"I don't get to decide that for the group. I set prompts that might be deeper or shallower. I set structures that facilitate depth. Some of them foster depth, and some of them don't as much. So I do make choices about how deep we're going to go. But at the end of the day, I actually only am making a decision about how deep I'm inviting people to go."
Paul & Karen discuss ways to help people do the internal work required to create change within a group.
"I don't get to decide that for the group. I set prompts that might be deeper or shallower. I set structures that facilitate depth. Some of them foster depth, and some of them don't as much. So I do make choices about how deep we're going to go. But at the end of the day, I actually only am making a decision about how deep I'm inviting people to go."
Paul & Karen discuss ways to help people do the internal work required to create change within a group.
[00:00:00] Paul: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.
[00:00:09] Karen: I'm Karen Gimnig.
[00:00:12] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis.
[00:00:13] Karen: Each episode we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is, how deep do we go?
[00:00:21] Paul: So this is always a question for Karen and I when we're working with a group and when working with individuals too. But you know, one of the things that we're brought in to do, the things that we do with groups is we help shift behavior, right? We help the group operate in a different way than it has been before to get results that it wasn't able to get, right? That we're able to have these meetings in ways that aren't frustrating for everybody, that we're able to make decisions about how we're going to do these sorts of things. Like those are external behavioral sorts of changes that lead to external results.
[0000:55] Paul: And the thing that both Karen and I know is that when we're working with a group to make changes to their external behavior, there's something inside of people that's almost always going to have to shift in order for those changes to happen. That, the reason why we're stuck in those patterns of behavior is because something inside of people's heads, people's experiences that they've had in the past, patterns that they're not necessarily even conscious of, like there's inner work that has to happen almost always in the work that we do with groups.
[00:01:27] Paul: And at the same time, there can be some delicate questions about how we explore that inner world, how we encourage those inner shifts to take place to get the external behaviors to shift in a useful way. And so Karen and I want to talk a little bit today about ways that we dance along that line, right? And the dangers that we can run into if we go too deep, right? If we're asking people to go deeper than is really appropriate and then appropriates a loaded term then is useful, like, how do we decide, where do we stay in terms of that internal and external divide, so that we can have the best chance of actually helping individuals and groups change in the way that they say they want?
[00:02:12] Karen: Yeah. And I think in that, how deep do we go question, one thing is I don't get to decide that for the group. And in some ways I do. I set prompts that might be deeper or shallower. I set structures that facilitate depth and you know, and there are certain facilitation methods. We did a series on facilitation. So some of these you could find, but some of them foster depth and some of them don't as much. So I do make choices about how deep we're going to go. But at the end of the day, I actually only am making a decision about how deep I'm inviting people to go. I don't, I don't ever ask the question that has to have the answer of this is my deep childhood secret that I'm coming up with. I do ask questions to which that might be the answer, but that there are other answers.
[00:03:05] Karen: And so that agency piece I think is hugely important that no matter how much I might think or imagine that I know where this person is or what they're ready for or what would solve their problem, doesn't matter what I think. It only matters what they're ready for. And so my role in this how much depth thing, it is about how much depth do I invite. It is never about how much depth do I create or force or demand or expect or ask for. I don't do any of those things. It's always invitational and there's always a graceful and even unnoticeable option to be less deep than the depth that I'm offering.
[00:03:44] Paul: Yeah my answer is pretty much the same, it's about the invitation and giving people that agency to go as deep. And they might by themselves in their self-reflection go fairly deep. But in terms of their self-disclosure, what they tell me or what they tell the group, that might be much less shallow, right? I'm never gonna ask the question, you know, what is your deep childhood trauma and why does that cause you to act this way at work? Right? As much as I might be thinking that, that's never gonna come out of my mouth.
[00:04:18] Paul: Because as we talked about actually in our last episode, when we were talking about the question of safety, right? Giving people the ability to choose to assess, like what's the degree of self-disclosure that I think is useful and is safe here is a really important part of that. So yeah, I'm gonna point at, I'm gonna have a theory that I'm gonna hold lightly that there's some inner work that's gonna need to happen here, but I'm never gonna make anybody do it.
[00:04:46] Paul: And I'm never going to make anybody do it in front of a group either. And I think that's the place where we can, where we can go very badly wrong in, in doing this.
[00:04:56] Karen: Yep. And, and I think so the flip side of that. So I wanted to start with, we don't force it ever, but the flip side of it is that very often we're working with groups that they want smoother communication, they want less conflict, they want a stronger sense of collaboration, they want creativity to flourish, they want a sense of connection to each other, maybe. That one depends on which group you're in, but maybe they know they want a sense of connection with each other.
[00:05:22] Karen: And what they don't realize is that their emotional lives contribute to all of those other things. And so there's this sense, especially in workplaces, but in any group that this isn't a therapy group, this isn't my best friends group. This isn't, you know, getting drunk on a Friday night. This is work and we don't bring our emotions to work and we don't bring our personal lives to work because this is professional and there's this professionalism veil.
[00:05:49] Karen: And I'm going to challenge that assumption because your whole person does come to work. And if it doesn't, you're not going to connect well, you're not going to communicate well, you're not going to be creative or collaborate well. Those things can't happen if your whole self isn't there. If you're filtering and guarding and defending major parts of you, then you're not as available. And you don't feel as safe to anybody else, so then they become less available to you. So the assumption that we don't do personal at work is itself dangerous, and we don't do personal at work the same way we do in a therapy group.
[00:06:27] Karen: And so how do we navigate those boundaries? And I think it's a lot about figuring out what is relevant to the workplace and how do we manage that? And it is each person's choice. We don't wanna be in an environment where anyone's expected to share, but I also think we don't wanna be in an environment where anyone's discouraged from sharing the thing that's relevant, because there are offices where people will hug each other and feel safe about that. And if someone doesn't, and they're willing to say, I had a bad experience with touch when I was a kid, and I really don't like to be touched ever more than a handshake.
[00:07:09] Karen: People can connect with that and get that. Now, do we need to know that it was your uncle Sam and it was sexual abuse and it went on for five years? Probably not. Like there are levels, but being willing to say, I have this background thing that makes my experience different from yours. And this is the thing why I'm asking for a different behavior than what you like and are comfortable with.
[00:07:32] Karen: And the impact on me is different than what you might have expected if you didn't know this about me. That can be hugely valuable. And even that only happens if it is a safe space to share that. If there is an expectation that, if the person sharing it expects that it will be held in an appropriate level of confidence, that it will be honored, that it will be valued, that they will not be judged or put down by it, and that nobody's gonna attach a bunch of you know, okay, so you said you don't like to be touched.
[00:07:48] Karen: And that also means you're on feeling, and that also means you can't do creative work. And that also means you're not a good team member. And now it shows up on your annual review. If they think any of that's gonna happen, they're not gonna share. But that if that space can be, it's okay. We are in a place where we talk about the things that are here. So we don't have to go bringing in a whole bunch of stuff that doesn't relate to the work. But if how much we touch becomes a thing in the office, then the thing that informs how I interact with that is already there, and I think it's important that it's safe to name it.
[00:08:36] Paul: Yeah, the what is here thing, I think is actually the useful guidance in terms of like, where do you, where would you invite people to go deeper? You're actually inviting them to think about what is actually present that you might not be aware of, like you individually might not know that this deep pattern is showing up for you that this feeling, right, that you've been, because why would we talk about feelings in the workplace?
[00:09:02] Paul: Well, because it turns out we have feelings in the workplace, just because we don't talk about them, we don't have them, right? And so the stuff that's in scope, right, the stuff that's relevant is what is here and what is present but maybe not being talked about, maybe not even on the edge of your awareness. And that's where the invitation to get deeper can be useful.
[00:09:25] Paul: And again, it's an invitation, right? We're never gonna force anybody to go and then disclose and things like that. But so I will often, you know, a question that sometimes shows up in work that I do is, you know, this difficult situation where you're having this challenge with this other person, like, does that remind you of any other interactions that you've had, right? And then maybe, oh yeah, they totally remind me of this boss that I had 10 years ago and they're doing this thing. It's like, oh. That might be, you know, you know, and maybe they, oh, they remind me of my father who was overbearing and blah, blah, blah.Like if that comes up, right, and people want to say that, I'm gonna hold that, right, I'm gonna respect that. I'm not gonna go, tell me more about your dad, right?
[00:10:08] Paul: But I am gonna say, oh, interesting. You might consider how you're reacting in this situation and if that has any parallels to these other situations you've had in the past. And sometimes that's enough for people to just go, oh, you're right, I'm not actually reacting to this person. I'm reacting to this boss that I had ten years ago. And they start to see that and they start to notice that. So the invitation is just, does this remind you of anything else that's similar? But that's asking about something that's present, something that's here now that you don't realize.
[00:10:40] Paul: And then the person gets to decide what's the level of depth they're gonna go into with that. And I'm gonna try and hold a respectful boundary about that and not pry and dig and things like that. But it is but the reason I'm asking about it is because it's relevant, because it's showing up in the current situation. I'm not digging into these things just because I want to know about what's going on with this person in some deep, weird way and assemble a full picture. I'm trying to uncover things that are going to help them, that are going to help the group to shift in the situation that they're in now. And so it's in service of this external goal that they've asked me to help them with.
[00:11:23] Karen: Yeah and I think another way I look at that, how deep do we go? How much change do you want? And if you want changes in behavior, changes in patterns, changes in communication, all that stuff that we talk about, my first sort of glib answer is probably deeper than you're used to.
[00:11:40] Paul: Yes.
[00:11:14] Karen: But not tossed into the deep end of the pool against your will, right? This isn't we throw you in the deep end and hope you'll swim. This is we invite you a little further down the line. Yeah. We go from three feet to four feet, maybe. We just kind of make our way. And then see where the group wants to go. Like just follow that along. So yeah, I think all of those things come into play. Like reach for a little more depth than you're comfortable with, but also don't force yourself into space that feels unsafe.
[00:12:06] Paul: And for me, the sign that it's working, right? That it's useful. It's like the reason why you need to go a little deeper than you've been so far, because everything you've been doing so far is keeping all your current existing behaviors and patterns in place. So the way I know that it's working is when groups start to talk about things they haven't talked about before that are relevant to what's going on, or they're talking about the things that they've always talked about in different ways than they've talked about before. Because to use the word that we always use here, that's a sign that they're getting a bit more vulnerable, that they're talking about things that didn't seem as safe before.
[00:12:46] Paul: They're going deeper because that's the thing about depth is, is the deeper you go, the more vulnerable it is. And so when they actually are starting to shift what they're talking about and shifting the ways that they're talking about it, that's a sign that they're starting to go deeper in a useful way that they're, they're now uncovering. Oh, the reason we've always been at loggerheads around these two issues was we were never talking about what was meaningful that was under them, like why people cared so deeply about them.
[00:12:18] Paul: The feelings that were hurt when this thing happened in the past, the resentment that's being held. We've never talked about any of that publicly and now we're starting to? That's a sign that that increased depth is actually useful to starting to create change.
[00:13:34] Karen: So just to track where we've been, how deep do we go is a question that comes up a lot because people often start with the assumption that in workplaces particularly or other public places, we don't go deep. We don't talk about emotions. We don't bring in our personal life. And we think, Paul and I, that if that is the plan and you stay that way, you will continue to get the same behaviors and results that you've gotten.
[00:14:00] Karen: And if you wanna shift behavior, you do need to be willing to consider more depth. Now, that does not mean that you demand it of one another, but it does mean that you create spaces and environments and structures. and possibly bring in somebody outside like Paul or I, who knows how to do this, to create an invitation for depth, to create an opportunity for depth. And maybe the structure gives a little more safety for that depth to happen. And you're not trying to go deep about everybody's deep dark secrets. It is invitational, it's not demanded.
[00:14:35] Karen: Each person has the agency to choose how deep they wanna go. And we're after the things that are already present in the room. we're looking for the past experiences or the emotional experiences, the emotional reactivity that relates to the thing that we're already seeing or the thing that we would want to change. And that probably means we're gonna go deeper than we're used to. It's gonna be more vulnerable than we're used to. And oddly in that vulnerability, we'll start to feel more safe with each other than we are used to. And that is where the behavior changes can start to happen.
[00:15:01] Karen: And we know that it's happened when we're having different conversations than we've had before. Either we're talking about things that we haven't talked about, or we're talking about things in new ways that are more useful. And that's what will lead to the changes that you presumably started out looking for.
[00:15:27] Paul: Well, that's going to do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.
[00:15:31] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig and this has been Employing Differences.