Employing Differences, Episode 200: What's happened so far?

"You and I continue to explore this space because we're continually learning. There is no end goal for figuring all of this stuff out. There is just getting even better at exploring that collaborative space that lives between individuals."

Paul & Karen celebrate two hundred podcast episodes by looking at themes in what they've talked about.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Paul: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

[00:00:10] Karen: I'm Karen Gimnig.

[00:00:11] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:00:13] Karen: Each episode, we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, what's happened so far?

[00:00:20] Paul: And by so far, we mean on the two hundred episodes we have done of this podcast together. This episode is coming out in March of 2024. Our first episode came out May 19th, 2020. And we've covered a lot of ground since then. And Karen and I wanted to take the opportunity to sort of look back at what's happened on the show so far? What have we talked about? What have we learned from it? Sort of what have our experiences have been? 

[00:00:50] Paul: Because one of things we say a lot on the show is, well, as we've talked about before. So obviously, we've got some patterns and some things that are coming back up again. So we just kind of wanted to take a look back at that in our time here together today.

[00:01:03] Karen: And we talked a bit before we hit record on this episode, but one of the things, Paul, that you brought up, which was a frame I hadn't thought about but is so true, is that we really, although we start with what are we seeing in our work and what are we seeing in group dynamics and when people are trying to work together, in fact, we end up in kind of two categories of topics, one of which is the interpersonal relationship stuff, what's happening between to particular people or that's a lot of the conflict work tends to be the there's a relationship and what's going on in that relationship. 

[00:01:39] Karen: And the other is we've got a group of people trying to do a thing together, how do we get them coordinated or organized or collaborative so that. the group effort functions cohesively toward a shared goal and various elements of that. But I think it's an interesting frame. And then as we looked at themes, what we found was that all of the themes that we were thinking of applied in both those cases. So in various episodes, we may be focusing on the interpersonal or we may be focusing more on the group space. And either way, a lot of the same skills, topics, focus, things like perspectives and ways to look at them show up in both.

[00:02:21] Paul: Yeah, it was interesting as I was looking back trying to kind of go, you know, what's the unifying theme here? Because, you know, as we've said, like the show, we say at the beginning of every episode, we start with a question, see where it takes us. When we started the show, we just kind of had an interest in exploring some of these spaces together. And we didn't necessarily know what it was going to be. 

[00:02:41] Paul: And if you just look sort of at the high level, it really does look like we're jumping back and forth between what we're talking about interpersonal communication and how we get along with other people and how we work with people who are different than us in some way. And then we jump to, here's how you facilitate a meeting, and here are some ways that you might help groups work better together. And then as you sort of step even further back, you realize, "Yeah, there's those same ideas, same things that we're kind of drawn to, regardless of which frame they're in." That you can see episodes that sort of touch on each of those in both frames.

[00:03:15] Karen: Yeah. One of them, which is in the name of the podcast, is the concept of differences. And I'm actually entertained that we don't talk a lot about reminding ourselves that we're talking about differences. And yet we are in almost every episode. Because if we were all exactly the same, you wouldn't have to do all this hard stuff, right? We'd agree all the time. We would see everything the same all the time. We would have the same perspectives. We would come in with the same knowledge. It wouldn't be very interesting. I don't even think it would be very effective, but it would be easier.

[00:03:48] Karen: The challenges, whether we're talking about interpersonal or group dynamics, the challenges when you put two or more people together is that they are different. And it's how do we work through those differences? So, you know, if, if I like to get right to the point and Paul wants to have a longer conversation around the other way, nothing wrong with either of them, but we're going to have to work through the difference. And so it is those differences And what do we do with them that we keep coming back to over and over again?

[00:04:18] Paul: Something that we don't talk about explicitly as much, but that is always sort of in the back of my head around that, again, is this the other word in the title of the show, which is employing, right? How do we take advantage of the fact that those are there? Oftentimes, when we talk about conflict and people are thinking, well, yeah, this would be way easier if everyone just agreed with me.

[00:04:41] Paul: What you lose when you lose those differences and you gloss over it is the variety, is the greater range, you know, the reason why we collaborate. You and I started doing this show together because we knew we had enough interests in common that we had some basis for collaboration. But we come from very different spaces. We work in different spaces. We work with different clients. And it's in that difference that we actually learn stuff from each other, that we're able to expand to a broader range. I don't think we name that quite as much on the show as I think it. So I want to make that a little explicit here, that we really are about going. 

[00:05:18] Paul: The reason why we want to bring those differences together is because they can be really useful and productive. How do we harness that? How do we not be so distracted by conflict and by difference and things like that, that we lose the good stuff? And that's definitely a theme, again, but in both the interpersonal and the group work.

[00:05:38] Karen: And I love that you're calling it out because I think you're right. We don't say it enough. And, and you and I live so much in the space of, you know, we have a disagreement. And I think of when Yana Ludwig and I were writing a book together and we mostly agreed on a lot of things as you and I do, but periodically something would come up that we just had different perspectives and she would say, "Oh, good, get that excitement and enthusiasm.

[00:06:00] Karen: And it's really something that I also try to aspire to of letting go of that part of me that says difference, scary difference, defend, you know, like, that kind of reaction, which is so common in our society, calling out the difference and as a problem, the difference as problem. And I think what we're trying to lean into here is difference as an asset difference as a positive thing. And, and I think you're right, we, it would behoove us to say it more.

[00:06:32] Paul: Probably true. One place that we've talked about where there is a problem with difference is when there's a difference between intention and impact. That's definitely a theme that shows up a lot here. I intend for this thing to happen, but my actual impact on you is this other thing. that I may not even realize. That is something that we've explored a lot. And then I think we come back to a lot, just realizing that those two things are often very disconnected. And often when we're in a challenging space, it's because the impact we're hoping to have isn't the one we're actually having, and probably the impact the other person is hoping to have, or the other group of people is hoping to have, isn't the one they're hoping to have.

[00:07:14] Karen: Yeah. And we tend to assume that they're the same. My intention, I intended to say something kind and respectful. How could it possibly have landed with you and had an impact of being disrespectful or aggressive or something? And on the other hand, on the receiving end, you said a thing that was hurtful to me. That was the impact. And it is the impact. How could it possibly not have been your intention? But as you point out, they are absolutely very often not the same. And it's and it's the it's the it's not that the difference is the problem. It's that the assumption that they are the same is the problem.

[00:07:53] Karen: And if we can let go of that assumption and I'll bring up another word here that comes up a lot, which is if we can get curious about the differences and that bringing in of curiosity is so often a part of the solution to whatever problem we're facing.

[00:08:09] Paul: And at the same time, I think we try to make clear that being curious about what's happening doesn't mean that you have to lose yourself in the group, in the relationship, right? You are still a person, you are still, you are differentiated from the other person, right? You're not solely subsumed into the organization or in the group. We've talked about this before where, you know, sometimes people say, well, you know, it'd be better for the group if, and in fact, that's really a like, I would really like it if, but I don't want to say it that way. 

[00:08:41] Paul: So there is a degree to which we want to be curious. Absolutely. We want to find out. We want to approach it with a sense that we know that our view of the situation is different than the other person's. Our experience of it is different like that. And and then to to realize that our view is also just as valid as theirs is. Our our opinions are also valid. They may not be as informed in certain areas, but that we don't have to lose ourselves when we get curious.

[00:09:13] Karen: So I think that's a pretty good cover of how that intention and impact piece lands in the interpersonal space. When it's coming into the group workspace, we often use different words, but it's very similar to getting clear about objectives being really important that we so often when groups are not working well, it's because they're trying to do a thing, but they haven't shared with each other what their goals are, what their objective is. So, you know, I think we should do it this way and I think we should do it that and you, and you think we should do it that way. So we've got these two different. viewpoints of how to do it. And they're both right because they're trying to land in different places.

[00:09:51] Karen: We haven't gotten clear about our shared objective and therefore our shared impact isn't going to be the same either. Like we aren't going to have that going for us. So that piece about, and all kinds of stages from meeting planning to business strategic planning to, you know, any number of things, Before we ask, what do we want to do or how do we want to do it? The first question is, where do we want to get to? What do we want to be different after we have this meeting or make the strategic plan or take the steps for the next six months or whatever it is? What do we want to be different after that than is now? And asking that question comes up over and over again.

[00:10:33] Paul: It's one of the sort of paradoxes that it's actually really important to have clear intent, but also recognizing that intent is not the only thing that matters, right? That we then – like if we don't know what we're trying to do, and that happens on the individual and the interpersonal level as well. It's like, wait a minute, why am I even trying to give you this feedback? Why are we having this conversation? What am I trying to accomplish here? When I'm not clear on that, it's likely that something that I don't actually want will happen. But even when I am clear on it, I still can't assume that that's enough to make it happen. And so there's a lot of different pieces in there around that. We want to be clear about our intention, but we also really want to be curious about what our actual impact is.

[00:11:20] Karen: Another theme that I think has come up throughout our work, and we did a whole series on it not that long ago, is on power and how power plays out and in a group or between people. And this is where we would talk about hierarchy, boss and report kind of relationships, authority and where it lives, delegation of authority, and egalitarianism. And where do we want peer relationships? Where do we want equal voices? Where do we want one person to have more authority than another? And that we are not proposing that any of those is better or worse, but they come with different challenges and different advantages. 

 And so where I think you get into trouble is if you're not clear about that so if you've got a boss who doesn't ever want to take authority. now you've got a mismatch, right? You've got a defined authority role that isn't being utilized. And the people that are supposed to be reporting are kind of looking for that direction and not getting it. 

[00:12:21] Karen: Or if you have a group, as many other groups that I work with are that wants to be fully egalitarian, but you've got social dynamics that really mean that there are power differentials. And if you don't notice them, don't name them and don't talk about what those power differentials are. The likelihood is that what you are intending those power dynamics to be is different than what is. And that gets really problematic in relationships. People get feelings hurt, people get confused, people get despondent, or they just are sort of looking for direction they're not going to get, or feeling micromanaged, like all that stuff. And you can avoid a lot of that by checking in on what is the power relationship? Is it the one? Is it the one we want? Is it working for us?

[00:13:11] Karen: And being clear about even in a fully egalitarian group, we can say this person has authority. We can delegate authority for this particular thing, and they don't have to come back to all of us for it. The egalitarian part is we all agreed to give them that authority. It's not that they don't ever use it. And, you know, and then, of course, in the corporate world where typically you're hired into a role that has whatever amount of authority it has. But, but if you can be clear about that, then people come into it knowing what to expect. You've got clear contracting and you can work with it pretty well. But where it's messy, feelings get hurt all over the place.

[00:13:47] Paul: Yeah, it is one of those things that impacts that space between, that we often don't talk about. When we don't talk about it, when we don't acknowledge it, when we pretend like it's different than it is, that gets really messy and that can be a real problem. And so again, that's one of those things we come back to with that idea of being clear a lot. One of the things that I've really enjoyed in the process of doing this show has been that we bring our different perspectives and our things together and we explore situations that we're dealing with. 

[00:14:20] Paul: You'll hear us say on the show a lot, you know, I've had a client who, or I was working in an organization where, or things like that. And it's because for a lot of the things that we're talking about in the show, these are real live things for us. If I look back four years ago, my understanding of some of these topics was far less nuanced than it is now. And that's a result of our exploring these things together. And that's been really, really wonderful for me. That's what I hoped would happen as we started doing the show. So we kind of wanted to spend a little bit of time here just thinking about what are the things that we've learned from doing the show, either materially or just our experience of doing it together, about doing the show.

[00:15:04] Karen: Yeah, I agree. One of the big things that comes up is how nuanced this stuff is and how often, usually pre-show, as you and I are just checking in with each other and getting ready to hit record, But how often one of us says something that just feels true and the other one says, well, yes, but also there's this other way of looking at it or, you know, in the circumstance we were talking about. But if you use those same words about this other circumstance, they don't hold there. And that the extent to which there's not a I can't write a rule book that tells people how to do this stuff. It is a way of thinking. It is a value set as a skill set. because it is all so incredibly nuanced.

[00:15:50] Paul:  I think one of the things that I've really appreciated, and I think that we do, again, I don't think we've really pointed to this a whole lot, is when we have a disagreement about what our topic is going to be or what is our point of view on a particular thing, we take a very additive, you know, sort of yes, Andy approach to it so that even when I go, you know, my experience is a little different. Neither of the other person doesn't take that as a like saying that you're wrong. Right. It's a like, "Oh, interesting. I have my experience with that has been different in this way." How can we how can we put those together that we really do try to go, That thing you've experienced is true. This thing I have experienced is true. How do we how do we employ that difference? How do we put those things together to get something newer out of it? And there's just something about the way that we approach it that that happens.

[00: 16:44] Karen: It is a thing to work with people who also work in this space and have the skill set. And I think what I want to say to our audience about this is, on the days that you wonder, is it really worth it? We're listening to that podcast again, or we're reading that book, or we're in that workshop, or we're spending our time with our consultants again, is it worth it? And I just want to say, if you've never experienced a really smooth, safe, what Paul was just describing, if you don't have that yet, it's worth it. When you get there, it is this magical thing. And it's not an on off. I mean, it is a gradual thing that that happens over time, and everybody involved contributes to it.

[00:17:27] Karen: One of the ways that shows up for me in our work together, and this is a thing that our audience wouldn't see, because it's all very behind the scenes, but it has to do with fairness. And our engagement with this, and partly it's how it's evolved, I think it was fairer when we started, but we've reworked some of the background work around things. And it's not fair at all, because Paul does almost all the background stuff. And I mostly just get to show up and do the chatting part, which I love. And I think I hope I have checked in Paul with you enough to make sure that you're comfortable with it. 

[00:18:08] Karen: It's It is a growth edge for me to be comfortable with Paul, Paul spends the money that's involved in making it happen and has taken on more of it and, and I it's, I love it. It's so sweet for me, I get to do exactly what I love to do, and he keeps showing up every week and doing it with me and taking on more of the work like it's this amazing thing. And, and to recognize that we have checked with each other about it. We have talked about it. I'm not just assuming that a free ride is fine, but we have and it can be okay. It can be okay for me to get more out of this that I feel like is my share that, that's okay.

[00:18:38] Paul: One of my big learnings from doing the show together that's connected to that is how much I now pay attention to where I'm starting to resent things. Resentment as a barometer is a really useful thing for me. Because that tells me that I do or don't need to renegotiate about how things are going on. And so to be clear, there is no resentment about the arrangement we have for doing the show right now. I also love that, by and large, I've been able to structure things so that I get to show up and just talk with you about things. We went through a period of time when we were both doing a lot more work, manually on this and spending a lot more time on it. And it wasn't the fun stuff.

[00:19:19] Paul: But for me, we get to show up and tap into each other's experience and open up each other's heads. That's the really, really fun part. And I get to do mostly that. But that idea of like one of my themes over the last couple of years has been noticing where am I starting to feel a little resentful about some either interpersonal or group or things like that. That's an indicator for me that I have some boundary that's being crossed that I probably haven't articulated. I have something that I need to say, like it's a cue to me that, oops, like I've gotten myself into the state, now what am I going to do about it? And that's something that I didn't start the show with. So that's definitely been something I've learned from a lot of the things that we've talked about, because that's also a theme that's shown up in some episodes.

[00:20:04] Karen: I think another one for me and it's again one of those differences, I tend to work mostly with clients who hold a really high value for the egalitarian everybody's equal kind of space and and Paul and and also my, my husband who I met and married during this last four years that we've been doing this. So that's new for me too. But both work very, very much in the corporate space where most often there is a clear and defined hierarchy and the whole system depends on it. And so talking about the same things that the same interpersonal stuff happens, the same work dynamics happen, like it's the same values, the same skillset, and it's showing up within hierarchy and And within a value that says having hierarchy makes things more efficient and has value in various other ways, that it's still the same interpersonal stuff. And it's just fascinating to me to see it applied with that value difference, which is significant.

[00:21:02] Paul: I think that's been a growing and learning edge for me too is recognizing the sort of continuum, right, that we operate on where it's the idea of, you know, there's never going to be a situation where there's no power differential, right? They can also be really rigid and really structured and things like that and just recognizing that it's not one or the other. It's where along the spectrum is this particular situation. 

[00:21:29] Paul: And the idea is, is that serving us? So when we talk about views of these things getting more nuanced, I've really started to see more and more opportunities to pull in the sorts of skills that you've helped me to understand that you're using in those very non-hierarchical spaces, but to be able to do those in a situation where there is more of a power dynamic, when there is a hierarchy there, because they're usefully addressing the issue at hand, that it doesn't get in the way that there is that differential there. So it's more of the blending along that spectrum that I've really been able to see more and more as we've done this show.

[00:22:09] Karen:  So I feel like we could probably go on for ages. We've got ninety-nine episodes worth of stuff. But I think what we're really saying is that although we continue to hang out in the space of interpersonal relationships and how groups work together and how humans are different from each other and how those differences can be useful and best utilized and employed in the situations. We also come back to the same themes. And even within those themes, there is nuance upon nuance. And the good news for me about this is that although we're naming this as our 200th episode, and boy, that's a lot of talking about these things, I don't think we're running out. I think we can do more.

[00:22:47] Paul: It is fun. One of the roles that I have in the show is kind of remembering what we've done when we're figuring out what we're going to talk about. It's always like, "Oh, is this too close to something that we've talked about before?" And my trick memory is such that generally that's my job. And every time I come up with something, it's like, well, we've talked about something next door to that. 

[00:23:07] Paul: How can we take just a slightly different angle on it so that it becomes a different episode? And as a result, I don't think we're ever going to run out of topics to get into because it is such a rich space that we play in. You know, you and I continue to explore this space because we're continually learning, right? There is no there's no end goal for figuring all of this stuff out. There is just the let's get even better at exploring that collaborative space that lives between individuals.

[00:23:35] Karen: I think that's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Karen Gimnig.

[00:23:39] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis, and this has been Employing Differences.