From Gold Rush to YouTube, AI and the Future of TV Production

What happens when two experienced television producers decide to leave the traditional TV industry and build a digital-first business from scratch?

In this episode of TellyCast, Justin Crosby sits down with Pete Campion, Co-Founder of IndyStudios, to explore how he and former BBC producer Matt Ramsden have made the leap from broadcast television into the creator economy.

Pete spent more than two decades producing large-scale international factual series, including the hugely successful Gold Rush franchise. But as the economics of traditional television became increasingly challenging, he saw an opportunity to apply those storytelling skills to YouTube, digital channels and AI-powered content.

The conversation explores the realities of building a digital-first production company, why TV producers should have confidence in their storytelling skills, how Indie Studios is developing original YouTube channels, and why AI is creating entirely new opportunities for factual storytelling.

Pete also discusses audience behaviour on YouTube, the importance of owning intellectual property, collaborating with creators, working with brands, and the lessons traditional production companies need to learn if they want to succeed in the new production economy.

Elsewhere, Justin and Pete discuss the future of reality television, duty of care in content production, the opportunities for experienced TV producers in social video, and why storytelling remains the most valuable skill in any medium.

Whether you’re a producer, creator, commissioner, studio executive or media entrepreneur, this episode offers a fascinating insight into how one production company is navigating the transition from television to digital-first content.

Key Topics

• Building IndyStudios after redundancy from traditional TV
 • Why experienced TV producers are moving into digital-first content
 • Gold mining channels and niche audience strategies
 • Working with creators and athletes
 • The opportunities and risks of AI-generated storytelling
 • Legends of Gold and AI-powered factual content
 • What TV producers can learn from YouTube creators
 • Audience-first storytelling versus commissioner-led development
 • Duty of care in digital production
 • The future of independent production companies

Episode Highlights

• Pete’s journey from Gold Rush to founding IndyStudios
 • Why “storytelling will win” regardless of technology changes
 • How AI is unlocking previously impossible factual stories
 • Building owned IP instead of relying on commissions
 • Lessons learned from publishing on YouTube
 • The biggest mindset shifts TV producers need to make
 • Why collaboration is essential for traditional indies entering digital

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Transcript

Justin Crosby: [00:00:00] Hi, I am Justin Crosby, and welcome to another episode of TellyCast. On this week's show, we have Pete Campion from Indie Studios, a really new and exciting independent business in the digital first space, but with a whole load of linear experience. And I think what they're doing is super exciting. So Pete, welcome to the show.

Great. 

Pete Campion: Nice. See you. Yeah, good. Thanks for having us. 

Justin Crosby: Not at all. Not at all. Great to see you at the, uh, digital Video awards last week. Loved it. And you were, you were nominated in the AI category. We, 

Pete Campion: we were. You know, we didn't win, but we're not holding it against you. We turned up the day. 

Justin Crosby: Well, well, we we're gonna talk about ai, we're gonna talk about I mean no conversation around digital First is, is complete without AI and the, and the impact that's having and for businesses like yours, really.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. In order to improve workflows and actually be really, really creative which you guys are doing. But let's, let's start from the beginning of Indie Studios then, or actually let's even start further back than that. So tell us about Indie Studios. Tell us about [00:01:00] the business and, uh, and your background in tv.

Pete Campion: Yeah, well, so, I mean, I've been doing this for 25 years, I think almost. So did the, the classic sort of TV route producer, uh, researcher, producer, director. And then I got into, my passion was always like adventure and getting out there in the world. So I ended up running quite a number of big shows adventure shows, Everest Jungles, all that sort of stuff.

And then finally ended up at, uh, raw, which are, are famous for lots of many things. A brilliant production company. But I ended up working on the Gold Rush brand 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: And their spinoff shores. And I was there for like eight years. In the end, a wonderful place to work. But the last few years, you could see there the tide was turning, things were slowing down and, you know, um, and I was just thinking, what am I gonna do next?

Really? You know, you don't want to ever be in a position where you're doing the same thing for diminishing returns. Right? 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: And I felt like I'd had a brilliant TV career. So I could see the end was kind of on the horizon and I thought. [00:02:00] The internet and YouTube especially had just gripped my fascination for about the previous three years.

And then, uh, in steps, Matt Ramsden. So he moved, so I got made redundant in March, 2025, and Matt moved in to the street next to me in April, 2025. And Matt, and I've known each other for many, many years. And, uh, he's a brilliant producer, brilliant director, similar sort of trajectory. But Matt ended up working at the BBC doing big events, emotional films, stand up to cancer all that sort of stuff.

Working for specifically with, he's worked a lot with the Royals and doing the Dday celebrations. And he's worked with veterans. I think he's probably filmed more World War II veterans than anybody else. Right. So we ended up there. We are two streets apart in the kind of beginnings of the summer. 

Justin Crosby: Did you meet in the pub?

Pete Campion: No, we met in his got, he had his new house. He's doing a renovation project. And uh, we, uh, so I went round and we just got talking in his garden, you know, and I was thinking, well, I, I haven't got anything to do, so [00:03:00] I'll help you fix the garden up. And then we, you know, we talked, we talked for ages and we just, it just sort of clicked really.

It was like, what are we gonna do? You know, we're, you know, we've, we've had brilliant careers and we've really enjoyed it, but we can see the businesses changing. Our passion doesn't lie there anymore. And what do we wanna do with our lives? You know, like, we wanna stay in this industry and maybe there's an opportunity here, you know?

Yeah. And I had a few things that was bubbling under, and Matt had a few things. And I think by the end of, end of May last year, probably like 12 months ago, we had the business going and we decided we would sit in our bedrooms and talk to each other on Zoom. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: And that was the formation of it, really.

But, um, it's just been a, it's been a wonderful year, you know, like out of, you know, the past years you, when you're always waiting for stuff to happen and decisions to happen and big ideas. And yeah. With the strength of a production company behind you, you can go for the big shots, but the big shots weren't going, the sort of medium shots weren't going, and even the little ones weren't, [00:04:00] you know, so there's just this new pathway opened up to us and the rise of tech and AI and and going back to really, you know, what I, at the end of my career, I was managing huge things, big shoots in, I think the last shoot I did was in Brazil, in the Amazon.

There was like 50 people out there. Uh, we were out there for like seven, eight weeks. It was backwards and forth to Brazil. The stress was insane. Right. And I was further, further away from the thing that I really love doing, which is being creative and telling stories. Yeah. And that has been the kind of, the eye opening thing for me.

And then along with meeting this new next generation of people, like these young, I don't wanna say kids 'cause that's disrespectful, but these young producers and creatives who are, I just have got a completely different way that they view the industry and they know much more than I'll never, ever know about the digital platforms.

But they're creative and they move quick and they're full of ideas. And that was like, it's a revolution for me really. 

Justin Crosby: Well, it's what's really interesting I think, is I think your, [00:05:00] I think that will resonate with a lot of people, a lot of our listeners and viewers, because, you know, whether they're in production companies right now and they can see things are drying up, things aren't great.

And obviously, you know, reading all the news and the press basically just seeing the direction of traveller, people not watching linear TV anymore and everybody, you know, the rise of YouTube and other social platforms as well, obviously. I mean, what what, what strikes me as really interesting is obviously you have been involved in such big productions, as you say, you know, massive productions and, and, and it's almost diametrically opposite of what you need when it comes to digital first, which is about being super lean, super creative.

Mm-hmm. And and really being able to. Tell great stories, but on a shoestring, your experience at Matt's makes an enormous difference. Right. And it's a really interesting cocktail, if you like, for a new business. 

Pete Campion: I think so, yeah. I mean, I think we, we, you know, we [00:06:00] come into it with a lot of preconceptions and we, but we come into it with a, with a lot of experience, you know, and I think a lot of storytelling experience and you know, but what we don't have to worry about is like the length of the show, where the ad breaks are, and all this kind of, you know, uh, the, all this kind of background noise that's going on and, and everything that it takes to get a production off the ground when you can just say to somebody, do you wanna do it?

Do I want to do it? Have we got a camera? Can we edit it? Yeah, let's do it. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: And I think that's sort of freeing, isn't it? Um, and I think the, the unlearning of the TV industry has been one of the, excuse me, one of the hardest things really, you know, I think, uh, it strikes me, we, we've got a reality channel about a guy who has a gold mine.

So that's where I ended up in in California, and we got it together and we sent someone out and did a bit of filming for him. And my first instinct was to like, cut this down. It's not a tight story, you know? And then within a couple of weeks, the audience were telling us, where's the rest of [00:07:00] this?

Don't edit it, give us a story. Yeah. But let this play out. Let us really be involved in this, in this life and this experience. So things like that just kind of blow my mind and the unlearning of it and the closeness you are to the audience as well, where, 

Justin Crosby: so it's listening to the audience as opposed to listening to a commissioner.

Pete Campion: Exactly. Yeah. You know, like go up the chain, you know, like the, the people who found the stories that go up the chain to reach me, I've gotta go up the chain to reach the commissioners. And, um, and you're just taking a wild guess, right? You, you might have talent, you might have all the things in place, which makes something work, but you don't know until you've spent nine months making this thing, 

Justin Crosby: making a six or a 12 part thing, and you just, and it, and it could, it could bomb, right?

Yeah. Yeah. You know, and more often than not, I would suggest it is now, you know, those shows are, are not getting the views anymore. So, they're not getting, if they are getting commissioned at all, they're not certainly not getting recommissioned. 

Pete Campion: No. And I think you've seen the diminishing returns, right?

So the, the, the, you know, the, the screws are getting [00:08:00] tightened, but the, you know, the risk, especially where I come from, right? The, the risk level wasn't changing, you know, because we, uh, I was doing a show which is about a gold miner who's travelling the world, right? And, um, fi trying to find gold. And you find gold is really dangerous places, right?

And really remote places. So the risk lesbian doesn't change, but the screw is getting tightened on the finance, right? So the pressure is just rambling. And then, like you say, you know, at the end of it, if nobody watches it, 

Justin Crosby: yeah. 

Pete Campion: You know, you, you are incrementally sort of losing this audience.

But where are that, where's that audience going? Right? And the other thing about us is, where's that older audience go? Where's that more mature audience go? The over 30 fives. And we, you know, when we started it, and probably still now, there's a big push of people going to YouTube over 35. Now they need to be served, right?

And they're being served by creators, but they need to be served with really good stories. And as YouTube transitions from an app to tv, what are you gonna do? There's a big opportunity to get these people. One night, a week for an hour and get [00:09:00] millions of them, you know? 

Justin Crosby: And I think that's what you know, the superpower of businesses like yours is, you know, you've had 20 years in the industry of, of learning how to tell these stories and compromising in many cases.

But now, you know, there's the ability to, to, to apply that with all the skills that you've learned to, you know, taking it direct to an audience and making, you know, really fulfilling and enjoyable shows. Yeah. So, so tell us about what sort of content that you are creating then in that.

So you are a year old. 

Pete Campion: Yeah. 

Justin Crosby: But tell us about what, you know, what content you've created so far. 

Pete Campion: Well, yeah, I mean, we, so we, you come in and you look at this kind of vast landscape, oh, I like that, I wanna do this, I wanna do that. But we sort of clocked early on that we should sort of stay in our lanes, right.

Especially in the early days. So I've still got big connections to the gold mining community after being there. And so we've got two gold mining channels. We've got Blood and Gold, which is a reality gold mining show, which is [00:10:00] basically a guy who's got a hundred year old California gold mine. He's fell into his hands.

It's a family gold mine, and now he's trying to reopen it. So every two weeks we try and get like a 30, 40 minute video out, and it's got incredible engagement with that audience. You know, people are loving it and asking for it all the time. So that essentially is gold rush for digital. And, uh, and then we've got our Legends of Gold Series, which is the AI History Channel, which I think we'll probably talk more about.

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: And one of the big things that we we got, the first job we got was through Mats, connections, working with, um, military and BBC in that style programme. We got, um, we got the Remembrance assembly for the RBL. So we, uh, that was a digital, just Royal 

Justin Crosby: British 

Pete Campion: Legion. Royal British Legion. Yeah. The, it was a 35 minute show teaching children about remembrance in a changing world.

It was very you know, that was really clear that where our TV skills came into that the client was, they'd been doing a live show. There's a lot of stress and pressure in a live show, and there is, it's hard to [00:11:00] be creative in a, in a live environment. So we took it outta the studio. We created like a magazine show for them.

And their talk was like a hundred thousand kids to watch it across schools in the UK on September, sorry, November the 11th at 11:00 AM and, uh, and we got 250,000, you know, and it just, so we, so having the gold mine, having mass connections to the military and history and charity that really sort of, got us off.

And then we've got other sort of wildest wings like we, we manage and, and look after lots of Park core athletes. And, uh, we, we sort of help them and assist them with their content. And that's been a really strong arm of our business. And I think we are looking to really develop that side. Really cool kids who are incredible athletes who are kind of digital ready.

They're digital native, you know, they've already produced their own content. Uh, so we're looking for roots in, in that respect.

Justin Crosby: And that is, is, are you, you are acting as a, as a, you said you manage them as [00:12:00] well as, as as shooting them. Mean, tell us a little bit about that, because you are not ring channels for parkour athletes or 

Pete Campion: We, well, we are, um, we are kind of editorial oversight and management really.

So we're making sure that their content is good. It has stories in, it's not just people jumping off routes and 

Justin Crosby: they're, they're already well known athletes. I, I assume? Yeah. 

Pete Campion: Well, they're Dom, uh, tomorrow is the largest, um, poker athlete in the world. He's got three and a half million Instagram followers.

Right. And he is a Australian guy. Bags of fun, incredible athlete, zero fear, you know, I think he's got, um, a, Matt will probably correct me, but he's, he's got the most viewed Instagram reel ever of him. Practically nearly killing himself, right? Yeah. Um, but the guy is, uh, the guy's incredible. And, uh, and so we wanna work with him and develop ideas with him.

He's a Red Bull athlete, so we've got a good couple of pitches in with Red Bull. And then the there's a young guys in the UK who are the next [00:13:00] gen of, of Parker athletes who, you know, they've got all the, they've got all the ability in the world. They just need the stories and the ideas, you know, so we're helping them shape them, but we're also helping, you know, because this is the new world, right?

We're helping them get brand deals, we're helping them execute those bits of content that they need. And we're seeing real, we're seeing real movement in there as well. And then what else? So we're also doing, uh, we've also just, linked up with a charity called Roadworks Media, which Matt was on the board of.

And Roadworks Media helps young people get out of youth violence and out of the Youth d Defend service by teaching them creative skills especially storytelling and filmmaking. So we're gonna work with those guys to try and get them more visibility and, uh, I'm sure young people, there's a different route into the industry now.

You know, we all remember making cups of tea and running and driving vans and parking enterprise vans. But the kind of route to market is so much easier for young people with stories to tell, I think. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: And we want to [00:14:00] inspire them to do that, you know, and we wanna work on that partnership because you know, it's just a fantastic place to be really.

Yeah. And we've got at, at the minute, we've just about got the bandwidth for that. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: And then we've got numerous other things. We've got we're out looking at talking to brands and trying to build, um, a suite of channels which are basically based around our sort of, our sort of front runner, which is the legends of Gold show.

Yeah. You know, the history AI show. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. Um, just coming back to what I was touching on earlier is that, you know, that mix that you have that, you know, the superpower if you like, in the digital first base of having your storytelling expertise and what have you. That seems to me, a real sort of rep recipe for success.

I mean, looking at other. More traditional TV production businesses now as they're looking at digital first. You know, what would be your advice to them and, you know, how, how do you think that many of these businesses are viewing digital first [00:15:00] right now? 

Pete Campion: Yeah. I mean, I think they're probably it's sort of depends who you are, right?

Because, you know, I came from raw, huge back catalogue of gold shows, you know? And, uh, there's a huge opportunity there, right? Like to 

Justin Crosby: loads of stories still to tell, 

Pete Campion: loads of stories still to tell, but loads of, you know, loads of content, right. You know, like, look, that could be repurposed and repacked.

So if you've got something like that, I think that's, you know, look what's happening with ITV and ITN, you know, going into their archives now 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: And bringing it to digital. There's mega opportunities in that. But working, you know, transferring to do what Matt and I are doing, what Indie's doing right now is, um, I think you've just gotta collaborate, you know, because you know, the more, the, the, the knowledge curve is pretty steep, I think, right?

To turn your kind of production company skills and understand the business side of it. But collaboration, I think, with people already here is a really good way to go, you know, because, um, you've gotta learn something really, really fast, right? And if the overheads are there and the, and the, [00:16:00] the kind of the edge of the cliff is looming.

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: Um, trying to redo all the work that we've done in the last year and people, like Spirit Studios have done in the last 10, I think is really difficult place to start. So, um, but collaboration is key, I think. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: Yeah. 

Justin Crosby: And obviously sticking to the lane that you know, exactly. Which is something that you've done, you know, because that seems to be the obvious opportunity, the connections that you 

Pete Campion: Yeah.

Justin Crosby: That you've built up over years, you know? 

Pete Campion: Yeah. You built, you build up connections, you meet people, but also you, you know, you kind of get, like, you a fact end producer, right? You're a reality producer, you're a documentary maker, you know, like, what, what did you really skill at? You know? And, um, because they are different and, um, they are different disciplines.

So sticking to what, you know, I think, yeah. All this is less about the production companies, more about the producers, right. Because, you know, I don't think you just walk in and pick the side men up. But that being said, there's, as the, as the Americans say, there's riches and niches, right?

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: So you get on that niche Yeah. Or that niche, and you just hammer it, you [00:17:00] know? 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: And that's essentially what we are, we're not quite there yet, but we, we will keep working on these niches which are which I feel like we're sort of experts in. Right. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. Well then also another point, I think you mentioned your Royal British Legion Yeah.

Project as well. Presumably they wouldn't have chosen you without your broadcast expertise and knowledge and experience for a digital 

Pete Campion: Yes. 

Justin Crosby: Project. Yes. So that shows, I think, you know, the, the opportunity that's there for experienced TV producers working in moving to digital first is Yeah. You know, that that trust and that experience is the superpower that, you know, you can make work for you.

Pete Campion: Yeah. And I think it's, it's like, um, we know lots of digital producers are getting opportunities with brands, but when it comes to charities and institutions and or bigger brands or anything with a bit of money Right. Where's the adults in the room? Right. Yeah. Because I think that's essentially, you know, not only do we, um, do the creative side of it, but we understand that, you know, we understand the budget [00:18:00] and then scheduling and I think we understand how to run a production and how to look after your crew and make sure everything, you know.

'cause the thing about the RBL as well, it was vulnerable people. There was children there as well. Right. And it's, there's not a lot of money to do that. And I think it's a, we were talking to a brand the other day who said they, they'd bashed backed away some jobs with children in, and they were potentially lucrative, but they just didn't have the knowledge or the, um, experience to do it.

And I think that's where we come in, right. You know, we've dealt with vulnerable people or we've dealt with children. We've, we've got protocols embedded in us, right. Um, and we understand how to, how to bring something to life while touching all of those bases as well. So yeah, that's, that's another thing that TV producers bring.

Justin Crosby: Yes. That duty of care. Yeah. Which is so important that digital native producers perhaps don't have that experience, so. 

Pete Campion: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it's just what, kind of. Before, it's a last minute thought, right? 

Justin Crosby: Mm-hmm. 

Pete Campion: You know, um, and someone says, we're shooting tomorrow. Has anyone got [00:19:00] release forms for these kids?

Yeah. You know what I mean? Or has anyone got has anyone thought about this kind of, you know, senior citizen who you're gonna put in the show and how they're gonna react to being there for eight hours a day? Yeah's thinking ahead on the problems, right? 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. I mean, I, I, I can see this potentially becoming a, a bit of a red flag of, in the, in the years ahead, as well as, as, as more and more digital native companies start to work with brands in different ways than, you know, there are certain protocols, as you say, that they may not have that much experience in.

And there's a lot of, we've seen a lot of reality shows that are brand funded that perhaps are not being produced in, to the, with the same rigour. 'cause they, you know, they can't, in some cases they just can't be because of the budgets. But this is, you know, this is maybe something to watch.

And we all know listen, reality TV's in a bit of a state at the moment, well, maybe we'll talk a little bit about that later on with, uh, married at first sight. But 

Pete Campion: I think there's one other thing I would say on that is like, there's, [00:20:00] there's kind of this end of the spectrum, which is oppressive, right?

And there's this end of the spectrum where there's nothing. And I think it just takes a bit of common sense, right? Because I think for the, for digital production companies working with brands and lots of money and lots of risk, it'll take one thing and it'll affect everybody. 

Justin Crosby: Yes. Yeah. 

Pete Campion: You know, so I think it's a, it's an industry wide thing that we should start looking.

Justin Crosby: Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. Completely agree. Um, we've touched on it a little bit, but let's talk about AI and how you are using ai. Mm-hmm. So the company's a year old. 

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. 

Justin Crosby: Have you been playing with AI in uh, before Indy Studios? Or is it just, you know, have you just been able to harness the the capabilities of, of different AI models in the last year and, and create shows?

Because I know that's what you're, that's what you're doing. You're, you're developing AI shows as 

Pete Campion: well. Yeah, that's it. I mean, I think we have, for, it just felt very clear to me and Matt, you know, like this, um, like reconstruction and drama right? Are the things that are entertaining to people to [00:21:00] watch.

Right. But they're high budget to make an AI done. Right. And used correctly, you know, what's, um, it just gives you access to a million stories that are just too expensive if nothing else to produce. Right? Yeah. And uh, and I think that's the, that's, and that also helps you tell the narrative elements of stories which, um, essentially are the difficult parts.

Right. You know? So I think AI sits in a really interesting space in the factual media. Yeah. Because we can now unlock things in a way that, maybe only, um, Ridley Scott could, you know, when you're talking about, um, ancient Romes and gladiators, right. Right the way to, to sort of really niche times in history.

I think that the, the question around the 20th century and modern time is where I think it starts to get more, more sticky. But this is gonna help us tell stories and and visualise narrow developments to stories that previously you just can't do in this space. Or even kind of smaller production companies can't do, or smaller channels can't do.

But if you look at the American [00:22:00] market, you know, uh, like the Fox Network and History Network and stuff, they do these huge recreation shows about history. They cost a fortune. They don't have to anymore. Um, so I think that's that's right. But I think the big thing is to keep the human element right.

Not that's the only thing that's changed here is that we've got this brilliant tool, which can visualise it for us. It's like the storytelling is key. The scripting is key. It's having a brilliant editor, which we have for our current project. He's fantastic. And then, then with the ai, I think, you know, if you can prompt right and speak clearly to it, you get back good results.

Justin Crosby: Yeah. So it's, so what we talking about is, and we're talking about legends of Gold, Dave of Gold, yeah. Dave Turrid, right? Yeah. Which, uh, it's, you know, it's a, I think it's a brilliant channel that, that you have. It's really, thank you. Exciting. And, uh, uh, we'll take a look at that in a second. But, um, but you are saying that it's actually at its heart, it's a human based project.

Yeah. And all the skills that you've brought to it are the skills that you've learned over the years producing Gold Rush [00:23:00] and other, and other shows like that. But it's really just the recreation elements that are AI driven. But just tell us about the show. 

Pete Campion: Yeah. I mean, we, so, so basically Dave Shean I worked with him nearly a decade ago, right?

And, um, we did a couple of series. Dave Chi's lost mine and, um, an American's Backyard Gold. Dave Chi's lost Mine, went enormous, I think over the Pandemic. We did a 26 part series or something, so, you know, which he always meant. Dave was on location in Alaska, Colorado. 

Justin Crosby: Was he a cast member of Gold Rush? 

Pete Campion: He was original Gold Rush cast member.

He left Gold Rush Discovery, give him his old show. And that kind of dovetailed me and me and him meeting. So we had a, you know, we, we were. It was always a history based show, right? It was finding old minds and trying to bring them back to life. We did, um, we did a special one year in the pandemic when you couldn't do much to talk about, um, the the history of gold in the United States.

And it was really, it went really well, that special. And it was, it was him and his garage and me on Zoom asking him questions and a [00:24:00] cameraman with a mask and, 30 feet away or whatever you had to be. So actually there's the blueprint there, right? Pretty much for how, how that works, which is the human element of underpinning it.

And then this year's, 250 years of America. And, Dave was just kept coming to me saying like, the gold history runs right through the heart of this nation. So, and we talked about doing it in very various different guises and then the AI came in and it's like, it's no good if we're just gonna sit around in your kind of, um, studio and just put old pictures up.

Uh, but the AI's really helped us bring that to life. Really. Yeah. Um, and it's cinematic and it's fun and you know, we're using a lesson of it now than when we started, but we're only like seven episodes in. And we're finding our fate with it. You know, there's some comments say they hate it, other comments say they love it.

Most people don't even talk about the air, they talk about the story. Yeah. And for me, that's what it's about, right? Yeah. It's just a story. 

Justin Crosby: So that's been, uh, that show has been going, what, six months or so? 

Pete Campion: February 

Justin Crosby: right. Okay. Four months. 

Pete Campion: Yeah. 

Justin Crosby: [00:25:00] Yeah. And uh, the channel's already up to over 10,000, uh, subscribers. I 

Pete Campion: think 16,000, I think now. 

Justin Crosby: 16. Okay. Yeah. 

Pete Campion: Yeah. And that last, last Dutchman episode didn't still going, it's done 170,000 views? I think so, yeah.

So, you know, work it, I'll be honest, it's working right now on, in, on digital with AI is, there's a lot of panic around it, you know, and I think the platforms don't really know what to do with it. You know, when everyone talks about the YouTube algorithm, it's just an added layer of unpredictability to it.

Yeah. But I think storytelling will win, you know, and I think what Matt and I both said is that well, let's just invest in this and make it, because if we're not out there on, as Matt says, a lot, which I think is a great cause that you make your mistakes on the field of play hitting digital.

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: So get out there and start doing it, but 

Justin Crosby: yeah. 

Pete Campion: You know, whether, whether it'll even be ar, ai on its hundredth episode, we don't know yet. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. Well, I'll say the, the, you know, the, the, you start with a, with a rough template and you listen to the audience and you [00:26:00] iterate as it goes on. And it could, could turn into a completely different show, as you say by episode a hundred or 

Pete Campion: whatever it is.

But I think, look, I think this is the key message for all of this is like, storytelling will win it. You know, it's all this as humans itself. Yeah. So, like, good storytellers, good story, ability to tell good stories, and understand a narrative. Then understanding this digital world on top of that is gonna set everybody up for success, especially when we're talking to XT V.

People. Like have faith in your abilities to tell a story. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: And the technology will change and everything will change around it. And personally, and we think it's just gonna give us access to things that nobody's talked about in a very long time. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: You know, 

Justin Crosby: well, I think it's, you know, I think it's really you, great message that, you know, that a lot of people might be feeling in traditional tv, a little bit despondent and, you know, how can I apply my skills to this new landscape that I don't really understand?

And but, the, the skills that you have are, are super valuable and applied in the right way. They can, you know, they [00:27:00] can, they can create a whole new lease of life and opportunity for you. Right? 

Pete Campion: I think so. And I think also it's like, um, YouTube storytellers, big creators. Right.

You might not like it. But kudos to them. Yeah. They know how to do it really well. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: And there's lots to learn from them. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: You know? So just evolve with the storytelling techniques. 

Justin Crosby: What do you think you've learned actually around publishing on YouTube as a really experienced TV producer in the last six months or so?

What do you, what do you think you've learned most? The biggest takeaway, 

Pete Campion: I think I've learned that, you know, context is not important. Get on with it, you know? Yeah. I'm, I think I'm murder for that, right. I'm trying to set the world up too big. Get on with it, you know, I think, um, I and find your story and keep relentlessly telling it, and it's been really interesting, you know, like obviously you, it's a bit of a stings the ego a bit.

When our date a guy Max says, uh, not really Pete. I'm like, excuse me, I've got many years experience [00:28:00] and he's right. And actually I just swallow my pride and get on with it, you know? Yeah. And I learn about that all the time. Yeah. You know, I learn about the wi how reactive people are, how fast they move.

And um, and I love that as well. 'cause I've probably got DD myself, so I just, I hate inertia. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: So actually this is good for me. Yeah. If things are flying at me, I'm more than happy. Yeah. And I think Matt's the same in that. So like this, um. It's a new world. It's a new skill, and like I said, just find your.

You've gotta appreciate it, right? 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: Even if you don't like it, you have to appreciate the amount of views that creators are doing, the amount of business that YouTube's doing, the amount of stories that people are not gonna have from their bedrooms. Even if you, even if you think, oh, it's not me, you've gotta appreciate this world and you've gotta learn it.

Justin Crosby: Yeah. So finally let's take you forward three years 

Pete Campion: mm-hmm. 

Justin Crosby: From now. Where do you want to be as a business and what, what do you hope that you'll be doing in three years time? Uh, indie Studios, 

Pete Campion: I hope we have [00:29:00] multiple channels and, and, uh, that we own, you know, and that we have ownership over.

I hope we create content for digital broadcasters. You know, I really wanna do that. I hope we, um, we can be forefront in how to use AI and how to use it ethically and responsibly. And I hope we, you know, we do some good work with the charity I mentioned as well. You know, like that's, and like all these things are, they're vast and many, but I just hope as, as I said at the start, I was a, I was an adventurer, right?

That's all I wanted to do. I just wanna have an exciting life, and I think this is an exciting life right now. Yeah. You know, like, so, and yeah. And then I wanna be rich and go Turkey, get my taste done and my ponytail. Yeah. 

Justin Crosby: And can we see you in the, in the jungles with the GoPro, you know, to create the show, 

Pete Campion: or, I would love to do that.

Yeah. I'm, I've talked with a couple of people at the moment and a couple of great agents about, about that as well. And, uh, I'm personally, I'm helping a few YouTube adventurers just to get connections [00:30:00] and, you know, look at these guys and I go, you need to talk to my mate X because I'm worried for you.

You know, they're 

Justin Crosby: going to Bolivia without this, that, 

Pete Campion: or 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: All these people walk in the Darion gap I see on YouTube, which is eminently fascinating and kudos to them doing it. But like, how are you gonna get out? Yeah. And what have you thought about before you've gone there? You know, I think that's where I, you know, where I see, but I, I admire them.

I think they're brilliant and, uh, and it's, it's just dropped that big, you know, when we're in the jungle with big red cameras and stuff, it's dropped that facade, hasn't it? It's dropped that kind of artifice and I think people love it. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: Yeah. So I want one of them. 

Justin Crosby: Alright. 

Pete Campion: I don't wanna go this time. I don't know.

Justin Crosby: Okay. Well, I think, I think what's really exciting about your business is that you know, you, you, you're going out there, you're creating your own content, you're creating your brands and, and potentially in two, three years time, I can see a lot of the networks that you've actually been commissioned by and producing shows for potentially [00:31:00] you can be licencing your own finished shows and finished series back to them because that's really looks like the way that it's Yeah.

Going in terms of the new model. 

Pete Campion: Yeah. 

Justin Crosby: So that's, uh, that's really exciting. So now we're gonna go into a story of the week 

Pete Campion: Oh yeah. 

Justin Crosby: Pete here of the week and get in the bin. So let's start with your story of the week, which is a new story that's caught your eye in the past seven days. 

Pete Campion: Well, yeah, I think we, well I think it's caught everybody's eye, right?

It's the hump scandal around married at first sight, I think. Mm-hmm. And, um, I think it's, you know, I mean obviously I don't particularly wanna talk about the details of it, but I think it just, it's, as we said before, it's the, showing how, uh, sort of difficult it's to work with normal, well, like regular people and put people in front of camera and the stakes applied to that and the consequences, you know, and the duties of care that people should be having around it.

And it's so high risk, you know, like, I think, um, and more so as people become more aware as society moves forward [00:32:00] these shows are, really entertaining, for a certain audience. They're big business for the broadcasters, but what damage are they doing and how do you mitigate that?

Justin Crosby: Yeah, I mean, I saw an MP can't remember which MP it was. There were coaches saying this is, you know, this is a disaster waiting to happen. And you kinda look at it in that context now and thinking, of course it was, this is ridiculous. This is, uh, you know, the, the, you know, the, the risk and the positions that you are putting, the type of people who would put themselves in that position, the first place in a really sort of questionable circumstance.

And it's, uh, I mean, it's, it's, it's shocking. Really terrible. Not only the, some of the contributors, some of the producers have come out and said that, you know, a lot of the I think they're called it the toxicity coming out, the production company as well as, you know, uh, as well as, you know, the, the show in itself was just quite something that, they were appalled with.

And they [00:33:00] were, they've gone on the record to, to talk about that. So, I mean, do you think, do you think that the married at First Sight scandal, the fact that it is, a major news story and has been for the last two, three weeks on, on national news, and I think everybody's appalled at it, and, you know, it's up at governmental level now, police investigations.

Do you think that it sort of spells the end for a certain type of reality show? 

Pete Campion: Well, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I've done my fair share of them, right? These things were, are not new. They have been happening, um, I, it's just worth too much to the, to the broadcasters, I think. Right?

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: But, and you see what happened, the love island with some of the young men there, right? And I think, uh, I think. It's just what, what is it worth really? I think, you know, and I think it, it's probably not worth it in my opinion. Right. And I don't think that TV shouldn't take risks and I, and great entertainment should take risks, but [00:34:00] you, you have to be really sure about how you can mitigate and manage those risks.

Yeah. And I think you also just can't leave, you can't leave that up to junior people. I think, you know, the, I think that's, it's just too unfair on them as well, right? Yeah. And you, you almost, I feels to me, what, so how does it, how does it work? Right? Mary's the first side. It's obviously got a really big crew.

You probably need the same size crew on the welfare side, right? 

For, does that work for you? Or where do you cut corners? You know? So I just think it, it feels like it's you would've said this after the love island thing. You say this after marry the first site. Is it time for this to end?

Will it end? I don't think so. I just think, 

Justin Crosby: well, it's the crown jewel, as you said. Yeah. For, for for many broadcast it's the highest rating show. They've lost, uh, toy who are a, a sponsor, the main sponsor now really lucrative deals at a time when those few major shows that these broadcasters have got are so important to them.

It, yeah. It [00:35:00] feels like there's a, a reset is, you know, has got to happen in some way, shape, or, 

Pete Campion: well, I wonder about the business model when you're sort of, you know, you, you are throwing a, a sort of lip piece of dynamite around, right? Yeah. Eventually it's gonna go off. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: And I think that's what you, I think that's the sort of hidden lie within all of those shows is like, you know, you get to the end and if you've made it too unscathed and, you know, we've, we've all experienced that in our TV careers where something's happened and it's not been spoke about or something has gone wrong.

But you get to, in the end, and you in a buy, buy luck and by the seat of your pants. Really? Yeah. So I think that's what they're playing with, with the, but that's the state of the business, right? Yeah. You, that you were take, you're having to take these big risks to to keep the revenue, to keep your business going, to keep the channel afloat.

And that's the thing that sells. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: I would just caution against it for, you know, like not, no saying, and I'm not on my soapbox. I just think like, it's, like we said about the RBL project or any project that digital producers are doing, just take that time to think [00:36:00] ahead. What are the risks? You know, what are the, what the risks are doing physically and emotionally.

And if you're gonna be out, you know what happens tends to happen now is people out on the street just filming people, right? Which again is like, you know, but you see it all the time. People getting into fights and trouble and stuff. Yeah. It's so, you know, it's such a toxic part of our culture that I would just hope that people could think ahead on what the risks are and why they're taking the risks and, in this new world, maybe you just don't have to, right.

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: Maybe you find something else to do. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: Maybe you find, you know, 20 extra minutes of your man washing his boats on the gold mine and shore. Yeah. That's like, you know what I mean? Then the digital audience will reward you 

Justin Crosby: and maybe, yeah, maybe the world might be a better place without shoreline married at first sight.

You didn't say that I said that, but, okay. How about your hero of the week? 

Pete Campion: I don't wanna be a creep, but I think if in for this audience we think it's you, you know, like, because you put on a brilliant award show last week, you know, and like [00:37:00] I spent a long time in tv. I never went to an award show.

We managed to get there in our first year. And not only that, it was such a collegiate atmosphere. It was so much fun. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: And you know, you put so much work into that for everybody to have a really good time and set this brilliant space for all these emerging companies and businesses and channels and stuff, to be able to sort of go, yeah, we are real and we are actually going in the right direction.

So kudos to you, my friend. 

Justin Crosby: Thank you. You 

Pete Campion: so we'll win next year, right? 

Justin Crosby: That's, yeah. Well there you go. Gu guaranteed the award next year. But I know that I'm slightly embarrassed, but thank you for that as very 

Pete Campion: Yeah, no, we appreciate it and I'm sure everybody who's watching is gonna write in the comments as well.

This. Alright. 

Justin Crosby: Thank you. And who or what you're telling to get in the bin? 

Pete Campion: I don't really know. I mean, I, I, it's a hard one, so I've got very little list here, but, you know, I think P Morgan just because I really can't stand it 'cause of Arsenal. No, I mean, I hope Arsenal win the Champion's League, but actually the only part of me that doesn't [00:38:00] want 'em to win it is because of PPP Morgan, but I just, again, it's, it's probably on that same, you know, this sort of click bit nonsense content. Right. We're just finding the loudest, sharpest idiots from around the world. And he's done it to our tabloids. He did it to our tv. He's doing it to YouTube now. Yeah. Like get lost. 

Justin Crosby: Yeah. 

Pete Campion: And the other one is home facial haircare, which I'm terrible at.

And actually I thought I'm going to be filmed today and, uh, I, you know, it's 20 quick to get your beard done in the barbers. Yeah. I'd much rather do it at home, but I'm not very good at 

Justin Crosby: it. I dunno. I think it's all right. We can maybe have a closeup now and see. No, 

Pete Campion: don't get a close. 

Justin Crosby: Uh, Peter, thank you so much for coming on Telecare.

It's been, great to, to chat with you and I, you know, I love what you're doing at Indie Studio. I think it's a, it's a, it is a real case study in, as I hope I'm not repeating myself too much, but in terms of really experienced expert TV execs applying their skills and [00:39:00] knowledge to creating original content on YouTube, which is, you know, going really, really well.

And I can't wait to see where it takes you next. So, uh, thank you so much for coming on today. Oh, 

Pete Campion: thank you for having me. It's been great. Cheers.