Employing Differences, Episode 217: How can I repair trust?

"We shouldn't expect that things will always go perfectly, that we will never fail to deliver on our obligations. The need to repair trust isn't a sign that this is a broken, dysfunctional relationship. It's normal, it's just unfortunate."

Karen & Paul discuss rebuilding trust when we didn't do something we were supposed to.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Karen: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals. 

[00:00:10] Paul: I'm Paul Tevis. 

[00:00:00] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig. 

[00:00:13] Paul: Each episode we start with a question and see where it takes us. 

This week's question is, how can I repair trust?

[00:00:27] Karen: And it may be that someone in my company that I supervised screwed up. It may be that I made a mistake. It may be that I knowingly did something that was the best choice somehow, but really not for someone else and they got hurt by it. It could be that it was just absolutely an error. I just didn't notice. It could be that some decision that I made had an unforeseen consequence that turned out to be bad for somebody. Like there's a lot of ways you get here, but I have hurt someone else and in particular, I've hurt someone else in a way that damaged trust. 

[00:01:03] Karen: So they trusted me, I had all of the, you know, assumption of good intent stuff going, we had some kind of relationship and I didn't do something I was supposed to do or I did do something I wasn't supposed to do or whatever and I know I screwed up. And I have an ongoing relationship, business or otherwise, with this person or these people or whatever. And I want to have an ongoing trusting relationship, but how do I get back to that? Like what are the steps to repair that trust so that we can have the good, strong, functional relationship that we had before? Because when you don't have trust, all sorts of things go sideways. And so you want the ease of, if I say I'm gonna do a thing, they believe I'm gonna do it and they aren't. You know, there's the trust and verify thing, which is fine. But if you don't have the trust, the verify gets really big in that scenario. And we don't want to be there. We want to be in the place where there is some trust and we can have the efficiencies that come with trust. And when that's broken, how do we get it back?

[00:02:10] Paul: We talked back in episode 196 about the idea of repair as something that is a normal part of working relationships of, of that we should expect that things like this do happen. We shouldn't expect that things will always go perfectly, that we will never fail to deliver on our obligations, that we will, you know, we should expect that, we're gonna need to do this. And yet so often we don't. And so I wanna first start out by just saying, like, this is normal. Like the need to repair trust is something that isn't a sign that this is a broken, dysfunctional relationship. It's normal, it's unfortunate.

[00:02:49] Paul: And so I think one of the first things that's really useful for us to do when we're wanting to to repair that trust is to in some ways, cut ourselves some slack, right? To not go, oh, I'm a terrible person because of this thing that happened. You know, in in theory and one of the things we talked about in in one ninety six is the idea that like there's some repair that needs to happen with regards to the initial harm. Right. Whatever it was that occurred, like I need to make that right. And we need to have a conversation about, about what that is, but recognizing that often the lingering effect of that is this distrust that shows up. So this is more like the long-term, in some cases, scarring that happens after this sort of harm is done. 

[00:03:32] Paul: And so what we're talking about is how do we help that to heal? How do we help work through that? And you're right that if we are working together, we and I'm relying on you to do something and I no longer trust you to do it, that creates a lot more work on my part because I think we overlook how much we, when we trust someone, we don't have to communicate about things. I had a teacher once who said, trust is a substitute for communication. And we start to notice that when we don't trust somebody as much, we, we start to demand more of that. We start to need more of it. We start to expect more of it. And so I think that is one of the first places to think about is how does our pattern of communication actually need to change as a result of the fact that we don't have the same level of trust that we used to.

[00:04:26] Karen: And I think it actually starts in that territory you were saying that we covered some in that earlier episode, but I think it's worth re-saying here that how we come out of, how we communicate about the error. It's one thing to say I made a mistake. It's a different thing to say, and I'm going to bear the cost of that mistake in whatever way that I can. And I think timing matters.

[00:04:50] Karen: Meaning from the point at which the other person is aware of that there has been harm, that clock is running on their emotional reactivity to that. And when they become aware of the harm, as quickly as possible, they need to feel like I'm gonna do something about it. I'm gonna take care of it. I'm going to take responsibility for it, not just in words, but in actions and in business relationships, often in dollars. That I'm gonna do something to actually repair the harm, which is step one of repairing the trust. Because a lot of the trust in this kind of relationship is, I'm gonna be and often when these things come up, there's been some kind of delay or there's been some kind of miscommunication already. 

[00:05:46] Karen: And so to say, yeah, we're taking care of that. We'll get back to you. We'll do something about it. We're working on it. That isn't gonna cut it because you already said like the trust is broken. And so even from that very first like name that I did it, which I think we covered in that last episode, but also what am I gonna do about it?

[00:06:05]  Karen: And I may not have a number to put to it, but I'm going to go figure out what that changed about the budget, or I'm going to figure out what that did in terms of timing, or I'm going to figure out why it happened. And do we need to make a staffing change? Do we, like, you got to be willing to do some stuff that hurts to make it right. And I mean, if you can make it right without hurting yourself, great, but probably not. Probably there is some accepting some pain.

[00:06:32] Karen: So, and really this is about shifting the pain of my mistake off of the person that landed on through no fault of their own back onto me. And so that is a step and it's not a step you can do later. You got to really get that done and clean as fast as you can. 

[00:06:50] Paul: And I think one of the things that can get in the way of us doing that is when we get emotionally worked up about this, right? that it's the, oh, I'm so sorry that I did this thing. I was like, I'm a terrible person. We can fall into that shame spiral. And one of the things that that's actually doing is it's centering us rather than the person we've done harm to. But two, it's getting in the way of us actually then taking action to do something about this. So when I say like.

[00:07:17] Paul: We need to recognize that this is normal, that this happens in relationships when we work together, that we're going to disappoint somebody. We need to be able to have the emotional fortitude to sort of say, Okay, that happened. I really wish that it didn't. Now what am I going to do about it? Because the quicker that we can indicate that we are taking seriously what we have done, what the consequences have been, and that we're doing everything we can to help to start that process of repair, that is a thing that that's a way of approaching it that rebuilds trust because it indicates to the other person that we get it. 

[00:07:51] Paul: We know that we need to do something about it and we're starting to do it. And so I absolutely agree with you that I think getting to that point quickly and obviously not glossing over like the emotional impact that it may have had on them, but not falling into that shame spiral and hoping that they'll tell us, oh, it's okay, it's not that big a deal, right? Don't do that. That is a thing that can really damage trust, but taking it seriously and approaching it in a relatively even keeled way, I think can really help.

[00:08:20] Paul: And then going back to this idea of like, how do we need to shift our patterns of communication? I think we need to be communicating more about what we are doing than what we did in the past. Because you're, the thing you said around, we can't just say like, well, you know, I, I'm, we're gonna figure it out and then we go radio silence for two weeks. That might've been fine when they trusted us, but the whole point is they don't. 

[00:04:45] Paul: And what I've noticed, you know, when I've been in this situation where someone has, has done something that I would have rather they didn't and they're, they're going to try to make amends and try and make it better, the longer I don't hear from them, the more that I make up about how this isn't going to go the way I want it to. And so I actually need to hear from them more frequently. Even if that's, you know, what, what they're coming back to me isn't we've got the answer. Here's what we're going to do, right? 

[00:09:10] Paul: Just hearing we're working on it specifically. Here's what we're working on. Here's what we're doing. I'm finding out more about this. I'm getting that. I've talked to this person and waiting to hear back from like that kind of status update stuff wasn't necessary before, but is tremendously reassuring now. 

[00:09:27] Karen: Yeah, and I think absolutely what you said, I like that trust is a substitute for communication. So when we don't have trust, we need more communication, which is what you're saying. And I wanna give another frame to why that's important, which is one theory I've heard, I think it was a therapist who said this to me in the context of marriage counseling, but that if you need to rebuild trust, what you gotta do is you have to tell them what you're gonna do and then you have to do it. 

[00:09:52] Karen: And so you, you got into this problem because you told them you were going to do something and then you didn't do it. Or they expected you to do something and then you didn't do it or did something different or whatever. But what they were expecting to happen is different than what did happen. And what you need is to set an expectation and then fulfill that expectation, because that's the counter experience for them. That's the thing that overwrites the they said something and then they didn't do it. You need as many opportunities as you can to say you're going to do a thing and then do it.

[00:10:22] Karen: So I'm going to do some research on this thing. I did the research on this thing. Now I'm going to set up a meeting with somebody and that meeting is set for this time. And now we have the meeting. And now the next thing I'm gonna do is, so that it seems like, you know, lots and lots of very nitpicky, micromanaging kind of communication. But in fact, that's what they need because they don't know that I'm doing it. And it has that added benefit of, it gives me lots of repetition on, I said I was gonna do a thing and I did the thing. 

[00:10:53] Karen: And so I think that follow through and that sense of follow through is super important. And it's overlooked because in the regular way that we do business, we would never send those emails or make those phone calls. But especially in the land of email and in most relational things, I'm not a fan of email but this is one that I think, email or Slack or however you communicate asynchronously is great for this. It takes two minutes to shoot off an email to say I've got this meeting scheduled or whatever the next step is. 

[00:11:19] Karen: And then the next thing will be. Right. Or, you know, I'll write to you after that meeting to let you know what the next step is from there or whatever. So this is what we did. And here's the next expectation. And ideally you're doing that every couple of days. I mean, it depends on the situation. And if you couldn't get the next meeting, that was the piece until a week from now, then maybe it sits for a week because everybody knows the next meeting is a week from now. And then we're going to hear from you, but that repetition for the same reason that it just seems like a lot. It's the same reason that it works.

[00:11:49] Paul: Yeah, that repeated opportunity to make a promise, keep a promise is essential to rebuilding that, right? Because that is general. I mean, trust is a multivariate thing. Like, when people say trust, they don't always mean the same thing by it. But a lot of times what people really mean by it is dependability, right? I can count on you to do the thing you said you were going to do. And in particular, in this case, like that, that's been damaged. 

[00:12:13] Paul: And so, yeah, just continuing to give the other person the experience of you doing what you said you were gonna do is incredibly useful to rebuilding that and to repairing that. And so, and over-communicating, right, that way, like recognizing you're gonna need to do it. It is useful to do it far more frequently than you had been. And I, because I think that's, because I think the trap that we fall into is thinking, well, I've apologized, I've done the repair, you know, I've made, I've fixed whatever harm that was, you know, that we agreed on, and now we can just go back to the way things were. 

[00:12:46] Paul: And you can't right away like this is the lingering effect in the long term, right? And ideally you do that. You talked about micromanaging, right? And it's like, if I'm the person who's doing the over-communicating, the more I do that proactively without the other person requesting it, the more valuable it is, right? Cause now I'm demonstrating that I'm doing this because I think it's useful to them. 

[00:13:08] Paul: You know, at the point where the other person says, actually, I don't need that anymore. That's the point where you know you've, you've done it right, right? You can start to ease back, right? But then you can say, great, so what might be appropriate? But I do like to let the other person tell me, you know what, I don't need all of these updates anymore. Like, you know, just once a week would be fine. Oh, okay, great. Because it is really reestablishing what is the cadence that they're now comfortable with based on where we are now. 

[00:13:39] Paul: And the other thing I'll say is that, and I said this back in 196, when we talked about repair,getting good at repair strengthens the relationship because it allows you to, when something like this happens, which it will, in any long-term relationship, this kind of thing shows up. It means that your faith in the relationship is not shaken when something goes wrong because you've demonstrated the ability to repair it, to come back out of it and to work through it. 

[00:14:09] Paul: And you probably learn stuff about yourselves and how you work together in the process. So it's worth doing well because it really does help you work to continue to work together even more effectively in the long term. 

[00:14:22] Karen: Yeah. And I like your frame that the thing you're trying to do in rebuilding trust is to pay attention to what the other person might need. So we're not thinking about what's fair, we're not thinking about what's conventional or normal or usual or appropriate even. We're thinking about what is that other person or other party, which may be a group, whatever it is, what are they gonna need to feel good again? And it's especially tricky because there's decent odds that A, they don't know and B, they wouldn't tell you. Because they don't wanna seem needy, they don't wanna seem demanding, they don't wanna dwell in this untrust, but they are living with it until it's really repaired. And so you can't rely on them to show up and say, this is the thing that I need.

[00:15:05] Karen: Now, if you're on the other side of it and you know what you need, please tell them that's a good idea. I'm not giving you a pass on that. But, but looking at it from the perspective of I know I made a mistake. I did something I shouldn't do. If I want to repair it, I got to think about where they are. And I got to kind of make some guesses about that because they probably aren't going to tell me. And you know, it's, and it is possible to say it seems like.

[00:15:27] Karen: It would work better if I gave you daily updates for a while. Would you feel good about that? Okay, we'll do that. Like you can make some offers, but I just want to be cautious about assuming that, well, I could give you daily updates, but you probably don't need that, right? You're not going to get the right answer, right? Like you really want to be on the side of more and offering more and doing more and especially more communication so that they feel that because we don't tend to ask for it. 

[00:15:54] Karen: And they may not even know that trust is their problem. They may be annoyed and grumpy and angry and lots of other things and not realize that trust is the issue. It's not a thing that gets talked about a lot. So just know that your awareness that there's a trust piece in here is kind of on you often. And that doesn't mean it isn't there. 

[00:16:13] Paul: Yeah, that particular strategy of making the guess, making the offer, I think is quite useful. And a good litmus test there is,they should be the ones to ask for less, right? To say, actually, you don't need to do that, right? It shouldn't be you who's doing that. All right, let them ratchet it back. You can over-offer, because yeah, often, they probably don't know what they need, because they're, you know, we're all emotionally reactive in this space for different reasons, right? If we actually care about working together, then I'm, I'm worked up because I've done this thing and I've caused this harm that I didn't intend to. And so I can be in that space of shame. 

[00:16:57] Paul: And they can be in the sense of betrayal, of frustration, of whatever the, you know, of this harm, you know, causing whatever other emotionality is around it. So it's like, that's also part of the read is recognizing like, where is the other person or the other party. In terms of their ability to be self-aware of these things, and or to be worked up about it, and to not be in touch with any of that as well. 

[00:17:24] Paul: So I think that's a, and ideally you'll then see that shift over time, right? That as you're rebuilding the trust, you'll see the reactivity go down. You'll, that, you know, but you, you never want to assume you want to be checking in, you know, sort of around that.

[00:17:39] Karen: Yeah. And I do want to just say like, we're painting this rosy picture of if you over communicate and if you do all these things that trust will be rebuilt. And we hope so. We think it's likely. And if everybody wants the relationship to work and there's a reasonable level of maturity on the other side and so on and so forth, it should work. And it's possible that it doesn't. 

[00:18:00] Karen: And I just want to say that out loud that you can do everything you know how to do. You could do everything we've advised, you can do everything right, so to speak. And the other party is hurt or under pressure somewhere else, or they're just a grudgeholder by nature and they're never going to let go of it. Like that exists in the world and we try to make there be less of that in the world. That might be one of the reasons we have a podcast like this is in hopes of making there be less of that in the world. 

[00:18:24] Karen: But in fact, I just want to name as we're telling you this rosy picture that there is the other side. And then you have to think about, okay, we don't have trust in this relationship. Am I willing to stay in the relationship with that? broken trust in play, like, are the benefits of the relationship worth it to me that I'm going to have to keep over communicating forever, or I'm going to have to keep doing extra things to reassure them that I don't want to do. 

[00:18:51] Karen: I start from the premise that I probably will have to do more of that than I would really like to or that is convenient or even maybe then seems fair. But there can be a point at which, you know, I'm, it's not worth it to me. If I have to keep doing this, I don't want this relationship and I'm willing to let it go. 

[00:19:06] Karen: And only you can decide where that point is for you. But I don't want you to walk away from this thinking that if you get to that point, it means you couldn't possibly have done it right. 

[00:19:19] Paul: Is it a theme that showed up for us in the last half year or so on the show has been this idea that you can do all of these things perfectly well and still it doesn't fix everything. It doesn't help. Like there is no guarantee that if you do things exactly right, that you'll get the result that you want. And you need to be aware with that. But at the same time going, all right, how can I do better than maybe I'm doing right now? 

[00:19:41] Karen: Absolutely. So to wrap up where we've been, we started in the position of, I've made a mistake, I have broken trust with someone. What do I do? And the first thing is, name it, claim it, and repair the actual harm. Like offer whatever compensation or support or help or fix that you can for the harm that was done. And probably there's some pain associated with doing that. 

[00:20:06] Karen: And that's part of the deal. And so do that, do it quickly and do it with a ton of communication, which is the other piece that sort of is the ongoing. And this is this concept that trust is a substitute for communication. So when you don't have trust, throw a whole lot of communication at it. It's hard to communicate too much in that situation. And if you don't have anything to say that's substantial, then say what you've got.

[00:20:30] Karen: I'm still waiting for an answer I've sent three emails or I have this meeting scheduled and I'm not gonna know anymore until we meet on this date and then I'll report. But all of that detailed communication stuff, do that for as long as the other party needs it. And the way that you know that they don't need it anymore is because they say so. So you wanna offer the things that you think might be repairs. 

[00:20:52] Karen: You wanna offer sort of accountability things and you wanna have as many opportunities as you can to say, I'm gonna do a thing and then do that. Make the promise and then keep it. And that will feel like it's a lot. It'll feel way more than what you would normally expect in the course of your business. And that's because it is. 

[00:21:10] Karen: That's because that's what it takes to rebuild the trust to hopefully get to that point where you won't need to do that anymore. And if at some point you've been doing all of this and it just doesn't seem to be getting better, there does come a point at which you say to yourself. 

[00:21:25] Karen: Apparently this is the new reality of this relationship and I can't repair it to the extent that I'd like to. Is it still worth being in this relationship knowing that? And that can be its own tough conversation, but worth having. 

[00:21:38] Karen: And one way or another, if you can feel good that you've done what you can to repair the relationship, we think you'll end up in a better place as a result of it. 

[00:21:45] Paul: Well, that's gonna do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis. 

[00:21:48] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig. And this has been Employing Differences.