The Business of True Crime: Building IP Beyond Television

This week on TellyCast, Justin Crosby is joined by Naomi Channell, Head of Podcasts at Curve Media and creator of some of the UK’s fastest-growing true crime podcasts.

Naomi shares her journey from a 20-year career in television production to building a portfolio of hit podcast brands that now attract more than a million monthly listeners across audio and video platforms.

The conversation explores how Naomi developed her first podcast around the Stuart Lubbock case, why empathy and trust have become central to her approach to true crime storytelling, and how Curve Media has embraced podcasting as a serious digital-first business opportunity.

Naomi also reveals how shows such as The Affair and Totally True Crime have found audiences on Spotify, discusses the realities of podcast monetisation, and explains why TV production companies should be thinking about podcasts, communities, live events, books and platform licensing as part of a broader IP strategy.

If you’re interested in podcasting, digital-first content, social video, audience building or the future of media businesses, this is an essential listen.

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Transcript

Justin Crosby: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Justin Crosby and welcome to another episode of TellyCast. My guest this week is Naomi Channel, who's head of podcast at Curve Media. Naomi. Okay. Welcome to the show. 

Naomi Channell: Thank you Justin. Nice to be here. Thank, 

Justin Crosby: thank you. Yeah, great to see you. Thank you for coming in. You're welcome. Um, and, uh, we had a really, really great session with you and Rowan from, uh, Spotify.

Yeah. At the recent, uh, how to Make Money Digital Events. So I was really keen to kind of pick up on that really and, and go into a little bit more depth, um, because I think it's really, really, um, interesting your, the case study that you've sort of developed and the podcast that you've developed through Curve over the last, uh, uh, two, three years or so.

Yeah. Uh, and the success that they're having. So I thought it would be really interesting sort of delve into that a little bit, you know? 

Naomi Channell: Absolutely. Let's go for it. Yeah. 

Justin Crosby: Oh, right. Well, well first of all, tell us about how you got involved in podcasting Right from, right from day one. 

Naomi Channell: So it's a bit of an unusual way in, I think.

But, um, so I've been a [00:01:00] TV producer for 20 years, mostly, in fact, in few documentaries. Um, and spent most of my career at Curve Media, which we were formally Cine Flix uk. So, um, I, I always did casting. It was always my thing. Um, and celeb booking. And I'm from a town called Harlow in Essex. And, um, most people drive through it, but for those that, uh, that live there with, there is a, a sort of true crime case that sort of haunts our town really.

Um, if I was to say the name Stuart Lubbock, some people might recognise that if I said the man that was found murdered in the swimming pool of Michael Barrymore, people usually then put the two together. So, um, Stuart Lubbock was, uh, a local man and I knew his dad, Terry, and I knew Stuart's ex-wife Sue.

And, um, it's just actually gone 25 years since he, since he [00:02:00] died. And. In 2021, Terry Stewart's father, who had campaigned for justice for his son for so many years, he, he was diagnosed with terminal cancer and they'd already had a Channel four documentary. It was called Barrymore Body in the Pool. And they, it was a really good documentary, and they looked at all the pathology reports, and there's a lot of sensationalism around that case.

Um, so they, the family got involved and they sort of brought it back to Stewart When Terry died, um, he, or just before he died, he was sad that the, he felt the fight was gonna die with him. And Sue, who is Stewart's ex-wife, is just the most incredible woman. And despite the fact they were divorced, they were still really on really good terms.

And she was so close to Terry and I sort of approached her and I said, we could do something. And at the time, um, serial and all of those other True crime podcasts that were [00:03:00] kind of at the very beginning, um, of the True Crime Podcast journey were out. And they were doing really well. And I thought, okay, maybe I can offer to do a podcast.

And I thought, well, I can edit, I can research, uh, I can write, I can approach people. I think I've got everything I need. And then when she said, well, actually, we've got all the paperwork from the case, because Terry Terry's lawyer had it all, uh, and they said, do you, do you want to look at it? And so we, I developed a six part series and it did really well.

Uh, I called it, his name was Stuart Lubbock. And I've actually just reversioned it and rereleased it because of the 25 year anniversary. And in four years of podcasting, you learn so much more. Um, so I, I sort of made it a bit better and put it back out there, but the content's still the same. And after that went out, lots of families started to approach me and they would say, we really like what you've done here.

Would you be able to do something with us? And I think [00:04:00] it was because it was, there was no sensationalism in it, which actually being from a fact and background was completely the opposite of what I was used to doing. But I think where the difference comes in, Justin, is in 2017, I had a friend who was killed by her partner.

And when you've had that lived experience, you know what it's like when your loved one is reduced to a headline. So the natural empathy I think I had for that family must have shone through, and I'm quite meticulous in my fact check-in. So when I was doing all of that, I think people resonated with it.

It was slightly different from some of the other big true crime podcasts that were out at the time. And, and it's just built from there really. 

Justin Crosby: Wow. And so, um, so starting with, um, the Stuart Lubbock podcast, was that, um, was that video as well as audio or just audio to begin 

Naomi Channell: with? Just audio. So most of mine that I do are just audio.

Um, at Curve [00:05:00] Media. When I, I started doing sort of serialised cases so that they would be 6, 8, 10 episodes. And then I got to a point where my audience, I was growing an audience and they were getting in touch on Instagram and on Spotify comments and saying, are you gonna do anything weekly? And I thought, you know what?

That is the way to do it. It's, it's consistency. And I knew that, so I started putting out weekly episodes. It is a big undertaking when you're working full time as well for, for a TV company. Um, but I, I get so much from it. And my bosses at Ke Media, Camilla Lewis and Rob Carey, they both, uh, sort of saw, they were all, they've always been very proud of the podcast and always supported me in doing that.

And they said, you know what? Digital. We can see it coming. It's, it's coming towards us. Why don't we reversion some of your podcast for video form and why don't we put them on YouTube and we'll put them on Spotify video and we'll see how that does. [00:06:00] And it's been, it, it's really gone quite crazy on Spotify.

We have fantastic download numbers, um, on YouTube. We're still trying to break through the noise. There's so many people that are doing amazing things on YouTube, but we've really found a home on Spotify. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. And, um, and so how many podcasts are you working across now and what sort of genres are you finding that, that working?

Naomi Channell: So, I've got five at the moment. So I've got Real, which is my, um, which is my baby, the, the one that started with the Stuart Lubbock case. Um, and I've, and there's, there's a variety of so many incredible, heartbreaking stories, but also stories of hope on, on that podcast. Um, as a spinoff, I then do real lives.

So I, I found that I was coming into contact with incredible people. I speak at events like Crime Con and you'll meet, like, one of my really good friends now is Colin Sutton. He's the man who caught Levi Bellfield, never thought I'd, I'd be friends with the man who caught one of the UK's biggest serial [00:07:00] killers, but that's just the way it happens.

And so I thought, well, actually these people have got incredible lives. I'd really like to do a, a conversational, very much like this, a conversational podcast. Um, some of the people that come on are very sensitive stories and are survivors of crime, so I've kept that as audio only. And I've, I've built up an audio only.

Sort of audience base that they're not that interested in video. But now thanks to totally True Crime, I do have a video audience as well, and I found that they're completely different. Um, I also do The Affair 

Justin Crosby: right, 

Naomi Channell: with Anna Williamson, so, um, maybe we can talk about that in a bit because it does kind of link to tv, but that's, uh, people coming on and talking about infidelity and, um, it's, it's a story arc.

So each, it's an anthology. Each episode is a different affair story, whether it's from the protagonist, from the person that's cheated on or the bit on the side. Mm-hmm. Um, that's opened my eyes just as much as True Crime has. Right. And then I've also got one that's gonna be coming [00:08:00] out soon. Um, and I'm working with two former, uh, police officers who are two of the biggest private investigators now in the country.

And their case book is Wild. Um, so I'll be helping them with that podcast as well, which will be video. 

Justin Crosby: Wow. So, um, so you said five 

Naomi Channell: and the Yeah. Yeah. 

Justin Crosby: Five. Um, and, uh, are, are they all always on, or do you do, uh, you know, are we talking about 50 episodes a year or are we talking about sort of six part episodes?

Like how you started? Yeah. So 

Naomi Channell: Real, real Lives totally True Crime, they're always on. 

Justin Crosby: Right. 

Naomi Channell: Um, and then I've got, uh, the Affair is, is going to be a weekly podcast now. So it was, uh, in blocks of eight, but we now have, the inbox is full of people that want to talk. Um, and we've got the audience. So we are, we're making that weekly and, um, the, the, the female PIs, that's, that's always on as [00:09:00] well.

Justin Crosby: Yeah. Wow. Um, and so, so I mean, you don't have a great idea of time for much else, right? I mean, uh, that's, that's a lot of, lot of production. A lot of, yeah. Well, it's a lot of research, right. 

Naomi Channell: A lot of research. And, and the, the one thing I'm quite bad at is delegating. So, um, the, the only help I have across all of those is I have, um, an editor to help me on totally true crime.

But other than that, I do, I do it all. So it is quite a lot. And I do still do the celeb booking and the cast in for Curve Media as well. Um, and I, and I raise a couple of kids 

Justin Crosby: Wow. 

Naomi Channell: As well. And a husband actually is the hardest. 

Justin Crosby: Um, well just, just thinking about, um, true Crime as a genre. 'cause recently we had, uh, Rowan, uh, Collinson from Spotify on, uh, and we were talking about what are the most popular emerging genres or genres already that really successful on Spotify.

Mm-hmm. And true crime and comedy. Uh, were two of the ones [00:10:00] that you know, in particular and, and obviously interview formats as well. Um. Think about true crime. Um, you, you talked about your approach to that as being non sensationalist. 

Naomi Channell: Yeah, yeah. 

Justin Crosby: Um, I mean, it's obviously a very, very sensitive area. Yeah. All of the, the subject matter that you're dealing with.

Mm-hmm. Um. And also there's a, there's seemingly an insatiable appetite for true crime content out there and big communities, uh, around, as you said, crime con Crime con Yeah. And lots of, lots of other events and, uh, seminars and things around, around the world. Um, you know, what's, what's, what's really informed your approach then to that?

Because obviously yeah, you could go a more sensationalist route and maybe there are other true crime podcasts that, that perhaps are a little bit more, uh, in that direction. Mm-hmm. I mean, what, what sort of informed your choice to, to approach true crime in the way that you do? 

Naomi Channell: I couldn't live [00:11:00] with myself if I, if I didn't.

Um, it, it's, I think that the reason that people, and, and I'm very privileged to have people trust me and say, would you mind doing my story with me? I've probably got it, is gotta be over a hundred by now. Families of people that have been murdered or survivors of crime, some of whom have never spoke out before, and they've come across the podcast and they like the tone.

Um, am I the richest true crime podcaster? Absolutely not. I don't do it for the money at all. Um, what I do it for is, it's, um, I almost see it as, uh, almost charity work. Not, and, and not in a patronising way to those who, who come forward, but all of us, I think we like to donate our time and our, our resources to somebody or something.

And victims of crime, survivors of crime, the families that are left behind, it's devastating. And [00:12:00] if you haven't experienced that or, and hopefully many people watching haven't, if you haven't experienced it, I think you can't really completely comprehend how much it weighs over you constantly day after day.

Um, it, there's always gonna be headlines written about your loved ones or your case. Um, and what I wanted to do was to give people an opportunity to tell their story, um, so that if they did have articles written about them, if there was sensationalist headlines, which there have, there have been a few recently, a few people that I've worked with who have been really upset because, you know, some journalists, they'll take some pieces of information from another article, they'll rewrite it.

They completely miss the point. They maybe say the campaign name wrong. I've got, I've had, uh, something happen like that 

Justin Crosby: all, they may have an agenda, right? 

Naomi Channell: Absolutely. They've got an agenda and it completely [00:13:00] takes away from what these people are doing in the midst of so much grief and so much pain. So to be able to.

To be a friend to those people as well as be someone say, do you want to come on and share your story? And the thing I do is that the families that I work with, the ones who who come to me, they always get to vet the episode before it goes out. I would never ever not give them that. Now they also know that I editorially have to be fair, and they completely understand that, and we have a really long conversation before.

Um, but they will understand. And that has led them to then go to other survivors victims families, because these people find each other. They find each other through, uh, grief online groups. They find themselves through victims advocates who introduce them to other people through charities and organisations.

They have WhatsApp groups. There's a, there is a WhatsApp group of women of, uh, murdered children. And [00:14:00] if you meet one of those and you do a good job for them, and they feel empowered, they feel like their story has come across, um, well, they will then tell you, uh, tell, you know, tell their other WhatsApp group friends who've been through the same experience.

Actually, I found a journalist and a producer that I can trust. And that's actually invaluable. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Naomi Channell: Nowadays. 

Justin Crosby: Um, well it's obviously a vocation for you as once it now, you know, been a, a commercial operation working across, you know, uh, five different shows. But, um. I I, I think that, um, the, what's really clear there is that, um, like you say, the medium of tv when you, when you're dealing with true crime, there's always a gatekeeper.

Mm-hmm. There's always a commissioner there who's giving notes. Mm-hmm. They may want the content to be perhaps more aligned to what their channel is looking to achieve. Mm-hmm. Or what, what, what their, what their corporate strategy might be Yeah. For their programming. 

Naomi Channell: Yeah. 

Justin Crosby: Whereas what you are [00:15:00] doing is obviously you are, you are taking away that gatekeeper and, and, and, and, you know, giving a voice to, to, um, to victims families or, uh, survivors directly there to mm-hmm.

To the audience. So I can, I can really see, yeah. I think that's the power of podcasting, isn't it, 

Naomi Channell: really? There's a really, I mean, the Stewart Lubbock case was a, was a really good example of that because Channel four wanted to call it Barry Moore body in the pool, and they, they, they went along with it because they knew that the documentary was really well made.

Mm-hmm. The two guys that made it, we know that that's a, we know being in tv that's often a network decision. 

Justin Crosby: Well, it's really kind of insensitive, isn't it? I mean, if you are, if for the parents of somebody's been murdered 

Naomi Channell: Yeah. 

Justin Crosby: Having their son reduced to, to, you know, a sub type or 

Naomi Channell: mm-hmm. 

Justin Crosby: Underneath it, I mean, we can understand why that Sensa sensation is t and that's what's gonna drive viewers, but reality is Yeah.

Difficult. There's, there's, there's a, you know, there's real, real person involved 

Naomi Channell: there. [00:16:00] Exactly. And so when, when we were putting our one together, I said, what would tell me everything that's happened so far that you've really had bad experiences with it in the media. Let's see if we can rectify those.

And that's why we decided to call it, his name was Stuart Lubbock. Will I win any prizes for that title? Absolutely not. But did I do right by the Family and by Stuart? I think so. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. Um, so, um, so obviously, um, you've uh, been a TV producer for how long? I mean, 

Naomi Channell: 20 years. 

Justin Crosby: 20 years. Um, you know, one of the things that we talked about at the recent, how to Make Money in Digital Event, and you can check out the, uh, the video to, uh, Rowan and Naomi's conversation on our YouTube channel, um, uh, was the, the relatively short leap that it does take from being a TV producer into podcasting.

Naomi Channell: Yeah. Yeah. 

Justin Crosby: And, uh, and obviously the guys at Curve have seen the opportunity with digital Yeah. Uh, as way to future [00:17:00] proof their business in the same way that many of the, uh, producers are starting to sort of take it mm-hmm. A little bit more seriously now. Um. What, what do you think are the, are the key attributes a TV producer has got mm-hmm.

To enable them to be a successful podcast business? 

Naomi Channell: I think it's storytelling at, at its absolute core, because I, there were so many podcasts out there, how many millions? Probably. And some of the, you know, and, and this is not to put down on anyone's work. Some of them I've, I like, I like to listen in every form of my life.

I'm in the car, um, at the gym, which is, I know, is really strange to be on the treadmill with a podcast. Maybe it's not actually, maybe people do do that. Um, before I go to bed at night, you know, I, I, I listen to so much stuff. It's, I, I'm always wanting to learn, looking at other people's work, what's good, what's not.

And um, some people have great production value, but sometimes the storytelling is slightly jarred or, or it doesn't quite [00:18:00] flow in the way that someone who's, you know, spent a month filming a 25 minute documentary might be able to do. You might be able to cut the, cut The waffle, I think is, um, is a good bit.

Get to the point. Mm. There are a lot of podcasts that have a lot of, um, filler. There's a lot of chat that's not really about the subject at all. Um, in true crime, that is one of the things that. I personally as a listener, not, not as anything, but find that I don't quite gel with, um, because if you're about to talk about someone's murder, but then you are hearing about the school run or the fact that, you know, Ocado swapped your cucumbers for shoe polish or something that week, you know, sometimes it's not, 

Justin Crosby: it can, it can, it can go off into chat a little bit as opposed to actually what you're listening to is something that's you're invested in, right?

Absolutely. As a, as a listener. 

Naomi Channell: Absolutely. And do you know what, I'm sure there, there are plenty of those podcasts that are a lot of chatter that people do gravitate towards, um, if you really [00:19:00] buy into the person. But if you are coming from TV production and nobody really knows you, then you've, you've got to hook them in with, so with something else.

So, um, in, in all of my podcasts, I did one q and a session once, but that was it. Um, I even did a, I did a 24 hour live podcast last year. I know it was, I was still tired, but it was for, because I wanted to give back because you, you know, I think if you, if you, if you work in true crime and you do stuff there, there should be points where you give back.

So I contacted Victim Support and I said, look, if I do, I'll do a sponsored 24 hour podcast. Um, and every half an hour to an hour a new person would join me on. So whether it was, um, uh, someone who, who works in like the police, um, a detective, a forensic psychologist, we also had, um, so the best friend of, uh, Terrance, uh, woods, who went missing whilst he was working on Gold Rush out in America.

So we [00:20:00] had an appeal for information there. I had Headley Thomas, who's one of Australia's most incredible journalist and podcasters in the whole world. He's just amazing. Having him on was like, for me, it was like Attenborough. Oh my goodness. And, and I did it in my like third to last 24 hour shift, so Oh.

Looked like crap. And I was, I dunno what I was saying, but somehow it worked. And I, and I, when I did that, I realised that even then in that 24 hours, someone afterwards wrote me a message and said, I tuned in for a lot of that. And they said, not once did you put any filler in, you didn't really talk about yourself.

I was wondering if we were gonna get to know you a bit more. And I realised then that I structure every single, uh, minute of the podcast, which maybe I don't need to do so much, but every minute of that 24 hours, I mean, it took me months to arrange, but was, was catered for. There was always a question, there was never any chat that wasn't about the topic we were talking about in that half an hour.

And I [00:21:00] realised that then once I'd done that, I could put it, put them out as episodes and they received the same. Uh, response and positivity from my audience than, than a, a pre polished edited for episode would've done. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. So, um, so you talk about storytelling as being, you know, super, uh, important, but, um, there's also, also, you know, talent, relationships, um, and, uh, and really production is pretty straightforward mm-hmm.

When it comes to video, isn't it? I mean, it, you it's, it's, it's a very straightforward shoot. So, um, you know, what, how would you. What advice would you give to any indies who are considering moving into podcasting or looking at the digital first space and thinking, you know, what, what's our play here?

What's our, what's our opportunity? What, what advice would you give them? 

Naomi Channell: I think it's always finding something that's not being done, which sounds really, really [00:22:00] hard. But for example, so the affair that we have, uh, with Anna Williamson. So that came from, um, us trying to sell, uh, a series on infidelity, either as a documentary series or as like a factual drama retelling stories.

We quite quickly learned that casting that is a nightmare for tv, 

Justin Crosby: right? 

Naomi Channell: So we were in a development meeting one day and, um, Rob and Camilla and Ian Taylor, my, my head of development, we were talking and we were like, we know that drama, or if you watch any kind of drama on Netflix or anything, there's always an affair.

There's always an infidelity strand in there somewhere. And we see it in, you know, go, going back to Romeo, Julie, you know, all of these kind of really old, um, old books and stories that we've had for decades, centuries, infidelity, secret relationships. Um, they always sell. Um, then we came across a statistic that [00:23:00] one, one in five people have had an affair, which is pretty, pretty mind blowing.

Yeah. So it's like, okay, what can we do? And we were talking about podcasting and we just sort of all looked at each other and it was like a moment of realisation, like, it's a podcast. Of course it is. It's a podcast. You don't have to show their face, um, who's gonna do it. And I'd had a preexisting development relationship with Anna Williamson and her agent, and we loved them.

We loved that she was bringing, um, she was very fresh in her approach. She's a relate counsellor. She's got her own practise, but she's also great on tv. And she was also the host of Luanna the podcast, which is a really, really popular podcast, one of the most popular in the country. And so I approached her and she loved the idea.

So we thought, okay, this is a great way for us to prove it's proof of concept. Yeah. That, that we can get it to work. And if we can build a brand, then hopefully we can make sure that, that we, it's hard to say own the ip, but that we were kind of the first there to do it. Yeah. [00:24:00] Because apart from your take a break, that's life, women's own sort of magazines you don't see much of it.

Used to have it on Jeremy Cole used to have it on Trisha. I, I started my career on Tricia, so I've, you know, affairs go right back for me. Yeah. Um, but with this, again, applying that same sensitivity to it, I knew that Anna was, you know, because she's a therapist and she has her own practise, we knew that she wouldn't come across as, you know, completely sensationalist out of whack.

Um. And we were both, we both approached it with, okay, let's make this a non-judgmental space. Almost a bit like a confessional, but where Anna can also offer some takeaway for those listening. And also the person that we're having on, it's not a therapy session, but sometimes it does get into territory where it does feel like she, she, she kind of pulls some strings together and, and a light bulb will go off and the affair partner or the person that's been cheated on who's on the show might say, [00:25:00] oh yeah, I'd never thought about it like that.

And, and it's, it's done amazing. I mean, we're up to about 350,000 downloads a month now. Um, and we have a 45% male audience. Really, which I think surprises a lot of people. Yeah. And it's going from strength to strength. Um, but that's a really good way of sort of how we, how we developed an area that was sort of untrodden in, in that space.

We won a, a British podcast award, uh, after the first series for, um, sex and relationships category. And it's, it's going from strengths to strengths. So, 

Justin Crosby: but what's interesting, I think as well is that, um, you wouldn't have developed it in the way that you had if it wasn't for your experience as a TV producer.

Naomi Channell: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. It came as an afterthought. But it's funny because now in development meetings, we actually think both ways now. Yeah. We've got to the point where it used [00:26:00] to be tv, tv, tv and then, oh, we might be able to do something else. Now we're thinking branded content, podcasting and tv and where will it fit?

Could it fit into all of them? 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so let's, let's talk about, um, commercials, uh, of podcasting. And I'm not gonna to ask you for any numbers in terms of, you know, revenue and everything, but, um, you've obviously got, I mean the, the, the, give us a sense of the scale of the shows that you have now.

You talked about, uh, the, uh, relationship one with 350 

Naomi Channell: Yeah. The FA 

Justin Crosby: thousand a month, which is fantastic. So, um, can you give us a sense of scale of some of the other ones that you're working on? Yeah, 

Naomi Channell: so, um, for real, which is my weekly one, bear in mind I'm not a celebrity and not to be, but, um, that's, that's about quarter of a million a month.

Um, real lives has only been going since October, and I think I'm up to about a hundred thousand to 150,000 downloads a month with that one. Um, totally true Crime can do anything up to 400,000, [00:27:00] um, a month. And, uh, the new one I have is, is obviously TBC, but I hope that, hope that we'll build a core audience like that.

Justin Crosby: So you've, you are serving audiences of over a million people. Basically all the time, every week, if you like. And, uh, that's, it's astounding. Yeah. Um, so tell us about the, you know, the commercial aspects of that. You talking about, um, Spotify first really mm-hmm. Is your sort of key platform. Um, give us a sense of, you know, the, the revenue on Spotify that you're earning versus perhaps other platforms like YouTube.

Yeah. For the ones that are video as well. Yeah. Give us a sense of for, because obviously for any, any Indy who's, who's coming into this market, it's like, well, you know, how do you make money in digital? Yeah. Yeah. It's hard, 

Naomi Channell: isn't 

Justin Crosby: it? It's hard. Yeah. Uh, but. But, but equally, you know, uh, you are demonstrating that, you know, a TV producer's, [00:28:00] uh, expertise can actually, you know, absolutely deliver mm-hmm.

New shows and IP in the podcasting space and be profitable. Yeah. So gives a sense of, you know, what that might look like financially. 

Naomi Channell: So on YouTube, we are yet to see anything of note, sometimes not even three figures. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Naomi Channell: Um, because we are, it's so, we've got so much competition there. Spotify video, we've had real success because we have great partner managements, uh, sort of relationships.

So, um, Rachel Simpson is our partner manager at Spotify, and she is brilliant and she's always supporting us. She's, theyre, I tell, I think the difference with Spotify is they really buy into their talent. So even though we, you know, we, we can release it in other places, we are not exclusive to them. They do have a Spotify original section where they commission their own content.

Um, but for us, we just have [00:29:00] a great relationship. So for example, um, we said to them, actually, we've got a case coming up that is really important to us to cover. There's a petition on the end of it. Would you, is there anything you can do in terms of promo space for us? And she's like, yep, leave it with me.

And we, you know, where they can, they will help you. And then once you, you, the, the view the viewers, uh, start coming in, if you are doing video and you are hosting on Spotify for creators, you can get a premium ad revenue. So that revenue is, um, a higher, what we call a CPM. Yeah. So cost per milli cost per thousand.

And, um, that is higher than, I mean, God, it's actually five times higher than it is on YouTube. So if you can see that as a Right. Sometimes on YouTube, if you have a thousand uh, watches, you might literally get two pound 50 for that. Yeah. Literally. Yeah. Um, whereas it's much, much more, four to five times [00:30:00] more on Spotify generally we find.

So, um, it does fluctuate. There are times in the year where some months are, are better for revenue than others, but ultimately we monetize for totally true crime through Spotify video, a little bit from YouTube. And then for like The Affair and myself, um, with the True Crime Podcasts, we are hosted by ACOs and they have a great dynamic ad revenue set up.

Um, true crime is hard to monetize. That's, that is definitely, um, something I will say because obviously 

Justin Crosby: there's not many brands that really want to be in that space. 

Naomi Channell: Yeah, absolutely. And I, and even as. Even as someone who, and, um, um, please, I think it's me blowing the smoke to myself, but if you read my reviews on, on Apple for example, they're so kind.

They're very much like, this is empathetic, great journalism. You know, there's no sensationalism, there's no, well, I never swear unless, you know, it's a quote, will never say anything derogatory unless it's a quote. You know, it's very [00:31:00] fact-based and you could almost put it into news really. And even that, it still has a, a tough time monetizing sort of any host reads or anything, which is fine.

As I said, I'm not doing it for the money, but with things like totally true crime, which is part of Curve Media, where I have to look at it as a business, um, doesn't mean you still can't have that empathy, but I do have to think, okay, how else can I monetize on this? So we are looking at different avenues where we can repurpose the content.

So for example, there are platforms like Tubby who can, can also acquire your content. Yeah. Um, you can also join sort of other platforms within, um, within Spotify and Apple Podcast, for example, uh, the lovely Jamie East, he runs the Daily Mail group. Yeah. So he has several different, um, podcasts under his umbrella, and they have a subscription model now, which is, which is really interesting.

Some people, uh, go off a Patreon. So if you're doing content where you are building [00:32:00] a community, not just an audience, so you want people's feedback, you want people to talk to each other, maybe you'll have meetups, you'll have Live Zooms. Patreon's a great way to do that. People, if they love your content and you become part of their routine, they won't mind paying two pound a month to support your work.

Um, and then aside from that, we've also, so we're totally true crime. We've also taken that out to market for tv and we've had a few people who, a few networks that have come back and said, we are interested in potentially upbringing the, the, the videos and putting them onto our streaming services. I think we're all still, it's, I feel like we're on the cusp of something.

Yeah. Quite exciting where it is all gonna bleed into one, but at the moment I think we're just like this. We're just just on the, on the precipice. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. Yeah. And, um, and just continuing on the, on the point of monetization then, um, you're building communities Yeah. Uh, who are super engaged. 

Naomi Channell: Mm-hmm. 

Justin Crosby: Um. Uh, [00:33:00] we often talk, uh, at, uh, I often talk at, at TellyCast events about the, uh, the octopus strategy.

Naomi Channell: Yeah, yeah. 

Justin Crosby: Which is not my, not my creation, but, uh, the idea of having your IP in the centre Yeah. And then different legs with different ways to monetize your ip. 

Naomi Channell: Yeah. 

Justin Crosby: Um, what are the different legs that you see, other than maybe Spotify is one of those, what, what, what are the different legs you see for some of your brands?

You know, you, are you going to, uh, take any shows out live, for example, merchandising? How else are you monetizing? 

Naomi Channell: Yeah. Yeah. So with true crime, it's really hard to do that with the affair. Um, we're in talks with book publishers at the moment, look at book. Um, we potentially are going to start having a Patreon because, because Anna is a therapist as well.

So if we think back to the talent and who you've got, what, what could they offer a community? We found that there are so many people that every time we put a post out on social media to, to [00:34:00] promote the latest episode, you can almost see people in the comments talking to each other and we're like, we are building a community here.

Um, so we would, we would do things like that. There are, I mean, so many podcasts have done amazing live tours and I hope that maybe with the, the two PIs that I'm gonna be working with, that would be an amazing live tour. Yeah. Um, we also, uh, it's also just different platforms as well. So even with, um, the Affair, we Are Go, we are actually currently putting that together to be video because we know that soon Acast are gonna have the technology to integrate Spotify video.

So that was announced quite recently. Up, up until just a few months ago. We were sort of, you could put it on Spotify video, but if you wanted to put the audio anywhere else, you'd have to get a different RSS feed and, you know, send to them. Whereas now if you're hosted on somewhere like Acast or Audio Boom, there is gonna be the technology to have video podcasts on [00:35:00] there.

So we could then sort of monetize through Apple, have, have just launched a podcast video, for example. Um, we could do the audio only, so things like cast box, um, and global, you know, people can go on there. So there's quite, we're still sort of finding all the tentacles, I think, on that octopus. Yeah. But we do see, we do see different ones and actually off the back of my crime ones, um, there, there have been sort of soft approaches about doing books on specific cases as well.

So that could be something that, that ends up happening as well. 

Justin Crosby: So book publishing, live tours, and then essentially licencing content back on two other platforms as well. Yeah. Which is, uh, which is really exciting. Yeah. And I, I, I agree with you. I think that is. We are. So we're really starting to see that becoming a, a serious commercial model in tv.

I mean, uh, it was just the other week I was up in Leeds for the football [00:36:00] and, uh, and I very rarely watch TV anymore, uh, in terms of linear TVs or sat on the bed, put the hotel tele on, and actually on Channel four and Channel five, uh, at the same time, uh, were two digital first shows. 

Naomi Channell: Right. Wow. 

Justin Crosby: Interesting.

So TFI Friday the reboot, right? Yep. And, uh, PIs, Morgan. Wow. Right. Interesting. Censored as well. 

Naomi Channell: Mm-hmm. 

Justin Crosby: Um, and also both produced by news mm-hmm. Court, which is, you know, again, a newspaper. 

Naomi Channell: Yep. Yeah. 

Justin Crosby: Business. So this, this sort of amalgamation of media businesses and creating this IP and then being able to licence that out is, uh, is really exciting.

Naomi Channell: It is. Um, and, and you never know what's, what's gonna, what's gonna come from any of it. So I've had some emails in the past that have been really exciting. They've not, not always amounted to something, but you know, when you, obviously if you find your audience, sometimes they will have like an idea. So one of my, um, audience members, she works in [00:37:00] PR and she was like, do you know what I'm, she works for a, a, a brand of hotels, and she said, I would really like to do a, uh, you know, a night of true crime, for example, um, within the hotel, and we'd pay you X amount and would you do this?

I had an offer to go to, um, the Middle East to do some, uh, how to, how to make a podcast right over there. So it what sometimes the opportunities that come, they're not necessarily directly related to your content, but more to your experience. Yeah. So that's also something, and I, I was, aside from doing all of this, and I'm aware, I sound a bit mad, um, I also was teaching one day a week at, um, the oldest journalism school in the country.

And I was teaching how to, uh, it was actually originally journalism that I was teaching for the NCTJ, which is the National Council for the Training of Journalists. And they wanted to have someone with TV experience who would come in and teach broadcast journalism. I [00:38:00] used to work on the right stuff back in the day.

Um, I've worked on a few different newsy type shows. So, um, they got me in, loved, loved the kids. It was down the road from my house. It was one day a week. It was really nice. And then I started getting offers from universities, for example, to say, would you come in and do some guest lecturing for, you know, a week and we'll pay you X amount.

So, so the opportunities do come Yeah. In, in very different ways. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. Well, it's, it's, I think it's such a fantastic case study, Naomi, for, um, for TV businesses who are, you know, really looking to, to venture into podcasting, creating their own IP, and seeing all the different ways they can monetize it. So, so congratulations on your success.

Thank you. Um, so now it's time for Story of the Week. Story of the week. Um, so, uh, tell us what the TV or content industry news story over the past seven days or so that's caught your eye. 

Naomi Channell: So this is one that, this is from lived experience that I'm glad that this is. Okay. So, um, so [00:39:00] Spotify have now released parental controls to their free users.

So they were, um, they were on the paid premium plans and the family plans. And you could, like YouTube, you could set parental controls, um, but they weren't on the free ones. So we, we do have Spotify family plan, so we were always okay, but I was very humbled one day when my, I was dropping my daughter off at school, um, who's a preteen, and one of the moms came up and said, um, oh, my daughter said you do a podcast.

She's been listening to your podcast. Now I obviously am like. Is it the infidelity one or is it the true crime one? I don't think you probably should be listening to. And she was like, oh, I don't really know what a podcast is, you know? And I was sort of explaining it to her and I said, oh, this is, you know, this is, this is what I do.

And she said, oh, oh God. Oh, okay. I didn't know, I didn't know she was listening to that. And I was like, oh, I wonder what's happened. So I said to my daughter, have, you've been telling people that I do do a podcast? And she said, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I tell, I, [00:40:00] I told my friends, you've got a blue tick, such a, she still thinks I'm the uncool person in the world, so I don't really know where that's, let's lever it up.

But she, um, but then I thought, oh my goodness. And I, I did have to say to someone was like, oh, it's really lovely that she's doing that, but actually she probably shouldn't be listening to the stuff that I, that I do. Yeah, it's, it's probably not appropriate. Um, so that was a bit of a learning curve. So when I saw that, it instantly made me think of that.

And I thought, okay, 'cause I don't, I'm not out here trying to traumatise preteens, you know? Um, so I think that's, that's a really good move. So I'm really happy about that. 

Justin Crosby: Alright. Okay. Um, and how about Hero of the Week? Who's your hero 

Naomi Channell: of the week? Hero of the week? Okay. So there's, um, there's, there's a few, but I'm gonna go, uh, I'm, I'm not, I'm not being a kiss as I promise, but I think it's gotta be Rachel from Spotify.

And I'll tell you why. Because she has opened doors for us, not just within, uh, Spotify for totally true crime, but also, um, there [00:41:00] have been some incredible people that are doing some amazing work that really wanna break into podcasting. And they've got really important causes. But if they didn't have a connection to a platform, their podcast would probably just kind of have to have to find a way of cutting through the noise.

And if they, you know, these people don't have production experience. These are people who are trying to campaign for changes in the law, for example. So being able to introduce people and have that great connection to Spotify video, um, has been invaluable. And Rachel actually came to me, um, as someone who I think she'd listened to real.

Which is my weekly one. And she'd said, have you ever thought about turning it to video? I'd really like to help you do that if you wanted to do that. Um, and she's just been a continued support. And then she did, she, I, I was called to my kids for like at least four seconds, the other, the other week because, um, they gave me a billboard in Leicester Square and in Manchester at, at [00:42:00] the Dale Centre.

And I went down and, um, Spotify photographer took some nice photos and made me, made me not look too ropey. And, um, I, it was a real like, wow, look, Leicester Square, this is amazing. Yeah. Um, and so I, yeah, I just wanted to, we often don't pay homage to the people that help us along the way that are kind of in the background.

So, um, big thank you to Rachel at Spotify. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. Um, well I, that's something that I've really noticed since I've got to, uh, get to know the Spotify guys over the last few months. And, uh, and certainly it's very, very different to YouTube, which is basically, I mean, it's a scale thing. I realise that, but, um, you know, good luck of getting, getting a hold of anybody at YouTube, um, you know, yeah.

Whether you've got a question or anything like that. Yeah. It's just, uh, you 

Naomi Channell: know, 

Justin Crosby: and, and I understand why, but I think, you know, that. Um, that sort of personal touch in that, you know, [00:43:00] editorial, uh, interest is, is really important, isn't it? 

Naomi Channell: Yeah. And just guiding us as well, because we are TV first in our heads.

Yeah. Or we have been for 20 years, so it almost feels like she's sort of holding our hands as we're, as we're going through this, uh, on unchartered terrain, should we say. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. Yeah. By the way, we're not sponsored by Spotify, just so you know. Um, and uh, okay. And finally, who or what are you telling to get in the bin now?

Do you 

Naomi Channell: know what Justin? I tell, I tell you what, um, uh, I, there's a few things I do. You know, I'm gonna go for a run. You can cut it. I'm using this therapy today. Number one, I exchanged contracts on a house today. The stamp duty makes me wanna cry. Yeah. What is it? What do we, I I probably sound very, very silly and stupid, but what, why have I, why have I got to find all tens of thousands of pounds to move house?

Uh, but also five o'clock meetings. Come on. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah, 

Naomi Channell: on a Friday. On a Friday. 

Justin Crosby: Who does that? 

Naomi Channell: [00:44:00] Oh, I tell, what are 

Justin Crosby: you gonna name and 

Naomi Channell: share? No, no. 'cause they're a commissioner, so. All 

Justin Crosby: right. A commissioner doing that as well. 

Naomi Channell: Five o'clock on a Friday. I wanna be, I wanna be at least halfway through an epi roll. Yeah.

At five o'clock on a Friday, you know, time to switch off. Um, so, uh, yeah, may maybe five o'clock meetings can get in the bin. 

Justin Crosby: It can definitely get in the bin. Um, Naomi, thank you so much for coming on, TellyCast. It's been really lovely speaking with you. And, uh, thank you. And as I say, it's, uh, it is really inspirational what you're doing over there at Curve Media and all the podcast work you're doing.

So, uh, congratulations. 

Naomi Channell: Thank you very much. Appreciate, 

thanks for coming on, TellyCast. 

Naomi Channell: Thanks. 

Justin Crosby: Well that's about it for another week's show. Thanks for listening. TellyCast is produced by Spirit Studios and recorded in London. We'll be back with another show next week. Until then, stay safe.