difficult times. Is it really just looking forward as a, as a future-proofing exercise and a, and a, you know, a key strategic move for you as a business?

Andrew Eastel: I 

Justin Crosby: think, 

Andrew Eastel: I don't, I, I, I don't even 100% know if we still know. That would be the not the best answer to that , but an answer. We love making television, and we have a like all production companies our size, have a, a structure and a setup and overheads essentially that are built to be fueled by the revenue that we might generate each year from traditional linear television commissions.

And it's very hard to then go, "Well, actually, let's just, move everything over to this digital scenario," a completely different model because that model is [00:15:00] completely different. So, so the revenue stream is not the same. It doesn't come at the same time. The money doesn't come in at the same time.

Mm-hmm. Um, there's longer strategic plays in digital, which may well pay off better than p- potentially a, a, a television commission at some point. But our companies are set up to pay people's wages and, and, and premises and everything, uh, based on the revenue that we get from television. So I think we are, we still see linear television as, as a, as our sort of main source of income.

But I think especially when things seem like they're getting harder or we're not busy, we're, uh, entrepreneurs, and we're creative people and, and much like the rest of the production community, and so you are always looking for where you can essentially make some more money to cover your costs and to make sure everyone's getting paid properly.

So it's natural to go, "There could be an opportunity [00:16:00] here that our skills could be applied to that-" Actually could help us generate some of that revenue. At the same time, it's at least positioning us in, on that path because if things ... None of us know yet quite h- how things are gonna readjust at the broadcasters, you know, within the community in general.

But if it does go down that road in some form almost completely then at least we're, we're doing that. And I think that, to be honest, it's probably that bit more than anything else. Mm. There was the creativity and just finding us an opportunity, but also just positioning ourselves to at least be trying that and seeing how that worked out for us, but also more broadly if that is the direction that things go in.

And I think at the moment it does seem to be that is the way even though, we're still set up to operate like a TV production company and, and, and that's what we do. And then just on that front, I think there are some TV production companies [00:17:00] who will really be suffering at the moment because, um, they may be most directly affected by the things that aren't really being commissioned.

But then there are, there is still premium television being commissioned. Um, there seems to still be money for that. Granted largely in sort of entertainment at the moment. But I think at some point, you know, this is this is the nature of the industry. It might be that they go, "Actually, we're spending a lot of money on entertainment," and, and it's a punt and they don't all work.

What has always worked is documentary and observational documentary and real people doing real stuff. And, maybe that swings back and some of that premium money- Yeah ... is spent on the things that we do already. We also have done a lot of low-cost, high volume. As I, as I imagine, to be honest, most of the production, the majority of the production community out there in terms of companies is not making the premium stuff.

They're making- Yeah ... the lower cost stuff. And I do think that certainly for the time being, linear broadcasters still need that to fill their schedules. Yeah. So it could be a time for all of us at this sort of level, [00:18:00] uh, to capitalize on that. So, uh- Yeah ... I think there's some positivity in it. But at the same time, we don't know where that's gonna end up, so we should have an eye on where else this could move towards and, and that's what we're doing.

And I think, um, we've had a really good experience with with the Allen channel. And it's definitely gonna ... we're gonna do more because we can see the potential in it. It's just getting that balance, and I think I speak for, you know, all the production companies. It's like, oh, my God, well, how much do we, how much time do we spend trying to chase that, and do we have enough time to survive whilst we wait for that to pay off?

And, and how much time do we spend on, uh, developing TV ideas? It's a real, you know, it's a balance. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. There's so many, so many points there that you make that you know, that are really interesting, fascinating, pressing, and, uh, I mean, one, one- One point is obviously you've seen how the neighborhood has performed and, uh, and so that's, you know, perhaps a pointer in terms of the, like you say, some of those higher budget decisions that have been made by broadcasters [00:19:00] and, and how they're developing, um- It's hard 

Andrew Eastel: to know, isn't it?

Because what we do get told a lot, it, um, and understandably, is that things aren't really commissioned for the overnights anymore. For the overnight numbers, uh, uh, just don't seem to matter as much anymore. And that makes sense, and we don't know how well that might do on ITVX- Yeah ... for example. And they're smart people behind them.

They, they may see the overnights as disappointing, but they may have a quite a good business strategy for how ultimately that content pays off in the long run digitally. It's, it's hard to know. Yeah. But I, I also think that if you're getting good overnights, then you are attracting more expensive advertising on your channel at that point.

So if you're doing over a million somehow on Channel 4 or Channel 5, for example, that's a valuable piece of factual content. And if that factual content is, is obstock, and it does seem from our perspective, you know, we are still [00:20:00] thankfully getting commissioned for the series that we make in that space.

They do a really solid job. And if they take lots of punts and they don't pay off with the bigger price stuff, you'd hope that there's also some more cautionary, but safer bets- Mm ... on that sort of factual obstock type content that will also help fuel a lot of the smaller production companies out there, and maybe it settles a bit more into that.

It's just hard to know. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. I mean, one, one of the things just I mean I, I don't watch linear TV anymore, but I happened to go to football game away the other, uh, the other week and sat down, laid on the hotel bed, turned on the hotel TV and I thought, oh, it almost felt a bit of a novelty turning on a telly and laying down rather than going straight to your phone.

Mm. Phone. And I just looked at the EPG and it was really interesting to see on Channel 4 and Channel 5, there were two digital first shows playing out at the same [00:21:00] time. Mm-hmm. There was, uh, Piers Morgan uncensored and- Mm-hmm ... TFI Friday. Yeah. Both of which are YouTube First shows. Yeah. And that f- certainly to me feels like, you know, the model of the future in terms of TV just being one part of the production, the universe, the IP universe that a producer needs to consider.

It's part of the ecology, 

Andrew Eastel: I think. And, and, and it already is as you just said, and I think you're right, I think there'll be more of that And hopefully it's just a mix of all of it. Mm. You know, will linear broadcasters end up just acquiring content from digital spaces or, or archive? L- maybe, but will there actually just be a really long period where they are commissioning original content, but they also do require more content to come from those sources?

In which case, as producers, where we're positioning ourselves at the moment, you should be doing both, right? Yep. Because you can be the seller and you can be the company pitching [00:22:00] an idea for the broadcaster to be commissioning from you in the traditional way. Yeah. And if we're able to generate our own content and we have a brand that has various sources of revenue and a really long shelf life potentially, that's a nice position to be in if you're selling some of that content back to a broadcaster.

And not just in the UK, you know, there's plenty of other territories it can be repackaged for, and it's something that we're we're now in a conversation that's really far down the line with selling a series using essentially the content we filmed on the Alan Titchmarsh channel- Yeah ... uh, back to a broadcaster with a bit of new filming and obviously some nice voiceover and, and we'll re-edit those shows down to suit the, um, the channel and, and the idea for the series.

But, you know, we're doing we are, that's another revenue source for us, not one that we're reliant upon. And we're providing a channel with content that's much more affordable for them. It 

Justin Crosby: makes [00:23:00] an awful lot of sense. Makes an awful lot of sense 'cause you, you're then controlling your own IP and your own distribution.

Yeah. Yeah. Which is, uh, which is, I think is really exciting. O- it's, it, it 

Andrew Eastel: is liberating, to be honest. Yeah. Because it, um, and I didn't realize quite how much until you start thinking about it properly and all the things you could do many of which are probably crazy ideas and, and we, and we probably won't do or they'll, they'll fail.

But even with just one set of content or one brand, i- in my mind, we could be repackaging something for one of the British broadcasters and calling it- whatever we're calling it and repackaging almost the same content with slightly different edits and everything as a different series, uh, for a, a broadcaster abroad who want slightly different things.

There's not one show we've already made and then we're just trying to show- Yeah ... we're trying to sell it. There's all sorts of things you could do. Y- as simple as, well, we could sell hours of the show to this place, and this [00:24:00] place want half an hour, and this place want the title to be more this, why not?

And I think there will become, I think, hopefully, but I think there'll be a coming, a point where that kind of content being acquired by the broadcasters will mean that the broadcasters are less concerned about whether some of it in another form has already appeared somewhere else, or whether they can't have the digital rights or whatever it might be.

Yeah. I just think we're in a world where there's a necessity for content on well-established broadcast platforms. But there isn't necessarily the means to acquire that content in the same traditional way they, they always have done. Yeah. So you have to find it somewhere else. And again, to, to go back to our, as in traditional linear TV producer's position in that that's something that a broadcast platform is only likely to buy from those people.

So if we're producing that online, let's say we're making it digital first, we know how to also [00:25:00] film that- Yeah ... and prepare that ready for a potential broadcast sale, so this- Yeah, when you're 

Justin Crosby: producing it, you're producing it with TV in mind. Yeah. But it's actually YouTube first, but you're capturing everything you need for TV as well.

Yeah. And 

Andrew Eastel: you could be a YouTube creator with a fantastic channel that's massive and great content that a broadcaster wanted. But the reality is the things probably weren't in place, uh, to enable the broadcaster to, uh, take it, which could be everything from down to what was filmed, uh, at the time, or what could be filmed to add to it by that creator.

But also the legal compliance around it, the duty of care- Mm ... things around it. All of that stuff is what we do every day, and that doesn't mean we can go online and create the same really popular channel that someone's making from their bedroom. But it does mean we can go into the digital space and- Make content that maybe hasn't really been able to have been made [00:26:00] before now because that professional approach to it behind the scenes, um, it just hasn't really been available.

Justin Crosby: Yeah. And what's really interesting, you t-talking about international as well, I mean, obviously, uh, the YouTube show's up there. Uh, uh, does, does does, um, Titchmarsh have a much of a following internationally in, uh, in, in particular- Yeah ... territories? It... So we're... It- again, 

Andrew Eastel: Y- you think about the subject as well.

So if you're looking at what subject we should work within if we're for a digital brand, it- it's a good idea for it to travel because we as a company have always made quite British-centric documentary. And actually some of that does sell really well around the world, but other times it's- just feels a bit too much of a a, of a British subject matter.

So gardening's obviously re- really good to give you that sort of scope. And yeah, Alan has a name around the world, so we're talking to distributors now about distributing the program that we're making for the broadcaster, [00:27:00] who will then sell that onto- Yeah ... all of these sort of things, they start to build up.

And i- I don't wanna sit here and, and sort of mislead the production community and be like, "You know, we're gonna be rolling in money because of this," 'cause it isn't. It's not the same numbers. I mean, everyone will know that anything that's being acquired, for example, is, is, is not paid for anywhere near the, the number th- that you might get for a commission.

Yeah. But if you are covering your costs with a- By having a brand up front ... Exactly, yeah ... then that, that- Then- ... is all pure profit essentially. Essentially, yeah. And y- you've got to look at how you then, you know, the plans to grow that channel and to attract more revenue streams costs more money. But, but i- if there's, if...

There, there is a rolling system where, you know, you can end up generating enough money to do the next thing you want to do, and so on and so on and so on, and eventually the, in the background almost, the brand has grown to a point where it's more valuable in terms of how much a [00:28:00] brand might pay to be on it.

It's more valuable in terms of the size of the community that are now aware of the brand and buying into the brand, and then, much has- Yourself has, has done. You're then into sort of live events, and you're into all sorts of other things, and there's no one way of doing 

Justin Crosby: that Publishing.

There's, there's, there's, it's, uh, it's abs- it's again, I've mentioned this a few times on recent shows, but the content octopus, the IP in the middle and the- Yeah ... and the eight legs of different ways of monetization, which is, uh, which is really, really, uh, uh, key component. Really, and that's why I thought- Mm

it'd be really interesting to chat to you about this, 'cause I think it's such a great case study and so relevant to, I think, a lot of producers out there who, you know, have got those talent relationships, who've got great ideas. W- what I think that stands out about y- about Gardening with Alan Titchmarsh, though, and the YouTube play is you've really leveraged the way that YouTube is [00:29:00] used as a search engine- rather than it purely being a, a internet TV, if you like. Yeah. Because if I'm going to work out, you know, how to fill the patches on my lawn I think many, many people who are in DIY or gardening or anything to do with home improvement, you're straight onto YouTube. Yeah. Mm. And, uh, and there you are.

So th- so that, you know, is a really, really great solution to- Yeah ... people's problems. And it was one of the things 

Andrew Eastel: that we looked at when we first looked into whether this was the right subject matter. It comes into the educational category on YouTube, which is a good place to be because essentially you, you're in a sort of slightly higher tier of advertising.

Mm. Um, but it's also a very popular place to be. And as you rightly say, I think for a long time, all generations have been typing into YouTube, "How do I do this?" Or, "What should I do with this?" Yeah. Myself in- myself included. And if I'm being honest, I'm I'm pushing 50, so I don't wanna sort [00:30:00] of try to pretend I'm a young person.

But I would say that my first, well, my heavier usage of YouTube did used to be that. It did used to be- Yeah ... it's an encyclopedia- Yeah ... for things I just don't know how to do. Well, it's the world's second-biggest search engine. Yeah. And, a- and, and this is something I'm definitely not an expert in, but I was thinking about this the other day, and, and AI coming in, I don't think, although lots of people are now asking ChatGPT how to do blah, blah, blah, like video, which at the moment, ChatGPT isn't sort of pumping out a- as far as I know.

I think it's, it would be more looking a- at YouTube to find the answers itself. You there's this, it feels like there's a sustainability of video content- Yeah Those, that, that world, and that is definitely, I think, what's a driver for the older generation onto things like- Yeah ... YouTube. And i- we, I'd need to look at the data in detail to sort of [00:31:00] understand, um, the age demographic of who's looking at the Alan Titchmarsh gardening channel, but it's definitely in, the older generation.

Yeah. And I think that that also dictates a little bit with what you do content-wise. Y- One thing we're saying to, to our guys internally in, in, in development, and again, I'm I say all this thing like it's some, like it's some new thing that we've worked out and, you know, um, it's not lost on me that there's been people doing this for a long time and worked this out a long time ago.

But we're talking to them when it comes to digital conversations, that they need to come up with a business model first and the, and the content later. Because we can all have amazing ideas for something we'd like to make as a show or, or, or a film. But i- it's no point just us making a fantastic documentary and just chucking it on YouTube and hoping for the best.

The, Alan Titchmarsh gardening y- the older demographic using YouTu- all of these things are things that we, we've considered first, and then the content kind of comes afterwards. But when you're thinking about content, our ethos [00:32:00] has been similar to what we were dis- discussing. Y- what's the things that the audience needs to know?

You know, that essential, the essential tips and tricks that y- this is the one-stop shop to go and get them from. We could have added in, Alan talking about his career, which would be fascinating, but I don't think on that medium that's necessarily the right place to do it. Yeah. Because y- you don't just want Alan's fans watching, you want anyone that's got a question about gardening to end up there, anywhere in the world, obviously.

Yeah. And I think videos like, "Four essential things you need to do in April in your garden" is a fantastic kind of title for a video, uh, because it, it gives that sense to the person scrolling through YouTube that they have to watch it even if they didn't want to . If I don't watch it- Yeah ... you know, what have I not done in my garden in April?

Yeah. And the whole thing's gonna die, you know? Yeah. So, uh, those sort of, a sense of, [00:33:00] in that space those kind of, ... It's, I think it is common sense. Uh, it i- is, is my point. I think, and again, there's, there is a, an art to it all, and there's some people that are brilliant at doing the thumbnails and the titles and so on, and it makes a lot of sense and it, and it's, trying to- Work out the algorithm, obviously.

But I do think, again, as TV producers, we're selling stuff a lot. You know, we- we're selling our shows. We're, we're trying to get people to watch them. We're, we're trying to tell really gripping stories, and i- it's just, it's a continuation of that. It- it- it's common sense for those that work in that world, I think.

Justin Crosby: Yeah. Well, but what I really like about it is the way that you've talked about approaching this as, it's almost as a, as a new business. As being an entrepreneur- Yeah ... approaching launching a channel as its own business, uh, as opposed to just making a great show because people are, you think people are gonna, wanna watch it.

Which is definitely the smart way to approach it. So let's, let's just talk about the, uh, the success of the channel then. It's about half a million views [00:34:00] a, a month or something like that at the moment, I 

Andrew Eastel: think. Yeah, although, uh, when I checked this morning, I think it was it'd gone up from that a- as well.

And it's got over 150,000 subscribers now. And in a relatively quick time, I think. Yeah. Um, so we've been told, again, n- news ... It... All of this stuff you're learning, uh, as you go. Yeah. And it's kind of great because, again 50 years old and been in the industry now for, for what seems like quite a long time, it- it's quite nice to suddenly have a, a new sort of area to start learning about.

Y- so yeah, it, it's interesting when you sort of monitor, like, visi- v- video views, and it's easy to get despondent. And we do, and we do say, "Oh, why has that one not done really well?" And, and oh, it's, you know, it's all going backwards." And it's never going backwards. But i- it's really hard to predict or even understand afterwards, to be honest, why one video would do well and the other, the other wouldn't.

The data's amazing, to have it, and it's something that is another fantastic advantage of, of that space. We don't have anywhere near that level of data for traditional [00:35:00] television programs. Yeah. So to have that data is really important to lead you on to, to slightly twist your titles or what kind of content you're gonna have next or what the thumbnail's gonna be.

But it's also madly infuriating because- Well, your con- ... 

Justin Crosby: your content, what, what I think we've I've mentioned this before to you, but your, your content is really interesting because as it's that helpful content, and it's seasonal, gardening is seasonal- Mm ... obviously. So you're like, you know, everybody comes out of winter, uh, in the UK and goes, "Oh, right.

Gonna do my first trip to the garden center. I gotta do something about this lawn. It looks really, really- Mm ... you know, really bad." And obviously... And that's the, when you're in the process of sort of searching and thinking about it. So therefore spring is a very, really good, you know, time for people searching and, and viewing.

But obviously spring happens at a different time around the year. Mm. So you've got Australia having spring at a different... You know? Yeah. So it's, it's a, a really clever sort of rolling- uh, you [00:36:00] know, s- searching for content or, or, or library that you're creating for people- Yeah. Yeah ... which is, which is really smart.

And lucky for us, spring happens 

Andrew Eastel: every year. Mm. You know, so it's it's got an eternity to it in that respect. So, a- again, I think it was strategic and we managed to tick all the boxes somehow, and it's doing well, and it's all kind of seems to have come together as we thought it might.

Yeah. But part of me sort of thinks, I'm not sure it's that easy to repeat that. Y- you know- No ... it, it, Alan, is, is an amazing talent to, to have, uh, in that space. So if we think about other subject matters that aren't gardening, and then you think about who's the top person in that, you know, they're, they're probably not gettable.

You know, it, it, it's quite unique for us to have a subject area with probably the leading uh, high-profile person in the country in that space on our channel. I think that makes a massive difference, obviously. Yeah. But then I think the other... You can look at, the [00:37:00] way we've been looking at it is that all of these channels, all the different variables are at different levels of positive and negative, and you kind of, where one thing feels weaker, something else gets stronger, and it seems to happen all the time.

So just to, as an example, if we found a subject area that we knew was under-catered for, but we also knew there's big brands available to it that potentially would come in and, and support the funding of it but the person that was the leading person in that field didn't have a, a high profile, what we would find is that some of the other aspects of that are then made easier.

So if that person didn't have such a high profile, they're probably not as busy as, say, Alan would be. Mm. And therefore, you can actually film more content quicker, potentially. Yep. Um, and when you start, when one of those things goes down, another one often goes up. It also depends which way round you're doing it, which can get [00:38:00] confusing now.

But with brands, what we've been doing is approaching them and saying, we, we have this channel, this person is fronting it, this is the content." And they've been really keen to get involved really quickly. If they're not keen to get involved very quickly and we need to see some growth in the channel first, then we need to look at other revenue sources.

But often where brands aren't available, and you've not therefore got sort of product placement or a sponsorship what we're starting to see just through conversations is it makes some of the other revenue sources more interested. Mm. So whereas we can often look at models where we're selling content, repackaging it back to television- conversations we're having now about other ideas are the first thing we do is get a pre-sale for this content from television.

And we then know that we're getting, we're saying we can make a 12-part series for you with our footage. It's not talent led. It's just good quality factual [00:39:00] television. We can deliver it to you in six months. They say, "Yeah, okay, we'll pay X for that." We then start making the content and, and creating a brand online that, that will still be there.

And we know that that money is either partly paid or coming to us, and let's say we do that for a year. Our channel has grown thanks to the pre-sales that we had for the broadcaster who was willing to take the show. And then there's enough of a community to bring brands in, and so brands come in later then- Yeah

and then they become maybe the primary source, but we were able to get the channel off the ground because the revenue was coming from the TV angle. Yeah. So it all sort of flips around, and you can kind of move it around, and it gets complicated. And I'm saying this slightly speculatively Yeah

because these are definitely conversations that we're having, and it seems absolutely like things will pan out like that. But I don't think you also ever really fully know. It's- 

Justin Crosby: [00:40:00] Well, it's such, it's so new. It's so am- Yeah ... you know, it's, uh, these opportunities are, are new and, you know, the you know, the, everyone's sort of building the plane whilst they're flying it, aren't they?

You know? Yeah. I would 

Andrew Eastel: say, though, that it feels like at the moment as you start to think that way or you start to have conversations or even start to make content, so far more opportunities are opening up than closing off. There's definitely things that we've not thought was even an option- ... until we started discussing it- with various entities. And now, you know, I'm having meetings with people representing brands who are interested in what we're doing and, and how they could get involved and whether that means we end up doing some branded content, again, been around for a long time, the sort of thing that that Spirit will do a lot of good stuff on.

Or it means that we know that there are brands around that would support very much our own channel, and then we have that longevity because it's, it's our- Yeah ... it's our brand. We're not just being [00:41:00] commissioned to make six months' worth of videos for a brand, um, but we still retain, so we have something that we can retain that kind of IP over for a lifetime and go off in whichever direction- Yeah

we want. 

Justin Crosby: So final question, Andrew, is looking ahead to the future. Now you've, you've you've launched your digital division, uh, w- at Middlechild, which is Wild Child, right? Wild Child, yeah, which- I- it really i- 

Andrew Eastel: is because it needs to be treated like a separate business. Yeah. Because i- it does, it can't just plug into the same sort of structure and- Yeah

Rates and roles that we have at the moment. 

Justin Crosby: So let's say three years in the future, uh, Middlechild is hopefully still working with linear production as well. Would you estimate that Wildchild will be a bigger part of your overall business? Uh, and if so, how are you gonna get it there?

What are the, you know, what, what are the, [00:42:00] what are your plans to, to- Yeah ... to, to, to, to, uh, to build Wildchild within the group? 

Andrew Eastel: I 

Justin Crosby: couldn't 

Andrew Eastel: tell you whether it would be bigger, the same, or smaller in terms of, financial size as the as Middlechild or Northern Child because, one, we don't know where traditional television is going, and there's, being optimistic, there's every chance we absolutely do fill a void and, and, uh, we are making low-cost, high-volume stuff, and we're making premium factual because- Yeah

they want factual instead of entertainment. Y- so that we don't know with that. I think with the, with Wildchild, I think in 10 years time rather than three, you can see that doing great guns. You really can. I think at the moment, because we're having to sort of juggle and get this balance right, and our focus is still primarily on what we're structured to do and, and traditional linear television that's kind of the, the Wildchild stuff is happening organically, and it's really [00:43:00] nice- Mm

because I think the opportunities that kind of come up and make a lot of sense really quickly, we can move on really quickly, and then they happen. So we're, we've already got two new, very similar to the Alan model channels happening, so, one with pets and one with survival, um- Right ... which is an area we've sort of identified as, as having, uh, a decent amount of brands in and we're- Yeah

working with someone who's high profile in that world. So they w- they're definitely happening. But we're also discussing doing an access observational documentary-type show along, more along the lines of the television pre-sales route as well. So th- those things haven't spent, we haven't spent loads and loads of time sort of developing that and coming up with a new idea necessarily.

They've kind of happened organically, which is amazing- Yeah ... 'cause if that can, if, if, if we can run it like that, that's great because we're not investing loads of time and energy into just trying to find the next big thing. Mm. The opportunity is presenting itself to us, which is a really nice- [00:44:00] Space to be in 'cause that's rare in this day and age.

But it does show how much of an open door we're pushing at with that world. Yeah. I think the thing, as I'm sure other people have already, well, they, uh, the, Little Dot Studios, for example, and, and, and again Spirit have done it, I think some of the money from the big money, I guess, from the digital area is, is volume in terms of brands and channels.

Yeah. So what that would allow us to do is to have 10 different things going on under Wildchild and a structure of permanent employees who are able to oversee all 10, and then people working on those channels that have long-term contracts with us to, to run those channels 'cause that's the brilliant thing about it.

And, and one thing I've been saying to freelancers when I've been speaking to them is it is different, and it, a- and if, if there's an expectation that it's just like, well, we're gonna just do everything the same as we normally do, it's just for digital now, I think that's gonna be pretty rare. Yeah. There will be an element of that for [00:45:00] the digital channels that the broadcasters are, are running because their expectation will, will still match a lot of the linear television.

And so the structures and, and the roles within there will be similar. But when we're talking about this world where the production companies are essentially running the brand that business model is, is so different that the roles and the rates can't be the same. Maybe they could be similar on certain projects, but generally speaking, it has to change because the, what's happening behind the scenes and, and where, when, and where that money's coming from just isn't the same.

But I think the positive side of that is the freelance community's had years of struggling trying to find work and then being, and, and finding something and being out of work again, and it's, it's awful. I think this feels really positive in that, yes, okay, the role might be, you might have more responsibility in the role.

You might not have all the people on a crew that you might normally have, for example. You might have less time in an edit or whatever it might be- Yeah ... to make [00:46:00] the money work, and the rate might not be the same as it will be in television on a premium commission. But what we can offer, I think, or we will be able to offer uh, again, we as in the production community doing this is long-term security.

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Andrew Eastel: Because the point is we're not making a four-part series for telly which everybody kills themself on And then it goes out, and then it doesn't come back 'cause it didn't rate or because they can't afford for it to come back. Well, you, you come to the studio- Yeah ... with, 

Justin Crosby: With, with forecasting and content that is consistent and solid and forecastable, right?

It runs for as 

Andrew Eastel: long as it, l- as long as it's growing- Yeah ... or doing anything, or even if it's not growing anymore 'cause it's got to the top, but it's do- but it's still fantastically successful. I- if we create a brand and it's doing really well in its own right via the online platforms and the socials that it's on, then that can run forever and ever and ever, and we can be making telly from it, and we can be doing podcasts from it, and we can [00:47:00] be doing everything else and probably even newer, more wonderful ways of exploiting that content.

People working on that, if they want to, could be working on that for the life- Yeah ... of it or y- years. Yeah So it, it, it changes the model of work within it. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Andrew Eastel: In some ways it may be deemed as being slightly negative, as I said, but I think in many ways, if it all goes the way that it seems to be going, and there's many more production companies like us trying to do that, then there will be more secure long-term work for people.

Yeah. And that, to me, feels like that's definitely one of the positive sides of it- Yeah ... rather than the negative. 

Justin Crosby: Really interesting way of looking at it. Andrew, um, it's time for Story of the Week, uh- Oof ... in our show. So what is the TV or content industry story, uh, that you've noticed and opened your eyes in the last seven days or so?

Uh, 

Andrew Eastel: having obviously spent, days and days thinking about [00:48:00] this and then reading just before I came in here, uh, on broadcast that, uh, Janine Thomas has got a job at Storyville, so moving from Channel 4, where she's run the Untold strand for the last few years, and now, uh, is a commissioner for Storyville on the BBC.

And we've worked for Janine before, and she's great, and so it's lovely news to read anyway. But I just thought that's really interesting. She's been sort of in charge of a digital-first docs brand- Mm ... at Channel 4 now for a few years, and I guess one of the sort of highest profile documentary brands that we have in the country at Storyville have- deemed someone like that to be the perfect person to come and help them generate their content.

And I just think that's a good news story for digital in some way. Uh- Yeah ... it, it's just, it's, The Untold Strand I think is a really good example of how you can do sort of really good docs digital first. And yeah, I just thought [00:49:00] that's quite a positive digital to- 

Justin Crosby: Yeah ... 

Andrew Eastel: digital 

Justin Crosby: to linear story. Yeah.

Oh, fantastic. Well, well, well done to Janine. Congratulations to her. How about your hero of the week? Do you have a hero of the week? Uh, has to be 

Andrew Eastel: David Attenborough at 100. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Andrew Eastel: Hard-pressed to find a better hero, especially for sort of linear television. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. You 

Andrew Eastel: know, like, a- an absolute household name who's done that through linear television.

So it talks a lot, I think, to the heritage of that medium as much as anything else. And I think- Yeah ... it, it, and how people from that world absolutely can cross over into all the others. I just, I think l- linear television is, it should be lauded a little bit more for everything it has done- ... rather than the situation it finds itself in now.

And I think he's just a prime example of an amazing person that's done some amazing things, but [00:50:00] a, a really good positive linear TV story- Yeah ... as well. 

Justin Crosby: R- rarely can you say national treasure about somebody and really, really mean it. Yeah, yeah. 

Andrew Eastel: But, um, yeah. I would quite like to, if he's listening, do a YouTube channel with him, if he's, uh, if he's up for that.

Justin Crosby: I think that'd be a brilliant idea. And finally what, who or what are you telling to get in the bin? 

Andrew Eastel: This is l- uh, more of a, a, a group of people rather than one, but I have an eight-year-old daughter and, um, she's obviously not on social media yet, but my, I'm really attuned now to things that she might see and hear and do on that uh, when eventually, unfortunately she has to experience it.

I think the sort of the influencers and the sort of slop that's on those platforms now seems to be, much as everybody's, all the positivity in the digital world, I think there's, there's a lot of rubbish on there now. Yeah. And there's a lot of... I know that's always been an issue, and maybe I'm just a bit more in tune to it, as I said.

But I'm, [00:51:00] there's more fakery from individuals on there. There's a lot of un- unedifying stuff as well, isn't there? And there's, and there's a lot of, yeah. And for all of the AI's positivity and, and potentially helpful things in, in our world the kind of slop that's now appearing everywhere, Yeah

just starting to make it harder to find the authentic content on there, and that's definitely not A good thing 

Justin Crosby: And as a parent, would you support the under 16 ban for social media that's been sort of in, in discussion at the moment, do you think? 

Andrew Eastel: Yeah. But because of that, it's a shame, isn't it, in a way, because you wouldn't say we should do an under 16 ban on people from terrestrial television because there's guardrails.

Yeah. And you know the content is authentic. But until that's possible it, it seems to only be getting worse to me, and I wouldn't want her exposed to that or exposed to the tricks that they use to keep us all [00:52:00] hooked on it. Yeah. It's not, as the, um, without getting too political, as the, uh, the Facebook court case proved the other week.

You know, they, they absolutely are trying to addict people to the platform, and- ... that's not safe when they also have some of the stuff I just mentioned on their platform- Yeah ... either. Yeah. So it would be good to, um, get that sorted. 

Justin Crosby: Yes. 

Andrew Eastel: At no 

Justin Crosby: mean feat. Yeah. Well, we could, we could talk a lot about that.

I think that's another rabbit hole we could go down. Mm-hmm. But for now, Andrew, thank you for joining me. It's been great conversation. I'm, uh, I wish you all the, uh, the best with, uh, Middlechild and Wild Child. It's really exciting what you're doing. And, uh, as I say, it's a really great case study for, uh, a a, a previously linear-focused business adapting to the digital-first world, so congratulations for that.

Thank you very much. Thanks for coming on the show. Well, that's about it for this week's TellyCast. Thank you for Andrew for joining us. TellyCast was produced by Spirit Studios and recorded in London. We'll be back next [00:53:00] week with 

another show.